The thing i find most fascinating about Go is that about 80% of the moves i see even from high level professionals make perfect sense to me and seem obvious after they play it, but i can only see about 20% of them in advance. Interesting how Go produces the obvious out of impenetrable complexity. It's the same beauty one might see when looking at the simple rules behind snowflakes, or the arrangement of petals and leaves and sunflower seeds.
The sad thing, is that most of the pro's moves are actually bad when compared to an ai like katago. Even the best pro's can not face katago without having a two stone handicap or higher, and these old pros from hundreds of years ago would probably need 4 a stones handicap to be able to compete with katago.
I’m very new to the game, and do not yet have the understanding to fully appreciate the game these two played. That said it was wonderfully relaxing to watch and listen along as it played out.
Thank you, Michael. I am the wrong person to review games by masters, but I sensed...fear? From Santetsu - it felt as though he shied away from fights, particularly during the early middle game. Later on, he started trying to catch up, but by then it was too late. Probably just him reading deeper than me and seeing how fruitless those fights would have been...
Damn. A wall that went to nowhere. It wasn't meant to make territory, it was meant to refute all center potential, and god damn if that left side dragon didn't! It felt like Dosaku was in the lead the entire game after getting the 3 corners while being conscious of the middle potential.
As the shinfuseki era is already some 90 years in the past, it could be also phrased that Yasui Santetsu was playing a retro-modern opening ahead of his time :D
I like the way that in the beginning the winning position is constantly shifting from black to white and back again. Each move is winning if the opponent does not respond in the right way.
There is a killing calmness to this game, so different from the current butchering by the top pro’s and AI. No frills, no obvious errors to my amateur eyes, so how Dosaku managed to win with 9 points without komi is beyond me. Was it the opening?
The game was actually fairly close until the running fight. While Dosaku is mostly known for his modernizing of opening theory, he was also razor sharp in tactical positions.
it literally was a review, ha ha, i forgot to mention commentary. thanks for the review anyway, it was nice and meditative. maybe some other time invincible susaku game with commentary. it would be fun even without AI inputs. thanks again.
I enjoyed this tremendously. Excellent presentation format, no commentary. I am not a good enough player to tell if some of the longer pauses were included for dramatic effect (where will the master play?) or you were just checking your notes.
i felt like a few of the pauses were to give the observers time to appreciate how cool some of the special moves were. Some also seemed to allow us time to think about the next move edit: that being said, could be checking notes coincidentally, though i highly doubt he needs to
Thank you Michael. I do enjoy these videos very much, they have a meditative quality which I did not expect. A suggestion for a future game with commentary. After the 2016 AlphaGo Lee Sedol match I was looking for more of your commentary online and the only thing I could find was a lecture on the first game of the Kamakura jubango recorded in summer of 2014. I think revisiting that game now and equipped with AI would be interesting. Link to video of the 2014 lecture: ua-cam.com/video/W7jafaggju4/v-deo.html
Thanks! Just subscribe to my channel Michael Redmond's Go TV and I will continue adding videos, longer videos twice a week and shorter Go problems on other days. I do have ideas for commentary on classic games, right now I am stretching to physically keep up with my ideas and learning how to use the platform.
@@MichaelRedmondsGoTV Thanks for responding to my comment both here and in an earlier video! I am already a subscriber to your channel and I look forward to your future videos.
So many excellent things here. For one the curated choice so far is great (Go Seigen-Kitanu and this one). I think it pairs really interestingly to the moment in go history that's happening in the current day. Regardless of stylistic things (like playing on the third line), it's really great to see Dosaku's handling of shape in fights (similar to how Go Seigen was visionary in that regard). I think this type of game is even more exciting considering it was one of the highest pressure settings (castle games). The slapping sound I love (as an amateur), because as much as it is fun to study books and sgf files, it's easy to forget that human beings made these moves, and that these moves had sounds, feelings, and expression built in.... which is why I like watching NHK even without subtitles because it's refreshing to see how pros react differently to difficult scenarios (like how Cho Chikun always seems like he's in a bind, but plays brilliantly, or the steadiness of someone like Hane Naoki or Kobayashi Satoru). Thanks so much for the videos
Go is fundamentally different from chess as the objective is not to destroy the opponent but to obtain more estate. The mindset is live and let live, while in chess it is kill kill kill.
