I just installed a lithium battery in my caravan. I did about 100 hours of research and joined groups to make sure I didn't stuff it up. I received no answer because of so many controller I found you and all my doubts were put to rest. Thank you very much.
Thanks Andy, it’s always great to see another video like this from you, (and as always, love the humour, 👍). I also trust you’ll get back to us when you have fully charged and discharged the new cells 10,000 times. I suspect that will take you twenty or likely even more years, so hope I live long enough to see the results, will certainly look forward to that. Cheers😊
Hi Andy! Nice to see you again! I've just get mine battery delivery, 30Ah LifePo4 96 cells from alliexpress. And then started mine nightmare... I started to test them and... tested 6, the tester has failed. ZKE EBC-A20. I can do any settings, it remember all, but on testing screen there are only zeroes. The tester does not see connected battery - voltage 0. The second problem is that every tested cells has 22-25Ah only. What a great day!!!
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Now I'm thinking what to do. I think I'll open a dispute through aliexpress and see what happens. I have to buy a new tester also.
you should calculate the energy efficiency of charge discharge. The capacity is not the same. The voltage is higher on charge then discharge. You should multiply the V*I then integrate for up and down. Great Video!
Andy, I have been importing these cells for a while now to South Africa, and have the following conclusion: There are only 4-5 (real) manufacturers of prismatic LiFePO4 cells in China, they are: EVE, LiShen, (Lichen) CATL ( China Aviation Lithium Battery Co ltd), BYD And then also Samsung/Panasonic/LG; but you will not find the prismatic cells easily. These manufacturers generally sell to other large manufacturers mainly EV,s and larger commercial entities. The cells that does not meet the cut in required standard/specification generally ends up for auction in China and multiple companies buy these cells up, weld studs on, re-wrap and re-qrcode these cells. The biggest issue is consistency of product but it is possible to buy 360-1600 of these cells from the re-sellers that came from the same manufacturer as well as same production batch. If you buy smaller quantities (below 10 000 units) you will not be able to buy directly from the manufacturer in most cases. One of the reasons for the new qr-code is because the original manufacturer insists this is done, EVE for example since February 2022 only allowed there cells (so called rejected cells) to be sold on if it had a "B" in the serial number. P.s. there have recently entered a few more manufacturers in China like OptimumNano, Wanxiang A123, Guoxuan, WINA and JB Battery. The cells that is sold like what you buy from Alibaba and AliExpress are never directly from manufacturers but more likely bought on auction, re-wraped, re-qrcode, via re-sellers. They are from experience 87.4% of the time reasonable cells and will give rated capacity and give you many cycles 3600-6000( chemistry department not manufacturer) The secret is the find a re-sellers that can consistently provide Quality cells. I have only been able to fined three of these.
Thanks for sharing. Yeah, I made 1-2 videos about this problem on my channel as well. The main problem is still that the reseller's honesty does not match the expectations of the buyers. As long as they can make seme $$$, they will keep doing it.
I'm still receiving lots of comments and emails from people who think their cells are bad because the voltage does not increase after a day of charging. It took me a while as well, to understand how LFP works.
Another great vid & info Andy & reconfirms my thoughts that buying Lifepo4 cells from China is a hit and miss game , but finding a good supplier helps increase our chances of receiving better cells more often. Thanks for ur efforts. Cheers
Ideally you want a cell tested by a third party safety agency against UL1642 and IEC 62133. Its a voluntary requirement here in the U.S. where importance of safety is in the eye of the beholder. Thank you sir for yet another stellar video!
Great catch on the hidden code underneath. Maybe they are just rewrapping some other manufacturer's cells. The sudden stop of communication is a bit concerning. They should at least have answers to your questions.
The communication with them is my biggest concern. If it would not be their cell, they could have denied that right away and point out some features and differences. But not responding is very suspicious.
Very interesting video! That's why you're the best and we are here! 😉 The Chinese apparently keep manipulating cells and sell them with their own specs. I thought the grade A and B got a bit more clear after your videos from last year and the B in the qr codes. But apparently it's not. Nice work Andy!
Thanks a lot, Martin. We know that EVE engraves a B on top of the barcode to let everyone know the cell did not meet the specifications but do other manufacturers do this as well? Obviously not. Again, I still think these are great cells for our solar storage projects.
i love your videos and the extreme testing you do! i was watching your active balancer videos and thought of a test for you: mix a small capacity cell into a large capacity 12v or vise versa with several active balancers working together, enough to handle the full charge current. this test will confirm if it is possible to get all the capacity out of every cell.
The balancers will only ever deliver a high balance current if there is enough voltage delta. Also, we have tested and discussed this a while back with the Batterie1.0 and the low capacity cell 6, 7 and 8 in this pack. Active balancers running all the time won't help and put even more stress onto the weak cell because it gets this constant additional charge at the bottom and top. The gain was minimal though.
Thanks, Andy. Here’s what I think. “There are liars, damn liars, and Chinese battery companies.” I think these are grade B cells which were relabeled due to some fault. I’ve been thinking about building a battery pack for a while but buying cells from China has always scared me off. It seems that almost no one receives grade A cells!
great video. at 19:18 the spec says charge/ discharge at 0.5P (not C), i guess they mean at 280Ax3.2V x 0.5 leading to 448W constant power, thus it might be possible to test the cells at about 140A 6 cycles per day, thus instead of 27years someone could test the claim in 6.5 years. but bogus barcodes make one suspect that the products are not accounted for and thus no warranty claims are likely heeded by anyone (infamous tailgate warranty)
They are definitely not genuine Hithium cells. I have warranty on them with my supplier, not with whoever manufactured them. If this will be upheld, I don't know.
Thanks for the Details & ongoing Lessons. Claim of 10000 cycle life and new chemistry sounds very interesting and attractive, but those two bar codes look very fishy, iffy, & like a red flags for possible BS scam to me. Glad you are investigating, testing, and feeding our curiousities about ongoing evolution of these batteries. Thank You.
My guess is that your cells may not have met Hithium's manufacturing/performance standards in some way & Hithium didn't want to deal whatever the issue was, so they discounted them & sold them in bulk to a reseller, who added some value to them before relabeling them & selling them to you.
My experience with QSO is they are polite and helpful, but not 100% honest. I think I got some good cells in the beginning when I flashed the "Andy sent me", but when I started asking too many questions I got the "hey look over there" typical diversion responses and had to move on from them. It would be great if someone would sell automotive grade Eve cells directly to the public in batches of 16 for those who don't mind paying for top shelf items backed by an honest and reliable company.
12:50 These are not charging losses. Rather they are tolerances in measuring current and time in your tester. Only if you look at the energy (instead of capacity), there would also be heat losses in the measured values.
What an interesting and very exciting video this was! Thanks for sharing your discovery with us Andy, it kept us all standing on our chairs 😍Perhaps these batteries were acquired from the original manufacturer who, for whatever reason, discarded them and revamped them by your seller?
Thanks Mauro. Most likely, they didn't meet the specifications and were auctioned off to resellers. I just don't understand the barcode logic of covering the original barcode. Could be that the manufacturer did that to hide their brand from lower quality cells on the market. I think they are still great for that price and performance.
Scenario #1.) China was dodging import duties into the U.S., and needed to create sketchy QR codes that will NOT scan properly in order to evade U.S. Customs? Scenario #2.) Patrick was put in charge (+/-) of production at the Crusty Crab LiFePO4 battery plant. Great channel with some really cool late night deep dives into lithium batteries.
Hello Andy, could you also include the environmental temperature during your testing? I've recently received my cells and tested them at 12°C environmental temperature. I noticed that almost none of the cells was able to pull rated capacity. After some investigation I found out that there might be a >3% difference in capacity between the 25°C recommended testing temp and the 12°C in my testing environment. Accounting for the 3% difference the cells would be able to pull rated capacity at the recommended testing temperature. (304 cells and they pull around 299.5-302 Ah) Therefore I believe that including the average temperature (or a graph of the temp during the testing) could really help with the understanding of your results. This would also help to make the testing more reproducable.
