The Contrarians Presents: The Controversy and Legacy of Metallica's Black Album
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- The crew talks about Metallica's Black Album.
The Contrarians is a show where one of us jumps in the hot seat picks a dark horse album from a band as that band's best album. The guest host will argue against them with facts, stats and all around truth, subjective and objective!
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If you leave the most commercial song or songs off the Black Album (Nothing Else Matters, maybe The Unforgiven, MAYBE Enter Sandman), most of the “sellout” accusations would disappear. Every song on this album kicks all sorts of ass, it’s an enduring classic for a reason
If Metallica wanted to sell out in the mid 90s they'd have done the Blacker Album, not a bluesy, southern rock meets metal album like the Loads
The legacy of the album can be described in one sentence: 'Never let Bob Rock produce your record'. As it will precipitate your demise and result in your drummer being the worst in the world, your guitarist being unable to produce ANY compelling solos EVER again and your sound just being like a pub covers band of the Foo Fighters. 😂
This album was a sellout album. Enter Sandman dropped and every speaker on Earth regurgitated it every 45 minutes like clockwork. I was mortified to see the greatest Thrash band in the world singing nursery rhymes on Mtv. I did not buy the sellout album or the subsequent deuces they dropped. You could not escape the songs on this album so I heard most of it over and over at work on the radio or Mtv and I kept trying to like each single as they were paraded around me but, it was not what I wanted from the band that released Master of Puppets, Battery, Fight Fire With Fire, Blackened, and Damage Inc. Sorry, not sorry. I listened to the album the whole way through for the first time a couple of years ago for a show one on Sea of Tranquility and I won't need to that again. I did come out of there liking two songs. Of Wolf And Man & The Struggle Within. Neither are all-time classics but, They weren't shoved down our throats ad nauseam. They would have been great deep cuts if they whole albums thrashed but, they're relegated to outliers on a mundane commercial sellout. I tried to get back onboard with them with every release from St. Anger (Don't get me started on that fiasco) onward and honestly, they got closer with each release to my ears. 72 Seasons is the first one that stuck for me though. It's not quite up to their first four but, I have it ranked ahead of the Sellout album at #5. I have Garage Days Inc at #6 followed by Sellout and the Loads.
Metallica probably couldn’t ever top justice, it wasn’t gonna get faster or more prog so what’s next? Overproduced watered down rock and that’s what they did. Justice was a monster to play night after night so they ditched thrash. The black album is trash if you are looking for another Metallica thrash record, if you are just a music fan who likes hard rock it’s probably great. As someone who has experienced every Metallica album in real time from age 11 or 12 all the way to 51 the black album sucks and it always will
It boggles my mind how some people like bob rock’s production. He cut their balls off and killed everything that was great about them. The black album sounds like a heavier kiss record. Flemming Rasmussen was the perfect producer for them. We have bob to thank for everything that came after the black record. Had they at least stuck with a serious metal producer who knows what we could have had from 92 til now
I think it’s because it is a sell out album that gets it in trouble. I mean when you hire Bob Rock to do your rock album, you’re not in it just for the art. You’re thinking of the money now and widening your audience for sellout exposure.
It is repetitious and formulaic. I don’t think it has aged as well as Kill em All - Justice.
I can leave it behind and not miss it.
I had no problems with them doing ballads, and Unforgiven does work for me. My issue with Nothing Else Matters isn't that it's a ballad, but that it would have been right at home on a Winger, Extreme or Warrant album. They began to lose their identity.
correct on all points, but ironically things have gotten so bad that now there's more art in those old analog 80S or 90s commerical ass recordings than the quantized, digitized crap we hear nowadays lol
I think it’s a great album. Not everything has to be compared to something else in some made-up contest. Just fucking jam!
I think its a strong album. I think maybe 2 tracks too long. Maybe 3. One of those tracks should've been replaced by a song where they'd kick the tempo up to "thrash" speed. I was disappointed when I heard it. It was the first Metallica album with filler. But let's be honest, before this album when did you hear anything as heavy as Sad But True on the radio?
They were very much influenced by Trouble at that point in time. They consciously wanted to slow down and be a little more doomy. I wish the S/T Trouble album would have had the same success. For my money it is a much better album than the Black album. Just my opinion. Great show guys 🤘
Trouble's discography deserves to all be at least Gold. Brilliant underrated doom. Produced by Rick Rubin too. How the fuck does that work?
