How To Play Against 3-Bets In And Out Of Position
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- Опубліковано 24 січ 2017
- It's not always clear cut what to do when you raise first in and get 3-bet. How do you know when it is appropriate to flat, and when you can exploit your opponent with a 4-bet? The answers to these questions are crucial to your success on the felt, and raising without a plan for these contingencies can put you in some very tough spots.
Ryan Fee, co-founder of Upswing Poker, is here to break down this decision making process. First, he takes a look at how to handle this when raising in position, followed by a lesson on dealing with 3-bettors that have position on you. Parts of this lecture come straight form The Lab, including the RFI preflop tool.
Check out Ryan's article on this facing 3-bets here: www.upswingpoker.com/vs-3-bet...
Upswing Poker was founded by Ryan Fee, Doug Polk and Matt Colletta to help players learn the fundamentals and theory to becoming solid winning players. Learn poker strategy from the world's top no limit players at www.upswingpoker.com/
Great stuff Ryan, keep 'em coming.
Love the raw style of this video, it was very enjoyable to watch
Hi, Ryan. Love your videos I always learn more about the game from them. I was wondering if you could make a video where you give us some tips or guidelines on how to play 3-bet pots postflop.
Again, aamazing content, keep it up!
I keep hearing about you finally just watched a video. This is awesome content man. Kinda hope people don’t catch on lol and if they do you make a boat load of cash if it.
Thanks Ryan!!
Thanks Ryan 😀😁
I think your equity calc is off. You have to add your bet to the total pot, then divide. I’m too lazy to calculate but you’re gonna need quite a bit less equity than the 30-something percent you said.
As you pointed out though, playability DRASTICALLY alters these equity calculations. Especially deep stacked.
Thought the explanations were crystal clear and understood every word btw. Don't know what people are on about.
thank u
Thanks for the video Ryan. I guess we have to assume that these ranges presented or for cash games at 100 BB deep? Would have been nice to specify how deep we are playing. What about tournament play for example at 50 or 30BB ? I guess we won't be calling with the same hands vs 3 bets compared to cash game play at 100 BB...
So on 3 bets it’s the call size divide by the pot size to get the percentage? Like you would do on flop and turn and river.
I lasted less than 10 seconds watching this
I do like the King Nine king Jack compromise at King 10 I thought that was a reasonable thought
In which Intervall is the realisationfactor moving?
what is now better calling the 3 bet oop with T8s or KQo ?
nice video, but as a non-native english speaker I had a rough time trying to understand some parts of it. Not because of theory or anything like that, but because you talk sometimes too fast and/or too low. Nice videos though, just try to work on your talking for video. Keep it up! I think I'll subscribe to the lab!
Thanks for the feedback Ronald!
You'll be happy to know that this is a recording from a couple months ago and Ryan has since improved his process tremendously. Watch out for future Ryan videos and you'll notice the difference.
Also, you may want to check out Ryan's article on facing 3-bets here: www.upswingpoker.com/vs-3-bet-pre-flop-position-strategy-revealed/
AWESOME! Great to know that you guys keep getting better. Cheers!
Nice explanation but calling 3-bets is far from a raw equity calculation. You need to factor in rake for the lower stakes guys unless I missed something in the video. When you're out of position, you're not only going to need to take a few % off the required equity needed because players have varying skill levels (the players you coach are not as skilled as you are at recovering EV OOP), but you'll also need to take a few % off because of rake. Considering most of the guys you're directing the video to are at low stakes, this is a pretty big point to miss. If I just missed this point in the video feel free to correct me but it's something that's important enough to be stated in the very beginning.
Great vid but the mic sound to low, hard to listen
why dont you just use the MDF and apply it to your range? what the better way to defend?
I am from Spain and I understand everything
I am Australian and don't understand a thing. Horrible
18:08 my guy just said anyhoozles
hahahaha
Really not a very prepared video. A lot of talk but not much real info. Somehow it seems it came as a surprise to him that all the hands had 3x%.
wouldn't we theoretically always realize our exact raw equity if we call with the intention to be all in by the river 100% of the time ? I mean obv that's a bad strategy but does it make sense theoretically ?
Equity is the % of possible boards that will give you the best hand, which isn't precisely the same as "you will win x% of pots" (because the best hand doesn't always win), but it's a lot closer to that than "your part of a pot".
