If you can't hear this then your system isn't audiophile (ft. Audio Phil)
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- Опубліковано 28 тра 2024
- Here's a music clip with a weird thing going on. Can you hear it? Yes you can, but only if your system is audiophile.
This video is a review and is thus protected by Fair Use (USA) and Fair Dealing (UK). Kudos to Concord Music Publishing for recognising this.
Earlier video on this topic - • If you can't hear this...
Buy this track on Presto Music - www.prestomusic.com/classical...
Buy this track on Amazon - amzn.to/3UlqgaP
CHAPTERS
0:00 Chat
1:52 Audio demonstration
2:21 More chat
4:07 How to buy
4:35 Yet more chat
7:48 Audio Phil
DAVID MELLOR'S MUSIC
David Mellor's music on Bandcamp - davidmellor.bandcamp.com/
David Mellor's music on Spotify - open.spotify.com/artist/6OkaD...
Available on all good streaming services
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Disclaimer: Videos on this channel may include affiliate links and may feature software that has been received free of charge with an NFR (not for resale) licence, equipment that has been loaned or donated by a manufacturer or distributer, or equipment that has been bought for less than full retail price.
![If you can't hear this then you're not an audiophile [See description for link to followup video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/48PxwspDvrE/mqdefault.jpg)
I couldn't hear the clarinet moving until I started turning the balance knob, then I could hear it
🤣
Balance knob? As in Balance between L and R channels? That's a given
its supposed to be a joke
@@jackl7080 I figured
ya I googled It, WOW@@Jacob1451_Kapnobatai
UA-cam compression makes it harder to hear the swing from left to right. I did hear it, but it seems to settle in the middle of my sound stage.
UA-cam compression does not do anything with imaging and panning
Sorry, as already said UA-cam compression have no problem handling stereo width like this, it's most probably your room that does it.
youtube uses the Opus audio codec which at ~96kbit (its always vbr) is 'transparent' to the source material for most (99%) listeners using double blind and triple blind tests.... youtube encodes at 256kbit... technically overkill for this codec... so you are getting the sound he intends...
@mephitusincognito7918 Thanks for the info. Because of this ,I learned to trust listening comparisons.
From my limited music editing experience(instrumenal rips are my channel niche), it is likely that whenever the raw file was converted to an MP3 to be able to be uploaded to UA-cam, the audio channel export type was changed from Stereo to Mono channel. This lessens the complexity of the sound to varying degrees depending on the skill put into the raw tracks themselves
Listening on my headphones, I can hear the movement of the clarinet's image, but (to me) it's not troublesome. In fact, when you previously posted this, I liked it so much that I purchased a hi-res download of the complete album from Presto. Most of my music purchases are downloads these days. Then I ordered a copy of the CD to be sent to my older brother, who plays clarinet.
I'll ask King Charles to send you a knighthood next time I see him.
Being an American, I think I can accept an honorary CBE, but not a knighthood :)
@@AudioMasterclass
I’m grateful for this video, thank you Sir! I very much appreciate your work and knowledge.
I discovered that both I and my system are not “audiophile” (pardon my grammar).
Such a relief! Now I can focus on truly enjoying music and not endlessly search for the perfect gear (which I won’t hear anyway).
Ignorance can sometimes be bliss 😊
Track is also on Tidal with 24bit 96kHz. Clarinet is meandering and slightly "tilted" to left almost constantly. My "gear" for Pc listening: Monitor Audio MR2, Topping E30 II Lite and Fosi Audio BT20A Pro 48V only "audiophile" part is Chord's RCA .
i hear the same in my system
My DAC is showing same bits and kHz as declared by tidal@@yttrxstein4192
I agree with the general left tilt, swinging right when the musician climbs rapidly in pitch.
Wandering slightly, regardless of what gear I listen to it on.
Liking it or not liking it, is not the question. Hearing it or not hearing it, now that is the question.
Thanks for the links. These other two videos made more sense. You might want to consider hooking them up as a trilogy for newbies to your channel like I am. Keep up your good work. It is very entertaining as well as comforting to know I am not alone thinking about audio this way. Though we might disagree on exact representation of a concert hall is the only way to go. I'd like to experience both options. Sometimes I'd like to experience a concert hall and sometimes I'd like to experience a room full of artistic effects that takes me floating all around space. Enjoyment is the key and we're all different and even not always consistent. Looking forward to exploring more of your videos.
I listened on my Visaton broadband speakers (not "audiophile" but better than most computer speakers), and the effect was as clear as daylight.
Fullrange speakers are predestinated to show exactly this kind of "wandering sound obejcts". If you listen to "audiophile" 3 way speaker systems it might get harder to hear this. This is noc direct proof of "audiophile equipment". Here Mr Mellon meant the right thing although, but the case is mor diffcult and in the details lies the trap. You - as a user of a simple fr-Speaker could say he is wrong, becaus you can hear it clearly without having an audiophile system. Or you could say you do have an audiophile system, because you can hear it. --- Both is wrong, and the thesis Mr Mellon put out is to unprecise, to be undoubtful right.You see it, when u drop" If you can't hear this then your system isn't audiophile", and put instead of it : "if u hear this, your system is audiophile" .Compare it to your finding.
@@MC-jv6fs predestinated - now THERE'S a new word for you. ;)
I paid $80 for my Sony MDR-7506 cans. I can hear it clear as day. I also heard it even more clearly on a $240 pair of JBL Studio 530s. Audiophile doesn't have to be pricey.
Thanks for another brilliant video. My rather extensive experience as an amateur sound recording editor has made me realize that half of the sound is made in the editing room, and also sadly by the recording equipment if it isn't up to par. The Abba sound is an excellent example of this. The LPs don't sound like the concerts, because the concerts didn't have the after-effects the LPs had, but the brilliant editor of those sound tracks was like a chef using ingredients to make a delightful dish. I've done the same myself. Sometimes I filter out background noies, or use an equalizer to make a voice softer to the ear, or even (god forbid it) normalize/compress a recording to reduce the dynamic range of it, depending on what I want to achieve. It takes a certain kind of obsession to get it right, but I believe many sound editors have it, so most professional recordings are very good to listen to, if they are true to the original or not.
