Is a two-state solution even possible?
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- Опубліковано 20 жов 2023
- Joe Biden recently reiterated his support for a two-state solution for Israel and Palestine.
Watch the full replay of Trita Parsi's live conversation with Reason's Zach Weissmueller and Liz Wolfe: • Can America help 'de-e...
One point I hear a lot is the idea of "traditional" Palestinian land, and this needs clarification. As far as I can find or am aware, there has NEVER been a traditional Palestinian state, empire, or homeland. Even the term "Palestinian" was simply a colloquial term used to describe the people of that region, which included Jews and others. The designation of a Palestinian is a made-up group for people in this land that Muslim Arabs latched onto. This land simply did not belong to them in any significant way. It was property of the Ottoman Empire until its fall in 1918, and then it became property of the British, who then created the state of Israel and a semi two-state settlement.
I support Israel and like your post, but I would add more nuance to it. For centuries… irrespective of which power held what the Romans called Palestine, the vast majority of the people were Muslim. Jews and Christians were very small minorities. In the late 1800s, there were pograms against the Jews in Russia. Those pograms were the impetus of the Jewish Ziolinist movement. In the early 1900s, because of anti-semitism, the British signed the Balfour declaration promising the Jews their own state. As a result, Palestine began experiencing high volume of Jewish immigrants flowing into the predominately Muslim area. Irrespective of discussions of legality, as humans, we understand that cultural conflict is a real thing… and that was happening because of high volume of Jewish immigration. Things came to head in 1929 when the Muslims in Palestine had a pogram against the Jews. By analogy, think of the cultural conflict that occurred between the immigrants and the locals in America (I.e. Gangs of New York). It’s a human behavior… hence why nations should be careful with immigration and integration. Heck, Mexico - a Catholic state that despised slavery - lost Texas because it allowed large numbers of people that were Protestants from the American South (who liked slavery) to immigrate there. Cultural conflict is real.
There’s a lot more to the story, but I believe the above nuance is important.
@@BruceWing Just a nitpick, but Christian Zionism predates Zionism.
@@SirBlackReeds - I find the term “Christian Zionism” to be a misnomer. The term doesn’t describe Christians returning to some ancestral homeland. Instead, it describes Christians supporting Jews in returning to their ancestral homeland. Weird.
Wasn't the whole point of the crusades to put the holy land under Christian control? So there must have been a Muslim empire of some kind in control of the area back then? Perhaps that is what the claim is.
(Of course, biblical times pre-dates that....). Anyone who knows more to clarify would be great.
The territories of States and empires are not properties of the empires. Palestine is a geographic place. Its farms and houses belong to their respective owners, not the state. Palestinians are the people who lived and owned most of the private land in Palestine before Zionism took action, irregardless of their races or religions. They were forced to flee out of today's Israel to make room for a Jewish-majority state. This is horrible on its own, so much so that the Palestinians call it a catastrophe.The international community tried to mitigate it (and accept the Jewish-majority state as permanent) by giving the Palestinians a state in what's left of Palestine, territories which are currently known as "the Palestinian territories" assuming Israel would withdraw from there. By abandoning the two state solution, the only alternative will be that the whole of Palestine becomes one state. This is already the reality on the ground, except that the Palestinians can't vote or move around freely.
I've got a "Tube Steak Solution" for Liz Wolfe right here.
Stop sending my money to fight wars. "Full Stop"
Greatest ally bro
Support for Gaza is already being defunded.
@@jeremiahbrown9328 one way ally
Also Russia, China and Iran?
Hamas literally does represent the Palestinian people. They voted them in!
Hummus is good on pita
Just like the republicans and democrats represent the American people. They voted them in!
7% of the population voted in that election and Hamas canceled elections, so they cannot vote them out.
Exactly. Major gaff on Biden’s part. He obviously means that Hamas shouldn’t represent the Palestinians. But unfortunately, that is up to the Palestinians.
netanyahu is the modern day hitler
Nope. Never was.
Mr. Parsi is simply ignoring that Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas and, largely, the Palestinians do not accept Israel's right to exist. It's a false premise to suggest that they do.