In the german Akkudoktor-Forum someone made a little "reverse engineering" on the temp-graphs shown in the EVE LF280K spec-sheet. So as a rule of thumb you could guess a capacity drop of 0,3% per degree (Celsius/Kelvin) below 25°C (it isn't that linear, but should fit). So if you test at 12°C you might roughly (very roughly) come from 299.5 to 311.65 Ah if tested at 25°C (3,9% lower capacity because of the temp). Was that you in that forum? I also introduced this as graph of temperature adjusted capacity on my video on NKON EVE LF280K "true" Grade A cell test. I solely measured cell temperatur with an infrared thermometer in the middle of the big flat (bulgy) cell area at the beginning of the test (but i got temp logging active for my testing area - cell temperature matched the room temperature very closely and room temperature near the testing area rose by 1-2°C during testing because of the heat from the EBC-A40L). I might try a comparative test with the next batch of cells i plan to order - one at 25°C (thinking of building a test cabin) and one at a lower temperature (maybe in my 15°C basement).
@@fldutch I also have those cells from NKON LF280K “true Grade A cell”, they are good cells but not Grade-A, Grade-A are cells that pass all tests and are sold to the industry and that’s why we do not see them, is also why Eve coded them with a B in the code and provided them with that double connection, just enjoy and use theme, anyway, that's how I think about it.😊
@@habana7638 No B on that qr-code 🤷🏻 - and the B in the code stands for LiFePO4 - 04QCB …- EVE (04Q) - Cell (C) - LFP (B) - according to EVE datasheets. Ok, dont know what the real source is, connections are normally not applied by eve and the barcode is easy to remove and re-laser engravable. Not easy to determine if it really is grade A or B. But of course there is a reason for writing „true“ :). I do not trust anybody in the battery market. Anyway up to now they are better quality compared to my docan delivery. And the price (for me, running a business, so no VAT) is just the same as from Docan. And if sth is wrong with the cells i‘ll go and visit them in the netherlands - „just“ a 3hr drive ;). In the end i bought from NKON and not from Gobelpower/Docan/younameit from Alibaba or directly because of possible DDP scam. As a business person i do care about not having proper tax documents and only a proforma invoice - a little scary. Buying within the EU is much more safe on that side and if prices are equal, there i go and buy at NKON.
@@fldutch Same here, I have been ordering from NKON for years and they are trusted, so I was happy that I could just order them in the Netherlands, have been using them for a year now and they are fine cells, use them with an SBMS0 that only balances 150 to 200mAh and stay within the 10mV delta even with large loads, I haven't tested them because I honestly don't care, just use it and the future will tell.😄 oh and I have a JK BMS as a spare you never know, be prepared..
In addition to what you pointed out the Hithium on drawing they do not show a post coming from the + or - cells. Send all back to QSO. Good or not, there is no verifiable information on them.
No manufacturer of cells is welding studs onto terminals (see pictures on their website). Coming from the factory, they are always flat. Always. The reseller does all that, either drills a hole or welds a stud.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia The exception is the original EVE LF280 (no n, no k). That one had holes drilled in by EVE and were specified as such in the datasheet.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia So they are roughly 2/3rd of the price of an EVE cell. And for this price they can compete with their initial performance with an EVE cell. Perhaps EVE and others are too expensive.
@@Stefan_Dahn Can't confirm that. The last quote I got from EVE Energy Co was US$165 per cell for 32 cells plus shipping, tax, customs. That was 4 weeks ago. Over 40% more than for the Hithium B grade cells. Or whatever brand that is...
Nice Review Andy, considering that you did this video in 2023 Jan 20. Would you recommend using 580w * 8pc(4640w) panels to charge this Hithium 48v 280Ah? Also what's the max discharge rate you would recommend on this battery?
Lead acid has a 70% charge acceptance, so at over 95% charge acceptance is phenomenal, that is what I am looking most forward to with the Lithium Polymer 384 Ah 48V pack I am putting in. I want to get a cell tester some day, but atm I'll only have the JK BMS to know if they're any good
@OffGridGarageAustralia how are these batteries going? I'm curious to see the results after all this time. I recently had a reseller trying to sell these @$40usd per cell.
It's not a QR Code but rather a Data Matrix Code. Suggest try scanning with a compatible scanner or app. (QR code has the large blocks in 3 corners, Data Matrix Code identifiable by the right angle formed by the edge of 2 sides.
Charge/Discharge tests finished on my Xiamen Hithium Energy Storage Technology (Hithium), 280Ah prismatic cells: charged to 3.6 V @40 A I got 300 Ah when discharged to 2.5 V @40 A! To me seems that those cells are the first testing production of their new model 300Ah prismatic cell launched at RE+ event... What do you think?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia ANAHEIM, Calif., Sept. 23, 2022 /PRNewswire/ -- Xiamen Hithium Energy Storage Technology Co., Ltd. ("Hithium") has this week celebrated a successful launch of its newest offerings in battery product innovations at RE+ 2022 in Anaheim, USA. As one of Hithium's latest two game-changing batteries, the newly released cutting-edge 300Ah Prismatic Cell tailored for electric energy storage is capable of achieving "zero" loss in the first 3 three years of use[1], with a long cycle life of 12,000cls and energy efficiency of 95%.
You seem to be a very smart man. I need your advice with lifepo4 cells.. So i have 8 230A cells connected in series and im trying to pull 2200 watt, it has 2C rate so the battery cells should be able to provide easily. But with a 2,5 kw continu and 5kw peak dc to ac inverter i cant pull even 1700w 🤔 How would you troubleshoot this..?
Your last statement of 1700w seems off the track, is it continues? Peak? At what SoC? Are these new cells? Lot of factors and variables, so maybe a forum would be more suitable for answer
@@abid583ind thanks for your advice I figured it out. 3,2v x 8 x 230ah should be able to provide above 10kwh with 2C which is almost 7 times the needed 1,7kw to charge my EV.. I had cheap and lose aluminium busbars which couldn't handle the load. I have 6mm2 copper wire now..
@@NasierOmran glad it worked out. Thanks for posting the solution as well, did you figure it out by yourself, any forum that you know of where we can look up these kinda issues?
How could they have tested the 10000 Cycles? With 0.5C charge, 30 min rest, 0.5C discharge, 30min rest, a full cycle would need 5 hours. You can do less than 5 cycles a day. 10.000 cycles would be more than 2000 days (more than 5 years). Do they test less cycles and do some kind of prediction with the remaining capacity? Edit: Had an error in the maths.
Yes, and test with smaller versions and extrapolate. This is part of testing called HALT (highly accelerated life testing) as well and common for these things.
@@Stefan_Dahn With 'you' he didn't mean himself or the viewer, he obviously meant the scientists that work on these battery technologies (like Jeff Dahn and many others)...
Please try to test some LTOs if you can. The 40A cylindrical models like HAKADI LTO 2.4V 40Ah A Grade. I could not get my hands on some, maybe you can. All the best !
I would not hold my breath on any warranty statements of these resellers. Damaged cells are usually covered but how do you claim a cell after 4 years? Impossible to get a replacement by then...
Hi andy and other fine people. i always watch your videos and i like them alot. i build a 16s battery but some of the cells have black scorth marks at the terminals. is this mayby because my connections where not good enough? i think it so strange. thanks
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I noticed that you are using Lifepo4 blue cans. Why not use Winston battery (yellow cans) they are much better. it seems so to me. do you have any experience of using it? what is the opinion?
