Hands down the best video I've seen in a very long time - well articulated, clear and so freakin informative! Loved every second of this presentation, thank you so much for your time and effort in putting it all together, simply brilliant.
It's possible that he may have started out as a pious fraud, but his increased appetite for power, money and women clearly allows his description to be shorted by the unnecessary adjective.
@@henochparks Seems kind of unwise for a poor man to marry 14 women. 1 woman would be challenging enough financially for a poor man. Maybe his polygamy had something to do with his poverty?
I believe that Joseph Smith JR initially got the idea of becoming a prophet from his Father Joseph Smith Senior who had talked about having a great prophet for a son long before Joseph Smith JR claimed to have visions. Joseph Smith JR was encouraged by his Father who was a restorationist. Joseph Smith JR didn't fit into the religious communities of his time because they were all traditional Christian sects so Joseph Smith JR created his own sect that claimed they were all wrong and modeled it after the restorationist ideals of his Father. Joseph Smith tried to join the Methodist Church in 1828 but was rejected by the Methodists for his involvement in folk magic. Just 2 years later Joseph Smith JR started his own Church in 1830. Every time that Joseph Smith would encounter a problem in his life he would "inquire of the Lord" and come up with a very convenient revelation on the matter. If God was in charge of the restoration of his "one true church" then God would have been giving the information to Smith without him having to inquire about it. Instead, the doctrine would be received as the problems were encountered. For example, when the Smith family was upset about a minister telling them that Alvin went to hell for not being baptized, Joseph Smith resolved the issue by coming up with baptism for the dead. When Joseph Smith was caught committing adultery then he came up with D&C 132 which threatened Emma with destruction if she divorced Joesph Smith JR (D&C 132:54). A self serving revelation like that shows Joseph Smith's motivations became completely selfish towards the end of his life.
Exactly the same revelations that prophet Muhammed received. You can read many of them in the Hadiths. Many of them are convenient revelations for him.
@@taylor.rafferty Lots of nonMuslims mention admiration for Muhammad. Michael Hart lists him as top #1 influential person in all of human history for noble reasons.
@@notionSlave but not because they admire his self-grandiosity and polygamy. Joseph admired him for all the wrong reasons. The same way he said Henry VIII of England was a great ruler
@@djadams7795 No early Christians ever built temples, or taught about a heavenly mother, or taught about eternal human marriage. Add to that the blasphemy that God the father was once a man who was exalted to Godhood.
The reason cults work so well s they create a community of peer pressue where if you leave you may lose everything. When most people have a choice to face the truth or potentially lose family, friends, lifestyle, etc. it becomes easier for most to perform extreme mental gymnastics to try and validate the BOM. It's really sad and many feel they are in too deep to leave.
Methinks you are actually too kind in this analysis, Dan. If phrases like "pious deceiver" or "sincere fraud" apply to Joseph Smith, then they also apply to the likes of Antonio Conselheiro, Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc. I purport that what is most elusive and difficult to understand is not what made Smith tick, but rather what makes his followers tick. How and why do otherwise reasonable, pious, sincere people fall prey to the charismatic sale pitch of such amoral narcissists? A genetic proclivity to depend upon, even revere, the "alpha male" of the chimpanzee troop?
Mark D Larsen, I think humans have a natural tendency to follow a leader. This is usually a good thing as it helps human groups work together. Unfortunately, a charismatic leader who starts believing his own propaganda can lead his people off a cliff.
Well, he was right about one thing.. All churches are false! Unfortunately, so is his. Joe's time and place was a world of folk magic and mysticism. People were very uninformed and believed all sorts of improbable things about the "unseen world." When magic stopped working for him and got him into trouble, our hero decided to branch off into religion. He was a bright boy. He rightly perceived that the current religious foment represented an opportunity. Lots of religions were invented during that period in the USA.
Isn’t religion actually magic though? Magic comes from the word magi. The three wise men that visited the baby Jesus were actually magi translated as wise men instead of magician. Think about it Moses turned his stick Into a snake and parted waters. That seems like magick. Monks levitating seems like magick. It’s not just a card trick but actual belief and ritual affecting physical reality.
Lookup Jose dispenza a doctor that does body scans and dna scans etc of people going to his conventions. They mediate and do sessions about belief and some people get healed. You can say it’s BS but they’re legitimately doctors doing scans of people before and after so they have the actual data and dna change. That seems like magic.
I adore this! I am so glad you discuss the "search it out in your mind" revelation-- I was so shocked by that one when I came across it. It could be seen as Joseph Smith giving up the hoax: explaining that God is, more or less, the creative process. But I think it is more how you see it, which is the converse: that Smith saw the creative process AS god-- which I think is actually quite beautiful. ( not to forgive him his more knowing deceptions and later abuses of power, of course )
Thank you, thank you, thank you! For your study of this and sharing it with is on UA-cam. I watched this video multiple times over the course of 6 hours taking notes and researching. I really think this video pulled it all together for me. I could not reconcile the sincere nature of Joseph's works with the blatant evidence of his lies until now. I was raised a devout Mormon my whole life and I don't think you will know how much peace this video finally gave me. In fact, I have been struggling to know what to believe myself as of late, and I think Joseph was on to something with the universalism. I hate when other Christians say, "Save the Mormons! Their very souls are in jeopardy!" Because that is the EXACT same limiting belief as the Mormons believe. The first time a heard a Born Again Christian say that all Mormons are damned until we leave our ways and become what they call "true Christians" I knew I would never, ever, go to another church again. After what I've been through I could never run from one religion that limits my beliefs and tells me how to think straight to another one that does the same thing. Christian community: do you really believe Christ's atonement is limited to those who understand all the secular facts of his life. How naive and hypocritical, not to mention the pure blasphemy to limit who Christ can and will save to your own tiny maniputed understanding. If you believe this, stop researching all the issues with the Mormon church and take adeeper look into your own brainwashing sect.
Your Mormon religion has left you with the root of bitterness. Try reading the Bible. Read the whole book, then you tell me. I live in a mormon area and I am witnessing the young LDS teens committing suicide at a phenominal rate, young children , some pre teen. The Mormon doctrine of attaining Godhood responsible for this? Something is behind this. The #1 killer in Utah is suicide for both sexes and ages 14-44. So you tell me?
The question is, was Christ the monotheist God eternally or is he a man who became God (polytheism)? Truth matters if it's in fact true. Otherwise we might as well just say truth doesn't matter and let's give up in seeking it.
Excellent video. It does present a way to look at this extraordinary enigmatic man, Joseph Smith, in a respectful way, regardless whether one finds him a fraud or a real prophet. I have admired the Prophet while at the same time being incapable of understanding how he was able to accomplish all that he did and the enormity of his legacy.
Dan, please keep the much needed great work. Quu Estion: Why did Joseph Smith claim that Israeliets migrated to the Americas in 600 BC? Their decendants did not experience Jesus' life. Could it be in tecearly 1800s that much less was known about the Americas' history than Middle Eastrn and European history.
wow great video, I saw all your videos but I like how this one goes into the ins and outs of his motives and thoughts.. He was pious fraud, He basically covered His back in writing the book of Mormon.. He justified himself and His "good intentioned" deceptions.
Mormonism has been the State of Utah's #1 export for a long-long time, and the Qurom of 12 and the Qurom of the 70 are never going to stop exploiting the gravy train for them that Mormonism is.
I think he was just like any other person who began to think of himself as something special and it got out of hand as more and more people around him began propping him up in his delusions of grandeur. Charles Taze Russell, Ellen G. White, Mohammed and William Branham all did the same thing. Jim Jones is the most notorious of them all. He couldn't admit to anyone he was a fraud, not even to himself because he was getting deeper and deeper into doing wrong. You see it all the time today. A movie star thinks they are something special then people start paying attention to them and then they have a reality tv show and think they can make public political opinions even though they nothing about the politics they are trying to talk about. Then the fanboys and fangirls go on like they can't do wrong, all the while they are slipping more and more away from reality. He didn't believe what he was saying, but people were giving him attention and prestige, that's all he wanted. It is the peoples fault Joseph Smith became what he was. It is a cult of personality, that's all.
Lol you compare Mohammed pbuh to this bunch of lunatics? Google who is the most influential person in human history, it was the name i mentioned Mohammed pbuh. The only human in history who combined 3 major attributes. A perfect lawmaker, a perfect general and warrior plus religious leader who established a world religion. Nobody before or after him combined this 3 attributes.
F. Moussa, Mormons are brought up from childhood to revere Joseph Smith. Muslims are brought up from childhood to revere Muhammad. You are an outsider, so Mormonism looks ridiculous to you. It is unfortunately very easy to mistake familiarity for truth and unfamiliarity for falsehood. Try and imagine how Islam looks to someone raised as a Mormon, a Seventh Day Adventist, a Hindu, or a Buddhist.
you obviously have a poor memory when it comes to history to compare Joseph Smith with Hitler is less than wise. Use wisdom to make your opinions our people will think you are unwise. Compare points when making your point. Got to go.
I would argue that he was an adventurer. He chose a guise of holiness to facilitate his inner desires. If one can’t live the life of say a pirate who buries treasure he could create a way to live the life of the great heroes of the Old Testament. Those were other adventures that Smith may have been familiar. Smith found the perfect avenue that would give him more power than all the men around him. Part and parcel of this arrangement was that Smith got to play the role of Pious fraud, which must have been intoxicating to a certain extent.
I have long suspected that JoSmith's primary motivation was the prophetic role itself. Smith, like his mother and father, and essentially his entire culture, was drenched in the KJV. However little formal schooling Smith had, he was clearly precocious concerning religion and the Bible, highly intelligent and inventive, and even, as suggested by Harold Bloom, an authentic religious genius. It's safe to assume that Smith, like everybody around him, for no good reason sincerely but simply just accepted the Bible to be the word of a god and that Christianity was fundamentally true. Both from reading the Bible and observing the sectrarian religious world around him, it would be easy for him to conclude at an early age that the Bible was not straightforward, even confusing, and that it was subject to massive and varied interpretation. Probably listening as a child to his parents read the Bible aloud he was exposed to OT prophets. The precocious Smith recognized that "prophet" was the key to making sense of the Bible and for a correct Christianity. Joseph Smith wanted to be that prophet and he did an admirable job. How he justified in his own mind what he knew to be subterfuge, fraud and a con, is hard to imagine but I suspect some of it involved convincing himself that thoughts and ideas in his head actually did come from the god of the Bible. The accumulation of wealth clearly was not Smith's motive. Prophetic knowledge and pronouncement (and power and control) seems more likely. Even if it took "sincere" pious fraud & deception -- including self-deception -- to accomplish god's will
+Shelama Great post. I agree about the role of the Bible then. It was also their blockbuster hit movie. Their celebrities--they just became overly involved.
A ‘golden boy’ child has the belief that I can do no wrong and a delusional self-confidence grows around this, especially if his father wanted a son who hod magical gifting. The result is a lovable con who learns to use his persuasive powers to deceive others and gain what he and his family need. The role of prophet of a new Christian religion with his own sacred books makes total sense for his time. We could call this a well planned form of religious entrepreneurship. This made the best use of his ‘gifts’ to garner the maximum reward in money, sex and power.
shelama:. j smiff was a regular "HOWDY DOODY." Alternatively called/known as "Manchurian Candidate." But, however much the "creations" of others, the creation only "takes" when its fashioning & finishing are INHERENT to the FIRST FORM. Left to our own devices & without Sovereign Grace, we are each/all a hair's breadth from monstrosity. (This neither accuses nor excuses anyone; nor yet exalts nor excludes anyone. We may account it odious, even nihilistic, but we are not our own. Man simply cannot readily comprehend this nor willingly concede it. We have to be permitted to reach a point at which we are downright thankful for it! Even if it means we actually have to forgive those we most viscerally abhor. That scares the hell out of me. Not sure if I will ever be able to comprehend what FORGIVENESS actually is. I do know this: IT IS NOT IN ANY MAN, nor can be taught by ANY MAN. We have to come the way we come.
@@geoattoronto No such thing as a LOVEABLE CON. CON is what we are to learn to discern & despise, break away from & never go back again. One who loves TRUTH will hate WICKEDNESS. But the flesh of man can never "separate the precious from the vile" because the mind of our flesh is UPSIDE-DOWN. This podcast (and all its moderator's work) sublimely iterates the cosmic pickle that is "man." ✌️
Smith had a $1,200 annual allowance from the church. A teacher earned about $400 a year, and a factory worker up to $900 per year. Also, Smith had no mortgage, as his "revelation" told his followers they needed to build a house for him. I wouldn't dismiss financial motives so quickly.
Joseph Smith believed God sometimes inspires deception, that some sins are according to his will or that occasionally it is necessary to break one commandment in order to fulfil a higher law. I can run with that. Your explanation helps to understand the mind of Joseph Smith.
This has far more implications than just choosing one law over another. Joseph used this rationalization to: 1) Lie to his wife (either to her face or going behind her back) to marry most of his polygamous wives. This also includes marrying women who were already married, which violates one of the 10 commandments (to not lust after another man's wife). 2) He also lied under oath and in the original D&C section 101 which stated that only monogamous marriages exist in the church. This remained in the 1935 D&C until well after Joseph Smith had died. 3) He also used this excuse to add significantly to his various First Vision accounts. His 1832 account simply stated that he had prayed and Jesus appeared and forgave him his sins. This account never mentioned anything about churches being wrong coming from God and the call to become a prophet. In 1938, after a leadership crisis where the 3 witnesses and many of the core followers had left him, he added the other details to the canonized First Vision account to attempt to provide doctrinal reasons for his prophetic calling. There added many other examples of Joseph's dishonesty (stating anyone would die if they saw the plates, despite the existence of cases of people who weren't part of the 11 witnesses who saw the plates and weren't killed, the changing of the priesthood ordination coming from angels as opposed to Divine Will only, etc.) but these are the major ones. * Edited for terrible grammar from originally submitting from my phone.
Daric Thank you for your feedback. It certainly reveals a man who used deception to further his kingdom building of a new world religion and i suspect that that is how many great religions are formed. Without throwing out the baby with the bath water, Joseph's creation has produced a lot of good in the world. Devious he may have been but not totally. I liken Joseph Smith to the muslim prophet Muhammad the founder of Islam. Both had to do some terrible things in order to launch their respective religions.
Rob McKay I agree with a lot of that. Dan Vogel's theory of Joseph being a "pious deceiver" has some merit. However, having known people with mental disorders such as borderline personality disorder (BPD) and narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), they often change the story of personal historical events unknowingly. They change details, exaggerate, rearrange the sequence of events, etc. and they become completely convinced that their modified recollection was how the events actually transpired. Whether Joseph knowingly changed the history or did it subconsciously, I don't think we will ever know for sure. He certainly exhibited signs of NPD. If you search WebMD (or other similar websites) for symptoms and signs of someone with NPD, you'll find that Joseph Smith is a dead ringer for almost all of them.
Howdy Rob. Still doing antiMormon trash talking... uh... ministry for a living, or have you found yourself a real job? Your "some sins" statement is garbage. No sin is acceptable before the Lord, and Joseph Smith never taught that. But you already knew that.
cdowis Hi there, Mormonism is hobby for me. I like to study it in both its good side and its dark side. I see in Joseph Smith a combination of both - good and a bit of the dark side. .
What do you think about the theories of Joseph Smith's use of datura and other entheogens in inducing mass visions? is this more likely than your hypnosis theories at least with regards to large groups (as was common dieting the Kirtland period? )
Before there was much in the way of science and certainly no internet, folklore filled in the gaps. Until fairly recently it was very common to know people in the U.S. who believed men are born with one less rib than women because God created Eve from Adam's rib. These people will look you in the eye and insist this is true. Such tales can be so believable that when. many years ago, I began to study nursing and medicine I made it a point to know for sure if men had one less rib than women. My parents were college educated and non-religious. I do not consider myself generally ignorant yet the belief about the rib was believed by many, perhaps a majority of the kids I went to school with.~~~My point is, I think the folklore was accepted as pseudo-fact by Joseph Smith and he did not know any different. I believe he was extremely creative, charismatic, intelligent and also religious. I think he may not have been able to absolutely tell the difference between fable and fact. He had other people around him who encouraged him in what are basically delusions, who accepted his visions and inspirations. For me the question becomes how much of what he imagined did he actually believe? (I am not Mormon nor against Mormons. I am just a very curious person and I see Joseph Smith as at least partly sincere, if deluded. He was in large part the creation of his time and the backwoods of New York and that general region.)
Thank you for your research. I have benefited a lot from reading the Book of Mormon, and even though it may not be historical, I have no doubt that it can be consider a source of ispiration for a christian, because at least in my experience, has lead me closer to God. The world is not made of black and white,....there are colours and shades, and sometimes it is a bit more complex than what we might think, including the life of Joseph Smith Jr. But I always try to discern with God's help the good part of it. Thank you again for your research as neutral historian, i really appreciate it.
In the video, at 35:10, you show a document that appears to be the same revelation as D&C 8. However, the wording that you show is not the same. Is there an online source for the document you show?
I think Alma Chapter 32 in the Book of Mormon can be seen as support for Vogel's views here. Alma basically says that if you desire to believe something, it is OK to start by hoping it is true, and later on you will feel more certain.
Your videos are fascinating pieces of American history, only in America can someone conceive a folklore religion and sell to a hungry public. Thank you!
I come to read the pro Bible thumpers. Tons of people quit being a Book of Mormon thumper because they used critical thinking or were skeptical but then they remained a Bible thumped and still they know it all. It’s hilarious. It’s oh polygamy bad but it’s okay in the Old Testament. It’s like don’t read about god forcing judahs sons to know their sister in law in a biblical sense and since they didn’t they were killed by god. I just love the pro Bible crowd.
If you realize the existence of the devil, and how evil is summoned from sin and the occult, Joseph Smith's life makes perfect sense. "And you shall become like God" is what the devil told Eve. The same devils that inspired Mohammed found Joseph Smith. The best way to do evil is to twist the good.
It's now in the gospel topics essays which is on the church's website www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/latter-day-saints-channel/watch/series/now-you-know/did-joseph-smith-use-a-seer-stone-now-you-know?lang=eng
cdowis, your ad hominem attack on Dan Vogel tells me that your own logic is flawed. Why don't you address the message rather than attack the messenger?
+ Dan Vogel I've looked at just 2 of your assumptions of God supposedly lying or admonishing someone to lie. But you are mistaken. Here's the proof... Sarah WAS Abraham's sister (and wife, and niece). A half sister anyway. Here's how that worked out... See Genesis 20: 10-12. Terah was Abraham's father. Haran was Abraham's brother. Sarah was Haran's daughter (Abraham's niece). Haran died and Sarah was taken by Terah as his daughter (Abraham's half-sister). Abraham & Sarah were then married and thus his wife. The 2nd issue was the supposition that God lied when he told Adam & Eve "In the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die". (Genesis 3: 4-5) Actually Lucifer told a half truth. when he said "thou shalt not surely die" (a lie) ...thou shalt be as the gods, knowing good from evil (absolutely true!). Here are the proofs... "God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil". (Genesis 3:22). Genesis 5:5 states Adam lived 930 years and died. 2 Peter 3:8 Says 1 day to God is a 1,000 years to man. BTW: Abraham 3:4 (LDS Scripture, POGP) backs this up.
+Rick Hart The point is that Abraham only told a half truth knowing that if he told Pharaoh Sarah was his wife his life would be in danger. This fact is widely acknowledged. Read just about any commentary. Joseph Smith changed this in the Book of Abraham by having God tell Abraham to tell Sarah to say she is his sister (Abra. 2:22-24).
We have a "type" here to understand and discern how our adversary works. That is, he mingles truth and error. A liar is easy to spot and dismiss but one who hides behind a measure of truth and mingles lies with it, is the most to be feared. See if this is not the case and whether or not God lied. God to Adam... And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: *for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.* (Genesis 2:16-17) Lucifer told Adam & Eve a half truth... And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, *Ye shall not surely die:* For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and *ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.* (Genesis 3:2-5) Here are the results of their actions... And the Lord God said, *Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:* and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: (Genesis 3:22). Is this not as God promised? And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. (Genesis 5:5) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Peter 3:8) Now, enter Joseph Smith. In The Pearl of Great Price, a revealed book of scripture given through the prophet, it states (the Lord speaking to Abraham)... And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that *one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest.* This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob. (Abraham 3:4) So three questions arise out of this information. 1) Didn't Adam & Eve's condition turn out to be exactly as God said it would? 2) Isn't the adversary's method of deception mingling truth with error? 3) And the most important question. How did Joseph Smith know the correct reckoning of Gods time with ours?