I found you yesterday by accident (thanks to the YT algorithem 👍) and what can I say: I love your way on looking on things and debunk them. I am an engineer and I can totaly relate to nearly 100% you say. Your channels saves a lot of people a lot of money 👌 And I totaly appreciate your language. I am german an can follow you easily ☺️
Good video, as always! I already purchased the track from Amazon and order the hair conditioner, can't wait to see the results on my hair style. Cheers!
It isn't audiophile-grade conditioner but it works well enough for my appearance in video. I might upgrade at some point but I'll have to ask Phil's advice first.
😂
The UA-cam clip's pleasant enough to listen to on my decidedly non-audiophile gear (PC-Fulla Schiit-Sennheiser SD600). I'm not detecting any wild hopping about of the clarinet. It might be a different story on higher-end equipment, but I'm not fussed.
The movement in that track is simply wonderful.... and I can hear it quite well - the audio comes out of my 2012 Mac Pro computer (I'm a ProTools user) via Optical converter into my MTX MX1550 audio mixer. My headphones monitor out of the mixer (I can hear the movement at this stage of my output chain), and the mixer main output runs to an inexpensive ~10yr old ONKYO receiver. My speakers are Acoustic Research TSW 210's circa 1989 (woofers replaced about 2 yrs ago as the surrounds had disintegrated). The movement is more prevalent and discernible via the TSW 210s.... and that was using the yt audio not the FLAC.
I have boxes in front of one of my speakers and a gig bag in front of the other.
I think I will have to revisit this another day....
I don't want an audiophile system.
I want an ACCURATE system.
Listening on my PC currently - I can tell that the clarinet is mostly off to the left when listening through my speakers but I can definitely position it much better through my headphones and can clearly hear it moving around. Speakers are Audioengine A2+ with a Cambridge Audio sub hooked up to them and my headphones are a pair of Philips Fidelio X2HR, both are hooked up to a Creative Soundblaster DAC.
I think there is an aspect of our own understanding of music which can colour how we listen to it. I doubt this is a thing for everyone but it's definitely a thing for me as a drummer because I definitely remember starting to hear music differently when I started to learn and understand the drums better. I think that I tend to pick up on weird imaging stuff with drums more as a result since it's often pretty obvious to me if I am listening to a drummer who is playing in a bit of a weird way or on a non-standard kit set up as the imaging will not process properly in my head when I try to unpick what is going on (assuming the recording reflects how the kit is physically set up). Could be unique to the drums as they are an instrument made up of several small components which are normally spread out physically amongst an audio mix but I wonder with this sort of a song whether someone who is familiar with the clarinet will hear it a bit different and be better able to work out what is going on with the imaging in their head.
I have two go to reference recordings when I want to check my systems stereo sound staging. One is on vinyl and the other is a CD - both are excellent workout pieces for any kit. my reference pieces are:-
1. The LP is - Peter Appleyards "Per-cus-sive Jazz" with postscript on the cover "Doctored for Super Stereo"
a. Track one side one "The Man With The Golden Arm"
b. Track two side one "The Man Who Got Away"
2. The CD is from the box set "Complete Blue Horizon Box67-69 by Fleetwood Mac" The Pious Bird of Good omen CD track two "Rambling Pony"
These really help me with speaker positioning and in my view would highlight any issues with the system such as crispness / definition or timing between my four sets of speakers .
I would not say the tracks by Peter Appleyard are ones I would just listen to because they are very demanding tracks to listen to with driving rhythms percussive attacks with swift decays being punctuated by contrasting sounds such as trumpets bursting in then fading or bass sax rumbling then crescendoing only to be overtaken by something else all moving through the stereo landscape - deliberate extremes designed to trip up a poor performing system.
The Fleetwood mac Rambling pony is similar but a little less percussive or roving around the sound scape but the recording has just an incredible solid fixed positioning with the largest hardest sound contrast - so crisp and punchy with a constant and even driving drum beat that doesn't waver but clearly demonstrates to the listener the sound is from a real set of drums and although metronome perfect conveys this is a human being creating this sound and dot a drum machine.
Do other subscribers / commenters have similar go to recordings?
I can hear exactly what you mean, the clarinet is all over the place when listening on my B&W 702-S2's. Im not a recording engineer, but I understand what you mean when you describe the recording setup. Some of the most pleasing music I've heard are those recorded using the Blumlein method. I can feel the acoustics of the room in which the recordings took place, there is a great feeling of depth. I wish more recordings were made that way.
Do you have any examples of those most pleasing recordings? Im interested! Thanks
This is a great and thought-provoking pair of videos! I agree, music systems should be pleasing and enjoyable, not simply clinical. I’m listening on a Marantz 1060 that my father bought before I was born. I restored and recapped it and paired it with some Klipsch RB-61 IIs. It’s not just pleasing to listen to, but has a tremendous amount of nostalgia and accomplishment tied to it, which makes it more pleasing for me than another setup that may outperform it.
My Leak w Q acoustics can def tell its there jumping around left to right to left in that clip...the final section his scale goes up and pans from left through middle to the right and comes forward and sounds wonderful *cheer*
I like the changes of location and dynamics, audible and not overwhelming.
Proud owner of speakers and amp I like /chuckle.
*edited for spelling
OK, I found this a month after it was published so, for what it's worth, I hear the clarinet mainly toward the left side of the soundstage, sometimes moving right to left by what would be a meter or so on the stage, with a few notes popping out way on the right. This was a useful experience in that I found my earbuds required a balance change a few decibels to the right, determined by listening in mono. I'll be looking into buying a good pair of headphones.
Listening on an edition xs, I hear the clarinettist make big mouvements on the long notes at the end of his phrases, often to the left. The busy passages are more contained to the center image.
It doesn't sound like being at the concert but more like being just in front of the soloist, very fun !
