Hi Terry, what a superb video. I've been Hi Fi enthusiast for 50 years and my experience with room acoustics and treatment completely agrees with your video. Many audio enthusiasts don't realise that the room acoustics are more important than the quality of their audio system.
I have a room full of GIK acoustic panels 18 in total including a cloud panel and my system sounds fantastic. I can hear performers with great clarity and tonality and it sounds more real. You need advice to get the right balance a d GIK helped me do that. Addressing the bass in my room was a priority and with extensive bass traps in the corners my speaker’s bass response is now deep, tight and varied -far from the one-note bass i had before. Anyone who wants to really hear their system needs acoustic treatment as there will be issues. Side panels that absorb the first reflection point make a huge difference to imaging. I highly recommended GIK Acoustics if you want to treat your room.
Hi Terry, over 40 years ago I was living with my mother and had a system that consisted of Wharfedale Glendale speakers, a Leak Delta 70 amplifier and a Trio KD1033 turntable. On one fine summers day I took the system out into the large back garden and it sounded great. No walls, no ceiling and no corners to degrade the sound. I kept the volume fairly low to not upset any neighbours. However, one neighbour a few houses away who was in his garden said it sounded amazing and asked me to do it again. I now live 700 feet up a big hill in Wales with Tannoy's and lots of amplifier power so I may try try doing this again. Wish me luck regarding the neighbours.
Wow, I thought I was obsessed! Your passion for acoustics takes it to a whole new level :) It's amazing how this hobby can transform our living spaces! There's something so captivating and addictive about it that it could be considered a psychological phenomenon.
Couldn't agree more. People will go and strenuously test speakers at an audio store over countless hours where they are set up perfectly. All the rooms are treated to the point you can hear yourself think. That's the best the speaker will sound.... Then take them home and have zero treatment and be disappointed at the speakers and amplification.
There's no going back after your room is treated properly. I've just moved to a new place and trying to get the acoustics fixed is so important, my hifi sounds completely different in this place which just shows how much of an effect the space has on the sound but it's also fun tuning the room with acoustic treatment and hearing the benefits each panel brings. This is a subject that needs to be very high up the list if you want to hear what your speakers actually sound like. Cheers Terry
I was amazed at how different my system sounded when I moved. It was drastic…and not in the right direction! LOL. Room dynamics play a HUGE role in how a music system sounds!
Diffusion panels are good behind the speakers and in the corners absorption panel in the Centre can work Try and get bass traps in the corners cut off carpet work well, 18 to 24 inches across put 4 blocks of wood top and bottom and 2 in the middle 3 inch across blocks for behind the speakers, and on the opposite corners 10 inches across. A rule of thumb is to have absorption panels either side of the speaker leaving a 6-inch gap where the tweeter would be, in your sitting position have another absorption panels and a 12 inch gap between the pennells for tweeter position absorption panels on ceiling above and behind your speakers that's all that's needed in most circumstances. Best diffusion panels are designed for your room and frequency response and this can be achieved with a quadratic diffuser calculator just use an old pallets to the specification of the calculator, leaving the back open but lining it with 2 inches of open cell foam just a cross member from the pallet to give strength you can cover the pallet with a very open cloth like a sheet 180 thread count or less. Use free software REW to measure your room when designing quadratic diffuser and placement of panels you can see in real time And another benefit is tilting your speakers back for room acoustics Best absorption is natural wool fleece half an inch thick you can buy in big sizes and just folded over hanging off the wall or ceiling. I would leave a gap between your panels Terry on the Ceiling 4" between the middle panel and lying the ceiling with natural fleece. No I don't agree with diffusion alone on the ceiling you better off having absorption with natural wool fleas is the best for lowest frequencies absorbed diffusion possibly on the ends away from the corners
Great video- thanks! We’ve worked with a good number of outside professionals at our studios and media labs. Sadly, as is the case in many fields, too many “professionals” are mostly professionals by definition of them making money at their trade. This became highly apparent in the room acoustics arena several years ago when we got input from 5 of the top firms, who differed in their critical recommendations and priorities, let alone implementation recommendations, more than they concurred. We chose two of the firms to treat our studio and media labs. I should note that these were a combination of double, mass-loaded non-parallel wall rooms, untreated and partially treated rooms. Despite providing “whatever is needed to do a top job budget”, the rooms were nowhere close to what we were looking for. This takes us to the CoVid down-time, where we spent just over 4 months completely redoing all the rooms ourselves. Two of us have moderate acoustic engineering background, and most of us worked in sound recording and reproduction for much of our lives and have significant hands-on experience. We researched, studied, measured and implemented based on our internally derived best practices and desired results. By every measure that matters for recording, mixing and mastering we have MUCH better rooms now, and it cost 1/3 of the well-over 6 figures we had paid to these sound treatment “professionals”.
Great topic. This area of a system / room could easily be 50% of the investment for the best performance from the speakers. Nice to go through all these topics and applications for enthusiast people to consider =)
I've spent quite a bit of time over the past two weeks designing, building and installing a very stealthy automatic TV screen that hovers above my 65” TV and at the push-of-a-button (no Siri here!🤭), a beautiful piece of vintage cloth comes down to esthetically and sonically camouflage my TV screen. It looks cool and I "thought" it would offer great sound enhancing properties during my stereo music listening sessions. Thanks SO MUCH for bursting my sound bubble, Terry! 😂😂😂
I use to deal with Simon Lucas at What Hi Fi, when I ran my audio accessories business back in the 2000s, went Teddington Studios quite a few times, to drop off products for review. Interesting product your reviewing, nice video Tony👍
I have major issues with bass in my tiny lounge, as soon as you sit on the sofa along the back wall the bass turns very boomy and elevated, destroys the mid range, I found a subwoofer helped quite a lot, sounds counterintuitive but the room handles the bass from the sub a lot better than from the speakers (crossed over @ 80hz), also this allowed the speakers to open up a bit in the midrange.
Great Video Terry, Ive chatted with you before and have a very similar room without the front diffusion, I went for doing my whole front wall with soffit traps. Im now saving for the final diffusion pieces to finish it off.