Don't mean to go off on a tangent here, but this does show the problems Joseph Smith presents to the status quo. 4) What are we to make of the following... Genesis 3… 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, *the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:* and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Orthodox Christianity will no doubt rationalize this away, however Christ himself states very clearly... John 10… 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, *Ye are gods?* 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? Joseph Smith's revelation in the Doctrines & Covenants 76 sheds further light upon these scriptures & gives a third witness of our potential... D&C 76: 56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory. 57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son. 58 Wherefore, as it is written, *they are gods*, even the sons of God- 59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
+Rick Hart What? No one wants to comment on the things Joseph Smith, with his extraordinary 1 whole year of education got right? He's got 2 out of 2 things RIGHT and so far batting 100%. I've got more, want to hear it?
It is an easy answer to assert that Smith integrated Nephi’s murder of Laban in the book as a justification and rationale for Smith’s alleged immoral acts for religious reasons. But there is a big problem with this reasoning. Nephi was deceived by a lying spirit when he murdered Laban for religious gain. The tragic Nephite history is essentially a hidden cautionary tale of the harm and tragedy that befalls as a result of justifying immoral acts for religious or other reasons.
I call it the "law of the greater good." However, in most cases, I believe polygamy is wrong. And sex with a minor is punishable by law. It becomes a game of conflicting Christian Gods. Your God says you can have 30 wives, well, my God, who is supported by the US government says you need to stand trial.
The same U.S. government that supports tyranny when it benefits some rich billionaires or the same U.S. government that over throws democracies when they don’t help some rich Americans. Ya thank god for a moral and ethical U.S. federal government. Thank god we live in a world without never ending war and politicians that don’t lie.
Tristeen I can tell you don’t do deep deep deep thinking if you believe the U.S. government is good. Thomas Jefferson warned about private central banks. For over a century the privately owned federal reserve has paid a 6%dividend to Wall Street. Printing money out of thin air is theft and causes inflation or stealing purchasing power from others. Theft should not be promoted by Christian’s yet it is globally. I’m happy for you though you really think the U.S. government cares about you and morality. They killed 500,000 kids in Iraq and said it was an acceptable sacrifice. It almost made me think wow. It’s like the Phoenicians doing child saacrifices when the U.S. said it was an acceptable sacrifice. Like Us politicians also do vicarious child sacrifice in Cali at the grove in front of a large owl. Super occultish. The U.S. dollar also has occult symbols on it. Have you looked into that?
Tristeen Also how the freak can you say oh the government says 30 wives isn’t moral. The government is not there to define absolute morality. Gay marriage for instance always should have been legal but wasn’t cause the U.S. inherited England laws. But seriously if you’re going to have gay marriage you should let any consenting adult marry whoever the heck the want. If one woman marries ten guys who are you to say that’s wrong and why would you care or want to control them? Even minors at 16 legally get married in the U.S. with arranged marriages especially as we keep bringing in foreigners. You do realize like hundreds of millions of Muslims practice polygamy. Well idk the amount but if there’s a billion or two Muslims then theres obviously way fewer that practice polygamy cause the ones I met said they can marry four but need to support them or be well off first. But a guy from Saudi said he had 20 moms or something. I can’t remember maybe it was 20 siblings but I thought it was more than four moms.
Boy i tell you that boy Joseph Smith was a real piece of work. I wished he would have come to my door step to witness Mormonism. Ill would have liked to set him straight by the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
@@stephenjackson7797 “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:6-8
So if he was a fraud, in a roundabout way, makes him a valid prophet in a loose definition of the word? 🤣 You cant deny the genius of Joseph Smith, deceiver or not.
+dan vogel. I like your analysis but I think you are way to kind to him. I've read a Marvelous work and wonder and BoM. Ive read the quran and parts of the hadith. It is striking how simililar those two meglomaniacs were. Especially how they used revelation from "god" to further their own ends. Especially with women. Though M was much more violent and hateful. If I were to choose between the two I'd choose Smith. His followers managed at least to build a functional prosperous society, while muslims have been reeking havoc for ages.
F. Moussa 1. I am not american and I do not support their agression in the middle east, in fact I oppose it. 2. The wealth of the oil states in the mid east came through coopereration with America and the west. The demand for oil came from the west. The technology and the initial investments came from the west. The brains to run the business comes from the west. I have a friend that works in the oil industry in SA. He tells me that most of the intelligensia still comes from the west. If they were to leave the oil industry would collaps. 3. The oil riches is protected by the US navy permenantly stationed in the gulf. Without it your muslim brothers in Iran would march right in devestate it. So tell me again how anything with the rescent economical develoment in the mid east is related to Islam?! If it weren't for America Arabia would be a nation of bedoin goat hearders... Truth remains, Mohammed was a violent villian and his followers have followed suit.
in deuteronomy in the old testament there is the test of the prophets chapter 18 verses 21-22 it states in my words cause i don't have a bible handy if a man claims to be a prophet and just one of his prophecies or revelations does not come true then he is not speaking the words of god and should be dissed all the way around. simple enough? in words mormons can understand he was a false prophet he did not pass the test and the excuse that he was a man and men make mistakes does not work when you are supposedly speaking for god
You are aware that there are false prophesies in the bible right. I'm going to assume you are ignorant of this fact. Since I only need one example of a false prophesy in the bible, I will use the one that cannot be disproven. Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. Notice there is no, unless you repent, in this verse and as we know the people of Nineveh repented and were saved. You could argue the point, but, you would have to explain the first verse in chapter 4. But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry. Jonah 100% expected Nineveh to be overthrown, but when it was not he was angry.
not a false prophecy but not gods words. if a man speaks for god after he has been told by god then he is speaking for the lord right? now if a man says he is speaking for god and these things he says do not happen then he is not speaking for god but trying to do his own thing like smith was doing,the description at the beginning of the chapter is enough to answer that question it is not a false prophecy god changed his mind the beginning of the chapter says the fall of nineveh averted by penitence.this is no false prophecy if the people didn't repent then it would have been over thrown then jonah gets pissed because nothing happened and then comes the gourd from god and his pity for the gourd shows him why god had pity on the people of the town in 10 minutes i read and understand the story of jonah it is simple enough to understand that showing pity is a good thing when it is deserved but it isn't about false prophecy at all it is about having pity that is why the gourd comes into play at the end of it
Didn't most prophets fall short of their goal? They were flawed individuals who got over that fact and did something great! Nobody's perfect.....that was the lesson there. They were also punished for their deeds. Great people are often fighting the same demons that we are and often are telling their story when they preach! We just want to follow someone that is perfect so that they can take on all of our sins!
it has nothing to do with falling short of their goals. and everything to do with prophecy and revelation, and the truth in them, it matters what is said in the name of god since direct revelation is what is claimed to be the words of god not the words of a man , smiths own mother wrote that smith was telling these stories of the ancient inhabitants of the land almost as soon as he was old enough to talk. it didn't come from god it came from his imagination. and the proof of that is in the front pages of the book of mormon in the preface in the first paragraph where smith and the church claims the descendants of lamenites are the american indians. when this was said there was no such thing as proof through dna but they could not foresee the technology of today. or the ways to follow a persons ancestry by the blood in their veins. if god had anything at all to do with the book of mormon or any of the other books put out by the church they never would have made such a false claim. it would have said they are all dead not they are the american indians. there is also no locations for any of what is written in the book of mormon nothing archaeological to prove any of what is written ever happened no great battlefields nothing. when battles are spoken of in the bible if the location is known there are artifacts all over the place pieces of the metals used, smith said in the bom that they were using steel when it was the bronze age there is nothing to prove this there isn't even iron. the american indians were a stone age people until the american west brought iron and steel technologies to the west. then there is the egyptian funerary scrolls found in the chest of the mummy he bought, if it were what he said it was, why would an egyptian mummy have a hebrew scroll in his chest?that last question alone proves he knew nothing of what he was talking about
Well There was no rest of the bible back then. It was just the jewish torah, if we truly lived by that, we wouldn't have much of the Old Testament nor would we have much of the bible. The bible could've had a lot more books added to it, there were also many lost parts of the bible!
Joseph Smith is a very grey character. He was definitely a liar. The version of him given to most mormon children is very wrong. But he however did have some real occult background (which i don't view as necessarily bad) but that's the real way he claimed to be a prophet. He knew a lot about folk magic. And his involvement with masonic groups tops off some of the rituals he used. One thing remains true. He was a deceiver to the public. He did have some small psychic like abilities. And he knew a lot about masonic rituals. And the way they try to depict him in most modern videos to modern Mormons is very cherry picked and sugar coated. This is a good essay. I used to think he was a huge liar for a while. But after going even deeper into it I think Smith genuinely believed in what he was doing. He just wasn't exactly who he seemed to be to the public. He was pragmatic in furthering what he believed to be true. However what he did in the process was in a lot of ways monstrous. His burning of the printing press against him. And him marrying other woman's wives while denying it. You can't say to me he wasn't a liar. When most mormon children grow up they expect a prophet to never lie and to always lead them the right way. But when they find out that he did decieve quite a few people and that a lot of his revelations were possibly not as concrete like how his book of Abraham translation was actually an Egyptian book of breathings script. Joseph Smith was definitely "trippin'". Following a church that started with that kind of following shouldn't be trusted that's for sure.
God sums it up pretty simply about false prophets like Smith: "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christand *_no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of lighttherefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;_* whose end shall be according to their works." (2Cor 11:13-15)
I don't know if he was such a complicated or unique phenomenon. The formation of these groups happens all the time, all over the world. He was just particularly slick, so his cult happened to be one that lasted. (Most of them just fade out of existence or end in disaster.) It seems to help to have a foundational book--Scientology is one of the most notable examples of a group that managed to last in America after Smith, thanks in part to 'Dianetics'.
Happiness - is the object of our existance and will be the end thereof; if we pursue the path that leads to it;and this path is virtue, uprightness, fathfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God. Joseph Smith Jun
I don't think this essay's purpose in any way defends Joseph Smith, but merely seeks to explain his psyche in a fuller way than previously done. It probably is of no consequence to anyone except those who have felt deceived by his work, and wish to understand the particulars. I still find there is more (and less) to the story re the killing of Laban for the plates. Primarily, that this murder is gratuitous since it would have been a simple matter for God to impose a deeper drunken stupor upon Laban in order that his armour, unsullied by copious amounts of blood, be stolen without the ensuing decapitation. There are a great many ways that God could have facilitated getting the plates without decapitation. Therefore, and not to put too fine a point upon it, Smith had an adolescent boy's flair and taste for both drama and blood, and felt this story would play well, at least to the immature mind. The killing underscores mankind's overarching need for these all important records. I doubt Smith's need to justify deception was as great as the author depicts. I believe he was a personality that from early childhood learned to deceive and enjoy the results. Yes, the essay does bring to the fore some need to justify his own deception, but again, I doubt he was all that plagued with the process and by 1828 on, but rather delighted in his own growing successes. Just one of those weird socioopathic geniuses you meet from time to time. If he attempted to justify his deceptions through scripture, it was for the edification of others, and certainly not for himself. I enjoyed the analysis.
Sarah Pratt Very good analysis Sarah. Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni by Grant H. Palmer Published in John Whitmer Historical Journal 34 (Spring/Summer 2014): 50-57. mormonthink.com/grant11.htm
The first time I read the BoM the Laban story made no sense for a variety of reasons. God actually TOLD Nephi to murder a man in cold blood? Really? That contradicts everything that Jesus says about his father. Then there’s the whole “I put on Laban’s armor and went to Zoraida and demanded him to give me the plates using Laban’s voice and he somehow thought that I was really Laban.” story is ludicrous. There would’ve been buckets of blood everywhere and on Laban’s clothes. Even if Laban had been stripped before the murder there would’ve been blood spattered on Nephi, and there were no convenient public bathrooms nearby to go clean up before going to Laban’s house.
I'm hoping Dan is still around to respond to my post. Hey, Dan, tell us about the eight witnesses and the plates, and please please please give us your documented references. We have spoken several times on this, but let's try it again before the entire world.
Dan Vogel Yeah, I was being lazy. I have already gone over your stuff years ago, and that means that I have to *listen* to your video, and write it down. Better yet, if you have a link to a text of your discussion of the eight witnesses, please give it to me.
Dan Vogel 1. While you are at it, perhaps you can tell us about one of your sources, Stephen Burnett and his statement on how Martin Harris denied his testimony. Tell us about his relationship with Joseph Smith and the church. Since this was supposedly to be a public statgement by Harris, give us some supporting witnesses. Surely such an astonishing statement, MADE IN PUBLIC, would be all over the church, many witnesses to his statement. Or does Burnett, the bitter former member of the church, stand alone in his assertion. And tell us how you handled this source and statement in your conclusions. It goes to your agenda and, in my opinion, lack of objectivity and judgement. 2. Tell us about your source selection on the eight witnesses to the plates. I remember thaat beautiful, fanciful story that you related, so give us your sources. How does it fit the first hand account of the witnesses themselves where they hefted the plates, examined the individual pages and view the characters on the plates. How did you incorporate that into your story? Again, we are talking about source control, objectivity, the use of first hand vs second and third hand sources. The use of magical thinking in attempting to fill in the gaps of your explanation of what the witnesses saw and did not see.
I know that Joseph Smith was a true and living prophet of the Lord Jesus Christ. I've come to know and love Jesus Christ through reading the book of mormon. I truly hope you rid your anger and hatred and can live a better life.
What makes you think I'm angry or have hatred? Do you think that about your own missionaries who go around telling people they belong to false churches? I feel that I have lived a good life.
nothing that young Smith ever "found" was presented - the "norm" was all would be taken by spirits etc - Smith faced ridicule, arrest and being run off - Smith ran off with Emma Hale only to return to her Dad as a penniless Seer - and soon quit the hard farm work Mr Hale offered - the B of M is entirely an attempt to placate Hale and restore Smith's rep as a "Seer" to the locals- Smith was smart enough to pretend he had tried and failed to find the plates for 3 years... but it was Emma that made the 4th try work - "yes Mr Hale... If I had not run off with your daughter the plates would never be seen. God wanted her to elope with a Seer " [ God wanted Smith to Elope with a LOT of women ] - obv Hale told him to get lost, and the Penniless Seer now turned to Martin Harris for the living expenses and obv a new scam - all you have to do is write a book with a Copyright - the plates would never be shown as was the norm- so Smith wrote a Copyrighted book and went to sell it in Canada to pay back Mr Harris for the months spent living of him [ as was the norm ]- the book didn't sell - Mrs Harris was stirring up trouble and no gold was produced- the B of M is such an obv fraud - right from the orig title page
In using sleight of hand, Smith is not unusual at all in comparison with shamanic traditions everywhere since forever. Further, his use of seer stones as prompts to provoke what Jung called "active imagining" is nothing out of the ordinary. And the idea of the fall being a necessary part of the plan, though perhaps novel in the stale Christian context, is not novel from a comparative perspective. Most cultures have some sort of original transgression and expulsion from paradise. The way it fits into their overall mythological storyline and rituals necessarily implies that such fall is just a necessary part of the process of becoming conscious, or individuating, and also, on another level, of how we obtain our food and civilize ourselves. There must be a duality of subject and object to experience consciousness. But I suppose if people don't see that the story of the fall, more than anything else, is all about becoming conscious in the first place, this won't register. The Mormon stuff seriously needs to be fitted better into a comparative context. I highly recommend Michael Witzel, "The Origins of the World's Mythologies". And once one sees how foundational is the trickster archetype to the majority of cultures since before out-of-Africa, and how the trickster is associated both with the fall, descent and mischief on one hand and with innovation, progress, culture, fire, music, etc on the other hand, it becomes obvious that cultures around the world had an understanding of the seeming paradox that the fall--ostensibly a bad thing--is also a vital part of our becoming. In other terms, once father sky has been ripped apart from earth mother, pillars/columns/trees must be erected to maintain them apart. Otherwise--without this duality--there is no room for the parents' offspring to develop. All over Mesoamerica, for instance, one can see the iconography of the broken tree (consequence of the transgression in paradise, of taking illicitly from the tree). Out of the broken tree emerge all of life's riches. In the Aztec version, the trickster Tezcatlipoca seduced the goddess Xochiquetzal and they did take from the forbidden tree in the paradise of Tamoanchan. They were kicked out of Tamoanchan and down to earth, to participate in the cycles of death and rebirth between earth and underworld. The result of their illicit union was a bastard son, Itztlacoliuhqui-Cinteotl, personification of maize/corn. The acknowledgment of the necessity of the fall is loud and clear. So anyway, not much unusual about Smith.
Look at Smith as a treasure seeker, he had to believe on some level that he could find treasure, else, if a complete scam, it was one doom to fail quickly, leaving you sitting next to a big hole with a bunch of angry men with shovels. The fact that when, as you describe, there briefly appeared to be a treasure he could not return to his hat, betray a man who, like a moth was drawn to a flame but know enough to fear it heat. Smith was a man testing his faith in his god and himself. He was a multi-dimensional character, smart and self-serving seeing what he could get away with, and finding that god did not strike him dead for his blasphemy presumed the god must be endorsing them, he undoubtedly felt that he was special and the chosen of god, why else would god let him get away with things. The question of why others followed him is the more important one and why they continue to do so today in the face to some much contrary evidence, The leaders undoubtedly believe they too are chosen by virtue of the fact they are leaders and thus must protect their position as the chosen ones of god, much as Smith rationalize his world. The lessons here are in the power of self-deception, our ability to shape our understanding of the world in a way that justifies our position in it. Smith was a very human man no different from you or I, his lies just became bigger.
I think it's pretty clear that the motive started with money but by 1831 he wanted power and polygamy with the invention of the priesthood and changing John the Baptist as the spirit of eljiah fulfillment to himself in his translation of the Bible. His change of the Godhead occured after the Lectures of faith in 1835 perhaps for another motive. The motive is probably best found in the changes he made to the Bible and the reasoning why.
Quitting the Mormon Church (Unabridged) I have been thinking of quitting the Mormon Church. Yes, if I can, I am going to get even with that church. As soon as I can find another church that teaches about the Gathering of the House of Israel; the return of the Ten Tribes and their mission; the return of the Jews to Palestine and why, and how they are going to build the temple; the building of temples and what to do with them; the mission of Elias, the prophet, as predicted by Malachi; the method for the salvation of the people that died at the time of Noah in the flood; the origin of the American Indian; the complete explanation of why Jesus of Nazareth had to have a mortal mother but not a mortal father; the explanation of the three degrees of glory (three heavens) as mentioned by Paul; the complete explanation of why Elias and Moses did not die but had to be translated (since they both lived before the resurrection was introduced by Christ); the restoration of the gospel by modern revelation as promised by Peter and Paul and Jesus himself; the belief in eternal marriage and the family, and the knowledge and the place to seal for eternity; that teaches abstinence from all harmful drugs and foods; and that sells the best fire insurance policy on earth, for the last days, for only a tenth of my income. Yes sir, as soon as I can find another church that teaches all that, or even half as much, I will say good-bye to this Mormon Church. The church that I am looking for must also be able to motivate 90,000+ youth, and adults, for the first, second or third time, to leave their homes for two years at their own expense and go to far-away places to teach and preach without salary. It must be able to call, on a frosty day, some 5 or 6 thousand professors, students, lawyers, doctors, judges, policemen, businessmen, housewives and children to go and pick apples at 6 am. It must be able to call meetings and get the attention for two hours of more than 300,000 men. Yes, it must also teach and show why salvation is assured for children who die before eight years of age. Mr. Editor, could you help me find a church that teaches all that and more than hundreds of other doctrines and principles, which I have no room to mention here, and which brings solace and comfort to the soul; peace, hope, and salvation to mankind, and above all, that answers the key questions that all the great philosophers have asked; questions and answers that explain the meaning of life, the purpose of death, suffering and pain; the absolute need for a Redeemer and the marvelous plan conceived by our Father and executed by Jesus Christ the Savior? Yes, as soon as I find another church that teaches that, and also that has the organization and the powers to make that teaching effective, I am going to quit the Mormon Church. For I should not tolerate that “they” should change a few words in the Book of Mormon - even if those changes simply improve the grammar and the syntax of the verses - for, after all, don’t you think the Divine Church should employ angels as bookmakers, and clerks, to do all the chores on earth? Don’t you think, Mr. Editor that the Divine Church should also have prophets that don’t get sick and don’t get old and die, and certainly, that don’t make a goof here and there. No, sir! A Divine Church should be so divine that only perfect people should belong to it, and only perfect people should run it. As a matter of fact, the Church should be so perfect that it should not even be here on earth! So, I repeat, if any one of the kind readers of this imperfect letter knows about another church that teaches and does as much for mankind as the Mormon Church, please let me know. And please do it soon, because my turn to go to the cannery is coming up. Also, “they” want my last son (the fifth one) to go away for two years and again, I have to pay for all that. And I also know that they expect me to go to the farm to prune trees, and I have heard that our ward is going to be divided again, and it is our side that must build the new chapel. And also, someone the other day had the gall of suggesting that my wife and I get ready to go on a second mission, and when you come back, they said, you can volunteer as a temple worker. Boy, these Mormons don’t leave you alone for a minute. And what do I get for all that, I asked? “Well,” they said, “for one, you can look forward to a funeral service at no charge!”… Do you think you can help me to find another church? Thomas D. Clark
June Arvin Loza, I agree that the Mormon Church has many good people and does many good things. However, there are thousands of denominations of Christianity in the world. Pretty much all of them boast of their good works and of the wonderful changes they bring to the lives of their members. There are many non-Christian religions, as well: Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc. These also often boast about the good they do in the world and the joy they bring to the lives of their followers. If the Mormon Church is really God''s one and only church, and other religions are not, that should be obvious. And yet it isn't. You mention the sacrifices Mormon families make to send their children on missions. Catholic families also sacrifice their children to become priests, monks, and nuns, living lives of perpetual poverty and service. Many denominations do missionary work, including the Seventh Day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Muslims require that everyone capable of doing so undergo a difficult trip to Mecca, the hajj. The number of people undertaking the hajj each year is in the neighborhood of two million. You mention the teaching of abstinence from harmful drugs and foods. The Seventh Day Adventists advocate a healthy diet and discourage consumption of alcohol, tobacco, illegal drugs, and coffee. The Muslims discourage alcohol. Many other religions encourage healthy habits, including the Hindus. You complain that critics expect the Book of Mormon to be perfect. OK, but there are problems that crop up from that. If the Book of Mormon can be wrong, how can we tell if any of it is true? If the Book of Mormon is demonstrably wrong in small things that we can check, how much can we rely on it for the big things that are harder to check? And of course, it's not just the Book of Mormon. The Bible has a huge number of problems, ranging from minor contradictions to God ordering genocide and excusing slavery. The atonement itself is morally quite problematic. If someone has repented and God wants to forgive him, why can't he just forgive him? Why is the torture and death of an innocent person required? (Humans are capable of forgiving someone who has harmed them without requiring a blood sacrifice. But somehow God can't do that.) Have you ever read the entire Bible, from the first page of Genesis to the last page of Revelation? If God exists and loves us, why would he not make it clear to everyone who he is and what he wants us to do? Why would God leave mankind to apostasy for centuries without doing anything about it? Why would God leave millions of people without any knowledge of him at all for thousands of years, as with the Chinese? Call it the problem of divine hiddenness. Or maybe just that for someone who is frequently described as almighty, God seems like quite an underachiever.