Exactly. All Palestinians, which wasn't even a term until 1967, may not belong to Hezbollah and Hamas but Palestinians overwhelmingly reject any future where Israel is allowed to exist. Sorry but how many times must these people attempt to exterminate Israel before Israel is allowed to simply drive them out?
@@tomac100 Where is your evidence for this assertion ? And what does Hamas mean when it says “from the river to the sea”? Unless you can provide any such evidence of accepting Israel within the 67 borders, I would say you are simply a fool.
What an idiot damn 😂
@@foghorn90leghorn73So just because they say something it means they won't negotiate? I hate Israel as much as anyone and I actually thought Hamas was too moderate but I'd support 2 state solution. If Israel negotiated in good faith Palestinians would accept it. You don't know us.
@@micahjohnsonboxing6409 That's revealing, not in a good way.
So what is the alternative that do not involve population displacement and second class citizens ?
Trita seems slippery
Nope. It does NOT have to be steps toward de escalation as this expert says. He wants negotiations with hostage takers - he is an enabler.
Why Biden always look like he entered a bathroom that stinks really bad every time he speaks. 😅😅😨😨
He is 81 and at the end of his life. I never understood why Americans allow their president to be so old. Imagine a grandpa, who wears diapers running the most powerful nation on the planet. Never made sense to be.
The Palestinians have had multiple opportunities to accept Israel peace offer including their own state. They’ve rejected all offers.
1948 being the first.
It’s probably too late for two state solution.
Where do you get your information? 750,000 Palestinians were run off their land at gun point.
www.thehypertexts.com/Israeli%20Prime%20Ministers%20Terrorists%20Nakba.htm
So what then? Integrate the palestinians into israel with a one-state solution? Give them all citizenship? Or engage in ethnic cleansing on a massive scale?
he two-state solution was murdered on 7.10 by Hamas terrorists and by the Harvard students who danced and sang "From the River to the Sea"
"Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people". Really now?
It does.
Yet the Palestinian people all seem to parrot the Hamas line that Israel cannot be allowed to exist.
Palestinian Authority represents Palestine. Unless you'd beg to differ.
@@LittlePenguin1-17 PA would be voted out with extreme prejudice, if elections were allowed. Hamas would win by a landslide. Hamas is Palestinians, and Palestinians are Hamas. If it was different, Hamas never would have taken over in Gaza.
There is a lot to take in here @@MrMAXZ888 so let me break it down comment by comment.
UN offered Palestinians their own state in 1948.
Instead, the Palestinians attacked Israel.
And lost.
They also rejected it in 1937 and several times since.
@@kennethfharkin
True.
And in 2000 Israel offered Arafat a Palestinian state in all of Gaza and 94% of West Bank.
Arafat rejects.
In 2008 Israel offered Abbas the same and also to dismantle settlements.
Abbas rejected.
The Palestinians have has their opportunity for their own State.
It’s too late.
@@craiglittle7367it'll happen
Perhaps Palestinians couldn't understand why half their country was being given away, why the should leave their homes & villages to immigrants.
@@darkgalaxy5548
First of all, no land was stolen from the Palestinian Arabs.
Period.
Second of all, the Jewish people have been in that lane since before 1000 BC.
Put a shovel anywhere in the ground in Judea and Samaria and you dig up ancient Jewish history.
In 1948, the Jews agreed to share the land according to UN proposal.
The Palestinians no.
The Arabs messed up when they rejected that plan.
Abbas admitted as much.
So sad.
9:47 how about we recognize that every bit of land has been fought for with the possible exception of Antarctica. Hamas wants to fight a battle that was lost at the end of World War 1. Just recognize that it's Israel's land and hold Israel accountable for how they treat their people (which includes the Palestinians).
