It probably depends on what your DAC is optimized for. One of my DACs is supposed to be designed to work best with USB. My other DAC is supposed to optimized for optical. But I’ve also used coax, and they all sound good through my system.
Paul has a great demeanor. I enjoy his videos and the ensuing discussion. Digital streaming is great, but there are a lot of alternatives. Interesting to see all the approaches people use.
There is also the BNC coax plug and socket which uses a shielded outer conductor with an inner core conductor. Also called Serial Digital Interface (SDI). Fairlight and Avid make PCIe cards for audio capture/recording and playback. Similar to Pro Video and Time Code Clock interfaces.
I first connected my laptop to my DAC using an 18 inch USB cable. Then for convenience I got a 15 foot USB (same manufacturer) so I could have the laptop next to my listening spot. The degradation in sound quality was severe, so I went back to 18 inch.
I'm fortunate that I can not tell much difference between the different digital inputs. I just use what is available to me. Would have been nice for him to cover I2S and the gotcha's of I2S.
I would at least pick a DAC that has the ability of running separate power supply if you're using USB (some switch off the USB power when external is connected). It's kind of hard though to know the limitations, I believe USB have standards for cable length (and 5 meters isn't a problem for that), but one test I saw on USB cables showed a difference in audio and that was in a much shorter distance. 🤷🏼♂️ Coax/SPIDF have other limitations... 🤔 I'm using USB myself now (used to run upgraded sound card with internal DAC), I picked a relatively cheap DAC with external PSU and I use Supra cable(s). Unless you can buy everything top of the line, then it might be a matter of finding the 'cheap' parts/devices that will cause the least problem/bottleneck; product Y might be better with USB and product X might be better with SPIDF. 🙂
Gordon in Croatia: Your choice of which cable type to use should be based on the design qualities of each of your DAC's inputs. How the manufacturer engineered one input can vary wildly as to how they engineered one of its other inputs. The parts they use for one input vs. another input can vary wildly. The above variances might also be negligible. The only ways to find out is to do deep dive research, or test both inputs and let your ears decide. For USB, do not go over 3 meters. I forget what the issue is. But you will notice that there are practically no long USB cables. Yes, 5 meter USB cables exist, because they can work, let's say, for a printer. If there are data transfer issues, where re-transmissions to your printer are needed, you will never know. Your printout might take 1 tenth of a second longer to complete, which you would not notice. But for feeding a DAC, that would be a serious issue. Beyond 3 meters is asking for trouble, when it comes to USB and a DAC. The quality of the USB cable is also critical. If you use a mass produced USB cable (for example, that comes packaged with a printer), and you use that USB cable for your DAC, you will kill the sound quality. It will be awful. If you then swap out that mass produced USB cable with a quality Audioquest USB cable, it will be night & day better sound quality. I do not know how much a coax cable affects sound quality. But similar sound quality issues might exist. If you determine that USB is the best option (has the best sound quality), then I suggest that you move your PC closer to your DAC, and use a short, quality, USB cable. If that is not an option, then I suggest the following: Purchase a mini PC, or an inexpensive laptop, that you can position close to your DAC. They can be had for under $100. Position that PC to be very close to your DAC, and install your music software, etc, on it. But then how do you control that new PC? Make sure that your new PC is running Windows 10 Pro or Windows 11 Pro. With the Pro version, you can enable "Remote Desktop Server". Then, using your existing PC, you can login and control your new PC, as if you were directly connected to your new PC. It works very smoothly. Microsoft did an outstanding job with their Remote Desktop utility. The above will allow you to use a short USB cable, between your new PC and your DAC, while you sit anywhere else and remotely control your new PC via your old PC. You just need an ordinary, standard network connection between your old PC and your new PC. It could be with an Ethernet cable, or it can be via WiFi. If you have never used Remote Desktop, it is a fantastic tool that comes with Windows. The PC (the server) that accepts the connection (in your case that would be your new PC) must be a Pro version of Windows. Any other Windows based PC, running just about any version of Windows (even Windows XP) will be able to run the "client" side of Remote Desktop and initiate the connection to your new PC. All versions of Windows include the client side of Remote Desktop, to initiate the connection to the (Pro) PC running the "server" version of Remote Desktop. Your access to your new PC, via Remote Desktop, will be seamless. It will be as if you are directly connected to your new PC. Your new PC will not need a monitor or keyboard or mouse. 100% of your new PC will be controlled remotely, from your old PC. You will need a keyboard and a mouse only once, when you turn on your new PC for the first time, to set up a login and enable the Remote Desktop Server feature. After that, you will never need a keyboard or mouse or monitor connected to that new PC -- unless it refuses to turn on, and you have to trouble-shoot. Note that on your new PC, you will have to click on a Remote Desktop Server option to tell that PC to "not" send audio back to your client (old) PC. The audio on your new PC should go to your DAC, and only the video on your new PC should go to your old PC. Effectively, you want to bring only the video (the screen) of your new PC to your old PC. If I were to run a USB cable from my laptop, where I am seated, to my DAC, I would need an 18' cable. That was out of the question. So with an old laptop sitting close to my DAC, I use a 1.5 meter USB cable. I control that laptop via Remote Desktop, as described above. It sounds great. Ideally, however, I would like to put a quality transport between the laptop and the DAC. Any direct connection between a PC and a DAC is not ideal, due to jitter and computer generated noise. A quality transport remedies that -- but costs more than I can afford.