@@exmormonroverpaula2319 Isaiah 55: 8-9 8 ¶ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
@@exmormonroverpaula2319 How about prophet and apostles Sir?, how about priesthood? Elijah's mission, purpose of temple, the lost books; The so-called lost books of the Bible are those documents that are mentioned in the Bible in such a way that it is evident they were considered authentic and valuable but that are not found in the Bible today. Sometimes called missing scripture, they consist of at least the following: book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14); book of Jasher (Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18); book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:41); book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29:29; 2 Chr. 9:29); prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9:29); visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9:29; 12:15; 13:22); book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12:15); book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20:34); sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33:19); an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9); possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3); an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4:16); and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1:14). To these rather clear references to inspired writings other than our current Bible may be added another list that has allusions to writings that may or may not be contained within our present text but may perhaps be known by a different title; for example, the book of the covenant (Ex. 24:7), which may or may not be included in the current book of Exodus; the manner of the kingdom, written by Samuel (1 Sam. 10:25); the rest of the acts of Uzziah written by Isaiah (2 Chr. 26:22). The foregoing items attest to the fact that our present Bible does not contain all of the word of the Lord that He gave to His people in former times and remind us that the Bible, in its present form, is rather incomplete. Matthew’s reference to a prophecy that Jesus would be a Nazarene (2:23) is interesting when it is considered that our present Old Testament seems to have no statement as such. There is a possibility, however, that Matthew alluded to Isa. 11:1, which prophesies of the Messiah as a Branch from the root of Jesse, the father of David. The Hebrew word for branch in this case is netzer, the source word of Nazarene and Nazareth. Additional references to the Branch as the Savior and Messiah are found in Jer. 23:5; 33:15; Zech. 3:8; 6:12; these use a synonymous Hebrew word for branch, tzemakh. The Book of Mormon makes reference to writings of Old Testament times and connection that are not found in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or in any other known source. These writings are of Zenock, Zenos, and Neum (1 Ne. 19:10; Alma 33:3-17). An extensive prophecy by Joseph in Egypt (which is not in the Bible) is also apparent from 2 Ne. 3:4-22, and a prophecy of Jacob (not found in the Bible) is given in Alma 46:24-26. These writings were evidently contained on the plates of brass spoken of in the Book of Mormon (1 Ne. 5:10-13).
@@exmormonroverpaula2319 Ever since I didn't see mormon vloggers attacking others people's beliefs. Why attacking Mormonism? What did the Church did you? Or to them? Is that what they learned from their church? Is that what their church teaching? Not to respect other's people's beliefs? I don't get it, why always attacking Mormonism.
He sounds like a psychedelic astranaut. The story may not be true as he stated it, but it sure caused an organization to rise. No princess lives in the Disney castle, but kids and adult alike travel around the world and spend $$$ to prentend one does.
Money…….. Power over women. …And praise of men…….Were his motives. It was found in his pocket ,this is absolutely the most blasphemous man that ever lived
the essential teachings of Mormonism are really great! It uplifts people and prepares them for the things that are not good. I am happy that I was raised Mormon and taught to think for myself however, I realized that I can find the truth for myself and did not need the crutch of the church anymore. I will instill these principles in my children and I am living my truth that I found through Mormonism! Joseph Smith was just a man who was inspired to teach others his truth but got caught up in his abilities to persuade people to follow him.........he became of the world because he was of the world. that does not mean that his initial message was not good. Lets take the good from people and stop trying to deny what they were placed here to do. I do not believe in the Doctrine and Covenants nor the Pearl of Great Price and have never read them because I knew. (inspired by God, the universal higher self) that they were not true.........he wrote those when he was starting to believe his own hype and wanted the life of the world.
I am not a professional counselor but have experiance and knoweldege on psycopath behaviour. I have read a lot and could say his way of being includes narcisism, sociopathy, psychopathy, machiavellianism. Since I found out all that stuff that you mention in your video, I have been looking for answers towards all his deeds...
By the way, the thing you put as "admitting" to his "treasure seeking" was just a letter saying he was employed by a man that wanted to mine for silver....Not sure what your talking about there...
The church, on its website, says he used the same seer stone for his treasure seeking and for sticking in his hat to create the BoM. So take up your gripes with them.
At least you make your own video's, though i do not see you speaking to anyone. I am the only one who can answer those question's, as i figured out the puzzle. To bad you don't talk to anyone.
Well you've taken into account all the variables of Joseph Smith's actions and personalities except one... What if everything he claimed to have happened, actually did? What if he actually did have and hold a stack of golden plates? What if he did actually converse with heavenly beings? Ridiculous? Perhaps, but not to be dismissed, out-of-hand without some consideration.. Remember, there were others, who both claimed to have both seen and handled the gold plates. Their names are found in the preface of the Book of Mormon. While some of them admittedly left the Church, none of them ever recanted their claim concerning the gold plates. So if the whole thing is one big hoax, it involves others besides Joseph. The crux of the complaints against Joseph Smith however, are overshadowed by the Book of Mormon, which speaks for itself. I dare anyone to read it and find anything in it, emphatically wrong, non-biblical or contradictory in any way, to Christian theology.
Hi James. Uh, are we talking about the original 1830 edition? Cause on page 200 of the 1830 edition it says: "And now Limhi was again filled with joy, on learning from the mouth of Ammon that king Benjamin had a gift from God, whereby he could interpret such engravings;" A similar mistake is made in the modern Ether 4. The modern version changes "king Benjamin" to Mosiah- on account of king Benjamin dying earlier. So that's a big mistake.
Also, have you heard of James Strang? Some of my ancestors followed him. His book was translated from plates unearthed in America as well. He also has witnesses... So what's the deal? It's almost like someone can witness for something because they believe... not because it's true.
@@bobbilderson8556 Yes, "Strangites" Upon the death of Joseph Smith (1844) there was a brief power struggle. James Strang and some of his followers, were among them. According to Wikipedia, there remains about 130 active members throughout the entire United States. With a grand-total of 130 folks, I'd say that makes them nearly extinct. Either way, Strangites embraced the Book of Mormon. as well as their own stuff. So is it possible for folks to come together to support a falsehood? Sure. The possibility of conspiracy however, doesn't prove there was one. In fact all of the official witnesses to the Book of Mormon, had serious grievances with Joseph Smith and the LDS Church. These led to excommunications but none recanted their original testimonies (no matter what you may have read.) BTW, there are many current offshoots of the LDS Church. More than a dozen right now and perhaps more than 100 historically. Strangites were one of them.
@@bobbilderson8556 So what, a mistake? So I suppose the Bible has zero errors of any kind? Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon were written by men and translated by men and both contain errors and inconsistencies. No big deal. The preface to the Book of Mormon even admits the possibility of errors.
@@jamesbaldwin7676 I'm not advocating either for or against the Church. I'm just seeing what your worldview entails. What condition would have to be met for you to change your mind and leave the Church? If you cannot even think of one, then you're not actually considering that you might be wrong. Which is fine in many cases. People believe in wrong things every day. However, if you are to even consider the possibility that you're wrong, then you shouldn't try to reason with others. It's like playing a chess game with no pieces. You aren't trying to find truth, you're just trying to vent. Which, that's fine. You can vent here if you'd like. To illustrate this point further: You know that all kinds of people cling to absurd positions when they are sufficiently motivated. You need to be sure you're not doing this as well. For example: in the Heaven's Gate cult, their two leaders told them they would board a spacecraft with their physical bodies. However, when one of the two leaders died from cancer, instead of disbelieving, the trial of their faith made them believe more strongly. They decided that in order to board the UFO to reach the next level, they needed to shed their earthly vehicle (i.e. kill themselves). Instead of the evidence convincing them against their belief, it hardened their conviction. This is what happens when people have invested a significant amount in an organization, and they are constantly surrounded by only view points that agree with them. (That's why I admire you, James, for being willing to watch this kind of video.) It took more effort for the Heaven's Gate members to admit that they were wrong - than to kill themselves. Admitting they were wrong would mean they abandoned their family for years, wasted their time and talents, that they weren't the special ones chosen by the reincarnated Christ, and that they wouldn't actually be saved in the next level. I think it would be cool to live forever in the afterlife with my wife and children and to become like God. I hope that's the case. However, honest seekers of truth are willing to put everything on the line: their reputation with their friends and family, and even the mental possibility of meeting their family again. Are you willing to put that on the line, James, and actually find out the truth, or are you just here venting/patching up your own beliefs? Are you willing to genuinely consider which positions makes more sense, or are you trying to fit your position onto everything?
Vogel's problem with this whole psycho babble analysis (he is a historian, not a mind reader) is that there are at least twelve (12) witnesses to various divine events relative to Joseph Smith's prophetic mission. This includes viewing the plates, having a shared vision of Christ, and the presence of divine messengers (angels). Well, of course he has an explanation. He completely ignores the actual statements, for example, of the eight witnesses who said that they handled the plates, hefted them, and viewed the engravings. He then makes up a fictional story without one shred of documented evidence. It is a fantasy that he dreamed up to explain the witness testimony. There is one meager quote by a third party about "spiritual eyes", but no explanation is given on exactly what that means, and, indeed, whether the witness actually used that term itself. Finally the three witnesses themselves continued to affirm their testimony, even after leaving the church for various personal reasons, even after the death of Joseph Smith, and finally each one giving a death bed testimony, which would be acceptable in any court of law as true. None of these twelve witnesses denied their testimony. So, Vogel is left with the difficult task of explaining this as either a co-conspracy, which he admits is unlikely, or that JS had some amazing capacity of deceiving twelve individuals, on separate occasions, on the outside (not hidden) of any building that they saw angels, plates that had the appearance of gold, and hearing the voice of God.
cdowis As I told you elsewhere, the published testimonies oversimplify what appears to have been a more complex situation. But that is not relevant to the video, which assumes the BOM is not historical. Given that the BOM is not historical, what were his motives? How did he justify his actions? If you won't concede that point, at least for the sake of discussion, you can't really participate in this discussion.
Dan Vogel I have a personal knowledge that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, it is scripture, it is the revealed word of God. The Lord gave it to us in these latter days as a second witness of Jesus ChrisT and His resurrection Sooooo, I guess we have nothing to talk about.
Personal testimony only means something to you, so why bring it up? If you want to bear your testimony, go to church. You are wasting my time by trying to be cute instead of honestly responding to what I wrote above.
Dan Vogel So much for the witness's "The printed statement of the 'Three Witnesses,' as contained in the front of the Book of Mormon, states that they saw the plates and the engravings. Another statement of eight witnesses adds that they 'hefted' the plates. "Many ask, 'Certainly, they wouldn’t testify to something unless it was true! Or, would they?' "WHO WROTE THE TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF THE BOOK OF MORMON? "Where did the printed statement of the 'Three Witnesses'--Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer--come from? Did they actually write the testimony themselves? No! "It is believed that Joseph Smith wrote the statement for them to sign. This appears to be evident since, at that time, he knew none of the witnesses had ever seen the plates with their natural eyes, as they themselves later admitted. Yet, when he worded it, he deliberately gave the impression they had. "Stretching or misrepresenting the truth was no problem for Smith, for he had altered other revelations. According to Apostle William E. McLellin, the testimony of the Twelve Apostles contained in the Introduction to the Doctrine and Covenants, was a 'base forgery' and Smith had seriously altered other revelations. David Whitmer, one of the Three witnesses, accused Joseph of the same thing. "WHAT DID 'THE WITNESSES' SEE? "Whatever they saw and by whatever means, it was not in the dimension of physical reality. "Martin Harris admitted he never saw anything with his natural eyes. He stated: 'I never saw the golden plates, only in a visionary or entranced state.' "Further, he admitted the same to the printer who was working on the first edition of the Book of Mormon: "'During the printing of the first edition of the Book of Mormon, he (Harris) was in the print shop while the type was being set for the testimony of the three witnesses. The printer, John Gilbert, asked him if he had seen the plates with his naked eye. “Martin looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, ‘No, I saw them with a spiritual eye.” "He further told a Palmyra lawyer, who asked him: 'Did you see the plates and the engravings upon them with your bodily eyes?' He responded: "'I did not see them as I do that pencil-case, yet I saw them with the eye of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me--though at the time they were covered with a cloth.' "Harris further let the cat out of the bag when he revealed that the other eight witnesses saw no plates either. On April 15, 1838, Stephen Burnett gave the following report: "'I have reflected long and deliberately upon the history of this church & weighed the evidence for & against it - loth to give it up - but when I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver nor David & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave away . . . . I therefore three weeks since in the Stone Chapel gave . . . the reasons why I took the course which I was resolved to do, and renounced the Book of Mormon. . . . "'I was followed by W. Parrish, Luke Johnson & John Boynton, all of who concurred with me, (sic) after we were done speaking M. Harris arose & said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true, he said he had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them, but he never saw them, only as he saw a city through a mountain. And said that he never should have told that the testimony of the eight was false, if it had not been picked out of (him) but should have let it passed as it was.' "So, in reality, the witnesses saw nothing! “'Well,' some might insist, 'Doesn’t the "eye of faith" count? Harris and the eight wouldn’t have signed a statement if they hadn’t seen something!' "What they saw, was a product of their own mind. Remember, by Harris’ own admission, everything he and the others saw, came as a vision. Historical accounts reflect that the witnesses were effectively induced to see the plates in a vision because of Smith’s mesmerizing methods. "First, Smith persisted in badgering them by telling them that only the faithful could see them. That kind of remark would intimidate the best of men. "Persuasion of this nature is similar to the ploy Mormon missionaries presently use. to the investigator (potential convert), they read Moroni’s promise at the end of the Book of Mormon, which says that if one asks God in the name of Christ, with a sincere heart, the truth will be manifest by the Holy Ghost. "This can’t help but suggest to the investigator that if he doesn’t get an answer, he or she is not sincere. It doesn’t take much for the investigator to be intimidated, especially when the missionaries say others have received an answer. “What’s wrong with me,” the Investigator asks of himself. 'Why won’t God give me a confirmation?' "As a result of this kind of pressure, many Investigators keep praying until they do get some kind of manifestation. It may be goose bumps or some kind of sensation; but, they finally take it as an answer, even if it is produced by their own psyche. "However, for Mormons, that’s okay. The Mormon Church teaches that feelings are the way God authenticates truth. That should sound an alarm, for that is not what the Bible teaches! "One should use a combination of methods. First, pray to initiate guidance in (1) researching the facts; (2) comparing the facts with God’s Word; (3) receiving counsel from other Christians; then, (4) pray to confirm what has been gleaned. Decision making must utilize every avenue at one’s disposal. In other words, God gave us a brain to use. He doesn’t expect us, as Josh McDowell [a Christian apologist, for the record] says, to commit 'intellectual suicide.' "Similarly, Smith used the same devious manipulative method of intimidation. Playing upon the witnesses’ emotions, he engineered them into conjuring up a vision by telling them God was not allowing them to see the plates because they were 'unworthy' and needed to 'repent.' With that kind of pressure, individuals will see exactly what they are expected to see. "An example of how Smith coerced the Eight Witnesses to see a vision, was told to the Governor of Illinois, Thomas Ford, by more than one of Smith’s key men: "'They [Smith’s men] told Ford that the witnesses were “set to continual prayer, and other spiritual exercises.” Then at last “he assembled them in a room, and produced a box which he said contained the precious treasure. The lid was opened; the witnesses peeped into it, but making no discovery, for the box was empty, they said, "Brother Joseph, we do not see the plates." The prophet answered them, "O ye of little faith! how long will God bear with this wicked and perverse generation? Down on your knees, brethren, every one of you, and pray God for the forgiveness of your sins, and for a holy and living faith which cometh down from heaven." The disciples dropped to their knees, and began to pray in the fervency of their spirit, supplicating God for more than two hours with fanatical earnestness; at the end of which time, looking again into the box, they were now persuaded that they saw the plates.' "That they saw the plates with their spiritual eyes instead of natural, accounts for newspaper reports which said that all Three Witnesses told different versions. This 'makes it all the more likely,' author Fawn Brodie notes in her book 'No Man Knows My History,' 'that the men were not conspirators but victims of Joseph’s unconscious but positive talent at hypnosis.' "THE INVALIDITY OF THEIR TESTIMONY "If the plates really existed, then it would not have been necessary for Smith to force 'the witnesses' to pray until they conjured up a vision of plates in an “empty” box. "If the plates had been a physical reality, it certainly would have provided all eleven witnesses with a stronger testimony that Mormonism was indeed God’s work. "In view of this, it is not surprising that all of the witnesses, with the exception of Smith’s father, his two brothers and two who died, left the church. Not very impressive. "DID 'THE WITNESSES' EVER DENY THEIR TESTIMONY? "The Mormon Church, of course, claims that none of the 'Three Witnesses' ever denied their testimony. But, Oliver Cowdery, according to the Mormon publication 'Times and Seasons,' did deny. Published in 1841, J.H. Johnson reflected the sentiments of the community by writing a poem attempting to reflect the fact that men may be untrue to the truth. The last stanza reads: "'Or prove that Christ was not the Lord Because that Peter cursed and swore? Or Book of Mormon not his word Because denied, by Oliver?' "Oliver Cowdery, indeed, left the Mormon Church and joined the Methodist Church. He also said he was willing to make a public recantation and that he was 'sorry and ashamed of his connection with Mormonism.' "The Mormon Church, however, claims Cowdery came back to the Church. But, if he did, he must have left again, because when he died he was buried by a Methodist minister in Richmond, Missouri. "David Whitmer, still believing in the Book of Mormon (probably because of the many Biblical passages in it), became a member of the Church of Christ and died rejecting the LDS Church. "Martin Harris joined Anna Lee’s church, the Shakers, saying that his testimony of Shakerism was greater than that of the Book of Mormon. Although later in life he came back to the Mormon Church and took out his temple endowments, he admitted it was just to find out 'what was going on in there.' "Interestingly, as often happens with time and celebrity status, there are accounts in 'the witnesses’' later years, where they greatly enlarged their testimony. They are quoted as giving very different and exaggerated accounts--much different than during their earlier years. Fawn Brodie notes, in 'No Man Knows My History,' that David Whitmer’s testimony, given 49 years later, was too 'richly embellished.' Whitmer added a long list of things he supposedly saw, which were not mentioned in his earlier account: 'the Brass Plates, the plates of the Book of Ether . , . . a table with many records or plates upon it . . . also the Sword of Laban, the directors - i.e., the ball which Lehi had, and the Interpreters.' "Martin Harris, in the last five years of his life, also gave an extraordinary testimony. "Considering that 'the witnesses' admitted years earlier to seeing the plates in a “vision” or 'entranced state,' rather than as a physical reality, one must conclude that the embellishments of their testimony in later years was received in the same manner. "Their motive? Mormon writer Richard L. Anderson says, 'Martin Harris, like all 'the witnesses,' was especially desirous at the end of his life to have people hear and repeat his testimony.' Why not? By that time, they had become celebrities! "WHAT WOULD MOTIVATE 'THE WITNESSES' TO MAINTAIN THEIR TESTIMONY ABOUT THE PLATES, IN SPITE OF THEIR REJECTION OF THE MORMON CHURCH? "Why would 'the witnesses' persevere in their testimony about the plates, even though they left the Mormon Church? "There are five possible reasons: "· They didn’t want to disillusion and destroy the faith of those who were converted to the Book of Mormon because of their testimony. "· They may have retained a special feeling for the Book of Mormon because of its many Biblical passages. "· Since their declaration is stated in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, they would not only be guilty of perjury, but their credibility would be suspect the rest of their life. "· They would look pretty silly telling people that what they testified to and allowed to appear in print, really didn’t happen. "· They began to enjoy their celebrity status and, so, in time, embellished their story. "WHAT EXACTLY DID THE OTHER 'EIGHT WITNESSES' 'HEFT'? "'The Eight Witnesses' stated they actually hefted the gold plates. They described them as 'weighing between 40 and 60 pounds and being approximately eight inches long, five or six inches wide, and five or six inches thick.' "In the first place, there is no way they could have lifted them in the casual manner they describe. According to the measurements these plates of gold would have weighed nearly 230 pounds! "Nevertheless, they must have hefted something. Therefore, it is believed that Smith may have duped them in the same way he duped two friends, William T. Hussey and Azel Vandruver. "Showing them the supposed plates concealed beneath a canvas, Smith convinced them they were so sacred that if they looked directly upon them they would die. "One of the friends, however, was so anxious that he ripped off the canvas, saying 'Egad, I’ll see the critter, live or die!' What did he see?--Nothing but 'a large tile brick.' "Bold as that individual was, it would be safe to assume that 'the Eight Witnesses' were not so bold. Defy Smith and risk immediate death? But, whatever it was they hefted, covered with a cloth, canvas or otherwise, Smith was able to persuade them it was the original plates which were delivered by an angel. "Smith, however, was always pulling tricks like this and took great delight in fooling people. Once, after a rain shower, Smith discovered some white sand. He 'tied up several quarts of it [in his ‘frock’] and then went home.' His family was eager to know what he had. Smith later told Peter Ingersol: "'At that moment I happened to think about a history found in Canada, called the Golden Bible; so I very gravely told them it was the Golden Bible. To my surprise they were credulous enough to believe what I said.' "COULD JOSEPH HAVE FORGED FALSE PLATES AND ENGRAVINGS? "What about the engravings the later witnesses claimed they saw on the plates? Their first account states a 'vision,' but later a reality. "At a later point, many feel that Smith concocted some kind of plates of his own. Oliver Cowdery could certainly have made such a set, engravings and all, since he’d been a blacksmith in his youth. Fawn Brodie, in her book, also suggests that Joseph built a makeshift set of plates. "By making real plates, Smith hoped to make money by exhibiting them. John C. Bennett, a close associate, said that Smith asked him to go to New York and obtain some falsely engraved plates so that he could exhibit them, at '25 cents a sight.' While anything Bennett could say might be suspect considering his reputation, nevertheless, in this instance, his story was backed up by Sarah, the wife of Mormon historian and Apostle, Orson Pratt. "When one researches the facts (instead of relying on feelings), one can only reach one conclusion: the plates were an elaborate hoax. "One has to pity 'the witnesses' who, at first, may not have wished to testify to something that wasn’t true. They were manipulated and intimidated by a man they believed was a prophet of God to the point where they finally induced a vision. "It is also thought by some, that they were influenced further because of the family connections. Four of 'the eight witnesses' were Whitmers; Hiram Page married a Whitmer daughter; and three were members of Joseph’s own family. Mark Twain later observed: I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified. "What did 'the witnesses' of the Book of Mormon really see? Plates, which admittedly were always covered with a cloth. Plates which they only saw in a 'vision' or 'entranced state'--never with their 'natural' eyes. "These 'witnesses’' testimony of the gold plates has attracted over nine million converts to the Mormon Church (as of 1996), which doubles its population every 10 to 12 years at the rate of 840 new members a day. "Mormons continue to be deceived, along with many unsuspecting converts, who accept this story without investigating the facts. . . .