I am a 3rd party viewer and I just don't see how Israel could benefit from any likely implementation of a 2-state solution. One of the big things that drives the Palestinian crisis is the poverty of Palestine and I do not see how a 2-state solution would significantly improve that. Also, Iran has decided to place their economic engine to supply weapons to anyone who will fight against Israel so that funding would still exist. To me this indicates that attacks on Israel would not decrease. Also, with a move to a 2-state solution would mean that the conflict would then move to a conflict between two sovereign countries which would further complicate Israel's defense and security. I just don't see it. I know they can't politically say no to the hope of a 2-state solution but until Palestine can demonstrate that peaceful coexistence is something realistic. The current mentality is to keep kicking Israel until they finally say OK but I think that strategy is not realistic.
If Palestinians didn't fight Israel would never have left Gaza, remember there were Jewish settlers in Gaza.
"One of the big things that drives the Palestinian crisis is the poverty of Palestine and I do not see how a 2-state solution would significantly improve that." How would it not? Gaza's boarders are controlled by Israel, the water, electricity and food, their is an economic blockade on Gaza. It's why people have called it an open air prison. If they were actually a sovereign country who could control all these things themselves, I don't see how that wouldn't improve there poverty. At least the opportunity would be there.
Where as currently now, there isn't really any hope.
@@thinking7667 If they were a sovereign nation they would still not have an open border with Israel and I doubt Egypt would want to open the border with them either. That only leaves their seashore which would probably also remain unchanged. If they want to improve their economy they have to realize (unfair that it is) that they are a small country with very little influence, that violence is not going to solve that, and that they need a stable peaceful (or at least non-terrorist) government to move forward.
@@connecticutaggie I wouldn't assume that they would have open borders with Israel and Egypt.
It's not that Israel or Egypt won't let them in to their respective countries. It's that they largely cannot leave at all.
As for their economy, Israel controls imports and exports. Their is an economic blockade on Gaza.
This is not poverty. Nor territory. This is radical Islam. Hamas, Bin Laden and Qatar has billions. The more money and more land they have, the more terror they will perpetrate.
The Palestinians have been offered a two state solution 5 times since 1936. In 2005 Arafat was offered 99% of what Palestinians said what they wanted. Arafat still said no. So, what is possible?
If you want to know which parts of Palestine are not useless rocky desert find a map of the settlements. Do you need a history lesson?
www.thehypertexts.com/Israeli%20Prime%20Ministers%20Terrorists%20Nakba.htm
Is the alternative a final solution?
@@billbadson7598 TBF if you look at Hamas' core document that is their solution to the problem.
As Hitler put it so succinctly, "we want a final solution". Hamas wants the same thing. It's an untenable situation. May the stronger opponent win.
@@pappaflammyboi5799 Did he put it that way?
This sounds weak.
It is so annoying listening to people like Trita. "The usa needs to do more! The Israelis need to do more!" When was the last time the Palestinian Authority or Hamas pursed actual peace with Israel? The is absolutely nothing stopping the Pal Authority or Hamas from saying to Israel, "Okay, we are ready to stop fighting and discuss peace." Egypt said those words to Israel and they made peace relatively quickly. The Pal Authority is still paying terrorists for killing Jews and as for Hamas, they've made it very plain that they can't tolerate Israel under any condition. Why doesn't people like Trita ever approach this problem from that reality?
There will never be a two state solution. Ezekiel 37: 21-22.
Nope.
You cannot have a two state solution when the Arab side either says "No" every time or answers the offer with violence. The two sides do not think like one another. That is the problem.
The original Palestine Mandate in 1920 included the Golan Heights and what is now Jordan. The British gave the Golan to French Syria and hied off the East Bank of Palestine to a Hashemite king from the Hejaz in Arabia, who was an ally against the Ottoman Turks.
The Arabs rejected a UN two-state plan for western Palestine in 1947 and went to war against the plan's rump Israel. Later, repeated two-state proposals have been rejected by the Palestinian Arabs. Two experimental statelets, the Palestinian Authority and Gaza, have proved to be nests of rejection and terror. Today's mighty Israel is the size of New Jersey or Belgium, but mostly desert.
Trita Parsi is Islamic Iran's chief lobbyist in Washington. He is despised by many diaspora Iranians.
