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Been waiting for this kind of video for a long time. High-level D&D and Pathfinder is really hard to balance for a party of any size. I often run a one-on-one game for my wife with her as the only player, and she prefers high-level D&D / Pathfinder. Let me tell ya, it’s HARD. Thanks for this! Brings up some new perspective.
I've been running a campaign for my daughter for the last seven years and she really likes the high level content too. I created around two dozen classes so that we could take 5e to fiftieth level. 21-30 are immortals trying to amp up their power. 31-40 are angels, gods, really powerful dragons, and a special class of wizard which get political and start to rule entire planets. 41-50 are cosmic powers like, Death, Justice, Infinity, Eternity, etc, which have agendas like the sacred timeline or protecting mortals from the war between heaven and hell. When I categorize the adventure types by those level categories, it really helps. Also, sometimes she plays new characters in her capital city and gets to experience what her city looks like from a low level perspective. Basically combining something new with recycled past content. Having her low level character interact with her high level character is fun too when there is a messenger between them.
@@Viper3220 It was definently crazy. Last Christmas she lead an army of undead monsters and flying ships and fought her way layer by layer to the lowest layer of hell to put it under "new management". It was awesome and I saved it all on video. :-)
I think this might be the best video I've heard on running high level D&D. Having recently finished my first campaign, in which the players reached level 20 (5e), I can see how each of these would improved the experience for me and the players. Thanks for sharing! One thing my players and I found fun for concluding the campaign was me asking the players what they wanted their character's legacy to be. Each had ideas that made me excited for when we return to that setting, and just a little sad to say goodbye to those player characters.
I love the background music and especially the transitions. It really meshes well with the more laid back vibe Jim gives being the only speaker. It's really amazing how quickly Web DM found its "new voice" if you will. I've seen countless content creators have to shift formats and it almost always takes multiple attempts and ends in varying degrees of sucess. Ya'll nailed it.
@@WebDM YES! You are doing a WONDERFUL JOB!! I will continue to miss Pruitt-- but you are absolutely killing it, keep it up, I still LOVE Web DM & get so much from watching your channel!!❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Tip 4 is super important. I DM almost all the time so I’ve never done tier 4 play as a player, but if I got that far and was unable to affect the world on a bigger scale, I’d be really upset. Those characters are *meant* to be world-shapers, they’re *meant* to fundamentally change the setting, and they deserve to
Do they though? Let's look at Forgotten Realms for a moment. On the Sword Coast alone you have a dozen of mythical characters around at the same time. They can barely keep Waterdeep together. No one's heard of them on the other side of the continent. The setting you're playing in might be different, sure, but all setting I've encountered would realistically have people trying to subvert whatever your characters are doing once they become high level. Why would the world, all its gods, all its heroes just LET you dominate everything? Your characters are the big bads for someone else.
@@yaldabaoth2 Just because somebody "deserves" something doesn't mean they don't have to work for it. In this case, the pc's are powerful beings with the ability to have a major effect on the world around them. If the players want to change the world in massive ways and have the abilities that let them, then of course they'll try and use them. It'd be stupid for a dm to say "no you can't do that" when the players literally can. Where the game and story come in is npc's that try to stop the characters from doing whatever it is they're doing, point them in different directions, or otherwise mess with the characters' plans. Of course not everything the players say goes, but it's pointless if they don't get to use any of their grand power for anything. Like Jim said, the setting is just as much the players' as it is the dm's, and it can be super cool when players get the chance to help shape it, especially with the characters they've come to know and love.
As a DM that has felt burnt out because of the high level campaign I'm running: I needed this. This has reinvigorated my excitement for my campaign. Thank you!
Pros of new content: I can listen to Jim Davis lofi all day long, shit is like my dad watching golf my midday naps have never been more restful. Cons: I feel like having a costar to roll with makes it seem more organized and easier to follow.
Quality, as always. Another tip for DMs: Just like He-man, you have the power! There is NOTHING the players can hit you with that you cannot overcome. But this isn't a call to beat them down; now is your chance to do something bonkers with little to no downside. For example, damage immunities are seen as an end point. Once you get fire immunity, fire holds no fear or wonder for you. That need not be the case. The game and its lore alone fly in the face of it. The Elemental Plane of Fire is home to the Sultan of the City of Brass. He and Kossuth, the non-evil god of fire, can both produce flame that is so profound that even creature that are immune to fire and native to the plane take FULL DAMAGE from their fire. Another example is just to make a legendary exception. If a creature you bring to the table doesn't just simply have legendary actions but is legendary in its truest sense, that creature should be able to do at least one thing at tier four play that slaps down conventions and defies expectations. A CR 25 lich BBEG might be able to cast more than one leveled spell per turn, or an ancient dragon can be the size of a literal mountain (with its own relative gravity), and it can see into the present, past, or future as easily as a dark elf uses darkvision. And that is just the beginning. Genius Loci, Soul Rot, puzzles on the scale of entire castles, time-loop traps, arcano-cyborg beholders, world wars, and so much more. Game on.
Thank you so much for this video! I've run two full campaigns and am currently running a third, all of which have entered tier 4 play, and my play experience has absolutely not matched up with the vast majority of what people have been saying online. However, it HAS meshed very much with everything you said in this video! I was worried that there was something weird about my table/group, but just the reassurance from this video alone was worth the watch. There was some great advice too that I can't wait to put to use.
As a DM for going on for over 40 years it is so refreshing to hear from someone who isnt afraid of running high level games for crazily powerful characters. Very good advice. I would add It's all about the characters not a dms preconceived plans and The dice never lie. Thanks again and happy holidays.
While I agree that a dm should never be too attached to their plans and allow the flow of the story to be organic with the party for the most of it. I've always hated the saying that it's all about the players because the DM is a player too imo. If I'm spending hours of my free time throughout the week preparing for a session or world building I'd like to have some fun too. That can be through things like seeing major story beats I planned come to fruition, seeing how my players deal with specific encounters or puzzles I've made etc
I DM high level D&D. I've had multiple long term high level campaigns at this point. Its been super fun. My first BBEG battle started with the players going in as flying triceratops to attack the BBEG. It was a massively fun time. The main thing that has helped me for high level D&D, is feel free to make *deadly encounters*. Trust in your players ability to circumvent enemy stats and overcome the challenge. Also, give your BBEG a couple hundred more HP when prepping. Because paladin smites will do over 100 damage easy. I wish you all the best and as a DM, make sure you check in with your players. High level play is all about communication and teamwork, DM included.