+cdowis "Personal knowledge?" Voices told you? You dreamed it? What bs! No court in the world would buy that pile of manure. You have no knowledge because you have nothing independently verifiable.
I’m LDS. Watched the whole video and enjoyed it a lot. I’m not trying to be willfully ignorant, but I do still believe he was a prophet. But I completely understand how he can not be viewed as a prophet. I just have had spiritual experiences that I feel told me it’s true. Everyone can have there own opinion though
In the same way that the Pharisees of Jesus days,,,who were the highly educated men of scripture,,,who crucify the lord,, ,it is in your highly educated opinion,,,who is and is not a man appointed by god,,,a prophet,,,,and point out a few things of what he did do or didn't do!!!regardless of all the things that he did do ...you want to claim that JS is not a man of god...just like the Pharisees. Who said that Jesus was of the devil..I would suggest to anyone that is listening to YOUR OPINIONS!!!! to take the time and read the book of Mormon,,,and come to your own opinion,,,n not rely on other people's opinions...just because this man has his opinion...doesn t mean anything...who cares what he says...how many things can you name where man gave his opinion,,and was WRONG!!!And let this man join the Pharisees,,,where ever they may be!!!and never let anyone influence you and your own opinion...take the time and do your own research!!!and let your own truths,,set u free...
Larry Debaker, I agree that it's a good idea to read the Book of Mormon and come to your own opinion. I also think it's a great idea for every Christian to read the entire Bible, from the first page of Genesis to the last page of Revelation.
I think most people over think the whole restoration of the Lords church through the prophet Joseph Smith. In my opinion if he Had he been a false prophet the church would not be bearing all the good The church does throughout the world. In my opinion people tend to over complicate things and rely too much on What other people such as yourself has to say. Everyone is entitled to an Opinion. But doesn't mean it's gonna be correct. I
Dave Watson, you'd think that if Muhammad had been a false prophet people would have figured it out long ago. But today there are about 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. Every religion brags about the good it does in the world and the terrific benefits it brings to its followers.
None of us is qualified to comment on Joseph Smith's motives on any subject. We can only comment on his actions as reported by primary eye witnesses, and here we can not be sure that our interpretations are accurate. Those who impute bad motives to Joseph Smith are telling us much more about themselves than about Joseph.
@@p154220 you make an assertion that no one is qualified to pry into a person's mind and discern their motives. Yet, as humans that is what we do every day. We make guesses as to why people do what they do. Our criminal justice system is based on this principle. It seems more likely that you are personally offended by this video's suppositions, as it implies that anyone who believes that Joseph Smith was a true prophet is a fool for doing so.
We are humans. We are all qualified to comment on people's motives. It's how we survive. It's part of being human. in this case, Dan does his research. So I believe him.
yes he's a joke....he boasted about he did more than any man did including JESUS.. he blasphemy the LORD.....JESUS died for his sins....well u know where he's @ n the the rest of his followers......rt now they're waiting for the 2nd coming of Jesus to receive His tru church n those believed in joseph smith to resurrection of damnation....the bible is very clear on that..
Thank you for giving YOUR version of what he said. .... Anyway, I suppose you "forgot" that Peter himself denied Christ three times, that he almost killed one of the servants in the Garden of Gethsemane. The Lord calls fallible humans as His prophets. They say and do silly things but they are still the prophetic messengers for Christ.
***** God created man in His image, and Joseph Smith revealed that the Father has a physical body of flesh and bones even as Christ did after the resurrection. D&C 130: 22 22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us. As Christ said, if ye have seen me, ye have seen the Father.
Clairvoyance - - What Smith's enemies accuse him of while engaging in the same. I really have to wonder what people such as Dan Vogel hope to achieve by spending hundreds of hours creating UA-cam videos against Joseph Smith. Is he actually accomplishing anything useful or good? Not in the least. It's merely a hobby for him to make such disputes, to have "fun" because he has nothing better to do with his time. Prove me wrong.
I'm just a historian. I liked studying Mormon history as a believer. This interest didn't stop when I stopped believing. Historians study history, why not Mormonism? Historians write books and make videos about history of many things, why not Mormonism?
@@danvogel6802 - Yes. But when it comes to religion, it's best to get it straight from the horse's mouth, and be able to comprehend and interpret it all correctly, and in context. If your only source is from the outside, then you're not getting much information. That would be like getting the history of Germany from the point of view of Adolph Hitler.
@@scotthullinger9955 Who is the "horse" in your silly scenario here? Vogel gets his stuff from reading the writings of the people contemporary to JS. I can't imagine a better source than that.
he was such a con man- have you read the original Section 1 of the D&C ? The very fact he changed it the way he did proves he had nothing but lies coming down the track.
Richard Holmes You are truly a Mormonite minion Richard, And because of that Richard, when you die, and you will one day, HELL will be the place where you will be going. it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh - even fifty six years should wind up the scene. (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182). This Failed prophecy was spoken by Joseph Smith in 1835, and recorded by Oliver Cowdery. The fifty-six years were passed by 1891. Verily, thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto the world. (Doctrine & Covenants 114:1) This Failed prophecy was made on April 17, 1838. David W. Patten died in October of 1838 and thus never went on a mission the following spring. Shall I go on Richard ?
How about the Kirtland anti-bank?? It sort of failed, I think. When this so-called "prophecy" failed, Joe found himself riding out of town quickly, with pissed-off investors in hot pursuit! He'd already experienced tar-and-feathering for attempting to seduce a young girl, and was not about to undergo that ordeal again.
It's good and important to seek the truth, and listen too different points of view, however to truly know if Joseph Smith was a prophet of God requires knowledge from the true source God. Just ask with a sincere heart:) because he is
Sweetie. No. Just no. There is no such thing as a 'sincere heart.' The bible mentiones many times how the heart is deceitful. Smith fails EVERY SINGLE TEST of a TRUE prophet of God. Check it out in Deuteronomy. Absolutely NONE of his 'prophecies' came true. And don't even get me started on his biggest fraud, the so called Book of Abraham. Which was actually a funeral prayer that had to do with Osiris, Isis, and Horus. I feel so sorry for Mormons, who are generally good people who love the Lord, but have been so deceived by Smith.
Michelle Solis, what makes you think the Bible is true? Have you ever read the entire Bible, from the first page of Genesis to the last page of Revelation?
This video is completely misguiding. I talked to some of the Mormon missionaries and I asked them about this. You should do the same if you want the truth. Also those pictures were actually of a civil war general not Joseph smith.
wow. reread what you just wrote and see if you can see what is wrong with your rationale. of course they told you a different story. i taught the same "truth" when i was serving as a missionary. the problem is that the missionaries themselves are deluded and misguided by falsities and untrue content. perhaps a little objective research would help you out.
Jacob Young: The Mormon History Association (to which the top Mormon and LDS historians belong) awarded Dan their "Turner-Bergera Best Biography" award in May 2005 for his excellent biography "JOSPEH SMITH: THE MAKING OF A PROPHET." Another Mormon historical society--the John Whitmer Historical Association--awarded the book their "Best Book of the Year" award in 2004. Dan is an outstanding historian and if you are unfamiliar with the contents of this video, it ,may be because you have not studied enough of the documents that the first generation of Mormon themselves wrote. Also the drawing of Joseph Smith in uniform was created IN HIS LIFE TIME when he served as the of the Nauvoo Legion--the second largest military unit in the United States at the time. As a Civil War historical writer myself, the uniform that Joseph is wearing looks nothing like the uniforms worn during the years of the Civil War (1861-1865).
Or he was a deluded psychopathic meglomaniac who used "revelation" to further his own ends, especially getting under the skirts of women. Just like mohammed I might add.
+Mattias Ristholm A test of your Christian/American principles: Will you publicly condemn the murder of Joseph Smith? (Whether or not you like him) Will you condemn the fraudulent intrusion into Mormon temples with a hidden camera? These are basic American values of property rights and privacy rights. Also, the Christian golden rule is in play. Do you condemn them?
+ John lee. I like this comment John. You're accurately on to something. Actions speak louder than words. The saddest thing about those who leave the church is the first thing they forget is to allow all people to worship who,where, and what they may. They are not Christian, they are critics.
John Lee +John Lee. Why do you ask? Still out to get me? Still out to defame my carachter so you don't have to process any of my arguments? Well I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you have honorable intentions. First it needs to be pointed out that my views regarding your questions do not in any way redeem JS from his apparent lack of carachter. Even if I am the biggest a-hole on the planet my sentiments regarding him are still valid. Secondly I am not american so what you mean by christian christian/american principles is not clear to me. To me they are not always the same. I think JS deserved a fair trial as do any criminal so no I do not approve of a mob killing him. As for your second question what I think of that is absolutely irrelevant to whether the mormon church is based on a massive fraud or not. I think that the covert filming is a gray area, ethicly. The person who did it was a mormon so if anyone would film a temple cermony it is more ethical than if an outsider would do it. I think secret societies are repugnant to an open democratic nation. So in that sense I think it's all good that people expose groups like the masons or a masonic offshoot like temple mormonism. As I think the LDS is a based on fraud exposing it is doing society a service. In this case I would label it as civil disobidience. As a general rule I do not approve of secret filming thou. So how do you feel about JS killing two people from the mob? How do you feel about him calling out the the masonic call of distress while falling out the window?
I believe in Christ. I believe in Saint'n. Which one commands us to Obey, and to Not Question, as the first and Great commandment, and the second like unto it?
Dan Vogel; You are part of the continuing controversy of false accusations and spurious charges, that have always surrounded the Lord himself when he was on His ministry and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints. You are precisely like those old, who in their very cruelest manner nailed their Savior and King to a wooden cross, and are as guilty as those wicked men were. For you, like they, bring forth false and spurious charges against a loving Father of salvation. In a way, you are doing a service, by doing this, you are showing just where the real Church of Jesus Christ is. For Satan certainly knows, and it is he who inspires a continual attack against the Lord's works. Satan can not abide anyone to go on, when he cannot. He is most miserable, and he is seeking company, in his misery. He is dedicated to the destruction of all of God's works. And those who view this swirling controversy, immediately know just where to look for the true church of the Lamb, so that they may partake and have a life of joy. The Lord has always spoken through prophets ( Amos 3:7) unless He is upon the earth Himself. Why don't you know that? And why don't you ever read the bible, to find out how to distinguish a true prophet from a false one? ( Matthew 16:13-20 ) There is plenty of biblical scripture that speaks of a restoration, and 'that' wouldn't be needed 'if' there wasn't a falling away, .. now would it? And how shall 'that' be done?? Again, Amos 3:7 tells us in very plain language how 'that' shall happen. SciPro
Sci Pro, why should I believe the Bible? Have you ever read the entire Bible, from the first page of Genesis to the last page of Revelation? I find the whole idea of an apostasy very strange. Why would God leave his church without guidance for thousands of years? What was the point of that?
There is a ton of "historical" evidence (archeological & *newer* DNA studies) now confirming the existence of the vast "Moundbuilder" and Adena peoples (possessing Near East mitochondrial DNA H-subgroup(s) X2a and X2j), and much of the archeological evidence found in North America (swords, cimeters, breast plates, farming implements, etc.) has now been carbon dated and strongly supports Book of Mormon timelines. Only misleading sycophants who choose to remain willfully ignorant on these subjects (such as Mr. Vogel) will continue to promote the false assertion that no such evidence exists.
R. Holt, take a look at the "LDS Truth Claims" series of videos by Brett McDonald. Even LDS scholars do not necessarily agree with you on these points.
Paul said if we or a angel from heaven preaches any other doctrine let him be accursed galatians chapter 1 so we had to wait 1800 years after jesus died to fulfill the gospel jesus never said that to his apostles he said go preach the gospel 2000 yrs ago I was perplexed by mormons cause they seem good and I'm a average joe so I prayed n there doctrine does not line up to the bible which I believe amen
Hands down the best video I've seen in a very long time - well articulated, clear and so freakin informative! Loved every second of this presentation, thank you so much for your time and effort in putting it all together, simply brilliant.
It's possible that he may have started out as a pious fraud, but his increased appetite for power, money and women clearly allows his description to be shorted by the unnecessary adjective.
Hahaha Joseph Smith was so poor he had to rent out spare rooms to make ends meet when he had 30,000 followers. You are a liar.
@@henochparks
Seems kind of unwise for a poor man to marry 14 women. 1 woman would be challenging enough financially for a poor man. Maybe his polygamy had something to do with his poverty?
@@prayunceasingly2029 HAHAHA.. produce the marriage records. Produce just one.....
@@henochparks
You deny Joe smith's polygamy? That's the funniest.
@@henochparks
Even Mormons accept he was a polygamist
I believe that Joseph Smith JR initially got the idea of becoming a prophet from his Father Joseph Smith Senior who had talked about having a great prophet for a son long before Joseph Smith JR claimed to have visions. Joseph Smith JR was encouraged by his Father who was a restorationist. Joseph Smith JR didn't fit into the religious communities of his time because they were all traditional Christian sects so Joseph Smith JR created his own sect that claimed they were all wrong and modeled it after the restorationist ideals of his Father. Joseph Smith tried to join the Methodist Church in 1828 but was rejected by the Methodists for his involvement in folk magic. Just 2 years later Joseph Smith JR started his own Church in 1830. Every time that Joseph Smith would encounter a problem in his life he would "inquire of the Lord" and come up with a very convenient revelation on the matter. If God was in charge of the restoration of his "one true church" then God would have been giving the information to Smith without him having to inquire about it. Instead, the doctrine would be received as the problems were encountered. For example, when the Smith family was upset about a minister telling them that Alvin went to hell for not being baptized, Joseph Smith resolved the issue by coming up with baptism for the dead. When Joseph Smith was caught committing adultery then he came up with D&C 132 which threatened Emma with destruction if she divorced Joesph Smith JR (D&C 132:54). A self serving revelation like that shows Joseph Smith's motivations became completely selfish towards the end of his life.
Exactly the same revelations that prophet Muhammed received. You can read many of them in the Hadiths. Many of them are convenient revelations for him.
@Marcus Böetius I’m not mistaken, Joseph mentioned his admiration for Muhammad. Makes sense
@@ic.xc. This has absolutely no relevance to Prophet Muhammad..
@@taylor.rafferty Lots of nonMuslims mention admiration for Muhammad. Michael Hart lists him as top #1 influential person in all of human history for noble reasons.
@@notionSlave but not because they admire his self-grandiosity and polygamy. Joseph admired him for all the wrong reasons. The same way he said Henry VIII of England was a great ruler
Jr. was a pious fraud with a broken moral compass. Adultery sealed his fate.
You are full of kaka, awol You have no clue and your stupid churches are false!
@@djadams7795 no joe smith and his book of mormon was full of kaka
@@mystyk5896 more like you haters are full of kaka
@@djadams7795
"A bishop shall be husband to one wife" - Paul the evangelist
@@djadams7795
No early Christians ever built temples, or taught about a heavenly mother, or taught about eternal human marriage.
Add to that the blasphemy that God the father was once a man who was exalted to Godhood.
The reason cults work so well s they create a community of peer pressue where if you leave you may lose everything. When most people have a choice to face the truth or potentially lose family, friends, lifestyle, etc. it becomes easier for most to perform extreme mental gymnastics to try and validate the BOM. It's really sad and many feel they are in too deep to leave.
Thank you Dan Vogel for leading me into The Restoration !
There was no restoration. Mormonism is a fraud religion
Methinks you are actually too kind in this analysis, Dan. If phrases like "pious deceiver" or "sincere fraud" apply to Joseph Smith, then they also apply to the likes of Antonio Conselheiro, Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc. I purport that what is most elusive and difficult to understand is not what made Smith tick, but rather what makes his followers tick. How and why do otherwise reasonable, pious, sincere people fall prey to the charismatic sale pitch of such amoral narcissists? A genetic proclivity to depend upon, even revere, the "alpha male" of the chimpanzee troop?
Don't forget to include prophet Muhammad.
Mark D Larsen, I think humans have a natural tendency to follow a leader. This is usually a good thing as it helps human groups work together. Unfortunately, a charismatic leader who starts believing his own propaganda can lead his people off a cliff.
This view of Smith seems to make the most sense. Thanks for the video.