Listening in quad stereo it's playing within its own little space, it does move slightly but not leaping from left to right. It's also placed off center to my ears, a bit to the left. I think the stereo placement is a little bit more pronounced with this setup so I doubt many would hear it on normal stereo speakers unless the spacing between speakers is huge, then it's likely it has a big hole in the center stereo image as well.
When I turn up the volume I can hear the clicks of the valves and the air noises, these do jump around. To the ear the spatial cues are in the higher frequencies, exactly where those clicks and air noise happens, that makes it sound as though it jumps around. At lower levels I don't hear these and the jumping from left to right stops.
With earphones Beyerdynamic DT770 pro 80 Ohm the same thing with the slightly mid left placement, but sometimes you hear the air outlet of the valves which you can hear in the extreme right and sometimes in the extreme left. Since it's breath/white noise type of sound it doesn't have much of a coherent phase and doesn't sound 'spatial' on headphones. Maybe this makes it as though it jumps from left to right and back in an instant. Otherwise the clarinet stays put within 1m and sounds about 4m away, while the breath type of sound sounds as though it's 10cm away. Clearly this is a placement of some of the mikes around the clarinet, or maybe directly on the clarinet. Wet and dry recordings are mixed and resulted in difference in stereo image with extreme left/right clicks and a more normal sound farther away with less pronounced left/right sensitivity. Maybe they used stereo mikes at very close range and didn't mixed it down to mono or just using one channel and placed it near the 'wet' recording in the DAW. Something like that.
With my Etymotic HF5 in ear headphones that breath sound is really pronounced and shrill. But the placement of the lower frequencies/base frequency mainly stays put within a meter or so.
I'm glad my system isn't up to audiophile spec, that would really ruin my listening enjoyment ;)
If you're hearing all that already any further upgrade could be dangerous.
@@AudioMasterclass Blimey, you're right!
Thanks for confirming the slight left center bias.
"sometimes you hear the air outlet of the valves which you can hear in the extreme right and sometimes in the extreme left" -> now I know what were those. Those were annoying. level.
Using HD6XX/Aeon Open X
Hmmm...Loaded the Hi-Res track sampled from Amazon Prime into Audacity, split the stereo track and alternate solo playing of the tracks. The Clarinet doesn't fade in and out and remains centered.
I did hear the first violinist break wind during repetition of the exposition
This is only PART of what makes a speaker, an Audiophile grade speaker. When I first got hold of a pair of Audiophile speakers... one of the thing that shocked me the most... was that the speakers Vanished. Meaning... it sounded like the sounds, were coming from the 3d points in space... rather than directionally from speakers. If you blindfolded someone, they literally wouldnt have been able to locate these speakers. Thats how Holographic they are, in their projection and accuracy. The next thing that blew my mind... which is even more Relevant, is when I was listening to a piece of 80s music.. that I previously could not fully understand the singers lyrics at a particular point of the song. With the Audiophile speakers, I was not only able to Understand then lyrics... but there was so much separation and detail... that there was No straining nor Question about what the lyrics were! This is because a high quality driver set... can control the cone with FAR more precision... and thus, the instruments and vocals.. do not get Blended and Muddied into each other. They remain separate entities, and remain crystal clear...
Even more importantly... is if the Speakers can play complex music at very loud volume levels... and still retain crystal clear details and separation. For example... listening to well known classic Disco songs from "Earth, Wind and Fire". These songs have a TON of different instruments all playing at the same time... and all very dynamic and detailed... as well as many different singers, often singing at the same time. With standard low fidelity speakers... a lot of the details will be muddied together... and even more so.. at higher volume levels. But GOOD audiophile speakers have much more Powerful magnets and Coils... and as such, they can control the Cone so well... that there is virtually no distortions at all.
There are some other aspects of Audiophile grade speakers... as not all of them are made equally. Ported speakers, IMO... no matter how good the drivers are... will produce a droning and Artificial sounding Bass. My personal experience, is that Sealed speakers, produced some of the best sounding bass that Ive ever experienced. Followed next by Speakers that use Passive Radiators (which can give a stronger and more exciting bass experience, at med. to higher volume levels). Ive not heard Open Baffle speakers yet... so I cant comment about their Bass / Performance. That said, I did make a mini set of speakers as a test... and they had an open back. They performed better Opened, than when I tried to install a back panel. Of course, Im no speaker designer... and was merely positioning the wood in such ways, until I got the sound that was "best" ,to my ears.
Ive noticed that many Audiophile speakers use Planar Tweeters... And while these may be extremely accurate.. Ive heard from many reviewers, that they are very Narrow in their projection / image... and that if you sit even a foot off center to them.... the difference in balance and levels.. is completely different. Meaning, the Sweet Spot is very limited in size. However, the old EPI 100v speakers I got hold of... use a special Inverted Tweeter... that creates a very wide and detailed 3d Soundstage. You can sit or stand, within over a 10 x 10 ft area... and still get a perfect sweet spot listening experience, without any notable "Drop Off", nor any detected "Imbalance". Maybe the imaging isnt as Crystal as the Planers.. but the experience of such a wide soundstage, and so forgiving of speaker and listening positions... make the listening experience, FAR more enjoyable.
Of course, there are also sometimes issues with Speakers being "Harsh" and "Fatiguing". Im not 100% certain why this is... but, I assume that drivers that might be capable of too great of a frequency range... are not always the most Optimally listenable speakers. By using drivers that are slightly less capable.. it may help prevent harsh tweeter and midrange. That said, I believe this is why many Audiophiles often use TUBE amps... because the Tubes slightly distort the harshness of the recordings, and slightly Color the sound a bit. Its very similar to using an EQ.. which funny enough.. many Audiophile raise their Noses against. They would rather test and buy countless expensive amps... when instead, a decent EQ could likely replicate most of these amps tonal "Colorizations". Of course, not sure if the Smoothing would translate... and as such, the Tubes might help... and then use an EQ on top of that... to dial in your preferred tonality.
