Is It Wrong to Enjoy Problematic Media?
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- Recent conversations have been sparked about Made in Abyss, particularly, is it wrong to enjoy problematic media? What even makes media problematic? Is it pronouns? Is it SJWs? Let's talk about it.
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This is how I see the "problematic content discussion":
If you are capable of acknowledging that something's problematic, understand why it's problematic, and know that you shouldn't replicate it in real life, than consume whatever media you like.
However, if you refuse to acknowledge its problematic, defend or dismiss it, or act belligerent or ignorant when confronted about it, then you're just as problematic as the content you consume and you need to fix that.
would defending stuff only for the show count as problematic? not defending irl
I guesd were getting into the watchmen problem. Remember how many people identified with Rorschach despite him being objectively terrible?
@@RenderingUser I'm assuming you're talking about defending problematic behavior/content in terms of the context of the story. If so, again, it depends on whether you still acknowledge understand, and recognize the content as problematic but would like to acknowledge some positives in it or it simply doesn't bother you, or whether you are defending it because you don't think/want it to be seen as problematic because that "makes you look bad," when in actuality if you had just acknowledge it from the start most people wouldn't care.
@@kap1618 True, and a lot of people identify with Dabi from MHA or idolize Rick from Rick and Morty. And while I don't think its necessarily wrong to find positive traits in these characters or see some of yourself in them, we again circle back to said people not being able to or wanting to recognize the toxic traits in these characters, probably because they do "see themselves" in them and feeling "attacked" when people point out the negatives in their characters.
@@Rereader32 alr.
My concern with the problematic media discourses is that it assumes that not consuming it is a moral good. You can't consume your way into being a good person, you actually have to be good.
Indeed. It's pure virtue signaling, which is just the lazy person's way of pretending to be virtuous, without actually having to do virtuous things.
@@thenew4559 Yes. The act of not watching things due to problematic aspects on the left is the same as the idea of not watching things because of wokeness on the right. Both are garbage.
Aint even allowed to have an opinion in this society anymore...
U crying now?
@@MarianaBello-fq3hx yep
@@dvanepope5602 An excellent example of strong masculinity if I've ever seen one. The strength to say what you believe, and the courage to express your emotions unashamedly and with grace!
There's no such thing as problematic art. Everything is valid and should be allowed to talk about. There are only problematic people. Just like how violent video games don't cause school shootings, stories with pedophilia aren't going to make a person a pedophile. All it will do is give a person who is already a pedophile a story they can relate to. Art does have an impact on us, but in the end, we decide what we do.
"Problematic art" boils down to: "Decisions too difficult. Pretty picture tell me what to do. It was picture that made me do ot!" Random onlooker: "This magic square with lines on it committed an atrocity!"
True
Weirdo ass take
So people that make art catering to pedophiles are fine?
They also got flack for talking about Berserk which is even more dark and screwed up yet it’s one of the best stories ever made. You can’t take these idiots seriously.
i feel like the main problem was how casca was depicted vs guts sexual assault, but miura has apologized for that and nobody seriously accepted any weird pro-rape narrative ("casca enjoyed it") until new people came along.
it's annoying bc berserk is a really good series and have avoided dumb discussions until now -_-
@@pingutune I interpret it as conflicting emotions for her. Simultaneously:
1. She is assaulted by the person she loved and was devoted to her whole life
2. The assault- something he's saved her from and a key moment in her life
3. Being used as a tool- something she's treated herself as for his sake
To make things worse he's only assaulting her to get back at the guy he actually has feelings for
It should have been depicted worse, I agree- but I still think the context and result speak enough for what that actually did to her.
@@pingutune both berserk and MIA are great stories and yet people are that soft they couldn’t handle someone liking a dark series. And it’s not like the bad things that happened are glorified but you know twitter, taking things way out of proportion.
@@jeffali5157 the issue of made in abyss was that it was glorified. it was never just abt it being a dark series, the main talking points was misogyny and pedophilia. i agree that it was taken out of proportion but thats not what was being argued.
@@pingutune those issues were not glorified in the anime, they showed it in a very screwed up and dark way. Plus while I agree they did mostly talk about the 2 topics in MIA, these idiots are acting like it hasn’t been shown before in other series so why this specifically are people that riled up over?
Tl;dr - To proclaim something to be “problematic” and enforce it in a consistent and meaningful fashion, requires a metric that cannot exist. So basically, just let ppl enjoy what they enjoy.