I'm actually just wrapping up a campaign that's ending at level 17. My players just slayed a (heavily modified) Tarrasque. It was a serious challenge as a DM, but has been a goal of mine since I started running dnd to run at this level. The bug issue was combats became at lot less frequent as random encounters just weren't worth it anymore, but the ones we had were super epic and deadly.
Really like the take on mindset you led on with. It's been my experience that a lot of people either don't know how to 'take their fun seriously,' or they don't trust the people around them enough to commit to that. Everyone knows the smartass at the table that names their character 'HulkSmash' and just won't change it because lols, the person that memes their way from scene to scene and won't put their phone down, and the friend that is irritated by someone else and they *could* choose to deal with it later...but takes every opportunity to jump into an argument regardless of the obvious un-chill vibes they are dropping on the night. They're at every table at one point or another...and of course there's (a lot) more. These people never fail to dismantle what could be a powerful, cinematic experience and *ensure* it isn't. That isn't to say that these antics aren't endearing in some ways, because they can be - and laughing until you are about to cry is a great thing but not every game session needs to be that. This is by far the thing that gets in the way of pencil and paper RPG gaming period, but comes to the fore at high levels. Most players are looking for a dice to roll and a legendary beast to slay - they don't want to tell a story they just want to win and be told they are winning. You put a table full of dukes, thanes, and barons in front of them for critical peace and military negotiations that are aggressive, sharp-minded, and strategic...and they get bored. "Yeah I bitch slap him." "Yeah I take my sword out and swing." "Yeah I use a cantrip and squeeze grapefruit juice into his eyes." They don't have the mindset to meet the scene in front of them because they only thing they are committed to is being amused...and if they aren't being amused by someone else, they will be happy to use everyone's evening to supply themselves with entertainment.
I'm really appreciating these high level ones since my current campaign is going in that direction. I typically only do low level and maybe max out around 10 because I'm not a fan of the superheroes and like the dirty grimy gritty part of the low levels. So thanks for the advice because my experience is lacking lol
The way I kept my level 20 game relatively grounded was by having the characters have to deal with organizational politics and logistics. Oh the level 20 wizard with epic boons has 3 ninth level spell slots and can make simulacra. Well if you want an army with you the army needs to be paid, trained, fed, armed, supplied and led by someone who actually understand warfare on a strategic and theatre level and not just small unit tactics. At this point for the group they started calling in favors from other groups and religious orders they helped over the campaign and the wizard spent a lot of time making money using simulacrum and wish to get funding while also using Spelljammer ships to hire outside help so that the players don’t crash the economy of the Sword Coast. Discussing the implications of economic inflation will make most people realize they are not all powerful if they have any care about what happens to the people in the setting.
This is hands down my favorite video you have done so far. I love the clear, personal engagement and honest approach. It's applicable and direct input. I also value the video because of running fairly long games personally that always tend to evolve into high level play and this video could not have said it better for any DM wanting to play in that direction. Thank you
I'm proud to say that group's favorite campaign after a decade of gaming is a modified Rise of Tiamat campaign I ran, with personalized dungeons and stuff that slowly took them up to level 17 over the course of 2 years. I had always said I only liked the very lowest of levels, my players liked 3-8 but I liked 1-5. This has changed, at least partially. the later levels were the most fun of that campaign for everyone. I basically gave them Superman's world of cardboard speech, because I could make an ever-changing feywild dungeon spill into a ancient dragon ritual spill into a mindflayer hive with a brainstealer dragon. And people struggled, some died or had to be revived, and it was a BLAST. I could just throw my party COOL LOOT, and as long as I listened to my players and made sure to give them all moments to shine it was a wonderful. Especially since a lot of my stuff had some risk to the reward, massive AOEs can backfire for instance. Essentially the best moments were a point where I said "ok you have 4 months before your army arrives, but due to teleportation circles you can get there within a week from near anywhere on this continent, how are you going to acquire power?" The elf found her people just in time to rescue them from mindflayers, the kalashtar led the party to an ancient temple dragged into the feywild to give restore her patron spirit's full power, the human dragged everyone to a party on a quest to get Amn on thier side...then abandoned it after they got the artifact and realized they didn't want AMN to have access to even minor temporal powers. But everywhere they went they had IMPACT. they set armies in motion after them, or gained the eye of a powerful demon or patron, or suddenly found themselves fleeing when they found the immesurable depths of what trouble the got themselves into with thier arrogance. but even when they lost, half the party wiped, or were cursed, or what have you...they were still amazed. Because they weren't sneaking around hoping a tiny tribe of bullywog harrassing a little backwater didn't notice them, they moved people, for better or for worse. That, to me, is what high level is about...As long as the players also realize that sometimes what they set into motion might be for the worse.
This video inspired me to bring back my campaign that had reached tier 4 and fizzled out due to my own nerves from running high level play. Now I got some fresh ideas and the content of the video helped revitalize the necessity to continually challenge myself as a game master. As always, thank you for your unending guidance and wisdom Mr. Davis.
Super happy for this video! I definitely think more people need to openly talk about high level DnD. Converse, share and compare with others so that it won't be this "scary thing" as well as help others who go to high tier. I definitely need to work on tip 6! Thanks again for the wonderful video.
One trick for keeping things interesting at every tier of play is introducing a mirror match up villain party. Think the Linear Guild from Order if the Stick. How do you stat these nemesis characters? 1.Take the sidekick rules from Tasha's. 2. Give each "sidekick" stat block levels in sidekick classes equal to the PC they're supposed to mirror. 3. Then give them all the subclass features from any subclass you think would be funny to put against that PC's chosen subclass. It can be the opposite thematic class like pitting life cleric vs death cleric. Or the same class. Life vs life, and anything in between. Hell, pitting a battlemaster fighter against a berserker barbarian can be fun. 4. Give the nemesis party whatever bases, vehicles, and political powers they need to constantly show up and pester the PCs. The Acquisitions Incorporated book is great for this.
That'll work well once, maybe twice, but aside from divine GM intervention, one party is just going to win in an open confrontation. It's not like Pokemon's Gary who you encounter over and over and you both just keep leveling. If you leash your players or the nemesis party and prevent them from properly interacting, it'll get either toothless, annoying, or both.