I will also add, that in my listening experience... Horns are not good for an Audiophile experience. The shape of the horns, distorts the true intended 3d Image... as it passed through it. They are good for Party Speakers, DJ and Professional Events... but not great for Audiophile level Quality of Reproduction.
Anyway... I just really wanted to say... that its much easier for a speaker to play a few instruments, at lower volume levels... than it is for a speaker to play +10 different instruments + vocals... all at the same time... and at loud volume levels. Way too many audiophile demonstrations, tend to use a single or less than 3 instruments... with very Slow and "Airy" style of music. This is no real test for such speakers... and can be replicated pretty closely with lower fidelity speakers. The real challenge, is something like Disco, Classic Rock, certain 80s Synth Pop, Certain Orchestral pieces, etc. Faster and more Complex musical pieces.. which can lead to muddying, if the Drivers are not strong and accurate enough.
Yes. It is clearly shifting on my near-field setup, which currently consists of a Denon AVR, a pair of Q Acoustics satellites and a B&W subwoofer set at head height 5" behind me.
Hmmmm… when I listened through UA-cam sent to my system via airplay… I felt like the clarinet was mostly in the center.. though I could hear some movement… but was not sure if it was in my head or not… so then I listened via Apple TV and Apple Music where this album is available in ATMOS… NOW it is more clear… mostly seems to dance around between my speakers (Dali Rubicon 2 about 3m apart and I am 3m back and a fairly well matched 5.2.4 system)… next will try on headphones when I have the time.. . thanks for the music!
I can hear it on some small monitor speakers (Junk But Loud) and also decent sounding but not too expensive headphones. The first time I heard this listening test, I was listening to it on a hotel TV, that didn't have much of any stereo imaging, so I couldn't hear it then. Interesting comments about recorded vs live, I went to many live shows last summer, and also like listening to recordings of the live shows. There are advantages and disadvantages either way. It's more convenient to listen to a recording at home, and the chances of someone spilling a drink on my shoes are much less. Still, I also like going to shows even though the sound quality isn't quite as good as recorded. It's good fun to see a live performance, and experience it with so many other people. Also, I like the humor around Audio Phil.
My vinyl playback device makes me smile, happy and dance, job done me thinks😁
it moves around in the middle of the soundstage. never far right or far left.
Definitely noticed the effect on my Yamaha IEMs, but not such a wide swinging movement. Rather, the clarinet seems to be centred slightly off-center for the most part (a tad more to the left), and the sound swings from side to side. I'm visualizing the player rotating his upper body as he plays, hence the swinging. Found the track on Spotify, and the swinging is a little more apparent.
In case not mentioned yet, it is also available as both 24-bit/96kHz lossless and Dolby Atmos on Apple Music. Nice job on the video too!
Yes, I can hear it and here is explanation. Clarinetist players usually, while playing piece of music, move their instrument left and right (as it is body "singing") then, normally sound scene is changed. Therefore, in some extent it affect also stereo picture while we are listening piece of music. I would add, if producer of music is trying to fix the instrument in one piece, this is boring to listen and missing reality. We want to hear as much as possible real sound? This is a way...
If I am not mistaken, Chesky records for example has one system of recording music which 2 microphones places in the model of humans head trying to recover the music as it is...
An updated comment. Dave, I've had another good listen to this clip, also the original post and the subsequent post from a few months ago. For this second listening purpose I used a pair of Beyer DT250 headphones plugged directly into the DAC that I mentioned in my last comments, which by the way is an S.M.S.L C200. Guess what? It would seem that according to your analysis, none of my equipment can be deemed to be "Audiophile grade" This is because the oboe stays more or less in one position, that being, it's slightly left of center. There are other instruments that appear on either channel which is to be expected, but the DAC does a really good job of separating the soundstage and then placing the instruments in a realistic position. What is apparent, I think that the digital transfer used in the first of your posts is better, it sounds fuller. I'm going to correct my first observation and say that all of the oboe's notes are reproduced in one place. I can hear some movement away from point by the instrument as a whole but I would say that is natural.
For the first video I captured the clip from BBC iPlayer so whatever the source encoding is, it isn't going to be as faithful to the original as the 24-bit download. Which is preferable is probably a personal thing.
Oh Phil killed me with that one ! time to go get this track......cheers. Edit- I bought the track and yes I could clearly hear the clarinet shifting across the stereo image, I'm now using decent headphones and a decent amp. I totally get your point, however of course had you not told me about this I would have said "that's great" am I an Audiophile now LOL ! Fascinating experiment and probably the highest quality piece of music I own !.....cheers.
Higher notes on right and lower at left. This is what I hear. My system is at the lower end - speakers Jamo Studio 170 and receiver Yamaha RX-V677 via AppleTV.
I listened to this on what I would deem a "mid-fi" setup: Spotify streaming to a Pixel and Bluetooth'd to a pair of Jabra 85H earbuds. The recording was obviously stereo, as I could hear the backing orchestra on a wide soundstage. From the description in the video, I was expecting to hear wild channel swings, but what I got was the subtle movement of the clarinet's sound around center stage. Yes, it did sound as if the musician was moving his instrument about, but it wasn't nearly as extreme as I was expecting. If I hadn't been told to listen for it, I would not have noticed it.
You can find my further thoughts on this topic here ua-cam.com/video/EdDnAnSPQpg/v-deo.html and here ua-cam.com/video/m1VzhiBSv28/v-deo.html
Redid the test today 100% "wired." That is, downloaded a high-quality file (still Spotify, so not lossless) and played it through wired headphones, my 40+ year-old Sennheiser 414s.
I'm not sure if I'm hearing a true difference between yesterday and today, but I did hear a more noticeable 'swing' in the performer's position on the soundstage between 3:45 and 4:00, with minor swings noticed elsewhere.@@AudioMasterclass
I just have a modest HIFI system and the Bach's Oboe d'amore concerto, always make cry, so beautiful it is, when I here from in it. That is what counts, imho.
Hi - I got nice imaging (Fosi BT20A/Mission 760i SE) I enjoyed the music!
