I find it odd that nearly every print ad for hi-end audio equipment shows a system sitting in a living space that consists of nothing but glass, tile, and brick. The echos jump off the page.
oh how I laughed at the lampshade idea . I had been wondering how to dampen the ceiling reflections for a long time so thought again. Paul could be right, maybe, so a trip to B&Q and found a fabric lampshade that met requirements. Crikey it worked. Stronger centre image and spundstsge, very pleased! My wife is still laughing though!
I ran into the same problem and the best accoustic treatment I can think of for a living space on the cheap is a well stocked bookshelf. I hav one on the wall opposite my stereo and it did cure my listening room.
The machine made carpets tend to be thicker, and if you spend enough on them you can get prints with very high resolution. If you adjust the curtains just right you can make your own quadratic diffuser ;)
Thanks for addressing the 'elephant in the room' in my house. Actually would an elephant in the room reduce the sound reflections? The room is basically a large shoebox - 9mx4m with a pair of narrow floorstanding speakers either firing down the room from one end (summer) or sometimes across the room (winter). I'm currently trying to persuade my other half to share the interior design role - she can chose the colours/patterns etc. and I help choose the material. It's a long labourious process and I've decided to invest in a better pair of headphones as a short term fix.
Well that's a novel solution - thanks for mentioning it. Actually, wasn't it poet, Arthur O'Shaughnessy, who wrote, "We are the music makers/And we are the dreamers of dreams..." So, strangely apt then :)
Very true. My system is opposite to a concrete wall and for the moment there's a bed sheet hanging in front of that wall. Makes a world of difference, and now I'm looking for a better looking solution. An actual tapestry could be nice, and it's certainly a lot more affordable then a big piece of canvas.
I had ceramic tiles in my room when I moved in, even worse than wood flooring for floor bounces, floor echoes! Plus 5 windows all on one side of the room. A thick underlay and carpet completely eliminated the audible floor echoes. Roller blinds on the windows plus 2 velvet curtains on a curtain rail sorted out the windows. Though I don't draw the curtains closed when watching movies listening to music. Have them on tiebacks. As for the walls of the room. Acoustic absorption panels with front scattering plates, a couple of cylindrical hybrid absorber/diffusers. And a few wooden diffusers have made a big difference to the audible sound quality of my small living room.
If a picture is on a wooden frame, you can try filling the back with an old blanket; it both adds density to the absorption and stops the canvas itself vibrating and reflecting sound. It works, but, of course, not perfectly.
Great video Paul. My tiny listening area has a rug and fabric sofa, but a large expanse of bare wall behind the sofa. The canvas idea is very interesting. Do you think one large canvas or three smaller ones would be better? Should I also put something on the bare wall above the turntable? Thanks.
I would experiment with what you might have available, Anthony. Put one canvas in the middle and clap in front of it, then either side to see if echos come back at you. If so, then spread out two canvas pictures. Then clap in front and either side and see if the feedback change or remains consistent. If there's no change, you're sorted. If you find echo spots then sure, introduce a third canvas.
A timely reminder how important common sense, ie affordable, home room treatment really is. Well done yet again Paul! I still have fond memories of gobbling up Noel Keywood’s advice on the same subject from way back. I still have the original article 😊
Thanks Dermot - I missed/forget about Noel's article. Can you look, out of interest, to see if we differ much in our advice? I know everyone has their own opinions on these things but, even so, be interested to see what road Noel went down.
@@TheAudiophileMan Just because I have the original article doesn’t mean I can find it lol! However I’ll do my best to root it out and I’ll email it to you. How’s that 😊
Had a look in the only place I keep my old hi fi articles and sadly I drew a blank. Then I remembered that I actually used Noel’s notes in class one time I was teaching about sound treating a room. Unfortunately when I retired I passed on the notes to another colleague and promptly forgot to keep a copy. Couldn’t wait to get out of the place lol! But purely from memory you got everything spot on Paul. So no worries at all even though it was slightly more technical ie in relation to nodes etc etc. However I do remember one thing Noel emphasised and which I still adhere to and it is this, when positioning speakers always position them in such a way that there’s no multiples between the back and side walls. To me that meant that, for example, if the distance from the side walls to the speaker is, say, 22 inches then the distance from the back wall to the rear of the speaker cannot be 11 inches. I’ll leave it at that 🤔
Great topic and explanation. Now that you have done all this to your room, could you give us a 360 video, so we can see the transformation and size, or is that to private?