You did a damn good job to get the full potential of any products you review you do. Yes sir that's why you are a credible reviewer. My giant step forward is when I implemented Room Acoustics Treatments. So many HiFi enthusiasts don't get it. listen to the music not the room. I know it's not easy but with some good advice,a lot of research and trial and error you will get great results. You can't do this blind you have to do room measurement and compare before and after to get to your liking.
I think the majority of hifi enthusiasts do not have a dedicated man cave they do anything they want to. For the purposes of sound improvement, I would love to adorn my walls and ceiling with acoustic treatment. Unfortunately, my listening room is also my living room, and we need it to look good and like a normal house for guests.
@@luke9822 Your probably correct. I am fortunate to have my own room and my wife never interferes in its set up.I still like the fact Terry squeezes full potential out of every item he reveiws to get the full prospective of the product.
I wanted to try sound diffusion out. I started with putting cheap plastic barrels in my room... It has circular shape, it is cheap, i already had them.. why not? it was a good starting point... and there was some improvement... not much, but some... and then i got an idea and put water in those barrels... and I was wow!!! I realised - sound cares about mass, thickness, material properties... This got me full crazy, i spend a little bit of money to buy few of those huge 300 litre - 80 gallon plastic barrels... put water in them, and the result: wow! I mean: WOW! - it is like adding suspension - sound became so much smoother. 100 euro speakers sounded better in that room then 1000 euro speakers in untreated one. And this is diffusion, not absorption: so it did not kill a room at all... For best results I did add some absorbing panels too. The secret is in finding a good balance. Point being: if you have a dedicated room, and do not mind looking like a total lunatic: you can get crazy sound for a fraction of a cost. Forget about DACs or cables... If you want good sound: room is where it is at. You do need a decent amplifier and speakers... and if you are willing to go 100% man cave crazy: you will find acoustic quality beyond expectation.
Yes adding treatment will make the room sound different but one must conduct certain measurements to figure out what treatment, how much and where to place. The problem in small rooms with a full range system, you’ll typically have Axial mode pressure problems starting in the 30hz range on up. If you don’t treat those low frequencies, then you low end sounds bad. 8” in deep boxes with building insulation is NOT going to be deep enough to go down to 30hz. Plus your box isn’t a diaphragmatic design which is a pressure activated device. Your boxes aren’t pressure activated design.
@@davidblank7202 you are right, think i am able to absorb about to 50hz then it rolls off to very little at 30hz. i am close to my limit in this room, it is almost no more room left to place any more. and only have space for one corner trap that does the deepest bass. witch is 1.2 meter by 2.3 meter at 45 degree angle. the diy absorber panels is made with hunton nativo isolation material. i really like the effect it had in my room, i would not consider diagram absorber, they are too narrow, i would rather stack my absorbers panels two in thickness, as long as the flow resistivity is right i could absorb to 25hz bass already sounds amazing here, but waterfall plot shows long decay times below 30hz but very short above that, ca 100ms
@@sudd3660 the best low frequency devices I heard were the activated carbon that Acoustic Fields has. I went to visit a demo room they had about 8 years ago and was completely blown away. I read up on activated carbon and it’s probably the best material for life absorption. It’s dense and the most porous substance. I personally stay away from building insulation. Their absorption coefficients don’t look that good in the lower midrange.
Great video Terry. What's important is you explained the purpose of different acoustic treatments & your experiences in a very engaging manner. I look forward to your next video about treatment without purchasing panels. Many people can't afford extensive treatment so how about recommending one or two panels that would make the most difference...?
Thanks for the feedback, I didn't really want to go there with giving out advice, I think its best I leave acoustics advice to the professionals. I am not an expert
Picking two; 1.) Superchunk the corners 2.) Thick first reflection panels (either sidewall or ceiling, depending on need) Of course everyone wants simple, straight forward answers; what to do, 1, 2, 3, ... etc. It's just not that intuitive, as there's many contributing factors.
Chris Allen is a GIK acoustic consultant based around the Cambridge area who's coming to do full room measurements and recommendations including a written report with visual representation. This means that I will finally be able to invest in GIK acoustic treatment and feel confident that I am tackling the troublesome frequencies and not just placing acoustic treatment willy nilly.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I have to say a little thank you because we've spoken over emails here and there regarding Dirac live, av amps etc and you were the one that opened my eyes to it. I'll take a few before and after shots.
Great video Terry I'm about to do the whole room acoustic treatment process now. It really is the next level for me. I've got the rig I just need to get the best out of it and my room is what is holding things back. So when you said it's all about timing you couldn't have timed this video better than you have now for me. Being in Australia I've got to research who can do this for me. I'd like to get someone to come in and measure the room and then make the appropriate suggestions. I don't want to trial and error it, ld rather do it once and do it right. So thanks mate really appreciated you doing this video and I learnt a lot from it. 😁🎧👍
@@PursuitPerfectSystem quick side note Terry got my mini DSP shd set up and did a room sweep this week after going through the complex set up and getting through the 80-page owners manual. It really did confirm that there are some issues in this room. But one thing I could not believe was how it made my Sasha's image even better than they already do. With height width and depth wow! I was able to add the watch Dog 2 sub in and I'm just blown away by how good it sounding in here, and I know once I get the room right it really will be Hi-Fi heaven I don't think I'll come out of this room after that all happens. Lol😂
Acoustic treatment and DSP is going after the same thing buts interesting how different they effect the sound - Dirac in the minidsp allows for an insane level of sound control when you know what your doing. If you have just run the stock curve your only about 50% of where it can get
Really enjoy all your videos, a huge thanks! I have to ask the folks in the comments section. If they had any quality control issues that GIK actually addressed? I unfortunately got a bad batch of panels, the craftsmanship was really bad. I tried calling and emailing for months and just gave up. The person I spoke with was really nice but never would send the return labels it was like he would just continually forget. Basically buyer beware! I never installed them bc they are such a visual eye sore so I can't say if they acoustically it made a difference.