That's why the leader of the nemesis party is a caster with 3 or 4 escape spells and the half the party the PCs kill gets replaced with revolving door minions. Then a coup happens off camera and the PCs start asking what happened to that one guy when he stops showing up. Realistically though, it's not that hard to give invulnerability to a nemesis party. Strixhaven just came out. If your campaign is set there or in any other sort of adventuring academy the party will have class rivals who they keep butting heads with and aren't allowed to outright kill. Same if your party is employed by a guild or mercenary company that has multiple teams. Every time the PCs go to the bounty board to look for work have them bump into the prick from the other team and have him dole out sarcastic remarks on the jobs they pick. Then stage a final battle with the nemesis party in which the leaders of the guild or academy are killed and the PCs are left in charge of day to day running of the organization. And that running of a globe spanning organization is tier 3 and 4 play.
Started doing prep today for a Gith Knight one-shot coming up this weekend. I wanted to go all in. Red Dragons, planeshift, elder brain. The whole deal. Definitely a lot to manage. Just saw this come up on my feed. It was meant to be. Keep up the great work!
I completely agree with #5. If the players can get from tier 1 to 4 in the matter if months, so can so many others. In my campaigns, magic is more normalized
Solid advice Jim! The Tier 4 hype is nonsense. DMs have to remember that character abilities scale up at higher levels but so do their adversaries. Give a bad guy a boat load of feats that suits the challenge you want to create. The NPC enemies do not and should not progress through levels like character do. If you want to challenge the characters, throw an enemy at them that crits on a natural 15. That’s a 25% chance to crit on each attack. Give them multiple attacks, legendary actions or regeneration. I’m breaking the rules for my upcoming campaign where characters will start at 16 level. The rule I am breaking is for some enemies, they will remain invisible even when they attack. You can get creative and really challenge them. Parties live for that and putting them on edge makes for memorable game play. One last thing - throw a hundred enemies at them that are low level and maybe have a couple hit points each. They’ll have a blast totally dominating, then after chewing up some of their resources, have a reasonably difficult boss emerge. That’ll get them shaking in their boots
This is one of the things that always gets me in DND and in Pathfinder. In the 20 years I've been playing these games I always run across the forums and boards and chat rooms that people will do what I call Whiteboard Tabletop. Where they throw up everything in the rule books up on a white board and talk about how broken the mechanics are and how players can one shot this or subvert that or do this or can do that. How they power level these characters with specific equipment and specific magical items and specific everything. But then in actual play, at the table, all this whiteboarding and planning they do is barely 1% of what happens ever in the state of play. Yea your wizard might have known a spell to instantly destroy the world, but since youve been telling your DM about it for weeks, the DM just adds in something to stop it with the roll of a die. Yea your CoDzilla or Gish can buff up with 90 buffs before a dungeon, but your DM brings up time passing as you are doing stuff that doesn't involve combat and soon you are out of time. Or you get ambushed before you can do your buff chance All of these problems they bring up as High level of play and what the players can do really rarely ever are an issue in the game itself. Especially with a group of players you can trust and work well with
good discussion. I like the new format. background music is nice too. I've run tier 4 in 5e before and it's difficult to change the mindset, but, it does take a different approach to adventure design. Best bit of advice was to be ready to destroy your world. before I started my first 1-20 game in a homebrew world, it was a world I had been designing for nearly 15 years. in one year of game play, it was destroyed...and it was glorious.
With my homebrew campaign I’m running, I’m actually adjusting as I go for the level they are at, with the plan of going to 20 and the formula I found isn’t always in combat , it’s allowing their decisions and interactions to make an impact (good or bad) and that won’t ever change which makes DnD what it is. That being said they’re level 6 right now so we’ll see lol
I've been in a campaign that has been running for over three years now. We started at level one and we are now at level nineteen. My mountain dwarf fighter character just found the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords. We are planning on taking the campaign to Epic levels.
On a theoretical level I understand what you mean about "not being a fan of the PCs" in regards to fairness and stakes, but in practice I struggle with that because I find it difficult to figure out how to make the campaign personally tailored to the players if the characters have the potential to change often. When I'm coming up with the outline of the campaign's plot and when I'm planning for the smaller arcs of individual adventures I frequently mine the characters' backstories for NPCs or themes. If a PC was a driving factor in a big adventure, I'm worried that that thread would just be dropped and then I have to scramble and struggle with coming up with a bunch of new stuff and try to bring this new character in, and it sounds really daunting. I know that if I just dropped this idea of a cohesive "story" for the campaign that would solve my problem, but I REALLY want to do it this way because my favorite campaign I ever played in was super personalized to the characters playing in it and I want to create a similar feeling for this group. I'm just intimidated by the amount of work I'd have to do in order to improvise the story all the time AND keep it unique and personal. Is there ANYTHING anyone can think of that would make this more balanced without just scrapping the feeling of personalization I'm going for?
This HP change keeps lower levels alive long enough to develop a character and keeps a high level on their toes and paying attention ! This is a system I developed in 1987 , it's based of of size race constitution and more importantly keeping the game interesting as ones character increases in levels . First a race needs to be determined for a character this will put the hit points in a size range small medium large there is also extra large but that's more for creatures than characters . Small being 0-3' Medium 3'- 8' Large 8'-18' and ExLarge 18'+ Hit points being based off of a 1d12 per ft with -1hp per dice for S. a +1hp per dice L. and a +2hp per dice for ExL. M. receives no penalty or bonus. Racial Adjustment Human no adjustment, Halfling a -1per hp dice , Half Elf -1-2per hp dice , Elf -1-3per hp dice , Gnomes no adjustment this is based off of their hardiness off setting their small stature this brings us to Dwarves +1-6per hp dice and half orcs +1-2per hp dice adjustment . Now one will say well this is fine and dandy for characters but what about creatures will this is where your experience and skills of a DM comes into play , there's a reason people are joining you for a game they trust your expertise and honesty to make appropriate calls on adjustments in figuring HP's and damage for example a battalion of archers that's a 1000 men raining a 1000 arrows down on a dragon isn't going to do anything even though one arrow could kill a human . So don't be lazy this system will give your game a much more realistic feel so take the time to figure HP's for creatures at first this will be time consuming but once your used to it it will be more like second nature a quick judgement on size and hardiness of the creature and boom you'll know an appropriate number. So in figuring a S. character 1d6+or-, M no more than 1d8+or-, L no more than 1d10+or-, ExL no more than 2d20+or- such creatures as dragons HP Adjustment for Strength 3-7 strength -1hp per point below an 8 8-14 strength no adjustment 15-18/50 +1 HP per point over 14 no additional until a score of 18/51 - 18/99 an additional+1 and a score of 18/00 +2 HP Adjustment for Constitution 3-7 -1per point under a score of 8 8-14 no adjustment 15-18 +2 HP per point over the score of 14 . HP Adjustment Based off of Sex Males none females - 1d6 but +1d6 for Charisma . Now what makes this so different and challenging is that first your players actually have the ability to make it past 1st level because they start off with substantial HP's secondly it's based of of something that actually makes sense in the game and finally once a character hits 6th level he/she better be using their witt's because your HP's don't adjust. Less the DM has adjusted them permanently for some reason. So there ain't no having 13th level fighter having a 130+ HP's ! Submitted for your consideration please let me know your thoughts I would love a critique. Speaking of a critique I obviously jumped the gun with your system ! Yes it's important to keep the game moving and again this is where the DM's expertise comes into play I whole heartily agree with the none important creatures the ones there as filler , to push the campaign in a certain direction and such .