I don’t doubt the beneficial results from the treatments but the effects are really a combination of some elements damping and some diffusing. The bookcase is acting as a ( albeit not wide band) diffuser, the spaces, cavities break up ( scatter) the wavefronts, but aren’t necessarily absorbing or damping them.
Ich habe in meinem "HiFi-Raum" die Wände voll mit Konzert-Postern, alle eingerahmt hinter Glas, ebenso LP-Cover! Es ist mir nie aufgefallen, das die Glasscheiben Echo's werfen! Und ich hatte u.a. Luxman C03/M03! Momentan habe ich Magnat MR 780 an Quadral 4-Wege-Standboxen!
Intendi un giro della mia stanza? Ho iniziato un tour della mia stanza hi-fi su Patreon, iniziando con tutto il mio hi-fi. Poi la mia stanza seguirà. Quindi è tutto legato a quello. Ci sono alcune immagini nel video.
I like your videos a lot and I like how you speak as well as your attitude but your editing genuinely puts me off watching your videos and I personally would love to see them trimmed down with fewer intervals. I also wonder if nearly 10 mins of prelude maybe was a bit excessive before getting to the changes you made. I want this to be seen as helpful and I wouldn’t say it if I didn’t like what you do, it’s just there are things that could be done to make me like them more and watch more of them in future, I also suspect that others would appreciate my suggested changes. Thanks for doing what you do though!
Hi Rock, thanks for your comments and giving the channel some thought. Thing is, if I acted upon all such advice (and I get a lot of advice) then you'd see a brand new channel every week of the year :) When it comes right down to it, I have to do what I think is right for me and my channel. And it is evolving, constantly. I'm always looking to improve and tweak and to appeal to a broad audience. And 'broad' is the word of choice here because I'll never make everyone happy. There will always be irritations that will needle some viewers out there. I'll keep working on it, though. In terms of the intro, just before I talked about the background to the Damping thing, I did make a point in the video of warning everyone that I was going into that intro and you could skip straight to the product list via the chapter headings in the Description (2:14). In addition, there's also UA-cam's own transport controls to FF, if you need to do that.
After going to great length explaining how you dampened your listening room with furniture, area rugs, curtains, Etc., one would have expected that this video ended with a tour of your acoustically treated room.
Patreon users will be seeing a full room tour, after they’ve finished the HiFi system tour. That’s a prior commitment I’ve already discussed. I do provide a host of treatment close ups of my room in this video, though. You’re welcome to investigate Patreon if you wish to see more.
Yep definitely! While I have 11 acoustic room treatment panels, and a couple more to get. I understand most people have wife's and girlfriend's so can't just put whatever they want in the room. I'm single live myself so don't have as many restrictions as a lot of people. But I will say room treatment has come a long way in the last couple of decades. You can now get absorption panels with your own photos, pictures printed on the acoustic fabric. Wooden diffusers that look like stylish wall art etc. You can get WAF friendly acoustic room treatments if you put the research and effort in.
As that classic ditty, a song for the ages, 'Dem Bones' has it, "The back bone's connected to the neck bone/The neck bone's connected to the head bone..." the nature of sound and its journey around your HiFi and the surrounding listening room is rather more organic and - importantly - interconnected than a mere isolated spot occupied by your chair. So I'd advise looking at the bigger picture.
