Winter- grats on your best year yet. You've put in a lot of effort for a long time and your sub count is no mistake. Love the humor, soundboards, memes, and queen impersonations, and game knowledge you've built up over the years. You're one of my two favorite solo casters (alongside Harstem). Just curious - is it possible you'd ever co-cast with someone else during big live events?
It would be cool to cast live at events occasionally, but it is a ton of work on all sides of the camera.There are already plenty of great casters experienced with live events & production - I try to bring something a bit more business casual here on youtube
@@WinterStarcraft Understandable! Someone would have to pay the travel fees for Jimmy too, adding further complication. I will continue to enjoy your videos on UA-cam then :)
@@WinterStarcraft You did great in Atlanta! This IEM I enjoyed the C-stream with Harstem and Lambo more than the A or B streams, feels less rigid, more casual as you say.
One hour into the match when you made your thanks to the viewers, it hit different this time! Thank YOU man, you deserve it. Constantly deliver, funny, informative. Been watching you for years. Stay on it man! Congrats on 200k!!!❤
Congrats on 200k! I remember about 10 years ago, watching your stream and asking in chat what you like to do outside of SC2. You got kind of annoyed and said "your mom" and then talked about how it was a stupid question. Been a fan ever since :D
0:55 On this GOAT debate: - There is a player who achieved the Triple Crown twice, which only 2 other players achieved. - There is a player who has the highest win rate vs Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023). - There is a player who won the world championship twice (most wins among two others) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against at least Top 100 players (47 consecutive wins) - There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins; 2nd place the same player with 18 consecutive wins) - There is a player who achieved an over 90% match win rate in a year (2023) overall - which no one else ever achieved - There is a player who achieved an over 73% (73,24%) game win rate in a year (2023) vs Koreans - which no one else ever achieved (closest is Serral with 69,86% in 2018 and Maru’s 69,44% also in 2023). - There is a player who achieved an over 85% (!!!!) match win rate in three years (2018, 2020, 2023) vs Koreans. The next best other player being Maru with 78% in 2023 and herO with 74% in 2017. - There is a player who has by far the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and overall (25) - There is a player who has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved Here are these player’s records against these top Koreans (wins:Korean player wins: draws): vs Maru: 13:4:2 vs Dark: 8:5:1 vs GuMiho: 10:4:0 vs Solar: 16:7:1 vs Cure: 17:3:0 vs ByuN: 12:5:0 vs Classic: 8:2:0 vs Bunny: 9:2:0 vs stats: 9:4:0 vs soO: 8:4:0 vs Innovation: 16:8:0 vs Rogue: 8:7:0 vs Trap: 14:3:0 vs Zest: 10:5:0 And here the records vs some top world players : vs Reynor: 31:16:0 vs MaxPax: 18:4:0 vs Heromarine: 26:4:0 That player has been so dominant since his rise to the top in 2018 in Seoul that he won more tournaments - with participation of the best Koreans in the world - in 6 years of playing StarCraft 2 than all players who have been present among the top players for much longer. That player is Serral. I have no idea how anyone can deny that Serral is the GOAT of StarCraft 2. Not one player comes even close to such a dominance over such a long period of time while at the same time amassing more important trophies in less time than anyone else. Serral's win rate vs his weakest matchup (Zerg) is higher than most pro's overall win rates. To anyone arguing flash = SC2 GOAT: Flash never had win rates that even come close to Serral's and had lower win rates than Innovation at time. He also was only present in SC2 for around 2 years. He definitely is the SC GOAT though. To anyone arguing Innovation/Maru: These two both failed to show up on the really big stages. Maru only ever got a 2nd place at Worlds with his 2023 defeat against Oliveira. He didn’t do what sOs, ROgue or Serral did: Go to a big stage, where the best of the world compete and win. The same is true for Innovation. Both Maru and him falter when competition from outside of Korea is present/when the big stage calls. Also both have lower win rates vs the top players and less achievements. To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance. Rogue has won 11 premier tournaments from 2017 to 2022. He, as well as Serral, won 2 Worlds. Now let’s bring Serral into the equation. Out of his 25 premier tournament wins which span from 2018 to 2023, 16 are with top Korean participation, Serral won 2 World Championships. Him and Rogue in my opinion are the only two players who are consistent and showed up when the best of the world are present. They have achieved similar high end feats. BUT: Serral has way more Premier Tournament wins (with top Korean participation and yet even more without) and was more dominant in his win rates and records versus other Korean players. To people arguing that Serral never won a GSL. So what? He played the best of the best from GSL and defeated them time and again (see record vs these players and overall win rate vs Koreans above). Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean? And at the same taking Premier titles away from players who now claim them? If anything, Serral's dominance would have been EVEN MORE apparent. Plus Serral even went to Korea twice and both times won the GSL vs Worlds where the best of the GSL participated. That argument sounds a little bit like this: Real Madrid (Serral) who defeated all Premier League teams (Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc.) in the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) is not better than Liverpool because it never played in the Premier League. The argument is absurd. The Premier League (Korea) sends its best teams (Maru, Dark, Rogue) to the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) and these best teams get beaten by Madrid (Serral). No one in their right mind would argue that Madrid isn’t the best team in the world, simply because it didn't play versus Wolverhampton. Anyways, these are my thoughts. Share statistics, if you disagree.