Ist der von dir gefunde Barcode unter dem Label denn ein originaler? Die sind normal gelasert oder? Nicht dass das auch schon ein Fake Barcode ist. Ein Barcode von EVE schaut zumindest anders aus. Viele Grüße
I really enjoy your work, learned so much.. Quesiton, I have a quesiton, I have 3 150ah Lifepo4 iron Phos battery a neighbor just got a Dawnice DW-PW15ESS-LV, 280 ah battery. Why is he needing not able go below 49.5 volts and SOC is 7%, and as for Stop discharge not able to go lower than 54v setting on the controller for the Battery.. using CAN com with the controller.. and at 52.51v and cells are at 3.282 and SOC is 39.55%.. Yet my LifePo at cells 3.34 I will be at 98% and fully charged and soaking at 3.40 cell. I nee help to understand his battery, unless it is a ION/ Li-Ion battery. is the only way I can see it. Help I'm drowning in Cells, lol
great video! were they cheap? including shipping? Just looking at the shrink wrap, it seems that the Hithium brand was "added" with a sticker - still were you scammed? not sure. But you likely didn't get a Grade A cell.
Hi Andy, and thank you again for this video,👍 particularly interesting!! It's always the same thing, reject battery or used battery, and buy them at auction, by resellers, who solder new terminals, redo the packing and put their own QR code which does not correspond to anything (or certainly just to reference their stock) So again, not sure what to buy? and my opinion, they are bad battery or already used, because if they were good, the Manufacturer would sell them himself and not sell them at auction. Normally the manufacturer erases the bar code, or asks that it be concealed. Because they don't want to hear about these battery anymore. Wanting to believe that these battery are of good quality is a mistake. And announced 10,000 cycles!!! these Chinese dealers really take people for idiots. For a Cycle per day that represents more than 25 years!!! If you ask the reseller to guarantee them for only 5 years, he will refuse, or if he accepts, in 5 years this reseller will no longer exist, and or will have changed his name. My opinion, to buy quality battery you have to buy them directly from the manufacturer, unfortunately they are much more expensive and that's normal, and also often they ask for a large MOQ. For a use, energy storage, we can think, that these battery resold, by resellers, will be able to satisfy us, but unfortunately I doubt it. It is in the long term by aging that the problems will arrive. In any case, Andy, thank you again, for spending so much time for these tests, and for sharing it with us,👍😁 it's important to remember, that we find everything and anything in this lithium market cells, and that the Chinese resellers, get rich, without worrying about the buyer, their goal is to sell and that's it.
I was also interested in buying such cells and the seller claimed Hithium is a CATL company. Don't know if this is true anyway.
2 роки тому+2
Based on the methodology described within the spec sheet (0,5C charge + discharge + 2x 30 minute rest for one cycle), the 10 000 cycle test for this battery cell should take 10 000 * ( 2h + 0,5h + 2h +0,5h) = 50 000 hours. This means almost 6 years of testng. Was this battery cell put on the market 6 years ago? If not, this would be proof the seller is not serious.
Well, no manufacturer tests their cells like this. They do maybe a few months and then extrapolate the data. Do some more testing in heat and cold and with the data gained, they got a good idea how this chemistry will perform over time. EVE, CATL, Panasonic... they all do it that way. Nobody is waiting for 4 years before they bring out a new battery chemistry.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Not just with batteries. Any product that lasts for years like this is tested in a highly accelerated life tests (HALT) and data is always extrapolated. You wouldn't be able to do R&D to get to a product otherwise.
Well at least my community post comment was valid "looks repackaged" or something. I reckon someone bought a pallet of grade B/storage and then has selling them on - and did a small attempt to hide the original code. And don't expect an issue with them in use, or any major internal differences to the Eve - probably just a clone to up production numbers in China, but marketed with the 70% @10k cycles to try and differentiate them
Yeah, you could be right. Not that I'm surprised with all of that, but I really wanted to know who is doing the shit-part in this whole transformation of these cells. But even the original QR didn't scan correctly and back in March last year, these cells were actually not on the market yet.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Probably because the author of the app doesn't know Hithium cells - they are a newer company, and I've also never seen 280Ah cells from them.
The second hidden bar code said 2022, they were swollen, and the spec for internal resistance is 0.18 milliohms +/- (vs) 0.24 milliohms measured... Something smells not right.. A grade... It should be up to the manufacturer to prove that..
Sorry guys.. If you charge with 0.5C and charge again 0.5C you need 4 hours. Multiplied by 6000 or 10000.... My year has only 8760 hours = 2190 4 hour cycles.... So the manufacturer did 3-5 years product testing bevore sales???
So .5 C with 1/2 hour rest period is about 5 hours per cycle. 10,000 cycles would be almost 6 years. Hard to believe cells had been tested for 6 years.
With all of these lithium figures, other than the alternator voltage which can be changed, why do people recommend NOT using a lithium battery for a car/truck battery replacement? Don
I've always thought the test specs for LIFEpo4 cells are weird, and I doubt that the manufacturer are actually performing them. For instance: What is the C (charge/discharge) value according to? Is it: a). According to the actual cell capacity (given by last cycle)? or b). According to the cell specified capacity? But most evident: If a test was to be performed according to these specifications, it will take like 5.7 YEARS to complete. Ok, a little less since the capacity is fading over time. (Also, constant power is to be used in this case (not constant current) which is really weird. C-ratio is always related to current.) Using constant power will change the time of the test in some way, but who knows which way and how much. Anyway, it is not much time difference in the whole. The math is simple: One charge/discharge cycle at 0.5C will take 4 hours (2 hours charge, 2 hours discharge). To that add 2*30 minutes of shelving. That's 5 HOURS PER CYCLE. 10000 cycles is 50000 hours. 50000 hours is 5.7 YEARS. Do we honestly believe the manufacturer have had a final product sitting on the bench for this long BEFORE it was released? No! Never! I think all "capacity tests" are just a modelling. They might test over some days or weeks and model the rest of the behaviour according to the expected behaviour of the chemical composition. Please advice me if I'm not understand this correctly, or if I'm doing some erroneous thinking...
No manufacturer is testing batteries for 5 years +. They test for a few months in different climates and extrapolate the data. That's not just for batteries, but for almost all other devices, materials and items as well...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Makes sense and is in line with my comment/thoughts. You obviously know this for a fact (?!) and might want to highlight this in one of your videos considering the amount of followers you have
Or they grind down the original QR codes and laser new ones on it... you can see it nicely when you look at the background of the QR and the rest of the cup from the lid.
Temperature is a factor which is obvious. SOC as well... Voltage and Ri matched is such a marketing argument. Unless they test them at different temperatures and also different SOC and then match... but, nah, it's just a snapshot at this moment when they measure.
Ich mag deinen Humor.🤣 obwohl ich der der Unklarheit nicht lachen könnte.. Ich hatte das ganz ähnlich 2019 bereits durch.. Aber die Zellen halten bis heute.. Und sind weit über 80 Prozent bei fast 3000 Zyklen.. Wobei die damals nur 3000 Zyklen halten sollten.. Is bestimmt die gute Pflege.. Und ich hab eine mit nem Loch... Das hatte ich gleich zu Anfang geflickt.. Selbst die arbeitet noch...
One day you will get a high amp testing device I hope, then you will see under high amps near 1 C why these fail, the true quality / life of these cells appear much later in life when they are not certified by the manufacturer. Capacity testing only shows half the picture, but many people put all the eggs into this metric while ignoring others.
Very few, if any solar installations run at 1C, or even get close. I've run what I know are 'grade B' (whatever that means) cells for the last three years 24/7 now without any issues. Add in the energy prices we're seeing now and they've already paid for themselves.
