As long as Deathwatch are out of bottom 3, even by a hair, I'll still have hope for them to be viable haha. Even if they slip into bottom 3 I'm gonna be keeping em going because hey it's my thing at this point.
Kudos to you. I plan to build and play some DW myself as well. Don't care if they're S or F tier, I plan to play my butt off and go as hard as I can with them no matter what :D
Just watching this to get a feel for all the teams etc... Great video good opinions and knowledge, keep up the great work.... Beautiful moment around 10:45 where your discussing kroot never getting a new team ... ;-) clearly GW were watching.
Thanks a lot for all your content! I'm totally new to KT, your videos help me out a lot! Still struggling to find good loadouts for the main ones I'd like to play, but it feels like every faction in KT is interesting.
I would argue that Warpcoven is closer to S Tier in general. But they have a very high skill / knowledge requirement. They have so many tools that choosing the right ones for the match up is key.
I think that’s fair, a few Warpcoven players managed to make it to the Top 8 at LVO. They’re still relatively new so I think most players are just getting a handle on them.
Even as a Deathwatch player, I think its right and good that the "bespoke" teams are more powerful than compendium teams. That said, really hoping for a balance update (or the white dwarf treatment) that makes the team a little more bearable to play. I count myself lucky that most folks locally seem to be running compendium teams but its still a little rough out there.
@@GundamReviver I think that goes part of the way. An extra model and an extra wound I think plants them firmly as a "strong compendium team". But I'm also jealous of all the fancy special rules and equipment other teams get and I'd like some of that too. So while I think they desperately need one more wound a piece, I'd actually be happy to carry on with 5 models if, like, they let transhuman be used on non-primaris marines and gave us, for example, cool deathwatch only grenades? With maybe an 8 inch range (why can a lowly guardsman huck a grenade as far as a super human primaris?) with some neat profiles. I'd love to see more "control" factions that do things like remove APL and movement from the other team. And I think Deathwatch (and reivers!) would be well suited for that. Here's a stun grenade and a tanglefoot-style grenade and smoke grenades and flashbangs that worsen ballistic skill, etc etc etc. Just spitballin. But yea, another dude works real well as a stop gap.
I basically am just diving into Kill Team and I absolutely love the diversity of potential factions compared to 40k. Definitely the more interesting way to enjoy the 40k lore and models for me.
I think that custom-made teams being much better and no rules update for the generic ones suits GW - you have to buy that box if you want to be competitive.
I really wish the didn't, MOSTLY the compendium stuff is ballanced to each other quite nicely (or close enough) except marines who need one extra body or like two extra rounds each.
I hate to be negative, but I must say, I do quite dislike the constant power creeping going on in the new killteam. The phrase at 19:20 summarizes that pretty nicely: worst bespoke team - High B tier. I was really hoping that Killteam was not going to turn into this constant flavour of them month thing that 40k is, but hey, thats probably just me. Other than that depressing note really good video! I agree with most of them. I dont think that pathfinders thing is a hot take, its as you said, anyone who faced a good player would know how oppressive they are, but because they are hard to play right, people just dont realise. PS: I dont have a question for anyone reading this: How do you feel about the fact that most bespoke teams dont have to worry about roster building? They can just put everything they have onto the list without a second thought. I personally really enjoyed the roster building aspect, and still enjoy it on teams that it still exists on, but its dumbing down and subsequent phasing out has left me kinda pensive.
I don’t play tournaments, so I don’t build rosters. I just build a target team and play against my bud, then I’d rather build another team than create a full roster. So to me rosters are not even a thing.
Personally I'm a bigger fan of the bespoke team rosters. I'd rather my kill team have the tools to win if I decide to take them rather than be forced to skew. Also even with the bespoke teams being better than compendium, they're not that far off from each other.
@@CommandPoint finally getting into the game after being a lore fan for years and I was so excited when I found out Kroot weren’t complete garbage anymore. Just waiting for an order to come in and then I’m unleashing the chicken predators
Same. I built a KT of them thanks to your video and because I had some spare guys lying around for my 1k army I'm working on building. Was a great decision to build, and they're fun as all heck :D
I think the best way to fix AWC would firstly make it so it can’t activate unless you loose initiative (this stops the 4activation chain. Second get rid of being able to use it with in 2 of a objectives. So AWC can only be used when a Tau model is 3 inches from a enemy model. This makes the chain not work as well because you will have to risk the drone controller model to be close to the enemy. This also forces more aggressive plays. Lastly the markerlights. They can’t use marker-lights on obscured unless it’s the Transpectral Interference Pathfinder. This forces them to move around the board getting better angles.