I have bought 46 Acoustic Panels from GIK and never had an experience like that, they always reply to emails and always got back to me about anything that I needed so a weird one that
I’m lucky enough to have a dedicated room Terry for listening and I’ve discovered I need a large sofa directly behind me for the best listening experience and it’s the Bass that improves the most. If I sit on a chair with nothing behind me the Bass sounds distorted even with Acoustic panels around me, but if I place my large Chesterfield sofa close directly behind me the Bass sounds perfect, can’t work out why this is.
Thats really weird because sofas are mostly hollow wood shell with a few cushions on them. Yes they cushions are thick but not that thick and they are horizontal not vertical like a panel or maybe that is something to do with it. Do you have any panels on your ceiling out of curiosity?
@@PursuitPerfectSystem no panels on the ceiling. I have GIK acoustic bass traps in all 4 corners which definitely work , when I take them away I lose loads of detail in the bass. Just leaning forward slightly on the sofa Bass improves massively and yet if I move the sofa forward the distortion is still there so it can’t be a room mode
@@danboy77 I am no expert so I would only guess its something to do with how pressure is building up. You might see what's happening if you did some measurements because it's bloody hard sometimes to hear what's going on and some measuments means you can see it and then understand it - that's the theory anyway haha
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I think I’ll stay away from the measurements, I’m only a novice and I’ve done my head in enough trying to work out what is causing it haha. Have you ever heard Meridian DSP 3200 bookshelf speakers , their the ones I have they sounds massive for their size, really happy with them.
@@danboy77 I used to have a fair bit of meridian kit but not the speakers, I have only heard them a tiny bit and not very well setup so I don't really take much from those demos. Measuring will really mess with your brain and make you obsess over graphs that is the negative side of it, but it is useful for identifying things that are harder to hear :)
Put curtains on all the walls (acoustic) and thick carpet with 20 mm underlay . Very expensive but nothing comes close to this for deading the sound . Curtains can move to alter the sound , closed all the way for movies and opened up for music ,
@@hughkleinsc8949 curtains are too thin to be effective where you need it most. properly designed acoustic treatment is around 4-7inch thick and thicker for bass traps that is how it has a broad band effect across a wide range of frequencies. You still need treatment for music, arguably more than movies
Here's one more easy fix you can make to your cinema room: take two of those subwoofers, and put them in your rear-wall corners. Putting two subs on top of each other just makes a supersub. Putting 4 subs in each corner of the room is the BEST WAY to treat bass modes in a room.
Noticed you mentioned GIK Acoustics throughout your video. I live in New Brunswick Canada and do not have access to this company. Could you recommend another acoustic company in Eastern Canada. Enjoyed you video.
I’m sure you’re right, but I wouldn’t know where to begin. I’ve found that even the best Hi Fi stores in the US, know very little about this topic, not to mention, trying to find someone to come out, and install it for me.
First of all bear with me because my mother tongue is not english. I really enjoyed this video because I love acoustics and also have a highly (but not perfectly) treated room with (mainly) GIK products. My room is a dual usage room (2ch + 7.2.4HT) dimensions in meters are 5.3Lx3.6Wx3.2H. I got 2 monsters behind the speakers, placed horizontally at midpoint level between midrange and tweeter. Above them there are 3 HOFA diffusers. First reflections on the sides are treated with 2 244 placed vertically. Next to each 244, I got another monster placed horizontally to treat secondary reflections and also the primary reflections from the center channel. Above each of theses monster, there are three membrane based basstraps (not GIK, tuned at 100Hz) with an MLS pattern on the front plate. Next to the horizontal monster, just at the side of the MLP there is a DIY QRD (2D). At the back wall, just behind the MLP, there are 2 244 and at the side of the 244 there are 2 QRD (1D). Ceiling is dropped and consists of black rockwool tiles with low light reflectivity, the same used in commercial cinemas. Placed on the center the ceiling there are 5 HOFA diffusors. Floor to ceiling corners are treated using Tritraps. Sound improved a lot with and everything is more clear and focused. The room is quiet, but not dead. A better placement of the main speakers (SF Venere 2.5) and eq/bass management from my Marantz SR7011 (mains cut at 60Hz) improved the sound further more as now even in 2ch my system uses the subs, 2 REL Stampede and 2 Mission M6AS.
I treated my room improperly and it was worse than no treatment at all. I put 4" absorbers all over the place and the treble and upper bass was just gone. Kind of remarkable really.
If you think about it its impossible for you to put anything on the walls that will effect the speakers sound. Maybe the speakers were rolled off and not right for the new room and upper bass could be for a whole host of reasons- such as speaker placement or maybe again its the speakers. Think about it locally how can anything you put on the walls take away the sound from the speaker taking away the reflection just tells you more of the truth of what the speaker and system sounds like - worth considering
I really appreciate your videos. I find very few audiophile youtubers that talk seriuosly about acoustical treatments with real world examples. And even more - the combination of acoustical treatment and digital room correction. If I may wish, I would like you to visit different treated listening rooms in order for us to get inspiration and new ideas.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I understand. Next time (?) you go to Sweden/Stockholm, I will glady host you👍 I have a well treated listening room, and I use Anthems ARC room correction in addition.
@pursuitperfectsystem Hey Terry I just found your channel thank you for the great reviews! Question. How far do you sit from the ceiling diffusers. I’m only 5 feet away so not sure if the GIK gridfusors would work. Thanks again, new sub!
There is a mathematic equation you can do to judge the distance from a diffusor for its lowest freq effectiveness the panels on my ceiling only do the highest freq anyway - maybe contact GIK and ask them. My ceiling is 8 and a bit feet
Terry, what’s your take on near-field listening, as a way to minimize the rooms impact on the sound? Also, would Dirac affect the sound in near-field, where the sound reaches your ears before it hits the walls?
I think nearfield listening would def take away the reflected sound from the initial listening time window and there would be benefits of that - some negatives too as that is how it is with sound. I have used Dirac with a couple of pairs of speakers sat on my desk about 2-3 feet away from me and it worked as I expected, so yes pretty sure it would work the same
The best upgrade, is actually being able to USE the hifi. When the person / people you live with has a vastly different appreciation of volume, then no Room Acoustics will help
The most important topic about hifi! I always laugh when the people want more and more expensive speakers without any acoustic treatment first! IF YOU REALLY WANT HIFI SOUND, YOU NEED ACOUSTIC TREATMENT! It doesnt matter which speakers, amplifiers, cables, etc you have!