@@upnorthandpersonal Your comments are wreckless and naïve, there are just as many people having issues with these reject products (many never know because they never test...), having sold close to 2000 kits we have first hand experience when customers are disappointed. There is a reason why 99% of the Ali market is selling grade B because they make 3x the profit from this auctioned off stock. It is a gamble, and there is no guarantee what you will get in terms of capacity, discharge, or life will meet a certain standard. Customers who buy these cells are never told about this, they find out later, for you that is perfectly acceptable. It SHOULD NOT BE.
@@upnorthandpersonal Agreed. You need very high loads with a small storage system to run at high C ratings. My household backup system would be lucky to EVER discharge (or charge) at more than 0.35C, and most of the time even less.
I don't think we are buying these batteries to drain them with anything like 1C ever. I hardly ever get 0.2C in and out of my banks. And the more banks I add, the lower the C rating will be. But it's good that people have the choice and can spend more money on certified cells or get the cheaper storage grade cells from Ali.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Well here is my perspective, if you pick and choose the test you wish to do and ignore the rest then why bother testing at all. The load test is the number 1 test for testing for internal cell damage to see if it can meet the 1/2C rating. Cells that fail this will have accelerated aging, they don’t hold voltage, are harder to balance and WILL NOT meet the spec sheet in terms of cycle life, UL certifications, and safety prerequisites. IT IS A GAMBLE ON WHAT YOUR WILL GET. Most people that are using these cells are building 12v batteries, this is by far the most used application, also they are using 150-200 AMP BMS units so they are seeing 150 amp loads (.5c) at which point the BMS triggers LVC due to poor quality. I understand low C setups with large banks can mask this problem, but I”m not sure why people are using lithium for this. Lead Acid banks at low discharges work very well, it's actually common to see 50KW banks last for over 15 years with basic maintenance and telecoms and data centers have been doing this for decades. You also don’t have to worry about BMS issues, or balancing or anything else as lead acid will self balance, is cheap, no chance of fire. You will be cheaper with lead acid even compared to grade B prices. I will end on, Yes grade B does have a place in the market, but what does NOT is the fraud Alibaba/express sellers do and actively LIE claiming these cells are grade A++ all the while putting on fake QR codes and other fraudulent tactics. No one should be supporting this fraud, sellers should state what these products are and let customers decide if they want to buy Grade B or pay the extra for grade A. This is not a matter of whether or not Grade A is worth it, it's a matter of disclosing information so buyers can make a decision for themselves instead of being lied to.
Starting to think A-cells get automatically graded down depending on time of day they’re manufactured, and or minutes around the last start or stop of machines on a line 🧐
@@Stefan_Dahn I’m guessing, a large customer can observe the manufacturing process in detail over some months, do their own QA testing and plot the results against their observation data. That kind of insight could help to improve the manufacture process, but could also help predict when other lower results would occur that are unable to be improved, which I’m still guessing could make financial sense to grade down and/or quickly sell through a secondary market 😁
Mmm....you have me thinking I have to peel back the cover on all my cels.......yet yours seem to come up OK. I wouldnt be at all surprised if they are in fact fine. Maybe they are not Hithium.....but cells have become more or less a commodity item these days. I have three cells from four different manufacuturers: EVE, CATL, Hithium....and one other. Strangely the Hithium exceed the spec by a greater margin than either EVE or CATL. Interestingly I note they claim 10,000 cycles for the Hithium......tho i was skeptical. If I get the std 6000 I will be happy. The Hithium cells I recently got all had a 'genuine' QR code....... I have an interesting sheet comparing all the cells avaialble to a distributor I use in China. I cant attach it here tho would be inteersted in fwding if you are at all interested.
You should tell them you're trying to give them publicity. They might be more inclined to give you useful information for your large audience if they know you're trying to help them, not hurt them.
I did that and they wanted to support me. Then they sent an NDA and another company form to fill out. I told them the info will be on UA-cam so an NDA is contradicting that...
I just installed a lithium battery in my caravan. I did about 100 hours of research and joined groups to make sure I didn't stuff it up. I received no answer because of so many controller I found you and all my doubts were put to rest. Thank you very much.
Thanks a lot for your feedback. Very kind of you. Any questions, post them under the videos...
Thanks Andy, it’s always great to see another video like this from you, (and as always, love the humour, 👍).
I also trust you’ll get back to us when you have fully charged and discharged the new cells 10,000 times. I suspect that will take you twenty or likely even more years, so hope I live long enough to see the results, will certainly look forward to that. Cheers😊
C'ya in 20 years, Dave 😂
What a fantastic content and great narrator and this awesome manner of providing info!
One of the best channels on UA-cam, Andy you are amazing, your video is extremely informative and entertaining at the same time. God speed.
Hi Andy! Nice to see you again!
I've just get mine battery delivery, 30Ah LifePo4 96 cells from alliexpress. And then started mine nightmare... I started to test them and... tested 6, the tester has failed. ZKE EBC-A20. I can do any settings, it remember all, but on testing screen there are only zeroes. The tester does not see connected battery - voltage 0. The second problem is that every tested cells has 22-25Ah only. What a great day!!!
Never buy batteries from AliExpress. Always use Alibaba!
What do you do now?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Now I'm thinking what to do. I think I'll open a dispute through aliexpress and see what happens.
I have to buy a new tester also.
@@michao6495 try to contact the seller first to work things out before opening a dispute.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia You thing so? OK, I'll try. But I thing, they know what they sell. Cells supposed to be a GRADE A, but looks terrible.
you should calculate the energy efficiency of charge discharge. The capacity is not the same. The voltage is higher on charge then discharge. You should multiply the V*I then integrate for up and down.
Great Video!
Andy, I have been importing these cells for a while now to South Africa, and have the following conclusion:
There are only 4-5 (real) manufacturers of prismatic LiFePO4 cells in China, they are:
EVE,
LiShen, (Lichen)
CATL ( China Aviation Lithium Battery Co ltd),
BYD
And then also Samsung/Panasonic/LG; but you will not find the prismatic cells easily.
These manufacturers generally sell to other large manufacturers mainly EV,s and larger commercial entities.
The cells that does not meet the cut in required standard/specification generally ends up for auction in China and multiple companies buy these cells up, weld studs on, re-wrap and re-qrcode these cells. The biggest issue is consistency of product but it is possible to buy 360-1600 of these cells from the re-sellers that came from the same manufacturer as well as same production batch.
If you buy smaller quantities (below 10 000 units) you will not be able to buy directly from the manufacturer in most cases.
One of the reasons for the new qr-code is because the original manufacturer insists this is done, EVE for example since February 2022 only allowed there cells (so called rejected cells) to be sold on if it had a "B" in the serial number.
P.s. there have recently entered a few more manufacturers in China like OptimumNano, Wanxiang A123, Guoxuan, WINA and JB Battery.
The cells that is sold like what you buy from Alibaba and AliExpress are never directly from manufacturers but more likely bought on auction, re-wraped, re-qrcode, via re-sellers.
They are from experience 87.4% of the time reasonable cells and will give rated capacity and give you many cycles 3600-6000( chemistry department not manufacturer)
The secret is the find a re-sellers that can consistently provide Quality cells. I have only been able to fined three of these.
Sorry for spelling mistakes.... autocorrect
@@joulessolar8082 : Can you share the names of good re-sellers, you have mentioned? Is Gobelpower one of them?
Thanks for sharing. Yeah, I made 1-2 videos about this problem on my channel as well. The main problem is still that the reseller's honesty does not match the expectations of the buyers. As long as they can make seme $$$, they will keep doing it.
@@joulessolar8082 do you have a website, needs cells in ZA, tx
CATL and CALB are two different companies.
Very nice to see the flat discharge curve , you hear about it but until you actually see it in action it makes it all the more clear.
I'm still receiving lots of comments and emails from people who think their cells are bad because the voltage does not increase after a day of charging. It took me a while as well, to understand how LFP works.