The easy fix would be an extra body, but looking at Traitor Marines, it wouldn't do nearly enough to push them into high tier territory. The GW devs will have to get a bit creative to get some of these elite teams in a position to really compete with some of the current bespoke factions being released. We're definitely excited to see what's on the way!
Marines should be more mix and match, make all non gravis fire teams of 3 and Heavy Intercessors fire team of 2, give HI's APL3 because there's zero reason for them not to have it. Then you can have more variation in your KT and be more adaptable. Also Marine KTs right now are so dull
Very accurate tier list imo. Only thing that jumped to me was Dark Eldar being the worst of B tier? I mean they wipe the floor with CSM and have very good matchups into many of the teams above them. I think they deserved to be just below Hunter Clade but that's an extremely small nitpick overall.
I feel like you guys should do a Tear list for the Space marine fire teams Cause I feel like there's a lot of variety that you guys kind of glazed over
Great job as always! Maybe you could try to present a tier list for more casual play too? I know it might have too many factors to calculate but it's just an idea
I mean you could easily do this yourself by just watching this video and crossing out all the high tier factions that they say are hard to play. Then pick something b tier or higher to play and you can be confident it won’t suck, even if you aren’t good at the game yet. While some of the bottom tier armies might be even easier for new players, you won’t stay a total newbie for long, so you’ll outclass the newb-friendliest bottom tier armies pretty quickly.
For a Militarum/GSC player who's relatively new to killteam, why just rank scions, are normal imp guard infantry just so bad that they aren't considered as a valid fireteam option?
Scions just do everything that guard does, but better. They have the superior weapons, superior toughness, have a FREE order thanks to their Tempestor prime, can relay orders anywhere on the map, can increase their APL thanks to communications... Meanwhile guards needs to be close to their commander to get orders, they need to relay said orders, have weaker weapons and saves for just a few extra bodies. They also do not combo at all with Scions and their orders. Not worth it.
Quick question on daemons: if you have pink horrors and plan on splitting, do you have to include the blue horrors in your roster? Or is it kind of implied that you can bring in any number of blue horrors that you could pay for split? I've got my bloodletters all painted up and halfway done with my pink horrors. Looking forward to fielding them and trying them out. Daemonettes are still in the box. Unfortunately I don't have any plaguebearers yet.
so what I've learned from this in general is that the standard Compendium (with a few exceptions) are nowhere near as good as the supplemental teams. Joy oh joy, good things this game isn't pay to win or anything ( /s). In all seriousness, great video. I actually got into Scions at the start of this edition of KT, and I am pretty OK with your assessment of them. Squish bodies, but great firepower and utility thanks to orders being across the killing zone, same with the comm's officer abilities. All good stuff, and a great pilot can do nasty stuff with them :)
Kind of lazy with talking about the marines, boys. The tac marine fireteam is head and shoulders better than any of the other options available. I'm firmly of the opinion that tactical marines are a B tier option. I brought this up in another Command Point video, but; sergeant with plasma pistol, power weapon, purity seal > heavy gunner with heavy bolter and suspensor system > Gunner with Plasma gun and purity seal Seriously, use bolter discipline every round for your heavy bolter and bolters to shoot twice ontop of the plasma guns having a free re roll to give AP-2 in the first couple turns of shooting , it really isn't a bad team. Some useful tactics as well as having a decent 6 body count of 3 APL
Thanks for watching, Spencer! At the end of the day, the Tac Marine fire team is unfortunately a much worse version of the Traitor Space Marine fire team. Same idea but with worse bodies, less neat ploys, worse equipment options. Hopefully marines get a bespoke team soon!
@@CommandPoint Me and the boys are hoping each of the non-codex compliant legions get their own bespoke team and then GW can slowly give the Ultramarines, Imperial fists etc their own
I’m a big fan of the Tacticals myself, I’m crossing my fingers for a good bespoke option for the Firstborn Marines. Like mixing in some Assault Marines for example and some better ploys. I do ultimately agree with Spencer tho, people definitely sleep on Tacticals, maybe not B Tier, but definitely head and shoulders above the rest of the Marines.
You underrate marines a lot. And by marines I presume Scouts. They are much better than Deathwatch and all D tier as well as almost all C factions. The've got 10 bodies with highly reliable weapons which hit on 2+. Both Sniper rifles and Shotguns deal great damage. With the option of 2 Missile launchers and Only in Death the also have ways to deal with elite teams.