Yea, but what if they are 3-betting light to steal blinds? would 4-betting with hands like 65s and J10s be an option?
I always found Dougs and others notion regarding the combinatorics of having an Ace rag etc. while ruling out the likelihood of your opponent having an ace a little misleading. As it is something you should consider, getting attached to this idea can be sometimes harmful to your play.
-The chances of them having an ace is actually fairly good, considering they are showing strength
-If you get over your head and they do have a better ace or a pair, you are a huge underdog
-If an ace hits on the flop (1/15 times) you will most likely get stacked in a preflop 4-bet raised pot.
-It's always a possibility that you both go to showdown with ace high
I guess when 4-betting you really, really, REALLY have to know your man. Also, a lot of what I said here depends on how deep the stacks are. Usually in most regular tournaments they aren't that deep in the middle stages.
can a hand actually over realize equity? I mean I could see it it realizing 100% of equity but how can it possibly realize more?? my understanding of realizing 100% of equity is that the hand gets all the way to showdown. Maybe I'm understanding wrong?
Soon as you pull out those softwares, I’m lost.
guys if hero reaises to 2.5x and get 3bet to 8x then the blinds fold the total pot is 12 not 17, am I missing somenthing?
yes you are...8+8+1.5 (Blinds) = 17.5
Shouldn't u add some rake considerations? I mean, bc the rake you need more than 33% of equity
What is the point of calculating the equity of a 5 card run out when you're only seeing the flop and will have to call a huge c-bet just to see the turn? That is, if you hit one of your draws?
OK, thank you for the elaboration! I can't remember who said it, but he had his own poker school etc. He said when he broke down 100,000+ hands he had determined that he was DOWN money with 65s, but was up with premium hands like KK. When he decided to stop 3-betting with 65s, he found that his losses were smaller with 65, but his profits had greatly diminished with hands like KK, giving him a weaker profit overall.
That is something that I believed but never had anything to back it. I figured if you play tighter your losses with your weaker holdings would diminish but so would your win, good to see somebody actually did the research and put it out there.
A clear example that not everyone can teach.
The contest ended in less than 24 hours?
Wish I knew what language that was. Be pretty cool to understand what he's saying.
i like ryan, but geez, he is all over the place with explaining ideas/concepts as he always seems to correct himself. Very hard to folow as opposed the concise way that galfond and polk explain themselves
I disagree with this approach of choosing which hands to call with, and the reasoning being that you are choosing hands that have equity to call. but in reality folding a particular range to match that of pot odds allows for maximum playability as you are at a range disadvantage every time you call a 3 bet, and out of position is even worse.
So, here’s what I’m talking about in a nutshell: let’s say you’re playing $2,$5, and you raise to $15, someone 3 bets to $45. So say you’re getting about 3 to 1 or so (don’t have time for the math), you can fold off like 66% of your range or whatever once again not figuring up the math, of your total preflop range in the position to avoid auto profit. And folding right on the line of that range is a good idea to avoid being at a range and positional disadvantage post flop.
Ok, I'm going to need someone to explain to me why we need 33% equity to call preflop to a 3bet in his example. If we are getting 3 to 1 on our money (5.5 to win 17), then we really only need to win 1 in 4 times to break even, meaning we need 25% equity and not 33%. Am I missing something?
Mohammed Nuseibah correct! I was thinking the same thing. Pretty sure Ryan made a mistake in the video lol the most basic thing
Was this in English?
2:10
8+2.5+1+0.5 = 12 not 17. Is there something I didn't get ?
you forgot adding in the amount we call to complete the pot (IE 8-2.5, which is 5.5). Ryan says 17.5 then types in 17, because he's an idiot :P
The equity being calculated here as if all in?? You're unlikely to see all streets in a 3 bet pot obviously
Yea that’s the problem with these equity calls,like AJo does better against this 3 bet range than KQs but the latter is more playable and will realize its equity more often,he does mention this though
New title "How to make poker boring"! Sure many of you will profit from this information and I say GL my B&S'. What I would say is NEVER forget why you started playing poker in the first place was. Yep, that's right, because it was FUN :) LOVE U GUY's
lee cook its more fun when you win
lee cook losing must be really fun to you brah
id like to know how they will profit by this information. Is this for online play. I play live and most of the live donks are only 3 betting AA and KK. I don't get it
what about non donks?
you make a read (range) on your opponent. I play by feel. I guess that's why I should realize all the technical isn't for me. its the wild west at the commerce.