Paul, I always thought Coax is the cable with the white dielectric with a “stinger” as the conductor and grounded at the ferrule, AKA an F type connection,used for cable TV. Are you referring to RCA cables?
Hi,.. im not sure if this is the place to ask a question, but... I would like to know if getting a bridge to create the sound signal from my pc would actually improve the sound quality. I have a bought a very cheap coax out connector that I connect to my motherboard from amazon. Do you think getting a bridge from pink faun or so would be an audible improvement? /Kristian
USB can have noise injected into it if the CPU is switching from low power to high power mode constantly… there are motherboard option to stop power saving features.
Use A Supra USB this cables is cheap, promise signal connect up to 10 m and has very good sound and splits the volt and signal cable inside. I use a 5 m Supra with an Audioquest FMJ jitterbug.
What baffles me is the noise Paul is referring to is indeed in the Ghz range, ie. inaudible to the human ear. Yet lots of folks swear that this noise has detrimental impact on sound quality... I am not too clear on this as I don't hear it on my system (USB, Coax and Toslink)
As Paul says, issues arise when this extremely high frequency inaudible noise interferes with the rest of the signal (the audible range), by introducing jitter for example
This "digital noise" problem is taken way out of context to sell audiophile snake oil. A decently designed DAC will not be affected at all from noise on the digital input.
Digital noise is caused by switching transients, and quantization. The conversion may occur at megahertz frequencies, but the effective noise is white, with component in the kilohertz (audible) spectrum.
@@kemosabe551 Then it should be clearly visible within the audio band on a lab grade scope, that would be a Tektronix TDS series. While I hardly evaluated every DAC on the market, I have yet to see on reasonable quality gear.
@@andydelle4509 Snake oil indeed, and what makes me laugh is it still based on a 1990s understanding of PCs as "noisy" and that is all that has to be said for audiophiles to go down the rabbit hole of expensive cables and gear to fix a problem that does not exist.
The SP/DIF output on soundcards is usually BOTH 3.5mm male optical and 3.5mm coax. I've been using the same coax cable I terminated myself nearly twenty years agon and I've never found a soundcard or motherboard which didn't offer digital audio outs.
I keep waiting for a manufacturer to make a mini-PC with a digital SPDIF (optical or coax) out. Would like to use a real PC in my system as a server. But so far these little PCs only have USB ports.
@rosswarren436 have you looked at putting together your own pc with parts? There are smaller form factor cases and parts available now. Could probably go super cheap on all and add a soundcard with those outputs. Once you've figured out which parts will work together the building is fairly simple by just following online tutorials. Basically lego for adults
@@danielh12345 yeah, I used to build desktop PCs back in the 1990s and early 2000s, but haven't done so in about 15 years, so I'm a little out of it. The reason I was hoping a manufacturer would make a mini-PC with SPDIF digital outputs was to use it as a music streamer/server to my audio system. USB is "OK" but SPDIF outputs can be electrically quieter since they can be isolated better. Was hoping that under the relative light load of processing audio, the fan would not have to run (much) and make noise very much, or one could be used that would be whisper quiet. Come to think of it, I wonder if a good quality soundcard with the coax and/or optical outputs are even made that would fit in this small form factor? I'll need to look into that sometime. Some people use Mini Mac laptops and their USB out jack, but those are too expensive to just leave in an audio system all the time. (And I don't want to use Apple stuff). At one time I was looking at a Raspberry Pi with a digital hat, but it seems the economics of those devices are not nearly as good as they once were a few years ago. Thanks!
@@rosswarren436 I use a Wiim Pro for streaming, could also be something to consider. I really like it. I don't have a digital library so I haven't looked deeply at if it connects to servers etc. I believe, - but no guarantee from me! - that you may be able to use it with Roon, or it was on the roadmap? Not sure. Give it a quick look maybe. I have it all on my desk so I just have it connected to my dac through spdif and the dac is also connected through usb to my pc, that allows me to use my audio system both for streaming music, or the occasional pc sound if I want it to. Works for me but your usecase is different with the server part I guess. This thing has an ethernetport too but I'm not sure if that's for connecting it to a server or just for internet. P.s. I've tried both spdif and usb from my pc to DAC and there's no audible difference at all for me. (X570 MSI tomahawk Wifi motherboard if that matters)
Most computers have really bad grounding. Usually due to paint being in places it should not be, being portable, or expecting a ground from an unused port. AC hum is on 80% of the pcs I've ever used over headphones. Making a ground lift power cable is normally the only way around it. I'm still astounded by how many amps, dacs, and pre/pros are 2 pin only, thinking the ground will be in the chain somewhere else. Everyone using a pc for music should spend the time, sand off some paint on the case, on the power supply, and then run a small wire from one of the motherboard mounting screws or holes to the case and the power supply (3 pin). This is absolutely required if you bult your pc. Less so if it's a mass market brand. Laptops on the other hand should be ground isolated, and battery powered dacs are the best option.
