I find the people raging at 'illegal' parts hilarious. F1 has always been at its best when you have controversies over teams finding edges, grey-zones and technological breakthroughs.
@vralmanuel I just made a post to the general area about my favorite part of F1 actually racing in general because NASCAR used to do it as well is the pushing of Grey areas Merck D tuning their V6 hybrid with their split turbo so it didn't show how big of an advantage they had and of course the infamous blown diffusers of red bull. Can you imagine the 2021 season having Red Bull and Merc trading punches pushing the areas of flexi wings? Hell I hate Mercedes and I don't really have one team I root for I root for what we have right now in F1 which is competition. Or think back to 2010 and 2012 with Red Bull and Mercedes trading punches 2018 with Ferrari pushing the engine boundaries. But it is always funny to me when you have a team like Red Bull report somebody for flexi wings or Mercedes point out somebody pushing engine boundaries hell I just forgot 2021 also had the DAS system on the Merc. I also want to clear up that I said I hate Mercedes but I also wasn't very happy with Red Bull for the past 2 years either. I don't just randomly pick a team to hate it just seems like Mercedes had such a long reign of dominance that it truly bothered me even though it wasn't as dominant as Red Bull just had for the past two seasons. But I was also extremely disappointed in Mercedes because I really thought they were going to catch Red Bull at the early quarter of last season because they seem like they actually had a shot at it not to mention even Red Bull was saying they were worried about Mercedes ability to develop the car and how quickly they would be able to catch them. I guess we all kind of have that mentality of Mercedes would dump as much money as they possibly could into a problem fix it and have it ready for the next race or One race following that. I know they can't spend crazy money anymore but they are still Mercedes and they can still win as they've proven last year and this year and will continue to prove going forward.
Ferrari engine controversy, Ferrari's fault. Mercedes DAS controversy, Mercede's fault. Red Bull's flex-wings and the rumoured illegal brake system controversy, RB's fault. McLaren flex-wings controversy, McLaren's fault. When will F1 fans stop blaming the teams for looking and exploring grey areas in the rule book and start putting some pressure on the FIA to create actual regulations without loopholes? If their wing passed the flexibility test and was deemed legal, why are people blaming the team? Blame the FIA instead and have them come up with stricter regulations for that sort of thing. Every year shit like this happens and people are more concerned with attacking the teams who're being smart than the FIA for not doing their job properly. It's insane.
Finally someone said it! I have nothing against team finding loopholes and being creative about it. What bothers me is the inconsistency of the FIA itself. They were so quick to punish in the past and now even after all this leaked footage of MCL's rear wing we still havent heard a single shit from FIA itself.
They are for looking for entire wings leaning backwards/tilting (As they were at one point in the past), this is 1 element twisting so the corners lift a little on the DRS flap when it's closed.
Formula 1 has always been about bending the rules to gain as much advantage as possible. Every succesful team has been doing this for years, so it shouldn't be a surprise that McLaren are bending the rules in their favour
@@B__L not always true… many parts that pass tests have been banned for being against “the spirit of the regulations” and/or lead to the FIA making revisions to the rules to close loopholes that those parts were exploiting, making them illegal to use going forward
The FIA needs to let the teams experiment with elastic aero. Every time a team comes up with a new idea and gains pace, the FIA moves to block it. This isn't a spec series, let the teams have some technical freedom
So the gap is illegal when static but not in motion? Think Lewis Hamilton DQ after Brazil quali 2021. That EXACT gap was too large when static. The FIA only needs to use a single wind tunnel to simulate this...
Wind tunnels are not cheap, and to test this they'll would need a state of the art wind tunnel. They'll probably allow it for this season, simply for the audacity of Mclaren to come up with the trick and that there's no way to properly test it. Besides I think the circuits where this was beneficial have already passed anyway. Can't really blame a team for exploiting a loophole in the rules, that's what you want from your engineers if you want to run a successful F1 team.
@@mikereyes2269 Good answer, a lot of people don't recognize that these changes are essentially only effective in long straights, and all 3 of Spa, Monza and Baku have passed already. In addition, to replicate the wind speeds of a car going over 320 kmph is ridiculously hard, possibly a handfull of them exist in the world.
@@SV-mc1jq the only long straights left are Austin and Vegas. And those are both rather high downforce, even with the long straights, so it may be a negligible effect in those places.
What do you mean only a tenth of a second on the straight? Having that more topspeed means more wing in the corners.. It is much more than only 0,1s over the whole lap
Trying to understand the physics of this....I would expect a low pressure area necessary to lift up the leading edge, but it doesn't seem to make sense. Is it more that an area more inward is taking enough load to deflect down and subsequently cause the leading edge to lift up at its weakest point?
Same here. I'm guessing the bottom lip in the middle has been made to give while the corners are stiff, so while the middle takes load and bends backwards, the corners bend forwards? I'm intrigued.
Precisely and that's UA-camr/ aerodynamicist B Sport's idea too. Rewatch the footage taking the top of the DRS pillar as a reference. Don't know how everyone is missing it.
I am no aerodynamics engineer, but could it be the generation of small, controlled vortexes from the lower rear wing edge to push the air back into the leading edge?
Been thinking about this aswell. I believe at a certain speed the pressure on the outer non drs part of the wing trying to force the air through the small gap gets so high that instead of moving the air above the wing it will lift the edge of the drs opening slightly. But this is just a guess of me
Their explanation of how it works is wrong (although the net result is still correct). Theres a video floating around out there with static grid lines placed over it to help see the movement, and the thing that it really shows is that the leading edge of the DRS flap ISN'T moving, and its the rest of the rear wing/rear of the drs flap that moves backwards/downward under load creating the appearance that the DRS flap is lifting. With the other teams the front of the DRS flap moves relative to the rear wing along with the swan neck/drs actuator while again the McLaren's doesn't move at all under load. Conjecture time: It didn't seem like McLaren's rear wing was backing off more than the other teams so my guess is that they just found a clever way to mount the DRS actuator/swan neck to the chassis so it doesn't deflect along with the rear wing. That seems like a much easier thing to engineer compared to working some magic with materials elasticity but I also know nothing about materials science
Given the car they rolled out in 2023 it is all the more impressive that McLaren is coming up with all these clever tricks/cheats (depending how you view the rules/who you are cheering for) in their development.