The Audio Volume is too low
Not trying to criticize, lots of Good info here. But I would suggest it was presented in a rambling manner.
ummm what?
They do not prepare whatsoever before filming their videos. Unprofessional
so basically if you get three bet you should just buy some computer software and get your 33% or more Equity and make the call, I wonder how many graphs you have to look at to play post-flop
The main program Ryan used in this video is Equilab, which is free and can be downloaded at: www.pokerstrategy.com/poker-software-tools/equilab-holdem/
The goal is not to memorize the exact ranges or equity numbers, but to look at the difference between absolute equity of various hands vs. various ranges, and use that information to figure out WHY some hands make better calls (or 4 bets) than others. If you take nothing away from this video other than the rules about which hands are more likely to realize equity at 14:50 , you will have a great starting point for constructing your strategy facing 3bets.
Ryan's example of Q9s having significantly more equity than K9s, at least when our opponent 3bets AK but not AQ, is a really good lesson but the actual hands are not very important. The useful conclusion that you can draw from this is that hands which are dominated by a significant portion of our opponents range will be worse calls than those which are more likely to have 2 live cards. This is even before considering equity realization or reverse implied odds.
If you are looking to memorize some ranges, I find memorizing the weakest hands in each category of a range to be easier than memorizing the whole range. For example, I find it much easier to think about a range of 66+ pairs, A5s, A8s+ suited aces, all suited hands with two cards higher than a nine, 76s+ suited connectors, and the 4 strongest offsuit hands, than I do to think about a range of 66+, A8s+, A5s, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, AJ+, KQ.
Like most things in poker, once you have played and/or studied enough to not be an absolute beginner, it is much more useful to understand how and why we make our decisions, rather than being told what decision we should make in a given 3bet spot. Trying to memorize specific answers will be more likely to give you a headache than improve your game. Learning how to figure these spots out for yourself, and putting in the time to solve a few scenarios on your own (no software needed, pen and paper can accomplish just as much with some high school level math and a few hours of free time), will be much more productive, and much more profitable.
Good Luck!
SkillGame hey thanks a lot, I appreciate your analysis of the analysis and as long as I've been playing poker, there's always stuff for me to learn, so again, thank you, that was a nicely laid out reply, I appreciate you taking the time to help.
+ROCKY BULLSHITE my pleasure bro. I love discussing things with people that share my passion for this game.
SkillGame online poker is illegal in Louisiana so I'll play free tournaments on PokerStars or something to keep my game fresh in between live cash games, holla at me if you ever want to play some heads up online. I would play cash but you'd have to come to Louisiana lol
"Ryan's example of Q9s having significantly more equity than K9s, at least when our opponent 3bets AK but not AQ, is a really good lesson but the actual hands are not very important. The useful conclusion that you can draw from this is that hands which are dominated by a significant portion of our opponents range will be worse calls than those which are more likely to have 2 live cards. This is even before considering equity realization or reverse implied odds."
real good point to make. counter intuitive but it's true
You do know calculators are not allowed at table during play.
Is a written strategy on paper allowed?
What
It's a fact ryan fee paid Doug Polk to promote him.
gg KID
I'm sorry, interesting vid but the audio volume was shit.
Oh dude turn up your volume nobody can hear you
Make it louder
what a mess
You talk too fast man, im portuguese.
adjust the speed in the settings
at .75 he sounds normal
Horrible dribble
Try captions?
Talk louder
Please talk slower and more clearly
Video too long you need to talk faster
PLEASE Mr Fee stop the ums and the ever hated but-ums, also try to enunciate every word which will help with your mumbles. Thanks for the videos and please don't take my comment as me trying to be a dick, I'm just giving my advice which by no means do I think is anything special. I'm sure doing these videos are not as easy as it looks. Just like my job is more difficult then it sounds. Iwork for a company who sells lint to suit makers for their pockets.
sometimes you speak normal but sometimes you whisper some words, it's difficult to catch up
great player, terrible teacher....