Doesn't getting a decent quality powersupply for your pc solve all those issues? All the electrical components are connected to that so I'd assume it would all be fine then? (I don't have a clue about this stuff, so please enlighten me, always looking to learn :) )
It seems to be equally difficult to get a digital signal to a DAC in terms of what you need to spend on high end cabling, to me it makes sense just to stick with a well designed integrated player and take a high quality analogue output directly from it.
But that's the point of digital signal transmission. As long as the signal is getting to the DAC error free, the cable is good. And if there are errors, they are not subtle. Any $5 USB or 75ohm RCA cable is as good as it gets.
@andydelle4509 If only any old cable was seen to be good enough to get the supposedly resilient digital signal from source to DAC. All these noise and jitter issues seem to completely defeat the object and we're still no better off. Having a very short internal signal path to the DAC would hopefully negate much of this but having an extra box (DAC) and then still needing to spend on expensive coax doesn't stack up to me.
@@jezoakley9765 Noise and jitter issues on digital cables is noise alright. Noise made by those attempting to extract money from your wallet. Find an engineer who actually understands the subject and stop wasting your money. Any interconnect that delivers the bitstream to the DAC is as good as any other cable that does the same thing.
@@Geerladenlad Same as SPDIF. There are some insignificant minor differences like SPDIF is 600mv and AES-3 is 1 volt and the AES stream may be using some extra bits which consumer gear ignores anyway. 110ohm balanced AES over XLR connectors does need a $50 transformer adapter to feed SPDIF or 75ohm AES-3 using BNC connectors, But be assured they all sound exactly the same.
@@fasteddy664 No, that's just wrong.. Both support the same dude up to 192kHz.. I know because every PC I ever owned woth a optical output could send 192kHz out.. Theoreticly it can even go ALOT higher since it's optical.. The same thickness optical cable as I use from my PC to amp supports several thousand bits in other types if system. Like fiber optical internet and so on.. Optical is light.. Coax is a normal cable.. Everyone knows optical can handle more. But the spdif standard restricts it (in short). And also a bit older amp/reciver etc often supports just 96kHz input via optical and coax. So the limitation is not even from the cable itself..
Try both. The cables shouldn't be expensive. There is no reason to buy expensive digital cables.. Either way, you theoretically shouldn't hear any difference. However, if the USB doesn't have noise, than it may sound a little bit better. The difference between usb and spdif, is that usb allows the receiving device to set the clock, while spdif uses the transmitting device to set the clock. Best case scenario, there's no difference. But depending on your DAC, you may get less jitter with usb. You'll never have more with usb, but I guess in some cases, it is more prone to transmit ground noise.
High quality cable isolation is necessary as well as high quality conductor, especially if we have one way transfer (as Mr McGowan have mentioned). Digital signal isn't strong enough to have immunity to RF hum or cable imperfections
On some USB powered DAC's, noise on the USB 5V line can also be a problem, in a recent video, Paul mentioned adding a USB hub (powered from a clean DC source) can help - sure did at my end. Recently I also tried a USB power injector, run from a nice linear power supply, even better, although I'm only talking USB powered DAC's here, not big hulking AC powered PS audio boxes etc. (right out of my $$$ grade)
No, ideally you want like Paul says a galvanically isolated dac ior add a USB noise filter. A wireworld Chroma isnt going to make much of a difference if any
I spend most of my money on cables. I do make sure we have food in the house. If the kids want to go to Disney World or to a cheaper amusement park; they only go if I've had my cable fix. Disney World isn't going anywhere. It'll still be there; The Green Sepent Mk. II cable might not be I'd rather live right next door to Audioquest. They're all over the house. They look like snakes when they're lying on the floor. I would love to have an entire wall of cables. I've started on it already. It doesn't look as nice as a wall of headphones, which we've some others have, but if tied into a circle using a bread tie, each cable can be an attractive wall hanging when not in use improving your sound. No Grand Canyon this year; there's a vintage Audioquest Colorado model cable for sale.
The answer surprises me (but I have not done extensive comparisons): USB is bidirectional thus has a way to manage package loss, and most relevant to SQ: the receiver (ie DAC) manages the data transfer, also timing. Also I would assume USB is by design better isolated with respect to noise, the only problem is the source, the PC, which normally is noisy and requires to be isolated from hifi as good as it gets. Get a used pro-ject stream box ultra as a front end to the dac and stream from pc via network. Probably cheaper than a very good Spdif card & psu and grrreat coax cable of 5m length, and most likely ground loop filter.