This should not be ok for any team to run this. Rear Wing should not have any gaps in it, while not in DRS Zone. Im very surprised this has not ctacthed any FIA attention at all, when DAS in 2020 and Flexi-WIngs in 2021 were banned imidietaly.
@@flowmeful it was only "legal" because it exploited a loophole about adjustable suspension geometry being manually controlled, and not computer controlled. that was the *only* reason it was deemed "legal"... it was not actually legal per the regulations, as an adjustable suspension was technically not legal... but since it wasn't run by a computer, the FIA allowed it. it's all in how it's worded, but it was "allowed" but no other team was allowed to research and develop it, and it was gone the following year. The only reason it was not straight out banned when discovered, was the cost of redeveloping the car to remove a system it was built around, would have cost a mountain of money, and they had no time. It was basically banned for everyone else. and for good reason, it made the merc a truly dominant car of it's era.
there is a minimum gap specified. there is always a gap between elements. so long as that gap meets the regulations, it's allowed to race. Wings are thin surfaces that when imparted with forces, will deform slightly. It's creativity that makes the sport evolve. if you want set things like no gaps and rigid surfaces, and cars conforming totally and completely to the regs... go watch a spec series.
It's funny in real time I noticed their wing and Ferraris Wing along with Mercedes Wing flexing down under relatively low speed conditions. It reminded me immediately of when I noticed the Red Bull Wings flexing back in the early 2010s I can't remember the exact year that the controversy was because it kind of just carried on through the years but I do believe teams should be given a little bit more of a gray area to push so we can see things like flexi Wings develop to the appropriate level and then be capped because imagine the arms race we would have had in 2021 with Mercedes and Red Bull and flexi wings with Mercedes using their front and rear wings and Red Bull using mostly its rear wing. I think personally I love when teams attack the gray areas like McLaren's F duct Mercedes being so far ahead in the new engine era that they literally tuned down their engines so that it didn't show how large of an advantage they truly had and the infamous blown diffuser of Red Bull.
if this was Red Bull doing it and winning then people would lose thier shit over it saying jow its illegal, rule breaking, not healthy for competition etc etc..but since its Mclaren, its just a cheeky innovation and team pushing thier limits and finding loopholes.
It's almost like people are sick of Red Bull winning but happy to see Mclaren do so for the first time in a while? Crazy concept to wrap your head around!
If it would have been red bull doing this the same amount of people would be complaining as it is the case with mclaren right now. But in the end this sport is just about finding the best way to push their car to the maximum and still be within the legal regulatories. Mclaren has just found the most efficient way and still be legal for the moment. Most likely next season this exact rule will be adjusted so that this is not possible anymore, or the other teams will do the same as mclaren with their wings. This is what F1 is about and always has been in its history. And btw I´m no Mclaren fan just to make it clear.
I get working in the gray area, but I don't see how this is a gray area. If the FIA says that the deformation has to be uniform across the Wing elements, then how can McLaren's when be legal if only the edges flick up? I understand there's no test for it, but we all have eyes, and can see visually that the deformation is not equal across the wing.
The stance that: "We can't make it rigid because it will break" is total BS, look at the suspension arms on the car, they're made out of carbon, they're incredibly rigid and take TONS of load and they don't break.
The carbon you see is a shroud that covers the actual suspension element inside, which is still a metal alloy of some kind. How do you think those suspension arms are mounted to the main structure? Carbon fiber, as strong and light as it is, is still limited by it's physical structure
@@an_iguana4306 I don’t think that’s right. Adding a shroud is heavy. They shape actual parts instead. When these cars crash those arms shatter. They’re fully carbon. They likely do flex, exactly the way necessary to improve performance. Ducati tried a super rigid frame on its MotoGP bikes 15 yrs ago or so. Disaster. Turns out tuning flex is a far superior solution. Carbon is perfect for that.
Their explanation of how it works is wrong (although the net result is still correct). Theres a video floating around out there with static grid lines placed over it to help see the movement, and the thing that it really shows is that the leading edge of the DRS flap ISN'T moving, and its the rest of the rear wing/rear of the drs flap that moves under load. This is whats creating the appearance that the DRS flap is lifting. With the other teams, the front of the DRS flap along with the swan neck/drs actuator move relative to the rear wing, while again, the McLaren's doesn't move at all under load. Conjecture time: It didn't seem like McLaren's rear wing was backing off more than the other teams so my guess is that they just found a clever way to mount the DRS actuator/swan neck to the chassis so it doesn't deflect along with the rear wing. That seems like a much easier thing to engineer compared to working some magic with materials elasticity but I also know nothing about materials science so don't take this section as any kind of fact
THe lip lifting up is actually more draggy, not less. Think about the disruption of air over the rear wing. Also the small slot that opened up isn't significant. THink about this, DRS is worth 15KM/H when DRS flap is FULLY opened. How much km/h do you think THAT little gap is worth? Come on people, think!
7:35 Y'know, wishing the rules were less restrictive is such a cliche thing to say in an F1 comments section these days, but the trend persists for a reason. I guess I and anyone else who's followed F1 long-term should be over it by now, but seeing scope for creativity keep getting cut out of the rulebook hasn't ceased to be annoying as hell. It's happened before, it'll happen again, and it'll keep happening unless/until the FIA just mandates a spec car someday. But like a mild rash or a bad itch, this shit is just.....REALLY irritating.
The Mercs rear wing seemed to drop a decent amount at relatively low speeds in Baku. It reminded me immediately of when I noticed Red Bull doing it and the early 2010s😂 and both Mercedes and Red Bull and their flexi Wings the rear and front and 2021
When Redbull did the elasticity thing, FIA shut it down with technical directive so fast. When other teams do it, FIA says it has to "gather" information and will issue a fix for 2025. Sure sure..