This is an awesome video on this topic. I see so much negativity around high-level play that as someone who’s never had the opportunity to participate in it I’ve been kind of put off it in the past, so it’s reassuring to see a more positive but still helpful discussion on it. I’m running my first game at the moment (played for a few years before this) and this is really helpful. The players are a long way off this level of play and it’s possible they’ll want to move on to new characters before then, but I want to be prepared for the day it happens 😂 It’s probably a bit nebulous as there’s so many areas to look at, but I’d love to see a video with your advice on how to self-evaluate our DM skills and then work on improving them. Things like what to look out for, what kinds of resources would be helpful for improving in each area, etc.
Tier 4 is the best tier both as player and Dm. it is when the stakes can be as high or little as you like, so much freedom and opportunity to be creative and in a world, you have likely spent months/years adding to. Richer and more fun in literally every way.
Great advice. Hitting tier three soon and I was like maybe it’s time to stop. Dungeon craft and rune hammer often say that high level d&d sucks. But this inspired me. If we can go the distance, I’m down! I’ve never DM’d high level d&d.
Great video! I do not want people to be scared of figure out 4th tier. This really should be part of normal dnd, 4th is a true super hero and Leader of nations game, take advantage of that.
Thanks for this. Just in time for my party to hit level 30 in my homebrew lmfao. We're two years in, and about to do the final questline if act 2, which prompts act 3, the war arc, where shit is about to get even crazier than it's been. My party now consists of 4 avatars of different gods, so balancing is getting a little out of whack. We still have another several months, to a year to go, and it gets harder every week to balance this shit lol. That being said I'm doing very good considering. Most DMs don't have a clue how to run high level campaigns, and just start freaking out and throwing random shit in the mix. I've learned how to properly challenge my players in more indirect ways. Combat is still smooth and fun, the enemies just die much quicker now.
DMs, please give RP options to encounters that can be resolved by talking. Like, tiers 1-3 PCs spend a lot of time in combat, navigating traps, solving puzzles, etc because they're not terribly important and bad guys have no reason to listen to them. By tier 4 a PC is known by name in places near and far and is recognizable in the region they're adventuring in. Unless the bad guy is a god or a lich they know who the PC is and may hesitate to have a go at them. Of course RP encounters are the perfect setup for traps and misdirection but honestly I love the idea that some Renfield-type NPC is scared of the PCs and even though he's got a scary master the master isn't there at the moment and the PCs are. 👀 I have a 20th level PC that I use in Adventurer's League games and she's an absolute terror to her enemies. Y'Laina is a Dreadlord in the Zhentarim and a minor noble in Mulmaster...and a Cleric of Bane. No sane person who lives on the Material Plane wants someone like that mad at them. 😂
For me the hardest part of high level is surviving the wait between turns as the (anybody but our wonderful Champion Fighter player) changes their decision and has to re-evaluate the impact that their new choice of spell (or spell equivalent) has on the battlefield. It's exhausting how long turns take. ZzzzZzz I personally don't find it hard to challenge my players. I can always make a bigger fish*. I have a pretty good band of people I play with, they don't tend to run rampant when they get a little bit of power (besides forgetting what Thunderstep does and casting it on the doorstep of the inn). But my experience at high level is that it sways between the heroes feeling god-like outside of combat, and then getting swept by the raw brutality of the encounter I prepared. They noted that this is the same as they felt at levels 1-2. The published game material has convinced my players that from level 1 they are special and better than all the NPCs, but then when they hit combat even little kobolds are doing as much as they are. Which causes dissonance with them about how "cool" their characters are. Then the same thing happened at high levels, and they felt like a difference of 14 levels hadn't changed the feeling of how the characters play, unless it's that the dissonance gap is even bigger. *My 16th level players once violated an agreement with Pazuzu while in the Abyss, and I dropped enough Aaracokra and vrocks, as well as Pazuzu itself, on them that they literally aborted their mission and fled back to Sigil.
Ahhh, 3.x memories of high level play... Player (before game): You aren't challenging us enough. Me (during game): The Aboleth Savant casts prismatic wall behind you. Player: Okay Me (next round): Then he casts telekinesis at you, towards the wall. Player: Uhhhh... Me: You said I wan't challenging you enough. Roll 8 saving throws. Me: Okay, this entire city is underwater, so it won't burn like the last four. Another Player: Oh, really. Me: Yes, it's a challenge. That player (later): Didn't you give me that Cold Fire. It will burn in water, won't it? Me: Dammit! Yes. Okay, you set fire to it. That Player: Sweet! Me: Okay, you are attacked by a Flesh Colossus. Third Player (my gf at the time): I can turn into a Colossal creature Me: Uhhh, yes you can. Third Player: I turn into a Colossal Squid. And I grapple it. Me (Several Dice rolls later): Sigh, you grapple it successfully. Third Player: I drag it down into the abyss and feed it fish down there. Me: Sigh.
I had a thought involving the Mercer effect. Its interesting how many toxic individuals like to say that Matt is just not good at DMing because of their experience of the Mercer effect, yet it almost seems factual that he is a great DM, specifically in high level play, considering the many ending arcs of Vox Machina's campaign, and simply how engaged and satisfied the players seemed to be with it.
One of the things I've really liked about 5th edition is how the simple advantage/disadvantage system remains rock solid at _any_ level, regardless of what's futzing the modifiers on the roll. The only real issue I've found with high-level play is how it fits into worldbuilding. It's probably just me for demanding internal consistency and preferring a veneer of historical reasonableness/low fantasy, but having a campaign setting that expects to go all the way from level 1 to 20 feels like trying to justify The Witcher and He-Man drinking at the same bar. HOWEVER: my DM started the precedent that once you start reaching the end of Tier 2 you _deliberately shift genre_ and move from the low-fantasy, mundane Material Plane to the high-fantasy, extraordinary, Other Planes (note 'other', not 'outer': our game setting had a different cosmology than most published settings). Once you reach the pinnacle of achievement in the lands (reach level 11-12), you get an invitation from Elsewhere to continue your adventures in the planes beyond, preserving the balance of power in the low-tier setting but also offering up a new experience. Very much a D&D version of moving from the Minor Leagues to the Majors. Of course, most of our campaigns either never get that far, or start there at the outset, so characters making the transition are actually pretty rare.