I heard it. I does not bother me. the melody caught my attention every time and made me forget everything else.
Hat's off. Best thumbnail ever.
Using Campfire Audio Comets I hear the sound mostly in the middle and barely moving side to side. There’s more movement for me up and down. The low notes are always down and to the left.
With Shure SE535s the moving side to side is a little more apparent, probably because of the greater isolation with foam tips. But still the effect appears reasonable for a foreground sound that is going to appear to move more because it’s closer. This is analogous to me to a foreground dancer appearing to move more because she’s front and center on the stage.
Yes, definitely moving around sometimes in big swings. Tekton Double Impact SE speakers, XTZ Edge A2 300, Burson Conductor 3 DAC/Preamp, streaming Tidal. I prefer not to have the artificial effects. Cheers!
Yes, I got some of Earbuds. Then a headset plus my Stereo. Which is a straight up 720 Is watt r s left, right, that's it 2 channels. and my system in my truck that put some money into and they all do seem to have their own way of impact like you're saying and surround sounds are definitely gotta make it apparent if you got a high quality surround Sound. a nice aftermarket receiver got your. DTS master audio and all that it's gonna really pop out. I really like your videos. Thank you for sharing them.
Young audio guy here.. using tidal on my dell laptop thru a thx onyx DAC into schiit saga pre amp into monoprice monolith 2 channel power amp feeding BW 606s.. perhaps more impressive than the movement of the clarinet is the big room feel of the recording overall.. being able to hear the entire orchestra clearly, especially when i close my eyes, thats whats most important to me.. idk if the clarinet was necessary 'dancing about' the speakers but it definitely has a lot of personality and stands out during this track especially
I actually kind of enjoyed it. The gear I used are Sennheiser 6XX with a tube amp on medium volume. There's just one thing that I didn't like, it peaked on my right ear on one note.
listening through a ZMF auteur classic and mojo 2, there is small variation in the positioning of the flute
It's not a flute.
Right. Had a listen on vanilla wired Apple earbuds and I thought Geoff was having a laugh. He’s trying to see who can hear stereo movement in a mono signal to make some point about how the human hearing system is a signal processor and we can fool ourselves when it comes to ‘resolving’. Resolvingness’. ‘Resolvingnessification’. Making me a resolvingnssificationalist.
Anyway.
The music sounded completely mono to my ears, after a few seconds anyway - I at first thought maybe I could hear a tiny bit of movement, but that seemed to quickly go away - and although I don’t do much audio these days, I used to be a house engineer for EMI so I assumed my ears are fairly trained. Or they used to be. Just for my interest, I decided to switch my phone output to mono to see if it made any difference at all. Maybe Geoff had left a tiny bit of spread in the signal and I was missing it on my earbuds? And maybe I could hear something? Maybe? I thought I might have heard something in the first second or two. No. Surely not?
Well. It turns out I’d switched my phone to mono a couple of weeks ago. I don’t usually listen to music on my phone and I thought I’d try listening to a podcast when walking the dog or doing stuff around the house with only one earbud in, so I could still be 50% present and thus keep my better half only 50% pissed off at me. So I’d switched to mono and forgot about it.
Yes, when I switched back to stereo I could hear the movement but it didn’t bother me at all. Whether that’s because the earbuds are rubbish or 20+ years of recording all sorts of popular music including experimental synthy stuff gives me a high tolerance for a sound source moving in the soundstage, I don’t know. What I will say, is I almost had myself convinced right at the start of listening to the passage that there was a tiny bit of movement, but it was barely perceptible and vanished as soon as I concentrated. So either I performed an example of what I had wrongly assumed Geoff was doing and imagining things or as I was moving around the house doing housework, the tiny movement of the earbuds in my ears was having an effect on the audio phase in my earholes, thereby making different frequencies move a tiny amount differently to each other in the stereo field. More likely I was fooling myself. My conclusion? You can get a lot more fun out of an exercise like this than the author intended if you are a bit of a nutcase.
Yes I can hear it on my iPad and earbuds! Sounds nice a lovely piece of music.
Thank you for your work and your videos. I find tham interesting. I am not an audiophile, and I have quite low audio sensibility to high end systems. But I noticed and can tell with 100% certunty that speaker size and distance between speakers makes a huge difference. To close-> no stereo effect. To far -> sound is never centered. Small speakers must stay closer and listening position must be nearer to speakers. What is the optimum distance between speakers vs speaker size for stereo system?
Listening on my computer with M-Audio BX5 speakers and M-Audio SuperDAC, and I could hear the difference just as you said.
I have a pair of cheap & small-ish 'Donner' (Chinese made) studio monitors ( a little bit bigger than a bookshelf speaker, smaller than a true monitor speaker). The bottom and top end of these speakers is beyond what my ears can hear (or any normal human) according to the manufacturer. I have not tested their actual dynamic range. The speakers are designed for use with a computer, so they have their own amplifier and can use bluetooth inputs as well. They are connected to my video monitor's audio output - I have two tower computers, so I like to be able to hear sound from either one. These speakers are set up about 8 inches from a wall, and are perfectly situated to provide stereo separation - I've elevated them so that the woofer is slightly higher than the top of the video monitor - which is also at my ear height. On those speakers I could easily hear the movement in the stereo field of the clarinet seeming to move about quite dynamically. I used to have a pair of Infinity bookshelf monitors from the 1980s - but the polypropylene woofers deteriorated, and I had to replace them at some point. Not being made of money, I got the best I could afford at the time for my use case.
I started recording music and learning from an 'audiophile' friend of mine back in the 1980s. Both of us had Infinity speakers - there was a factory nearby that made Klipsch and Infinity speakers - so we were able to buy straight from the showroom floor. I learned a lot from him about electronics (he repaired and built classified avionics for the AirForce), but I was also critical at times about some of the things he told me when my own senses told me otherwise. For example, he was using monster cable, while I was using lamp cord - and I couldn't tell the difference in sound quality between the two. As long as the cable had the right impedance to handle the load from the amplifier. One thing I did agree with him about cables, was to make sure your power cables crossed your audio cables at right angles, or you would get magnetic induction effects - and I could definitely hear that. As part of that learning process was the process of recording live music - and between the two of us, using a Tascam 4-track 'portastudio' we were able to create some fairly good recordings for that time period (1984). I've always kept my budget in mind when buying equipment, and while I know people who have giant surround sound 'audiophile' systems - I can't justify the space or the cost of such monstrosities. I'm really not missing anything.
