My Tech Startup Failed...

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  • Опубліковано 26 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 235

  • @TechWithTim
    @TechWithTim  Місяць тому +12

    Here's the link to a FREE resource on "How To Land a Developer Role in the World of AI" from myself and HubSpot! clickhubspot.com/ic2f

    • @nachiketnasa
      @nachiketnasa Місяць тому

      The free PDF is decent but I'm not too sure about one thing listed in "UA-cam and Other Resources". GeeksForGeeks is mentioned as one of the resources (mixed reviews, but reddit mostly hates it for inaccuracies in their content, lack of citation of other sources and forced login for no reason).

    • @danieljohnmorris
      @danieljohnmorris 29 днів тому

      I strongly doubt this hubspot pack would have saved your business, you are referencing it as such because it's the sponsor.

  • @rafaelrios5250
    @rafaelrios5250 Місяць тому +120

    Thanks for this video. It's nice to see people who have attained a status such as yours fail and share the lessons you came away with

    • @journeytothevoid2899
      @journeytothevoid2899 Місяць тому +1

      At what point did you realize the business was not feasible. Was it in the financial model, a people issue or combo of both?

  • @camerawman
    @camerawman Місяць тому +35

    Learned a long time ago from my mentor ,that failure is way much better than no efforts. COngrats tim ,,,I am sure your journey is going to impact a lot of lives brother...

    • @journeytothevoid2899
      @journeytothevoid2899 Місяць тому +1

      At what point did you realize the business was not feasible. Was it in the financial model, a people issue or combo of both?

  • @Faroghar
    @Faroghar Місяць тому +63

    Here are the five key lessons the author learned from the failure of his tech startup:
    1. **Validate the idea before building**: The author regrets not validating the idea enough with users before starting development. Getting quick and plentiful feedback is crucial to knowing if the market actually needs the product.
    2. **Build the minimum viable product**: Instead of creating a complex product right away, he should have focused on a simple and functional version to gather immediate feedback and avoid unnecessary coding.
    3. **Release early and iterate quickly**: The author advises launching an imperfect product quickly and then using user feedback to improve it over time, rather than spending months perfecting a product before releasing it.
    4. **Detach your ego from the product**: It's essential not to take criticism personally. The product doesn't define the creator’s worth, and every piece of feedback should be seen as an opportunity for improvement.
    5. **Fail fast**: It's important to recognize early when an idea isn't working and not hold on too long. Failing quickly allows you to move on to the next opportunity and learn from the mistakes made.

    • @garic4
      @garic4 Місяць тому +2

      the summary comments should be pinned top. This is hero service thank you

    • @TheSilverGlow
      @TheSilverGlow Місяць тому +3

      I like nearly all of your list, but your #3 is a huge mistake. Your brand, your name, your reputation and that of your company is EVERYTHING! Fast launch + iteration is a fade these days, and you see this wrong thinking all over the internet. Sure, a few people who have made it big did this, but most did not. The app, version 1 should never, ever be released too early, fast, and not placing quality first and foremost. Quality decides when the app is launched, not this wrong thinking of early + lots of interactions. Sure, you want to be planning v2 shortly after v1 is released, and iterate often, but v1 should not be rushed...quality should rule the day. And when I say quality, I am not talking perfection...better to launch a v1 high quality product with fewer features, than a fully featured app that is buggy, and lacks detailed touches to get a great UX. Quality, quality, quality, quality...why do you think the Apps Stores all are filled with junky apps? They did not put quality first.

    • @MyWatermelonz
      @MyWatermelonz Місяць тому +3

      Thanks Google Gemini.

    • @bossgd100
      @bossgd100 Місяць тому

      Thanks

    • @sultanhanga
      @sultanhanga Місяць тому +3

      ChatGPT huh ?

  • @WackNoir
    @WackNoir Місяць тому +82

    yo bro you are real as hell for this, this video is going to be something that garners more support for you and your endeavors since most startup founders are not willing to be necessarily be open about their failures. appreciate you

  • @linearnorth1233
    @linearnorth1233 Місяць тому +10

    Thank you for not gatekeeping these valuable lessons! You are right on so many points that I have experienced myself before, but you just have to move on.