I think the main problem is that “problematic media” is too fluid of a concept to be applied or enforced in any real way. What is considered problematic to some will not be to others. A hundred years from now, things we find to be completely socially acceptable will be unthinkable. And then there are people who will attack said media even if it doesn’t endorse the given “problematic” topic. Just talking about it is reason enough for many to call for those who enjoy it to cease their support of the art it manifests in. Then there are those who feed off of negativity and will ride any bandwagon to cancel art they have no prior knowledge of, simply taking the words of others instead of doing their due diligence and confirming their claims. If there were some reasonable metric to calculate what is problematic and what isn’t, then maybe it would be okay to criticize those who enjoy that media. But such a metric will never exist, and therefore, we cannot dictate what people are allowed to enjoy. Of course, we can pick and choose what we support based on our own personal subjective metrics, but to push that onto others would be immoral.
(I apologize for the paragraph 😂)
Precisely. Who gets to decide what is "problematic"? The idea that someone else's morals should be upheld as the moral standard for another person is, generally, insane.
Acknowledging "hey this is not a good thing to glorify irl" while still enjoying the fictional story is, like, normal and mentally healthy.
Celebrating the death of a monstrous character (like IDK Frieza) is not the same as actually killing someone irl.
This should be elementary.
exactly. Also, the most gruesome scene in season 1 (bondrewds little twin experiment thing), is actively portrayed not only as tragic but is actively used to establish Bondrewd as a deplorable piece of shit
Love how you referred to Made In Abyss as various things such as Made In Epstein's Island
The burrito dog himself loves my comment, I see.
Made in abyss is great! There are some weird stuff here and there but I had no trouble ignoring it. Some of the weird stuff should be removed from the story, because it's just not necessary and could be replaced by something else for the same effect
Is disturbing to think that I began watching this anime when I was like 13 with my 9 year old brother. Thank god we stopped at ep2.
But now that i think about it, its so weird that an anime like this was aviable in Netflix without any kind of advise that would warn that it contained some gross shit, it even had a goddamn videogame dear god.
isn't the show about a wacky adventure of a girl, robot and a cute little bunny dude going down a hole filled with unearthly monsters and gorgeous scenery, all accompanied by stunning visuals and simply put beautiful music???
Yes but atleast in the manga(because I've never seen the anime):
The first 2 chapters displayed the MC in naked bondage and it was on full display(uncensored),in the context of the scene it was a form of punishment and is consistently implied throughout
There are also some sexual jokes or skits that make you wanna tug your collar a bit like the MC openly speaking about her "examination" of the robot and about the fact that she attempted to probe him with a ruler and whether the robot is capable of getting erect.There's more scenes like this,I personally wouldn't say I'm disgusted by it but I understand why some people would not recommend it,including myself
It is. But it also includes extremely graphic body horror and several different situations with extreme psychological horror. I've watched and reviewed season one. I liked it a lot. But it's not for everyone, and definitely not for little kids, for example. Selective media consumption is a responsibility for the individual.
Really enjoyed that you referred to all of those k-pop idols as "some guys" (I think that's what you said they were but they weren't really important to the thesis so I forgor). Anyway, good vid as always. I dig this style of presentation, keep it up!
havent seen u in the discord in ages. hope things are going well
@@AsarathaHSYT I moved earlier this month, so I'm taking a bit of personal time while I'm still getting used to the new locale. I'll be back soon, thanks for checking in!
no because mia peak goat raw fire
Tsuk spotted! 😶
@@dvanepope5602 Who is this yapper. I don't smell a hint of silliness. You may leave.
short answer: no
long answer: also no
Made in abyss terrifies me and i love that about it
BTW, TXT made the 12th opening of Black Clover
I have watched Made and Abyss and really enjoyed the worldbuilding, the characters (in season 2, anyway), and the amazing soundtrack. One thing I really disliked, though, was how to comedy was always very...strange. Characters like the main female protagonist would constantly be made fun of for "peeing herself" and she would very regularly being up the main male protagonists "penis". Two scenes that are unnecessary and overtly pedophelic involve, again, the main female character 1. Being strung up naked, and 2. nearly being gang raped in an alleyway.
This is all made stranger when you remember these characters are 12 years old, and the art style makes them seem much younger. Things in the manga are much worse, where you can visibly see female characters' nipples at certain points. There's even one chapter where, in an added couple of pages, the mangaka acknowledges that the characters' being portrayed in sexual ways is strange. Instead of expressing any hint that this behavior is bad or wrong, he leans into the "joke" and proceeds to draw the characters in unnecessarily sexual positions.