Well considering theres not just 1 rule but 2 rules this violates i dont see how this has even gotten this far. 1) moveable areodynamic devices are illegal. 2) withen the rules for the DRS the wing is not to move or activate on its own.
Moveable aero refers to actuated movement, not flexing. The DRS wing move or activating on its own also refers to that, i.e. the wing cannot automatically open on the straight, the driver has to hit the button.
@@samuelfehl6263 Flexing is movement. and the wing is starting to open by itself without help from the driver. Hence why they went after redbull for there flexing, They just didnt have a way of measuring it until they made rules. No your going to in turn say that the way there flexing it is ok but the other was not? There both the same.
well.. people are very much angry on this one as well I'm guessing there is just more people that don't want RB to succeed, than people that don't want McLaren to succeed
If this was your mother, she would be a woman of the streets with how often her gap pops open.. But it's not, so be glad for that and stop speculating with the "But if's".....
I love the engineering pushing the limits, I rather them just allow flexibility wings, I mean what’s the issue? Let them all do it. That said, the issue with the rear wing isn’t that it may give .1 sec advantage, it’s that it builds on other advantages their flex carbon is giving that car and therefore this would likely yield a greater benefit. Again, kudos to McLaren, I just wish the rulings were consistent
Looks like this season McLaren is allowed anything. But RB having some clever brakes (that were not illegal at the moment of development) must be banned immediately.
The fact that Norris still can't win the championship after all these 'loophole' aero development is astonishing 😮😮Max & Lewis will win races by 40secs with that car😂
Every time a team comes up with something clever within the rules, they try to ban it. It's really annoying as a fan, and I think goes against the spirit of competition. The engineers are part of this race too!
In a sport that us supposed to be the most technically advanced, why are the FIA always looking to close these loopholes that get found and exploited by great engineering?
I’d love for the FIA to get rid of such stringent rules. Instead I’d like to see the cost cap 100% enforced with any overage resulting in exclusion. At the same time anything that the constructors can do within the cost cap should be allowed. That would be much more inline with true innovation, the type of which F1 was built upon and yielded the most interesting ideas. Dominance will come with any rule set we’ve seen so I’d rather see teams freed to be creative then try and eek creative interpretations. Maybe a rival championship in Asia will try what I’m talking about eventually.
so if your favourite team overspent by less than 5 quid... you'd want them excluded from the championship over a flipping coffee??? sure. I know the response to that one. This is why fans don't make the rules. You can't govern by feelings. too much money is on the line. Stick to watching. making comments on the sport isn't your strong suit. The rules are decided by a rules commission that includes team representatives. Which means every team signed off on them before implementation... INCLUDING your precious cost cap.
@@AKStovall Yes, no exceptions. Overage is overage. If it's that important ensure not to go over - leave a cushion. Each team can decide their own level of risk to get as close to the cap as they dare. But thanks for the rudeness.
Newer F1 fans would’ve completely lost it when Mercedes pulled up to 2020 with DAS. THIS is what F1 is about, teams pushing the boundaries of the rules to the absolute limit (sometimes going over it). These types of loopholes is what makes the sport exciting. Leave it to the teams to complain and if the FIA believe it to be legal everyone will just copy it anyway.
@@j.b.o6829 Why did the FIA then effectively ban Red Bull's 2021 rear wing despite passing all the tests? They imposed new tests mid season to make sure Red Bull can't run their existing rear wing. Same with Ferrari's 2019 engine. It seems like some teams get away with everything, while others aren't.
@@AndyHack10 Ferrari's 2019 engine wasn't "bending" the rules. It was intentionally tricking an onboard FIA sensor into thinking the engine was being fed less fuel than it actually was. There is a rule stating the exact fuel flow rate that teams are allowed and Ferarri was using more. Mclaren's wing doesn't bypass any sensor or test jig. It's been cleverly engineered to pass under the loads that the jigs put the wing under which every other team is completely free to follow.
I think this is awesome! Teams have been doing this for decades and it will never stop. Engineers always find a way. If anyone thinks for a second that all teams are not doing this same type of thing in some form or another is just naive.
Phenomenal material science to achieve that. Bending a corner forward isn’t something many would consider. But surely it goes against the spirit of the regulations? They stopped RBR in ‘21 even though their wing was technically legal. Why not do it here? Could it be that huge Bahraini ownership of McLaren has immense political clout with the FIA? hmmmmmm.
It's fine to find loopholes and grey areas the problem is the tests the FIA do for a start that teams will realise don't test in the real world and so they can exploit that but also the fact when they put out statements such as that with the flexibility of the Flexi-FWs they arent clear enough and we know that as soon as other teams like Ferrari & Redbull put them on their cars it'll be banned for next season straight away. This flexi rear wing though I question wether it is testing the limits of Article 3.10.10 g in the Technical Regulations
Sure.. it's gonna be next big controversy.. just like , Redbull's assistive breaking system this flexi wing of mcl38 which is enabling them to use benefits of a DRS even when not in drs zones.
Isn't one of the objectives of F1 to develop efficiencies for regular old street cars? I mean, why were hybrid power trains introduced? I have no idea what McClaren is doing is transferable to street cars but who cares? Innovation is supposed to be the name of the game. Let them, and every other team, go at it!
how convenient for FiA, when it's RedBull or Ferrari they ban it right away. When it's Mclaren with engine Mercedes and Mercedes team, they state there is nothing they can do. Hypocrisy!
wow!!! gotta love the way Brits report how British manufacturers get around the rules. Can you imagine the uproar the entire British race sporting media would go apeshit if this was Ferrari?
@@AKStovall they're british as well... the only reason the brit media shits all over Redbull, is they have no british drivers, otherwise they'd show them the same love as they have, merc and mclaren...
aero-elasticity. it's in how the layers of carbon are laid down that creates the rigid, yet flexible nature of the surface. it's a literal science that F1 teams pay big money for.