Well, he was right about one thing.. All churches are false! Unfortunately, so is his. Joe's time and place was a world of folk magic and mysticism. People were very uninformed and believed all sorts of improbable things about the "unseen world." When magic stopped working for him and got him into trouble, our hero decided to branch off into religion. He was a bright boy. He rightly perceived that the current religious foment represented an opportunity. Lots of religions were invented during that period in the USA.
Isn’t religion actually magic though? Magic comes from the word magi. The three wise men that visited the baby Jesus were actually magi translated as wise men instead of magician.
Think about it Moses turned his stick Into a snake and parted waters. That seems like magick. Monks levitating seems like magick. It’s not just a card trick but actual belief and ritual affecting physical reality.
Lookup Jose dispenza a doctor that does body scans and dna scans etc of people going to his conventions. They mediate and do sessions about belief and some people get healed. You can say it’s BS but they’re legitimately doctors doing scans of people before and after so they have the actual data and dna change. That seems like magic.
I adore this! I am so glad you discuss the "search it out in your mind" revelation-- I was so shocked by that one when I came across it. It could be seen as Joseph Smith giving up the hoax: explaining that God is, more or less, the creative process. But I think it is more how you see it, which is the converse: that Smith saw the creative process AS god-- which I think is actually quite beautiful. ( not to forgive him his more knowing deceptions and later abuses of power, of course )
Thank you, thank you, thank you! For your study of this and sharing it with is on UA-cam. I watched this video multiple times over the course of 6 hours taking notes and researching. I really think this video pulled it all together for me. I could not reconcile the sincere nature of Joseph's works with the blatant evidence of his lies until now. I was raised a devout Mormon my whole life and I don't think you will know how much peace this video finally gave me.
In fact, I have been struggling to know what to believe myself as of late, and I think Joseph was on to something with the universalism.
I hate when other Christians say, "Save the Mormons! Their very souls are in jeopardy!" Because that is the EXACT same limiting belief as the Mormons believe. The first time a heard a Born Again Christian say that all Mormons are damned until we leave our ways and become what they call "true Christians" I knew I would never, ever, go to another church again. After what I've been through I could never run from one religion that limits my beliefs and tells me how to think straight to another one that does the same thing.
Christian community: do you really believe Christ's atonement is limited to those who understand all the secular facts of his life. How naive and hypocritical, not to mention the pure blasphemy to limit who Christ can and will save to your own tiny maniputed understanding.
If you believe this, stop researching all the issues with the Mormon church and take adeeper look into your own brainwashing sect.
Thanks for your comments. Perhaps you are a Unitarian at heart. I don't know. But enjoy the journey.
Your Mormon religion has left you with the root of bitterness. Try reading the Bible. Read the whole book, then you tell me. I live in a mormon area and I am witnessing the young LDS teens committing suicide at a phenominal rate, young children , some pre teen. The Mormon doctrine of attaining Godhood responsible for this? Something is behind this. The #1 killer in Utah is suicide for both sexes and ages 14-44. So you tell me?
The question is, was Christ the monotheist God eternally or is he a man who became God (polytheism)? Truth matters if it's in fact true. Otherwise we might as well just say truth doesn't matter and let's give up in seeking it.
Excellent video. It does present a way to look at this extraordinary enigmatic man, Joseph Smith, in a respectful way, regardless whether one finds him a fraud or a real prophet. I have admired the Prophet while at the same time being incapable of understanding how he was able to accomplish all that he did and the enormity of his legacy.
I wish you would continue..Thank You.
Thank you for this well needed today!!!💞🌹💞
Joseph Smith: American Muhammad.
Dan, please keep the much needed great work.
Quu
Estion: Why did Joseph Smith claim that Israeliets migrated to the Americas in 600 BC? Their decendants did not experience Jesus' life.
Could it be in tecearly 1800s that much less was known about the Americas' history than Middle Eastrn and European history.
wow great video, I saw all your videos but I like how this one goes into the ins and outs of his motives and thoughts.. He was pious fraud, He basically covered His back in writing the book of Mormon.. He justified himself and His "good intentioned" deceptions.
Mormonism has been the State of Utah's #1 export for a long-long time, and the Qurom of 12 and the Qurom of the 70 are never going to stop exploiting the gravy train for them that Mormonism is.
I think he was just like any other person who began to think of himself as something special and it got out of hand as more and more people around him began propping him up in his delusions of grandeur. Charles Taze Russell, Ellen G. White, Mohammed and William Branham all did the same thing. Jim Jones is the most notorious of them all.
He couldn't admit to anyone he was a fraud, not even to himself because he was getting deeper and deeper into doing wrong. You see it all the time today. A movie star thinks they are something special then people start paying attention to them and then they have a reality tv show and think they can make public political opinions even though they nothing about the politics they are trying to talk about. Then the fanboys and fangirls go on like they can't do wrong, all the while they are slipping more and more away from reality.
He didn't believe what he was saying, but people were giving him attention and prestige, that's all he wanted. It is the peoples fault Joseph Smith became what he was. It is a cult of personality, that's all.
Lol you compare Mohammed pbuh to this bunch of lunatics? Google who is the
most influential person in human history, it was the name i mentioned Mohammed pbuh. The only human in history who combined 3 major attributes. A perfect lawmaker, a perfect general and warrior plus religious leader who established a world religion. Nobody before or after him combined this 3 attributes.
F. Moussa, Mormons are brought up from childhood to revere Joseph Smith. Muslims are brought up from childhood to revere Muhammad. You are an outsider, so Mormonism looks ridiculous to you. It is unfortunately very easy to mistake familiarity for truth and unfamiliarity for falsehood. Try and imagine how Islam looks to someone raised as a Mormon, a Seventh Day Adventist, a Hindu, or a Buddhist.
Thoughtful and interesting,...well put.
Joseph Smith was one of the most evil, brilliant, and ruthless people who ever lived. I'm just fascinated by his story.
Fitness-Dammy Your comment as above kind of reminds me of Hitler...
And of Mohammed...
so am I.
you obviously have a poor memory when it comes to history to compare Joseph Smith with Hitler is less than wise. Use wisdom to make your opinions our people will think you are unwise. Compare points when making your point. Got to go.
Fitness-Dammy evil is a stretch.
I would argue that he was an adventurer. He chose a guise of holiness to facilitate his inner desires. If one can’t live the life of say a pirate who buries treasure he could create a way to live the life of the great heroes of the Old Testament. Those were other adventures that Smith may have been familiar.
Smith found the perfect avenue that would give him more power than all the men around him. Part and parcel of this arrangement was that Smith got to play the role of Pious fraud, which must have been intoxicating to a certain extent.
davidnelson: 10000 likes. Not exaggerating.
I have long suspected that JoSmith's primary motivation was the prophetic role itself.
Smith, like his mother and father, and essentially his entire culture, was drenched in the KJV. However little formal schooling Smith had, he was clearly precocious concerning religion and the Bible, highly intelligent and inventive, and even, as suggested by Harold Bloom, an authentic religious genius.
It's safe to assume that Smith, like everybody around him, for no good reason sincerely but simply just accepted the Bible to be the word of a god and that Christianity was fundamentally true. Both from reading the Bible and observing the sectrarian religious world around him, it would be easy for him to conclude at an early age that the Bible was not straightforward, even confusing, and that it was subject to massive and varied interpretation.
Probably listening as a child to his parents read the Bible aloud he was exposed to OT prophets. The precocious Smith recognized that "prophet" was the key to making sense of the Bible and for a correct Christianity. Joseph Smith wanted to be that prophet and he did an admirable job.
How he justified in his own mind what he knew to be subterfuge, fraud and a con, is hard to imagine but I suspect some of it involved convincing himself that thoughts and ideas in his head actually did come from the god of the Bible.
The accumulation of wealth clearly was not Smith's motive. Prophetic knowledge and pronouncement (and power and control) seems more likely. Even if it took "sincere" pious fraud & deception -- including self-deception -- to accomplish god's will
+Shelama Great post. I agree about the role of the Bible then. It was also their blockbuster hit movie. Their celebrities--they just became overly involved.
A ‘golden boy’ child has the belief that I can do no wrong and a delusional self-confidence grows around this, especially if his father wanted a son who hod magical gifting. The result is a lovable con who learns to use his persuasive powers to deceive others and gain what he and his family need. The role of prophet of a new Christian religion with his own sacred books makes total sense for his time. We could call this a well planned form of religious entrepreneurship. This made the best use of his ‘gifts’ to garner the maximum reward in money, sex and power.
shelama:. j smiff was a regular "HOWDY DOODY." Alternatively called/known as "Manchurian Candidate." But, however much the "creations" of others, the creation only "takes" when its fashioning & finishing are INHERENT to the FIRST FORM. Left to our own devices & without Sovereign Grace, we are each/all a hair's breadth from monstrosity. (This neither accuses nor excuses anyone; nor yet exalts nor excludes anyone. We may account it odious, even nihilistic, but we are not our own. Man simply cannot readily comprehend this nor willingly concede it. We have to be permitted to reach a point at which we are downright thankful for it! Even if it means we actually have to forgive those we most viscerally abhor. That scares the hell out of me. Not sure if I will ever be able to comprehend what FORGIVENESS actually is. I do know this: IT IS NOT IN ANY MAN, nor can be taught by ANY MAN. We have to come the way we come.
@@geoattoronto No such thing as a LOVEABLE CON. CON is what we are to learn to discern & despise, break away from & never go back again. One who loves TRUTH will hate WICKEDNESS. But the flesh of man can never "separate the precious from the vile" because the mind of our flesh is UPSIDE-DOWN. This podcast (and all its moderator's work) sublimely iterates the cosmic pickle that is "man." ✌️
Smith had a $1,200 annual allowance from the church. A teacher earned about $400 a year, and a factory worker up to $900 per year. Also, Smith had no mortgage, as his "revelation" told his followers they needed to build a house for him. I wouldn't dismiss financial motives so quickly.
Very thoughtful video. Thanks for sharing
"Enigmatic" is a very kind description
Smith was definitely a sensationalist! Undoubtedly perusing on the cusp of grandiosity!
Joseph Smith believed God sometimes inspires deception, that some sins are according to his will or that occasionally it is necessary to break one commandment in order to fulfil a higher law. I can run with that. Your explanation helps to understand the mind of Joseph Smith.
This has far more implications than just choosing one law over another. Joseph used this rationalization to:
1) Lie to his wife (either to her face or going behind her back) to marry most of his polygamous wives. This also includes marrying women who were already married, which violates one of the 10 commandments (to not lust after another man's wife).
2) He also lied under oath and in the original D&C section 101 which stated that only monogamous marriages exist in the church. This remained in the 1935 D&C until well after Joseph Smith had died.
3) He also used this excuse to add significantly to his various First Vision accounts. His 1832 account simply stated that he had prayed and Jesus appeared and forgave him his sins. This account never mentioned anything about churches being wrong coming from God and the call to become a prophet. In 1938, after a leadership crisis where the 3 witnesses and many of the core followers had left him, he added the other details to the canonized First Vision account to attempt to provide doctrinal reasons for his prophetic calling.
There added many other examples of Joseph's dishonesty (stating anyone would die if they saw the plates, despite the existence of cases of people who weren't part of the 11 witnesses who saw the plates and weren't killed, the changing of the priesthood ordination coming from angels as opposed to Divine Will only, etc.) but these are the major ones.
* Edited for terrible grammar from originally submitting from my phone.
Daric Thank you for your feedback. It certainly reveals a man who used deception to further his kingdom building of a new world religion and i suspect that that is how many great religions are formed. Without throwing out the baby with the bath water, Joseph's creation has produced a lot of good in the world. Devious he may have been but not totally. I liken Joseph Smith to the muslim prophet Muhammad the founder of Islam. Both had to do some terrible things in order to launch their respective religions.
Rob McKay
I agree with a lot of that. Dan Vogel's theory of Joseph being a "pious deceiver" has some merit. However, having known people with mental disorders such as borderline personality disorder (BPD) and narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), they often change the story of personal historical events unknowingly. They change details, exaggerate, rearrange the sequence of events, etc. and they become completely convinced that their modified recollection was how the events actually transpired. Whether Joseph knowingly changed the history or did it subconsciously, I don't think we will ever know for sure. He certainly exhibited signs of NPD. If you search WebMD (or other similar websites) for symptoms and signs of someone with NPD, you'll find that Joseph Smith is a dead ringer for almost all of them.
Howdy Rob. Still doing antiMormon trash talking... uh... ministry for a living, or have you found yourself a real job? Your "some sins" statement is garbage. No sin is acceptable before the Lord, and Joseph Smith never taught that. But you already knew that.
cdowis Hi there, Mormonism is hobby for me. I like to study it in both its good side and its dark side. I see in Joseph Smith a combination of both - good and a bit of the dark side.
.
What do you think about the theories of Joseph Smith's use of datura and other entheogens in inducing mass visions? is this more likely than your hypnosis theories at least with regards to large groups (as was common dieting the Kirtland period? )
I think he was possessed since he was a magician
Before there was much in the way of science and certainly no internet, folklore filled in the gaps. Until fairly recently it was very common to know people in the U.S. who believed men are born with one less rib than women because God created Eve from Adam's rib. These people will look you in the eye and insist this is true. Such tales can be so believable that when. many years ago, I began to study nursing and medicine I made it a point to know for sure if men had one less rib than women. My parents were college educated and non-religious. I do not consider myself generally ignorant yet the belief about the rib was believed by many, perhaps a majority of the kids I went to school with.~~~My point is, I think the folklore was accepted as pseudo-fact by Joseph Smith and he did not know any different. I believe he was extremely creative, charismatic, intelligent and also religious. I think he may not have been able to absolutely tell the difference between fable and fact. He had other people around him who encouraged him in what are basically delusions, who accepted his visions and inspirations. For me the question becomes how much of what he imagined did he actually believe? (I am not Mormon nor against Mormons. I am just a very curious person and I see Joseph Smith as at least partly sincere, if deluded. He was in large part the creation of his time and the backwoods of New York and that general region.)
Thanks for the review of JS jr. and his connection to the “writing “ of the BOM. 😮
Thank you for your research. I have benefited a lot from reading the Book of Mormon, and even though it may not be historical, I have no doubt that it can be consider a source of ispiration for a christian, because at least in my experience, has lead me closer to God.
The world is not made of black and white,....there are colours and shades, and sometimes it is a bit more complex than what we might think, including the life of Joseph Smith Jr.
But I always try to discern with God's help the good part of it.
Thank you again for your research as neutral historian, i really appreciate it.
Zzzzzz
In the video, at 35:10, you show a document that appears to be the same revelation as D&C 8. However, the wording that you show is not the same. Is there an online source for the document you show?
The photo is of the 1835 D&C 9. Whereas in the 1835 edition, D&C 8 is Sec. XXXIV.
I think Alma Chapter 32 in the Book of Mormon can be seen as support for Vogel's views here. Alma basically says that if you desire to believe something, it is OK to start by hoping it is true, and later on you will feel more certain.
Your videos are fascinating pieces of American history, only in America can someone conceive a folklore religion and sell to a hungry public.
Thank you!
I came here to read ridiculous comments from pro-Mormon defenders.
They entertain me as well!
I come to read the pro Bible thumpers. Tons of people quit being a Book of Mormon thumper because they used critical thinking or were skeptical but then they remained a Bible thumped and still they know it all. It’s hilarious. It’s oh polygamy bad but it’s okay in the Old Testament. It’s like don’t read about god forcing judahs sons to know their sister in law in a biblical sense and since they didn’t they were killed by god.
I just love the pro Bible crowd.
Such a great prospective Dan Vogel
If you realize the existence of the devil, and how evil is summoned from sin and the occult, Joseph Smith's life makes perfect sense. "And you shall become like God" is what the devil told Eve.
The same devils that inspired Mohammed found Joseph Smith. The best way to do evil is to twist the good.
Any idea how many Mormons consider him to be a fraud ?
None...
Keisuke42 Many!
Keisuke42 Not true. Check out John's survey. It's more than 3000.
They know deep down it's fiction.
I PITY the WOMAN that MARRIED this DEVIANT WOLFEN SOUL. I know she cried rivers .
You won't hear about that seer stone anymore! They took that story out! My father is a Patriarch and he's never heard that story!
Jeff?
It's now in the gospel topics essays which is on the church's website www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/latter-day-saints-channel/watch/series/now-you-know/did-joseph-smith-use-a-seer-stone-now-you-know?lang=eng
WTF does your father's being a Patriarch have to do with this?
Russell M Nelson has talked about it before lol
cdowis, your ad hominem attack on Dan Vogel tells me that your own logic is flawed. Why don't you address the message rather than attack the messenger?
+ Dan Vogel I've looked at just 2 of your assumptions of God supposedly lying or admonishing someone to lie. But you are mistaken. Here's the proof...
Sarah WAS Abraham's sister (and wife, and niece). A half sister anyway. Here's how that worked out... See Genesis 20: 10-12. Terah was Abraham's father. Haran was Abraham's brother. Sarah was Haran's daughter (Abraham's niece). Haran died and Sarah was taken by Terah as his daughter (Abraham's half-sister). Abraham & Sarah were then married and thus his wife.
The 2nd issue was the supposition that God lied when he told Adam & Eve "In the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die". (Genesis 3: 4-5)
Actually Lucifer told a half truth. when he said "thou shalt not surely die" (a lie) ...thou shalt be as the gods, knowing good from evil (absolutely true!).
Here are the proofs... "God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil". (Genesis 3:22).
Genesis 5:5 states Adam lived 930 years and died.
2 Peter 3:8 Says 1 day to God is a 1,000 years to man.
BTW: Abraham 3:4 (LDS Scripture, POGP) backs this up.
+Rick Hart The point is that Abraham only told a half truth knowing that if he told Pharaoh Sarah was his wife his life would be in danger. This fact is widely acknowledged. Read just about any commentary. Joseph Smith changed this in the Book of Abraham by having God tell Abraham to tell Sarah to say she is his sister (Abra. 2:22-24).
Dan Vogel Technically it wasn't a lie but I agree it was deceptive.
What about the 2nd part of my argument... that God did not lie to Adam?
We have a "type" here to understand and discern how our adversary works. That is, he mingles truth and error. A liar is easy to spot and dismiss but one who hides behind a measure of truth and mingles lies with it, is the most to be feared. See if this is not the case and whether or not God lied.
God to Adam...
And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: *for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.*
(Genesis 2:16-17)
Lucifer told Adam & Eve a half truth...
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
And the serpent said unto the woman, *Ye shall not surely die:*
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and *ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.*
(Genesis 3:2-5)
Here are the results of their actions...
And the Lord God said, *Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:* and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
(Genesis 3:22).
Is this not as God promised?
And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. (Genesis 5:5)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(2 Peter 3:8)
Now, enter Joseph Smith. In The Pearl of Great Price, a revealed book of scripture given through the prophet, it states (the Lord speaking to Abraham)...
And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that *one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest.* This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob.
(Abraham 3:4)
So three questions arise out of this information.
1) Didn't Adam & Eve's condition turn out to be exactly as God said it would?
2) Isn't the adversary's method of deception mingling truth with error?
3) And the most important question. How did Joseph Smith know the correct reckoning of Gods time with ours?
Don't mean to go off on a tangent here, but this does show the problems Joseph Smith presents to the status quo.
4) What are we to make of the following...
Genesis 3…
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, *the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:* and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Orthodox Christianity will no doubt rationalize this away, however Christ himself states very clearly...
John 10…
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, *Ye are gods?*
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Joseph Smith's revelation in the Doctrines & Covenants 76 sheds further light upon these scriptures & gives a third witness of our potential...
D&C 76:
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory.
57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
58 Wherefore, as it is written, *they are gods*, even the sons of God-
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.
+Rick Hart What? No one wants to comment on the things Joseph Smith, with his extraordinary 1 whole year of education got right? He's got 2 out of 2 things RIGHT and so far batting 100%. I've got more, want to hear it?
It is an easy answer to assert that Smith integrated Nephi’s murder of Laban in the book as a justification and rationale for Smith’s alleged immoral acts for religious reasons. But there is a big problem with this reasoning. Nephi was deceived by a lying spirit when he murdered Laban for religious gain. The tragic Nephite history is essentially a hidden cautionary tale of the harm and tragedy that befalls as a result of justifying immoral acts for religious or other reasons.
I call it the "law of the greater good." However, in most cases, I believe polygamy is wrong. And sex with a minor is punishable by law. It becomes a game of conflicting Christian Gods. Your God says you can have 30 wives, well, my God, who is supported by the US government says you need to stand trial.
The same U.S. government that supports tyranny when it benefits some rich billionaires or the same U.S. government that over throws democracies when they don’t help some rich Americans. Ya thank god for a moral and ethical U.S. federal government. Thank god we live in a world without never ending war and politicians that don’t lie.