Yes it can but if you rely on it instead of treating the room first, then if anything moves in the room like furniture or speaker position the sound corrections collapses and become nasty. Best to use both for the best synergy of sound improvement. 1st treat the room as best you can starting with the bass then the mid, the treble will reduce as a result, if fact you may need to add some reflectivity back in. don't just think of absorption a lot can be achieved with diffusion as well a good bookshelf with random arrangement of books, Once you done that bearing in mind the practical realities of actually living in the room. Also try to treat the floor and ceiling refection's (especially with ATMOS). Then use dirac or other room corrections to overcome those compromises you had to make. That was moving the speakers or other furniture a few inches wont mess up the acoustics.
It’s a useful video but it would have been a little better still if we could have seen a photo of your room and known its dimensions. If you are too shy to show us then a diagram would have been fine to illustrate the room, size and the position of the L shape & windows… I am far from blessed with a 3.2 x 3.5m room with a large glass window sitting within a recess (it’s an apartment) - and yes I can provide a diagram… I am just a little shy 😊
I find it odd that nearly every print ad for hi-end audio equipment shows a system sitting in a living space that consists of nothing but glass, tile, and brick. The echos jump off the page.
Yes. Agreed :)
Thanks for the video.I fully get it, I was just a little surprised you didn’t mention bass.And how to reduce its effects.
oh how I laughed at the lampshade idea . I had been wondering how to dampen the ceiling reflections for a long time so thought again.
Paul could be right, maybe, so a trip to B&Q and found a fabric lampshade that met requirements. Crikey it worked. Stronger centre image and spundstsge, very pleased! My wife is still laughing though!
Hurrah! Glad it helped, David.
Plants. Also a great way to help with this and it looks great as well.
I ran into the same problem and the best accoustic treatment I can think of for a living space on the cheap is a well stocked bookshelf. I hav one on the wall opposite my stereo and it did cure my listening room.
NY NY Smart and practical advice. Useful even here in a small apartment Living Room.
Great video I use canvas pictures for my first Reflection Point works great and looks good
The machine made carpets tend to be thicker, and if you spend enough on them you can get prints with very high resolution.
If you adjust the curtains just right you can make your own quadratic diffuser ;)
Thanks for addressing the 'elephant in the room' in my house. Actually would an elephant in the room reduce the sound reflections? The room is basically a large shoebox - 9mx4m with a pair of narrow floorstanding speakers either firing down the room from one end (summer) or sometimes across the room (winter). I'm currently trying to persuade my other half to share the interior design role - she can chose the colours/patterns etc. and I help choose the material. It's a long labourious process and I've decided to invest in a better pair of headphones as a short term fix.
I use heavy thread dream catchers, great for corners ceilings and walls . Natural wood furniture is great also .
Good advice as always ..
Well that's a novel solution - thanks for mentioning it. Actually, wasn't it poet, Arthur O'Shaughnessy, who wrote, "We are the music makers/And we are the dreamers of dreams..." So, strangely apt then :)
Upper left, my favorite Pete Townshend solo record!
Very true. My system is opposite to a concrete wall and for the moment there's a bed sheet hanging in front of that wall. Makes a world of difference, and now I'm looking for a better looking solution. An actual tapestry could be nice, and it's certainly a lot more affordable then a big piece of canvas.
A blanket would be better, but you're only hitting the high frequencies.
I had ceramic tiles in my room when I moved in, even worse than wood flooring for floor bounces, floor echoes! Plus 5 windows all on one side of the room.
A thick underlay and carpet completely eliminated the audible floor echoes. Roller blinds on the windows plus 2 velvet curtains on a curtain rail sorted out the windows. Though I don't draw the curtains closed when watching movies listening to music. Have them on tiebacks.
As for the walls of the room. Acoustic absorption panels with front scattering plates, a couple of cylindrical hybrid absorber/diffusers. And a few wooden diffusers have made a big difference to the audible sound quality of my small living room.
If a picture is on a wooden frame, you can try filling the back with an old blanket; it both adds density to the absorption and stops the canvas itself vibrating and reflecting sound.
It works, but, of course, not perfectly.
Great! How to dampen your neighbours ruining the performance with their techno, or hills walking floor above?