Are FIA British??? The teams were crying over the use of the Red Bull flexible wings and the committee punished them with several amendments, but we see that the committee has become completely blind to the flexibility of McLaren. Is this intentional? I think so.
only a tenth of a second... yeah right. even the fast Ferrari on the longest straight with DRS could not close the gap fast enough.. they these flexi wing stuff annoying the living crap out of me.
so... what I am hearing is that you're upset that your team hadn't thought of it, and they have been victims of it. But if your team had it, you'd be strangely silent.
@@AKStovall wow. Why are you so mad? You really should relax. I can practically see the vein on your forehead. I don't really care who wins. I enjoy the sport and the technology as a whole.
British team with british driver = the FIA won't stop them. The outcome would be very different if Red Bull had flexi front and rear wings, that's for sure.
Key point here is that the McLaren wing is LEGAL. Maybe not in the spirit of the rules, but this is F1 and that’s irrelevant. Yes the FIA may try and stop it happening, but it’s currently legal, and they won’t go back and DQ McLaren or anything like that later down the line. Please stop whining and saying it’s illegal because it isn’t - it may become illegal, but it is currently LEGAL
The rule is too technical. The rule should be plain and simple. "The DRS flap should remain CLOSED unless in a DRS Zone within 1sec" "Closed" does not mean "mostly" closed. Closed meanse closed.
the flap is closed when the gap between the elements is no more than 10mm, the gap is measured at rest, and flat linear surfaces will move under aerodynamic load... clearly someone hasn't been paying attention to F1 over the past 20 years or so. try measuring 10mm on that rear wing at 200mph. I'd love to watch that live stream, just so i can see Darwin's theories at work.
they won't have anywhere near the naysayers... 1) they have a British driver... and 2) they're not Red Bull and Max Verstappen. It could legit be illegal aero mods, and they'd still praise it like it's the best thing ever.
It's only "legal" because is McLaren and Mercedes, if it was Ferrari and RB it would have been illegal, like when they declared illegal RB wing in 2021 and Ferrari floor despite the fact that THEY HAD PASSED FIA TESTING!!
McLaren testing 2026 car in real time 😂
F1 is always so back when you get videos like these
I find the people raging at 'illegal' parts hilarious. F1 has always been at its best when you have controversies over teams finding edges, grey-zones and technological breakthroughs.
@vralmanuel I just made a post to the general area about my favorite part of F1 actually racing in general because NASCAR used to do it as well is the pushing of Grey areas Merck D tuning their V6 hybrid with their split turbo so it didn't show how big of an advantage they had and of course the infamous blown diffusers of red bull. Can you imagine the 2021 season having Red Bull and Merc trading punches pushing the areas of flexi wings? Hell I hate Mercedes and I don't really have one team I root for I root for what we have right now in F1 which is competition. Or think back to 2010 and 2012 with Red Bull and Mercedes trading punches 2018 with Ferrari pushing the engine boundaries. But it is always funny to me when you have a team like Red Bull report somebody for flexi wings or Mercedes point out somebody pushing engine boundaries hell I just forgot 2021 also had the DAS system on the Merc. I also want to clear up that I said I hate Mercedes but I also wasn't very happy with Red Bull for the past 2 years either. I don't just randomly pick a team to hate it just seems like Mercedes had such a long reign of dominance that it truly bothered me even though it wasn't as dominant as Red Bull just had for the past two seasons. But I was also extremely disappointed in Mercedes because I really thought they were going to catch Red Bull at the early quarter of last season because they seem like they actually had a shot at it not to mention even Red Bull was saying they were worried about Mercedes ability to develop the car and how quickly they would be able to catch them. I guess we all kind of have that mentality of Mercedes would dump as much money as they possibly could into a problem fix it and have it ready for the next race or One race following that. I know they can't spend crazy money anymore but they are still Mercedes and they can still win as they've proven last year and this year and will continue to prove going forward.
Ferrari should bring back 2019 engine. 💀
Alpine already tried that
@@twistafearwhen?
@@notorious_nrsaOn the AZE weekend. They have been dq'd from Quali for Fuel Flow Rate exceeding 100kg/h
@@Heisenberg_747 Instant ban just like Red Bull's rear wing of 2021.
That’s the last mighty engine. Illegal or not
Not only the straight line speed, but the can run more downforce with no penalty
No penalty is a bit of an exaggeration
Ferrari engine controversy, Ferrari's fault.
Mercedes DAS controversy, Mercede's fault.
Red Bull's flex-wings and the rumoured illegal brake system controversy, RB's fault.
McLaren flex-wings controversy, McLaren's fault.
When will F1 fans stop blaming the teams for looking and exploring grey areas in the rule book and start putting some pressure on the FIA to create actual regulations without loopholes?
If their wing passed the flexibility test and was deemed legal, why are people blaming the team? Blame the FIA instead and have them come up with stricter regulations for that sort of thing.
Every year shit like this happens and people are more concerned with attacking the teams who're being smart than the FIA for not doing their job properly. It's insane.
Finally someone said it! I have nothing against team finding loopholes and being creative about it. What bothers me is the inconsistency of the FIA itself. They were so quick to punish in the past and now even after all this leaked footage of MCL's rear wing we still havent heard a single shit from FIA itself.
Some other diagrams I saw showed that even the top of the rear wing deflecting a bit downwards as well.
The wings are what can be seen.
Imaging the scope for "bending" the rules on the floor...
I thought those dots they put on the wings were supposed to prevent this from happening.
Rules are always subjective in F1 if you have the right people in your pocket they are mere suggestions
They are for looking for entire wings leaning backwards/tilting (As they were at one point in the past), this is 1 element twisting so the corners lift a little on the DRS flap when it's closed.
It's astonishing how much controversy can a detail like this raise... and how significant advantage can it give you...