Hi Terry. Thanks for the informative video. I’ve been watching a number of your Dirac videos having just purchased an AVR30 for my lounge and an AVR850 for my cinema room. I’d not played with Dirac much but have found it to be really good so far. I’’m wondering how much Dirac can do versus the kind of physical room treatments you have invested in. I appreciate that in an ideal situation you would optimise the room before trying to “fix” it with digital room correction but I wonder how close you can get. Also have you tried using Dirac for stereo listening - I’m having issues as I can’t work out how to apply it to an analogue signal but I want to use an external DAC - I just feel Dirac could be a great solution in my room. Should I be able to apply Dirac filters to an analogue signal on an AVR850? Thanks in advance
Off topic but I could really use your advice. For mainly movie watching I'm choosing between the Wharfedale Evo4 and the Arendal 1723 THX as my LCR. Since you've had both in hand to review which of the 2 would you suggest that I go for? Thanks.
Might be a strange question, but do these treatments also help to limit the sound that gets transferred to other rooms? I feel I'm not enjoying my system to the fullest with the idea that I'm bothering the neighbours. Or even people that live in the same house!
To a degree yes, but sound isolation does require a specific approach - this will help reduce airborne sound pollution but structural or impact sound requires more
The visceral tactility that accompanies nearfield subwoofing can go a long way toward less disturbance outside the room. Pyscho-acoustically, the listener can be suitably satisfied via impactful LF at lower listening levels. Nothing lowers unwanted external sound leakage like lowering it at the source.
I sit 1.5m from my speakers so nearfield and my sofa is on the back wall. I could put some room treatment behind the speakers and maybe some behind me. What would you go for?
Both - if I only could do one it would be behind me as that is where 100% of the sound goes - only bass goes backwards - so the back wall (wall behind you) is more of a priority and go as thick as you can
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Thank you Terry!I can imagine, I'm very curious to know what you think, who knows if it is superior to the old NuVista 800. Have you ever heard the old 250W Gryphon Diablo? Have a nice day
I havent checked that in a while, after I made the big changes a few years ago I was around 0.27 -0.3ms to about 100hz and it started to rise. Waterfall was good for bass too besides the uneven freq reposnee but bass was below 500ms. This is from memory it was a while ago
Great, nice info, it seems you had to chase it a bit… but I guess that’s normal for this hobby… my room is an average of 300ms and I have had trouble finding someone to explain how low I should try to get for reflection…anyway thank you Sir….
@@markhouseholder I think mine was probably a little low at below 0.3ms I found a guide that suggested 0.3-0.5ms and that sounded about right to me. This is before I started adding some diffusion so I guessed I was a little higher now but its low compared to the 0.7ms+ where I started.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Introducing more plastic is the last thing the earth needs. No matter how well it performs acoustically. Especially for a non essential item where reasonable alternatives. exist.
@@antonioinacioconceicaoreis9004 not necessarily it will depend on lots of things maybe contact GIK and ask them to suggest what would be good for your room. Their advice is free
Loads of words not a single measurement. Omfg 😱 With all the respect here: Room acoustics is a very difficult topic and highly scientific. There are no ifs or maybes here. Don't get yourself fooled around by thinking u can get away with slapping a few panels on the wall and ceiling. Get a highly skilled person with proper equipment to come over and measure your room properly. And even then u need to remember you will get different results with different speakers. I met once a professor from university that happened to be an audiophile, the first thing he showed me when I asked about the great acoustic was the equipment he measured the room with. There were no fancy panels there bare in mind.
To be honest a measurement of before and after would be impossible for me as a lot of my treatment is hard fixed in place. RT60 is around 0.3ms so I am happy with that
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Once you happy that's ok. I just wanted to say it's not as simple as it might sound. Even Different types of music require different treatment as well. It's such a complicated matter none of the panels will cure immediately and the results might not be satisfying. I'm a hard believer that it's better to stick with the approach of getting the right speakers to the side of the room then placing them correctly and filling the room with normal damping material, books, sofa, cabinets with CDs or vinyl, carpets etc.
Hi Terry, what a superb video. I've been Hi Fi enthusiast for 50 years and my experience with room acoustics and treatment completely agrees with your video. Many audio enthusiasts don't realise that the room acoustics are more important than the quality of their audio system.
As I am learning the hard way.
I have a room full of GIK acoustic panels 18 in total including a cloud panel and my system sounds fantastic. I can hear performers with great clarity and tonality and it sounds more real. You need advice to get the right balance a d GIK helped me do that. Addressing the bass in my room was a priority and with extensive bass traps in the corners my speaker’s bass response is now deep, tight and varied -far from the one-note bass i had before. Anyone who wants to really hear their system needs acoustic treatment as there will be issues. Side panels that absorb the first reflection point make a huge difference to imaging. I highly recommended GIK Acoustics if you want to treat your room.
Hi Terry, over 40 years ago I was living with my mother and had a system that consisted of Wharfedale Glendale speakers, a Leak Delta 70 amplifier and a Trio KD1033 turntable. On one fine summers day I took the system out into the large back garden and it sounded great. No walls, no ceiling and no corners to degrade the sound. I kept the volume fairly low to not upset any neighbours. However, one neighbour a few houses away who was in his garden said it sounded amazing and asked me to do it again. I now live 700 feet up a big hill in Wales with Tannoy's and lots of amplifier power so I may try try doing this again. Wish me luck regarding the neighbours.
Hahaha thats a great comment Jim
Wow, I thought I was obsessed! Your passion for acoustics takes it to a whole new level :) It's amazing how this hobby can transform our living spaces! There's something so captivating and addictive about it that it could be considered a psychological phenomenon.
Couldn't agree more. People will go and strenuously test speakers at an audio store over countless hours where they are set up perfectly. All the rooms are treated to the point you can hear yourself think. That's the best the speaker will sound.... Then take them home and have zero treatment and be disappointed at the speakers and amplification.