Necrons are in no way D tier. They can just ignore the movement with 1CP but have 8 mini plasma guns, who cares if theyre slow if you just shoot everything off the board. People are sleeping on that.
Well, time for a new one now pathfinders got nuked with their no more 4 activations in a row bullshit gone and most marines teams getting one extra operative :P
I can't think of a reason-other than profit motives-for GW to have not improved Adeptus Astartes since KT '21 came out. They are terrible. Meme-tier awful. I play Heavy Intercessors just for fun sometimes, and they are so bad that even with incredibly lucky rolls, I always lose. Often by half the VP or worse. They are an extreme example that should have been FAQ'd the first month, but even Intercessors are terrible, and they are probably the best of the Primaris options. I'm continually amazed that updates keep dropping with no mention of fixing Marines.
As long as Deathwatch are out of bottom 3, even by a hair, I'll still have hope for them to be viable haha. Even if they slip into bottom 3 I'm gonna be keeping em going because hey it's my thing at this point.
You are a true champion
Same, same
@@CommandPoint I do what I can 😅
Kudos to you. I plan to build and play some DW myself as well. Don't care if they're S or F tier, I plan to play my butt off and go as hard as I can with them no matter what :D
I can't imagine a Deathwatch Kill Team bespoke team coming out and pushing our best of the best into some nice power.
Just watching this to get a feel for all the teams etc... Great video good opinions and knowledge, keep up the great work....
Beautiful moment around 10:45 where your discussing kroot never getting a new team ... ;-) clearly GW were watching.
Thanks a lot for all your content! I'm totally new to KT, your videos help me out a lot!
Still struggling to find good loadouts for the main ones I'd like to play, but it feels like every faction in KT is interesting.
Thank you for watching, that’s good to hear!
I would argue that Warpcoven is closer to S Tier in general. But they have a very high skill / knowledge requirement. They have so many tools that choosing the right ones for the match up is key.
I think that’s fair, a few Warpcoven players managed to make it to the Top 8 at LVO. They’re still relatively new so I think most players are just getting a handle on them.
Even as a Deathwatch player, I think its right and good that the "bespoke" teams are more powerful than compendium teams. That said, really hoping for a balance update (or the white dwarf treatment) that makes the team a little more bearable to play. I count myself lucky that most folks locally seem to be running compendium teams but its still a little rough out there.
I hear a lot of people just giving marine players one extra marine. Seems to mostly fix it.
@@GundamReviver I think that goes part of the way. An extra model and an extra wound I think plants them firmly as a "strong compendium team". But I'm also jealous of all the fancy special rules and equipment other teams get and I'd like some of that too. So while I think they desperately need one more wound a piece, I'd actually be happy to carry on with 5 models if, like, they let transhuman be used on non-primaris marines and gave us, for example, cool deathwatch only grenades? With maybe an 8 inch range (why can a lowly guardsman huck a grenade as far as a super human primaris?) with some neat profiles. I'd love to see more "control" factions that do things like remove APL and movement from the other team. And I think Deathwatch (and reivers!) would be well suited for that. Here's a stun grenade and a tanglefoot-style grenade and smoke grenades and flashbangs that worsen ballistic skill, etc etc etc.
Just spitballin. But yea, another dude works real well as a stop gap.
@@GundamReviver and here we are that being official xD
@@vanJJTB yep! Good timing for me too because I was just building a team lol.
Genuine question: why should the bespoke teams be better? Shouldn’t the goal be for all the playable teams to be as closed to balanced as possible?
I basically am just diving into Kill Team and I absolutely love the diversity of potential factions compared to 40k. Definitely the more interesting way to enjoy the 40k lore and models for me.
Not only does Kill Team have a lot of factions, but a lot of them are pretty good!
I think that custom-made teams being much better and no rules update for the generic ones suits GW - you have to buy that box if you want to be competitive.
I really wish the didn't, MOSTLY the compendium stuff is ballanced to each other quite nicely (or close enough) except marines who need one extra body or like two extra rounds each.
Well they have to, people with big armies wouldn't buy anything if that was the case. They need the 40K players to be invested as well.
I hate to be negative, but I must say, I do quite dislike the constant power creeping going on in the new killteam. The phrase at 19:20 summarizes that pretty nicely: worst bespoke team - High B tier. I was really hoping that Killteam was not going to turn into this constant flavour of them month thing that 40k is, but hey, thats probably just me.