The game is really fun. It deals with folklore monsters and deals with mysteries. The Kickstarter is for the Britain and Ireland book but one of the levels has all the books. Definitely give it a look if you're interested.
Great video. My main campaign is on a break after hitting 20. But we are going to play for 5 more levels or so. I think I'm ready to see the world burn.
A few things I've noticed at high level: The action economy still limits PCs. Lean into it for challenges. Time pressure and environmental challenges can really help , too, and can push PCs out of their usually dominant strategies. These work even at lower levels but they're a great way to keep challenge up for high level characters without just adding yet another bigger, badder threat. "It is Midnight and you have until the cock's first crow to prevent some catastrophe...." Threats become very unpredictable and CR math, never all that great to start with, really breaks down. There are things that one party would totally wipe and another party would wipe out on. High level undead are a good example. A party with a cleric and paladin would will frequently crush that while a party missing those characters will often have markedly harder challenges. A beholder going against a party of martials is nasty but nowhere near as bad as a party of all casters, who can have many of their abilities shut down by the Antimagic beam. A party that's all weak against Int saves is going to be in for a world of hurt if they run into Intellect Devourers. You really need to know your party and plan accordingly. Watch out for some potentially broken spells. Mass Suggestion is a good example. It's very much open for potential abuse and it's not a concentration spell (whoops, WotC!). Plane hopping can be a really cool way to get out of "save the world" tropes. Have the world saving be high Tier 2/low Tier 3 and give the PCs a reason to leave the Prime they have outgrown. (This might be a good way to start a high level campaign, actually.) There can be plenty of really nasty things that even high tier PCs can't take lightly... weird Astral plane monsters, hordes of fiends, the Sultan of the Efreet, etc. Sure, you may be nasty, but even so need to step lightly in the City of Brass. Apotheoisis of some sort may be a cool end goal. World of Greyhawk had the "hero-dieties" such as Murlynd, Heward, Kelanen, etc. (Yes, many magic items were named after them.) I think a number were high level PCs who retired; certainly that's the implication of their origin, if not their actual origin. Many of the Circle of Eight were originally PCs as well.
The simplest answer is that the style of campaign needs to change with each tier. Tier 1: Bandit hunting, minor dungeon delves, and local issues. Tier 2: Large scale dungeon delves, international exploration, and base building. Tier 3: Nation building, and King making. Tier 4: World domination, and god killing. Start out introducing the PCs to whatever setting the campaign sits in, and then by the time you're PCs are leveled in the teens they should be setting the pace and deciding how they are going to shape the world. By the high teens they're shaping their own corners of the multiverse.
I find that tiers like that only work in theory. In reality the cleric's player just wants to use Divine Intervention, but doesn't want the responsibility of dominating a world or killing a god. And most players have character fatigue long before they level a character up high enough to go from hunting bandits to being crowned.
I think it's a little narrow to only think in terms of bigger. Consider thinking in the inverse on occasion: go smaller. You'd be surprised how effective it can be. Like Jim said, there are only so many gods to kill and you can only save the universe so many times, especially before it gets old.
@@TheDSasterX That's something of a misnomer. "Bigger" is not the primary focus. If it was then D&D campaigns would be structured like Skyrim with thePCs fighting random groups of bandits at every tier and the only difference being the tier 1 bandits wearing fur loin cloths and the tier 4 bandits wearing daedric armor. By the time a party hits level 10 they should have already established themselves in one or more regions of the campaign world and set up a base/power center. After level 10 the PCs need to take an active role in what adventures they choose to go on. Think of it this way. The DM spends 5 to 10 levels introducing the party to the campaign world. When they hit level 10 or so and the published adventure is over it is then the DM's turn to sit back and ask the PCs what happens next. Will they go back to that piss-ant town and brutally murder the guard who was snippy to them at level 1? Will they rule the big bad's empire after killing him and all his lieutenants? Will they found an academy or mercenary company and shape regional politics to their liking? Will the wizard spend all his time sitting in the dark corner of random bars giving quests out to tier 1 adventurers who catch his eye? And once they choose to do one or more of these things it is up to the DM to sift through the factions left in the campaign and throw the ones most likely to interfere in the way of the PCs. What they actually choose to do doesn't matter. What matters is high level play is player driven play. The DM spent the low level playtime setting up the board, and then there's a hand off. The PCs decide where they're going and the DM becomes the referee.
#5 is so true, ppl forget that very few level 20 characters would even put a dent in a proper army before being overwhelmed. Sure they have 200hp...but that army has thousands of soldiers maybe even 10s of thousands...they don't all need to hit to take you out in one round and fireball ain't that good. You can still challenge characters without having them fight gods.
LMFAO That Mitchell and Webb look bit! When I DM in person I've always said that's how my hands are during combat. CRACK CRUNCH *arms flail wildly* "You see your mace cleave through the orc's armor into his bone"
Sacrifices for the Algorithm gods! My biggest hurdle to DMing was that my players wanted me to spoon feed them the game and lacked almost all initiative. No matter what level of play we did. I talked to them about it and they just shrugged it sucked because I had no one else to play in person DnD with.
To iterate on point number two, where the players get better, I think a piece of high level play that one-shots don't illustrate is a DEEP familiarity with the world. By the time you've reached 17th level, even if you ran a breakneck-pace from level 10 to level 17, the players will know enough about the setting and the places in it to have opinions about what to do. Part of why it's legitimately hard to manage high level players is there are WALKING LEGENDS shaping the world, meaning everything on your world is reacting to the players, as opposed to a few factions. Quests at this tier should be much more character driven, because nobody gets to 17th level without forming some opinions on the world and how they want to use their power.
Frankly the problem with high level 5e isn’t that the terrasque doesn’t do damage, or that the DM can’t think of epic adventures, it’s because the DM has to invent all the variety and novelty to challenge the PCs because the monsters have hardly any special abilities and there are so few resources to draw on.
So who wants to come up with lore about why Jim is in this locked room by himself. I'll start Jim is being held captive in a giant library by an evil lich to produce content for his enjoyment.