There's no going back after your room is treated properly. I've just moved to a new place and trying to get the acoustics fixed is so important, my hifi sounds completely different in this place which just shows how much of an effect the space has on the sound but it's also fun tuning the room with acoustic treatment and hearing the benefits each panel brings. This is a subject that needs to be very high up the list if you want to hear what your speakers actually sound like. Cheers Terry
I was amazed at how different my system sounded when I moved. It was drastic…and not in the right direction! LOL. Room dynamics play a HUGE role in how a music system sounds!
Diffusion panels are good behind the speakers and in the corners absorption panel in the Centre can work
Try and get bass traps in the corners cut off carpet work well, 18 to 24 inches across put 4 blocks of wood top and bottom and 2 in the middle 3 inch across blocks for behind the speakers, and on the opposite corners 10 inches across.
A rule of thumb is to have absorption panels either side of the speaker leaving a 6-inch gap where the tweeter would be, in your sitting position have another absorption panels and a 12 inch gap between the pennells for tweeter position absorption panels on ceiling above and behind your speakers that's all that's needed in most circumstances.
Best diffusion panels are designed for your room and frequency response and this can be achieved with a quadratic diffuser calculator just use an old pallets to the specification of the calculator, leaving the back open but lining it with 2 inches of open cell foam just a cross member from the pallet to give strength you can cover the pallet with a very open cloth like a sheet 180 thread count or less.
Use free software REW to measure your room when designing quadratic diffuser and placement of panels you can see in real time
And another benefit is tilting your speakers back for room acoustics
Best absorption is natural wool fleece half an inch thick you can buy in big sizes and just folded over hanging off the wall or ceiling.
I would leave a gap between your panels Terry on the Ceiling 4" between the middle panel and lying the ceiling with natural fleece.
No I don't agree with diffusion alone on the ceiling you better off having absorption with natural wool fleas is the best for lowest frequencies absorbed diffusion possibly on the ends away from the corners
Man, this is a great educational video, thank you Terry.
Great video- thanks!
We’ve worked with a good number of outside professionals at our studios and media labs. Sadly, as is the case in many fields, too many “professionals” are mostly professionals by definition of them making money at their trade. This became highly apparent in the room acoustics arena several years ago when we got input from 5 of the top firms, who differed in their critical recommendations and priorities, let alone implementation recommendations, more than they concurred. We chose two of the firms to treat our studio and media labs. I should note that these were a combination of double, mass-loaded non-parallel wall rooms, untreated and partially treated rooms. Despite providing “whatever is needed to do a top job budget”, the rooms were nowhere close to what we were looking for.
This takes us to the CoVid down-time, where we spent just over 4 months completely redoing all the rooms ourselves. Two of us have moderate acoustic engineering background, and most of us worked in sound recording and reproduction for much of our lives and have significant hands-on experience. We researched, studied, measured and implemented based on our internally derived best practices and desired results.
By every measure that matters for recording, mixing and mastering we have MUCH better rooms now, and it cost 1/3 of the well-over 6 figures we had paid to these sound treatment “professionals”.
Wow you've got through a lot on this one... thanks mate! I appreciate your hard work and giving us some of your insights
Excellent video, Terry! Have never ever heard anyone explain the main principles so clearly!
Really appreciate Terry's honesty and experience. Best audio reviewer on UA-cam.
Thanks Peter
Great topic. This area of a system / room could easily be 50% of the investment for the best performance from the speakers.
Nice to go through all these topics and applications for enthusiast people to consider =)
I've spent quite a bit of time over the past two weeks designing, building and installing a very stealthy automatic TV screen that hovers above my 65” TV and at the push-of-a-button (no Siri here!🤭), a beautiful piece of vintage cloth comes down to esthetically and sonically camouflage my TV screen. It looks cool and I "thought" it would offer great sound enhancing properties during my stereo music listening sessions. Thanks SO MUCH for bursting my sound bubble, Terry! 😂😂😂
Hahaha sorry Bob
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Terry…it's HYSTERICAL! I still love my screen! 👍🏼😎
I use to deal with Simon Lucas at What Hi Fi, when I ran my audio accessories business back in the 2000s, went Teddington Studios quite a few times, to drop off products for review. Interesting product your reviewing, nice video Tony👍
I have major issues with bass in my tiny lounge, as soon as you sit on the sofa along the back wall the bass turns very boomy and elevated, destroys the mid range, I found a subwoofer helped quite a lot, sounds counterintuitive but the room handles the bass from the sub a lot better than from the speakers (crossed over @ 80hz), also this allowed the speakers to open up a bit in the midrange.
Thats an interesting situation thr benefit of the sub could be for a whole host of reasons
I have the same issue lol, sitting on the sofa = boomy bass
Great Video Terry, Ive chatted with you before and have a very similar room without the front diffusion, I went for doing my whole front wall with soffit traps. Im now saving for the final diffusion pieces to finish it off.
Great channel ! Glad to hear your musings in an honest and straightforward fashion. Keep it up 👆
You did a damn good job to get the full potential of any products you review you do. Yes sir that's why you are a credible reviewer. My giant step forward is when I implemented Room Acoustics Treatments.
So many HiFi enthusiasts don't get it. listen to the music not the room. I know it's not easy but with some good advice,a lot of research and trial and error you will get great results. You can't do this blind you have to do room measurement and compare before and after to get to your liking.
I think the majority of hifi enthusiasts do not have a dedicated man cave they do anything they want to. For the purposes of sound improvement, I would love to adorn my walls and ceiling with acoustic treatment. Unfortunately, my listening room is also my living room, and we need it to look good and like a normal house for guests.
@@luke9822 Your probably correct. I am fortunate to have my own room and my wife never interferes in its set up.I still like the fact Terry squeezes full potential out of every item he reveiws to get the full prospective of the product.
Thanks Terry
I really appreciate this video! Thanks!