I mean they were listening to slower stuff in general. I remember an interview with Kirk from that time talking about taking influence from Soundgarden and Godflesh. I'm sure Trouble and Candlemass were played as well.
yeah they at least James loved the nineties COC as well, and my friend told me he thought ST Anger has as much influence from them as it does Nu Metal
@@themadmattster9647 There's not doubt about the COC influence in my mind. I view Load and Reload as their attempt to make their own version of COC's Deliverance, they failed but they tried.
I hate this album more and more, so played out. This album still sells because you hear it everywhere. I lived it in real time also. I remember my brother bought the cd for me back in 1991and I really like it because I only had thirteen tapes or cd's to listen it. I just think Metallica was at the right place at the right time with a lot of luck, luck, luck. Even back then I got tired of MTV playing enter sandman and nothing else matters.
Kill Em All is their masterpiece. The Black album is pretty mediocre and the sound is boring.
I hated it in 1990 and I still can't get past the fact that it's just a boring album. But then I'm an original Kill em All buyer.... so I guess I'm not supposed to like it.
Didn't Nevermind sell over 30 Million as well? At least Wikipedia says so... so they owned the 90s too!
They didn't own anything. Who listened to Nevermind after 94? No one did. They were done by that point. A short period of time phenomenon. Metallica were increasing their success throughout the whole decade.
@@tjsststsjsjyksjgksjysjs7633 Me and also other fans of Nirvana did. A great album by a great and timeless band, that kicked Metallica’s butt back in the day. Certainly stands the test of time better than black album imho.
@@wernermoritz882 a timeless band? Haha come on, what are you talking about? No one cared for them after their frontman shot himself. As much as no one cared for grunge in general after 94. Yes, perhaps some fans still listen to their music to this day, but to call it timeless? It was actual for a very short period of time, maybe 3-4 years at best, then it died, everyone was tired of that annoying pitiful style, what's timeless about it? It was a short lived music phenomenon, it has no historical value. And how did they kick Metallica's ass? They were forgotten quickly after Kurt died, while Metallica possessed the heavy metal genre for the whole decade, selling more and more copies of their albums even if the music itself sucked.
@@tjsststsjsjyksjgksjysjs7633grunge going out of style has nothing to do with Nirvana‘s music being timeless, their music lives on. Couldn‘t disagree more with your ridiculous statement. Nirvana’s music does have historical value, no doubt about it.
You knowceveryone do you? I rather listen to Kurt read a book than listen to any of the bullshit buttrock Metallica made in the 90s.@@tjsststsjsjyksjgksjysjs7633
Justice is an amazing album. No one talked about the sound and lack of bass when we were in high school listening to it. It’s fashionable to bash it now.
And Justice For All is unquestionably their best album.... If I'm in a mood for Metallica it's that, Lighting or Kill em All....
Yup, I remember the same. No one complained about the lack of bass in 88/90 We knew it had no bass, but the guitars were so massive that it didn't matter. Besides, Slayer, Sepultura and some other thrash bands you could barely hear the bass.
Everyone knows Justice is the pinnacle of progressive thrash darkness..... Blackened is an all time classic, one of the greatest album openers in metal history, along with Fight Fire with Fire. I'm by no means a Metallica apologist, I think they're absolutely awful live & have been basically since the early 90's.
I was about 20 yrs old when black album came out, big Metallica fan since about 14, deeply loved them, and I didn’t see it coming, my friend picked me up one day and said dude, got the new Metallica. He put the tape in side one and I was immediately disappointed. They went pop. And it only got worse with subsequent albums. I felt they betrayed us. It took me nearly two decades to forgive them. I don’t like anything they’ve done since Justice, but I don’t begrudge them their success.
Exactly. I'm with you 100%
Bought it when it came out, massively disappointed. Overproduced and boring. Completely generic after Justice.
I go back and listen to kill ‘em all ride the lightning, master of puppets, justice, garage days.
I don’t go back and listen to the black album.
To me, it was a sell out after the fact. I liked it at the time, but after hearing the stuff that came after, the black album started the sell out or jumping the shark
This album is worn the fuck out. Like all Metallica at this point just overplayed and overblown. Hearing these tunes just makes me turn it off. If you still listen to this I'm gonna assume you hang out in your pickup drinking Old Milwaukee😅😅😅😅
Yup Metallica sucks, all of it sucks, yes even the 80's stuff sucks.
I'll also add, that I can empathise to a degree with the (predominantly older) fans who saw this as a sell-out, given the departure it was from the previous. What I don't understand, are those who love the Black Album but cried Load/Reload were the sell-out albums. Objectively, from a purely musical perspective Load/Reload are nowhere near as big a departure from the Black Album as the latter was from AJFA, so while I can understand those who checked out in 1991, I struggle to see the logic from those who cite its follow-ups (albeit bloated and overlong) as where they 'jumped the shark', given around 2/3 of the 27 tracks wouldn't sound out of place on the Black Album.