I'm surprised that Paul didn't recomment the PS Audio 'LAN Rover' here, since this purported to solve the problem of long cable runs from computers (USB to ethernet to USB) - also providing galvanic isolation of DAC from computer (ua-cam.com/video/nQjJke5uM2g/v-deo.html). It was apparently made by a 3rd party and no longer seems to be available - is this because there were subsequent 'issues' with the claims or for some other reason?
While I moved to an HDMI audio signal several years ago on my main PC/audio station, all of my other machines are wired to a home audio amplifier via TOSlink/SPDIF. Most motherboards for decades have included TOSlink/SPDIF-out, and SPDIF has always been vastly more reliable (at any cable length) than USB audio, and fiber/TOSlink handles longer runs VASTLY better than any USB standard you'd be likely to use
As long as the bits that leave the source are the same bits that arrive at the DAC it makes no difference whatsoever which connection and protocol does the transfer. I hate to argue with Paul but there is so much disinformation out there concerning digital audio that I have to point out that this is asynch file transfer, with any modern DAC. Unless the designers of the DAC were idiots there is not going to be any "noise" from the source bothering the conversion over USB, coax or tin cans and string.
Been playing with various digital ins and outs for over a decade... USB audio is still hard to implement properly on a budget dac. Some PC setups and players dont play well with some dac usb drivers. Noise can be a real problem and cause glitches. Once setup right, with a DAC that has a good USB input, it does sound clearer and higher resolution than spdif or optical. I would investigate both routes if possible since spdif is always better than bad usb. .... Cables: some expensive cables do not come with a USB compliance cert. Avoid. I can recommend Supra cable if you want fancy and affordable.
I don't get it. I am recording my own music these days, finally after 20 years, I can tell you my own recordings have never sounded different after passing through any number of cables, USB or otherwise, at any length, at any time and place. Spend your time, money, and worries elsewhere in this hobby, you'll be happier for it.
Normal consumer level people wont hear it correct. But if you an audiophile that listens on a high end system you will hear all the noise from usb. I can even hear the difference from RCA vs XLR blanced connections
USB is a 2 way communication system, and is not deaigned for audio in mind, so SPDIF was designed, and now i2s which is even better, as it reclocks the audio signal
I’ve tried two different AudioQuest USB filters and both degraded the sound quality. Thankfully Crutchfield refunded my money both times. Running Windows 10 laptop to Marantz dac/streamer. Never again.
@@tacofortgens3471 I run a usb from pc to the RME Adi-2 DAC, and even using the IEM output with IEMs I hear nothing, and the timbre of my own instruments are unchanged; so I remain unconvinced.
I tell you one thing, if I could go back 30 years to when I left Highschool I believe I would get into the Hifi Cable business. Preying on people's lack of knowledge, their fear of missing out on something, and some "audiophiles" that just have too much money they don't know what to do with it. The cable industry is big money..although I've never quite understood why anyone would want anything other than a cable that just passes 100% of the signal with no degradation. Only issue should be Shielded or Unshielded...but wtf do I know 🤷
no shit, it is amazing how easy it is to open the door for audiophiles to make up their own rationalizations on why they need better cables. I also think a lot of it goes back to the general distrust of most things digital being in need to fixing, which is about as boomeresque as it gets.
You mean to tell me now after I spent the entire night with my ear listening to my USB cable for noise 😳 I am such an idiot for believing everything I read in the comments.. Including my own comments. 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀
It probably depends on what your DAC is optimized for. One of my DACs is supposed to be designed to work best with USB. My other DAC is supposed to optimized for optical. But I’ve also used coax, and they all sound good through my system.
Paul has a great demeanor. I enjoy his videos and the ensuing discussion. Digital streaming is great, but there are a lot of alternatives. Interesting to see all the approaches people use.
Paul, Each of your videos tells me I'm doing things right. Thank you, D.
There is also the BNC coax plug and socket which uses a shielded outer conductor with an inner core conductor. Also called Serial Digital Interface (SDI). Fairlight and Avid make PCIe cards for audio capture/recording and playback. Similar to Pro Video and Time Code Clock interfaces.
Thank You for all your videos.
Ardian from Kosova
"I'm Mr Meeseeks! Look at me!"
I first connected my laptop to my DAC using an 18 inch USB cable. Then for convenience I got a 15 foot USB (same manufacturer) so I could have the laptop next to my listening spot. The degradation in sound quality was severe, so I went back to 18 inch.
I'm fortunate that I can not tell much difference between the different digital inputs. I just use what is available to me. Would have been nice for him to cover I2S and the gotcha's of I2S.
I would at least pick a DAC that has the ability of running separate power supply if you're using USB (some switch off the USB power when external is connected).
It's kind of hard though to know the limitations, I believe USB have standards for cable length (and 5 meters isn't a problem for that), but one test I saw on USB cables showed a difference in audio and that was in a much shorter distance. 🤷🏼♂️
Coax/SPIDF have other limitations... 🤔
I'm using USB myself now (used to run upgraded sound card with internal DAC), I picked a relatively cheap DAC with external PSU and I use Supra cable(s).