Shows it really is a Constructors championship.
this rear wing reminds me of the mclaren speedtail 🧐
The poor quality of the design accidentally helped them. Really touching
Formula 1 has always been about bending the rules to gain as much advantage as possible. Every succesful team has been doing this for years, so it shouldn't be a surprise that McLaren are bending the rules in their favour
@@tanishqsahu2564 Yeah but some got their wings banned instantly, others aren't even questioned. Imagine if Red Bull had flexible wings...
@@AndyHack10 The ones that get banned instantly fail the tests that are already in place. Mclaren's passes their testing.
@@B__L not always true… many parts that pass tests have been banned for being against “the spirit of the regulations” and/or lead to the FIA making revisions to the rules to close loopholes that those parts were exploiting, making them illegal to use going forward
@@B__L No, they passed the test. If they failed they would get DSQ.
@@AndyHack10When Red Bull broke the cost cap it was termed a minor overspend, now McLaren is exploiting a minor gap in their rear wing. Fair is fair.
It’s wild that something that small would create such a big advantage.
The FIA needs to let the teams experiment with elastic aero. Every time a team comes up with a new idea and gains pace, the FIA moves to block it. This isn't a spec series, let the teams have some technical freedom
So the gap is illegal when static but not in motion? Think Lewis Hamilton DQ after Brazil quali 2021. That EXACT gap was too large when static. The FIA only needs to use a single wind tunnel to simulate this...
Wind tunnels are not cheap, and to test this they'll would need a state of the art wind tunnel. They'll probably allow it for this season, simply for the audacity of Mclaren to come up with the trick and that there's no way to properly test it. Besides I think the circuits where this was beneficial have already passed anyway. Can't really blame a team for exploiting a loophole in the rules, that's what you want from your engineers if you want to run a successful F1 team.
@@mikereyes2269 Good answer, a lot of people don't recognize that these changes are essentially only effective in long straights, and all 3 of Spa, Monza and Baku have passed already. In addition, to replicate the wind speeds of a car going over 320 kmph is ridiculously hard, possibly a handfull of them exist in the world.
@@SV-mc1jq the only long straights left are Austin and Vegas. And those are both rather high downforce, even with the long straights, so it may be a negligible effect in those places.
The gap is legal when static and not in motion.
@@AKStovall Exactly. People are crying about nothing.
What do you mean only a tenth of a second on the straight? Having that more topspeed means more wing in the corners.. It is much more than only 0,1s over the whole lap
Yeah but he said the straight. not the lap, you even said that in your post. Surely you know what you are typing?
@@EnhancedCD yeah sure. because they are saying that it doesn't create such a big advantage which I disagree with because of exactly what I wrote
Trying to understand the physics of this....I would expect a low pressure area necessary to lift up the leading edge, but it doesn't seem to make sense. Is it more that an area more inward is taking enough load to deflect down and subsequently cause the leading edge to lift up at its weakest point?
Same here. I'm guessing the bottom lip in the middle has been made to give while the corners are stiff, so while the middle takes load and bends backwards, the corners bend forwards? I'm intrigued.
Precisely and that's UA-camr/ aerodynamicist B Sport's idea too. Rewatch the footage taking the top of the DRS pillar as a reference. Don't know how everyone is missing it.
I am no aerodynamics engineer, but could it be the generation of small, controlled vortexes from the lower rear wing edge to push the air back into the leading edge?
Been thinking about this aswell. I believe at a certain speed the pressure on the outer non drs part of the wing trying to force the air through the small gap gets so high that instead of moving the air above the wing it will lift the edge of the drs opening slightly. But this is just a guess of me
Their explanation of how it works is wrong (although the net result is still correct). Theres a video floating around out there with static grid lines placed over it to help see the movement, and the thing that it really shows is that the leading edge of the DRS flap ISN'T moving, and its the rest of the rear wing/rear of the drs flap that moves backwards/downward under load creating the appearance that the DRS flap is lifting. With the other teams the front of the DRS flap moves relative to the rear wing along with the swan neck/drs actuator while again the McLaren's doesn't move at all under load.
Conjecture time: It didn't seem like McLaren's rear wing was backing off more than the other teams so my guess is that they just found a clever way to mount the DRS actuator/swan neck to the chassis so it doesn't deflect along with the rear wing. That seems like a much easier thing to engineer compared to working some magic with materials elasticity but I also know nothing about materials science
7:28 "Arrow" Elasticity 😂 I see what the editor did there 😉
Given the car they rolled out in 2023 it is all the more impressive that McLaren is coming up with all these clever tricks/cheats (depending how you view the rules/who you are cheering for) in their development.
This should not be ok for any team to run this. Rear Wing should not have any gaps in it, while not in DRS Zone. Im very surprised this has not ctacthed any FIA attention at all, when DAS in 2020 and Flexi-WIngs in 2021 were banned imidietaly.
DAS was "legal" for a whole season
DAS wasn't banned immediately (despite being CLEARLY ILLEGAL): they allow Mercedes to use it ALL YEAR and win the Championship first!!
@@flowmeful it was only "legal" because it exploited a loophole about adjustable suspension geometry being manually controlled, and not computer controlled. that was the *only* reason it was deemed "legal"... it was not actually legal per the regulations, as an adjustable suspension was technically not legal... but since it wasn't run by a computer, the FIA allowed it. it's all in how it's worded, but it was "allowed" but no other team was allowed to research and develop it, and it was gone the following year. The only reason it was not straight out banned when discovered, was the cost of redeveloping the car to remove a system it was built around, would have cost a mountain of money, and they had no time. It was basically banned for everyone else. and for good reason, it made the merc a truly dominant car of it's era.
there is a minimum gap specified. there is always a gap between elements. so long as that gap meets the regulations, it's allowed to race.
Wings are thin surfaces that when imparted with forces, will deform slightly. It's creativity that makes the sport evolve. if you want set things like no gaps and rigid surfaces, and cars conforming totally and completely to the regs... go watch a spec series.