No controversy. The black album is an amazing album.👍
Exactly right.
It's garbage
It's utter bollocks but I respect your opinion
Fantastic show gents! Great points of view and made for sure.
No problem with the Black album at all. At the time it was a juggernaut.
However like some others mentioned the production was awesome but, quite a few songs got so over played that I stopped listening to it for years. Like from 1993 to 2006.
I'll be honest I stepped away from the tail end of the Black Album run, the Load/ Reload/ St. Anger era. It wasn't my deal.
I picked up again with Death Magnetic in 2008.
I'll still occasionally listen to some of the songs from the black album like Holier than Thou, Through the never, Of Wolf and Man.
I'm more into the first 4 albums. Especially Ride the Lightning.
The later stuff as well like Death Magnetic and Hardwired.
BTW Joe love the call back to the Loop in Chicago with Get the Led out, Mandatory Metallica, Mood elevation hour. The problem with " Mandatory Metallica" they'd only play Sandman, Nothing Else Matters, Seek and Destrory and Fade to Black. Too bad they didn't play more thrashy stuff like Motorbreath, Phantom Lord, Hit the Lights, Fight Fire with Fire, Creeping Death, Ride etc., etc.
When the other thrash bands "slowed down" they weren't too bad but not like the Black Album.
It happens to me... I can live without nothing else matter, whereaver and sandman ( sometimes) .. I certainly can live without the unforgiven... they could play more the second half of the album.
Martin's right (47:35) about to whom Black Album was made for. At 28, they were probably tired of Thrash in 91 and clearly doing the album for people their age. While I had just turned 18 in august 91 and felt let down - I expected Justice 2. But I came around pretty soon. I don't think it's exactly a sellout. If they wanted to sellout, the safer way was doing Justice pt2. But I do think they went too far on slowing. It's repetitive. 8 songs would be enough (minus Holier, Tread, Never, Struggle) or 10 songs - if they kept those 4 songs out and included 2 thrash ones in.
I think Holier would be a perfect opening track as it supposed to be before Sandman was written. A simple catchy song. I would also exclude Sandman, Sad but true, Unforgiven, Nothing else from the album, these songs make me sick. You still get 8 tracks of decent heavy metal, probably add two thrash songs and the album is done.
@@tjsststsjsjyksjgksjysjs7633you're leaving out the 4 songs (5 including Wherever) that made BA a classic. If you're tired of them (and I sure am) that's just because they are overplayed. But believe or not, those are the ones with the best arrangements and "new ideas", where they did "the groove/different thing" better. I think Sandman is a perfect opening song. To me, Holier has a very weak verse, and that intro riff (that is also the chorus) is not enough.
@@RodrigoAlves-bc8qq I'm definitely tired of those songs so I can't judge them rationally anymore, maybe you are right and they have the best arrangements and new ideas, it's hard to tell now after listening to them thousand times. Although I still like Wherever, it isn't so burnt out for me. And you're right about the opening track too, I forgot how really weak the verse in Holier was. But that bass intro sounds cool, always loved it.
WRIF in Detroit literally had a call-in radio show in the late 80s to let listeners decide whether they should "allow" Metallica to be played on their station. They were getting so many people calling in to get it played but it had been considered too heavy. Now they play Metallica multiple time a a day due to the Black album.
I dated a girl around the time BLACK ALBUM came out. We all sat there with the cassette blaring out of the stereo like HUH?! It was and still is a weak album. Metallica planned it that way. And I saw them on their tour as a solo band, and it was one of the three worst shows I ever saw in my life.
Lars can't stay at one tempo to save his life
I was 14 when Load came out, so to me the Black Album was not controversial. It was as much a part of Metallica as Kill Em All and Puppets.
That said, I find all these years later that the Black Album simply is not interesting to listen to at all. It's so even-toned and TOO clean in the production. It has no teeth, though it tries to sound heavy and menacing at times. It feels like someone talking tough while wearing a muscle suit.
Other albums from that era still hold up to me (Rust In Peace and Countdown to Extinction bookend around the Black Album with a lot more creative vitality and energy). I feel like the Black Album shot to the moon in sales on the back of 3 songs - Sandman, Unforgiven and Nothing Else Matters. I'd be hard pressed to believe that most of the 30+ million people who apparently bought the Black Album have an abiding love for deep tracks like Don't Tread On Me, Of Wolf And Man or The Struggle Within.
