Hobbyist vs Industrial FDM 3D Printing: Toys or Tools?
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- Опубліковано 5 сер 2024
- There are two distinct worlds of 3D printing, the Hobbyist community and Functional 3D Printing world. The Hobbyist world has mostly been toys and trinkets while the industrial side has been extremely expensive and secretive. Now is the time to upgrade your Hobbyist 3D printing to a new level and upgrade your skills. There is a growing demand and need in the Functional 3D printing world. We’ll discuss the differences, why you should upgrade, and how to move from Hobbyist into the Functional 3D Printing World.
At Vision Miner, we specialize in Functional 3D printing, especially high-performance plastics like PEEK, ULTEM, PPSU, PPS, CFPA, and more. If you're interested in using functional 3D printing and materials in your business, feel free to reach out, and we can help you make the right choice for your application. Call 833-774-6863 or email contact@visionminer.com, and we're here to help! At Vision Miner, we specialize in Functional 3D printing, especially high-performance plastics like PEEK, ULTEM, PPSU, PPS, CFPA, and more. We also have extensive experience with 3D scanners, and a whole array of solutions available for purchase. If you're interested in using functional 3D printing and materials in your business, feel free to reach out, and we can help you make the right choice for your application.
Call 833-774-6863 or email contact@visionminer.com, and we're here to help!
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I Used to be a turbo racing car guy....then I was a model helicopter guy.... Then i moved to a city where i couldnt have cars or helicopters. Now I've bought Prusa Mk3, and watching your videos has got me thought crafting the heated chamber and custom hot end setup so I can print PEEK parts for my next project car :)
This is why I like this channel. You have a niche of helping people who understand that higher quality equipment is simply a better option for business case users like me. I found this video spelled out why thst is in a succinct way. My question is "at what price point does one begin to see diminishing returns in the commercial 3d printing market"? I understand this is a complex question to answer.
Thank you bro..i am still learning about the final part of 3 d printing, which is the brain out from it.
Love this style of video, informative yet catchy, realistic to scare off the faint of heart to invest in knowledgeable assistance to get the job done.
Amen! I like that -- realistic enough to scare off the faint of heart. We really make sure all our clients are READY to start 3D Printing -- these are no microwaves, but they sure are awesome!
Thank you for this video
most useful discussion i've seen... good job, thanks :)
At its current stage my Ender 3 prints very nicely with a variety of engineering filaments, namely carbon and glass filled nylons, ASA and PC. That said, that’s the cap. There’s a lot that can be done with like a HT-CF PA12, but PEEK or PEKK aren’t happening. As it stands I’ll be grateful and work my way up to a true pro machine, but it’s good to know that more complex plastics are very much capable of being printed well on cheap machines with careful upgrades
I know this is an old comment, but do you mind sharing what the upgrades are? Thanks!
@@rizalardiansyah4486 Honestly doesn't take much. Need a hotend that can get up to around 300 C and a hardened nozzle for filaments that contain carbon fiber. And an enclosure.
Thanks guys ! This is a really informative video. One of your best as far as I'm concerned.
I was 1 of those people who modified my Prusa Mk3 with my own designed and constructed water cooled hot end which has actually been rather successful. But that still doesn't achieve what I'm after. So on to phase 2, and the construction of my "mega printer" one cubic meter print volume, and the ability to print high tech / high temperature materials.! 1 of the ways I plan to save a lot of $$$ is not to use extruded /bolted together frame parts . And instead I am using welded steel to create a solid immovable but inexpensive frame. I sacrifice the mobility and ability to make future changes easily , but there is a huge cost savings and let's face it once you build these things you're really not moving them anyway. :-).
The final technical hurdle for me to conquer is in the selection of a heat bed material that is stiff and yet warp resistant with low thermal expansion coefficients. But one which can withstand the forces of printing with the technical materials.
Perhaps a "sandwich" of materials? Any suggestions?
We can do custom sizes of our new-version high-temperature carbon-fiber plates, good up to 200C -- there are some other things in the works, as well, so let us know what you need and we'll do our best to help :)
Awesome breakdown!
Would love to see an updated to this video.. for example, the many of the smartest people that made DJI the standard for drones, are now tackling 3d printers and once again seem to be raising the bar with Bambu!
Aside from speed and print size, where do the industrial FDMs still have a considerable advantage over the X1C? Materials like PEEK/PAEK/PEKK? I'm interested in making extremely strong parts that can handle some heat as well.
Ultem ❤️❤️❤️ 3D printed mechanical squonk mods!
I’m new to 3D printing I got a Anet and a ANYCUBIC Mega X I’m looking to move towards industrial
Great video, love the info on industrial printers!