Thanks a lot for this great game and relaxing sounds. Sorry for the DDK beginner question but at 18:07 it seems to me that they are playing dame moves before more valuable moves like creating two eyes in the bottom or take more territory on the left. Maybe these are not dame moves but a reduction of liberties in a fight which I don't have the ability to understand. Is this something else, some kind of courtesy? Could you clarify this part please? Thanks a lot!
All these dame-like moves involve Black's eyes and Black trying to set up a placement at 2-5 on the left. At 17:57 White took away Black's potential eye on the outside forcing Black to add a stone to live. Twice Black threatened to make an eye and filled some of White's liberties before living on the bottom. While filling these dame points, Black was looking to set up a combination with Black 1-9, next Black 1-8 and the placement, which threat was removed when White connected on the 1st line.
It didn't look to me much as though the Tengen opening did much for black apart from making the moyo slightly more secure. That said that, playing 13x13, I think tengen is much better. I have found myself loosing despite gaining a lot of corner and some side territory because my opponent played tengen in his first few moves - makes it really hard to form valuable groups from the outside.
After black plays at 8x7, doesn't the tengen make the black pushthrough at 8x8 playable? I was waiting for that move the whole game and it never came. It seems like it would cut off the white group on the left.
You can see the power in every one of the honninbo's moves. I can tell he had a lot of fun with this game. First his opponent plays an opening that is super unconventional for the age. So he in turn decides to have some fun with his 5-3 points. He also has so much power in his stones. One of his greatest strengths (something he shares with go seigen) is his ability to attack from a very solid position. He rarely lost because he was so good at this. I feel it's a trait he, go seigen, shusaku, and Sansa all had in common.
Dosaku used 5-3 points a lot to great effect. i would almost call using them (effectively) the Dosaku opening just because he did it in so many dozens of his games regardless of whether the opponent had a strange opening or not.
Idk. So many. We need to head to the afterlife and see a tournament of the greats. Shusaku, Dosaku, Go Seigen, Lee Sedol, etc. All throughout history. Hook me up with that manga!
Some people would say that Dosaku was the strongest player in Go history, including the present human players. He became Meijin a few years after this game so that equals 9-dan pro, and Santetsu became 7-dan at the same time. At the time of this game they were 1 or 2 ranks below that. Dosaku has informally been called 13-dan strength!
@@Funaru unless he's someone who just loves to slam and breaks conventions. I'm not a big follower of conventions myself. Do you always follow what others do? I think your assumption is reasonable, however, it's still just that; an assumption
Thanks for the feedback. Some people like the sound, but I can understand if you don't. In this video the soundtrack is just for the pleasure of the viewer, so i will have no issues with the idea that you might want to mute or adjust the sound.
The thing i find most fascinating about Go is that about 80% of the moves i see even from high level professionals make perfect sense to me and seem obvious after they play it, but i can only see about 20% of them in advance. Interesting how Go produces the obvious out of impenetrable complexity. It's the same beauty one might see when looking at the simple rules behind snowflakes, or the arrangement of petals and leaves and sunflower seeds.
The sad thing, is that most of the pro's moves are actually bad when compared to an ai like katago.
Even the best pro's can not face katago without having a two stone handicap or higher, and these old pros from hundreds of years ago would probably need 4 a stones handicap to be able to compete with katago.
@@undertyped1 I don't think that's sad. It just shows how complex and deep the game is and how much we still have to learn about it.
I’m very new to the game, and do not yet have the understanding to fully appreciate the game these two played. That said it was wonderfully relaxing to watch and listen along as it played out.
Old games are incredibly inspiring, thank you so much for taking time to make this video.
Thanks, Michael, very nice to watch this.
As always Master Redmond. Superb. Thank you, for replaying the game one more time. Just like that silent, wooden, perfect....