Tristeen
I can tell you don’t do deep deep deep thinking if you believe the U.S. government is good. Thomas Jefferson warned about private central banks. For over a century the privately owned federal reserve has paid a 6%dividend to Wall Street.
Printing money out of thin air is theft and causes inflation or stealing purchasing power from others. Theft should not be promoted by Christian’s yet it is globally.
I’m happy for you though you really think the U.S. government cares about you and morality. They killed 500,000 kids in Iraq and said it was an acceptable sacrifice. It almost made me think wow. It’s like the Phoenicians doing child saacrifices when the U.S. said it was an acceptable sacrifice. Like Us politicians also do vicarious child sacrifice in Cali at the grove in front of a large owl. Super occultish. The U.S. dollar also has occult symbols on it. Have you looked into that?
Tristeen
Also how the freak can you say oh the government says 30 wives isn’t moral. The government is not there to define absolute morality.
Gay marriage for instance always should have been legal but wasn’t cause the U.S. inherited England laws. But seriously if you’re going to have gay marriage you should let any consenting adult marry whoever the heck the want. If one woman marries ten guys who are you to say that’s wrong and why would you care or want to control them? Even minors at 16 legally get married in the U.S. with arranged marriages especially as we keep bringing in foreigners. You do realize like hundreds of millions of Muslims practice polygamy. Well idk the amount but if there’s a billion or two Muslims then theres obviously way fewer that practice polygamy cause the ones I met said they can marry four but need to support them or be well off first. But a guy from Saudi said he had 20 moms or something. I can’t remember maybe it was 20 siblings but I thought it was more than four moms.
very interesting, thanks for posting the vid!
I believe he believed what he believed. I just don't believe what he believed....
Brilliant!! Utterly compelling
Boy i tell you that boy Joseph Smith was a real piece of work. I wished he would have come to my door step to witness Mormonism. Ill would have liked to set him straight by the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
Prove you have the true gospel or you're just as much of a fraud as he was.
@@stephenjackson7797 “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!”
Galatians 1:6-8
So if he was a fraud, in a roundabout way, makes him a valid prophet in a loose definition of the word? 🤣 You cant deny the genius of Joseph Smith, deceiver or not.
+dan vogel. I like your analysis but I think you are way to kind to him. I've read a Marvelous work and wonder and BoM. Ive read the quran and parts of the hadith. It is striking how simililar those two meglomaniacs were. Especially how they used revelation from "god" to further their own ends. Especially with women. Though M was much more violent and hateful. If I were to choose between the two I'd choose Smith. His followers managed at least to build a functional prosperous society, while muslims have been reeking havoc for ages.
F. Moussa 1. I am not american and I do not support their agression in the middle east, in fact I oppose it. 2. The wealth of the oil states in the mid east came through coopereration with America and the west. The demand for oil came from the west. The technology and the initial investments came from the west. The brains to run the business comes from the west. I have a friend that works in the oil industry in SA. He tells me that most of the intelligensia still comes from the west. If they were to leave the oil industry would collaps. 3. The oil riches is protected by the US navy permenantly stationed in the gulf. Without it your muslim brothers in Iran would march right in devestate it. So tell me again how anything with the rescent economical develoment in the mid east is related to Islam?! If it weren't for America Arabia would be a nation of bedoin goat hearders... Truth remains, Mohammed was a violent villian and his followers have followed suit.
“No one will tell you. UA-cam: Joseph Smith HORROR mansion”
in deuteronomy in the old testament there is the test of the prophets chapter 18 verses 21-22 it states in my words cause i don't have a bible handy if a man claims to be a prophet and just one of his prophecies or revelations does not come true then he is not speaking the words of god and should be dissed all the way around. simple enough? in words mormons can understand he was a false prophet he did not pass the test and the excuse that he was a man and men make mistakes does not work when you are supposedly speaking for god
You are aware that there are false prophesies in the bible right. I'm going to assume you are ignorant of this fact. Since I only need one example of a false prophesy in the bible, I will use the one that cannot be disproven. Jonah 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. Notice there is no, unless you repent, in this verse and as we know the people of Nineveh repented and were saved. You could argue the point, but, you would have to explain the first verse in chapter 4. But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry. Jonah 100% expected Nineveh to be overthrown, but when it was not he was angry.
not a false prophecy but not gods words. if a man speaks for god after he has been told by god then he is speaking for the lord right? now if a man says he is speaking for god and these things he says do not happen then he is not speaking for god but trying to do his own thing like smith was doing,the description at the beginning of the chapter is enough to answer that question it is not a false prophecy god changed his mind the beginning of the chapter says the fall of nineveh averted by penitence.this is no false prophecy if the people didn't repent then it would have been over thrown then jonah gets pissed because nothing happened and then comes the gourd from god and his pity for the gourd shows him why god had pity on the people of the town in 10 minutes i read and understand the story of jonah it is simple enough to understand that showing pity is a good thing when it is deserved but it isn't about false prophecy at all it is about having pity that is why the gourd comes into play at the end of it
Didn't most prophets fall short of their goal? They were flawed individuals who got over that fact and did something great! Nobody's perfect.....that was the lesson there. They were also punished for their deeds. Great people are often fighting the same demons that we are and often are telling their story when they preach! We just want to follow someone that is perfect so that they can take on all of our sins!
it has nothing to do with falling short of their goals. and everything to do with prophecy and revelation, and the truth in them, it matters what is said in the name of god since direct revelation is what is claimed to be the words of god not the words of a man , smiths own mother wrote that smith was telling these stories of the ancient inhabitants of the land almost as soon as he was old enough to talk. it didn't come from god it came from his imagination. and the proof of that is in the front pages of the book of mormon in the preface in the first paragraph where smith and the church claims the descendants of lamenites are the american indians. when this was said there was no such thing as proof through dna but they could not foresee the technology of today. or the ways to follow a persons ancestry by the blood in their veins. if god had anything at all to do with the book of mormon or any of the other books put out by the church they never would have made such a false claim. it would have said they are all dead not they are the american indians. there is also no locations for any of what is written in the book of mormon nothing archaeological to prove any of what is written ever happened no great battlefields nothing. when battles are spoken of in the bible if the location is known there are artifacts all over the place pieces of the metals used, smith said in the bom that they were using steel when it was the bronze age there is nothing to prove this there isn't even iron. the american indians were a stone age people until the american west brought iron and steel technologies to the west. then there is the egyptian funerary scrolls found in the chest of the mummy he bought, if it were what he said it was, why would an egyptian mummy have a hebrew scroll in his chest?that last question alone proves he knew nothing of what he was talking about
Well There was no rest of the bible back then. It was just the jewish torah, if we truly lived by that, we wouldn't have much of the Old Testament nor would we have much of the bible. The bible could've had a lot more books added to it, there were also many lost parts of the bible!
Joseph Smith is a very grey character. He was definitely a liar. The version of him given to most mormon children is very wrong. But he however did have some real occult background (which i don't view as necessarily bad) but that's the real way he claimed to be a prophet. He knew a lot about folk magic. And his involvement with masonic groups tops off some of the rituals he used. One thing remains true. He was a deceiver to the public. He did have some small psychic like abilities. And he knew a lot about masonic rituals. And the way they try to depict him in most modern videos to modern Mormons is very cherry picked and sugar coated. This is a good essay. I used to think he was a huge liar for a while. But after going even deeper into it I think Smith genuinely believed in what he was doing. He just wasn't exactly who he seemed to be to the public. He was pragmatic in furthering what he believed to be true. However what he did in the process was in a lot of ways monstrous. His burning of the printing press against him. And him marrying other woman's wives while denying it. You can't say to me he wasn't a liar. When most mormon children grow up they expect a prophet to never lie and to always lead them the right way. But when they find out that he did decieve quite a few people and that a lot of his revelations were possibly not as concrete like how his book of Abraham translation was actually an Egyptian book of breathings script. Joseph Smith was definitely "trippin'". Following a church that started with that kind of following shouldn't be trusted that's for sure.
Your amazing Dan! Thank You
😂😂😂
God sums it up pretty simply about false prophets like Smith: "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christand *_no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of lighttherefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;_* whose end shall be according to their works." (2Cor 11:13-15)
The Buy-bull is just as much malarkey as the Book of Mormon. Grow up.
I don't know if he was such a complicated or unique phenomenon. The formation of these groups happens all the time, all over the world. He was just particularly slick, so his cult happened to be one that lasted. (Most of them just fade out of existence or end in disaster.) It seems to help to have a foundational book--Scientology is one of the most notable examples of a group that managed to last in America after Smith, thanks in part to 'Dianetics'.
Happiness - is the object of our existance and will be the end thereof; if we pursue the path that leads to it;and this path is virtue, uprightness, fathfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God. Joseph Smith Jun
Yes, so the letter goes on---so secretly marry me and I'll be happy. And don't tell my wife.
I don't think this essay's purpose in any way defends Joseph Smith, but merely seeks to explain his psyche in a fuller way than previously done. It probably is of no consequence to anyone except those who have felt deceived by his work, and wish to understand the particulars.
I still find there is more (and less) to the story re the killing of Laban for the plates. Primarily, that this murder is gratuitous since it would have been a simple matter for God to impose a deeper drunken stupor upon Laban in order that his armour, unsullied by copious amounts of blood, be stolen without the ensuing decapitation. There are a great many ways that God could have facilitated getting the plates without decapitation.
Therefore, and not to put too fine a point upon it, Smith had an adolescent boy's flair and taste for both drama and blood, and felt this story would play well, at least to the immature mind. The killing underscores mankind's overarching need for these all important records. I doubt Smith's need to justify deception was as great as the author depicts. I believe he was a personality that from early childhood learned to deceive and enjoy the results. Yes, the essay does bring to the fore some need to justify his own deception, but again, I doubt he was all that plagued with the process and by 1828 on, but rather delighted in his own growing successes. Just one of those weird socioopathic geniuses you meet from time to time. If he attempted to justify his deceptions through scripture, it was for the edification of others, and certainly not for himself. I enjoyed the analysis.
Sarah Pratt Very good analysis Sarah.
Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni
by Grant H. Palmer
Published in John Whitmer Historical Journal 34 (Spring/Summer 2014): 50-57.
mormonthink.com/grant11.htm
The first time I read the BoM the Laban story made no sense for a variety of reasons. God actually TOLD Nephi to murder a man in cold blood? Really? That contradicts everything that Jesus says about his father. Then there’s the whole “I put on Laban’s armor and went to Zoraida and demanded him to give me the plates using Laban’s voice and he somehow thought that I was really Laban.” story is ludicrous. There would’ve been buckets of blood everywhere and on Laban’s clothes. Even if Laban had been stripped before the murder there would’ve been blood spattered on Nephi, and there were no convenient public bathrooms nearby to go clean up before going to Laban’s house.
I hate autocorrect! Zoraida should be Zoram.
I'm hoping Dan is still around to respond to my post.
Hey, Dan, tell us about the eight witnesses and the plates, and please please please give us your documented references. We have spoken several times on this, but let's try it again before the entire world.
You should make this comment on my video dealing with the Book of Mormon witnesses, but be more specific about what you disagree with.
Dan Vogel
Yeah, I was being lazy.
I have already gone over your stuff years ago, and that means that I have to *listen* to your video, and write it down. Better yet, if you have a link to a text of your discussion of the eight witnesses, please give it to me.
Dan Vogel
1. While you are at it, perhaps you can tell us about one of your sources, Stephen Burnett and his statement on how Martin Harris denied his testimony.
Tell us about his relationship with Joseph Smith and the church.
Since this was supposedly to be a public statgement by Harris, give us some supporting witnesses. Surely such an astonishing statement, MADE IN PUBLIC, would be all over the church, many witnesses to his statement.
Or does Burnett, the bitter former member of the church, stand alone in his assertion.
And tell us how you handled this source and statement in your conclusions. It goes to your agenda and, in my opinion, lack of objectivity and judgement.
2. Tell us about your source selection on the eight witnesses to the plates. I remember thaat beautiful, fanciful story that you related, so give us your sources. How does it fit the first hand account of the witnesses themselves where they hefted the plates, examined the individual pages and view the characters on the plates. How did you incorporate that into your story?
Again, we are talking about source control, objectivity, the use of first hand vs second and third hand sources. The use of magical thinking in attempting to fill in the gaps of your explanation of what the witnesses saw and did not see.
I know that Joseph Smith was a true and living prophet of the Lord Jesus Christ. I've come to know and love Jesus Christ through reading the book of mormon. I truly hope you rid your anger and hatred and can live a better life.
What makes you think I'm angry or have hatred? Do you think that about your own missionaries who go around telling people they belong to false churches? I feel that I have lived a good life.
How do you know?
nothing that young Smith ever "found" was presented - the "norm" was all would be taken by spirits etc - Smith faced ridicule, arrest and being run off - Smith ran off with Emma Hale only to return to her Dad as a penniless Seer - and soon quit the hard farm work Mr Hale offered - the B of M is entirely an attempt to placate Hale and restore Smith's rep as a "Seer" to the locals- Smith was smart enough to pretend he had tried and failed to find the plates for 3 years... but it was Emma that made the 4th try work - "yes Mr Hale... If I had not run off with your daughter the plates would never be seen. God wanted her to elope with a Seer " [ God wanted Smith to Elope with a LOT of women ] - obv Hale told him to get lost, and the Penniless Seer now turned to Martin Harris for the living expenses and obv a new scam - all you have to do is write a book with a Copyright - the plates would never be shown as was the norm- so Smith wrote a Copyrighted book and went to sell it in Canada to pay back Mr Harris for the months spent living of him [ as was the norm ]- the book didn't sell - Mrs Harris was stirring up trouble and no gold was produced- the B of M is such an obv fraud - right from the orig title page
In using sleight of hand, Smith is not unusual at all in comparison with shamanic traditions everywhere since forever. Further, his use of seer stones as prompts to provoke what Jung called "active imagining" is nothing out of the ordinary. And the idea of the fall being a necessary part of the plan, though perhaps novel in the stale Christian context, is not novel from a comparative perspective. Most cultures have some sort of original transgression and expulsion from paradise. The way it fits into their overall mythological storyline and rituals necessarily implies that such fall is just a necessary part of the process of becoming conscious, or individuating, and also, on another level, of how we obtain our food and civilize ourselves. There must be a duality of subject and object to experience consciousness. But I suppose if people don't see that the story of the fall, more than anything else, is all about becoming conscious in the first place, this won't register. The Mormon stuff seriously needs to be fitted better into a comparative context. I highly recommend Michael Witzel, "The Origins of the World's Mythologies". And once one sees how foundational is the trickster archetype to the majority of cultures since before out-of-Africa, and how the trickster is associated both with the fall, descent and mischief on one hand and with innovation, progress, culture, fire, music, etc on the other hand, it becomes obvious that cultures around the world had an understanding of the seeming paradox that the fall--ostensibly a bad thing--is also a vital part of our becoming. In other terms, once father sky has been ripped apart from earth mother, pillars/columns/trees must be erected to maintain them apart. Otherwise--without this duality--there is no room for the parents' offspring to develop. All over Mesoamerica, for instance, one can see the iconography of the broken tree (consequence of the transgression in paradise, of taking illicitly from the tree). Out of the broken tree emerge all of life's riches. In the Aztec version, the trickster Tezcatlipoca seduced the goddess Xochiquetzal and they did take from the forbidden tree in the paradise of Tamoanchan. They were kicked out of Tamoanchan and down to earth, to participate in the cycles of death and rebirth between earth and underworld. The result of their illicit union was a bastard son, Itztlacoliuhqui-Cinteotl, personification of maize/corn. The acknowledgment of the necessity of the fall is loud and clear.
So anyway, not much unusual about Smith.
Look at Smith as a treasure seeker, he had to believe on some level that he could find treasure, else, if a complete scam, it was one doom to fail quickly, leaving you sitting next to a big hole with a bunch of angry men with shovels. The fact that when, as you describe, there briefly appeared to be a treasure he could not return to his hat, betray a man who, like a moth was drawn to a flame but know enough to fear it heat. Smith was a man testing his faith in his god and himself. He was a multi-dimensional character, smart and self-serving seeing what he could get away with, and finding that god did not strike him dead for his blasphemy presumed the god must be endorsing them, he undoubtedly felt that he was special and the chosen of god, why else would god let him get away with things.
The question of why others followed him is the more important one and why they continue to do so today in the face to some much contrary evidence, The leaders undoubtedly believe they too are chosen by virtue of the fact they are leaders and thus must protect their position as the chosen ones of god, much as Smith rationalize his world. The lessons here are in the power of self-deception, our ability to shape our understanding of the world in a way that justifies our position in it.
Smith was a very human man no different from you or I, his lies just became bigger.
Does anyone know when Smith first identified himself as a prophet
Try, 2 Nephi 3:14-15, dictated by Joseph Smith in June 1829.
I think it's pretty clear that the motive started with money but by 1831 he wanted power and polygamy with the invention of the priesthood and changing John the Baptist as the spirit of eljiah fulfillment to himself in his translation of the Bible. His change of the Godhead occured after the Lectures of faith in 1835 perhaps for another motive. The motive is probably best found in the changes he made to the Bible and the reasoning why.
Every uncorrected error and unrepented sin flows on until the end of time. (Paraphrased from CS Lewis)
Quitting the Mormon Church (Unabridged)
I have been thinking of quitting the Mormon Church. Yes, if I can, I am going to get even with that church. As soon as I can find another church that teaches about the Gathering of the House of Israel; the return of the Ten Tribes and their mission; the return of the Jews to Palestine and why, and how they are going to build the temple; the building of temples and what to do with them; the mission of Elias, the prophet, as predicted by Malachi; the method for the salvation of the people that died at the time of Noah in the flood; the origin of the American Indian; the complete explanation of why Jesus of Nazareth had to have a mortal mother but not a mortal father; the explanation of the three degrees of glory (three heavens) as mentioned by Paul; the complete explanation of why Elias and Moses did not die but had to be translated (since they both lived before the resurrection was introduced by Christ); the restoration of the gospel by modern revelation as promised by Peter and Paul and Jesus himself; the belief in eternal marriage and the family, and the knowledge and the place to seal for eternity; that teaches abstinence from all harmful drugs and foods; and that sells the best fire insurance policy on earth, for the last days, for only a tenth of my income.
Yes sir, as soon as I can find another church that teaches all that, or even half as much, I will say good-bye to this Mormon Church. The church that I am looking for must also be able to motivate 90,000+ youth, and adults, for the first, second or third time, to leave their homes for two years at their own expense and go to far-away places to teach and preach without salary. It must be able to call, on a frosty day, some 5 or 6 thousand professors, students, lawyers, doctors, judges, policemen, businessmen, housewives and children to go and pick apples at 6 am. It must be able to call meetings and get the attention for two hours of more than 300,000 men. Yes, it must also teach and show why salvation is assured for children who die before eight years of age.
Mr. Editor, could you help me find a church that teaches all that and more than hundreds of other doctrines and principles, which I have no room to mention here, and which brings solace and comfort to the soul; peace, hope, and salvation to mankind, and above all, that answers the key questions that all the great philosophers have asked; questions and answers that explain the meaning of life, the purpose of death, suffering and pain; the absolute need for a Redeemer and the marvelous plan conceived by our Father and executed by Jesus Christ the Savior? Yes, as soon as I find another church that teaches that, and also that has the organization and the powers to make that teaching effective, I am going to quit the Mormon Church.
For I should not tolerate that “they” should change a few words in the Book of Mormon - even if those changes simply improve the grammar and the syntax of the verses - for, after all, don’t you think the Divine Church should employ angels as bookmakers, and clerks, to do all the chores on earth? Don’t you think, Mr. Editor that the Divine Church should also have prophets that don’t get sick and don’t get old and die, and certainly, that don’t make a goof here and there. No, sir! A Divine Church should be so divine that only perfect people should belong to it, and only perfect people should run it.
As a matter of fact, the Church should be so perfect that it should not even be here on earth!
So, I repeat, if any one of the kind readers of this imperfect letter knows about another church that teaches and does as much for mankind as the Mormon Church, please let me know. And please do it soon, because my turn to go to the cannery is coming up. Also, “they” want my last son (the fifth one) to go away for two years and again, I have to pay for all that. And I also know that they expect me to go to the farm to prune trees, and I have heard that our ward is going to be divided again, and it is our side that must build the new chapel. And also, someone the other day had the gall of suggesting that my wife and I get ready to go on a second mission, and when you come back, they said, you can volunteer as a temple worker. Boy, these Mormons don’t leave you alone for a minute. And what do I get for all that, I asked? “Well,” they said, “for one, you can look forward to a funeral service at no charge!”… Do you think you can help me to find another church?