  • @jamespeters1617
    @jamespeters1617 Місяць тому +7

    And lastly this was one really honest video, I think the advice is absolutely incredible and thanks tim for all your videos

  • @nufh
    @nufh 29 днів тому +2

    Ego is something real for me, so I’ve learned to detach myself from my work to accept criticism. When people who don’t know you say it sucks, they’re sincere-they have no attachment to you and nothing to gain by lying.

  • @Oodle-ox2vf
    @Oodle-ox2vf Місяць тому +2

    Yep, you make some good points, good video. I am retired, been a self employed Hardware/software developer for 50 years.
    Some of my cleverest work, that I was really enthusiastic about, never sold. But, I made good money on many of the boring things that did not really interest me.
    Ya gotta remember that you are making it for others, with different needs, not for yourself, that is what hobbies are for.
    Getting customers to realize that showing "commitment to the product" is in their own interests, can cover most of the development costs.

  • @CupOfCoffee1
    @CupOfCoffee1 Місяць тому +12

    Thanks for sharing. There is one book - The Lean Startup by Eric Ries, where covered almost every lesson mentioned in the video, worth a shot.

  • @blissfulDew
    @blissfulDew Місяць тому +1

    There are not many people who would admit all these lessons, even to a closed group... much less to the whole world. so I applaud you for your honesty

  • @taxlord-Germany
    @taxlord-Germany 24 дні тому

    Awesome video! I am in a similar point of situation with my company. We develop a tax software and 3 weeks ago we needed to make a hatd cut on a very important process part. But we now made it much simpler and now the developing process starts accelerating. Starting with the MVP (minimum valiable product) is the absolute best lesson learned on this project. Thanks Tim and all the best for you. Failure is very important as soon as you learned your lessons from. Impressed by your self reglection in that young age. Best greetings from Germany!

  • @DuaneDonaldson
    @DuaneDonaldson Місяць тому +1

    Learned in University, public surveys in the genre of the App, in this case, survey athletes and resurvey based on info gathered from the beginning to date. ALPHA then BETA testing with the users and getting constant feedback, listening to them more than yourself. Look at Microsoft, get the software out by a certain date, any upgrades will be in version 2 & 3, etc, get the software working 100% for the 60% that is complete on the intended schedule, it must be published on time, ready or not. Then work on found bugs and iterate with free updates to a certain level. Your failures were taught to me in my CS Degree at a low-level Uni in a foreign country. Thanks for your lessons in life Brother.

  • @vijaynadkarni
    @vijaynadkarni Місяць тому

    Thanks for the video and for sharing your lessons learned, which I agree with. Having done 3 myself (1 success, 1 failure, 1 ongoing) I can say that there’s rarely a pure correlation between success and the effort one puts into it. Success depends greatly on the factors you’ve correctly identified, but there’s usually a measure of being in the right place at the right time, which is often discounted. In short, there’s no “formula” that works all the time.

  • @AndreTJones
    @AndreTJones Місяць тому +10

    My ex is a lawyer and wants me to build an app with all of these features off the bat. I think you’re right. Simpler is better

    • @aar0n709
      @aar0n709 Місяць тому +2

      You Wild son

    • @AndreTJones
      @AndreTJones Місяць тому

      @@aar0n709 🤷🏽‍♂️

    • @aar0n709
      @aar0n709 Місяць тому +2

      @@AndreTJones yes start a startup with your ex and no market research

  • @jamespeters1617
    @jamespeters1617 Місяць тому

    As long as you’ve gain insight like your giving right now, the knowledge is golden. You never fail if your learning.

  • @justinbliske1402
    @justinbliske1402 24 дні тому

    I struggled with Lesson 4 for a very long time; I still do from time to time. This is a very important lesson to learn in order to grow.

  • @davidpatry4195
    @davidpatry4195 Місяць тому

    Reals gems here. Any engineer, myself included, will greatly benefit from Lesson 4. Thank you sir.

  • @fleboho
    @fleboho Місяць тому

    You're not alone on this Tim, most of what you said in this video is definetly on point. We get too attached to our works to the point where we can't take criticism too well.

  • @anargasanov174
    @anargasanov174 Місяць тому +1

    You should read “The Lean Startup”. It covers all of the topics that you’ve mentioned.