There's no way anything pantera done is better than the black album. I think Martin really enjoys going against the grain. A true contrarian.
I was working at a record store at the time and we had the window calendar display for it. Every day we had to pull off a paper with the days left until the release date and give it to our resident Metallica fan worker, so he could keep it. He loved it but did think they went a little mellow. I loved it but still preferred the thin sounding ...And Justice for All album. AJFA was our Sunday afternoon gotta play it album for years, with that Metallica fan programming it to play in different order every listen.
Great discussion. I became a metalhead in Greece so I can totally verify what Philip said. Metal press at the time (metal hammer and a greek magazine called Metal Invader) used to shit on metallica every month.
I have a bit of earburn when it comes to the black album but honestly it's a great album
In all honesty Martin, Master is a far better record than its contemporaries. It's not even my favorite Metallica record anymore due to burnout but if someone asked me for a great heavy, thrash type record I'd probably recommend Master. It's got just enough diversity to satisfy a new fan to heavy music. A trait I only find in Metallica's big four. I've heard the best of thrash records and they just did it better. Songwriting and James's right hand. Plus Cliff. Most thrash records don't let up. And that also makes them great but a tough listen for someone new to the genre and I find those records have forgettable songs. I'm 53 and was all in on the thrash movement. Bought Kill em All in '83. And it still is a landmark album to me. I can't think of any band's records that can even top it even that early in their career. I definitely wish Dave and Cliff were in the band today. Kirk and Jason don't seem that important in the long run.That would have been a way more interesting career projection. But they probably would have broken up. I bet we would have got two more classics though.
I would argue that Back in Black and Appetite for Destruction are pure metal records that would be even more allowed in someone's collection? Unless you don't consider them pure metal? Paranoid? I guess I don't follow where you're going with a pure metal record allowed in someone's collection.
I don't think I woulda put down Master. I think it's better than everything by their contemporaries.
@@captainkirk70would any of those records qualify as metal. All of them are hard rock to me.
@@wernermoritz882 yeah. I suppose you're right but we consider alot of bands NWOBHM as metal. That are really just hard rock. I was 10 when BIB came out. It was definitely the heaviest record in my collection. I think it's hindsight that some bands are hard rock. I don't really consider British Steel to be heavier than BIB. Just AC/DC had a better drummer and Malcolm make the difference between some of the "metal" bands. I consider AFD to be a pretty heavy record to someone listening to Janet Jackson at the time. Which I thought was the point. I had a girlfriend with terrible taste but she had BIB.
For how good this album is the thing that I don't like about this album is it brought in people who would just listen to Metallica and nothing else in the metal genre. I've met people who listen to Metallica, and I'd suggest something like Iron Maiden They'd would say "No, I don't listen to anything that heavy."
Think the Black Album is fantastic. Especially the deep cuts. The God That Failed, Thru the Never, My Friend of Misery. That being said, I would be ok if I never heard Enter Sandman ever again.
I still have the "Metal up Your A$$"ep and have "Kill 'Em All" and "Ride the Lightning" on cassette from, "Music for Nations" record label. My brother was stationed in the Mediterranean and sent me both tapes in 1984. I thought it was awesome. Unfortunately, no one around me had even heard of these evil, satanic, god awful noise i was listening to. He also sent me, Merciful Fate, "Dont Break the Oath" and yes, i was considered the spawn of Satan...
As a person who was a big fan of Metallica from the mid-80s, I can say with no doubt that this album is a sell-out album. Clearly, I accept the argument that Metallica selling out was a positive thing. But, let’s not delude ourselves into thinking that this was anything but a complete sell-out by them.
Metallica became popular with kids like me through tape trading.
My first exposure to Metallica was via a multi-generation old cassette tape of songs from Kill ‘em All. My first album was Ride the Lightning and then I worked my way back. Starting with Ride, Metallica became more popular with each record release. Up through And Justice, that rise in popularity was on their terms as artists who remained true to their original vision and their loyal fans.
They replaced their long time producer with a guy who had a reputation for producing pop metal albums. They softened and slowed down their songs to make them more palatable to FM radio and MTV. Finally, they abandoned the trend of increasing musical complexity and sophistication with each album in exchange for catchy simplistic riffs.
They sold out. I bought the album the day it was released in spite of disliking the early single (Sandman). I played it and I tried to like it. After several listens, I tossed my cassette against the wall of my bedroom and cracked it. It sucked then and it still sucks today!
Metallica is a name you come up with when you're 13......😂. I laughed out loud because it's absolutely true.