Unless you can buy everything top of the line, then it might be a matter of finding the 'cheap' parts/devices that will cause the least problem/bottleneck; product Y might be better with USB and product X might be better with SPIDF. 🙂
Depends on transport one thing I noticed about cd players is they sound amazing with Coax to an R2R dac which was made for 💿 and still Digital 🤴
iMac's have toslink output via the 3.5mm headphone jack output.
Gordon in Croatia:
Your choice of which cable type to use should be based on the design qualities of each of your DAC's inputs.
How the manufacturer engineered one input can vary wildly as to how they engineered one of its other inputs.
The parts they use for one input vs. another input can vary wildly.
The above variances might also be negligible. The only ways to find out is to do deep dive research, or test both inputs and let your ears decide.
For USB, do not go over 3 meters. I forget what the issue is. But you will notice that there are practically no long USB cables. Yes, 5 meter USB cables exist, because they can work, let's say, for a printer. If there are data transfer issues, where re-transmissions to your printer are needed, you will never know. Your printout might take 1 tenth of a second longer to complete, which you would not notice. But for feeding a DAC, that would be a serious issue.
Beyond 3 meters is asking for trouble, when it comes to USB and a DAC.
The quality of the USB cable is also critical. If you use a mass produced USB cable (for example, that comes packaged with a printer), and you use that USB cable for your DAC, you will kill the sound quality. It will be awful. If you then swap out that mass produced USB cable with a quality Audioquest USB cable, it will be night & day better sound quality.
I do not know how much a coax cable affects sound quality. But similar sound quality issues might exist.
If you determine that USB is the best option (has the best sound quality), then I suggest that you move your PC closer to your DAC, and use a short, quality, USB cable. If that is not an option, then I suggest the following:
Purchase a mini PC, or an inexpensive laptop, that you can position close to your DAC. They can be had for under $100. Position that PC to be very close to your DAC, and install your music software, etc, on it. But then how do you control that new PC?
Make sure that your new PC is running Windows 10 Pro or Windows 11 Pro. With the Pro version, you can enable "Remote Desktop Server". Then, using your existing PC, you can login and control your new PC, as if you were directly connected to your new PC. It works very smoothly. Microsoft did an outstanding job with their Remote Desktop utility.
The above will allow you to use a short USB cable, between your new PC and your DAC, while you sit anywhere else and remotely control your new PC via your old PC. You just need an ordinary, standard network connection between your old PC and your new PC. It could be with an Ethernet cable, or it can be via WiFi.
If you have never used Remote Desktop, it is a fantastic tool that comes with Windows.
The PC (the server) that accepts the connection (in your case that would be your new PC) must be a Pro version of Windows. Any other Windows based PC, running just about any version of Windows (even Windows XP) will be able to run the "client" side of Remote Desktop and initiate the connection to your new PC. All versions of Windows include the client side of Remote Desktop, to initiate the connection to the (Pro) PC running the "server" version of Remote Desktop.
Your access to your new PC, via Remote Desktop, will be seamless. It will be as if you are directly connected to your new PC. Your new PC will not need a monitor or keyboard or mouse. 100% of your new PC will be controlled remotely, from your old PC. You will need a keyboard and a mouse only once, when you turn on your new PC for the first time, to set up a login and enable the Remote Desktop Server feature. After that, you will never need a keyboard or mouse or monitor connected to that new PC -- unless it refuses to turn on, and you have to trouble-shoot.
Note that on your new PC, you will have to click on a Remote Desktop Server option to tell that PC to "not" send audio back to your client (old) PC. The audio on your new PC should go to your DAC, and only the video on your new PC should go to your old PC. Effectively, you want to bring only the video (the screen) of your new PC to your old PC.
If I were to run a USB cable from my laptop, where I am seated, to my DAC, I would need an 18' cable. That was out of the question. So with an old laptop sitting close to my DAC, I use a 1.5 meter USB cable. I control that laptop via Remote Desktop, as described above. It sounds great.
Ideally, however, I would like to put a quality transport between the laptop and the DAC. Any direct connection between a PC and a DAC is not ideal, due to jitter and computer generated noise. A quality transport remedies that -- but costs more than I can afford.
😮😢
I do not know any PC with coax. Whould it best to use optical fiber for long distances?
Paul, I always thought Coax is the cable with the white dielectric with a “stinger” as the conductor and grounded at the ferrule, AKA an F type connection,used for cable TV. Are you referring to RCA cables?
Hi,.. im not sure if this is the place to ask a question, but...
I would like to know if getting a bridge to create the sound signal from my pc would actually improve the sound quality. I have a bought a very cheap coax out connector that I connect to my motherboard from amazon. Do you think getting a bridge from pink faun or so would be an audible improvement?
/Kristian
My source is Tidal app on smartphone that has only USB-C. I just need a small cable but what is better? Coaxial converter or USB direct cable?