  • @sijian1910
    @sijian1910 28 днів тому +1

    agree as early as possible, simpler is better. however, I disagree about listen to the users, that won't bring the world progress, you should be confident to what you build, never do the project if you are not the user and you do not have confidence it valuable. Also, your user and product manager who's without any engineering background would lack of the ability of abstraction, which puts the creator team and engineers in a better position in startups.

  • @esrx7a
    @esrx7a Місяць тому +10

    "No regrets", this says everything about the person, awesome man...

  • @PushkinMan
    @PushkinMan Місяць тому

    Very good stuff, I suggest everyone to listen carefully, remember and even write it down. And of course - apply it! The plan for me to start getting my startup with essential functionally into production as soon as possible. Good luck everyone!

  • @TyronneRatcliff
    @TyronneRatcliff Місяць тому +1

    Sometimes it's better to find an app idea that's already been successful and validated and find a way to build the same kind of app better. Not an easy task but definitely possible.

  • @maxivy
    @maxivy 27 днів тому

    I really appreciate this video and respect you for putting yourself out there like this.

  • @OmriTurge
    @OmriTurge Місяць тому

    tim I hope that u see this just wanted to say that you are a legend for using the default vs code monokai theme dude!
    you love this theme so much that the under lines don't even bother you hahahah
    I really love monokai sublime too, but doesn't use the default because of the lines, but it looks amazing

  • @cusematt23
    @cusematt23 Місяць тому

    Man. Such a value add video. I bet people won’t appreciate it as much as they should.

  • @existenceisillusion6528
    @existenceisillusion6528 Місяць тому +2

    Worked for a company for 5 years, tried to convince them not to make these mistakes. They didn't listen, but I think they're still in business, mostly because they have a broad enough range of products that they can absorb a failure. Actually, they have the product and can, at any time, turn it into a success, but they just sit on it. Oh well.

  • @5464654135756
    @5464654135756 Місяць тому

    Really appreciate your bravery to share with us your failures! Really learned sth from you. Kudos!!!! ❤

  • @christtech
    @christtech Місяць тому +1

    "fail fast" this is a statement I'm gonna hold on to though there's a thing line between this and "giving up" I hope it settles well in my head, thanks tim❤ 8:53

  • @growingisgood
    @growingisgood Місяць тому

    Thanks for sharing Tim. Lots of devs need to hear this bro 👍🏽🙌🏽

  • @hardbrocklife
    @hardbrocklife 24 дні тому

    This is a major component of business. Very few individuals who have large, profitable businesses got there without failing in one way or another many times.
    Im a partial owner in a retail business for regulated goods. Margins are decent and we are profitable. One major issue we didnt anticipate being so severe is that even your employees that fill simpler roles like cashiering have to be nearly as competent as a finacial auditor because of severity of reprecussions if paper work is not filled perfectly. You nearly have to hire someone who could run your business just to be a cashier.
    Were we to start over we would go into B2B sales instesd of B2C.

  • @equin07x
    @equin07x Місяць тому

    Lesson 4 was heavy for me. I had this prof who made us create multiple CRUD apps in a span of one sem; 2 of which are individual and as much as I believe the desktop app the got nitpicked, I felt like was the one being nitpicked because I spent so much day and night figuring it out. Especially when it was my very first desktop app and I thought I was only getting my feet wet. I totally resonate with detaching yourself with what you build..

  • @gabrielbarrantes6946
    @gabrielbarrantes6946 Місяць тому +2

    I am unable to find a job, my health issues have me crippled, no income 3 years, and my only hope is my start-up, wish me luck guys because it might be the only way for me to stay alive.

    • @aar0n709
      @aar0n709 Місяць тому +1

      Maybe you should get a job first then use the resources from that to do a startup. I doubt if you have the resources to do a startup if your having trouble with your employment

  • @AlmightyFSM
    @AlmightyFSM 26 днів тому

    Lacking product market fit is generally seen as the reason for failure (as suggested in this video). This is true, but not usually the reason for company failure. The failure is not being able, or willing, to pivot. Many (most?) successful startups find success with something different to what they started with. They usually fail to achieve product market fit initially. Doing more user validation is good, but won't really change the outcome much. The outcome is changed by recognizing that the opportunity is somewhere adjacent to where you started, and being able to quickly steer the ship towards it.

  • @TheCulturedSwine
    @TheCulturedSwine Місяць тому

    Thanks Tim! Im starting new platform right now and these are definitely helpful tips, currently I’m only using 2 of the 5 and will keep the rest in mind.