Unfortunately, pedophelia isn't uncommon in the industry. Nearly every series that exists sexualizes its female characters, and most characters in these series are under the legal age of consent. The only exception I can think of off the top of my head is Attack on Titan.
Joey (The Anime Man) made a video covering this topic a few days ago. I didn't necessarily disagree with any of the things he said, but I do disagree with the main point he was making. This point was essentially, "all anime and manga sexualize their characters--many of which are minors--and Made in Abyss is no different." While this is technically a correct statement, and I know he didn't mean it as "everyone does it so it's okay," it still doesn't explain why people have such an issue with MIA specifically...
The fact of the matter is that Made in Abyss *is* different than other series. The art style of MIA and the characters' mannerisms all tell you that these characters are children, then it portrays them in sexual ways. This is what separates Made in Abyss from most other series out there. While many anime portray their characters in sexual ways, and in sexual situations, MIA is one of the only ones that actively reminds you that the characters you're watching are children. This is why most people who have seen it say things like "I don't recommend watching it" or "I have mixed feelings..."
Idk why i spent so much time on this, but please let me know if you have any thoughts. If you agree, great. If you disagree, please comment. I wanna hear any perspectives any of you may have.
I think it is completely fair to find this stuff problematic and not wanting or liking to watch a show because of it, I don't think he is arguing against that, I think what he is explaining is that it is fine if you do enjoy stuff that problematic as long as you don't try justifying as it being fine or acceptable and that art like that have a right to exist...... I think that his point
How did I not know about K-pop slave contracts?
Good video
I've only seen the first season of MiA, but from that much I'll say I've seen no goonery, and the claims I've seen against it are similar to Csm in many ways.
I won't go much more into it however as I'm doubtful you'll watch it regardless and that fact has no impact on my life lol, keep up the good work
2:55 I imagine that in a conversation these children would say this word for word,
and exactly like this lmao
love your content
I like you man, though I will state that I personally disagree with the directions modern progressives handle problems. I do agree with that problematic media brings great conversations with people who are genuinely media literate enough to understand Dogville, Warhammer 40k, etc. I am a free market enjoyer and hold the view that governments cause slavery and that corporations can only exist with government regulations.
I have to say, Made in Abyss is one of the greatest masterpieces ever made into anime, and I hope that discussions like this don't dissuade people from at least giving it a try. The artwork, the sound track, the worldbuilding, the tragedy, and the story are all consistently top-tier and virtually unmatched by anything that's come out in recent memory, it's personally in my top 2 favorite anime series of all time. Sure, there are a couple moments that are a bit questionable in the ways they portray the children sexually, but people really exaggerate it, and it's pretty mild in the anime (as the anime removes/waters down a lot of these scenes from the manga). If anything, I find the body horror and gore to be something that would be much more off-putting to your average media-consumer; so if seeing animated children involved in gory situations is something you cannot tolerate, this is the one understandable reason I'd advise against giving the show a try. It is an extremely, extremely dark show, and it doesn't pull any punches involving the pain and suffering it inflicts on the mostly child cast. It's literally about a bunch of children descending into a subterranean world that is more hellish than any description of Hell I have ever read, unpleasant things are only to be expected.
Appending this since I don't want to make the comment too long, and the most important points are all in the first comment anyways:
I would also recommend people watch the video "Made in Abyss, Eromanga Sensei, and the Biggest Problem in Anime" by the channel Explanation Point, where he argues for why the nudity in the Made in Abyss (anime) is neither gratuitous nor exploitative, and is really just another way the story presents their journey into the abyss as a metaphor for the children descending into adulthood. Of course, people will respond "but the author's clearly a lolicon", so that must mean the story is exploitative, but this is really failing to separate the art from the artist. The story itself, I contend, doesn't portray the underage characters in an immoral or exploitative way, the author's own fetishes and motives may influence what he decides to put in his work, but they are a different question. As an artist myself, I have lots of things I am interested in or believe in which I don't put in my works, or don't put in as heavily as part of me wants to. Each of our art works only represent a part of ourselves, we inevitably have to discriminate and pick the parts we wish to leave out. If the author is as bad as people claim, I'm sure a part of him wants to put full-on l01i p0*n scenes in the story, but he doesn't, both because that would make a worse story, and because editors are a thing. Now, if you can't separate the art from the artist, and believe that every work of fiction with ties to something you disapprove of should not be enjoyed, then you do you. I think that is a guaranteed way to never enjoy anything outside of the most bland, hyper-inoffensive garbage, which will never push you to think outside of your ideological box, but if you want to live by that ethical standard then I won't oppose you. I only have issue with it when people use this arbitrary ethical standard as a means to shame others and virtue signal, rather than just letting people enjoy what they want in their own way. After all, there are far more explicit depictions of child characters out there on certain sites, yet hardly anyone bothers to argue against that stuff, since it's not as out in the open. They'd rather attack the things that are right on the borderline of social acceptability, where it's far more subjective.