USB can have noise injected into it if the CPU is switching from low power to high power mode constantly… there are motherboard option to stop power saving features.
Maybe hes got a USB to spidf converter or a studio grade sound card
Use A Supra USB this cables is cheap, promise signal connect up to 10 m and has very good sound and splits the volt and signal cable inside. I use a 5 m Supra with an Audioquest FMJ jitterbug.
What baffles me is the noise Paul is referring to is indeed in the Ghz range, ie. inaudible to the human ear. Yet lots of folks swear that this noise has detrimental impact on sound quality... I am not too clear on this as I don't hear it on my system (USB, Coax and Toslink)
As Paul says, issues arise when this extremely high frequency inaudible noise interferes with the rest of the signal (the audible range), by introducing jitter for example
This "digital noise" problem is taken way out of context to sell audiophile snake oil. A decently designed DAC will not be affected at all from noise on the digital input.
Digital noise is caused by switching transients, and quantization. The conversion may occur at megahertz frequencies, but the effective noise is white, with component in the kilohertz (audible) spectrum.
@@kemosabe551 Then it should be clearly visible within the audio band on a lab grade scope, that would be a Tektronix TDS series. While I hardly evaluated every DAC on the market, I have yet to see on reasonable quality gear.
@@andydelle4509 Snake oil indeed, and what makes me laugh is it still based on a 1990s understanding of PCs as "noisy" and that is all that has to be said for audiophiles to go down the rabbit hole of expensive cables and gear to fix a problem that does not exist.
The SP/DIF output on soundcards is usually BOTH 3.5mm male optical and 3.5mm coax.
I've been using the same coax cable I terminated myself nearly twenty years agon and I've never found a soundcard or motherboard which didn't offer digital audio outs.
Verry old but how about TOS Link?
Paul, FYI: most modern sound cards have digital output. I have used spdif output for over 20 years on my PC. 👍🏻
#metoo
I keep waiting for a manufacturer to make a mini-PC with a digital SPDIF (optical or coax) out. Would like to use a real PC in my system as a server. But so far these little PCs only have USB ports.
@rosswarren436 have you looked at putting together your own pc with parts? There are smaller form factor cases and parts available now. Could probably go super cheap on all and add a soundcard with those outputs. Once you've figured out which parts will work together the building is fairly simple by just following online tutorials. Basically lego for adults
@@danielh12345 yeah, I used to build desktop PCs back in the 1990s and early 2000s, but haven't done so in about 15 years, so I'm a little out of it.
The reason I was hoping a manufacturer would make a mini-PC with SPDIF digital outputs was to use it as a music streamer/server to my audio system. USB is "OK" but SPDIF outputs can be electrically quieter since they can be isolated better.
Was hoping that under the relative light load of processing audio, the fan would not have to run (much) and make noise very much, or one could be used that would be whisper quiet.
Come to think of it, I wonder if a good quality soundcard with the coax and/or optical outputs are even made that would fit in this small form factor?
I'll need to look into that sometime. Some people use Mini Mac laptops and their USB out jack, but those are too expensive to just leave in an audio system all the time. (And I don't want to use Apple stuff).
At one time I was looking at a Raspberry Pi with a digital hat, but it seems the economics of those devices are not nearly as good as they once were a few years ago. Thanks!
@@rosswarren436 I use a Wiim Pro for streaming, could also be something to consider. I really like it. I don't have a digital library so I haven't looked deeply at if it connects to servers etc. I believe, - but no guarantee from me! - that you may be able to use it with Roon, or it was on the roadmap? Not sure. Give it a quick look maybe. I have it all on my desk so I just have it connected to my dac through spdif and the dac is also connected through usb to my pc, that allows me to use my audio system both for streaming music, or the occasional pc sound if I want it to. Works for me but your usecase is different with the server part I guess. This thing has an ethernetport too but I'm not sure if that's for connecting it to a server or just for internet. P.s. I've tried both spdif and usb from my pc to DAC and there's no audible difference at all for me. (X570 MSI tomahawk Wifi motherboard if that matters)
Most computers have really bad grounding. Usually due to paint being in places it should not be, being portable, or expecting a ground from an unused port.
AC hum is on 80% of the pcs I've ever used over headphones. Making a ground lift power cable is normally the only way around it.
I'm still astounded by how many amps, dacs, and pre/pros are 2 pin only, thinking the ground will be in the chain somewhere else.
Everyone using a pc for music should spend the time, sand off some paint on the case, on the power supply, and then run a small wire from one of the motherboard mounting screws or holes to the case and the power supply (3 pin).
This is absolutely required if you bult your pc. Less so if it's a mass market brand.
Laptops on the other hand should be ground isolated, and battery powered dacs are the best option.
Doesn't getting a decent quality powersupply for your pc solve all those issues? All the electrical components are connected to that so I'd assume it would all be fine then? (I don't have a clue about this stuff, so please enlighten me, always looking to learn :) )
It seems to be equally difficult to get a digital signal to a DAC in terms of what you need to spend on high end cabling, to me it makes sense just to stick with a well designed integrated player and take a high quality analogue output directly from it.