I wanted to try sound diffusion out. I started with putting cheap plastic barrels in my room... It has circular shape, it is cheap, i already had them.. why not? it was a good starting point... and there was some improvement... not much, but some... and then i got an idea and put water in those barrels... and I was wow!!! I realised - sound cares about mass, thickness, material properties... This got me full crazy, i spend a little bit of money to buy few of those huge 300 litre - 80 gallon plastic barrels... put water in them, and the result: wow! I mean: WOW! - it is like adding suspension - sound became so much smoother. 100 euro speakers sounded better in that room then 1000 euro speakers in untreated one. And this is diffusion, not absorption: so it did not kill a room at all... For best results I did add some absorbing panels too. The secret is in finding a good balance.
Point being: if you have a dedicated room, and do not mind looking like a total lunatic: you can get crazy sound for a fraction of a cost. Forget about DACs or cables... If you want good sound: room is where it is at. You do need a decent amplifier and speakers... and if you are willing to go 100% man cave crazy: you will find acoustic quality beyond expectation.
Possibly your most indepth analysis ever.
i have a small room and the more absorption i put in the better acoustics i have. the six large 8" thick diy panels was the biggest improvement.
Yes adding treatment will make the room sound different but one must conduct certain measurements to figure out what treatment, how much and where to place. The problem in small rooms with a full range system, you’ll typically have Axial mode pressure problems starting in the 30hz range on up. If you don’t treat those low frequencies, then you low end sounds bad. 8” in deep boxes with building insulation is NOT going to be deep enough to go down to 30hz. Plus your box isn’t a diaphragmatic design which is a pressure activated device. Your boxes aren’t pressure activated design.
@@davidblank7202 you are right, think i am able to absorb about to 50hz then it rolls off to very little at 30hz.
i am close to my limit in this room, it is almost no more room left to place any more. and only have space for one corner trap that does the deepest bass. witch is 1.2 meter by 2.3 meter at 45 degree angle.
the diy absorber panels is made with hunton nativo isolation material.
i really like the effect it had in my room, i would not consider diagram absorber, they are too narrow, i would rather stack my absorbers panels two in thickness, as long as the flow resistivity is right i could absorb to 25hz
bass already sounds amazing here, but waterfall plot shows long decay times below 30hz but very short above that, ca 100ms
@@sudd3660 too narrow? You can build diaphragmatic absorption into the wall and ceiling that way you have no boxes other than foam and diffusers.
@@sudd3660 Hinton? Which material are you using?
@@sudd3660 the best low frequency devices I heard were the activated carbon that Acoustic Fields has. I went to visit a demo room they had about 8 years ago and was completely blown away. I read up on activated carbon and it’s probably the best material for life absorption. It’s dense and the most porous substance. I personally stay away from building insulation. Their absorption coefficients don’t look that good in the lower midrange.
I love my first order reflections they are my decay markers
Great video Terry. What's important is you explained the purpose of different acoustic treatments & your experiences in a very engaging manner.
I look forward to your next video about treatment without purchasing panels. Many people can't afford extensive treatment so how about recommending one or two panels that would make the most difference...?
Thanks for the feedback, I didn't really want to go there with giving out advice, I think its best I leave acoustics advice to the professionals. I am not an expert
Picking two;
1.) Superchunk the corners
2.) Thick first reflection panels (either sidewall or ceiling, depending on need)
Of course everyone wants simple, straight forward answers; what to do, 1, 2, 3, ... etc.
It's just not that intuitive, as there's many contributing factors.
Chris Allen is a GIK acoustic consultant based around the Cambridge area who's coming to do full room measurements and recommendations including a written report with visual representation. This means that I will finally be able to invest in GIK acoustic treatment and feel confident that I am tackling the troublesome frequencies and not just placing acoustic treatment willy nilly.
Wow that is great and it does take away what I went through which was best guestimations
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I have to say a little thank you because we've spoken over emails here and there regarding Dirac live, av amps etc and you were the one that opened my eyes to it. I'll take a few before and after shots.
@@GurjeetSagoo I thought I recognised the name and happy to help :)
hi Terry, love your reviews , i have goodmans dimension 8 semi-omni-directional speakers they seem to work with the room rather than against it
Great video Terry I'm about to do the whole room acoustic treatment process now.
It really is the next level for me. I've got the rig I just need to get the best out of it and my room is what is holding things back.
So when you said it's all about timing you couldn't have timed this video better than you have now for me.
Being in Australia I've got to research who can do this for me.
I'd like to get someone to come in and measure the room and then make the appropriate suggestions.
I don't want to trial and error it, ld rather do it once and do it right.
So thanks mate really appreciated you doing this video and I learnt a lot from it. 😁🎧👍
Timing is everything, on so many levels that saying 😅
@@PursuitPerfectSystem absolutely Terry 😂
@@PursuitPerfectSystem quick side note Terry got my mini DSP shd set up and did a room sweep this week after going through the complex set up and getting through the 80-page owners manual. It really did confirm that there are some issues in this room. But one thing I could not believe was how it made my Sasha's image even better than they already do. With height width and depth wow! I was able to add the watch Dog 2 sub in and I'm just blown away by how good it sounding in here, and I know once I get the room right it really will be Hi-Fi heaven I don't think I'll come out of this room after that all happens. Lol😂
Acoustic treatment and DSP is going after the same thing buts interesting how different they effect the sound - Dirac in the minidsp allows for an insane level of sound control when you know what your doing. If you have just run the stock curve your only about 50% of where it can get
Great video, and surprisingly timely for me too, many thanks.
Really enjoy all your videos, a huge thanks! I have to ask the folks in the comments section. If they had any quality control issues that GIK actually addressed? I unfortunately got a bad batch of panels, the craftsmanship was really bad. I tried calling and emailing for months and just gave up. The person I spoke with was really nice but never would send the return labels it was like he would just continually forget. Basically buyer beware! I never installed them bc they are such a visual eye sore so I can't say if they acoustically it made a difference.
I have bought 46 Acoustic Panels from GIK and never had an experience like that, they always reply to emails and always got back to me about anything that I needed so a weird one that
I’m lucky enough to have a dedicated room Terry for listening and I’ve discovered I need a large sofa directly behind me for the best listening experience and it’s the Bass that improves the most. If I sit on a chair with nothing behind me the Bass sounds distorted even with Acoustic panels around me, but if I place my large Chesterfield sofa close directly behind me the Bass sounds perfect, can’t work out why this is.