@@thenew4559Kinda feels like you missed the point of this video.
@@whateverwhatever4476I mean yeah, the point of this comment is that I’m not in total agreement with what’s being said, or at least with how Made in Abyss is being characterized.
Reaffirming Gyro’s membership
This is a comment for engagement ratings
his history is... suboptimal ;')
Theres 2 things to this haveing the ability to separate fiction and reality and realizing what the story is going for ( not saying you cant critize media or acsedently promoteing dangerous ideas) my favorite anime and favorite part of that anime love is war chrismas arc you could make a legitimate argument for it apolgizing and making a excuse for relationship abuse wail i think thats a blind take to what its going for i can understand it all media will have something "problematic" to someone.
Made in abussy
pretty good take tbh
Someone cooked here
Oda made Sanji
Kishimoto doesn't know how to write women
Kubo's only trans character is a fucking psycho and is victm of a very transphobic gag
Horikoshi has questionable views on racism
Isayama
let's face it, we all consume problematic media.
how is any of this bad?
@@dvanepope5602 Talk to other humans and you might find out!
Go even farther with that we can't say we have really any principle morals seeing as the majority of the luxuries we have in the modern world are made from people payed pennies by the hour, if that, under duress in sweat shops and mines like how they have in places like China.
@@decarabiaumbra560 True
I'm pretty much anime only, so when did that happen in rezero?
there are a couple of very uncomfortable jokes about actual, literal pedo characters in season 3, and an illustration in what will be season 3 is made to be a gag in something thats basically sexual assault
@@AsarathaHSYT damn, I hope they cut it out. All authors make mistakes 100%. Anime as a medium has a lot of dumb fucking jokes like this (cough cough this literally being the entirety of konosuba) Despite all this, the author seems very educated on subjects like gender, social standings, and flawed belief systems; atleast, from everything I've watched so far.
yeah, that's what makes it all the more frustrating. idk how he can cook so hard on understanding of what leads to possessive behavior over women, gender identity, etc, just to do that weird shit@@acousticco
@@siginotmylastname3969 Thank you for explaining. I'm sorry I'm asking you to write more but, could you specify what these "jokes about sexual harassment are" because in the video he originally mentions "jokes about sexual assault" both being very different things.
@@siginotmylastname3969 Thank you. My main concern out of all of this is Subaru. Subaru is my favorite character he should be condemned for his bad actions and vice versa for his good actions. Subaru is portrayed as a good, flawed person and almost everything in the story characterizes him as such but these stupid jokes slightly hinder this portrayal. (Tbh these instances are fairly harmless aside from one SCENE) The issue with these actions and the way it's written/translated is that they must be treated with the proper degree of severity of which immoral act is committed. As for Subaru's action in arc 2 the initial one I interpret it a joke told by the character, Subaru, not the author, obviously in poor taste but a joke nonetheless pointed out by Emilia and later on confirmed by a line in [8:05
Episode 10 Season 2] confirming that it was in fact a joke. To put it simply this characterizes Subaru more as an idiot kid, not a creep. This is admissible because kids his age around me have said things 1000x worse. As for the OTHER SCENE my most pressing question is, is this from the LN as you originally stated, or is this from the WN. The LN is intended to be the canon version of the story (I can omit WN arc 2 because of the horrors that I've heard about have been removed and if you make a mistake and you realize that it severely, severely hurts characterization you cut that shit out). I'm hoping that you meant the WN because that being in the final version just pisses me off, especially since stuff like fan service is extremely limited in the anime itself. From my initial interpretation again, Tappei seems extremely well-verse in this stuff, he knows how to properly input narrative punishment, but the addition of stupid anime jokes hinders that (especially a joke like that with HER stuff like that should not be included no matter what). The problem is how the author's voice carries out throughout the structure of the story. How does the writing portray X as a good action, and if should it be considered a good action in the first place, or does the author fail to address the morality of an action through author's voice (not character pov) when he absolutely needs to. The definition of morality is that it is objective and if the author's voice communicates something ignorant that is and will cause societal issues or something that is immoral as moral I really dislike it. Obviously you still have to interpret author's voice and it is possible to misunderstand something. I know this is poorly written but do you get what I'm saying? Overall, should I be worried or not? (you kinda answered this but I want to be sure)