  • @dineshgct
    @dineshgct Місяць тому

    Great lessons shared, the experience has been immense. good luck with your next venture bro. These lessons will be very handy

  • @wscrivner
    @wscrivner Місяць тому

    Thanks for sharing your experience and advice. I think this will be a big help to me on a project that I'm about to work on for a family member. It's not for pay but for experience but your advice can still he applied.
    Sorry your endeavor didn't work out but good for you for keeping a good attitude and taking it as a learning experience.

  • @alsonyang230
    @alsonyang230 Місяць тому

    Hey Tim, thanks for sharing these 5 fantastic tips. Although I have no plan running start up, but this will be useful principle for me to keep in mind when building customer facing application for work.
    Not sure if it's confidential, it would be great if you can share the main reasons (1-3) that the app fails (Issues), and how these 5 tips you provide (solution) could address those issues and potentially avoided the failure. Learning by real example will always deepen our understanding over learning just the theory.
    It's like when you teach Design pattern for example, it will help us understand more if you talk about the problem exist without the usage of design pattern, and then show us how the right design pattern can help address/mitigate the problem.
    Again, thanks for sharing, loved it! 🥰

    • @bahroum69
      @bahroum69 Місяць тому +1

      Main one, is nobody cared. There really is nothing else. No product market fit

    • @alsonyang230
      @alsonyang230 Місяць тому

      @@bahroum69 Thanks for sharing the reason!

  • @ys02k
    @ys02k Місяць тому

    Thank you for sharing this information! I and several others appreciate this video

  • @rishi9224
    @rishi9224 Місяць тому +1

    I do agree with these helpful tips and it’s definitely a good learning experience. However, these points could have been avoided if the co-founder took the time to do market research before assembling a team. Money, time and human resources wouldn’t have been wasted.
    Also, as for someone who teaches about software development. It’s interesting to see how you didn’t follow any SDLC model. It’s important to keep iterating the feature. At the end of the day, it’s the customer who will be using the app. If they don’t like it then the project will simply fail.
    All these points are also covered in software development/QA books

  • @brianmungai1070
    @brianmungai1070 Місяць тому

    Nice video, Tim. Thanks for sharing these honest insights from your experience. It's really eye-opening.

  • @goodfeather16
    @goodfeather16 Місяць тому

    All valid points! This is also true when you work at a company.

  • @philipc9000
    @philipc9000 Місяць тому

    Good pointers about the mistakes that you have made through building a startup that failed. One can learn from the mistakes of others apart from successes...

  • @hamm8934
    @hamm8934 29 днів тому +2

    Are you just summarizing the Book “The Lean Startup”? Lol

  • @masked00000
    @masked00000 Місяць тому

    I have thought about every point you discussed. This was helpful and has given me reassurance on what not to do!

  • @kfiramar9967
    @kfiramar9967 Місяць тому +4

    “The lean startup” Book - summarized into a video

    • @thubelihlekupa3339
      @thubelihlekupa3339 Місяць тому +1

      Also thought , this is nothing to do with his experience but he just read the book and summarised it

  • @TaskSwitcherify
    @TaskSwitcherify Місяць тому

    I feel your pain... It's all well explained in the book 'Lean Startup' by Eric Ries and 'The Startup Owner's Manual' & 'The Four Steps to the Epiphany' by Steve Blank

  • @vuquangtruong5950
    @vuquangtruong5950 Місяць тому

    Really really really appreciate it. Wish you all the best .

  • @Dav-jj2jb
    @Dav-jj2jb Місяць тому

    No worries, it's ok. I failed 5 times (so far), big fails, small fails, all the fails. My biggest lesson is that you don't really need a team to validate an idea. Or rather, you don't validate an idea, you validate a business plan. I acutally started as a coder and now it's looking like 20% code and 80% research, business and strategy.

  • @jamespeters1617
    @jamespeters1617 Місяць тому +1

    Dude great advice I recommend just get it done in Django build somewhat organized and get a idea up

  • @ben_hkw117
    @ben_hkw117 Місяць тому

    Failure rate of startups are high. Good thing is you can have as many as you want. Keep it up!! :)

  • @abdullahnaim10
    @abdullahnaim10 Місяць тому

    Valuable insights. Will be implementing them for my projects. Thank you!