And having a no. Contiguous country with its largest piece cut up by Israeli settlements isnt a recipe for a state. There will never be a two state solution. Either the Palestinians meed to leave or become full Israeli citizens
This proves that suits don’t mean anything
Negotiations between two terrorist groups is normal 😂 if hamas are terrorists so is Israel so what's your point 😂
No
And the region of “Palestine” included the Transjordan region which is owned by Jordan which has not accepted any refugees
The mandate was already divided administratively in May 1923 into Palestine and Transjordan with the appointment of the first Emir by the UK. Already in 1922 the British forbade any immigration of the Jews to Transjordan. The definition of Palestine is also not consistently defined by the Palestinians themselves. The PLO charter till 1968 excluded Gaza and the Westbank from what the PLO defined as Palestine. But after the six-days war they amended their charter to include the occupied Westbank and Gaza strip into Palestine. Besides, historically, Palestine is not a historic entity. Under the Ottomans Palestine didn't exist for centuries. It's ironically a name invented by the British, but till 1948 none of the Arab inhabitants called themselves Palestinians, just as none of the Jews considered themselves Israëli's. All this makes it even harder to find a solution ....
@@TheMexxodus it came from the Romans after the Jewish revolt from the Philistines who were the enemies of the Jews
@@TheMexxodusvery thoughtful. Thank you
@@TheMexxodus Good summary. Palestine - as a name - was introduced by the Romans though.
@TheMexxodus A quick Google search easily proves you wrong, the first recorded self identifying by an Arab as a "Palestinian" goes back to just before 1900, there was even a news paper called the Palestinian or something similar in the early 1900s
Hi, answer: NO
Meow, this chic 😮!! 😍
Ask China.
Maybe China could take over the Gaza strip and keep the peace.
Palestinian people voted for Hamas.
That’s the same nonsensical argument that Bin Laden used to justify 9/11
And north Korea voted for Kim jong 🧐
Logical fallacy of appeal to the people:
If you’re going to give people a chance to choose more authoritarianism, you’re _already_ authoritarian.
You have to always make the _process_ more libertarian.
Libertarianism is always mostly in the process.
@@jeremiahbrown9328 but that's an argument for not giving Palestinians their own government because - like many countries ruled by political islam - they fail at that.
It doesn't absolve them from their responsibility - similar to Germany or Japan in the 1930ies.
Do you know year that happened?…
They don’t want 2 states. That’s been offered and rejected
Assam kae jo hai kiya support karta hai two stata one state
So it never gets fixed and the killing continues until the end of time. Perhaps it’s just the price you pay for “settling” on someone else’s land when the country is too small to sufficiently geographically segregate the conquered community across vast distances like the US did. You got your land. Now do the best you can to survive on it. You will never know peace.
A two-state solution was tried when the land was divided into Israel and Palestine. What hasn't been tried is a three-state solution: Israel, Palestine, and the Gaza Strip serving as both an autonomous zone and a buffer between the two. Don't like it? Well, there's another possible solution: Israel annex's Gaza.
To quote Austin Petersen, "it’s clear that the likelihood of [a two-state solution] is not only politically unfeasible, but it’s not in the best interests of the Palestinian people in the Gaza strip. Despite the fact that Hamas was elected in 2006, the people who live there haven’t seen an election since. That needs to change... Hold a referendum on the annexation of Gaza to be subsumed into the political nation of Israel. Currently the 20% of Israeli citizens who are Palestinian Arabs enjoy human rights accorded to the people of civilized Western nations, and NO Arab nations. This arrangement, while imperfect, at a minimum solves the problem of the humanitarian crisis within the Gaza borders, eliminates once and for all the ability of Hamas to control the region, and puts Palestinians who actually want to be free on a path to citizenship. Israel would no longer have an incentive to cut access to resources to the region, and the free flow of commerce could begin... Establishing free and fair elections, with the proper advertising campaign on the benefits of citizenship, might be the best path forward.