@@ashtonsmith9682 Anyone who claims Zerg is OP or imba based on Serral's performance has no idea what a statistical outlier is. In statistics, you always cut off results ,that are too far removed from the average or mean. For example: If you want to know the average temperature of objects in a kitchen with 50 objects in it and you can't measure all of them, you pick 10 at random. 9 of them are between 20° and 22° C, and one is at 200° C. If you don't recognize that this one hot object is a stove, you'll get a completely wrong impression about the average temp in that room - you'd think that the room was on fire, when in fact it's not. So you cut out the outlier - the stove - to get a more accurate result. Serral is just that - the stove in the kitchen, and he's literally on fire. Every other Zerg is not that good and numbers show it. Balance is a question of averages. And you can't find the average, if you base your statistics on outliers. On average, Zerg wins less than Terran, and Protoss wins even less than that. Further: Look at 2023 Premier tournaments. Terran won 4 out of 10, Zerg - excluding Serral - 2, Serral won 4. There were 2 TvT finals, no ZvZ. And if Serral wasn’t there, Clem would have slapped every other Zerg in Katowice and we’d have yet another TvT final. Again: Statistical outlier. He simply makes Zerg look that way and no one else can. Hence, if you remove Serral from the equation, Zerg’s win rates drop insanely.
I agree in general. The whole "Serral hasnt won any GSL" argument is silly, like you said, he has won many tournaments where all top Koreans participited. One thing about this whole Goat debate: i think its very relative. Each of this players was in a timeframe, when there was different opposition, different level of play.. Each of players like Maru, Rogue, even Neeb, was legendary.
@@ashtonsmith9682 I would agree if Serral would only be wining during the winFestor and ggLords era. But its simply untrue. Regardless of balance, Serral is the GOAT. And for me Terrans are more imba hten Zerg atm:)
@@marcelbenner993 Other zerg players are also playing well tho? Reynor and dark are no slouches. Dark is an even more unique outlier according to your stats. He plays Zerg completely wrong like a gold league player and still puts up good results consistently beating the best terrans and tosses.
I have enjoyed it BIG TIME. So thank you for your extra focus on YT. I just hope you feel its worth it, and that you keep it up. Love your puns, your speedy and very insightful commentating. Honestly you are the reason I watch SC2.
I was exhausted after game 2, so I can only imagine how Maru felt after that. Serral just looked unbeatable here. His infestor play seems to have only gotten better over time, they're like sharks, always waiting to strike.
I love what you do Winter, it's so brilliant. Your commentary, the way you know the game and the different layers, and show that to us. At 56:44 you call the game - 'Maru's given up'. Then at 57:11, Maru GG's. To which you respond 'oh Maru' and then cry. What a fucking beautiful thing to see in my 'I like watching SC2 commentary', the depth of your understanding of the game and then just how much you care about the players. Love your work man. Thank you
Winter, it was a pleasure watching this with your commentary. I watch alot of starcraft and I appreciate you the most. You combine great humor and wit with your high level of intelligence for the game. I am an aspiring Platinum player always trying to get better. You need to be casting these events and I hope that you will not be overlooked for long. Keep up the great work.
@@henkhenkste6076 if you don't like the way winter streams (humour, commentary, etc), then why watch? Don't criticise the person. Give a reason for your criticism
Well i have a lot to say. First off, great cast. Congratulations on 200k subscribers. I would love to see a celebration with Harstem and Lowko joining you for a cast. But i want them to bring soundboards and some of the silliness you provide. Sounds fun to me. Lol. I was super happy to see Maru make the finals. I think maybe he did beyter against Serral than Clem? What does everyone think? That second match was crazy! Longer than some movies I've seen. So what's left for Serral. Continuous dominance. What else can he achieve? How about a title with Protoss! Prove you are the greatest!
I just started watching right when you began in 2023, and I was hooked right away! Always makes my day better - thank you Winter and well deserved 200k!
The GOAT. The debate is over. Thank you Winter for making our days a bit better. Sincere congratulations for reaching 200k subscribers! I hope we see you reach 300k next year.
18:55 Adding to the map notes, however, that Radhuset is a zerg map, in as much as it's one of Serral's picks in the match (and e.g. like Hecate was Maru's).
I don’t really get why Radhuset is a Zerg map… At the time of writing, according to liquidpedia, TvZ is 50.8% Terran winrate on Radhuset… In PvZ it may be Zerg favored, but in TvZ it’s about equal if not Terran favored. I think Winter is more accurate saying it’s late game favored which for most Terran is an advantage to Terran but to the likes of Serral and Dark that makes it better for them.
@@pixielilla7369because serral said it is! (also its very open with many entrances to your bases) and afaik it was maru's pick (i think they said this in the tournament cast).
Reynor and Rotti were talking at the desk that Serral never forgets a game. No matter how small, he remembers every detail of every game he sees. Truly an unfair advantage.
I remembered them saying that when Maru did the same strategy on map 4 that he used vs Reynor. And Serral ended up holding a lot cleaner because of it.
He remembers every important game, and every good player. Chess masters do the same thing. But assuming he remembers them all is ridiculous. Serral has probably played fifty thousand games in his career, maybe more.
After this tournament I really think it’s undisputed - Serral is the greatest of all time. Dark was the only player who took a single map win from him the entire tournament. The dude is just on another level.
Man I used to be a rank 1 Masters Zerg player. I didnt realize prize pools were still pretty big. I wouldn't be able to hang today, but it's fun seeing a championship game again.
Unreal, thanks for the cast, you are my favorite caster, watch almost all your videos, and always leave a like, should probably give my prime to you 100%.
gratz on 200k subs! been watching off and on since the early days :) would be cool to cast 2v2s 3v3s or 4v4s for 200k special with korea pros and best of other regions
@@luckyrelic Even if you take Serral's wins out of the equation, Zergs have won more tournaments than any other race by a fairly significant margin. Zerg has been OP at the pro level for a while now. The fact that you deny it is laughable.
@@Aiphiae Come now. After it took three years of total domination to nerf Winfestors 8 years into the game, do you seriously expect people to have the capacity to notice Zerg being busted?
Hey, about the thanks and all, I don't play sc2 anymore but I've played for a while and following you was enough to give me great moments and a plat 2 with the great roach hydra. So, thanks for you as well, I surely can recommend, it made my road easier and funnier. Cheers.