How about a video about heated chambers. The components
Temp needed for different filament
Materials that can withstand stand the temperature inside.
The electrical components, how to protect/cool them.
Thanks for bridging the gap between hobbyist and engineering. I'm fascinated by 3D printing but have zero interest in printing figurines and trinkets, and that seems to be all the hobbyists ever do. If I ever buy another printer, I'll start at the $5000 level. I was trying to do engineering prints on a $200 printer and the constant tweaking and maintenance was killing me. I just sold my printer today and swore off 3d printing until the technology advances. But I probably just needed a big boy printer.
Should explain differences between FDM, SLA and SLS use cases, to give wider context about FDM.
1 - Design for Aesthetics / product displays
2 - Functional / Mechanical products
3 - Functional J&F parts used in production
4 - R&D, fine tune designs on all of the above, shorten PD cycles
5 - Printer research for new substrate materials
Thank you so much for sharing your professional views of this mysterious 3D printing world. I am a online retailer and try to make a new small kitchen product will be made of silicone. I have been trying to find a best fit printer under $1000 for TPE filament. I have tried a lot of the cheap printer, but all prints were not working as real products. I even tried Prusa MK3s, but the results are still not that ideal. Can you please give me some advice on what the most suitable printer for soft TPE like 85A is?
Another great video! Just a idea for a future video. I personally would LOVE to see you guys build or showcase diy high temp printers. I love that you guys are getting the word out of high temperature thermoplastics. If there is anyone else out there like me who wants to go from the hobby level to the next level of printing in Peek and Ultem, the biggest hurdle is the price of entry. The cheapest printer that I know of is the funmat HT which is around $5,000. Like you said in this video the average good hobbyist printer is around $200. So unless you are starting a company or have minimum 5K to get started it seems like most people will get deterred from that simple fact. Unless someone makes a printer that is closer to a hobbyist printer price.
I'm on several discord channels and subreddits and follow the community very closely. And you don't really see too many if any people build DIY enclosed, heated, external stepper motor, high temperature printers.
It would be awesome to make a video dedicated to people who have made DIY high temperature printers. Or even better yet, if you guys made one yourselves. Could be as simple as Duet board, CoreXY frame(maybe like a tronxy or VORON), 120v 750watt silicone bed, e3d copper plated hot end, etc etc. I don't see it going much over $1000-1500 depending on how fancy you get.
If you guys can show everyone that this whole other world is within their grasp, then you can make people like me come join the club 👍
The problem with the cheap, or maybe diy 1000$ printers and printing PEEK and the like is that you spend 300$ per spool on the filament and if you have to throw half of that away each time because of failed prints has you spending more in the end veeery quickly.
@@faxxzc great point. But I also think it's worth considering that this hypothetical printer wouldn't be just for high temperature filament. If I had to guess I would think that most people would want to build a printer that can do a little bit of everything. Right now hobby printers cannot print anything high temperature (400+). I'm just not sure if there's anyone else out there like me. Someone who doesn't want to spend 5k on a printer that they could build something similar for $1000. Someone who isn't scared of diy and wants something that can print pla asa, tpu, and than nylon, pc, ultem etc etc. I've always wanted to print with those materials but thought I would need a industrial printer. And now that I've started a small print farm and been diving deep into this whole world I've learned that's not the case. All the parts are right there. I'm going to build one but it would be awesome to see someone like these guys do it. Or maybe showcase some people they know that have built their own.
The biggest challenge is reputability and the high-temp chamber -- you literally have to build an oven to reach temps necessary for large PEEK/ULTEM, and the frame/build of the machine withstanding many cycles of heat/cool -- making something that will work for more than a few months needs to be far more robust than an aluminum extruded frame, presenting some challenges. There's a lot coming up with the expiration of stratasys patents, smart COREXY designs, and easy-to-get 500C Extruders, but for now, it really takes a lot more to build a reliable machine at high temps than people think :)
On top of that, the materials are expensive -- if you don't have a business use case, you're pretty much throwing money at the wall :) If you have the money to blow, awesome! But unless you NEED these materials, or have a way to make your money back, it's just fun :)
Example: Dude builds high-temp 3D printer that will last a month before needing all kinds of replacement parts/adjustments/calibration -- he prints exhaust shrouds in CFPEEK (lower chamber temp), and sells them for $100 each. He can get 15-100 of these off -- if he's got the customers, it's extremely viable!
Rebuttal: Spending the weeks/months building a custom machine which probably won't last that long vs. buying a machine that works out of the box for a larger up-front investment -- i.e. $7000-70,000 -- prints right out of the gate, will last for years, and can immediately be put to use in producing parts. In reality, this is usually the better option for businesses.