  • @Heisenberg2097
    @Heisenberg2097 Місяць тому +1

    I remember my time in a co-working space in Berlin... seeing the startups burst like bubbles. So many game changers that were only shame gainers... LOL

  • @carlwratten6200
    @carlwratten6200 Місяць тому

    This is a really good video. Useful lessons for life generally, not just for creating IT projects.

  • @benjaminchow5502
    @benjaminchow5502 Місяць тому

    Thank you for sharing this Tim! Respect.

  • @chiedozieonyearugbulem9363
    @chiedozieonyearugbulem9363 Місяць тому +1

    Thanks for sharing. I admire your transparency on the learnings from your failed start-up. I'm currently working on an internal project and I can see myself making some the mistakes you pointed out. Would be an opportunity for me to take a course correction and get things right

  • @kipfitpal
    @kipfitpal Місяць тому

    This is gold! Thank you Tim.

  • @williamwhitehead374
    @williamwhitehead374 Місяць тому +1

    Great video man.

  • @rohanrobinson6839
    @rohanrobinson6839 Місяць тому

    awesome video Tim, best of luck with the next one

  • @jamesm.9285
    @jamesm.9285 Місяць тому

    Super valuable lessons, thank you for sharing openly! Josh Kaufman's book (or website), 'The Personal MBA' teaches these same crucial lessons. Easily one of my favourite reads on business.

  • @asmedeus448
    @asmedeus448 25 днів тому

    I agree with lesson 5 because without experience you wont be better.

  • @Jesupemiabere
    @Jesupemiabere Місяць тому

    Thank you so much for this video
    Point one and two hit me most
    We want to grt out into the wild as fast as possible

  • @Business_101
    @Business_101 Місяць тому

    All your points are valid, except for pushing out a garbage product and iterating it through it quickly! That’s just a horrible thing to do in business and what you should do is, push out a very basic version of the product that looks good enough and functions good enough and then roll out the additional features that you have on your plan feature by feature.
    Also, you do NOT hire FOUR software developers at that stage - you definitely do not need that many at that point of the project and that expense will just kill your business - you should have spent that expense on marketing and growth instead

  • @kylesmith7242
    @kylesmith7242 Місяць тому

    I would recommend The Lean Startup Book by Eric Ries. Short read but there's a lot of principles that you went over that are in there and some more.

  • @Achrafhakim-o1f
    @Achrafhakim-o1f Місяць тому

    wow thanks tim,I had plans of a start up ,this is so useful

  • @shivthedev
    @shivthedev Місяць тому

    Only genuine people share their best learnings!

  • @nickmasters5995
    @nickmasters5995 Місяць тому +2

    It takes a strong man to admit that he was wrong and for that alone I love you... and I am a heterosexual male.

  • @shis10
    @shis10 Місяць тому +1

    Amazing video.
    Which tech stack you used for app ??

    • @nelmatrix3942
      @nelmatrix3942 Місяць тому +1

      I think he said React Native at the time he posted a video announcing the start-up.

    • @shis10
      @shis10 Місяць тому

      @@nelmatrix3942 Ok

  • @crono102
    @crono102 Місяць тому +1

    "CEO had the idea..." is a red flag

    • @MichaelSt
      @MichaelSt 22 дні тому

      He put the money, not a red flag

    • @spol
      @spol 22 дні тому

      Not sure where you got the idea that your leader shouldn’t contribute a broad vision.

    • @crono102
      @crono102 22 дні тому

      @@spol The CEO provides the big picture, setting the overall strategy and objectives. Then, it's down to the leaders to bring those ideas up, and this leaders in turn pass them on to their teams, who then get to work on the nitty-gritty. It's a simple, straightforward process that works really well. But, if a CEO tries to do too much, they might lose out in the market.

  • @q450062734
    @q450062734 Місяць тому

    Things it shows that might be the problem:
    Being tech employee with no decision making privilege as a tech founder, and even put in own capital.
    2. Cognitive training for athlete. Whats the market, how many athletes like to look at the screen for a long time. Is the idea tested at an early stage
    3. Care too much. As an employee, utilizing personal relational capital by hiring friends and network for not much value given back to self

  • @BlueBirdgg
    @BlueBirdgg Місяць тому

    Thanks for sharing the experience.