Let’s be honest. Metallica sold out. In saying that, I am not necessarily saying that is a bad thing. But no band sells 30 million copies by accident. Ok; 30 maybe, but 20 or more doesn’t happen by accident. This is an orchestrated effort by the band, their management, the record companies etc are all on board to make happen.
This album; i think, ensured Metallica stayed an arena/stadium/multi platinum band for years to come. They would have lost some hard core thrash fans, but from all the people who bought the Black album a portion of them would have started to follow the band. And there would have been a lot of established fans who would have stayed with them.
The most annoying thing about the Black Album is not that it´s way overplayed. It´s more that it´s the band´s last decent album, yet they somehow just keep getting bigger all the time. Why?!
I genuinely don’t understand the opinion that it’s their “last decent album”.
@@AndDeathForAll82 what's their last decent album in your opinion?
Haha, you're absolutely right, it's so wierd and illogical from a heavy metal fan perspective, I've never thought about it this way. But maybe there's a simple explanation: the vast majority of people who began to listen to Metallica in the 90's and further don't have taste in heavy metal music, they prefer primitive commercial crap that is simple, polished and accessible for their ears. Also another fact might be that Metallica has become a popular culture thing, it's not just music anymore, it's an attitude for heavy metal posers who wear their shirts and think they are tough guys.
@@ffghfdsgfgdgsfhgsf I think Death Magnetic, Hardwired, and 72 Seasons are all better than The Black Album.
And regarding your other point, I’m just a Metallica fan. I’m also a big Metalhead and I especially love OSDM and Prog Metal… such is hardly “simple”. Some people just enjoy the albums they made after 1991. I think because of how music is consumed now, people don’t give new Metallica the opportunity to stick with them like they did with the older albums. A lot of people listened to the last three albums a few times, then decided “this isn’t as good as what I’ve listened to for over 30 years.” Well, no shit. You’re not letting the new music take hold if it’s done that way.
@@AndDeathForAll82 Death Magnetic is great. The first half of Hardwired is okay but the second half sucks d*ck. Am I Savage? is one of the worst songs Metallica ever wrote. 72 Seasons is just plain terrible. And don't even get me started on Kirk's lazy, generic solos on that album
I came into Metallica with Master. I like the Black album but I don't necessarily love it. I could never hear Enter Sandman again and be just fine. I don't really look at it as a sell out, maybe Load/Reload would be more so if any of their albums are but they definitely lost the thrash aspect of their music. They became very much a traditional metal band with this one. They progressed as a band and it turned out to be their most successful album. They became cool to everyone because they were now commercially available to the masses.
For a show that prides itself on contrarianism, there wasn’t really a contrary perspective offered by any of the panelists. Instead, every individual took turns extolling this album and/or professing how historic this album was in the pantheon of rock history.
I remember a Kmart tv commercial that said the Black Album was Metallica's debut album..no joke!
Never thought about it, but Martin hit the nail on the head. Metallica are my age,and while I liked the early albums especially Master of puppets, this album was my metal that I grew up with,as they did, and my favourite Metallica album, though subsequent albums lost me mainly because they were too long and that made them boring.
I can see thrash fans thought it was a sell out but true thrash was really short lived and probably had a limited audience and lifespan.
Wonder if it could be compared to the way Opeth have moved from the extreme metal to the progressive band with clean vocals?
Yes, that Opeth point is a great point - agree. Nice one.
Except that Opeth was always a Progressive band it's just that they used to combine it Death Metal. That is what made them good, now there's just a boring 70's Prog patische. Just like Metallica became a super generic and boring Heavy Rock/Metal band.
Even as a metalhead back in the day, I never liked Metallica but I respect them and hold them very high as artists. They always took big risks and managed to keep an integrity to their artistsic vision which must be very hard to do at the level they are playing this game. Wasn't this the essential ingredient in metal and thrash and punk, to do things your way?
Great album but as a big fan at the time, I had to warm up to it. Not my favorite but obviously very successful at what they wanted to achieve. As for the sellout issue - Metallica never sold out, they were pushing their own boundaries each and every album. For a perfect example of a true sellout attempt, study Sugar Ray's '14:59'
Simplifying music is not pushing boundaries. Actually it's quite the opposite. They definitely pushed their bounadies with Justice, tried something new after pure thrash era. But calling a black album pushing bounadries... come on! This was a true sellout. You had a complex prog metal album with questionable production, and now you get a simplistic boring radio friendly hard rock with polished juicy sound. If this is not a sellout attempt then I don't know a better example what is.