Printing small PEEK / ULTEM parts? Just upgrade your hotend and enclose that chamber :) You won't immediately hit above 60C, but you'll be able to do small parts as long as your bed gets hot enough :)
@@VisionMiner Alright than my question is who is this channel geared towards? Is it only geared towards people who are in the commercial and industrial space?
I understand all of your points and I 100% agree with all of them. All I'm trying to say is that it would be great to see someone bring this elusive expensive not popular industry down to a wider audience. And in my opinion that's not going to happen anytime soon with a price of entry at $7, 000-100,000.
So if this channel is geared more towards the commercial and industrial community, ya a DIY high temperature printer wouldn't make sense.
But if this channel is meant for the 3D printing community as a whole, you guys are one of the only channels I know of that is focused on high temperature printing. And I believe this segment would get more attention if the price to enter wasn't so high.
I can see a lot of parallels to this conversation to the old days of fdm printers. Couple years ago it was crazy expensive to get into 3D printing. It took a lot of people tinkering and making their own for it to finally get mainstream enough to reach a wider audience. If you remember it was thousands of dollars to buy a pre-built printer. But it took the community to build their own to drive down costs and open source design.
I see the same thing here. I see a future where the community starts to build printers that can print in high temperatures.
It's something I can't wait to see. Hopefully I can be a part of it.
@@VisionMiner And just like the olden days, it was a challenge to print consistently, reliably and easily. But nonetheless it was a challenge, a fight to win and figure it out. I want to see someone do the same thing for high temp filaments. Maybe not you guys but someone.
Sorry for all the novels haha. I'm very passionate about this subject. I just wish it wasn't so crazy expensive to buy a capable printer. Especially when you can buy all the parts to make your own. It's like this exclusive niche club. Only reserved for companies or people who have DEEP pockets.
Video on filaments and what they would compair too strength and structurally.
I.E. TPU = CARDBOARD? CFPEEK = 6061 T6 aluminum.
Great video! What about the differences in post processing? I have seen that hobbyist 3d printing often requires to clean the piece, removing the leftover material manually and cleaning with water. Is this avoidable using an industrial 3D printer?
Thank you!
What material would be appropriate for sterilizable medical parts? Tks
I was wondering what kind of material and printer do you advise for producing sterilizable medical device parts? Can 3D printerd parts be cleaned and sterilized multiple times?
I Soooo wanted to buy one of your printers (the Funmat specifically) but I just couldn't get there financially. Instead I bought as much printer as I could afford (QIDI TECH i Fast). I feel like I'm going to get a lot of med-high temp practice on this printer and with a little luck grow into one of yours. For now I'll just be buying metal reals, drying equipment and filament from you and taking all of your advise which I so Appreciate. Hopefully, I'll find a volume part that takes off and I'll be able to make that big purchase... In the mean time. Thank you for all the help!
Thank YOU!
love the channel boy im now up to pc nylon 910 and nylon x from 3dx i sent u guys an email but missed your call back i work at 3D Printing Canada, and am looking into high temp machines
Call back! Sorry we missed it, did we ever get in touch? If nothing else we'll geek out on FPV...
@@VisionMiner I'm big into FPV take a look at my videos brotha
Hello! Thank you for great material. Could you tell more about the details of the differences between the machines? Is it just more expensive and more accurate bearings and guides? Or maybe there is some other philosophy behind it (for example, you mentioned the chamber and the temperature regime inside). I am asking because I think that this knowledge can allow us - users of amateur, cheaper printers to improve them in a more professional way. We do not have access to such expensive equipment to look closely at it and see what professional solutions have been used. Thank You!
Basically better quality parts ie: bearings linear rails and such, but you don't need to spend that much in building a better quality machine. Focus on keeping your electronics out of the "oven" Keep your steppers out as well. And you can add a heater to a cheaper printer and have decent high temp filament printer.
90% of quality is in the tuning -- but, of course, if your machine is out of whack, tuning won't help much! A lot of it comes down to tighter tolerances on parts, made from metal, quality bearings etc -- in order to stay in-spec for a much longer period of time, especially at high temperatures. Everything eventually wears out -- if you look at the MAAM, created by Cincinnati (video coming out shortly!), they use insanely bulky frames, guides, rails, etc -- the machine will print for YEARS before getting messed up on the hardware side, much like a HAAS or Tormach CNC machine. Built for constant production, year-round!
@@svenland6892 Linear rails is a bad argument given that you really have to go LOW END to use those bad wheels. Higher end hobby printers already use linear rails - albeit probably not the super high quality, that already eliminate a lot of problems.
@@VisionMiner You're doing things i should have done years ago!! , i just don't and never hand the balls to do! Thank you guys for bring leaders! Balls the size of Montana!!