1:21:40 Serral defends this all-inn from Maru while coordinating a perfect counter-attack so uncalled for that even we missed it killing a base and 20+ workers.
The match reminds me of the world final Serral vs Stats. Even before the games had started, Serral knew it is his series to loose and Stats looked defeated.
at minute 27;00 in-game timer (43:40) Maru starts fighting Serral having only twenty+ workers for another 13 minutes before giving up at (57:00) ... (meanwhile you're screaming "Zerg OP")
Absolutely incredible. Serral's performance here, not losing a map to Maru, or Clem was almost as stunning as Olievera's win last year. #GOAT P. S. The meme of Dark crowning Dark as #1 had me cracking up. 😂😂😂 P. S. S. Congratulations on 220K. I can't think of anyone who deserves it more.
Well today was one of the shittiest days of my entire life and this video was the first thing that put me in a good mood today, it was so exciting! Thanks for the upload and the commentary, Mr. Winter you are a true friend haha and I love it when you talk as a Zerg queen 🤣🤣 Btw I’m from Germany, my English is not so good and I have trouble understanding some English videos but your way of talking is so clean that I understand everything without using my brain 😅
@@mistervanderveer It makes no sense either, it was just an explanation for why my day sucked and that the video distracted me from it. I could have made it shorter but whatever
Serral is definitely a god tier level player, hes one of those guys that when the times are hard for a race shows you, there is always a way, you just have to up your level of play, and use the maps advantages to yo ur advantage, like that big map actually makes sense for hiding infestors, theres way more room to move them around and the terran wont spam scans everywhere from base to base.. so like it gives him advantages to hide them on the side and find moments of clumped units traveling over long distannces whigle he was waiting near by because of vision. man is like sun tzu art of war in sc2
LOL, he won 4 out of 7 Premiere tournaments and about 50% of major ones He was in, in 2023. He mostly lost to the later winners of the tournaments or zergs, which is his worst matchup (still better then everybody else but still). I don't think He looses on purpose otherwise He would not have such a ridiculous winrate of tournaments. He is just near perfect pretty much all the time. Not Zerg is OP but Serral.
Lol, balance is calculated from hundreds of tournament games, makes zero difference if Serral loses a few. Zerg is the weakest race at pro level for the last 5 months, so expect a buff that affects PvZ next patch if the trend continues.
@@hivetech4903 is that Ironie or did you mean protoss needs a buff, because except for Serral, TvZ is pretty balanced and the only race that is struggling is protoss, both in PvZ and PvT.
@@hunterghost1494 TvZ isn't really balanced...to play TvZ at that level your arm has to fall off after the tourney's like Clem's did and that was only dropping 2 games...one each to Serral and Dark. Its goddamned insane that they haven't deleted the baneling yet.
Spoilers: Game 2 was a banger, but you could see it broke Maru mentally. I'm surprised how long it took Serral to break him though. Game 1 felt relentless from Serral, like a snake strangling its victim. The oppressive presence of creep everywhere was so impressive to watch. It was all well under control tbh. Game 3 I liked the "just go and fucking kill him" energy, especially after the drawn out game full of Maru's suffering. Im surprised Maru didn't go for his trademark tilt proxy 2rax, especially after game 2. Game 4 was like straight out of hero's nightmares - endless zergling runbys everywhere
Game 2 was basically proof that Terran needs to be nerfed. Serral outplayed him the entire game, was literally trading even for the vast majority of it while completely controlling the map, he was controlling five or six burrowed infesters and three armies separately but he literally just couldnt win because pushing into mass ghosts is impossible.
@@2639theboss Maru played incredible that game, a more resource efficent terran (10k difference is common in late game) is the way that matchup was designed, Zerg always should be up one base or more. Serral destroyed Maru in every other game without a problem. Yes Serral is near perfect but in game two Maru was too, that was the reason it was such a close game. In the other Maru was not near perfect and that was enough to make it a onesided serie. Take Serral out of the equation and i think TvZ is pretty good balance wise for the Pro level. Lower level is another thing, but to balance a game for al level equaly is most likely impossible. The only race that is underpowered/ not stable enough in Pro level is Protoss.
people kept saying "we want a serral vs maru finals where both give their 100%" well, i finally came to the logical conclusion of if serral is playing at 100% he wont let you play at 100%. maru is great, but serral is just on a whole next level when he is playing at max capacity.
The greatest halluc of all time was when we all thought there was a 3rd race in Starcraft, you wouldn't know it from watching premiere tournaments, but there's actually a race called Protoss that also has pro players. Little known fact.
Is that the robot race that always loses? I always wonder why people pick that option. Seems financially irresponsible in a tournament with money on the line.
for the 200k its going to be cool if you do a podcast with Serrall, invite him over, talk it out, its gonna be cool. great games, one of the most brutal sweeps in finals I've seen honestly.
A few thoughts: Serral saying that he's just playing standard makes sense, because serral never had some weird quirks or certain styles, like scarlett was long-time known for extreme creepspread and aggressive plays, maru is known for micro and defensive plays, reynor is known for insane APM and also aggressiveness, showtime is being known for not dying. Serral is just known for being the best in about every aspect of the game, not at the very top of the line, but overall score being so far ahead of everyone else that he feels like being in a completely own league. The scouting, the unit splittin, the tiny details with individual unit control and almost never giving in to the F2 under stress is most characteristic for serral i feel. Preserving 3-4 lurkers by getting up a nydus when they're cornered, using nydus to transfer units in between bases, aggressively mining, pulling back in time is just so well done by him. The queen creeping is just a good thing to do if you can spare the APM :D In game 2, it's somewhat sad for maru how the game ended there, but on the other hand serral outplayed him so hard that game that it would've felt quite undeserved imo if maru won that. Game 4: With that earlygame, maru pulled ahead by so much and it doesn't feel like serral did any mistakes there, it feels like zerg just can't do very much if they didn't build roaches at that point. Serral coming back like he did then is all the more impressive, especially considering how basic maru's mistakes were there. Leaving 2-3 hellbats or even a bunker in each outer base would've completely denied those cheap runbys for serral.. But then again, maru seemed to be pretty worn out psychologically in these games.