Yeah I think this is important, but I have a bit of an issue. One player I have really can’t take character death and I just don’t want to upset them in that way. Granted I still won’t stay my hand, but how should I handle this if it comes up. They are my friend and I hate seeing them upset but I also don’t want to like try to de attach them from relating or enjoying their character. Like we had a Halloween one shot, I explicitly let the whole group know that death would be an easy thing to fall into and it happened to nearly the whole party. When their character died they removed themselves and we laugh now but they were very upset. Now we are playing a dark (maybe a bit shy of Grimm dark) fantasy game and I don’t know what to do if it comes up again. I would let them make a new character, but I’m at a lose about how I should approach the issue.
Here's a question that might help clarify things: what would you do if you had a player who was going to get really upset about something else that's more commonly accepted as offensive? You'd find a way to make it work if you wanted to include that person, right? Some people get really upset when their characters die. It may be worth asking this person about it in order to understand it more, but ultimately, if you want to keep playing with them and having fun, it sounds like your table would do best by accepting that this is a thing that will not happen to their character. If everything else is hunky dory about how the group is working together, giving them the assurance that they can play in a way that makes them comfortable is necessary, even if it means breaking immersion a bit or bending the rules. Get clear on this person's boundaries and respect them. People have all kinds of things that get to them.
Fith edition was made to be easier, 3rd edition was a nightmare so 5th edition was HEAVILY simplified. It's not good, it's not bad it just is. I grew up around my parents 3rd edition games, and I now DM 5th. I've realised that 5th edition is meant to be easy, it's meant to be fantasy, as opposed to like G.U.R.P.S. which is made to be realistic. Realism is complicated, therefore realism based games are complex. You can put a lot of effort and realism into a simplistic game, that's simple, but it's much harder to simplify a complex game. (Just my opinion, not objective fact)
This is lite elitistic grandstanding but being nice about it. No, tier 4 is not balanced nor something to recommend. It is good for climactic endings for a long campaign that was good in tier 1-3. It is also great for oneshots. Tier 4 takes a lot more prep because of the way it opens up the entirety of the world for the players. They can literally teleport across the world and then fly to the top of a castle while casting divination spells in all directions and asking the gods what is up and then wishing for crazy things to happen. That's what you can face as a DM in tier 4. Tier 1-2 is a relaxed and nice time in comparison, and I have just as much fun if not more because of being able to sleep inbetween sessions instead of plan.
All you said is exactly what makes it fun. You need to know your players a little and work WITH them to see where THEY want to lead the story. The story should be built by their intentions, actions and consequences. That's shared storytelling. In a way, it's almost easier because you're more reacting to them when you throw challenges customized to them, instead of trying to plan everything in advance and subconsciously wanting to ''lead'' them into your challenges. There should not be only 1 session Zero at the start of that kind of campaign, but several spread every few games to adjust to them. The real need for the DM is to know well his campaign setting to adapt easily and improvise with descriptions and scenarios. You just need to decide what are the most plausible consequences for their actions when they do something big, which generally creates drama and tension by itself by pissing off someone or something powerful or an entire organization or even country. If you know the interactions and bonds between the factions in your world, then reacting to PC intervention becomes easier.
Thank you for watching! Get Claim the Sky: www.montecookgames.com/claim-the-sky/ Support the show and get show audio, and 200+ episodes of bonus podcast: www.patreon.com/webdm
Great content as usual and thank you Jim for keeping this going even without Pruitt here I wish you both the best now and going forward.
So if the setting is not sacred, and the players are also not sacred. The villain must be the most important thing. It and snacks of course.
Been waiting for this kind of video for a long time. High-level D&D and Pathfinder is really hard to balance for a party of any size. I often run a one-on-one game for my wife with her as the only player, and she prefers high-level D&D / Pathfinder. Let me tell ya, it’s HARD. Thanks for this! Brings up some new perspective.
Hope it helps!
I've been running a campaign for my daughter for the last seven years and she really likes the high level content too. I created around two dozen classes so that we could take 5e to fiftieth level. 21-30 are immortals trying to amp up their power. 31-40 are angels, gods, really powerful dragons, and a special class of wizard which get political and start to rule entire planets. 41-50 are cosmic powers like, Death, Justice, Infinity, Eternity, etc, which have agendas like the sacred timeline or protecting mortals from the war between heaven and hell. When I categorize the adventure types by those level categories, it really helps. Also, sometimes she plays new characters in her capital city and gets to experience what her city looks like from a low level perspective. Basically combining something new with recycled past content. Having her low level character interact with her high level character is fun too when there is a messenger between them.
High level AND party of one? Sheesh you are an absolute mad lad
@@Viper3220 It was definently crazy. Last Christmas she lead an army of undead monsters and flying ships and fought her way layer by layer to the lowest layer of hell to put it under "new management". It was awesome and I saved it all on video. :-)
I think this might be the best video I've heard on running high level D&D. Having recently finished my first campaign, in which the players reached level 20 (5e), I can see how each of these would improved the experience for me and the players. Thanks for sharing!
One thing my players and I found fun for concluding the campaign was me asking the players what they wanted their character's legacy to be. Each had ideas that made me excited for when we return to that setting, and just a little sad to say goodbye to those player characters.
Epilogues are awesome! Thanks for the compliment!
I love the background music and especially the transitions. It really meshes well with the more laid back vibe Jim gives being the only speaker. It's really amazing how quickly Web DM found its "new voice" if you will. I've seen countless content creators have to shift formats and it almost always takes multiple attempts and ends in varying degrees of sucess. Ya'll nailed it.
Thank you!
@@WebDM YES! You are doing a WONDERFUL JOB!! I will continue to miss Pruitt-- but you are absolutely killing it, keep it up, I still LOVE Web DM & get so much from watching your channel!!❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Tip 4 is super important. I DM almost all the time so I’ve never done tier 4 play as a player, but if I got that far and was unable to affect the world on a bigger scale, I’d be really upset. Those characters are *meant* to be world-shapers, they’re *meant* to fundamentally change the setting, and they deserve to
Agreed!!
Do they though? Let's look at Forgotten Realms for a moment. On the Sword Coast alone you have a dozen of mythical characters around at the same time. They can barely keep Waterdeep together. No one's heard of them on the other side of the continent. The setting you're playing in might be different, sure, but all setting I've encountered would realistically have people trying to subvert whatever your characters are doing once they become high level. Why would the world, all its gods, all its heroes just LET you dominate everything? Your characters are the big bads for someone else.