Very interested in your advice for a beginner whom wants to 3d print mainly with peek & Ultem? Preferably Ultem 1000 but for a beginner printer and good quality of course?
Thank you for your information
There's no better deal on the market than the Funmat HT for the price -- seriously, though, at $7k the closest competitor is north of $10-15k -- and even then, the Funmat is a prime competitor. Amazing, too, after 3 years... :)
Check it out: www.visionminer.com/funmat-ht
I thank you and am so excited to begin my journey. I would greatly appreciate logistics of the printer. Maybe elaborate a bit on the difference in your opinion between Ultem 1000 and some of the other Ultem materials not so translucent or clean.?
I'm starting in 3d printing with a zcorp 310 plus with powder bed and looking to start printing under contract. How should I start?
I mean, that's a broad question, but definitely the following:
1. Make a basic website
2. Have some examples to show
3. Start locally if possible, go around to shops, show off parts, and get applications for it
4. Keep going! Any business takes 2-5 years to get off the ground, in all reality :) Don't quit!
What kind of filament dryer are people using?
Ovens... lab-grade ovens, vacuum ovens, or even conventional ovens :)
What you call the hobbyist that has PEKK pellet extrusion vacuum chamber printer?
A Real Man. And someone who should give us a call :)
Great video. Can you please review some industrial printers for new starters best accuracy and cost affective machines
Best deal on the market right now..... www.visionminer.com/funmat
what is the approx price please ?
price is depending on which model size
Sir pl. Tell how to take govt. permission for this business because no youtuber has told about it . Everyone is telling only benefits
Sorry, we don't quite understand. your question?
I am not sure I like the material idea. See, if you go into a car, most of the plastic in most cars seems to be ABS. Industrial is not necessary "carrying load". While the general argument is good for higher end / stress parts, there is a big market of elements that can be done in "hobby materials". Let's talk about PRUSA printers as example - there is a lot of them that is printed and it is not using those materials. And it is an industrial production - except that the parts do not require other materials. Small holders for screens, dial buttons -> no need to make them out of PEEK or so. And the dials on my lower luxury cars made in ABS are sort of not "hobby parts" either.
Absolutely -- the high-grade plastics like PEEK, PEI, PPSU etc are all used in highly-specific industrial applications. I've seen thousands of use cases, and most of the time, it blows my mind. We also see a lot of people asking for PEEK because "they want the best" -- where simple carbon-fiber nylon would be more than enough. It's the wild applications people don't see -- cryochambers, nuclear reactors, space flight, aerospace for FST ratings (flame/smoke/toxicity/offgassing/chemical resistance), optical and laser applications, high-pressure environments, sub-zero environments, and many other situations -- but common everyday applications like automotive interiors certain get by with more standard materials :)
People can afford $600 weekend vacations?!
People are crazy, what can we say
I was expecting less obvious observations and more crossover points. Like if your maxing your hobby the next obvious step is....this was well all pretty obvious common sense stuff tbh.
for truly functional prints. i would just print with pla and fire up a kiln. not spending $30k.
and do a metal casting? Definitely more appropriate for many situations! Usually these printers are used in super-specialty situations for aerospace / medical / oil and gas where the cost is actually justified, lol
Complete non-sense and demagogy lvl.999 only to excuse price of "profi" printers with studid ad. PEEK and others advanced polymers can be good for some special aplikacion regarding to temp. resistance. But with hobby printer you can definitelly print tools for industry from ABS, NYLON, PET-G and even PLA - its all about application conditions! And you also "forgot" to mension that all fdm printers even the most expensive has issue with low layer adhesion in Z axis, which is much more weaker than X,Y axis, this makes FDM/FFF printers dificult to use on some industry aplication. If you want industry technology you will be talking about SLS, not overpriced FDM printers.
We disagree -- poor layer adhesion is 90% bad settings, and they can be modified to achieve near isotropic adhesion on most materials -- however, that's usually not ideal, and you're correct, it's a "sore thumb" of FDM. However, with proper printing, not using manufacturers recommendations, you can get a LOT more done than most realize. The main difference is specs and build quality, but there are plenty of applications for FDM in industrial settings -- we wouldn't have been around almost 5 years if there weren't :)
@@VisionMiner lol :D You disagree? Thast physics, you can disagre but you cannot fool physicals laws and when you layering plastic each layer, it will be ALWAYS in Z axis weaker, its not fusing of material like laser in SLS.And PEEk printers are not exkluded its same like others material, or do you have tested it on bench like for example CNC Kitchen YT chanell do it transparently? I doubt it. You know why. What do you saying about bad setting? You talking about profi printers and you need to tune setting for overpriced fdm craps? So thats much worse than basic prusa for for that price I expeded optimized profiles from "profesionals". So not happen here? Thats even sadder.