Dude I love your cast I always contribute with the likes Jimmy ask you hahahaha, greetings from Mexico, SC2 player since 2010, re-learning the game since 4 months ago, love clem games! ggs gl hf!
Super random, but when you quick maths the remaining minerals on the map at 53:00, you guestimate about 40k minerals left over, which iirc is exactly how much you get with the SC1 cheat code "show me the money".
Serral feels like he has the widest range of apm, during the tournament he reached over 1400 apm for brief period and sometimes he plays with as low as 300 at times. He can do everything he needs when he needs to.
Do you think that they will eventually go down the route they did go with Flash in SC1, as in "nerf Serral"? For people who are unaware. Flash was so dominant that the Korean leagues decided to effectively "nerf" Flash by creating a map pool which was rather hostile towards terran. Funnily enough Flash was the only terran that could somehow deal with it. While he didn't win the tournament he still went very deep. Wonder if we might see something like that happen in SC2.
This is my superbowl!
Omg yes was thinking same thing, this is my sport!
That’s exactly what I was doing today during the sportsball. 😂
Same 😂
Same well said :)
Ah, yes. The superb owl, celebrated on the lunar New Year.
winter also winnin like the grand finals with that 200k subs, congrats.
36:29 Maru's triple scan at his own doorstep is really the PTSD from the last fight where one Infestor landed fungal on 7-8 ghosts and wiped them out
That tap out in game two, even as a Zerg main and a Serral fan boy, actually made me sad irl for Maru. Both of these players are legendary.
Mee too, Maru fought so hard
@@tranquochung1995but still got 4-0ed 😢
Game 2 broke him, you can tell maru was full on tilted after that
@@Jaguar-lr7jq I think Dark was the only one in the whole tournament to win a map against Serral.
I found it so funny when Maru laughed to himself after Serral landed one of his unending Fungals in Game 2.
Winter- grats on your best year yet. You've put in a lot of effort for a long time and your sub count is no mistake. Love the humor, soundboards, memes, and queen impersonations, and game knowledge you've built up over the years. You're one of my two favorite solo casters (alongside Harstem). Just curious - is it possible you'd ever co-cast with someone else during big live events?
It would be cool to cast live at events occasionally, but it is a ton of work on all sides of the camera.There are already plenty of great casters experienced with live events & production - I try to bring something a bit more business casual here on youtube
@@WinterStarcraft Understandable! Someone would have to pay the travel fees for Jimmy too, adding further complication. I will continue to enjoy your videos on UA-cam then :)
@@WinterStarcraft I prefer it this way. Just your genuine reactions and not trying to meet anyone's expectations. Keep it up!
@@WinterStarcraft You did great in Atlanta! This IEM I enjoyed the C-stream with Harstem and Lambo more than the A or B streams, feels less rigid, more casual as you say.
@@WinterStarcraft I prefer your casts over the official ones. You dont over do it with yelling and your humour is 5/5. 😊
Dark's the only one who managed to take a map from Serral this whole tournament.
Ayyy, next time put SPOILER ALERT.
@@AntiDoctor-cx2jd Dark makes miracles happen with nothing but a Roach/Rav maxout and a dream
One hour into the match when you made your thanks to the viewers, it hit different this time! Thank YOU man, you deserve it. Constantly deliver, funny, informative. Been watching you for years. Stay on it man! Congrats on 200k!!!❤
Congrats on 200k! I remember about 10 years ago, watching your stream and asking in chat what you like to do outside of SC2. You got kind of annoyed and said "your mom" and then talked about how it was a stupid question. Been a fan ever since :D
11:24 “And he is making his spire great again” 😂
0:55
On this GOAT debate:
- There is a player who achieved the Triple Crown twice, which only 2 other players achieved.
- There is a player who has the highest win rate vs Korean players in 5 years out of 13 StarCraft2 years (2018, 2019, 2020, 2022, 2023).
- There is a player who won the world championship twice (most wins among two others)
- There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against at least Top 100 players (47 consecutive wins)
- There is a player who holds the longest winning streak against top Koreans (19 consecutive wins; 2nd place the same player with 18 consecutive wins)
- There is a player who achieved an over 90% match win rate in a year (2023) overall - which no one else ever achieved
- There is a player who achieved an over 73% (73,24%) game win rate in a year (2023) vs Koreans
- which no one else ever achieved (closest is Serral with 69,86% in 2018 and Maru’s 69,44% also in 2023).
- There is a player who achieved an over 85% (!!!!) match win rate in three years (2018, 2020, 2023) vs Koreans. The next best other player being Maru with 78% in 2023 and herO with 74% in 2017.
- There is a player who has by far the most Premier Tournaments wins with top Korean Participation (16) and overall (25)
- There is a player who has NO negative win rate vs ANY pro player since his first Premier Tournament win in 2015 which he played on a regular basis (at least 10 games) - which no one else ever achieved
Here are these player’s records against these top Koreans (wins:Korean player wins: draws):
vs Maru: 13:4:2
vs Dark: 8:5:1
vs GuMiho: 10:4:0
vs Solar: 16:7:1
vs Cure: 17:3:0
vs ByuN: 12:5:0
vs Classic: 8:2:0
vs Bunny: 9:2:0
vs stats: 9:4:0
vs soO: 8:4:0
vs Innovation: 16:8:0
vs Rogue: 8:7:0
vs Trap: 14:3:0
vs Zest: 10:5:0
And here the records vs some top world players :
vs Reynor: 31:16:0
vs MaxPax: 18:4:0
vs Heromarine: 26:4:0
That player has been so dominant since his rise to the top in 2018 in Seoul that he won more tournaments - with participation of the best Koreans in the world - in 6 years of playing StarCraft 2 than all players who have been present among the top players for much longer.