@@yaldabaoth2 Just because somebody "deserves" something doesn't mean they don't have to work for it. In this case, the pc's are powerful beings with the ability to have a major effect on the world around them. If the players want to change the world in massive ways and have the abilities that let them, then of course they'll try and use them. It'd be stupid for a dm to say "no you can't do that" when the players literally can. Where the game and story come in is npc's that try to stop the characters from doing whatever it is they're doing, point them in different directions, or otherwise mess with the characters' plans.
Of course not everything the players say goes, but it's pointless if they don't get to use any of their grand power for anything. Like Jim said, the setting is just as much the players' as it is the dm's, and it can be super cool when players get the chance to help shape it, especially with the characters they've come to know and love.
As a DM that has felt burnt out because of the high level campaign I'm running: I needed this. This has reinvigorated my excitement for my campaign. Thank you!
Pros of new content: I can listen to Jim Davis lofi all day long, shit is like my dad watching golf my midday naps have never been more restful.
Cons: I feel like having a costar to roll with makes it seem more organized and easier to follow.
Quality, as always.
Another tip for DMs:
Just like He-man, you have the power!
There is NOTHING the players can hit you with that you cannot overcome. But this isn't a call to beat them down; now is your chance to do something bonkers with little to no downside. For example, damage immunities are seen as an end point. Once you get fire immunity, fire holds no fear or wonder for you. That need not be the case. The game and its lore alone fly in the face of it. The Elemental Plane of Fire is home to the Sultan of the City of Brass. He and Kossuth, the non-evil god of fire, can both produce flame that is so profound that even creature that are immune to fire and native to the plane take FULL DAMAGE from their fire.
Another example is just to make a legendary exception. If a creature you bring to the table doesn't just simply have legendary actions but is legendary in its truest sense, that creature should be able to do at least one thing at tier four play that slaps down conventions and defies expectations. A CR 25 lich BBEG might be able to cast more than one leveled spell per turn, or an ancient dragon can be the size of a literal mountain (with its own relative gravity), and it can see into the present, past, or future as easily as a dark elf uses darkvision.
And that is just the beginning. Genius Loci, Soul Rot, puzzles on the scale of entire castles, time-loop traps, arcano-cyborg beholders, world wars, and so much more.
Game on.
Thank you so much for this video! I've run two full campaigns and am currently running a third, all of which have entered tier 4 play, and my play experience has absolutely not matched up with the vast majority of what people have been saying online. However, it HAS meshed very much with everything you said in this video! I was worried that there was something weird about my table/group, but just the reassurance from this video alone was worth the watch. There was some great advice too that I can't wait to put to use.
As a DM for going on for over 40 years it is so refreshing to hear from someone who isnt afraid of running high level games for crazily powerful characters.
Very good advice.
I would add
It's all about the characters not a dms preconceived plans and
The dice never lie.
Thanks again and happy holidays.
While I agree that a dm should never be too attached to their plans and allow the flow of the story to be organic with the party for the most of it. I've always hated the saying that it's all about the players because the DM is a player too imo. If I'm spending hours of my free time throughout the week preparing for a session or world building I'd like to have some fun too. That can be through things like seeing major story beats I planned come to fruition, seeing how my players deal with specific encounters or puzzles I've made etc
I DM high level D&D. I've had multiple long term high level campaigns at this point. Its been super fun. My first BBEG battle started with the players going in as flying triceratops to attack the BBEG. It was a massively fun time.
The main thing that has helped me for high level D&D, is feel free to make *deadly encounters*. Trust in your players ability to circumvent enemy stats and overcome the challenge. Also, give your BBEG a couple hundred more HP when prepping. Because paladin smites will do over 100 damage easy.
I wish you all the best and as a DM, make sure you check in with your players. High level play is all about communication and teamwork, DM included.
I came to this video expecting to find novel advice; instead I found a distillation of my DMing experiences.
Thanks for the honest insight. Cheers 🥂
I'm actually just wrapping up a campaign that's ending at level 17. My players just slayed a (heavily modified) Tarrasque. It was a serious challenge as a DM, but has been a goal of mine since I started running dnd to run at this level. The bug issue was combats became at lot less frequent as random encounters just weren't worth it anymore, but the ones we had were super epic and deadly.
Okay your topic selection is on point. I'm loving this new webdm chapter
Thank you!
@@WebDM No, thank you. My adventurers are still level 6 but the aim of the campaign is 20 and beyond so this is quite useful!
Really like the take on mindset you led on with. It's been my experience that a lot of people either don't know how to 'take their fun seriously,' or they don't trust the people around them enough to commit to that. Everyone knows the smartass at the table that names their character 'HulkSmash' and just won't change it because lols, the person that memes their way from scene to scene and won't put their phone down, and the friend that is irritated by someone else and they *could* choose to deal with it later...but takes every opportunity to jump into an argument regardless of the obvious un-chill vibes they are dropping on the night. They're at every table at one point or another...and of course there's (a lot) more.
These people never fail to dismantle what could be a powerful, cinematic experience and *ensure* it isn't.
That isn't to say that these antics aren't endearing in some ways, because they can be - and laughing until you are about to cry is a great thing but not every game session needs to be that. This is by far the thing that gets in the way of pencil and paper RPG gaming period, but comes to the fore at high levels.
Most players are looking for a dice to roll and a legendary beast to slay - they don't want to tell a story they just want to win and be told they are winning. You put a table full of dukes, thanes, and barons in front of them for critical peace and military negotiations that are aggressive, sharp-minded, and strategic...and they get bored. "Yeah I bitch slap him." "Yeah I take my sword out and swing." "Yeah I use a cantrip and squeeze grapefruit juice into his eyes." They don't have the mindset to meet the scene in front of them because they only thing they are committed to is being amused...and if they aren't being amused by someone else, they will be happy to use everyone's evening to supply themselves with entertainment.
I'm really appreciating these high level ones since my current campaign is going in that direction. I typically only do low level and maybe max out around 10 because I'm not a fan of the superheroes and like the dirty grimy gritty part of the low levels. So thanks for the advice because my experience is lacking lol
I've found by having a presence of high level threats early on that once they get there, they act less like superheroes and more like survivors.
The way I kept my level 20 game relatively grounded was by having the characters have to deal with organizational politics and logistics.
Oh the level 20 wizard with epic boons has 3 ninth level spell slots and can make simulacra. Well if you want an army with you the army needs to be paid, trained, fed, armed, supplied and led by someone who actually understand warfare on a strategic and theatre level and not just small unit tactics.
At this point for the group they started calling in favors from other groups and religious orders they helped over the campaign and the wizard spent a lot of time making money using simulacrum and wish to get funding while also using Spelljammer ships to hire outside help so that the players don’t crash the economy of the Sword Coast. Discussing the implications of economic inflation will make most people realize they are not all powerful if they have any care about what happens to the people in the setting.