@@ffghfdsgfgdgsfhgsf I realize there are some who see simpler song structure from Metallica as 'sellout' but it's extremely difficult to craft a short hooky tune that connects instinctually to a listener. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. For progressive thrash band to do what had literally never been done before - that is the definition of pushing boundaries. They risked alienation from their established fanbase and rejection from the masses, all to make something new and original - and it worked. Sellout is doing the exact thing you don't want to do in order to get something in return - 'the sure thing'.
I never need to hear 'Enter Sandman' again but I'll never deny it's a bonafide perfect hard rock single that made the entire world turn their head towards metal. They may not have done what hardcore fans wanted but they clearly made the right choice on their own terms, against the grain of all their peers. You can find it boring or beneath their previous catalog but it truly was a bold move. Obviously we disagree and that's fine but just wanted to share why I've always found the sellout debate asinine. What do I know though, I love 'St. Anger' dearly.
I bought it when it came out and liked it. But Kill em all is my fav and looking back ,i never liked anything after the black album and i now see it as a sell out and a definite turning point. I understand why they did it, but it doesnt hold up for me
10 /10
As with many gateway bands, where we came in is often crucial to how we perceive pivotal albums in their history. I find myself caught between two camps when viewing this album retrospectively; on one hand, I was born in the early 80's and came in to Metallica with this album, in 1992. For that reason, I cannot hate it and recognise it was pivotal to my metal journey, not only in discovering Metallica, but the many bands who influenced them (often via the Garage Days albums). Conversely, if I came in on Master of Puppets in 1986, or one of the two classics either side of it, I would have probably been horrified when this came out in 1991, such is its stripped-down, simplified nature.
What I do find objectionable however, is the fact they remain in an unassailable position at the top of the metal tree, despite not having made a classic album since this. Sure, Death Magnetic has its moments, but it's an exercise in self-plagiarism akin to AJFA Part 2. Hardwired also has great material, but the second disc is full of filler (a single album of 9 songs would have been far tighter) and the new album has the common thread that has plagued every album after the Black Album; an infuriating inability to self-edit.
Im still waiting for a great follow up to Kill em All since 1983. They went downhill as soon as they left Megaforce.
They downhill but became one of the biggest selling bands ever. What a stupid comment.
The timing of this album is part of what made it perfectly poised to sell millions.
It actually outsold all Glam Metal - despite being less obviously "commercial" than those bands.
I think the timing of it coinciding with the Grunge explosion is no coincidence - it coincided with people generally being interested in a "darker" aesthetic. This album was the perfect balance of appealing to the die-hard Metal fan and the normies.
Although the die-hard Metal fans would eventually come to resent it - due to how ubiquitous it became.
It aged a LOT better than Glam Metal in the 90s - it somehow remained "cool" just as other kinds of more commercial leaning Metal were becoming very "uncool".
Pantera also did well in the 90s - and while they're not as "glossy" and polished as this album - they represent the same kind of sound.
A Post-Thrash style - which I guess was a new kind of "Heavy Metal" - essentially Slowed-Down Thrash or "Groove Metal".
I guess it was influenced by Doom Metal in a way - bands like Trouble, and even Sabbath.
I remember Overkill stating Sabbath were their influence for going a bit more Groove on their 1989 album "The Years of Decay".
I guess "Doom-Thrash" isn't really a thing because of how intrinsic the guitar tone of Thrash is to it's sound.
You try to mix Doom and Thrash and you accidentally come up with Groove Metal type sounds.
Joe?? Insane... Justice is their best. TBA isn't even in my top6
it is mid i suppose but in high school in the 90s i literally bought it like 4 times…twice it was stolen out of my backpack
Excellent show guys! Martin, you are a great storyteller but sometimes you fall into unnecessary heist and start jumping from one thought to another so it becomes really difficult to follow where you are going. And Reed, I absolutely love your takes on every show you host, you always find something interesting to tell, all these stats you find and other stuff, just awesome! Your analysis is always unique and fascinating, I really appreciate your job on this channel.
For me, because of my age and background, Metallica's Black Album was my gateway into heavier music. When the album came out, I was like 15 years old and only listened to commercial hard rock and glam metal. Thrash metal was a little bit intimidating to me due to being raised in a conservative home. But I simply could not deny just how catchy "Enter Sandman" was, so I gave in and picked up the album on cassette. Before long, I had picked up the older Metallica albums and seen them in concert. I got into Megadeth, then Anthrax, Testament, Pantera, Sepultura, Slayer, and continuously heavier bands. By the end of the 90's, I was listening to death metal and dabbling in black metal. For me, Metallica's Black Album is the ultimate gateway metal album.
Enter Sandman has one of the dullest riffs a widely well regarded metal-song ever ever had.