Not watching a show bc of what people told you has got to be your biggest L take so far
This is literally how millions of people consume media every single day. I have a life and things to do. In the same vein that I might try something based on someone's suggestion, if I hear tons of things about something I probably won't enjoy, I'm not going to waste my limited free time watching it. This is actually so extremely normal
@@AsarathaHSYT that wasn't really my point, in the video you made it sound like you would'nt watch MIA bc some people told you it has problematic content, that while I will say is very weird, absolutely doesn't represent this series
That... Is exactly the point? I've seen that recent mia volume cover, and I'm not into blatantly gooner shit, especially about kids, so I'm going to avoid it and instead spend my time watching things that catch my interest more
@@AsarathaHSYT I think neither of us is getting what the other is saying so lets just agree to disagree
@@AsarathaHSYT It is not. It's a normie-tier anime for a reason. Most of them would have been filtered if so.
Saw the title and heard Mushoku Tensei fans seething
WHAT IS THAT STRIDE EMOJI😭😭😭😭😭
Dont compare MiA which is peak to that pedobait mushoku tenshit bro, or as kids say super L take, abysmal rizz tappei don't know you lil bro, sit down
Nowhere in this video did I compare the two. They were mentioned in the same sentence alongside multiple other series.
@@AsarathaHSYT i know, i just like insulting mushoku Tensei and spitting zoomerspeech
fairs
@@DrKarmoas a rezero enjoyer, i really enjoy reading you shttg on mushu pedo tensei
Decent video, you made some good points. But... I think is your weakest video by far. I have some critiques I would like share. But I'll save it for another time.
Also, I think you could make a part 2 of why the discussion happened in the first place. That's just my suggestion.
Anyways, I'll look forward to your videos. Take care!
I don't agree at all, but thanks for not explaining!
The video was all over the place. The video could have been split into like five different topics. This video felt like it tried to cover too much
i disagree
@@AsarathaHSYT That's fair. But the flow of the video was not good, and some of the arguments were pretty weak. It came off like the old idea that violent video games make people DO violent things. I know studies have been done on the issue, and the evidence points to people being more aggressive. No real causal evidence has been found in terms of actions. Also, the info points to video games being more "problematic" since the experience is more immersive.
With your logic playing any violent video game would be "bad". What you deem as "problematic" is confusing. As you point out any show can be problematic. If this is the case, why say certain shows are "bad"? At that point, any show that has someone consuming meat is "bad." There's some other stuff, but I don't want to throw a mountain at you. Thanks for the video. Interesting conversation.
I think you have completely misinterpreted my video.@@Bjjboxing
Wait until they find out about Pomf Pomf Pomf.
Probably the wrong name, but it should generally be correct. I'm referring to the 4Chan User's Anthem
I feel like the entirety of the internet goers everywhere (especially Twitter) should treat this video as required, mandatory viewing before they continue using it. It'd save us all so much time.
I think Tsukushi's perversions are outweighed by MiA's many other redeeming qualities. For example: Bondrewd and his whole arc was fantastic, he is in my top 10 villains easily. This whole controversy would be more understandable if the trigger was something like "Eromanga Sensei".
Most "problematic content" comes as a general critique of the topics they portray or ate made for a diversity of viewable art. One can be critical about any media they consume, but the way it is handled by people can be even worse than the media itself. Often with things like animation, the only things hurt in the making of it are the fictional characters depicted and the animators wrists in the worse case scenario where they are overworked. The responses of threatening others, promoting various forms of violence, and celebrating tragedies goes way beyond the point of criticism.
You know times were tough when you had to live in an upvote-shaped house.
Just the result of modern architecture. You really have to feel bad for the poor homeless people that live in down vote shaped boxes
Made in abyss could easily have been told with characters who are older but i still think its a fantastic series worth watching. Its an amazing fantasy world
Great video
This style of content is great, keep it up!
short answer: no
long answer: also no
Subscribing
W
Damn missed this