Thomas D. Clark
June Arvin Loza, I agree that the Mormon Church has many good people and does many good things. However, there are thousands of denominations of Christianity in the world. Pretty much all of them boast of their good works and of the wonderful changes they bring to the lives of their members. There are many non-Christian religions, as well: Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc. These also often boast about the good they do in the world and the joy they bring to the lives of their followers. If the Mormon Church is really God''s one and only church, and other religions are not, that should be obvious. And yet it isn't. You mention the sacrifices Mormon families make to send their children on missions. Catholic families also sacrifice their children to become priests, monks, and nuns, living lives of perpetual poverty and service. Many denominations do missionary work, including the Seventh Day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Muslims require that everyone capable of doing so undergo a difficult trip to Mecca, the hajj. The number of people undertaking the hajj each year is in the neighborhood of two million.
You mention the teaching of abstinence from harmful drugs and foods. The Seventh Day Adventists advocate a healthy diet and discourage consumption of alcohol, tobacco, illegal drugs, and coffee. The Muslims discourage alcohol. Many other religions encourage healthy habits, including the Hindus.
You complain that critics expect the Book of Mormon to be perfect. OK, but there are problems that crop up from that. If the Book of Mormon can be wrong, how can we tell if any of it is true? If the Book of Mormon is demonstrably wrong in small things that we can check, how much can we rely on it for the big things that are harder to check? And of course, it's not just the Book of Mormon. The Bible has a huge number of problems, ranging from minor contradictions to God ordering genocide and excusing slavery. The atonement itself is morally quite problematic. If someone has repented and God wants to forgive him, why can't he just forgive him? Why is the torture and death of an innocent person required? (Humans are capable of forgiving someone who has harmed them without requiring a blood sacrifice. But somehow God can't do that.) Have you ever read the entire Bible, from the first page of Genesis to the last page of Revelation?
If God exists and loves us, why would he not make it clear to everyone who he is and what he wants us to do? Why would God leave mankind to apostasy for centuries without doing anything about it? Why would God leave millions of people without any knowledge of him at all for thousands of years, as with the Chinese? Call it the problem of divine hiddenness. Or maybe just that for someone who is frequently described as almighty, God seems like quite an underachiever.
@@exmormonroverpaula2319 Apostasy of the Early Christian Church
changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant, Isa. 24:5.
this people draw near me with their mouth, Isa. 29:13.
darkness shall cover the earth, Isa. 60:2.
a famine … of hearing the words of the Lord, Amos 8:11.
his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, Matt. 13:25.
saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many, Matt. 24:5.
shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, Matt. 24:24.
his disciples went back, and walked no more with him, John 6:66.
shall grievous wolves enter in among you, Acts 20:29.
there be divisions among you, 1 Cor. 11:18.
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him, Gal. 1:6.
who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey, Gal. 3:1.
shall not come, except there come a falling away first, 2 Thes. 2:3.
some having swerved have turned aside, 1 Tim. 1:6.
giving heed to seducing spirits, 1 Tim. 4:1.
all they which are in Asia be turned away from me, 2 Tim. 1:15.
Who concerning the truth have erred, 2 Tim. 2:18.
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power, 2 Tim. 3:5.
turn away their ears from the truth … unto fables, 2 Tim. 4:4.
profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, Titus 1:16.
From whence come wars and fightings among you, James 4:1.
false prophets also among the people, 2 Pet. 2:1.
being led away with the error of the wicked, 2 Pet. 3:17.
now are there many antichrists, 1 Jn. 2:18.
many false prophets are gone out into the world, 1 Jn. 4:1.
certain men crept in … denying the only Lord God, Jude 1:4.
which say they are apostles, and are not, Rev. 2:2.
thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, Rev. 3:16.
to make war with the saints, Rev. 13:7.
formation of that great and abominable church, 1 Ne. 13:26.
the Gentiles … have stumbled, 2 Ne. 26:20.
Gentiles … will be drunken with iniquity, 2 Ne. 27:1.
transfigured the holy word of God, Morm. 8:33.
strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant, D&C 1:15.
Satan … soweth the tares, D&C 86:3.
darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, D&C 112:23.
they were all wrong; … their hearts are far from me, JS-H 1:19.
See also Matt. 24:11; Rom. 11:21; 1 Cor. 1:11; 3:3; Col. 2:22; 1 Tim. 1:19; Titus 1:10; 2 Pet. 2:22; 3 Jn. 1:9; Rev. 2:5; 1 Ne. 11:34.
@@exmormonroverpaula2319 Isaiah 55: 8-9
8 ¶ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
@@exmormonroverpaula2319 How about prophet and apostles Sir?, how about priesthood? Elijah's mission, purpose of temple, the lost books; The so-called lost books of the Bible are those documents that are mentioned in the Bible in such a way that it is evident they were considered authentic and valuable but that are not found in the Bible today. Sometimes called missing scripture, they consist of at least the following: book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14); book of Jasher (Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18); book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:41); book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29:29); book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29:29; 2 Chr. 9:29); prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9:29); visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9:29; 12:15; 13:22); book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12:15); book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20:34); sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33:19); an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9); possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3); an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4:16); and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1:14). To these rather clear references to inspired writings other than our current Bible may be added another list that has allusions to writings that may or may not be contained within our present text but may perhaps be known by a different title; for example, the book of the covenant (Ex. 24:7), which may or may not be included in the current book of Exodus; the manner of the kingdom, written by Samuel (1 Sam. 10:25); the rest of the acts of Uzziah written by Isaiah (2 Chr. 26:22).
The foregoing items attest to the fact that our present Bible does not contain all of the word of the Lord that He gave to His people in former times and remind us that the Bible, in its present form, is rather incomplete.
Matthew’s reference to a prophecy that Jesus would be a Nazarene (2:23) is interesting when it is considered that our present Old Testament seems to have no statement as such. There is a possibility, however, that Matthew alluded to Isa. 11:1, which prophesies of the Messiah as a Branch from the root of Jesse, the father of David. The Hebrew word for branch in this case is netzer, the source word of Nazarene and Nazareth. Additional references to the Branch as the Savior and Messiah are found in Jer. 23:5; 33:15; Zech. 3:8; 6:12; these use a synonymous Hebrew word for branch, tzemakh.
The Book of Mormon makes reference to writings of Old Testament times and connection that are not found in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or in any other known source. These writings are of Zenock, Zenos, and Neum (1 Ne. 19:10; Alma 33:3-17). An extensive prophecy by Joseph in Egypt (which is not in the Bible) is also apparent from 2 Ne. 3:4-22, and a prophecy of Jacob (not found in the Bible) is given in Alma 46:24-26. These writings were evidently contained on the plates of brass spoken of in the Book of Mormon (1 Ne. 5:10-13).
@@exmormonroverpaula2319 Ever since I didn't see mormon vloggers attacking others people's beliefs. Why attacking Mormonism? What did the Church did you? Or to them?
Is that what they learned from their church? Is that what their church teaching? Not to respect other's people's beliefs?
I don't get it, why always attacking Mormonism.
He sounds like a psychedelic astranaut. The story may not be true as he stated it, but it sure caused an organization to rise. No princess lives in the Disney castle, but kids and adult alike travel around the world and spend $$$ to prentend one does.
George Morris Smith
1832- 1890
Related?
to go down in history....that is all
Money…….. Power over women. …And praise of men…….Were his motives. It was found in his pocket ,this is absolutely the most blasphemous man that ever lived
the essential teachings of Mormonism are really great! It uplifts people and prepares them for the things that are not good. I am happy that I was raised Mormon and taught to think for myself however, I realized that I can find the truth for myself and did not need the crutch of the church anymore. I will instill these principles in my children and I am living my truth that I found through Mormonism! Joseph Smith was just a man who was inspired to teach others his truth but got caught up in his abilities to persuade people to follow him.........he became of the world because he was of the world. that does not mean that his initial message was not good. Lets take the good from people and stop trying to deny what they were placed here to do. I do not believe in the Doctrine and Covenants nor the Pearl of Great Price and have never read them because I knew. (inspired by God, the universal higher self) that they were not true.........he wrote those when he was starting to believe his own hype and wanted the life of the world.
Bull. It's full of murder. It's a horrible book.
I am not a professional counselor but have experiance and knoweldege on psycopath behaviour. I have read a lot and could say his way of being includes narcisism, sociopathy, psychopathy, machiavellianism.
Since I found out all that stuff that you mention in your video, I have been looking for answers towards all his deeds...
Money, sex and power as simple as that!
Oh the sh*t is deep here 😂
If he was about today his slogan would be Make America Great Again
By the way, the thing you put as "admitting" to his "treasure seeking" was just a letter saying he was employed by a man that wanted to mine for silver....Not sure what your talking about there...
The church, on its website, says he used the same seer stone for his treasure seeking and for sticking in his hat to create the BoM. So take up your gripes with them.
At least you make your own video's, though i do not see you speaking to anyone. I am the only one who can answer those question's, as i figured out the puzzle. To bad you don't talk to anyone.
I have no idea what you are trying to say. Grammar is taught in the fifth grade, BTW.
Dan Vogels explanation is less believable than the explanation of the Church Jesus Christ LDS.
An interesting guy for sure.
Well you've taken into account all the variables of Joseph Smith's actions and personalities except one... What if everything he claimed to have happened, actually did? What if he actually did have and hold a stack of golden plates? What if he did actually converse with heavenly beings?
Ridiculous? Perhaps, but not to be dismissed, out-of-hand without some consideration.. Remember, there were others, who both claimed to have both seen and handled the gold plates. Their names are found in the preface of the Book of Mormon. While some of them admittedly left the Church, none of them ever recanted their claim concerning the gold plates.
So if the whole thing is one big hoax, it involves others besides Joseph.
The crux of the complaints against Joseph Smith however, are overshadowed by the Book of Mormon, which speaks for itself. I dare anyone to read it and find anything in it, emphatically wrong, non-biblical or contradictory in any way, to Christian theology.
Hi James. Uh, are we talking about the original 1830 edition? Cause on page 200 of the 1830 edition it says:
"And now Limhi was again filled with joy, on learning from the mouth of Ammon that
king Benjamin
had a gift from God, whereby he could interpret such engravings;"
A similar mistake is made in the modern Ether 4.
The modern version changes "king Benjamin" to Mosiah- on account of king Benjamin dying earlier.
So that's a big mistake.
Also, have you heard of James Strang? Some of my ancestors followed him. His book was translated from plates unearthed in America as well. He also has witnesses... So what's the deal?
It's almost like someone can witness for something because they believe... not because it's true.
@@bobbilderson8556 Yes, "Strangites" Upon the death of Joseph Smith (1844) there was a brief power struggle. James Strang and some of his followers, were among them. According to Wikipedia, there remains about 130 active members throughout the entire United States.
With a grand-total of 130 folks, I'd say that makes them nearly extinct.
Either way, Strangites embraced the Book of Mormon. as well as their own stuff.
So is it possible for folks to come together to support a falsehood? Sure.
The possibility of conspiracy however, doesn't prove there was one. In fact all of the official witnesses to the Book of Mormon, had serious grievances with Joseph Smith and the LDS Church. These led to excommunications but none recanted their original testimonies (no matter what you may have read.)
BTW, there are many current offshoots of the LDS Church. More than a dozen right now and perhaps more than 100 historically. Strangites were one of them.
@@bobbilderson8556 So what, a mistake? So I suppose the Bible has zero errors of any kind?
Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon were written by men and translated by men and both contain errors and inconsistencies. No big deal. The preface to the Book of Mormon even admits the possibility of errors.
@@jamesbaldwin7676 I'm not advocating either for or against the Church. I'm just seeing what your worldview entails.
What condition would have to be met for you to change your mind and leave the Church? If you cannot even think of one, then you're not actually considering that you might be wrong.
Which is fine in many cases. People believe in wrong things every day. However, if you are to even consider the possibility that you're wrong, then you shouldn't try to reason with others.
It's like playing a chess game with no pieces. You aren't trying to find truth, you're just trying to vent.
Which, that's fine. You can vent here if you'd like.
To illustrate this point further: You know that all kinds of people cling to absurd positions when they are sufficiently motivated. You need to be sure you're not doing this as well.
For example: in the Heaven's Gate cult, their two leaders told them they would board a spacecraft with their physical bodies. However, when one of the two leaders died from cancer, instead of disbelieving, the trial of their faith made them believe more strongly.
They decided that in order to board the UFO to reach the next level, they needed to shed their earthly vehicle (i.e. kill themselves).
Instead of the evidence convincing them against their belief, it hardened their conviction. This is what happens when people have invested a significant amount in an organization, and they are constantly surrounded by only view points that agree with them. (That's why I admire you, James, for being willing to watch this kind of video.)
It took more effort for the Heaven's Gate members to admit that they were wrong - than to kill themselves. Admitting they were wrong would mean they abandoned their family for years, wasted their time and talents, that they weren't the special ones chosen by the reincarnated Christ, and that they wouldn't actually be saved in the next level.
I think it would be cool to live forever in the afterlife with my wife and children and to become like God. I hope that's the case. However, honest seekers of truth are willing to put everything on the line: their reputation with their friends and family, and even the mental possibility of meeting their family again.
Are you willing to put that on the line, James, and actually find out the truth, or are you just here venting/patching up your own beliefs? Are you willing to genuinely consider which positions makes more sense, or are you trying to fit your position onto everything?
Vogel's problem with this whole psycho babble analysis (he is a historian, not a mind reader) is that there are at least twelve (12) witnesses to various divine events relative to Joseph Smith's prophetic mission. This includes viewing the plates, having a shared vision of Christ, and the presence of divine messengers (angels).
Well, of course he has an explanation. He completely ignores the actual statements, for example, of the eight witnesses who said that they handled the plates, hefted them, and viewed the engravings. He then makes up a fictional story without one shred of documented evidence. It is a fantasy that he dreamed up to explain the witness testimony.
There is one meager quote by a third party about "spiritual eyes", but no explanation is given on exactly what that means, and, indeed, whether the witness actually used that term itself.
Finally the three witnesses themselves continued to affirm their testimony, even after leaving the church for various personal reasons, even after the death of Joseph Smith, and finally each one giving a death bed testimony, which would be acceptable in any court of law as true.
None of these twelve witnesses denied their testimony.
So, Vogel is left with the difficult task of explaining this as either a co-conspracy, which he admits is unlikely, or that JS had some amazing capacity of deceiving twelve individuals, on separate occasions, on the outside (not hidden) of any building that they saw angels, plates that had the appearance of gold, and hearing the voice of God.
cdowis As I told you elsewhere, the published testimonies oversimplify what appears to have been a more complex situation. But that is not relevant to the video, which assumes the BOM is not historical. Given that the BOM is not historical, what were his motives? How did he justify his actions? If you won't concede that point, at least for the sake of discussion, you can't really participate in this discussion.
Dan Vogel
I have a personal knowledge that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, it is scripture, it is the revealed word of God.
The Lord gave it to us in these latter days as a second witness of Jesus ChrisT and His resurrection
Sooooo, I guess we have nothing to talk about.
Personal testimony only means something to you, so why bring it up? If you want to bear your testimony, go to church. You are wasting my time by trying to be cute instead of honestly responding to what I wrote above.
Dan Vogel So much for the witness's
"The printed statement of the 'Three Witnesses,' as contained in the front of the Book of Mormon, states that they saw the plates and the engravings. Another statement of eight witnesses adds that they 'hefted' the plates.
"Many ask, 'Certainly, they wouldn’t testify to something unless it was true! Or, would they?'
"WHO WROTE THE TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF THE BOOK OF MORMON?
"Where did the printed statement of the 'Three Witnesses'--Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer--come from? Did they actually write the testimony themselves? No!
"It is believed that Joseph Smith wrote the statement for them to sign. This appears to be evident since, at that time, he knew none of the witnesses had ever seen the plates with their natural eyes, as they themselves later admitted. Yet, when he worded it, he deliberately gave the impression they had.
"Stretching or misrepresenting the truth was no problem for Smith, for he had altered other revelations. According to Apostle William E. McLellin, the testimony of the Twelve Apostles contained in the Introduction to the Doctrine and Covenants, was a 'base forgery' and Smith had seriously altered other revelations. David Whitmer, one of the Three witnesses, accused Joseph of the same thing.
"WHAT DID 'THE WITNESSES' SEE?
"Whatever they saw and by whatever means, it was not in the dimension of physical reality.
"Martin Harris admitted he never saw anything with his natural eyes. He stated: 'I never saw the golden plates, only in a visionary or entranced state.'
"Further, he admitted the same to the printer who was working on the first edition of the Book of Mormon:
"'During the printing of the first edition of the Book of Mormon, he (Harris) was in the print shop while the type was being set for the testimony of the three witnesses. The printer, John Gilbert, asked him if he had seen the plates with his naked eye. “Martin looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, ‘No, I saw them with a spiritual eye.”
"He further told a Palmyra lawyer, who asked him: 'Did you see the plates and the engravings upon them with your bodily eyes?' He responded:
"'I did not see them as I do that pencil-case, yet I saw them with the eye of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me--though at the time they were covered with a cloth.'
"Harris further let the cat out of the bag when he revealed that the other eight witnesses saw no plates either. On April 15, 1838, Stephen Burnett gave the following report:
"'I have reflected long and deliberately upon the history of this church & weighed the evidence for & against it - loth to give it up - but when I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver nor David & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave away . . . . I therefore three weeks since in the Stone Chapel gave . . . the reasons why I took the course which I was resolved to do, and renounced the Book of Mormon. . . .
"'I was followed by W. Parrish, Luke Johnson & John Boynton, all of who concurred with me, (sic) after we were done speaking M. Harris arose & said he was sorry for any man who rejected the Book of Mormon for he knew it was true, he said he had hefted the plates repeatedly in a box with only a tablecloth or a handkerchief over them, but he never saw them, only as he saw a city through a mountain. And said that he never should have told that the testimony of the eight was false, if it had not been picked out of (him) but should have let it passed as it was.'
"So, in reality, the witnesses saw nothing!
“'Well,' some might insist, 'Doesn’t the "eye of faith" count? Harris and the eight wouldn’t have signed a statement if they hadn’t seen something!'
"What they saw, was a product of their own mind. Remember, by Harris’ own admission, everything he and the others saw, came as a vision. Historical accounts reflect that the witnesses were effectively induced to see the plates in a vision because of Smith’s mesmerizing methods.
"First, Smith persisted in badgering them by telling them that only the faithful could see them. That kind of remark would intimidate the best of men.
"Persuasion of this nature is similar to the ploy Mormon missionaries presently use. to the investigator (potential convert), they read Moroni’s promise at the end of the Book of Mormon, which says that if one asks God in the name of Christ, with a sincere heart, the truth will be manifest by the Holy Ghost.
"This can’t help but suggest to the investigator that if he doesn’t get an answer, he or she is not sincere. It doesn’t take much for the investigator to be intimidated, especially when the missionaries say others have received an answer. “What’s wrong with me,” the Investigator asks of himself. 'Why won’t God give me a confirmation?'
"As a result of this kind of pressure, many Investigators keep praying until they do get some kind of manifestation. It may be goose bumps or some kind of sensation; but, they finally take it as an answer, even if it is produced by their own psyche.
"However, for Mormons, that’s okay. The Mormon Church teaches that feelings are the way God authenticates truth. That should sound an alarm, for that is not what the Bible teaches!
"One should use a combination of methods. First, pray to initiate guidance in (1) researching the facts; (2) comparing the facts with God’s Word; (3) receiving counsel from other Christians; then, (4) pray to confirm what has been gleaned. Decision making must utilize every avenue at one’s disposal. In other words, God gave us a brain to use. He doesn’t expect us, as Josh McDowell [a Christian apologist, for the record] says, to commit 'intellectual suicide.'
"Similarly, Smith used the same devious manipulative method of intimidation. Playing upon the witnesses’ emotions, he engineered them into conjuring up a vision by telling them God was not allowing them to see the plates because they were 'unworthy' and needed to 'repent.' With that kind of pressure, individuals will see exactly what they are expected to see.
"An example of how Smith coerced the Eight Witnesses to see a vision, was told to the Governor of Illinois, Thomas Ford, by more than one of Smith’s key men:
"'They [Smith’s men] told Ford that the witnesses were “set to continual prayer, and other spiritual exercises.” Then at last “he assembled them in a room, and produced a box which he said contained the precious treasure. The lid was opened; the witnesses peeped into it, but making no discovery, for the box was empty, they said, "Brother Joseph, we do not see the plates." The prophet answered them, "O ye of little faith! how long will God bear with this wicked and perverse generation? Down on your knees, brethren, every one of you, and pray God for the forgiveness of your sins, and for a holy and living faith which cometh down from heaven." The disciples dropped to their knees, and began to pray in the fervency of their spirit, supplicating God for more than two hours with fanatical earnestness; at the end of which time, looking again into the box, they were now persuaded that they saw the plates.'