Thanks for your video which I have found very helpful and it has improved my digital listening experience by 100%. I have a good HiFi system within my price range. Technics turntable and AMP and Wharfedale Speakers. When listening to vinyl I always get good stereo separation but not so when streaming. I use Apple Music streaming via Bluetooth (your probably smiling now and know what's coming), like many people I had presumed that digital is digital so that's it. Your video got me thinking so I did a bit more research. At first I thought I might need to go out and buy an expensive DAC, but I discovered that I simply needed to change my Apple settings to Hi-Res (ALAC 24-bit/48kHz) and plug my iPhone directly into the AMP, suddenly everything has come alive and the stereo separation is their. I don't know if it's worth investing in a DAC as I'm not sure if my ears will really pick up the difference between 48kHz and 192 kHz. I might ask if I can borrow one to see if it is worth it, but the jump from standard to ALAC 24-bit/48kHz has made a huge difference. THANK YOU!
Congratulations. Going further may not make much of a difference, or perhaps no audible difference at all. But moving up to lossless certainly removes very many doubts.
That clicking sound at the intro of Giorgio Moroder's "From Here To Eternity" (Single Version) is also a good test. Not only does it go from right to left. It actually goes 360 degrees, round and round.
I bought the album from Apple Music after your previous video regrading this same track. Yes I can hear clearly the clarinet dancing around left, center and right, but need to confess I got your answer from last time. I guess my us$3000 headphone and $4500 dac/amp stacks are working😅 Love your videos👍👍👍
You're still sub-$10k. Work to do.
@@AudioMasterclass yes, still a lot of work to do😅😅😅
i used 3 different headphones/earphones, nicehck b70, final audio E500 and AKG K612 pro, and didn't really hear it. they all sound very similar, where the clarinet is at the 11 o'clock and didn't move very much if any. so i think the limiting factor is my tiny dac dongle, which is ibasso dc03 pro.
I've tested my system on other music sources that DO move from extreme left to extreme right but the clarinet in your track (as played back on UA-cam) doesn't move anywhere near as far as you claim.
Through you tube on my Warfedale 4.4 at 6ft apart with covers off i can hear it a bit but at 9ft its more noticeable.room makes a big difference.the few times i get to listen to Stereo music i literally pile the furniture up in both back corners cover log burner area and it does tighten up the sound.would love a dedicated listening room.a well
It sounded like a great clarinetist playing with movement to me, even though I compress the sound to fit my room. If I don't, it can be too much, like way crazy too much.
Any opinions of chifi? Bkessing 3 is fantastic
reading what everybody said and with my own experience, the hearing of the changes wild be more easily with bright sounding system.
Not only do I hear the clarinet move left and right, at times it sounds as if it is flowing diagonally from the top left to bottom right. Anyone else hear this? It may just be me or my system? I listened to it on Tidal by the way. I’m very happy with my WiiM Pro, Kef R3 Meta’s, dual Rel T7i’s and Schiit Bifrost 2 & Ragnarok 2 😊
I could hear it on my iPAD!
That’s because you’re listening to the content of the music, not the fidelity which is what it’s about. Bravo! Audiophiles frequently put the fidelity above the music itself.
Strange as I thought it would be more evident on monitors (definitely main speakers with cross-feed etc. unless they are bass-heavy) there's no cross-feed on headphones so again could be harder to hear unless you have very detailed headphones as opposed to bass-heavy ones, its dancing around in the air on my B&W main speakers which are well placed and out from the wall, if you have X-Space on an IFI headphone DAC/AMP that will implement a Cross-Feed.
Just noticed this on Tidal in Dolby Atmos which may be more spacious on headphones ;-)
I am not a classical music listener nor an audiophile, but just wanted to weigh in with an outside opinion. To me I would say what is "correct" or "incorrect" is simply up to the artist. If the artist listens to a recording and says wow this is or is not what i intended then there's our objective answer, all else is subjective. I think of stereo audio as just another medium for an artist to express themselves. A musician should not be bound to recording their music exactly as it's performed in concert (and vice versa!), just as a painter is not bound to paint a landscape exactly as it exists
So, I am about your age and I am aware of my hearing issues, relatively speaking. I listened to the musical passage and could clearly hear, in my less than ‘audiophile’ Yamaha headphones the instrument shifting around the stereo field, without question!
I am currently listening on my home office system SMSL AD-18 Digital amp driving my Mission Argonauts and yes he is a mover but most Clarenete players are movers when enjoying their work.
To me, the clarinet takes almost all the space, from left to right speaker, but the emphasis of each tone jumps from left to right to left etc. Especially in the last third part.
If I'm supposed to hear the clarinet clearly jumping and only being in one spot (point position like a guitar I can point where is), then no.
I've only tested on UA-cam, on my TV, via ARC to my Denon surround receiver, and Dali speakers.
EDIT: It's mainly the reverb, that fills the full stage, not so much each tone, that are somewhat easy to pinpoint. But the clarinet reverb is very loud, and obscure each tone.
All that reverb makes it harder.
I could definitely hear the issue of rapid transition across the image but noticed something else: on some parts briefly I could hear some notes on different locations of the stereo soundstage. It wasn't like a total out of phase but almost like there ware two clarinets with one between centre and left, with the other between centre and right, so and then it starts panning again; I was wondering if the microphones were picking up with a few degrease of a phase difference at some points. My system does handle centre imagine very accurately so that wouldn't have caused any phase issues.