Great video Paul. My tiny listening area has a rug and fabric sofa, but a large expanse of bare wall behind the sofa. The canvas idea is very interesting. Do you think one large canvas or three smaller ones would be better? Should I also put something on the bare wall above the turntable?
Thanks.
I would experiment with what you might have available, Anthony. Put one canvas in the middle and clap in front of it, then either side to see if echos come back at you. If so, then spread out two canvas pictures. Then clap in front and either side and see if the feedback change or remains consistent. If there's no change, you're sorted. If you find echo spots then sure, introduce a third canvas.
A timely reminder how important common sense, ie affordable, home room treatment really is. Well done yet again Paul! I still have fond memories of gobbling up Noel Keywood’s advice on the same subject from way back. I still have the original article 😊
Thanks Dermot - I missed/forget about Noel's article. Can you look, out of interest, to see if we differ much in our advice? I know everyone has their own opinions on these things but, even so, be interested to see what road Noel went down.
@@TheAudiophileMan Just because I have the original article doesn’t mean I can find it lol! However I’ll do my best to root it out and I’ll email it to you. How’s that 😊
Ahhh - ok :) No worries, Dermot.
Had a look in the only place I keep my old hi fi articles and sadly I drew a blank. Then I remembered that I actually used Noel’s notes in class one time I was teaching about sound treating a room. Unfortunately when I retired I passed on the notes to another colleague and promptly forgot to keep a copy. Couldn’t wait to get out of the place lol! But purely from memory you got everything spot on Paul. So no worries at all even though it was slightly more technical ie in relation to nodes etc etc. However I do remember one thing Noel emphasised and which I still adhere to and it is this, when positioning speakers always position them in such a way that there’s no multiples between the back and side walls. To me that meant that, for example, if the distance from the side walls to the speaker is, say, 22 inches then the distance from the back wall to the rear of the speaker cannot be 11 inches. I’ll leave it at that 🤔
Good stuff - thanks for trawling your memories, Dermot :)
Great topic and explanation. Now that you have done all this to your room, could you give us a 360 video, so we can see the transformation and size, or is that to private?
My HiFi and room tour is reserved for Patreon users. The HiFi tour is already underway so Patreon supporters had first dibs. :)
@@TheAudiophileMan Ok. Thanks for your reply.
I don’t doubt the beneficial results from the treatments but the effects are really a combination of some elements damping and some diffusing. The bookcase is acting as a ( albeit not wide band) diffuser, the spaces, cavities break up ( scatter) the wavefronts, but aren’t necessarily absorbing or damping them.
gotta love the kallax,i have a whole wall done and im running out of vinyl room lol...i bought a large rug to it did wonders to my sound ...
Nice one, John :)
Ich habe in meinem "HiFi-Raum" die Wände voll mit Konzert-Postern, alle eingerahmt hinter Glas, ebenso LP-Cover! Es ist mir nie aufgefallen, das die Glasscheiben Echo's werfen! Und ich hatte u.a. Luxman C03/M03! Momentan habe ich Magnat MR 780 an Quadral 4-Wege-Standboxen!
Das Glas wird sicherlich nicht helfen, sagen wir mal so :)
Bel video e consigli validi anche per risparmiare . Perché nn ci fai vedere il tuo impianto/ lavoro ??
Intendi un giro della mia stanza? Ho iniziato un tour della mia stanza hi-fi su Patreon, iniziando con tutto il mio hi-fi. Poi la mia stanza seguirà. Quindi è tutto legato a quello. Ci sono alcune immagini nel video.
Good Job Paul!
Thanks Paul. Some really handy tips and a great way to save ££££!
I like your videos a lot and I like how you speak as well as your attitude but your editing genuinely puts me off watching your videos and I personally would love to see them trimmed down with fewer intervals. I also wonder if nearly 10 mins of prelude maybe was a bit excessive before getting to the changes you made. I want this to be seen as helpful and I wouldn’t say it if I didn’t like what you do, it’s just there are things that could be done to make me like them more and watch more of them in future, I also suspect that others would appreciate my suggested changes. Thanks for doing what you do though!