But that's the point of digital signal transmission. As long as the signal is getting to the DAC error free, the cable is good. And if there are errors, they are not subtle. Any $5 USB or 75ohm RCA cable is as good as it gets.
Cable bs is the best bs.
@andydelle4509 If only any old cable was seen to be good enough to get the supposedly resilient digital signal from source to DAC. All these noise and jitter issues seem to completely defeat the object and we're still no better off. Having a very short internal signal path to the DAC would hopefully negate much of this but having an extra box (DAC) and then still needing to spend on expensive coax doesn't stack up to me.
@@jezoakley9765 Noise and jitter issues on digital cables is noise alright. Noise made by those attempting to extract money from your wallet. Find an engineer who actually understands the subject and stop wasting your money. Any interconnect that delivers the bitstream to the DAC is as good as any other cable that does the same thing.
5 meter USB is within specification.
Hi Paul how to check whether the file is extracted from cd 😂😂😂
Noise from the power circuitry of computers is most certainly audible
Coax is pcm... Beyond that i don't know, what is better? I have both
If there's a third option of Toslink optical vs coax SPDIF which one would be better?
They perform the same, I used optical for years when usb audio wasnt up to scratch. It inherently isolates your PC and DAC which is a nice bonus.
@@peterlarkin762 True, but I think Toslink isn't as good as coaxial for such long runs of cable
@@peterlarkin762 So are you saying that would be a better option than SPDIF? Does toslink offer some benefit that SPDIF doesn't?
@@peterlarkin762 What about AES/EBU?
@@Geerladenlad Same as SPDIF. There are some insignificant minor differences like SPDIF is 600mv and AES-3 is 1 volt and the AES stream may be using some extra bits which consumer gear ignores anyway. 110ohm balanced AES over XLR connectors does need a $50 transformer adapter to feed SPDIF or 75ohm AES-3 using BNC connectors, But be assured they all sound exactly the same.
Always coax.
I would use optical...
Many desktop PCs have coax via a dedicated 3,5mm and some even a RCA.
Optical can only support up to 96khz, Coax is 192khz
@@fasteddy664 No, that's just wrong.. Both support the same dude up to 192kHz.. I know because every PC I ever owned woth a optical output could send 192kHz out..
Theoreticly it can even go ALOT higher since it's optical.. The same thickness optical cable as I use from my PC to amp supports several thousand bits in other types if system. Like fiber optical internet and so on.. Optical is light.. Coax is a normal cable.. Everyone knows optical can handle more.
But the spdif standard restricts it (in short).
And also a bit older amp/reciver etc often supports just 96kHz input via optical and coax.
So the limitation is not even from the cable itself..
Exactly, the big BUT at the end lol. My CXNV2 streamer only supports 96KHZ on optical (as do most implementations).
@@fasteddy664 Most newer implemantations I have seen supports 192kHz optical.
Try both. The cables shouldn't be expensive. There is no reason to buy expensive digital cables.. Either way, you theoretically shouldn't hear any difference. However, if the USB doesn't have noise, than it may sound a little bit better. The difference between usb and spdif, is that usb allows the receiving device to set the clock, while spdif uses the transmitting device to set the clock. Best case scenario, there's no difference. But depending on your DAC, you may get less jitter with usb. You'll never have more with usb, but I guess in some cases, it is more prone to transmit ground noise.
High quality cable isolation is necessary as well as high quality conductor, especially if we have one way transfer (as Mr McGowan have mentioned). Digital signal isn't strong enough to have immunity to RF hum or cable imperfections
USB signals are 'balanced' so twisted-pair (USB cables) is better than coax.
Dear Mr. Paul,
Can I use rca from computer instead?
You can but you won't be using the external DAC as the signal will have already been convered by your PC sound card
On some USB powered DAC's, noise on the USB 5V line can also be a problem, in a recent video, Paul mentioned adding a USB hub (powered from a clean DC source) can help - sure did at my end.
Recently I also tried a USB power injector, run from a nice linear power supply, even better, although I'm only talking USB powered DAC's here, not big hulking AC powered PS audio boxes etc. (right out of my $$$ grade)
Even if he's using USB2.0 then 5 metres is perfectly fine - you don't need to introduce a hub for a 5m length.
What if we use a cable like Wireworld chroma or better, does it eliminate the noise from usb?
As long as that is a very expensive cable, surely it must be an improvement.
No, ideally you want like Paul says a galvanically isolated dac ior add a USB noise filter. A wireworld Chroma isnt going to make much of a difference if any
@@hugobloemers4425 lol savage!
I spend most of my money on cables. I do make sure we have food in the house. If the kids want to go to Disney World or to a cheaper amusement park; they only go if I've had my cable fix. Disney World isn't going anywhere. It'll still be there; The Green Sepent Mk. II cable might not be I'd rather live right next door to Audioquest.