Another great vid & info Andy & reconfirms my thoughts that buying Lifepo4 cells from China is a hit and miss game , but finding a good supplier helps increase our chances of receiving better cells more often.
Thanks for ur efforts. Cheers
I probably get some more to ensure, they are 'really fake' 😂
Ideally you want a cell tested by a third party safety agency against UL1642 and IEC 62133. Its a voluntary requirement here in the U.S. where importance of safety is in the eye of the beholder. Thank you sir for yet another stellar video!
Gott sei Dank.
Freitag abend Programm ist gerettet.
Exactly ! 😂
Genau!
Cheers, Renee
Prost.
Dachte ich mir, Freitag Abend ist doch sonst nix los...
Prototype battery probably! Nice work.
Great catch on the hidden code underneath. Maybe they are just rewrapping some other manufacturer's cells. The sudden stop of communication is a bit concerning. They should at least have answers to your questions.
The communication with them is my biggest concern. If it would not be their cell, they could have denied that right away and point out some features and differences. But not responding is very suspicious.
Very interesting video! That's why you're the best and we are here! 😉
The Chinese apparently keep manipulating cells and sell them with their own specs.
I thought the grade A and B got a bit more clear after your videos from last year and the B in the qr codes. But apparently it's not. Nice work Andy!
Thanks a lot, Martin. We know that EVE engraves a B on top of the barcode to let everyone know the cell did not meet the specifications but do other manufacturers do this as well? Obviously not.
Again, I still think these are great cells for our solar storage projects.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Agree, really nice cells for storage. No A grade but a fine "storage grade" battery.
i love your videos and the extreme testing you do! i was watching your active balancer videos and thought of a test for you:
mix a small capacity cell into a large capacity 12v or vise versa with several active balancers working together, enough to handle the full charge current.
this test will confirm if it is possible to get all the capacity out of every cell.
maybe 50A worth of balancers while charging at 40A
The balancers will only ever deliver a high balance current if there is enough voltage delta.
Also, we have tested and discussed this a while back with the Batterie1.0 and the low capacity cell 6, 7 and 8 in this pack. Active balancers running all the time won't help and put even more stress onto the weak cell because it gets this constant additional charge at the bottom and top. The gain was minimal though.
Thanks Andy amazing video I couldn't take my eyes away. Very entertaining 👏
Thanks Luke. I need to keep up the tension on the topic.
Thank you for bringing light Info the darkness and yes, you're super!
Thanks a lot, Dirk!
Thanks, Andy. Here’s what I think. “There are liars, damn liars, and Chinese battery companies.” I think these are grade B cells which were relabeled due to some fault. I’ve been thinking about building a battery pack for a while but buying cells from China has always scared me off. It seems that almost no one receives grade A cells!
Cheaper to just buy a battery pack from fogstar 🇬🇧, not worth the time and effort to make one yourself .
But then you have to pay 5X more to get genuine grade A cells that are unused from other than china. In the end cost/wh/years are what matters.
Love this channel… Great Insite into batteries for us beginners
Thank you, appreciate your feedback.
great video. at 19:18 the spec says charge/ discharge at 0.5P (not C), i guess they mean at 280Ax3.2V x 0.5 leading to 448W constant power, thus it might be possible to test the cells at about 140A 6 cycles per day, thus instead of 27years someone could test the claim in 6.5 years. but bogus barcodes make one suspect that the products are not accounted for and thus no warranty claims are likely heeded by anyone (infamous tailgate warranty)
They are definitely not genuine Hithium cells. I have warranty on them with my supplier, not with whoever manufactured them. If this will be upheld, I don't know.
Thanks for the Details & ongoing Lessons. Claim of 10000 cycle life and new chemistry sounds very interesting and attractive, but those two bar codes look very fishy, iffy, & like a red flags for possible BS scam to me. Glad you are investigating, testing, and feeding our curiousities about ongoing evolution of these batteries. Thank You.
My guess is that your cells may not have met Hithium's manufacturing/performance standards in some way & Hithium didn't want to deal whatever the issue was, so they discounted them & sold them in bulk to a reseller, who added some value to them before relabeling them & selling them to you.
That's what usually happens...
Agree 100%
Agreed, that would be my guess too...
@James Karrie drilling and tapping for studs.
Backdoor job in the small hours, an earner for the factory manager.
My experience with QSO is they are polite and helpful, but not 100% honest. I think I got some good cells in the beginning when I flashed the "Andy sent me", but when I started asking too many questions I got the "hey look over there" typical diversion responses and had to move on from them. It would be great if someone would sell automotive grade Eve cells directly to the public in batches of 16 for those who don't mind paying for top shelf items backed by an honest and reliable company.
12:50 These are not charging losses. Rather they are tolerances in measuring current and time in your tester. Only if you look at the energy (instead of capacity), there would also be heat losses in the measured values.
Correct.
Another Great Video Andy. I might check these Cells out. Thank you
Thanks, I think I will order some more as well. Seems like a good deal.
It looks like a matter of honesty about the product being sold. I've been reading about B grade cells being sold as A cell's for years.
Absolutely. I just think these resellers don't really care and just want to make money. They sell you everything.
What an interesting and very exciting video this was! Thanks for sharing your discovery with us Andy, it kept us all standing on our chairs 😍Perhaps these batteries were acquired from the original manufacturer who, for whatever reason, discarded them and revamped them by your seller?
Thanks Mauro. Most likely, they didn't meet the specifications and were auctioned off to resellers. I just don't understand the barcode logic of covering the original barcode. Could be that the manufacturer did that to hide their brand from lower quality cells on the market. I think they are still great for that price and performance.
Why you don't set 0.1A cut of ? 1A is still can be charge
Scenario #1.) China was dodging import duties into the U.S., and needed to create sketchy QR codes that will NOT scan properly in order to evade U.S. Customs?
Scenario #2.) Patrick was put in charge (+/-) of production at the Crusty Crab LiFePO4 battery plant.
Great channel with some really cool late night deep dives into lithium batteries.
Hello Andy, could you also include the environmental temperature during your testing?
I've recently received my cells and tested them at 12°C environmental temperature.
I noticed that almost none of the cells was able to pull rated capacity.
After some investigation I found out that there might be a >3% difference in capacity between the 25°C recommended testing temp and the 12°C in my testing environment.
Accounting for the 3% difference the cells would be able to pull rated capacity at the recommended testing temperature. (304 cells and they pull around 299.5-302 Ah)
Therefore I believe that including the average temperature (or a graph of the temp during the testing) could really help with the understanding of your results.
This would also help to make the testing more reproducable.
In the german Akkudoktor-Forum someone made a little "reverse engineering" on the temp-graphs shown in the EVE LF280K spec-sheet. So as a rule of thumb you could guess a capacity drop of 0,3% per degree (Celsius/Kelvin) below 25°C (it isn't that linear, but should fit). So if you test at 12°C you might roughly (very roughly) come from 299.5 to 311.65 Ah if tested at 25°C (3,9% lower capacity because of the temp).
Was that you in that forum? I also introduced this as graph of temperature adjusted capacity on my video on NKON EVE LF280K "true" Grade A cell test. I solely measured cell temperatur with an infrared thermometer in the middle of the big flat (bulgy) cell area at the beginning of the test (but i got temp logging active for my testing area - cell temperature matched the room temperature very closely and room temperature near the testing area rose by 1-2°C during testing because of the heat from the EBC-A40L).
I might try a comparative test with the next batch of cells i plan to order - one at 25°C (thinking of building a test cabin) and one at a lower temperature (maybe in my 15°C basement).