That player is Serral. I have no idea how anyone can deny that Serral is the GOAT of StarCraft 2. Not one player comes even close to such a dominance over such a long period of time while at the same time amassing more important trophies in less time than anyone else.
Serral's win rate vs his weakest matchup (Zerg) is higher than most pro's overall win rates.
To anyone arguing flash = SC2 GOAT: Flash never had win rates that even come close to Serral's and had lower win rates than Innovation at time. He also was only present in SC2 for around 2 years. He definitely is the SC GOAT though.
To anyone arguing Innovation/Maru: These two both failed to show up on the really big stages. Maru only ever got a 2nd place at Worlds with his 2023 defeat against Oliveira. He didn’t do what sOs, ROgue or Serral did: Go to a big stage, where the best of the world compete and win.
The same is true for Innovation. Both Maru and him falter when competition from outside of Korea is present/when the big stage calls. Also both have lower win rates vs the top players and less achievements.
To anyone arguing sOs: sOs, who is a 2 time world champion, only has 5 premier tournament wins. If you consider Rogue and Serral, who also are in the debate, sOs falls short. The same holds true as for Innovation and Maru. Less achievements, less dominance.
Rogue has won 11 premier tournaments from 2017 to 2022. He, as well as Serral, won 2 Worlds.
Now let’s bring Serral into the equation. Out of his 25 premier tournament wins which span from 2018 to 2023, 16 are with top Korean participation, Serral won 2 World Championships. Him and Rogue in my opinion are the only two players who are consistent and showed up when the best of the world are present. They have achieved similar high end feats.
BUT: Serral has way more Premier Tournament wins (with top Korean participation and yet even more without) and was more dominant in his win rates and records versus other Korean players.
To people arguing that Serral never won a GSL. So what? He played the best of the best from GSL and defeated them time and again (see record vs these players and overall win rate vs Koreans above). Does anyone seriously believe Serral would not have won the GSL if he was born Korean? And at the same taking Premier titles away from players who now claim them? If anything, Serral's dominance would have been EVEN MORE apparent.
Plus Serral even went to Korea twice and both times won the GSL vs Worlds where the best of the GSL participated.
That argument sounds a little bit like this: Real Madrid (Serral) who defeated all Premier League teams (Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool etc.) in the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) is not better than Liverpool because it never played in the Premier League. The argument is absurd. The Premier League (Korea) sends its best teams (Maru, Dark, Rogue) to the Champions League (GSL vs World, World Championship, etc.) and these best teams get beaten by Madrid (Serral). No one in their right mind would argue that Madrid isn’t the best team in the world, simply because it didn't play versus Wolverhampton.
Anyways, these are my thoughts.
Share statistics, if you disagree.
Serral plays the cheater race. Thats why we deny it. Maru was winning back to back GSL when no terran was winning anything.
@@ashtonsmith9682
Anyone who claims Zerg is OP or imba based on Serral's performance has no idea what a statistical outlier is. In statistics, you always cut off results ,that are too far removed from the average or mean.
For example: If you want to know the average temperature of objects in a kitchen with 50 objects in it and you can't measure all of them, you pick 10 at random.
9 of them are between 20° and 22° C, and one is at 200° C. If you don't recognize that this one hot object is a stove, you'll get a completely wrong impression about the average temp in that room - you'd think that the room was on fire, when in fact it's not. So you cut out the outlier - the stove - to get a more accurate result.
Serral is just that - the stove in the kitchen, and he's literally on fire. Every other Zerg is not that good and numbers show it. Balance is a question of averages. And you can't find the average, if you base your statistics on outliers. On average, Zerg wins less than Terran, and Protoss wins even less than that.
Further: Look at 2023 Premier tournaments.
Terran won 4 out of 10, Zerg - excluding Serral - 2, Serral won 4.
There were 2 TvT finals, no ZvZ. And if Serral wasn’t there, Clem would have slapped every other Zerg in Katowice and we’d have yet another TvT final. Again: Statistical outlier. He simply makes Zerg look that way and no one else can. Hence, if you remove Serral from the equation, Zerg’s win rates drop insanely.
I agree in general. The whole "Serral hasnt won any GSL" argument is silly, like you said, he has won many tournaments where all top Koreans participited. One thing about this whole Goat debate: i think its very relative. Each of this players was in a timeframe, when there was different opposition, different level of play.. Each of players like Maru, Rogue, even Neeb, was legendary.
@@ashtonsmith9682 I would agree if Serral would only be wining during the winFestor and ggLords era. But its simply untrue. Regardless of balance, Serral is the GOAT. And for me Terrans are more imba hten Zerg atm:)
@@marcelbenner993 Other zerg players are also playing well tho? Reynor and dark are no slouches. Dark is an even more unique outlier according to your stats. He plays Zerg completely wrong like a gold league player and still puts up good results consistently beating the best terrans and tosses.
I have enjoyed it BIG TIME. So thank you for your extra focus on YT. I just hope you feel its worth it, and that you keep it up. Love your puns, your speedy and very insightful commentating. Honestly you are the reason I watch SC2.
Serrals performance is beyond anything anyone has achieved in this game; truly the GOAT.
CONGRATS ON 200K SUBS!!!
Watched it online but still wanted to see your commentary! Gratz to 200k, keep it up
Very Entertaining. I love the Granny Queen voices when their moments come up. Flipping funny.
Now this is my kind of SuperBowl.
Agreed, sc2 isnt rigged.
What an amazing match. I have to sound stilted to not spoil it but this was worth watching the whole way through. Thanks for commentating this match.