They're all over the house. They look like snakes when they're lying on the floor. I would love to have an entire wall of cables. I've started on it already. It doesn't look as nice as a wall of headphones, which we've some others have, but if tied into a circle using a bread tie, each cable can be an attractive wall hanging when not in use improving your sound. No Grand Canyon this year; there's a vintage Audioquest Colorado model cable for sale.
@@sidesup8286 🤣
The answer surprises me (but I have not done extensive comparisons): USB is bidirectional thus has a way to manage package loss, and most relevant to SQ: the receiver (ie DAC) manages the data transfer, also timing. Also I would assume USB is by design better isolated with respect to noise, the only problem is the source, the PC, which normally is noisy and requires to be isolated from hifi as good as it gets.
Get a used pro-ject stream box ultra as a front end to the dac and stream from pc via network. Probably cheaper than a very good Spdif card & psu and grrreat coax cable of 5m length, and most likely ground loop filter.
I'm surprised that Paul didn't recomment the PS Audio 'LAN Rover' here, since this purported to solve the problem of long cable runs from computers (USB to ethernet to USB) - also providing galvanic isolation of DAC from computer (ua-cam.com/video/nQjJke5uM2g/v-deo.html). It was apparently made by a 3rd party and no longer seems to be available - is this because there were subsequent 'issues' with the claims or for some other reason?
While I moved to an HDMI audio signal several years ago on my main PC/audio station, all of my other machines are wired to a home audio amplifier via TOSlink/SPDIF.
Most motherboards for decades have included TOSlink/SPDIF-out, and SPDIF has always been vastly more reliable (at any cable length) than USB audio, and fiber/TOSlink handles longer runs VASTLY better than any USB standard you'd be likely to use
As long as the bits that leave the source are the same bits that arrive at the DAC it makes no difference whatsoever which connection and protocol does the transfer. I hate to argue with Paul but there is so much disinformation out there concerning digital audio that I have to point out that this is asynch file transfer, with any modern DAC. Unless the designers of the DAC were idiots there is not going to be any "noise" from the source bothering the conversion over USB, coax or tin cans and string.
Been playing with various digital ins and outs for over a decade... USB audio is still hard to implement properly on a budget dac. Some PC setups and players dont play well with some dac usb drivers. Noise can be a real problem and cause glitches. Once setup right, with a DAC that has a good USB input, it does sound clearer and higher resolution than spdif or optical. I would investigate both routes if possible since spdif is always better than bad usb. .... Cables: some expensive cables do not come with a USB compliance cert. Avoid. I can recommend Supra cable if you want fancy and affordable.
If you use a streamer you can avoid using any regular computer at all.
You cant hear the noise, but it causes listening fatigue.
Paul just to clarify; megahertz can create harmonics noises in the audio spectrum, and it’s a possibility for people to hearing.
But at what amplitude when it's several octaves down? Not much when we are looking at RFI from a computer!
I don't get it. I am recording my own music these days, finally after 20 years, I can tell you my own recordings have never sounded different after passing through any number of cables, USB or otherwise, at any length, at any time and place. Spend your time, money, and worries elsewhere in this hobby, you'll be happier for it.
Normal consumer level people wont hear it correct.
But if you an audiophile that listens on a high end system you will hear all the noise from usb.
I can even hear the difference from RCA vs XLR blanced connections
USB is a 2 way communication system, and is not deaigned for audio in mind, so SPDIF was designed, and now i2s which is even better, as it reclocks the audio signal
I’ve tried two different AudioQuest USB filters and both degraded the sound quality. Thankfully Crutchfield refunded my money both times. Running Windows 10 laptop to Marantz dac/streamer. Never again.
@@tacofortgens3471 I run a usb from pc to the RME Adi-2 DAC, and even using the IEM output with IEMs I hear nothing, and the timbre of my own instruments are unchanged; so I remain unconvinced.
@@chungang7037you dont, but I do. It depends on how resolving your system is as well. Your system might be less resolving
Hdmi supremacy tbH
yea I have tried it out, was fine and very useful
I tell you one thing, if I could go back 30 years to when I left Highschool I believe I would get into the Hifi Cable business. Preying on people's lack of knowledge, their fear of missing out on something, and some "audiophiles" that just have too much money they don't know what to do with it. The cable industry is big money..although I've never quite understood why anyone would want anything other than a cable that just passes 100% of the signal with no degradation. Only issue should be Shielded or Unshielded...but wtf do I know 🤷
no shit, it is amazing how easy it is to open the door for audiophiles to make up their own rationalizations on why they need better cables. I also think a lot of it goes back to the general distrust of most things digital being in need to fixing, which is about as boomeresque as it gets.
Here we go again. This time it's Croatia. He's actually insulting our intelligence at this point.
Oh the noise is unbearable lol
You mean to tell me now after I spent the entire night with my ear listening to my USB cable for noise 😳
I am such an idiot for believing everything I read in the comments..
Including my own comments.
😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀😀
if you believe it is there, then it is there. Faith or lack of faith is required :P