@@fldutch I also have those cells from NKON LF280K “true Grade A cell”, they are good cells but not Grade-A, Grade-A are cells that pass all tests and are sold to the industry and that’s why we do not see them, is also why Eve coded them with a B in the code and provided them with that double connection, just enjoy and use theme, anyway, that's how I think about it.😊
@@habana7638 No B on that qr-code 🤷🏻 - and the B in the code stands for LiFePO4 - 04QCB …- EVE (04Q) - Cell (C) - LFP (B) - according to EVE datasheets. Ok, dont know what the real source is, connections are normally not applied by eve and the barcode is easy to remove and re-laser engravable. Not easy to determine if it really is grade A or B.
But of course there is a reason for writing „true“ :). I do not trust anybody in the battery market. Anyway up to now they are better quality compared to my docan delivery. And the price (for me, running a business, so no VAT) is just the same as from Docan. And if sth is wrong with the cells i‘ll go and visit them in the netherlands - „just“ a 3hr drive ;).
In the end i bought from NKON and not from Gobelpower/Docan/younameit from Alibaba or directly because of possible DDP scam. As a business person i do care about not having proper tax documents and only a proforma invoice - a little scary. Buying within the EU is much more safe on that side and if prices are equal, there i go and buy at NKON.
The cells were between ~25° - 33° when testing inside the garage.
@@fldutch Same here, I have been ordering from NKON for years and they are trusted, so I was happy that I could just order them in the Netherlands, have been using them for a year now and they are fine cells, use them with an SBMS0 that only balances 150 to 200mAh and stay within the 10mV delta even with large loads, I haven't tested them because I honestly don't care, just use it and the future will tell.😄 oh and I have a JK BMS as a spare you never know, be prepared..
How long have they been in storage? What temperature and state of change were they in? (And altitude*)
In addition to what you pointed out the Hithium on drawing they do not show a post coming from the + or - cells. Send all back to QSO. Good or not, there is no verifiable information on them.
No manufacturer of cells is welding studs onto terminals (see pictures on their website). Coming from the factory, they are always flat. Always. The reseller does all that, either drills a hole or welds a stud.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia The exception is the original EVE LF280 (no n, no k). That one had holes drilled in by EVE and were specified as such in the datasheet.
Andy - how did the cost for these "10000 cycle" batteries compare with regular EVE cells?
I don't have prices for original EVE cells with certification. These were US$115ea
@@OffGridGarageAustralia So they are roughly 2/3rd of the price of an EVE cell.
And for this price they can compete with their initial performance with an EVE cell. Perhaps EVE and others are too expensive.
@@OffGridGarageAustraliaOriginal LF280K EVE cells with certification cost about USD130 sample order and USD115 bulk order.
@@neduodumbu1969 Where?
@@Stefan_Dahn Can't confirm that. The last quote I got from EVE Energy Co was US$165 per cell for 32 cells plus shipping, tax, customs.
That was 4 weeks ago.
Over 40% more than for the Hithium B grade cells. Or whatever brand that is...
if the bar code is a sticker, try to remove it, maybe underneath there is the new-new- bar code
Same thought here - but a re-re-labeled cell is really weird.
No, it's not a sticker. At the first moment it felt like on.
@@fldutch It is already a re-re-labeled cell, if there is another QR code underneath a sticker, it will be a re-re-re-labeled cell. But both is weird.
Hi!
The original Hithium cells have the QR code on the negative side, which is located at the overpressure valve, just like the EVE cells.
Nice Review Andy, considering that you did this video in 2023 Jan 20.
Would you recommend using 580w * 8pc(4640w) panels to charge this Hithium 48v 280Ah?
Also what's the max discharge rate you would recommend on this battery?
Lead acid has a 70% charge acceptance, so at over 95% charge acceptance is phenomenal, that is what I am looking most forward to with the Lithium Polymer 384 Ah 48V pack I am putting in. I want to get a cell tester some day, but atm I'll only have the JK BMS to know if they're any good
Hello
Want to ask if you advise to buy hithium 280AH for home use ? Or no.
Thank you
@OffGridGarageAustralia how are these batteries going? I'm curious to see the results after all this time. I recently had a reseller trying to sell these @$40usd per cell.
Hi Andy.
I would have one question. What to choose. Articles by Eve or Hithium?
Otherwise he sees super 5*.
Andy, you rock my friend
It's not a QR Code but rather a Data Matrix Code. Suggest try scanning with a compatible scanner or app. (QR code has the large blocks in 3 corners, Data Matrix Code identifiable by the right angle formed by the edge of 2 sides.
Hey Andy, is there any news about these cells? How has been your experience so far?
Time will tell Andy but men this is one of things that sound tooooooo good to be true at first
I thought so too. Still good cells though. I probably get some more of these...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia "good cells" thats enough you dont find them that easy 👍
Charge/Discharge tests finished on my Xiamen Hithium Energy Storage Technology (Hithium), 280Ah prismatic cells:
charged to 3.6 V @40 A I got 300 Ah when discharged to 2.5 V @40 A!
To me seems that those cells are the first testing production of their new model 300Ah prismatic cell launched at RE+ event...
What do you think?
Barcode says 280Ah. Don't know if they have 300Ah cells, nothing mentioned on their website about such a new cell...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia ANAHEIM, Calif., Sept. 23, 2022 /PRNewswire/ -- Xiamen Hithium Energy Storage Technology Co., Ltd. ("Hithium") has this week celebrated a successful launch of its newest offerings in battery product innovations at RE+ 2022 in Anaheim, USA.
As one of Hithium's latest two game-changing batteries, the newly released cutting-edge 300Ah Prismatic Cell tailored for electric energy storage is capable of achieving "zero" loss in the first 3 three years of use[1], with a long cycle life of 12,000cls and energy efficiency of 95%.
Great video, now I want to rip off the top cover of my batteries. Shrug.
Indeed, that was fun. :)
You seem to be a very smart man. I need your advice with lifepo4 cells.. So i have 8 230A cells connected in series and im trying to pull 2200 watt, it has 2C rate so the battery cells should be able to provide easily. But with a 2,5 kw continu and 5kw peak dc to ac inverter i cant pull even 1700w 🤔 How would you troubleshoot this..?
Your last statement of 1700w seems off the track, is it continues? Peak? At what SoC? Are these new cells? Lot of factors and variables, so maybe a forum would be more suitable for answer
@@abid583ind thanks for your advice I figured it out. 3,2v x 8 x 230ah should be able to provide above 10kwh with 2C which is almost 7 times the needed 1,7kw to charge my EV.. I had cheap and lose aluminium busbars which couldn't handle the load. I have 6mm2 copper wire now..
@@NasierOmran glad it worked out. Thanks for posting the solution as well, did you figure it out by yourself, any forum that you know of where we can look up these kinda issues?
It could be that they are selling test production units under a parallel sales method?
Absolutely, who knows what you get...
How could they have tested the 10000 Cycles? With 0.5C charge, 30 min rest, 0.5C discharge, 30min rest, a full cycle would need 5 hours. You can do less than 5 cycles a day. 10.000 cycles would be more than 2000 days (more than 5 years). Do they test less cycles and do some kind of prediction with the remaining capacity?
Edit: Had an error in the maths.
Yes, and test with smaller versions and extrapolate. This is part of testing called HALT (highly accelerated life testing) as well and common for these things.
Extrapolation. If the degradation mechanism is linear, it can be quite accurate.
The degradation won't be linear but you can still generate an algorithm from what you see at the beginning.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Nope, you can't calculate this by any algorithm, if you are not Jeff Dahn.
@@Stefan_Dahn With 'you' he didn't mean himself or the viewer, he obviously meant the scientists that work on these battery technologies (like Jeff Dahn and many others)...
What would be interesting would be Wh in vs Wh out as this would give cyclic efficiency.
Please try to test some LTOs if you can. The 40A cylindrical models like HAKADI LTO 2.4V 40Ah A Grade. I could not get my hands on some, maybe you can. All the best !