Hi Rock, thanks for your comments and giving the channel some thought. Thing is, if I acted upon all such advice (and I get a lot of advice) then you'd see a brand new channel every week of the year :)
When it comes right down to it, I have to do what I think is right for me and my channel. And it is evolving, constantly. I'm always looking to improve and tweak and to appeal to a broad audience. And 'broad' is the word of choice here because I'll never make everyone happy. There will always be irritations that will needle some viewers out there.
I'll keep working on it, though.
In terms of the intro, just before I talked about the background to the Damping thing, I did make a point in the video of warning everyone that I was going into that intro and you could skip straight to the product list via the chapter headings in the Description (2:14). In addition, there's also UA-cam's own transport controls to FF, if you need to do that.
Thanks for this important video. Will an IKEA BJÖRKSTA picture do a good damping job on a 3m by 6m wall? Thanks
Yes, if there' no glass on the front.
@@TheAudiophileMan Thanks
Thank you. Very helpful!
After going to great length explaining how you dampened your listening room with furniture, area rugs, curtains, Etc., one would have expected that this video ended with a tour of your acoustically treated room.
Patreon users will be seeing a full room tour, after they’ve finished the HiFi system tour. That’s a prior commitment I’ve already discussed. I do provide a host of treatment close ups of my room in this video, though. You’re welcome to investigate Patreon if you wish to see more.
+1 on a home vs studio - finding the balance is a challenge
Yep definitely! While I have 11 acoustic room treatment panels, and a couple more to get. I understand most people have wife's and girlfriend's so can't just put whatever they want in the room. I'm single live myself so don't have as many restrictions as a lot of people.
But I will say room treatment has come a long way in the last couple of decades. You can now get absorption panels with your own photos, pictures printed on the acoustic fabric. Wooden diffusers that look like stylish wall art etc.
You can get WAF friendly acoustic room treatments if you put the research and effort in.
I have always thought that so long as the listening position in your room was dampened then you were good to go.
As that classic ditty, a song for the ages, 'Dem Bones' has it, "The back bone's connected to the neck bone/The neck bone's connected to the head bone..." the nature of sound and its journey around your HiFi and the surrounding listening room is rather more organic and - importantly - interconnected than a mere isolated spot occupied by your chair. So I'd advise looking at the bigger picture.
I wish you had posted before and after pictures of the actual room.
My HiFi and room tour is reserved for Patreon users. The HiFi tour is already underway so Patreon supporters had first dibs. :)
John Darko did a whole video on Kallax-compatible Hifi.
Paul, is your wife's artwork available for purchase?
Yes. Absolutely. :)
@@TheAudiophileMan Cool! Is there a website or something I can take a look at?
Sure, well Etsy. I’ll grab and forward details for you.
Dirac can really help in lively rooms.
Yes it can but if you rely on it instead of treating the room first, then if anything moves in the room like furniture or speaker position the sound corrections collapses and become nasty. Best to use both for the best synergy of sound improvement. 1st treat the room as best you can starting with the bass then the mid, the treble will reduce as a result, if fact you may need to add some reflectivity back in. don't just think of absorption a lot can be achieved with diffusion as well a good bookshelf with random arrangement of books, Once you done that bearing in mind the practical realities of actually living in the room. Also try to treat the floor and ceiling refection's (especially with ATMOS). Then use dirac or other room corrections to overcome those compromises you had to make. That was moving the speakers or other furniture a few inches wont mess up the acoustics.
It’s a useful video but it would have been a little better still if we could have seen a photo of your room and known its dimensions. If you are too shy to show us then a diagram would have been fine to illustrate the room, size and the position of the L shape & windows… I am far from blessed with a 3.2 x 3.5m room with a large glass window sitting within a recess (it’s an apartment) - and yes I can provide a diagram… I am just a little shy 😊
My HiFi and room tour is reserved for Patreon users. The HiFi tour is already underway so Patreon supporters had first dibs. :)