Thats really weird because sofas are mostly hollow wood shell with a few cushions on them. Yes they cushions are thick but not that thick and they are horizontal not vertical like a panel or maybe that is something to do with it. Do you have any panels on your ceiling out of curiosity?
@@PursuitPerfectSystem no panels on the ceiling. I have GIK acoustic bass traps in all 4 corners which definitely work , when I take them away I lose loads of detail in the bass. Just leaning forward slightly on the sofa Bass improves massively and yet if I move the sofa forward the distortion is still there so it can’t be a room mode
@@danboy77 I am no expert so I would only guess its something to do with how pressure is building up. You might see what's happening if you did some measurements because it's bloody hard sometimes to hear what's going on and some measuments means you can see it and then understand it - that's the theory anyway haha
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I think I’ll stay away from the measurements, I’m only a novice and I’ve done my head in enough trying to work out what is causing it haha. Have you ever heard Meridian DSP 3200 bookshelf speakers , their the ones I have they sounds massive for their size, really happy with them.
@@danboy77 I used to have a fair bit of meridian kit but not the speakers, I have only heard them a tiny bit and not very well setup so I don't really take much from those demos. Measuring will really mess with your brain and make you obsess over graphs that is the negative side of it, but it is useful for identifying things that are harder to hear :)
Put curtains on all the walls (acoustic) and thick carpet with 20 mm underlay . Very expensive but nothing comes close to this for deading the sound . Curtains can move to alter the sound , closed all the way for movies and opened up for music ,
@@hughkleinsc8949 curtains are too thin to be effective where you need it most. properly designed acoustic treatment is around 4-7inch thick and thicker for bass traps that is how it has a broad band effect across a wide range of frequencies. You still need treatment for music, arguably more than movies
U can also use hybrid pannels
Here's one more easy fix you can make to your cinema room: take two of those subwoofers, and put them in your rear-wall corners. Putting two subs on top of each other just makes a supersub. Putting 4 subs in each corner of the room is the BEST WAY to treat bass modes in a room.
Yes but that would not be better for being on camera and not as much fun.. I made a whole video talking about this as part of the review of the 4 subs
Noticed you mentioned GIK Acoustics throughout your video. I live in New Brunswick Canada and do not have access to this company. Could you recommend another acoustic company in Eastern Canada. Enjoyed you video.
I’m sure you’re right, but I wouldn’t know where to begin. I’ve found that even the best Hi Fi stores in the US, know very little about this topic, not to mention, trying to find someone to come out, and install it for me.
First of all bear with me because my mother tongue is not english. I really enjoyed this video because I love acoustics and also have a highly (but not perfectly) treated room with (mainly) GIK products. My room is a dual usage room (2ch + 7.2.4HT) dimensions in meters are 5.3Lx3.6Wx3.2H. I got 2 monsters behind the speakers, placed horizontally at midpoint level between midrange and tweeter. Above them there are 3 HOFA diffusers. First reflections on the sides are treated with 2 244 placed vertically. Next to each 244, I got another monster placed horizontally to treat secondary reflections and also the primary reflections from the center channel. Above each of theses monster, there are three membrane based basstraps (not GIK, tuned at 100Hz) with an MLS pattern on the front plate. Next to the horizontal monster, just at the side of the MLP there is a DIY QRD (2D). At the back wall, just behind the MLP, there are 2 244 and at the side of the 244 there are 2 QRD (1D). Ceiling is dropped and consists of black rockwool tiles with low light reflectivity, the same used in commercial cinemas. Placed on the center the ceiling there are 5 HOFA diffusors. Floor to ceiling corners are treated using Tritraps. Sound improved a lot with and everything is more clear and focused. The room is quiet, but not dead. A better placement of the main speakers (SF Venere 2.5) and eq/bass management from my Marantz SR7011 (mains cut at 60Hz) improved the sound further more as now even in 2ch my system uses the subs, 2 REL Stampede and 2 Mission M6AS.
Cacophony is the word.
I treated my room improperly and it was worse than no treatment at all. I put 4" absorbers all over the place and the treble and upper bass was just gone. Kind of remarkable really.
If you think about it its impossible for you to put anything on the walls that will effect the speakers sound.
Maybe the speakers were rolled off and not right for the new room and upper bass could be for a whole host of reasons- such as speaker placement or maybe again its the speakers.
Think about it locally how can anything you put on the walls take away the sound from the speaker taking away the reflection just tells you more of the truth of what the speaker and system sounds like - worth considering
I really appreciate your videos. I find very few audiophile youtubers that talk seriuosly about acoustical treatments with real world examples. And even more - the combination of acoustical treatment and digital room correction.
If I may wish, I would like you to visit different treated listening rooms in order for us to get inspiration and new ideas.
I would do that but I dont of any I could visit
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I understand. Next time (?) you go to Sweden/Stockholm, I will glady host you👍 I have a well treated listening room, and I use Anthems ARC room correction in addition.
@@hakanohlgren I am Dirac man though what would we do about that :)
@@PursuitPerfectSystem 😅 Well, I'm a tolerant man...😅
@pursuitperfectsystem Hey Terry I just found your channel thank you for the great reviews! Question. How far do you sit from the ceiling diffusers. I’m only 5 feet away so not sure if the GIK gridfusors would work. Thanks again, new sub!
There is a mathematic equation you can do to judge the distance from a diffusor for its lowest freq effectiveness the panels on my ceiling only do the highest freq anyway - maybe contact GIK and ask them. My ceiling is 8 and a bit feet
@@PursuitPerfectSystem perfect thank you!
Terry, what’s your take on near-field listening, as a way to minimize the rooms impact on the sound?
Also, would Dirac affect the sound in near-field, where the sound reaches your ears before it hits the walls?
I think nearfield listening would def take away the reflected sound from the initial listening time window and there would be benefits of that - some negatives too as that is how it is with sound. I have used Dirac with a couple of pairs of speakers sat on my desk about 2-3 feet away from me and it worked as I expected, so yes pretty sure it would work the same
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Thank you. Appreciate your thoughts on that
Cool video
Thanks Nick
Any idea when those new diffusor panels will be available ?