Interesting. From the respective websites via OGG's links:
EVE lf280K Warranty: 3months-1year
Shenzhen Qishou 10000 Life Cycles 280Ah Lipofe4: 5years
I would not hold my breath on any warranty statements of these resellers. Damaged cells are usually covered but how do you claim a cell after 4 years? Impossible to get a replacement by then...
Hi awesome video,I try this all the time basically all the cells is like this
They were 320Ah now B grade selling as new 280Ah is my guess.
is that the discharge c rating? 0.5C?
Hi andy and other fine people. i always watch your videos and i like them alot. i build a 16s battery but some of the cells have black scorth marks at the terminals. is this mayby because my connections where not good enough? i think it so strange. thanks
Have you had these marks from the beginning or have they appeared after some time?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia im not sure. but i think they came after some time.
Let the Ads run folks, to help and thank Andy.
Hahaha, yeah, thanks!
Добрый вечер. Почему вы не используете Winston battery ?
Don't know what that means...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I noticed that you are using Lifepo4 blue cans. Why not use Winston battery (yellow cans) they are much better. it seems so to me. do you have any experience of using it? what is the opinion?
Ist der von dir gefunde Barcode unter dem Label denn ein originaler?
Die sind normal gelasert oder?
Nicht dass das auch schon ein Fake Barcode ist.
Ein Barcode von EVE schaut zumindest anders aus.
Viele Grüße
Dachte erst es ist ein Aufkleber. Er sieht zumindest anders aus als der fake Barcode, der sichtbar war. Wer weiss das schon...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Hast du da nochmal genau drauf geschaut ob das ein Aufkleber ist? Würd mich interessieren.
Vg
Hi Andy, how much does it cost you to import 4 of those cells.
Charging with constant voltage ? why ?
I really enjoy your work, learned so much.. Quesiton, I have a quesiton, I have 3 150ah Lifepo4 iron Phos battery a neighbor just got a Dawnice DW-PW15ESS-LV, 280 ah battery. Why is he needing not able go below 49.5 volts and SOC is 7%, and as for Stop discharge not able to go lower than 54v setting on the controller for the Battery.. using CAN com with the controller.. and at 52.51v and cells are at 3.282 and SOC is 39.55%.. Yet my LifePo at cells 3.34 I will be at 98% and fully charged and soaking at 3.40 cell. I nee help to understand his battery, unless it is a ION/ Li-Ion battery. is the only way I can see it. Help I'm drowning in Cells, lol
great video! were they cheap? including shipping? Just looking at the shrink wrap, it seems that the Hithium brand was "added" with a sticker - still were you scammed? not sure. But you likely didn't get a Grade A cell.
Hi Andy, and thank you again for this video,👍 particularly interesting!!
It's always the same thing, reject battery or used battery, and buy them at auction, by resellers, who solder new terminals,
redo the packing and put their own QR code which does not correspond to anything (or certainly just to reference their stock)
So again, not sure what to buy? and my opinion, they are bad battery or already used, because if they were good, the Manufacturer would sell them himself and not sell them at auction. Normally the manufacturer erases the bar code, or asks that it be concealed.
Because they don't want to hear about these battery anymore.
Wanting to believe that these battery are of good quality is a mistake.
And announced 10,000 cycles!!! these Chinese dealers really take people for idiots.
For a Cycle per day that represents more than 25 years!!!
If you ask the reseller to guarantee them for only 5 years, he will refuse, or if he accepts, in 5 years this reseller will no longer exist, and or will have changed his name.
My opinion, to buy quality battery you have to buy them directly from the manufacturer, unfortunately they are much more expensive and that's normal, and also often they ask for a large MOQ.
For a use, energy storage, we can think, that these battery resold, by resellers, will be able to satisfy us, but unfortunately I doubt it. It is in the long term by aging that the problems will arrive.
In any case, Andy, thank you again, for spending so much time for these tests, and for sharing it with us,👍😁
it's important to remember, that we find everything and anything in this lithium market cells, and that the Chinese resellers, get rich, without worrying about the buyer, their goal is to sell and that's it.
Liebe Grüße aus Wien Andy, vielen Dank für ein weiteres schönes Video. Für eine Abendgesellschaft würden Sie Glühwein schätzen, Andy :)
23:47 look at the ring there is 2 - up and down and same on the black ring you can see 2 + :)
That suspense! 😲😲😲👏👏👏
Hahaha.
I was also interested in buying such cells and the seller claimed Hithium is a CATL company. Don't know if this is true anyway.
Based on the methodology described within the spec sheet (0,5C charge + discharge + 2x 30 minute rest for one cycle), the 10 000 cycle test for this battery cell should take 10 000 * ( 2h + 0,5h + 2h +0,5h) = 50 000 hours. This means almost 6 years of testng. Was this battery cell put on the market 6 years ago? If not, this would be proof the seller is not serious.
Well, no manufacturer tests their cells like this. They do maybe a few months and then extrapolate the data. Do some more testing in heat and cold and with the data gained, they got a good idea how this chemistry will perform over time. EVE, CATL, Panasonic... they all do it that way. Nobody is waiting for 4 years before they bring out a new battery chemistry.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Not just with batteries. Any product that lasts for years like this is tested in a highly accelerated life tests (HALT) and data is always extrapolated. You wouldn't be able to do R&D to get to a product otherwise.
@@upnorthandpersonalyes, the same with solar panels life
Well at least my community post comment was valid "looks repackaged" or something.
I reckon someone bought a pallet of grade B/storage and then has selling them on - and did a small attempt to hide the original code.
And don't expect an issue with them in use, or any major internal differences to the Eve - probably just a clone to up production numbers in China, but marketed with the 70% @10k cycles to try and differentiate them
Yeah, you could be right. Not that I'm surprised with all of that, but I really wanted to know who is doing the shit-part in this whole transformation of these cells. But even the original QR didn't scan correctly and back in March last year, these cells were actually not on the market yet.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Probably because the author of the app doesn't know Hithium cells - they are a newer company, and I've also never seen 280Ah cells from them.
Hallo Andy, wie bist du zufrieden mit den USB Aufsätzen für die 18V Akkus? (Anfangsszene im Video) Grüße aus Niederbayern 🖖
Das sind die Lader, die bei den Akkus dabei waren.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Danke für die Info!
i think hithium is just typical LFP cell being tested at 70% depletion to get 10k cycle.
new number, new wow in the market.
No, they are tested at 100% DoD as mentioned in their specs. Link to that document is under the video.
The second hidden bar code said 2022, they were swollen, and the spec for internal resistance is 0.18 milliohms +/- (vs) 0.24 milliohms measured... Something smells not right.. A grade... It should be up to the manufacturer to prove that..
You are smart that you noticed that changing the location of the barcode means something...
Great capacity
I think they are great cells for a good price... so why not?
25:49 I’m almost going to report your channel, thank God you correct it in time so I’m now continue to watch happily
It's like we wanna buy iPhone 15 but our cash is only enough for vivo x90 with almost the same functions and features.
The production date on the cell is different.
On the hidden barcode 03/2022
Printed on the cell 12/2022
Yeah, which one is correct???
Sorry guys.. If you charge with 0.5C and charge again 0.5C you need 4 hours. Multiplied by 6000 or 10000.... My year has only 8760 hours = 2190 4 hour cycles.... So the manufacturer did 3-5 years product testing bevore sales???
Thank you
Thats a prototype cells of hithium, produced for the purpose of testing the quality of the product. Hithium has a good quality cell.
So .5 C with 1/2 hour rest period is about 5 hours per cycle. 10,000 cycles would be almost 6 years. Hard to believe cells had been tested for 6 years.
They don't test the 6000 cycles for batteries that way either. It would take them several years to test just to find out something needs to change😂
With all of these lithium figures, other than the alternator voltage which can be changed, why do people recommend NOT using a lithium battery for a car/truck battery replacement?