I was exhausted after game 2, so I can only imagine how Maru felt after that. Serral just looked unbeatable here. His infestor play seems to have only gotten better over time, they're like sharks, always waiting to strike.
Serral can get over run with hyper aggressive early plays, but Mari doesn't really do that except proxies...
Also called cheese
@@growtocycle6992 Even with the hyper aggressive early game, it's difficult to fully break Serral.
Well that's probably why they now nerfed infestors lol easier to see burrowed and they can't see as far burrowed
Those infestors in game 2 were insane. Great cast Winter!
He probably should've nerfed himself cuz now they're gonna nerf infestor x.x
I love what you do Winter, it's so brilliant. Your commentary, the way you know the game and the different layers, and show that to us. At 56:44 you call the game - 'Maru's given up'. Then at 57:11, Maru GG's. To which you respond 'oh Maru' and then cry. What a fucking beautiful thing to see in my 'I like watching SC2 commentary', the depth of your understanding of the game and then just how much you care about the players. Love your work man. Thank you
Serral looked untouchable. Just Dark took 1 map
Serral is like, "I guess I could use a new car, I'll take the money this time." lol.
"taking our good blue mineral jobs" rofl that was way funnier than it should have been
Winter, it was a pleasure watching this with your commentary. I watch alot of starcraft and I appreciate you the most. You combine great humor and wit with your high level of intelligence for the game. I am an aspiring Platinum player always trying to get better. You need to be casting these events and I hope that you will not be overlooked for long. Keep up the great work.
you need to work on your sense of humor and definition of intelligence...
@@henkhenkste6076 if you don't like the way winter streams (humour, commentary, etc), then why watch?
Don't criticise the person. Give a reason for your criticism
The 2nd map was absolutely insane... Brilliant series!
I'll go ahead and say it. This was definitely the IEM Katowice of the year.
Well i have a lot to say. First off, great cast. Congratulations on 200k subscribers. I would love to see a celebration with Harstem and Lowko joining you for a cast. But i want them to bring soundboards and some of the silliness you provide. Sounds fun to me. Lol.
I was super happy to see Maru make the finals. I think maybe he did beyter against Serral than Clem? What does everyone think? That second match was crazy! Longer than some movies I've seen.
So what's left for Serral. Continuous dominance. What else can he achieve? How about a title with Protoss! Prove you are the greatest!
Love your hearing your love for the game and its players. I never get tired of your anecdote about Serral’s “pretty standard business.”
I just started watching right when you began in 2023, and I was hooked right away! Always makes my day better - thank you Winter and well deserved 200k!
Been watching you for years man really glad you are sticking with it Starcraft is just nostalgic.
I haven't touched Starcraft 2 in years, but I still tune in to watch it on your channel :)
The GOAT. The debate is over.
Thank you Winter for making our days a bit better.
Sincere congratulations for reaching 200k subscribers!
I hope we see you reach 300k next year.
I already know this game is going to be a banger 🎉
Game 2 was the most fun match I have watched in a while. Wished Maru won that one that would've been epic.
18:55 Adding to the map notes, however, that Radhuset is a zerg map, in as much as it's one of Serral's picks in the match (and e.g. like Hecate was Maru's).
I don’t really get why Radhuset is a Zerg map… At the time of writing, according to liquidpedia, TvZ is 50.8% Terran winrate on Radhuset…
In PvZ it may be Zerg favored, but in TvZ it’s about equal if not Terran favored. I think Winter is more accurate saying it’s late game favored which for most Terran is an advantage to Terran but to the likes of Serral and Dark that makes it better for them.
@@pixielilla7369because serral said it is! (also its very open with many entrances to your bases) and afaik it was maru's pick (i think they said this in the tournament cast).
@@genesises In the tournament cast they specifically said Radhuset was Serral's pick. Hecate was Maru's. That's how the series' picks started out.
Serral makes zerg look so cinematic, it feels like how the zerg would actually operate
Winter thank you for the real super bowl of the year, you're awesome as always!
I forgot the actual super bowl was happening. Lol!!
Reynor and Rotti were talking at the desk that Serral never forgets a game. No matter how small, he remembers every detail of every game he sees.
Truly an unfair advantage.
He is like Magnus Carlsen
I remembered them saying that when Maru did the same strategy on map 4 that he used vs Reynor. And Serral ended up holding a lot cleaner because of it.
@@2nerC9high functioning autism
He remembers every important game, and every good player. Chess masters do the same thing. But assuming he remembers them all is ridiculous. Serral has probably played fifty thousand games in his career, maybe more.
@@2nerC9 Good comparison, he truly is the Magnus of Starcraft. Just an absolute beast.
35:16 excellent 'The Expanse' reference
@winterstarcraft this is the perfect definition of king of battles fight..
I really enjoy your casting on games. I only watch you right now, I have something to smile in every single one of your videos
After this tournament I really think it’s undisputed - Serral is the greatest of all time. Dark was the only player who took a single map win from him the entire tournament. The dude is just on another level.
How many times have all these players been "introduced" and re-re-reintroduced to us?
I was here for this SerralBowl. Congrats on 200K Winter!
thank you for the 1440p! Getting tired of the 1080p uploads for SC2 from everyone on youtube...in 2024 :D
Man I used to be a rank 1 Masters Zerg player. I didnt realize prize pools were still pretty big. I wouldn't be able to hang today, but it's fun seeing a championship game again.
HOLY SHIT Congrats on 200k Subs!!!!!!!!! What a game to cast!
Unreal, thanks for the cast, you are my favorite caster, watch almost all your videos, and always leave a like, should probably give my prime to you 100%.
gratz on 200k subs! been watching off and on since the early days :) would be cool to cast 2v2s 3v3s or 4v4s for 200k special with korea pros and best of other regions
I haven't play SC2 in like 6 years but I'm always down to watch top matches like this.
i like this line "Serral is inevitable" 😂
simply quite befitting whenever you play against Serral
Meh, Zerg OP.