Governments are only legitimate if they have the consent of the governed. Once Israel has established security in the region, and some sense of normalcy has been restored, they would be well served to consider adding to their territory, resources, and ending an ongoing security threat once and for all... If a referendum were successful, and Israel’s annexation of the region were complete, it’s possible that many Palestinians might refuse to accept that government. If so, Israel would be wise to avoid a PR blunder a la Andrew Jackson’s Trail of Tears, and perhaps safe passage ought be afforded to Jordan or the West Bank for those who find Western liberty intolerable."
99% of Palestinians would accept to be annexed by Israel, but only if Israel annexes all of Palestine and governs it democratically.
What's another word to describe this solution? Oh I know, a one state solution. This is exactly what the PLO had been calling for for decades, the same decades during which it was considered a terrorist organization.
The world wants to create a Bantustan and legitimize apartheid
Why 2 states instead of what we did here making Black Americans full citizens with full rights. Why not a push get Israel to absorb Gaza and the West Bank and make all arabs in Israel full citizens?
That would be suicidal. We all saw what happens when two people no longer separated by the wall.
@@MrMAXZ888 Exactly that. More realistic solution would be - in my view - to give Gaza to Egypt (they probably don't want to have it) and move the (few) Palestinians in the West Bank to either Gaza, Jordan or any other country of their choosing (as long as they accept them).
@@svr5423Egypt, Jordan and others refuse to take them. They were happy to back multiple wars though.
@@svr5423is the West Bank your dads to give
@@TayyyandZayyy Yes of course.
Israel has an estimated 200 nuclear weapons, all can be and are likely converted into neutron weapons:
A neutron bomb, officially defined as a type of enhanced radiation weapon (ERW), is a low-yield (or high yield in some cases) thermonuclear weapon designed to maximize lethal neutron radiation in the immediate vicinity of the blast while minimizing the physical power of the blast itself. The neutron release generated by a nuclear fusion reaction is intentionally allowed to escape the weapon, rather than being absorbed by its other components. The neutron burst, which is used as the primary destructive action of the warhead, is able to penetrate enemy armor more effectively than a conventional warhead, thus making it more lethal as a tactical weapon.
The concept was originally developed by the United States in the late 1950s and early 1960s. It was seen as a "cleaner" bomb for use against massed Soviet armored divisions. As these would be used over allied nations, notably West Germany, the reduced blast damage was seen as an important advantage.
The problem with Biden’s speech, is that Hamas does in fact represent the Palestinian people, at least in Gaza. No doubt Biden means that Hamas shouldn’t represent them. But it does. Palestinians have no problem with being ruled by radical Islamists, and have never lifted a finger against their overlords. Hamas has done absolutely nothing to better the condition of the Palestinians. On the contrary, Hamas’ sole fixation, on destroying the state of Israel, has brought suffering and death to the Palestinians on an unimaginable scale. The tragedy is compounded when we realize that Hamas’ self-destructive ambitions cannot possibly be achieved. Gaza will be a smoking sheet of glass before Hamas takes Tel Aviv or Jerusalem. And, as always, it will have been the Palestinian people, pawns in a cruel war of religious fanaticism against enlightened reason, who will have been the real victims.
Totally against giving money all the time. If they know they will continue to receive free money from foreigners who (should) have no involvement in the matter there is no incentive to stop. No money to anyone in the region. That may help them decide that peace is a better solution.
There are no solutions.
The grass shall be mowed for perpetuity.
Billions for Israel..$100 million for Palestine... from our tax dollars...
Parsi is smooth but highly misinformative. I think his assumptions about the conflict and its eventual resolution (some way or another) are coloured by his longtime support for Iranian foreign policy - of which Hamas itself is a useful tool.
Nope. There is not a “Two state solution”. Salt the earth with “hot” cobalt so both sides can’t live there.
Seriously though. Best boy bands. Backside boys, instink or one erection?😮
The Beatles.
Have a one state solution with a much more libertarian government.
Two states that are religious-authoritarian states is an incredibly horrible idea.
Religious punitive-statism is always very authoritarian.
Israel is a secular government with Arabs having 20-25% representation (elected).
@@BonnieBlue2A Absolutely false. Israel is a religious punitive state. The religion they choose to merge with is judaism.