Other than that depressing note really good video! I agree with most of them. I dont think that pathfinders thing is a hot take, its as you said, anyone who faced a good player would know how oppressive they are, but because they are hard to play right, people just dont realise.
PS: I dont have a question for anyone reading this: How do you feel about the fact that most bespoke teams dont have to worry about roster building? They can just put everything they have onto the list without a second thought. I personally really enjoyed the roster building aspect, and still enjoy it on teams that it still exists on, but its dumbing down and subsequent phasing out has left me kinda pensive.
I don’t play tournaments, so I don’t build rosters. I just build a target team and play against my bud, then I’d rather build another team than create a full roster. So to me rosters are not even a thing.
Personally I'm a bigger fan of the bespoke team rosters. I'd rather my kill team have the tools to win if I decide to take them rather than be forced to skew.
Also even with the bespoke teams being better than compendium, they're not that far off from each other.
Kroot being better than marines slays me. I love this so much! Shame I don't have the game yet though lol!
Kroot players, rise up!
@@CommandPoint finally getting into the game after being a lore fan for years and I was so excited when I found out Kroot weren’t complete garbage anymore. Just waiting for an order to come in and then I’m unleashing the chicken predators
Not just better, two tiers better!
Murder-chickens ftw
Glad to see Scions get the recognition they deserve ✊ 😆
For the Emprah
Same. I built a KT of them thanks to your video and because I had some spare guys lying around for my 1k army I'm working on building. Was a great decision to build, and they're fun as all heck :D
Kroot are really cool with their Skinning Blades and the ability to change up their activation through a ploy.
New tier list vidéo needed huhu
I think the best way to fix AWC would firstly make it so it can’t activate unless you loose initiative (this stops the 4activation chain. Second get rid of being able to use it with in 2 of a objectives. So AWC can only be used when a Tau model is 3 inches from a enemy model. This makes the chain not work as well because you will have to risk the drone controller model to be close to the enemy. This also forces more aggressive plays.
Lastly the markerlights. They can’t use marker-lights on obscured unless it’s the Transpectral Interference Pathfinder. This forces them to move around the board getting better angles.
What changes would you make to marines to make them more competitive?
The easy fix would be an extra body, but looking at Traitor Marines, it wouldn't do nearly enough to push them into high tier territory. The GW devs will have to get a bit creative to get some of these elite teams in a position to really compete with some of the current bespoke factions being released.
We're definitely excited to see what's on the way!
Just roll well lol it's that easy ;)
Marines should be more mix and match, make all non gravis fire teams of 3 and Heavy Intercessors fire team of 2, give HI's APL3 because there's zero reason for them not to have it. Then you can have more variation in your KT and be more adaptable. Also Marine KTs right now are so dull
@@CommandPoint i def want to see how they "fix" elites
Pref without adding chaff units if possible
One extra body OR two extra rounds OR always allowed to shoot twice.
Very accurate tier list imo. Only thing that jumped to me was Dark Eldar being the worst of B tier? I mean they wipe the floor with CSM and have very good matchups into many of the teams above them. I think they deserved to be just below Hunter Clade but that's an extremely small nitpick overall.
I feel like you guys should do a Tear list for the Space marine fire teams Cause I feel like there's a lot of variety that you guys kind of glazed over
Great job as always! Maybe you could try to present a tier list for more casual play too? I know it might have too many factors to calculate but it's just an idea
I mean you could easily do this yourself by just watching this video and crossing out all the high tier factions that they say are hard to play. Then pick something b tier or higher to play and you can be confident it won’t suck, even if you aren’t good at the game yet. While some of the bottom tier armies might be even easier for new players, you won’t stay a total newbie for long, so you’ll outclass the newb-friendliest bottom tier armies pretty quickly.
A gosh darn tier list? Well I never!
Answer to power creep? S plus.. PLUS tier!
wait a minute. Dakka Dash + Dyanamite was Faqed?
For a Militarum/GSC player who's relatively new to killteam, why just rank scions, are normal imp guard infantry just so bad that they aren't considered as a valid fireteam option?
Scions just do everything that guard does, but better.
They have the superior weapons, superior toughness, have a FREE order thanks to their Tempestor prime, can relay orders anywhere on the map, can increase their APL thanks to communications...
Meanwhile guards needs to be close to their commander to get orders, they need to relay said orders, have weaker weapons and saves for just a few extra bodies.
They also do not combo at all with Scions and their orders. Not worth it.