The people who call The Black Album a "sellout" album are just narrow-minded individuals who only listen to one sub-genre of music and throw a tantrum when their favorite band tries something different
So basically they are right, they stick to their principles.
@@ffghfdsgfgdgsfhgsfI would say limiting yourself musically is a dumb principle
@@TotalMeltdown2 but that's you. if they are fine with their musical narrowness why should they be forced to expand their musical horizons? if they like their sub-genre to be pure it's fine, I don't see anything wrong with it. everybody likes what they like, there's no universal formula for a perfect music taste.
no, when kids who MADE FUN of you for liking something a year before all of a sudden tell you they like Metallica now since it was trendy, there's no amount of "open mindedness" logical fallacy excuse that can excuse the sell out that happened. I dig the Black Album to some extent but if you weren't there, then you don't know what you're talking about
Metallica died with Cliff. He was the real talent in that band. Everything after MOP is disposable and I never listen to it unless it's foisted on me against my will by others. Whenever Enter Sandman comes on whatever terrestrial radio station I might be listening to I can't change the station quickly enough.
At least you could hear the bass, I suppose...
James is talented, Kirk stopped trying and Lars is a Muppet.
Corrections: Master Of Puppets went Gold in half a year. It took two years for it to go Platinum. and Led Zeppelin IV has also outsold the Black album. Physical Graffiti is tied with it.
Nevermind sold 30 million copies
The black album is my favourite Metallica album it's their best sounding and produced of their albums. I also really like death magnetic but don't like the last two.
that philip guy s the prime example of a short sighted guy who thinks because he learned to play guitar can look down the music of people like metallica because "its too simple", its just arrogance and a failure to really understand music, groove and above all simplicity, the most powerful concept in any art
I agree, can't stand talking music with those types.
Have fun with your boring af Metallica and AC/DC records. I think I'll stick with musicians who can play and write challenging interesting music.
Thank you for your thoughtful remark! I'll make sure to revise my train of thought hence on. Thank you for teaching me a valuable lesson 🙏🙏
I love Justice. Except for "One". That song annoys me for some reason. That was the end for me. Never liked the Black Album. I think I only listened to it once all the way through. Never even owned it on CD. Which is crazy because I was a huge Metallica fan. Didn't like what happened to James's voice. That plus the release of the "Illusions" records were a pretty big bummer for me. But GnR were really great live on the double tour. Maybe I just got lucky. Even had the pit tickets for that show. I felt Metallica were really plodding live starting around that time. Lars's drums were too loud and kinda ruined the vibe. Isn't the riff of Enter Sandman ripped off from a NWOBHM band? I really don't like Bob Rock's productions. Except for Sonic Temple. After that he made bands's simple songs sound more obvious if that makes sense? The simple style of say Motley Crue sticks out too much and brought to the forefront on Feelgood. I love the production of TFFL and SATD. It's sleazy and makes the simple rock songs not as obvious.
I don't agree with the claim that radio wasn't playing metal. Perhaps Detroit is/was a unique market, but when I was growing up in the early- to mid-90s, two of the three biggest FM stations -- WRIF and WLLZ -- would play pre-Black album Metallica, 70s Sabbath, Priest (and not just their early 80s hits), and Maiden among others. You would even hear Sabbath occasionally on the classic rock station, WCSX.
My first album is directly inspired by Justice, which I decided to do because that album has little bass; I wanted to make a Justice 2.0-With bass. My next album is going to be pure thrash. As fast as I can make it, I don't care about any bullshit standards anyone has established.
It’s a terrific album..great songs, the best sound production of all their albums and it’s heavy as hell. Only a fool would hate on this album.
Boring songs, simple song structure, and it's only heavy if you are a Madonna fan.
Yes it's so heavy I guess I'll throw away my Electric Wizard and Incantation albums... Seriously dude what kind of weak sh!t do you listen to think that the Black Album is "heavy as hell".
There was a coffee house I used to frequent that had a toilet exhaust fan that sounded exactly like the sound at the beginning of The Unforgiven. I would always come out singing. I can't imagine a world without this album. It came out the same year that I started playing guitar, and if you did not know how to play these songs, you were a nobody, heh. Luckily, as Philip pointed out they were pretty easy to play, but he thinks that makes the songs bad, I disagree, I think it makes them universal.
I’m glad you discussed this. I have long felt that Metallica owes their current level of success almost exclusively to Bob Rock. The slick production of “The Black Album” made them mainstream. I feel like they fill stadiums with 50,000 people the vast majority of which are killing time ‘til they play Sandman. I don’t feel that they’re the most talented of the Big Four, but because of that album, they’re far and away the most commercially successful. And more power to ‘em. I’m uncomfortable with anonymous online sniping when they’re more sucessful than I’ll ever be. I just feel they’re the thrash version of Def Leppard: Choosing the right producer catapulted them into the stratosphere.