It's funny in real time I noticed their wing and Ferraris Wing along with Mercedes Wing flexing down under relatively low speed conditions. It reminded me immediately of when I noticed the Red Bull Wings flexing back in the early 2010s I can't remember the exact year that the controversy was because it kind of just carried on through the years but I do believe teams should be given a little bit more of a gray area to push so we can see things like flexi Wings develop to the appropriate level and then be capped because imagine the arms race we would have had in 2021 with Mercedes and Red Bull and flexi wings with Mercedes using their front and rear wings and Red Bull using mostly its rear wing. I think personally I love when teams attack the gray areas like McLaren's F duct Mercedes being so far ahead in the new engine era that they literally tuned down their engines so that it didn't show how large of an advantage they truly had and the infamous blown diffuser of Red Bull.
if this was Red Bull doing it and winning then people would lose thier shit over it saying jow its illegal, rule breaking, not healthy for competition etc etc..but since its Mclaren, its just a cheeky innovation and team pushing thier limits and finding loopholes.
True enough
It's almost like people are sick of Red Bull winning but happy to see Mclaren do so for the first time in a while? Crazy concept to wrap your head around!
True
what? ive heard nothing but people getting mad about it.
If it would have been red bull doing this the same amount of people would be complaining as it is the case with mclaren right now. But in the end this sport is just about finding the best way to push their car to the maximum and still be within the legal regulatories. Mclaren has just found the most efficient way and still be legal for the moment. Most likely next season this exact rule will be adjusted so that this is not possible anymore, or the other teams will do the same as mclaren with their wings. This is what F1 is about and always has been in its history. And btw I´m no Mclaren fan just to make it clear.
Changes coming in 2025 then. The teams will always be ahead of the fia on this stuff
Probably designed by a bending unit named Flexo.
I get working in the gray area, but I don't see how this is a gray area. If the FIA says that the deformation has to be uniform across the Wing elements, then how can McLaren's when be legal if only the edges flick up? I understand there's no test for it, but we all have eyes, and can see visually that the deformation is not equal across the wing.
The stance that: "We can't make it rigid because it will break" is total BS, look at the suspension arms on the car, they're made out of carbon, they're incredibly rigid and take TONS of load and they don't break.
The carbon you see is a shroud that covers the actual suspension element inside, which is still a metal alloy of some kind. How do you think those suspension arms are mounted to the main structure? Carbon fiber, as strong and light as it is, is still limited by it's physical structure
Different kind of load.
bending and supporting something are completely different things
lol the ignorance 😂
@@an_iguana4306 I don’t think that’s right. Adding a shroud is heavy. They shape actual parts instead. When these cars crash those arms shatter. They’re fully carbon.
They likely do flex, exactly the way necessary to improve performance.
Ducati tried a super rigid frame on its MotoGP bikes 15 yrs ago or so. Disaster. Turns out tuning flex is a far superior solution. Carbon is perfect for that.
Their explanation of how it works is wrong (although the net result is still correct). Theres a video floating around out there with static grid lines placed over it to help see the movement, and the thing that it really shows is that the leading edge of the DRS flap ISN'T moving, and its the rest of the rear wing/rear of the drs flap that moves under load. This is whats creating the appearance that the DRS flap is lifting. With the other teams, the front of the DRS flap along with the swan neck/drs actuator move relative to the rear wing, while again, the McLaren's doesn't move at all under load.
Conjecture time: It didn't seem like McLaren's rear wing was backing off more than the other teams so my guess is that they just found a clever way to mount the DRS actuator/swan neck to the chassis so it doesn't deflect along with the rear wing. That seems like a much easier thing to engineer compared to working some magic with materials elasticity but I also know nothing about materials science so don't take this section as any kind of fact
THe lip lifting up is actually more draggy, not less.
Think about the disruption of air over the rear wing.
Also the small slot that opened up isn't significant.
THink about this, DRS is worth 15KM/H when DRS flap is FULLY opened.
How much km/h do you think THAT little gap is worth?
Come on people, think!
They need a standing blown air test to see what deflection cars have without the vibration onboard cameras add to the video.
7:35 Y'know, wishing the rules were less restrictive is such a cliche thing to say in an F1 comments section these days, but the trend persists for a reason. I guess I and anyone else who's followed F1 long-term should be over it by now, but seeing scope for creativity keep getting cut out of the rulebook hasn't ceased to be annoying as hell.
It's happened before, it'll happen again, and it'll keep happening unless/until the FIA just mandates a spec car someday. But like a mild rash or a bad itch, this shit is just.....REALLY irritating.
The Mercs rear wing seemed to drop a decent amount at relatively low speeds in Baku. It reminded me immediately of when I noticed Red Bull doing it and the early 2010s😂 and both Mercedes and Red Bull and their flexi Wings the rear and front and 2021
So mclaren can run an illegal rearwing and the 9 other teams cant?
I want to see an F1 special of Taskmaster, the natural rule bending skills would be perfect to watch as they solve the puzzles...
When Redbull did the elasticity thing, FIA shut it down with technical directive so fast. When other teams do it, FIA says it has to "gather" information and will issue a fix for 2025. Sure sure..
The FIA response is also flexible depending on which team is doing the rule bending.
And how much middle eastern control each team has.
Well considering theres not just 1 rule but 2 rules this violates i dont see how this has even gotten this far. 1) moveable areodynamic devices are illegal. 2) withen the rules for the DRS the wing is not to move or activate on its own.
Moveable aero refers to actuated movement, not flexing. The DRS wing move or activating on its own also refers to that, i.e. the wing cannot automatically open on the straight, the driver has to hit the button.
@@samuelfehl6263 Flexing is movement. and the wing is starting to open by itself without help from the driver. Hence why they went after redbull for there flexing, They just didnt have a way of measuring it until they made rules. No your going to in turn say that the way there flexing it is ok but the other was not? There both the same.