Don
I've always thought the test specs for LIFEpo4 cells are weird, and I doubt that the manufacturer are actually performing them.
For instance:
What is the C (charge/discharge) value according to? Is it:
a). According to the actual cell capacity (given by last cycle)?
or
b). According to the cell specified capacity?
But most evident:
If a test was to be performed according to these specifications, it will take like 5.7 YEARS to complete. Ok, a little less since the capacity is fading over time. (Also, constant power is to be used in this case (not constant current) which is really weird. C-ratio is always related to current.) Using constant power will change the time of the test in some way, but who knows which way and how much. Anyway, it is not much time difference in the whole.
The math is simple:
One charge/discharge cycle at 0.5C will take 4 hours (2 hours charge, 2 hours discharge). To that add 2*30 minutes of shelving. That's 5 HOURS PER CYCLE. 10000 cycles is 50000 hours. 50000 hours is 5.7 YEARS.
Do we honestly believe the manufacturer have had a final product sitting on the bench for this long BEFORE it was released? No! Never!
I think all "capacity tests" are just a modelling. They might test over some days or weeks and model the rest of the behaviour according to the expected behaviour of the chemical composition.
Please advice me if I'm not understand this correctly, or if I'm doing some erroneous thinking...
No manufacturer is testing batteries for 5 years +.
They test for a few months in different climates and extrapolate the data. That's not just for batteries, but for almost all other devices, materials and items as well...
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Makes sense and is in line with my comment/thoughts. You obviously know this for a fact (?!) and might want to highlight this in one of your videos considering the amount of followers you have
@@Mr.X3D I thought this is common knowledge how product testing works.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia To me, that’s just an arrogant statement, but still, I might be uneducated or just plain stupid. 🤷🏼♂️
Or they grind down the original QR codes and laser new ones on it... you can see it nicely when you look at the background of the QR and the rest of the cup from the lid.
That does not look like it, on these cells. I have seen pictures when they do that, it is quite obvious.
Well done Sherlock ! André in Sydney
Thanks. It's a stressful time doing such research and testing 😊
Great video.
First time I hear that internal resistance could vary during transport. :)
Temperature is a factor which is obvious. SOC as well...
Voltage and Ri matched is such a marketing argument. Unless they test them at different temperatures and also different SOC and then match... but, nah, it's just a snapshot at this moment when they measure.
That was the biggest Cliffhanger in Austrian History, sie Schelm sie!
Hahaha, I had to build up the tension!
Thank you...
You're welcome!
@@OffGridGarageAustralia you know me LOL
@@jogi_54 I do😉
Ich mag deinen Humor.🤣 obwohl ich der der Unklarheit nicht lachen könnte.. Ich hatte das ganz ähnlich 2019 bereits durch.. Aber die Zellen halten bis heute.. Und sind weit über 80 Prozent bei fast 3000 Zyklen.. Wobei die damals nur 3000 Zyklen halten sollten.. Is bestimmt die gute Pflege.. Und ich hab eine mit nem Loch... Das hatte ich gleich zu Anfang geflickt.. Selbst die arbeitet noch...
Denke auch, man kann mit diese Zellen nichts verkehrt machen.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia ab und zu mal ein Auge drauf werfen..
If that is a sticker, maybe there is a third barcode hiding underneath
It's not a sticker. It felt like one at the beginning.
Yes
One day you will get a high amp testing device I hope, then you will see under high amps near 1 C why these fail, the true quality / life of these cells appear much later in life when they are not certified by the manufacturer. Capacity testing only shows half the picture, but many people put all the eggs into this metric while ignoring others.
Very few, if any solar installations run at 1C, or even get close. I've run what I know are 'grade B' (whatever that means) cells for the last three years 24/7 now without any issues. Add in the energy prices we're seeing now and they've already paid for themselves.
@@upnorthandpersonal Your comments are wreckless and naïve, there are just as many people having issues with these reject products (many never know because they never test...), having sold close to 2000 kits we have first hand experience when customers are disappointed. There is a reason why 99% of the Ali market is selling grade B because they make 3x the profit from this auctioned off stock. It is a gamble, and there is no guarantee what you will get in terms of capacity, discharge, or life will meet a certain standard.
Customers who buy these cells are never told about this, they find out later, for you that is perfectly acceptable. It SHOULD NOT BE.
@@upnorthandpersonal Agreed. You need very high loads with a small storage system to run at high C ratings.
My household backup system would be lucky to EVER discharge (or charge) at more than 0.35C, and most of the time even less.
I don't think we are buying these batteries to drain them with anything like 1C ever. I hardly ever get 0.2C in and out of my banks. And the more banks I add, the lower the C rating will be.
But it's good that people have the choice and can spend more money on certified cells or get the cheaper storage grade cells from Ali.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Well here is my perspective, if you pick and choose the test you wish to do and ignore the rest then why bother testing at all. The load test is the number 1 test for testing for internal cell damage to see if it can meet the 1/2C rating. Cells that fail this will have accelerated aging, they don’t hold voltage, are harder to balance and WILL NOT meet the spec sheet in terms of cycle life, UL certifications, and safety prerequisites. IT IS A GAMBLE ON WHAT YOUR WILL GET.
Most people that are using these cells are building 12v batteries, this is by far the most used application, also they are using 150-200 AMP BMS units so they are seeing 150 amp loads (.5c) at which point the BMS triggers LVC due to poor quality.
I understand low C setups with large banks can mask this problem, but I”m not sure why people are using lithium for this. Lead Acid banks at low discharges work very well, it's actually common to see 50KW banks last for over 15 years with basic maintenance and telecoms and data centers have been doing this for decades. You also don’t have to worry about BMS issues, or balancing or anything else as lead acid will self balance, is cheap, no chance of fire. You will be cheaper with lead acid even compared to grade B prices.
I will end on, Yes grade B does have a place in the market, but what does NOT is the fraud Alibaba/express sellers do and actively LIE claiming these cells are grade A++ all the while putting on fake QR codes and other fraudulent tactics. No one should be supporting this fraud, sellers should state what these products are and let customers decide if they want to buy Grade B or pay the extra for grade A. This is not a matter of whether or not Grade A is worth it, it's a matter of disclosing information so buyers can make a decision for themselves instead of being lied to.
thx! ,und Danke :)
stay safe :)
Dir auch!
Stay charged!
Starting to think A-cells get automatically graded down depending on time of day they’re manufactured, and or minutes around the last start or stop of machines on a line 🧐
Why? And what is the ending of your thinking?
@@Stefan_Dahn I’m guessing, a large customer can observe the manufacturing process in detail over some months, do their own QA testing and plot the results against their observation data. That kind of insight could help to improve the manufacture process, but could also help predict when other lower results would occur that are unable to be improved, which I’m still guessing could make financial sense to grade down and/or quickly sell through a secondary market 😁
Mmm....you have me thinking I have to peel back the cover on all my cels.......yet yours seem to come up OK.
I wouldnt be at all surprised if they are in fact fine. Maybe they are not Hithium.....but cells have become more or less a commodity item these days. I have three cells from four different manufacuturers: EVE, CATL, Hithium....and one other. Strangely the Hithium exceed the spec by a greater margin than either EVE or CATL. Interestingly I note they claim 10,000 cycles for the Hithium......tho i was skeptical. If I get the std 6000 I will be happy. The Hithium cells I recently got all had a 'genuine' QR code.......
I have an interesting sheet comparing all the cells avaialble to a distributor I use in China. I cant attach it here tho would be inteersted in fwding if you are at all interested.
You should tell them you're trying to give them publicity. They might be more inclined to give you useful information for your large audience if they know you're trying to help them, not hurt them.
I did that and they wanted to support me. Then they sent an NDA and another company form to fill out. I told them the info will be on UA-cam so an NDA is contradicting that...
Heya, well that is suspices for sure
I like your video very much.