@@Aiphiae lol.. cry moar...
@@luckyrelic Even if you take Serral's wins out of the equation, Zergs have won more tournaments than any other race by a fairly significant margin.
Zerg has been OP at the pro level for a while now. The fact that you deny it is laughable.
@@Aiphiae Come now. After it took three years of total domination to nerf Winfestors 8 years into the game, do you seriously expect people to have the capacity to notice Zerg being busted?
200k special: do classic stuff! Angry coaching, bunker train across the map, contest about best bronze legue heroes game over the years... much love
Thanks Winter, was a great series and well casted. Much appreciation to you (and Jimmy) for always bringing us the most professional SC2
Every day with WinterStarcraft is better!! Thank you for all the wonderful content and congrats on 200k!
wow 200k subs. I'm happy for starcraft, RTS and winter :)
gg on the 200k subs
Hey, about the thanks and all, I don't play sc2 anymore but I've played for a while and following you was enough to give me great moments and a plat 2 with the great roach hydra. So, thanks for you as well, I surely can recommend, it made my road easier and funnier. Cheers.
Excellent commentary as always!
highkey i would buy a textbook on each of the aces written by the leading players of each that would be sick af
1:21:40 Serral defends this all-inn from Maru while coordinating a perfect counter-attack so uncalled for that even we missed it killing a base and 20+ workers.
The match reminds me of the world final Serral vs Stats. Even before the games had started, Serral knew it is his series to loose and Stats looked defeated.
Congrats on the 200k subs and a big thanks to serral and maru for helping year long by providing incredible games to fuel your channel!
I hope you're doing just fine sir, keep doing your thing. Much love, brother.
Love you, Winter. Congrats on 200k subs. Keep it up
at minute 27;00 in-game timer (43:40) Maru starts fighting Serral having only twenty+ workers for another 13 minutes before giving up at (57:00) ... (meanwhile you're screaming "Zerg OP")
Absolutely incredible. Serral's performance here, not losing a map to Maru, or Clem was almost as stunning as Olievera's win last year. #GOAT
P. S. The meme of Dark crowning Dark as #1 had me cracking up. 😂😂😂
P. S. S. Congratulations on 220K. I can't think of anyone who deserves it more.
Awesome game, as a zerg in broodwar but never really got into SC2, these games are still fun to watch :) Serral is something else!
Well today was one of the shittiest days of my entire life and this video was the first thing that put me in a good mood today, it was so exciting! Thanks for the upload and the commentary, Mr. Winter you are a true friend haha and I love it when you talk as a Zerg queen 🤣🤣
Btw I’m from Germany, my English is not so good and I have trouble understanding some English videos but your way of talking is so clean that I understand everything without using my brain 😅
Wait, what? That first sentence makes no sense and how is it relevant to this video lol.
Anyway, hope youre doing fine mate.
@@mistervanderveer It makes no sense either, it was just an explanation for why my day sucked and that the video distracted me from it. I could have made it shorter but whatever
Serral is definitely a god tier level player, hes one of those guys that when the times are hard for a race shows you, there is always a way, you just have to up your level of play, and use the maps advantages to yo ur advantage, like that big map actually makes sense for hiding infestors, theres way more room to move them around and the terran wont spam scans everywhere from base to base.. so like it gives him advantages to hide them on the side and find moments of clumped units traveling over long distannces whigle he was waiting near by because of vision.
man is like sun tzu art of war in sc2
Your content got me into SC2. Here's to another 200k.
Serral is a genius, he loses tournaments to win the big cash ones so Zerg doesn’t get nerfed.
LOL, he won 4 out of 7 Premiere tournaments and about 50% of major ones He was in, in 2023. He mostly lost to the later winners of the tournaments or zergs, which is his worst matchup (still better then everybody else but still). I don't think He looses on purpose otherwise He would not have such a ridiculous winrate of tournaments. He is just near perfect pretty much all the time. Not Zerg is OP but Serral.
Yeah
Lol, balance is calculated from hundreds of tournament games, makes zero difference if Serral loses a few. Zerg is the weakest race at pro level for the last 5 months, so expect a buff that affects PvZ next patch if the trend continues.
@@hivetech4903 is that Ironie or did you mean protoss needs a buff, because except for Serral, TvZ is pretty balanced and the only race that is struggling is protoss, both in PvZ and PvT.
@@hunterghost1494 TvZ isn't really balanced...to play TvZ at that level your arm has to fall off after the tourney's like Clem's did and that was only dropping 2 games...one each to Serral and Dark. Its goddamned insane that they haven't deleted the baneling yet.
Game number two was like using a metalldetector looking for coins on the beach 😆 When searching for those infestors😎
Keep up the great work, Winter! Congrats on 200k subs!
Spoilers:
Game 2 was a banger, but you could see it broke Maru mentally. I'm surprised how long it took Serral to break him though.
Game 1 felt relentless from Serral, like a snake strangling its victim. The oppressive presence of creep everywhere was so impressive to watch. It was all well under control tbh.
Game 3 I liked the "just go and fucking kill him" energy, especially after the drawn out game full of Maru's suffering.
Im surprised Maru didn't go for his trademark tilt proxy 2rax, especially after game 2.
Game 4 was like straight out of hero's nightmares - endless zergling runbys everywhere
your game1 description was poetic af
I suppose Serral would be more energetic each game when 150k is dangling in front of his eyes.
Game 2 was basically proof that Terran needs to be nerfed. Serral outplayed him the entire game, was literally trading even for the vast majority of it while completely controlling the map, he was controlling five or six burrowed infesters and three armies separately but he literally just couldnt win because pushing into mass ghosts is impossible.