@@scottb9868flexibility and moving have separate rules when it comes to f1
If this was RB, people would be getting chest pains.
especially FIA, United Kingdom winning here too.
well.. people are very much angry on this one as well
I'm guessing there is just more people that don't want RB to succeed, than people that don't want McLaren to succeed
If this was your mother, she would be a woman of the streets with how often her gap pops open.. But it's not, so be glad for that and stop speculating with the "But if's".....
Poor redbull fans, they thought they would win for the next decade. I thought you people were saying Max can win in a Sauber lol.
Someone's using chat gpt
I love the engineering pushing the limits, I rather them just allow flexibility wings, I mean what’s the issue? Let them all do it.
That said, the issue with the rear wing isn’t that it may give .1 sec advantage, it’s that it builds on other advantages their flex carbon is giving that car and therefore this would likely yield a greater benefit. Again, kudos to McLaren, I just wish the rulings were consistent
I love this sort of ingenuity. And whats really getting up the other teams noses is that they didn't think of it first 😀
...because they were told it was banned
It's hardly a genius idea. Every designer would have thought about it.
Lots of sourness here it seems.
Bending the rules is part of game imo. Even if they only get to use it for a couple races.
Looks like this season McLaren is allowed anything. But RB having some clever brakes (that were not illegal at the moment of development) must be banned immediately.
Look at the drs rules part c. It is clearly illegall.
Good on them, I don't support McLaren but they figured a great loophole out
Imagine every team brings flexi-parts
The fact that Norris still can't win the championship after all these 'loophole' aero development is astonishing 😮😮Max & Lewis will win races by 40secs with that car😂
Every time a team comes up with something clever within the rules, they try to ban it. It's really annoying as a fan, and I think goes against the spirit of competition. The engineers are part of this race too!
Only 1 10th of a second?? Multiply that by 51 to 75 laps and its a significant amount of time.
If it was so effective why didn't Piastri pass Leclerk in first part on medium tires?
These designers never fail to amaze me with what they do. My dumb brain can’t even fathom how it’s possible let alone design it.
In a sport that us supposed to be the most technically advanced, why are the FIA always looking to close these loopholes that get found and exploited by great engineering?
Jesus Christ the speculation... Tiresome.
I’d love for the FIA to get rid of such stringent rules. Instead I’d like to see the cost cap 100% enforced with any overage resulting in exclusion. At the same time anything that the constructors can do within the cost cap should be allowed. That would be much more inline with true innovation, the type of which F1 was built upon and yielded the most interesting ideas. Dominance will come with any rule set we’ve seen so I’d rather see teams freed to be creative then try and eek creative interpretations. Maybe a rival championship in Asia will try what I’m talking about eventually.
so if your favourite team overspent by less than 5 quid... you'd want them excluded from the championship over a flipping coffee??? sure. I know the response to that one.
This is why fans don't make the rules. You can't govern by feelings. too much money is on the line. Stick to watching. making comments on the sport isn't your strong suit.
The rules are decided by a rules commission that includes team representatives. Which means every team signed off on them before implementation... INCLUDING your precious cost cap.
@@AKStovall Yes, no exceptions. Overage is overage. If it's that important ensure not to go over - leave a cushion. Each team can decide their own level of risk to get as close to the cap as they dare. But thanks for the rudeness.
Newer F1 fans would’ve completely lost it when Mercedes pulled up to 2020 with DAS. THIS is what F1 is about, teams pushing the boundaries of the rules to the absolute limit (sometimes going over it). These types of loopholes is what makes the sport exciting. Leave it to the teams to complain and if the FIA believe it to be legal everyone will just copy it anyway.
@@j.b.o6829 Why did the FIA then effectively ban Red Bull's 2021 rear wing despite passing all the tests? They imposed new tests mid season to make sure Red Bull can't run their existing rear wing. Same with Ferrari's 2019 engine. It seems like some teams get away with everything, while others aren't.
It is exciting until RedBull does it, then everybody loses their mind
@@AndyHack10The FIA is free to impose the tests they need. As long as the wing passes the necessary tests it's legal
@@AndyHack10ferrari engine was 1000% illegal. There was no grey area
@@AndyHack10 Ferrari's 2019 engine wasn't "bending" the rules. It was intentionally tricking an onboard FIA sensor into thinking the engine was being fed less fuel than it actually was. There is a rule stating the exact fuel flow rate that teams are allowed and Ferarri was using more. Mclaren's wing doesn't bypass any sensor or test jig. It's been cleverly engineered to pass under the loads that the jigs put the wing under which every other team is completely free to follow.
I think this is awesome! Teams have been doing this for decades and it will never stop. Engineers always find a way. If anyone thinks for a second that all teams are not doing this same type of thing in some form or another is just naive.
In a years time McClaren went from last to the front of the grid. Fishy Fishy.
Phenomenal material science to achieve that. Bending a corner forward isn’t something many would consider. But surely it goes against the spirit of the regulations? They stopped RBR in ‘21 even though their wing was technically legal. Why not do it here?
Could it be that huge Bahraini ownership of McLaren has immense political clout with the FIA? hmmmmmm.
Can't believe reddit during the race started this controversy.
IF it is illegal, it should be a controversy...
It's fine to find loopholes and grey areas the problem is the tests the FIA do for a start that teams will realise don't test in the real world and so they can exploit that but also the fact when they put out statements such as that with the flexibility of the Flexi-FWs they arent clear enough and we know that as soon as other teams like Ferrari & Redbull put them on their cars it'll be banned for next season straight away. This flexi rear wing though I question wether it is testing the limits of Article 3.10.10 g in the Technical Regulations
Sure.. it's gonna be next big controversy.. just like , Redbull's assistive breaking system this flexi wing of mcl38 which is enabling them to use benefits of a DRS even when not in drs zones.
You need more than a trick rear wing to
Come from 50 metres back to overtake
Le clerc
McLaren literally has DRS the whole race 😆
Why when rb done it, it is illegal. What are the differences?
Major no, business as usual absolutely.