Watching openings from the past feels strange!
Nice way to review a game. Thanks Michael!
Thank you Michael! Thank you for reminding us these beautiful games.
This is extremely satisfying to watch and listen to. Cool video!
dosaku games always give me feelings inside! what a master!!!
Thank you, Michael. I am the wrong person to review games by masters, but I sensed...fear? From Santetsu - it felt as though he shied away from fights, particularly during the early middle game. Later on, he started trying to catch up, but by then it was too late. Probably just him reading deeper than me and seeing how fruitless those fights would have been...
Damn. A wall that went to nowhere. It wasn't meant to make territory, it was meant to refute all center potential, and god damn if that left side dragon didn't! It felt like Dosaku was in the lead the entire game after getting the 3 corners while being conscious of the middle potential.
As the shinfuseki era is already some 90 years in the past, it could be also phrased that Yasui Santetsu was playing a retro-modern opening ahead of his time :D
Thank u so much .... awesome game ... please more ! ;-)
Really liked that video format :)
Aaahhh this video is guides me. Thanks Micheael!
I like the way that in the beginning the winning position is constantly shifting from black to white and back again. Each move is winning if the opponent does not respond in the right way.
Great video!
There is a killing calmness to this game, so different from the current butchering by the top pro’s and AI. No frills, no obvious errors to my amateur eyes, so how Dosaku managed to win with 9 points without komi is beyond me. Was it the opening?
The game was actually fairly close until the running fight. While Dosaku is mostly known for his modernizing of opening theory, he was also razor sharp in tactical positions.
it literally was a review, ha ha, i forgot to mention commentary. thanks for the review anyway, it was nice and meditative. maybe some other time invincible susaku game with commentary. it would be fun even without AI inputs. thanks again.
I like Shusaku as well
I enjoyed this tremendously. Excellent presentation format, no commentary. I am not a good enough player to tell if some of the longer pauses were included for dramatic effect (where will the master play?) or you were just checking your notes.
i felt like a few of the pauses were to give the observers time to appreciate how cool some of the special moves were. Some also seemed to allow us time to think about the next move
edit: that being said, could be checking notes coincidentally, though i highly doubt he needs to
Very plaisant, thank you.
There is a film about Yasui Santetsu and his astronomy work, I think I recall a scene where he plays tengen against Dosaku.
Thats how you do it!
Slap that board babe, slap it like the piece of wood it is.
Thank you Michael. I do enjoy these videos very much, they have a meditative quality which I did not expect.
A suggestion for a future game with commentary. After the 2016 AlphaGo Lee Sedol match I was looking for more of your commentary online and the only thing I could find was a lecture on the first game of the Kamakura jubango recorded in summer of 2014. I think revisiting that game now and equipped with AI would be interesting.
Link to video of the 2014 lecture: ua-cam.com/video/W7jafaggju4/v-deo.html
Thanks! Just subscribe to my channel Michael Redmond's Go TV and I will continue adding videos, longer videos twice a week and shorter Go problems on other days. I do have ideas for commentary on classic games, right now I am stretching to physically keep up with my ideas and learning how to use the platform.
@@MichaelRedmondsGoTV Thanks for responding to my comment both here and in an earlier video! I am already a subscriber to your channel and I look forward to your future videos.
@@sama477 He also is reviewing the 50 alphaGo games on USA go. Another source is his commentary on Japanese tournament games.
So many excellent things here. For one the curated choice so far is great (Go Seigen-Kitanu and this one). I think it pairs really interestingly to the moment in go history that's happening in the current day. Regardless of stylistic things (like playing on the third line), it's really great to see Dosaku's handling of shape in fights (similar to how Go Seigen was visionary in that regard). I think this type of game is even more exciting considering it was one of the highest pressure settings (castle games). The slapping sound I love (as an amateur), because as much as it is fun to study books and sgf files, it's easy to forget that human beings made these moves, and that these moves had sounds, feelings, and expression built in.... which is why I like watching NHK even without subtitles because it's refreshing to see how pros react differently to difficult scenarios (like how Cho Chikun always seems like he's in a bind, but plays brilliantly, or the steadiness of someone like Hane Naoki or Kobayashi Satoru). Thanks so much for the videos
Great video! You should do real board reviews as well!