How do you not know that?
@@BonnieBlue2Athey are a majority, yet have a minority in government. The constitution says Israel is a Jewish state and it is impossible to make it no longer a Jewish state. The Supreme Court can only have Jewish members. The flag is literally a Star of David
@@marcaldovino264you are misinformed. There is an Arab judge on Israel Supreme Court and many other Arab judges in Israel's judicial system. Arabs makeup a little over 20% of Israel's population, have their own political parties and are represented in Israel's parliament. They volunteer for the Israeli Army and have risen high in the ranks. Arabs are 50% of Israel's doctors and pharmacists.
You think you know about Israel but you don't.
Your naivete is touching. How will that libertarian government survive with middle age savages like Hamas murdering opposition and strong arming elections? How will that state survive when the Arab population literally does not see the right of the Jewish population to exist? Your pretty ideas disintegrate in the real world.
The Likud charter demands the eradication of Palestine. Hamas demands the eradication of Israel.
It's not possible.
The Likud supports a two-state solution. You're probably looking at a VERY old platform.
Quick answer: NO!
Silly analysis
There are already 2 states
The fact that you don't "recognize" one of them doesn't really change that
Not even the Palestinians recognize their own state. They don't want it.
Sometimes they would even claim that Hamas isn't the elected government of Gaza autonomous region.
I think Parsi has a very clear-eyed view of this situation. The two-state solution is a fiction. No one takes it seriously anymore--not the Israelis, not the Palestinians, not the Americans. We all just keep saying it, because it allows us to ignore the horrible reality on the ground, and the immense difficulty of what necessarily lies ahead. It has enabled a toxic status quo where everyone thinks they can just contain and ignore the problem. The settlements--now all over the West Bank, with hundreds of thousands of Israelis living there, have made two states impossible between the river and the sea. The Israelis and the Palestinians are inevitably, eventually, going to have to learn to live together as one people, with equal rights for all, and a strong constitution and institutions to prevent abuses by one religion or the other.
It's easier for Israeli politics to accept a one state solution than to pull off the two state solution. The one state solution is the just solution because it paves the way for the Palestinians who lost private property in Israel proper to reclaim it or to at least visit their relatives in today's Israel.
By the way, a one state reality without a one state solution is just apartheid, where one group in the one state gets to vote and another does not.
This would be entirely correct and reasonable. If Israel were actually at all likely to make acceptance of Palestinians a reality. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like that is the case. By all account I've seen, the public and political rhetoric actually within Israel (not what they say to US lawmakers and news agencies) is that Palestinians- that's the people, not just the nation- have no right to exist and should be oppressed or eliminated. Even if on paper just policies were to be put in place, I could not blame Palestinians for not believing they would be upheld.
This is fundamentally the problem with religiously and/or ethnically homogeneous states. Such a state will not seek acceptance and integration of the other, only the elimination of it. Obviously I don't have a solution for this. There probably isn't any politically acceptable action that would actually solve the problem. But let's at least be aware of the reality and not just what's being put on paper.
No, it's not. Nobody cares
As Hitler put it so succinctly, "we want a final solution". Hamas wants the same thing. It's an untenable situation. May the stronger opponent win.
' Palestinians Had NO OPTION-Norman Finkelstein '
2 states!
Time to choose a flag for the new country.
😅
Good idea. In general, I support it.
However, how could we persuade Palestinians to accept this?
And given political islams track record of governing, especially in Gaza, - how could we ensure such a state does not pose a threat to their neighbor?
Not America's problem. Period.
Well, neither are your problems haha
Two state solution has sailed. Either give Palestianians asylum in the US or make the citizens of Israel with equal rights.
No people opposing separation of church and state, and freedom of speech, should allowed into the US. They are open enemies.
Free palestine
Palestine will be freed from Hamas. Just be patient.
I have recently changed my tune on this, and no longer believe a two-state solution is possible. The latest move by the Israeli government illustrates such intense mutual hatred that they can never live together. But I think the winner is the primeval resident : Israel will have to go.