Isn't one of the objectives of F1 to develop efficiencies for regular old street cars? I mean, why were hybrid power trains introduced? I have no idea what McClaren is doing is transferable to street cars but who cares? Innovation is supposed to be the name of the game. Let them, and every other team, go at it!
F1 is so subjective with their directives…
Drive to Survive is already recycling scripts? Doesn’t anyone remember Brazil 2021? Does Michael Masi come back at Abu Dhabi and put Lando over?
how convenient for FiA, when it's RedBull or Ferrari they ban it right away. When it's Mclaren with engine Mercedes and Mercedes team, they state there is nothing they can do. Hypocrisy!
wow!!! gotta love the way Brits report how British manufacturers get around the rules. Can you imagine the uproar the entire British race sporting media would go apeshit if this was Ferrari?
or Red Bull
@@AKStovall they're british as well... the only reason the brit media shits all over Redbull, is they have no british drivers, otherwise they'd show them the same love as they have, merc and mclaren...
Thats not why he couldn't pass. He would lose .3 tenths by the straight and would be ..700 behind. Needed .5 or lower to pass
thay were already using this last year
AMR get absolutly cooked by last year MID SEASON, out of nowhere rules. So yeah this whole mclaren & mercedes is full on BS.
Can we stop stifling innovation please? I'm sick of this stuff being banned. It's clever. Same thing with the redbull flexi wings.
Carbon fibre flexes. People forget this.
1:54 how does the front bit pull up if the rear edge doesn’t twist down
aero-elasticity. it's in how the layers of carbon are laid down that creates the rigid, yet flexible nature of the surface. it's a literal science that F1 teams pay big money for.
If this was RedBull ya'll would be talking smack hypocrites
Red Bull Gives You Wings
Why is it always McLaren
Are FIA British??? The teams were crying over the use of the Red Bull flexible wings and the committee punished them with several amendments, but we see that the committee has become completely blind to the flexibility of McLaren. Is this intentional? I think so.
only a tenth of a second... yeah right. even the fast Ferrari on the longest straight with DRS could not close the gap fast enough..
they these flexi wing stuff annoying the living crap out of me.
so... what I am hearing is that you're upset that your team hadn't thought of it, and they have been victims of it. But if your team had it, you'd be strangely silent.
Stop trying to spin everything into a controversy. It’s starting to get old.
Is it RB or AM? -> FIA bans
Is it ML or MB? -> FIA is blind
You forgot to put Ferrari with RB and AM
I love how this a "innovation" If this was red bull, people would be losing their minds.
Not even. People only clown RB because of their brake system. Keep up. 😂😂😂
Is that rear wing flex only the case for this particular aero package ?
i dont see the reason to not use it everywhere it only flexes on high speeds
@@Tony_Sabit's only specific to that one rear wing though
No, it was happening in monza too, on a different spec of wing.
@@askeladden450 it was the same wing i think
If FIA shows no intention to bann it, there'll be variants popping up on other teams soon enough on all kinds of tracks.
If it's not against the rules then why not, bend that rear wing and gain as much advantage as possible
Should be banned but they are a British team
Kudos to the big brains at McLaren. 👏
It's all about finding those extra millimeters within the formula, and they are on it!
but if RBR did this, you'd be vilifying and demonizing them and screaming "CHEATERS!" from every pulpit available.
@@AKStovall wow. Why are you so mad? You really should relax. I can practically see the vein on your forehead. I don't really care who wins. I enjoy the sport and the technology as a whole.
@@AKStovallnot everyone falls so deeply into tribalism...
rb not dominating= fia looks the other way lol
😂😂 banned 🚫
Cheaters are McLaren 100%
shut up. last year you said the exact same thing about Red Bull...
A team who were pioneers in the recycling of carbon fibre has a better understanding of it than others. Who would've thunk? Award & applaud genius.
British team with british driver = the FIA won't stop them. The outcome would be very different if Red Bull had flexi front and rear wings, that's for sure.
Or Ferrari
@@SA-nb8lj Wait until Hamilton is at Ferrari 👀
Key point here is that the McLaren wing is LEGAL. Maybe not in the spirit of the rules, but this is F1 and that’s irrelevant. Yes the FIA may try and stop it happening, but it’s currently legal, and they won’t go back and DQ McLaren or anything like that later down the line. Please stop whining and saying it’s illegal because it isn’t - it may become illegal, but it is currently LEGAL
sorry but when red bull wings ware the issue it got chance in 2 race time and not till next year , same with the floorboards TD came out so fast,
red bulls horizontal brake balance converter got banned mid-season but mclaren can use flexi wings ok maFIA
Red bull didn't use that.....
Asymmetrical breaking is against the rules as far as I know.
First 💀 was waiting for your video on this
me too. somehow the bot beat you to first though lmao
The rule is too technical. The rule should be plain and simple. "The DRS flap should remain CLOSED unless in a DRS Zone within 1sec"
"Closed" does not mean "mostly" closed. Closed meanse closed.
the flap is closed when the gap between the elements is no more than 10mm, the gap is measured at rest, and flat linear surfaces will move under aerodynamic load... clearly someone hasn't been paying attention to F1 over the past 20 years or so. try measuring 10mm on that rear wing at 200mph. I'd love to watch that live stream, just so i can see Darwin's theories at work.
none of the teams run a fully "closed" rear wing, per your definition
they won't have anywhere near the naysayers... 1) they have a British driver... and 2) they're not Red Bull and Max Verstappen.
It could legit be illegal aero mods, and they'd still praise it like it's the best thing ever.
I didn’t see Zak Brown’s team beating everyone else at this stuff.
Sly like a fox
First of all if its legal then its legal, end of conversation.
Secondly F1 should be the pinnacle of racing. And super strict rules ruin the fun.
It isn't legal by the writing of the rules, but it is legal by the testing of the rules
It's only "legal" because is McLaren and Mercedes, if it was Ferrari and RB it would have been illegal, like when they declared illegal RB wing in 2021 and Ferrari floor despite the fact that THEY HAD PASSED FIA TESTING!!