Thank you
the legend on the legend I would say
Go is fundamentally different from chess as the objective is not to destroy the opponent but to obtain more estate. The mindset is live and let live, while in chess it is kill kill kill.
Thanks a lot for this great game and relaxing sounds. Sorry for the DDK beginner question but at 18:07 it seems to me that they are playing dame moves before more valuable moves like creating two eyes in the bottom or take more territory on the left. Maybe these are not dame moves but a reduction of liberties in a fight which I don't have the ability to understand. Is this something else, some kind of courtesy? Could you clarify this part please? Thanks a lot!
All these dame-like moves involve Black's eyes and Black trying to set up a placement at 2-5 on the left. At 17:57 White took away Black's potential eye on the outside forcing Black to add a stone to live. Twice Black threatened to make an eye and filled some of White's liberties before living on the bottom. While filling these dame points, Black was looking to set up a combination with Black 1-9, next Black 1-8 and the placement, which threat was removed when White connected on the 1st line.
@@MichaelRedmondsGoTV thank you for taking the time to answer. Now it makes perfectly sense. Thanks again.
It didn't look to me much as though the Tengen opening did much for black apart from making the moyo slightly more secure. That said that, playing 13x13, I think tengen is much better. I have found myself loosing despite gaining a lot of corner and some side territory because my opponent played tengen in his first few moves - makes it really hard to form valuable groups from the outside.
After black plays at 8x7, doesn't the tengen make the black pushthrough at 8x8 playable? I was waiting for that move the whole game and it never came. It seems like it would cut off the white group on the left.
Were there traditionally no marked starpoings?
You can see the power in every one of the honninbo's moves. I can tell he had a lot of fun with this game. First his opponent plays an opening that is super unconventional for the age. So he in turn decides to have some fun with his 5-3 points. He also has so much power in his stones. One of his greatest strengths (something he shares with go seigen) is his ability to attack from a very solid position. He rarely lost because he was so good at this. I feel it's a trait he, go seigen, shusaku, and Sansa all had in common.
Dosaku used 5-3 points a lot to great effect. i would almost call using them (effectively) the Dosaku opening just because he did it in so many dozens of his games regardless of whether the opponent had a strange opening or not.
@@taa347 same as shusaku used many 3-4 plays
I can see the turtle-neck and art degree from here.
@@SimpleDays101 that a dig at me? Well say what you will but won't make you any more or less correct
@@justin9202 more or less correct about what?
alphago plays much like dosaku. i am convinced dosaku is the strongest player to exist.
Idk. So many. We need to head to the afterlife and see a tournament of the greats. Shusaku, Dosaku, Go Seigen, Lee Sedol, etc. All throughout history. Hook me up with that manga!
2:17 LIGHT COME FORCE
So ShinFuseki Movement was actually Shin ShinFuseki movement...
What rank were they compared to modern pro player rank?
Some people would say that Dosaku was the strongest player in Go history, including the present human players. He became Meijin a few years after this game so that equals 9-dan pro, and Santetsu became 7-dan at the same time. At the time of this game they were 1 or 2 ranks below that. Dosaku has informally been called 13-dan strength!
Who won? White by 9?
Yes
ASMR go video
Blessings in the Name of Jesús. Greetings from Argentina ❤
not a big fan of the slamming of the stones. is that how it's done ?
I would a assume a 9 dan professional knows how it's done.
@@Funaru unless he's someone who just loves to slam and breaks conventions. I'm not a big follower of conventions myself. Do you always follow what others do?
I think your assumption is reasonable, however, it's still just that; an assumption
The loudness of the stone somewhat corresponds with the aggressiveness of the move, I find the emotions work well together
Thanks for the feedback. Some people like the sound, but I can understand if you don't. In this video the soundtrack is just for the pleasure of the viewer, so i will have no issues with the idea that you might want to mute or adjust the sound.
@@eydaimon you sound mad.