We get it, you just learned the word bespoke.
Quick question on daemons: if you have pink horrors and plan on splitting, do you have to include the blue horrors in your roster? Or is it kind of implied that you can bring in any number of blue horrors that you could pay for split? I've got my bloodletters all painted up and halfway done with my pink horrors. Looking forward to fielding them and trying them out. Daemonettes are still in the box. Unfortunately I don't have any plaguebearers yet.
Wahapedia says you can only bring 2 fireteams of daemons
so what I've learned from this in general is that the standard Compendium (with a few exceptions) are nowhere near as good as the supplemental teams. Joy oh joy, good things this game isn't pay to win or anything ( /s).
In all seriousness, great video. I actually got into Scions at the start of this edition of KT, and I am pretty OK with your assessment of them. Squish bodies, but great firepower and utility thanks to orders being across the killing zone, same with the comm's officer abilities. All good stuff, and a great pilot can do nasty stuff with them :)
This video is very bespoke.
Lol
это ты по фракция или по юнитам разложил ?
Kind of lazy with talking about the marines, boys. The tac marine fireteam is head and shoulders better than any of the other options available. I'm firmly of the opinion that tactical marines are a B tier option. I brought this up in another Command Point video, but; sergeant with plasma pistol, power weapon, purity seal > heavy gunner with heavy bolter and suspensor system > Gunner with Plasma gun and purity seal
Seriously, use bolter discipline every round for your heavy bolter and bolters to shoot twice ontop of the plasma guns having a free re roll to give AP-2 in the first couple turns of shooting , it really isn't a bad team. Some useful tactics as well as having a decent 6 body count of 3 APL
Thanks for watching, Spencer!
At the end of the day, the Tac Marine fire team is unfortunately a much worse version of the Traitor Space Marine fire team. Same idea but with worse bodies, less neat ploys, worse equipment options. Hopefully marines get a bespoke team soon!
@@CommandPoint Me and the boys are hoping each of the non-codex compliant legions get their own bespoke team and then GW can slowly give the Ultramarines, Imperial fists etc their own
I’m a big fan of the Tacticals myself, I’m crossing my fingers for a good bespoke option for the Firstborn Marines. Like mixing in some Assault Marines for example and some better ploys.
I do ultimately agree with Spencer tho, people definitely sleep on Tacticals, maybe not B Tier, but definitely head and shoulders above the rest of the Marines.
After moving from kommandos to wyrmblade it feels like kommandos are a bit meh now
We’re both feeling the same way. Still good, it’s just Wyrmblade are looking SO good
No regular guard?
They're packaged with Scions.
You underrate marines a lot. And by marines I presume Scouts. They are much better than Deathwatch and all D tier as well as almost all C factions. The've got 10 bodies with highly reliable weapons which hit on 2+. Both Sniper rifles and Shotguns deal great damage. With the option of 2 Missile launchers and Only in Death the also have ways to deal with elite teams.
I always forget about Scouts, they’re so vastly different from the other Marines. Conservatively I’d place them at C Tier.
A pdf or excel sheet of that would be nice
Necrons are in no way D tier. They can just ignore the movement with 1CP but have 8 mini plasma guns, who cares if theyre slow if you just shoot everything off the board. People are sleeping on that.
Necrons 😓
*sad robot noises*
I went 3-0 with them this weekend at a tournament against vet guards, heretic chaos, and 1k sons. It's not all doom and gloom
@@mozark1043 I'd wager I played you as Traitor Marines and yea, Necrons are scary. That shooting deletes things.
Well, time for a new one now pathfinders got nuked with their no more 4 activations in a row bullshit gone and most marines teams getting one extra operative :P
I can't think of a reason-other than profit motives-for GW to have not improved Adeptus Astartes since KT '21 came out. They are terrible. Meme-tier awful. I play Heavy Intercessors just for fun sometimes, and they are so bad that even with incredibly lucky rolls, I always lose. Often by half the VP or worse. They are an extreme example that should have been FAQ'd the first month, but even Intercessors are terrible, and they are probably the best of the Primaris options. I'm continually amazed that updates keep dropping with no mention of fixing Marines.
Hey, what's the source of that tier list? Is that your opinion or does that came from some events and tournament?
It’s our opinions. We take tournament results into consideration.
I think Death Guard's Contagion only applies to movement not WS/BS
Warp Coven an A? Any authority you had on the subject gone.
Lol
Kroot are the only S+ tier. Scrubs.