Mac mini (M1, 2020) connected to Bowers & Wilkins MM-1
yeah but I can hear bit of Bitcrushing tbh on the UA-cam one
Yes, I heard it. But I expect the clarinet player is a bit taller in reality. Listening on a Sony STR-DN1080 AV receiver connected to Yamaha NS-F51 floorstanding speakers. So, not exactly an audiophile set up, but I did hear it. It sounded fairly natural to me, in terms of the sound stage, apart from the fact the instrumentalist would have to have been very short.
EDIT. Might have to go back and listen on my AudioTechnica headphones (ATH-AVC500), in case it was my head moving, rather than the clarinet!
2nd EDIT. Yes, I can still hear it. And the clarinetist has grown taller. I don't think the movement is excessive or distracting, but natural(ish) (as it was on speakers).
It isn't as dramatic an effect as i expected but i can just about hear it with my sennheiser HD560 ovation II headphones but can't really hear it on my Mission 761 speakers and Rotel amp.
listening on my computer monitors, I have Adam Audio TV5, the stereo imaging is kept mostly directly in front of me, it dances around a small amount, favoring the left speaker. I don't really see it as a huge example of stereo separation. I hear different songs through these speakers where I swear the sound appears to be coming from a side behind me, or nearly directly from the side at times, I think the imaging can be quite good. Perhaps it is not as good as I thought though.
The term "audiophile" specifically refers to admiring, colleting, and curating audio playback equipment and recordings, not necessarily loving music more than other listeners. The sentiment @0:36 "if they don't care, they wont notice" applies to audiophiles too. For those who do "care" in the aforementioned sense, hardly anything could detract from their "listening experience" more than rigorous A/B testing procedures.
I don't have many doubts that my system is "audiophile" level. In fact, it likely sounds better than the average audiophile setup. My room is terrible only in terms of its reverb (I will solve this issue this year), but the mode distribution is quite fortunate (thus the shape and size). I have Neumann KH120A studio monitors in front and a pair of Monolith 12 THX subwoofers, all processing done on my computers, correction, bass management. Surround speakers are Kali Audio IN-8v2's. All speakers are equidistant to the main listening position.
Stereo - effect is obvious, but not too egregious
Surround sound, upmixed with Nugen Halo, the effect becomes outright extreme.
I can hear it on my ~$220 closed back headphones. I can't exactly pinpoint the clarinet's location at every point, but I could definitely tell that it wasn't staying put.
I can hear it very well, has more bouncing across the full sound stage than Jimi Hendrix Axis Bold as Love introduction.
It is probably the fastest left to right imaging I've heard in awhile, however it does not sound at all correct for the piece and out of place. Great if were a guitar piece.
I have a quality audiophile system and got a full copy of the piece, I listened multiple times with different speakers, however I actually like it there is great passion in her playing.
I heard it and I liked it. I was just listening on my modest home theater system in stereo. I bought my first amplifier in 1975 so I have been doing this awhile. I have never considered my self an audiophile, just a Hi Fi enthusiast. I have 6 systems in my house right now. LOL
Audiophile William here, listening to a pair Tannoy FSM in my fully acoustically treated listening room. Interesting with the Clarinet dancing around in the stereo image. What about the next level David? 3D holographic image for example Roger Water -Amused to death recorded in Q sound. I take my Audiophile hat off to you Audio Phil 😅
You're giving Phil ideas. He's dangerous enough as it is.
The previous time this subject appeared on youtube, I listened to it on my TV (a non audiophile type) I couldn't hear anything wrong with the recording because the central focal point that the TV created nullifies and masks the drifting effect. When you later explained the fault, I listened again. I have a reasonably good Yamaha surround sound system( also, not really audiophile grade ) but the effect was just about noticeable. Your explanation for why this effect is happening ,was I thought accurate and that the engineer possibly had the wrong mic set up or did they? Is this effect deliberate? I hear most of the oboe instrument playing slightly left of center. except for some bass notes that are then right of center. I don't hear the sound dancing all over the sound stage. My Yamaha system uses HDMI connections played back through a pair of vintage Tannoy Cheviots. I can also play back the sound through a Quad 405-2 also using the same speakers. The source for youtube is from a Manhattan set top box and is used for both systems . For connection to the Quad system, I use a Toslink into a DAC that is then passed through a Fosi Audio SK01 and then into the Quad. (Your review of the SK01 persuaded me to buy one). My Quad 44 pre-amp now sounds a bit jaded so I was looking for a more pure and clean sound. The SK01 sounds remarkable. I ask you. Is my second audio system audiophile grade? I wouldn't be so presumptuous to say that it is. Nor do I claim to be one. (I can't hear anything above 11 or much bellow 40htz )
Ah, next time I purchase anything from Amazon (weekly shopping etc), I will click your link. I suggest others do too ;)
It’s in the centre of my soundstage throughout the clip.
Mild imaging swings well between the physical spacing of my ears with a pair of Soundcore Liberty 2 Bluetooth pods and this YT stream over 6g wifi.
Continued trial with an HTA100 hybrid amplifier fed by Wiim streamer from Spotify through spidf and a pair of decent monolith planar mags yeilds about the same ammt of movement.
If I was sitting about three feet in front of the instrumentalist, he would be bobbing about 4 inches in either direction during his playing. If I was front row, he could be moving about 3 feet in either direction and it could image similarly.
The clip you posted has a stereo range for sure, but it isn't as wild as you are suggesting. Seems some brighter segments are more focused on the right, and lower/mids are left. I have other clips that are much more defined on being left or right, however.
Listening on:
Schiit MODIUS - XLR to KRK 10S subwoofer - XLR to Presonus Eris E5 studio monitors. Not audiophile by any means, but a significant difference from regular computer speakers or what most people listen to music with these days. I wish it was easier to listen on other peoples' setups, though. Or audiophile listening spaces were more common. =/
EDIT: Just listened on my MODIUS - RCA to ASGARD 2 AMP - Sennheiser HD598 and I still don't hear any intense hard left or right. I can definitely hear heavier, harder left or right leaning audio in other songs, however.