  • @edwardroy3401
    @edwardroy3401 Місяць тому

    The key to success is failure 🔑 . In any venture, you either succeed or you learn.

  • @adrieladegunju
    @adrieladegunju Місяць тому

    my mum always tells me that coding does not take time but i sit here and watch your videos

  • @sutofana
    @sutofana Місяць тому

    love you tim, thank you

  • @softwareengineer8923
    @softwareengineer8923 Місяць тому +1

    Really helpful, much obliged for sharing

  • @deeplearningexplained
    @deeplearningexplained Місяць тому

    Very solid Tim 👍

  • @osamareema3008
    @osamareema3008 Місяць тому

    I loved your honsty man !, Thank you so much for shring , And I really hope the next one will be amaizing♥

  • @fizzlid4511
    @fizzlid4511 Місяць тому +1

    Why did you consider it "failed"? Is it lack of users? Or was the app never finished?

  • @journeytothevoid2899
    @journeytothevoid2899 Місяць тому +1

    At what point did you realize the business was not feasible. Was it in the financial model, a people issue or combo of both?

  • @Pisakhov0
    @Pisakhov0 Місяць тому

    Thank you for letting us learn from your mistakes

  • @RifatErdemSahin
    @RifatErdemSahin 26 днів тому

    Well gr8 video feedback > ego > sales

  • @LuisPerez-ce7fn
    @LuisPerez-ce7fn Місяць тому

    Great video. Thank you for this

  • @ironfist7789
    @ironfist7789 Місяць тому

    Yeah it is important to test the product with actual potential customers rather than just talking to other people in the industry or business. Other businesses might not be doing things correctly or they might be subsidized by other ventures which makes their success or failure questionable. Also, for people moving from a set wage to starting a business... the mindset is a little different. As a worker or part of a corporation, as long as the check is coming in and you are paid for the work, it doesn't necessarily matter if it is useful (to some degree). As the owner (especially a private owner), there is no point in completing a task that will not be relevant to success no matter how much you have put into it already. You don't get paid for stuff that just looks good on the ole resume.

  • @hurric4n3ike
    @hurric4n3ike 23 дні тому

    Preciate it G💪🏽

  • @blastav
    @blastav Місяць тому

    Thanks for video!!! Very informative and helpful

  • @415BurberryKid
    @415BurberryKid Місяць тому

    Just curious, did you split your code base for each developer?

  • @studentsheaven-d8v
    @studentsheaven-d8v 18 днів тому

    boy oh boy...love the video

  • @achalasamapriya2701
    @achalasamapriya2701 19 днів тому

    great motivational speech .thank you

  • @danialahmed6438
    @danialahmed6438 26 днів тому

    Moral of the story: Don't be a perfectionist.

  • @truejohnsolo
    @truejohnsolo Місяць тому

    This is golden! Thank you

  • @abdulmobinkarimi6846
    @abdulmobinkarimi6846 Місяць тому

    sorry for your failure bro,
    Tim is always great! remember

  • @the_aialchemist
    @the_aialchemist Місяць тому

    I wish they read the book lean startup by eric reiss and he’s hitting this idea home about validated learning

  • @carlhopkinson
    @carlhopkinson Місяць тому

    Sage advice. Live and learn.

  • @ipodtouch470
    @ipodtouch470 Місяць тому +1

    Yo Tim when I click on videos on your channel this video doesn’t show up. I got here through clicking through a UA-cam short video. No push notifications either

  • @jamesharris40001
    @jamesharris40001 27 днів тому

    Same takeaways from closing my startup also

  • @TimMountjoy-zy2fd
    @TimMountjoy-zy2fd Місяць тому

    YES validate the idea because the initial description made me recoil - who will pay for this and who will use it and who will say it helped them and recommend it. Maybe I don't know athletes but it sounded dead in the water from the start.

  • @raymondchow4947
    @raymondchow4947 Місяць тому

    Thanks bro for your sharing and guidance

  • @alexsnewhandle
    @alexsnewhandle Місяць тому

    There's an error in the description. Says the link is for an AI Dev job instead of for the Business Startup Kit

  • @lszujo
    @lszujo Місяць тому +1

    this failure is probably good for your character..you're a very smart kid,but character has nothing to do how clever you are....get up,learn from your mistakes and succeed next time around...