@@2639theboss Maru played incredible that game, a more resource efficent terran (10k difference is common in late game) is the way that matchup was designed, Zerg always should be up one base or more. Serral destroyed Maru in every other game without a problem. Yes Serral is near perfect but in game two Maru was too, that was the reason it was such a close game. In the other Maru was not near perfect and that was enough to make it a onesided serie. Take Serral out of the equation and i think TvZ is pretty good balance wise for the Pro level. Lower level is another thing, but to balance a game for al level equaly is most likely impossible. The only race that is underpowered/ not stable enough in Pro level is Protoss.
In the game 1 Serral screwed up Maru's plans right from the start and then was asserting dominance with the overlord'n'queens creep-spreading trio
people kept saying "we want a serral vs maru finals where both give their 100%" well, i finally came to the logical conclusion of if serral is playing at 100% he wont let you play at 100%. maru is great, but serral is just on a whole next level when he is playing at max capacity.
To be fair, Game 2 was really close, I could see Serral losing that game.
@@MyriadColorsCM Its just because Zerg is overpowered
@@RyanMoreaunothing to do with the fact serral's win rate is over 90% and the next closest Zerg, Dark, is 65%. Right?
@@RyanMoreaucopium is overpowered
@@thertcll No Zerg is overpowered! Unbelievable
The greatest halluc of all time was when we all thought there was a 3rd race in Starcraft, you wouldn't know it from watching premiere tournaments, but there's actually a race called Protoss that also has pro players. Little known fact.
Is that the robot race that always loses? I always wonder why people pick that option. Seems financially irresponsible in a tournament with money on the line.
for the 200k its going to be cool if you do a podcast with Serrall, invite him over, talk it out, its gonna be cool. great games, one of the most brutal sweeps in finals I've seen honestly.
Hi Winter, just want to say that your uploads improve my day, thank you for what you do.
Please cast Serral vs Dark from day 4 as well. That match was amazing
Hecate is a gorgeous map. seral looks so much better than before...he was already scary, but now...damn
"You know what they say. That which doesn't kill you leaves you with a massive repair bill and a lot of emotional trauma." Best line ever!!
A few thoughts:
Serral saying that he's just playing standard makes sense, because serral never had some weird quirks or certain styles, like scarlett was long-time known for extreme creepspread and aggressive plays, maru is known for micro and defensive plays, reynor is known for insane APM and also aggressiveness, showtime is being known for not dying. Serral is just known for being the best in about every aspect of the game, not at the very top of the line, but overall score being so far ahead of everyone else that he feels like being in a completely own league. The scouting, the unit splittin, the tiny details with individual unit control and almost never giving in to the F2 under stress is most characteristic for serral i feel. Preserving 3-4 lurkers by getting up a nydus when they're cornered, using nydus to transfer units in between bases, aggressively mining, pulling back in time is just so well done by him. The queen creeping is just a good thing to do if you can spare the APM :D
In game 2, it's somewhat sad for maru how the game ended there, but on the other hand serral outplayed him so hard that game that it would've felt quite undeserved imo if maru won that.
Game 4: With that earlygame, maru pulled ahead by so much and it doesn't feel like serral did any mistakes there, it feels like zerg just can't do very much if they didn't build roaches at that point. Serral coming back like he did then is all the more impressive, especially considering how basic maru's mistakes were there. Leaving 2-3 hellbats or even a bunker in each outer base would've completely denied those cheap runbys for serral.. But then again, maru seemed to be pretty worn out psychologically in these games.
Dude Serral is just on point right now. Winter get practicing for rank roulette because this guy is at the zone.
Serral took a tactical 4th place in rank roulette so he can destroy everyone in the finals😁
Serral is the GOAT. Highest MMR in history of SC2, most wins, and he did it as a zerg too.
which is by far the strongest race in pro play for...years?
@@jacobreichert836 Maru's 7 championship wins present a strong argument for terran being the ultimate race. Until Serral did what he did this game.
10:30 i think it's funny when he says this and the arm meter fades serral's apm spikes to 638 😂
watched this live, the game on Radhuset Station had me on the edge of my seat the entire time.
"that which doesnt kil you leaves you with a massive repair bill and a lot of emotional trauma"
i need that on a t shirt
Dude I love your cast I always contribute with the likes Jimmy ask you hahahaha, greetings from Mexico, SC2 player since 2010, re-learning the game since 4 months ago, love clem games! ggs gl hf!
Super random, but when you quick maths the remaining minerals on the map at 53:00, you guestimate about 40k minerals left over, which iirc is exactly how much you get with the SC1 cheat code "show me the money".
For your 200k sub special. It would be cool to see you play against some of your fans. 1v1 maybe even do teams.
Winter, thank you for your work. You are by far the most entertaining SC2 caster. Cheers!
Fantastic games out from Maru and Serrel! Maru fought hard! GG!
i watch this channel a ton . Love the narrator !!! He is so good !!!
Congrats on 200k, well deserved.
This whole tournament looked like Serral just came, took his 500 grand and played some StarCraft II.
Well that money is the prize pool
do a fan tournament for your 200K special, that would be pretty cool!
Here’s my idea for a 200k special - angry coach on your own replays lmao. Congrats Winter!
Congrats to 200k my guy!
Serral feels like he has the widest range of apm, during the tournament he reached over 1400 apm for brief period and sometimes he plays with as low as 300 at times. He can do everything he needs when he needs to.
The nerves of steel they had in game 2, to even consider a draw!?!
Do you think that they will eventually go down the route they did go with Flash in SC1, as in "nerf Serral"? For people who are unaware. Flash was so dominant that the Korean leagues decided to effectively "nerf" Flash by creating a map pool which was rather hostile towards terran. Funnily enough Flash was the only terran that could somehow deal with it. While he didn't win the tournament he still went very deep. Wonder if we might see something like that happen in SC2.
They have been for two years.