True Audiophiles love being miserable (I'm convinced.) I love music, I love the way it affects your mood, I love listening to the passion that the artists put into their creations.
I've got a pretty nice system, but the room setup is poor (and cannot be resolved, because I live in a real house with a real family.) But I don't care. Having the music in the home is what matters to me. It's a very rare occasion that I get the opportunity to sit down alone and critically listen and I don't really enjoy it. Rather have a few buddies over and have some good beats cranking in the background, or put on a live concert and enjoy watching it together.
So now I'm listening to classical orchestral pieces and I'm convinced I can hear a piano shifting around spatially. Particularly in Mozart Piano Concerto No21 in C Major London Philharmonic, I can hear the lower notes on the left, the higher on the right, indicating two mics are being used, what do people think, is this common in piano?
I couldn't hear any movement in the clarinet but I'm pretty sure I heard someone moving the microphone.
I used my focal stellia with mojo 2, and I could hear that the image was a bit confusing, and sort of moved a little. Sometimes I wasn't sure if it moved or not, but especially at the end I am sure it moved. I wonder if my experience fits the description "clear as day". Maybe it's just me who is not very audiophile, or maybe the headphones aren't despite it's high price tag and reviewers praise? I dunno😅
I can sort of hear it moving, very subtly and only to my left but that might be my headset. It's a Logitech G432 so it's not bottom of the barrel but it's not a audiophile rig, just a gaming one. Works pretty well for surround sound in games tho, (But only in the horizontal plane)
My setup for tv is very humble. Cheap 2ch Denon and tip find Bose 901s and yep all over the place but still sounds good like it was meant to sound that way a kind of ethereal sound. Do you think the earlier commenters are dense or ppl just have to be negative nowadays?
I liked your earlier video that “it’s good enough.”. I set my system to play what is recorded. Most music in my opinion is ruined in the recording and later by unfaithful speakers. The bits between are usually good enough. I am not pretentious enough to believe I am a audiophile. My favorite all time good enough speaker was Sony APM 22 ES. A tech that Sony did a poor job of Marketing. I purchased them in Japan. I had Mac’s, B&o’s, and other really nice speakers. The Sonys were just remarkable. I did need them but I had to have them. Enjoy your videos.
Sometimes I feel as if I live in a twilight zone where I desperately want my audio to be as much like a live concert hall performance as possible whilst realising it never really will be. When you are at a concert the visual clues obviously tell you where the musician is and how they are positioned and moving; when you are listening at home you only have the clues your ears receive. So when you hear the movement at home you don’t know if it’s accurate or not, the engineer might have manipulated it, or increased levels which distort that position, soloists on many concerto recordings are often “enlarged” and sometimes appear to shift from side to side. So what exactly is audiophile quality ? Micro shifts in image exaggerated to satisfy audiophiles rather than “ordinary” listeners who want at least reminder of a live performance ( yes almost impossible). Modern classical vocal is at a low ebb, recorded too close and re-engineered into horrible lifeless dense sound… maybe audiophiles should spend more time at concerts and less trying to work out if they can hear the third violinist from the back turning the page from left to right or right to left ? Do you want to listen to an instrument as if you were right next to it, or as you would hear it from your seat in the theatre; the engineer on the day makes that choice for you, and too often that’s how it ends up … “engineered”
I just listened to the UA-cam Video (which of course has heavily compressed audio codec) with a Sennheiser HD650, which is a reasonable earphone and i "can hear it", but i would not hear it if not told to listen carefully. It seems that the higher notes come from more right side and the lower tones more from the left side. But nothing to complain about. Maybe the original recording is more "dividing", but here on UA-cam its not very annoying.
Can someone give me the mailing address for the Audiophile Authority Ombudsman? I want to apply for Audiophile status.
Trying to be someone who tells other people whether or not they get to call themselves Audiophiles is lame.
Ok, so now you may be understanding a concept that my fellow studio engineer and I discussed a long time ago. Both of us are amateurs. What we realized is that our decently-high resolution studio monitors allowed us to hear amazing things. We, however, set it up so we could A-B test it to switch to more modestly-designed, regular speakers. We also would switch to 2 different types of headphones ... $120 ones and $30 ones. Yeah, it made a difference. It boils down to what a typical listened needs ... one who is driving down the road at 70 mph and can't hear any of the frequencies that are masked by the road noise. It's almost like you are finally getting it.
Well it doesn't move in much noticeable amounts through my Sennheiser headphones connected to a laptop with no special software or hardware processing (other than a mere equalizer) in between youtube audio output and audio DAC chip. It' just a sufficiently decent one. And I suspect if quality of headphone would make a (big) difference on stereo imaging, if no dsp is performed to enhance the audio field...
Audio Phil is becoming a legend 🤣
I hear it. It is not unpleasant but this could be result near /far microphone or left/ right with the preform moving. Also could be electronic manipulation.
It could be electronic. I doubt it in this case, but it certainly is possible to widen the stereo image electronically.
The banner across the bottom of the thumbnail asks, "Is your system Audiophile?"
My best answer is, "I don't care. It's for my personal enjoyment and I don't base my enjoyment on what others think of my equipment "
I enjoy hood clean sound. I don't claim to be an Audiophile, but I can hear when there is an issue in a system like distortion, a rubbing speaker cone, a slight DC hum or when music sounds muddy.
And yes, I can hear it moving around a little. But I can also hear that it's a very clear and open recording with great clarity and detail.
Oh! And I HATE Audio Phil.
Happy to hear from the girls anytime. Except when they do that creepy laugh in unison.
The funny thing is, the first time I listened to this clip (months ago) I used a PHONE. I placed it horizontally about an inch from my nose and I heard it IMMEDIATELY!!!! But as I said back then I have been an audio engineer for more than 50 years. I don't know if I'm an audiophile or not, nor do I care. It's all about active listening and knowing what to listen for.
confirmation that perception of sound (esp music) can be improved by training, & it's possible to become expert.
Yes, I can hear it, and seeing as I only have hearing in one ear, so my system must be doing a good job. 🙂