They look like just what i want.
The best upgrade, is actually being able to USE the hifi. When the person / people you live with has a vastly different appreciation of volume, then no Room Acoustics will help
The most important topic about hifi! I always laugh when the people want more and more expensive speakers without any acoustic treatment first! IF YOU REALLY WANT HIFI SOUND, YOU NEED ACOUSTIC TREATMENT! It doesnt matter which speakers, amplifiers, cables, etc you have!
Absolutely right... the most important topic, and it's not even close.
Hi Terry. Thanks for the informative video. I’ve been watching a number of your Dirac videos having just purchased an AVR30 for my lounge and an AVR850 for my cinema room. I’d not played with Dirac much but have found it to be really good so far. I’’m wondering how much Dirac can do versus the kind of physical room treatments you have invested in. I appreciate that in an ideal situation you would optimise the room before trying to “fix” it with digital room correction but I wonder how close you can get. Also have you tried using Dirac for stereo listening - I’m having issues as I can’t work out how to apply it to an analogue signal but I want to use an external DAC - I just feel Dirac could be a great solution in my room. Should I be able to apply Dirac filters to an analogue signal on an AVR850? Thanks in advance
Off topic but I could really use your advice. For mainly movie watching I'm choosing between the Wharfedale Evo4 and the Arendal 1723 THX as my LCR. Since you've had both in hand to review which of the 2 would you suggest that I go for? Thanks.
Double sided adhesive velcro can stick to the polystyrene ?
It has been for me yes, I used quite a lot of it but its held up for years
Might be a strange question, but do these treatments also help to limit the sound that gets transferred to other rooms? I feel I'm not enjoying my system to the fullest with the idea that I'm bothering the neighbours. Or even people that live in the same house!
To a degree yes, but sound isolation does require a specific approach - this will help reduce airborne sound pollution but structural or impact sound requires more
If the room was not built for sound isolation, listening at loud levels will travel to the neighbours. Mostly the bass frequencies.
The visceral tactility that accompanies nearfield subwoofing can go a long way toward less disturbance outside the room.
Pyscho-acoustically, the listener can be suitably satisfied via impactful LF at lower listening levels.
Nothing lowers unwanted external sound leakage like lowering it at the source.
I sit 1.5m from my speakers so nearfield and my sofa is on the back wall. I could put some room treatment behind the speakers and maybe some behind me. What would you go for?
Both - if I only could do one it would be behind me as that is where 100% of the sound goes - only bass goes backwards - so the back wall (wall behind you) is more of a priority and go as thick as you can
@@PursuitPerfectSystem I’ve dropped a message over to GIK to see what they recommend in terms of the e right product.
@@DaveSHarris nice !!
Please review the Musical Fidelity M8xi it seems a really good integreted amplifier!!!
I will see if I get the chance but I have a lot on at the minute
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Thank you Terry!I can imagine, I'm very curious to know what you think, who knows if it is superior to the old NuVista 800. Have you ever heard the old 250W Gryphon Diablo? Have a nice day
So what is your rt60, spectrum and waterfall for the room after all these treatments?
I havent checked that in a while, after I made the big changes a few years ago I was around 0.27 -0.3ms to about 100hz and it started to rise. Waterfall was good for bass too besides the uneven freq reposnee but bass was below 500ms. This is from memory it was a while ago
Great, nice info, it seems you had to chase it a bit… but I guess that’s normal for this hobby… my room is an average of 300ms and I have had trouble finding someone to explain how low I should try to get for reflection…anyway thank you Sir….
@@markhouseholder I think mine was probably a little low at below 0.3ms I found a guide that suggested 0.3-0.5ms and that sounded about right to me. This is before I started adding some diffusion so I guessed I was a little higher now but its low compared to the 0.7ms+ where I started.
You sounded a bit stressed out talking about your acoustic panel addiction ; )
What would be the size of your room Terry?
It’s small about 16feet long 12 and a bit wide and 8 and a bit tall
Hopefully, that white GIK diffuser is not made of plastic, for that would be inexcusable.
What could it be made of that is light enough to go on a ceiling?
Perhaps it's not ideal, but plastic is actually fine. Diffuse scattering yet allows the bottom octaves thru for greater 𝘱𝘰𝘵𝘦𝘯𝘵𝘪𝘢𝘭 absorption.
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Introducing more plastic is the last thing the earth needs. No matter how well it performs acoustically. Especially for a non essential item where reasonable alternatives. exist.
The difusor make good diference? I just have absorb painel !!
They can do yes
@@PursuitPerfectSystem which best place to put difuser? Between speakers like your?
@@antonioinacioconceicaoreis9004 not necessarily it will depend on lots of things maybe contact GIK and ask them to suggest what would be good for your room. Their advice is free
Loads of words not a single measurement. Omfg 😱
With all the respect here:
Room acoustics is a very difficult topic and highly scientific. There are no ifs or maybes here. Don't get yourself fooled around by thinking u can get away with slapping a few panels on the wall and ceiling.
Get a highly skilled person with proper equipment to come over and measure your room properly. And even then u need to remember you will get different results with different speakers.
I met once a professor from university that happened to be an audiophile, the first thing he showed me when I asked about the great acoustic was the equipment he measured the room with. There were no fancy panels there bare in mind.
To be honest a measurement of before and after would be impossible for me as a lot of my treatment is hard fixed in place.
RT60 is around 0.3ms so I am happy with that
@@PursuitPerfectSystem Once you happy that's ok. I just wanted to say it's not as simple as it might sound. Even Different types of music require different treatment as well. It's such a complicated matter none of the panels will cure immediately and the results might not be satisfying.
I'm a hard believer that it's better to stick with the approach of getting the right speakers to the side of the room then placing them correctly and filling the room with normal damping material, books, sofa, cabinets with CDs or vinyl, carpets etc.
why are gik acoustics selling polystyrene for £ 131 onwards. what a ripoff !!
£131 for 4 £31 each seems more than reasonable to me I bought 2 boxes
@@PursuitPerfectSystem thats ok then.thought it was for 1 panel.