"That they saw the plates with their spiritual eyes instead of natural, accounts for newspaper reports which said that all Three Witnesses told different versions. This 'makes it all the more likely,' author Fawn Brodie notes in her book 'No Man Knows My History,' 'that the men were not conspirators but victims of Joseph’s unconscious but positive talent at hypnosis.'
"THE INVALIDITY OF THEIR TESTIMONY
"If the plates really existed, then it would not have been necessary for Smith to force 'the witnesses' to pray until they conjured up a vision of plates in an “empty” box.
"If the plates had been a physical reality, it certainly would have provided all eleven witnesses with a stronger testimony that Mormonism was indeed God’s work.
"In view of this, it is not surprising that all of the witnesses, with the exception of Smith’s father, his two brothers and two who died, left the church. Not very impressive.
"DID 'THE WITNESSES' EVER DENY THEIR TESTIMONY?
"The Mormon Church, of course, claims that none of the 'Three Witnesses' ever denied their testimony. But, Oliver Cowdery, according to the Mormon publication 'Times and Seasons,' did deny. Published in 1841, J.H. Johnson reflected the sentiments of the community by writing a poem attempting to reflect the fact that men may be untrue to the truth. The last stanza reads:
"'Or prove that Christ was not the Lord
Because that Peter cursed and swore?
Or Book of Mormon not his word
Because denied, by Oliver?'
"Oliver Cowdery, indeed, left the Mormon Church and joined the Methodist Church. He also said he was willing to make a public recantation and that he was 'sorry and ashamed of his connection with Mormonism.'
"The Mormon Church, however, claims Cowdery came back to the Church. But, if he did, he must have left again, because when he died he was buried by a Methodist minister in Richmond, Missouri.
"David Whitmer, still believing in the Book of Mormon (probably because of the many Biblical passages in it), became a member of the Church of Christ and died rejecting the LDS Church.
"Martin Harris joined Anna Lee’s church, the Shakers, saying that his testimony of Shakerism was greater than that of the Book of Mormon. Although later in life he came back to the Mormon Church and took out his temple endowments, he admitted it was just to find out 'what was going on in there.'
"Interestingly, as often happens with time and celebrity status, there are accounts in 'the witnesses’' later years, where they greatly enlarged their testimony. They are quoted as giving very different and exaggerated accounts--much different than during their earlier years. Fawn Brodie notes, in 'No Man Knows My History,' that David Whitmer’s testimony, given 49 years later, was too 'richly embellished.' Whitmer added a long list of things he supposedly saw, which were not mentioned in his earlier account: 'the Brass Plates, the plates of the Book of Ether . , . . a table with many records or plates upon it . . . also the Sword of Laban, the directors - i.e., the ball which Lehi had, and the Interpreters.'
"Martin Harris, in the last five years of his life, also gave an extraordinary testimony.
"Considering that 'the witnesses' admitted years earlier to seeing the plates in a “vision” or 'entranced state,' rather than as a physical reality, one must conclude that the embellishments of their testimony in later years was received in the same manner.
"Their motive? Mormon writer Richard L. Anderson says, 'Martin Harris, like all 'the witnesses,' was especially desirous at the end of his life to have people hear and repeat his testimony.' Why not? By that time, they had become celebrities!
"WHAT WOULD MOTIVATE 'THE WITNESSES' TO MAINTAIN THEIR TESTIMONY ABOUT THE PLATES, IN SPITE OF THEIR REJECTION OF THE MORMON CHURCH?
"Why would 'the witnesses' persevere in their testimony about the plates, even though they left the Mormon Church?
"There are five possible reasons:
"· They didn’t want to disillusion and destroy the faith of those who were converted to the Book of Mormon because of their testimony.
"· They may have retained a special feeling for the Book of Mormon because of its many Biblical passages.
"· Since their declaration is stated in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, they would not only be guilty of perjury, but their credibility would be suspect the rest of their life.
"· They would look pretty silly telling people that what they testified to and allowed to appear in print, really didn’t happen.
"· They began to enjoy their celebrity status and, so, in time, embellished their story.
"WHAT EXACTLY DID THE OTHER 'EIGHT WITNESSES' 'HEFT'?
"'The Eight Witnesses' stated they actually hefted the gold plates. They described them as 'weighing between 40 and 60 pounds and being approximately eight inches long, five or six inches wide, and five or six inches thick.'
"In the first place, there is no way they could have lifted them in the casual manner they describe. According to the measurements these plates of gold would have weighed nearly 230 pounds!
"Nevertheless, they must have hefted something. Therefore, it is believed that Smith may have duped them in the same way he duped two friends, William T. Hussey and Azel Vandruver.
"Showing them the supposed plates concealed beneath a canvas, Smith convinced them they were so sacred that if they looked directly upon them they would die.
"One of the friends, however, was so anxious that he ripped off the canvas, saying 'Egad, I’ll see the critter, live or die!'
What did he see?--Nothing but 'a large tile brick.'
"Bold as that individual was, it would be safe to assume that 'the Eight Witnesses' were not so bold. Defy Smith and risk immediate death? But, whatever it was they hefted, covered with a cloth, canvas or otherwise, Smith was able to persuade them it was the original plates which were delivered by an angel.
"Smith, however, was always pulling tricks like this and took great delight in fooling people. Once, after a rain shower, Smith discovered some white sand. He 'tied up several quarts of it [in his ‘frock’] and then went home.' His family was eager to know what he had. Smith later told Peter Ingersol:
"'At that moment I happened to think about a history found in Canada, called the Golden Bible; so I very gravely told them it was the Golden Bible. To my surprise they were credulous enough to believe what I said.'
"COULD JOSEPH HAVE FORGED FALSE PLATES AND ENGRAVINGS?
"What about the engravings the later witnesses claimed they saw on the plates? Their first account states a 'vision,' but later a reality.
"At a later point, many feel that Smith concocted some kind of plates of his own. Oliver Cowdery could certainly have made such a set, engravings and all, since he’d been a blacksmith in his youth. Fawn Brodie, in her book, also suggests that Joseph built a makeshift set of plates.
"By making real plates, Smith hoped to make money by exhibiting them. John C. Bennett, a close associate, said that Smith asked him to go to New York and obtain some falsely engraved plates so that he could exhibit them, at '25 cents a sight.' While anything Bennett could say might be suspect considering his reputation, nevertheless, in this instance, his story was backed up by Sarah, the wife of Mormon historian and Apostle, Orson Pratt.
"When one researches the facts (instead of relying on feelings), one can only reach one conclusion: the plates were an elaborate hoax.
"One has to pity 'the witnesses' who, at first, may not have wished to testify to something that wasn’t true. They were manipulated and intimidated by a man they believed was a prophet of God to the point where they finally induced a vision.
"It is also thought by some, that they were influenced further because of the family connections. Four of 'the eight witnesses' were Whitmers; Hiram Page married a Whitmer daughter; and three were members of Joseph’s own family. Mark Twain later observed: I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified.
"What did 'the witnesses' of the Book of Mormon really see? Plates, which admittedly were always covered with a cloth. Plates which they only saw in a 'vision' or 'entranced state'--never with their 'natural' eyes.
"These 'witnesses’' testimony of the gold plates has attracted over nine million converts to the Mormon Church (as of 1996), which doubles its population every 10 to 12 years at the rate of 840 new members a day.
"Mormons continue to be deceived, along with many unsuspecting converts, who accept this story without investigating the facts. . . .
+cdowis "Personal knowledge?" Voices told you? You dreamed it? What bs! No court in the world would buy that pile of manure. You have no knowledge because you have nothing independently verifiable.
I’m LDS. Watched the whole video and enjoyed it a lot. I’m not trying to be willfully ignorant, but I do still believe he was a prophet. But I completely understand how he can not be viewed as a prophet. I just have had spiritual experiences that I feel told me it’s true. Everyone can have there own opinion though
In the same way that the Pharisees of Jesus days,,,who were the highly educated men of scripture,,,who crucify the lord,,
,it is in your highly educated opinion,,,who is and is not a man appointed by god,,,a prophet,,,,and point out a few things of what he did do or didn't do!!!regardless of all the things that he did do ...you want to claim that JS is not a man of god...just like the Pharisees. Who said that Jesus was of the devil..I would suggest to anyone that is listening to YOUR OPINIONS!!!! to take the time and read the book of Mormon,,,and come to your own opinion,,,n not rely on other people's opinions...just because this man has his opinion...doesn t mean anything...who cares what he says...how many things can you name where man gave his opinion,,and was WRONG!!!And let this man join the Pharisees,,,where ever they may be!!!and never let anyone influence you and your own opinion...take the time and do your own research!!!and let your own truths,,set u free...
Is that your opinion?
Larry Debaker, I agree that it's a good idea to read the Book of Mormon and come to your own opinion. I also think it's a great idea for every Christian to read the entire Bible, from the first page of Genesis to the last page of Revelation.
I appreciate your reporting. If you truly are seeking the rest of the puzzle Dan I can share it with you.
So you know it! Wow! Why haven't you published your knowledge then?
@@stephenjackson7797... in the process of starting his own cult of personality as we speak...
I think most people over think the whole restoration of the Lords church through the prophet Joseph Smith. In my opinion if he Had he been a false prophet the church would not be bearing all the good The church does throughout the world. In my opinion people tend to over complicate things and rely too much on What other people such as yourself has to say. Everyone is entitled to an Opinion. But doesn't mean it's gonna be correct. I
Dave Watson, you'd think that if Muhammad had been a false prophet people would have figured it out long ago. But today there are about 1.8 billion Muslims in the world. Every religion brags about the good it does in the world and the terrific benefits it brings to its followers.
All the "good" it does? Wow. You aren't paying attention then.
You are unqualified to know or comment on the motives of Joseph
Smith.
None of us is qualified to comment on Joseph Smith's motives on any subject. We can only comment on his actions as reported by primary eye witnesses, and here we can not be sure that our interpretations are accurate. Those who impute bad motives to Joseph Smith are telling us much more about themselves than about Joseph.
@@p154220 you make an assertion that no one is qualified to pry into a person's mind and discern their motives. Yet, as humans that is what we do every day. We make guesses as to why people do what they do. Our criminal justice system is based on this principle. It seems more likely that you are personally offended by this video's suppositions, as it implies that anyone who believes that Joseph Smith was a true prophet is a fool for doing so.
We are humans. We are all qualified to comment on people's motives. It's how we survive. It's part of being human. in this case, Dan does his research. So I believe him.
yes he's a joke....he boasted about he did more than any man did including JESUS.. he blasphemy the LORD.....JESUS died for his sins....well u know where he's @ n the the rest of his followers......rt now they're waiting for the 2nd coming of Jesus to receive His tru church n those believed in joseph smith to resurrection of damnation....the bible is very clear on that..
Thank you for giving YOUR version of what he said. .... Anyway, I suppose you "forgot" that Peter himself denied Christ three times, that he almost killed one of the servants in the Garden of Gethsemane. The Lord calls fallible humans as His prophets. They say and do silly things but they are still the prophetic messengers for Christ.
*****
You are correct. A prophet does do hot claim to be God Himself, but the messenger of God.
*****
God created man in His image, and Joseph Smith revealed that the Father has a physical body of flesh and bones even as Christ did after the resurrection.
D&C 130: 22 22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
As Christ said, if ye have seen me, ye have seen the Father.
Ever notice that Mormons try to turn God into a man and men into gods ?
Too nice to be true
So Dan what do you believe... I have caned all Christan churches for the book of John.
I have no idea what you're asking. They start teaching grammar in the fifth grade...
Only an intelligent skeptic could come up with this masterful essay. Well done.
Clairvoyance - -
What Smith's enemies accuse him of while engaging in the same.
I really have to wonder what people such as Dan Vogel hope to achieve by spending hundreds of hours creating UA-cam videos against Joseph Smith.
Is he actually accomplishing anything useful or good? Not in the least.
It's merely a hobby for him to make such disputes, to have "fun" because he has nothing better to do with his time. Prove me wrong.
I'm just a historian. I liked studying Mormon history as a believer. This interest didn't stop when I stopped believing. Historians study history, why not Mormonism? Historians write books and make videos about history of many things, why not Mormonism?
@@danvogel6802 - Yes. But when it comes to religion, it's best to get it straight from the horse's mouth, and be able to comprehend and interpret it all correctly, and in context. If your only source is from the outside, then you're not getting much information. That would be like getting the history of Germany from the point of view of Adolph Hitler.
@@scotthullinger9955 Who is the "horse" in your silly scenario here? Vogel gets his stuff from reading the writings of the people contemporary to JS. I can't imagine a better source than that.
Dan, you have no grounds on which to judge Joseph Smith's motives. If you must try then you should be charitable.
We ALL have grounds to try to judge other people's motives. It's called the human condition. Get used to it.
Joseph Smith was a mystic. Joseph Smith was prophet, seer and revelator.
Well a prophet have prophecies that get full filed. Tell me about one legit Joseph Smith Prophecie. Please do so.
he was such a con man- have you read the original Section 1 of the D&C ? The very fact he changed it the way he did proves he had nothing but lies coming down the track.
@F. Moussa How about Doctrine and Covenants section 87 maybe eh? By the way, none of Smith's prophecies failed!
Richard Holmes You are truly a Mormonite minion Richard, And because of that Richard, when you die, and you will one day, HELL will be the place where you will be going.
it was the will of God that they should be ordained to the ministry and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh - even fifty six years should wind up the scene. (History of the Church, Vol. 2, page 182).
This Failed prophecy was spoken by Joseph Smith in 1835, and recorded by Oliver Cowdery. The fifty-six years were passed by 1891.
Verily, thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto the world. (Doctrine & Covenants 114:1)
This Failed prophecy was made on April 17, 1838. David W. Patten died in October of 1838 and thus never went on a mission the following spring.
Shall I go on Richard ?
How about the Kirtland anti-bank?? It sort of failed, I think. When this so-called "prophecy" failed, Joe found himself riding out of town quickly, with pissed-off investors in hot pursuit! He'd already experienced tar-and-feathering for attempting to seduce a young girl, and was not about to undergo that ordeal again.
It's good and important to seek the truth, and listen too different points of view, however to truly know if Joseph Smith was a prophet of God requires knowledge from the true source God. Just ask with a sincere heart:) because he is
Sweetie. No. Just no. There is no such thing as a 'sincere heart.' The bible mentiones many times how the heart is deceitful. Smith fails EVERY SINGLE TEST of a TRUE prophet of God. Check it out in Deuteronomy. Absolutely NONE of his 'prophecies' came true. And don't even get me started on his biggest fraud, the so called Book of Abraham. Which was actually a funeral prayer that had to do with Osiris, Isis, and Horus. I feel so sorry for Mormons, who are generally good people who love the Lord, but have been so deceived by Smith.
Michelle Solis, what makes you think the Bible is true? Have you ever read the entire Bible, from the first page of Genesis to the last page of Revelation?
Prove it! Feelings aren't proof.
This video is completely misguiding. I talked to some of the Mormon missionaries and I asked them about this. You should do the same if you want the truth.
Also those pictures were actually of a civil war general not Joseph smith.
wow. reread what you just wrote and see if you can see what is wrong with your rationale. of course they told you a different story. i taught the same "truth" when i was serving as a missionary. the problem is that the missionaries themselves are deluded and misguided by falsities and untrue content. perhaps a little objective research would help you out.
Jacob Young: The Mormon History Association (to which the top Mormon and LDS historians belong) awarded Dan their "Turner-Bergera Best Biography" award in May 2005 for his excellent biography "JOSPEH SMITH: THE MAKING OF A PROPHET." Another Mormon historical society--the John Whitmer Historical Association--awarded the book their "Best Book of the Year" award in 2004.
Dan is an outstanding historian and if you are unfamiliar with the contents of this video, it ,may be because you have not studied enough of the documents that the first generation of Mormon themselves wrote.
Also the drawing of Joseph Smith in uniform was created IN HIS LIFE TIME when he served as the of the Nauvoo Legion--the second largest military unit in the United States at the time. As a Civil War historical writer myself, the uniform that Joseph is wearing looks nothing like the uniforms worn during the years of the Civil War (1861-1865).
So mormon missionaries can only speak the truth? Prove it!
Or...he was a prophet of God
Or he was a deluded psychopathic meglomaniac who used "revelation" to further his own ends, especially getting under the skirts of women. Just like mohammed I might add.
+Mattias Ristholm A test of your Christian/American principles: Will you publicly condemn the murder of Joseph Smith? (Whether or not you like him) Will you condemn the fraudulent intrusion into Mormon temples with a hidden camera? These are basic American values of property rights and privacy rights. Also, the Christian golden rule is in play. Do you condemn them?
+ John lee. I like this comment John. You're accurately on to something. Actions speak louder than words. The saddest thing about those who leave the church is the first thing they forget is to allow all people to worship who,where, and what they may. They are not Christian, they are critics.
John Lee +John Lee. Why do you ask? Still out to get me? Still out to defame my carachter so you don't have to process any of my arguments? Well I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you have honorable intentions.
First it needs to be pointed out that my views regarding your questions do not in any way redeem JS from his apparent lack of carachter. Even if I am the biggest a-hole on the planet my sentiments regarding him are still valid.
Secondly I am not american so what you mean by christian christian/american principles is not clear to me. To me they are not always the same.
I think JS deserved a fair trial as do any criminal so no I do not approve of a mob killing him.
As for your second question what I think of that is absolutely irrelevant to whether the mormon church is based on a massive fraud or not.
I think that the covert filming is a gray area, ethicly. The person who did it was a mormon so if anyone would film a temple cermony it is more ethical than if an outsider would do it.
I think secret societies are repugnant to an open democratic nation. So in that sense I think it's all good that people expose groups like the masons or a masonic offshoot like temple mormonism. As I think the LDS is a based on fraud exposing it is doing society a service. In this case I would label it as civil disobidience. As a general rule I do not approve of secret filming thou.
So how do you feel about JS killing two people from the mob? How do you feel about him calling out the the masonic call of distress while falling out the window?
+Mattias Ristholm Sorry...I thought you were an American. You don't share our values and I'll not discuss them further with you.
I believe in Christ. I believe in Saint'n.
Which one commands us to Obey, and to Not Question, as the first and Great commandment, and the second like unto it?
You Buy-bull people sure have a way with words!
Dan Vogel; You are part of the continuing controversy of false accusations and spurious charges, that have always surrounded the Lord himself when he was on His ministry and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day saints. You are precisely like those old, who in their very cruelest manner nailed their Savior and King to a wooden cross, and are as guilty as those wicked men were.
For you, like they, bring forth false and spurious charges against a loving Father of salvation. In a way, you are doing a service, by doing this, you are showing just where the real Church of Jesus Christ is. For Satan certainly knows, and it is he who inspires a continual attack against the Lord's works. Satan can not abide anyone to go on, when he cannot. He is most miserable, and he is seeking company, in his misery. He is dedicated to the destruction of all of God's works.
And those who view this swirling controversy, immediately know just where to look for the true church of the Lamb, so that they may partake and have a life of joy.
The Lord has always spoken through prophets ( Amos 3:7) unless He is upon the earth Himself. Why don't you know that?
And why don't you ever read the bible, to find out how to distinguish a true prophet from a false one? ( Matthew 16:13-20 )
There is plenty of biblical scripture that speaks of a restoration, and 'that' wouldn't be needed 'if' there wasn't a falling away, .. now would it? And how shall 'that' be done?? Again, Amos 3:7 tells us in very plain language how 'that' shall happen.
SciPro
Sci Pro, why should I believe the Bible? Have you ever read the entire Bible, from the first page of Genesis to the last page of Revelation?
I find the whole idea of an apostasy very strange. Why would God leave his church without guidance for thousands of years? What was the point of that?
There is a ton of "historical" evidence (archeological & *newer* DNA studies) now confirming the existence of the vast "Moundbuilder" and Adena peoples (possessing Near East mitochondrial DNA H-subgroup(s) X2a and X2j), and much of the archeological evidence found in North America (swords, cimeters, breast plates, farming implements, etc.) has now been carbon dated and strongly supports Book of Mormon timelines. Only misleading sycophants who choose to remain willfully ignorant on these subjects (such as Mr. Vogel) will continue to promote the false assertion that no such evidence exists.
Rick Holt where is this proof?
R. Holt, take a look at the "LDS Truth Claims" series of videos by Brett McDonald. Even LDS scholars do not necessarily agree with you on these points.
Paul said if we or a angel from heaven preaches any other doctrine let him be accursed galatians chapter 1 so we had to wait 1800 years after jesus died to fulfill the gospel jesus never said that to his apostles he said go preach the gospel 2000 yrs ago I was perplexed by mormons cause they seem good and I'm a average joe so I prayed n there doctrine does not line up to the bible which I believe amen
Go cite your silly Buy-bull elsewhere among believers in fantasies like yourself.