They recorded it while giving a play by play of the process to RIP magazine at the time to build momentum.
Before and justice came out i really liked master of puppets. And i was always so so on and justce. But we rocked the black album
I'll always have a soft spot for the Black Album as it was the first heavy metal album I bought on cassette as an 11 year old kid and served as my introduction to the genre.
Exactly the same for me. 11 years old in 91 and loving the black album. Some awesome albums from 91 and 92 🤟
@@Guitarsngains Awesome. Sounds like you're a year older than me as I turned 11 in Feb 92 and got the album that year. So many great albums in 91 and 92 for sure. Black Album came out in Aug 91.🤘
If you don't like thrash, it's not a terrible album.
Can only listen to Enter sandman, the rest I just cannot listen too. I never bought the album, though I do have their last 3 releases
Enter Sandman, really?! This song is beaten to death, how can you even enjoy anything that has been played thousands of time over and over again? I'd rather listen to something almost forgotten from that album like songs My Friend of Misery, The God That Failed, Of Wolf and Man.
I’m sorry the Black Album is not good. I was a fan of the band when it came out and I tried to like it, but when I was honest with myself, I never really did. It’s too corporate sounding and I don’t like the songwriting. I was given a copy too so I never bought one myself. You guys can have it!
Can Martin ever make a point?
keep watching and find out!
Bought it when it came out. Turned me off the band and I never went back to them and checked out anything they did after that.
It’s the Metallica album that got me into Metallica. For that I am grateful. I went on to buy all of their studio albums that came out before and after that (with the exception of St. Anger). I probably listen to the Black album with the most regularity to this day. The God That Failed is my all-time favorite track from that album.
The God That Failed is my favourite track too. Nobody usually talks about this song, it's kind of forgotten among the famous hits, but I think it's one of the hidden jems on that album.
I saw them on the Black Album tour in Seattle, circa 1992, a lot of the audience was grumbling after the show that they had Sold out, clowning around mid show, not bringing down the house, etc .... not the eerie underground "trash" aesthetic that they had when Cliff was still alive.
They sure brought down the house in Seattle 89’. That’s one of the best shows ever.
I remember a friend bought the cassette, he played it to us and I liked Enter Sandman but really noticed the difference in their sound right away. I remember being really disappointed with the ballads and the slower, more generic riffs, I liked glam and thrash at the time, I always remembered Lars throwing the darts at the Kip Winger poster, in a documentary, calling them posers and then they released a watered down album themselves... meh, I like some of it but overall not a fan. Load & Reload were worse. They were definitely sellouts at the time but hey, it's their band, they can do what they want with it. lol I found Slayer, Pantera and Sepultura around that time and they replaced my metal fix in the 90's. Good show guys!
It's sellout garbage. I don't care if it sold tons it's boring af. They purposely dumbed down their sound and hired Bob Rock to make money. I hate this record and everything that came after it. And no it's not a Doom Metal album, oh how I wish it was, slower Heavy Metal does not equal Doom Metal.
Rex said that Vulgar Display was in reaction to the black album, because once Pantera heard the black album, they unanimously thought it sucked.
I’m a fan but I’m glad you guys discussed the silliness of their name. I first saw “Metallica” listed in an early 80s guitar or rock magazine along with other young bands to be on the lookout for and at the time I just thought “Seriously? That sounds like a joke name or a parody band. Only a 9 year old would name his band that.” But like anything, once you get big things just get accepted and taken for granted and not thought about any more. “
“The Police” is like that for me too. Instantly when people namecheck them now you think about all the hits and the famous band members but if you saw that name without all the successful attachments you’d say “What?? Are they kidding?” 😂
Can you imagine if your friend told you about a serious new purist blues band and when you asked their name he said “Blues-o-Rama”? 😅
That’s how it’s always come off to me.
“Metallica”??
Really????
Yeah I agree, The Police is such a stupid name if you think about it, but we got used to it and thus it doesn't bother us anymore. Another good example is the band Earth (ex-Black Sabbath), what a joke!
Personally I think it's a cool name, they do what it says on the tin, e.g. metal, the name as the genre in it, but I get the point.
But I think the name works because they became really big. If they were a second division band everyone would say, 'nice tunes but naff name'.
Other similar examples from other genres include Funkadelic and a certain sixties popular beat combo from Liverpool, who may have influenced the album cover and title!