Running Mad Mage right now and this level of play gets tougher and tougher. Good timing
This is hands down my favorite video you have done so far.
I love the clear, personal engagement and honest approach. It's applicable and direct input.
I also value the video because of running fairly long games personally that always tend to evolve into high level play and this video could not have said it better for any DM wanting to play in that direction.
Thank you
I'm proud to say that group's favorite campaign after a decade of gaming is a modified Rise of Tiamat campaign I ran, with personalized dungeons and stuff that slowly took them up to level 17 over the course of 2 years. I had always said I only liked the very lowest of levels, my players liked 3-8 but I liked 1-5. This has changed, at least partially. the later levels were the most fun of that campaign for everyone. I basically gave them Superman's world of cardboard speech, because I could make an ever-changing feywild dungeon spill into a ancient dragon ritual spill into a mindflayer hive with a brainstealer dragon. And people struggled, some died or had to be revived, and it was a BLAST. I could just throw my party COOL LOOT, and as long as I listened to my players and made sure to give them all moments to shine it was a wonderful. Especially since a lot of my stuff had some risk to the reward, massive AOEs can backfire for instance.
Essentially the best moments were a point where I said "ok you have 4 months before your army arrives, but due to teleportation circles you can get there within a week from near anywhere on this continent, how are you going to acquire power?" The elf found her people just in time to rescue them from mindflayers, the kalashtar led the party to an ancient temple dragged into the feywild to give restore her patron spirit's full power, the human dragged everyone to a party on a quest to get Amn on thier side...then abandoned it after they got the artifact and realized they didn't want AMN to have access to even minor temporal powers. But everywhere they went they had IMPACT. they set armies in motion after them, or gained the eye of a powerful demon or patron, or suddenly found themselves fleeing when they found the immesurable depths of what trouble the got themselves into with thier arrogance. but even when they lost, half the party wiped, or were cursed, or what have you...they were still amazed. Because they weren't sneaking around hoping a tiny tribe of bullywog harrassing a little backwater didn't notice them, they moved people, for better or for worse. That, to me, is what high level is about...As long as the players also realize that sometimes what they set into motion might be for the worse.
This video inspired me to bring back my campaign that had reached tier 4 and fizzled out due to my own nerves from running high level play. Now I got some fresh ideas and the content of the video helped revitalize the necessity to continually challenge myself as a game master. As always, thank you for your unending guidance and wisdom Mr. Davis.
Awesome! Have a great time!
Super happy for this video! I definitely think more people need to openly talk about high level DnD. Converse, share and compare with others so that it won't be this "scary thing" as well as help others who go to high tier. I definitely need to work on tip 6! Thanks again for the wonderful video.
One trick for keeping things interesting at every tier of play is introducing a mirror match up villain party. Think the Linear Guild from Order if the Stick.
How do you stat these nemesis characters?
1.Take the sidekick rules from Tasha's.
2. Give each "sidekick" stat block levels in sidekick classes equal to the PC they're supposed to mirror.
3. Then give them all the subclass features from any subclass you think would be funny to put against that PC's chosen subclass. It can be the opposite thematic class like pitting life cleric vs death cleric. Or the same class. Life vs life, and anything in between. Hell, pitting a battlemaster fighter against a berserker barbarian can be fun.
4. Give the nemesis party whatever bases, vehicles, and political powers they need to constantly show up and pester the PCs. The Acquisitions Incorporated book is great for this.
That'll work well once, maybe twice, but aside from divine GM intervention, one party is just going to win in an open confrontation. It's not like Pokemon's Gary who you encounter over and over and you both just keep leveling. If you leash your players or the nemesis party and prevent them from properly interacting, it'll get either toothless, annoying, or both.
That's why the leader of the nemesis party is a caster with 3 or 4 escape spells and the half the party the PCs kill gets replaced with revolving door minions.
Then a coup happens off camera and the PCs start asking what happened to that one guy when he stops showing up.
Realistically though, it's not that hard to give invulnerability to a nemesis party. Strixhaven just came out. If your campaign is set there or in any other sort of adventuring academy the party will have class rivals who they keep butting heads with and aren't allowed to outright kill.
Same if your party is employed by a guild or mercenary company that has multiple teams. Every time the PCs go to the bounty board to look for work have them bump into the prick from the other team and have him dole out sarcastic remarks on the jobs they pick.
Then stage a final battle with the nemesis party in which the leaders of the guild or academy are killed and the PCs are left in charge of day to day running of the organization. And that running of a globe spanning organization is tier 3 and 4 play.
I love order of the stick.
Started doing prep today for a Gith Knight one-shot coming up this weekend. I wanted to go all in. Red Dragons, planeshift, elder brain. The whole deal. Definitely a lot to manage.
Just saw this come up on my feed. It was meant to be. Keep up the great work!
This is why I love Web dm you guys seem to know what's up and are at least trying to address it with tips and ideas keep it up 👍
I completely agree with #5. If the players can get from tier 1 to 4 in the matter if months, so can so many others. In my campaigns, magic is more normalized
"Tip number two!" LOL, you're awesome
Solid advice Jim! The Tier 4 hype is nonsense. DMs have to remember that character abilities scale up at higher levels but so do their adversaries. Give a bad guy a boat load of feats that suits the challenge you want to create. The NPC enemies do not and should not progress through levels like character do. If you want to challenge the characters, throw an enemy at them that crits on a natural 15. That’s a 25% chance to crit on each attack. Give them multiple attacks, legendary actions or regeneration. I’m breaking the rules for my upcoming campaign where characters will start at 16 level. The rule I am breaking is for some enemies, they will remain invisible even when they attack. You can get creative and really challenge them. Parties live for that and putting them on edge makes for memorable game play. One last thing - throw a hundred enemies at them that are low level and maybe have a couple hit points each. They’ll have a blast totally dominating, then after chewing up some of their resources, have a reasonably difficult boss emerge. That’ll get them shaking in their boots
The new solo format is really working for me :) obviously miss Pruitt, but I love listening to Jim talk!
This is one of the things that always gets me in DND and in Pathfinder. In the 20 years I've been playing these games I always run across the forums and boards and chat rooms that people will do what I call Whiteboard Tabletop. Where they throw up everything in the rule books up on a white board and talk about how broken the mechanics are and how players can one shot this or subvert that or do this or can do that. How they power level these characters with specific equipment and specific magical items and specific everything.
But then in actual play, at the table, all this whiteboarding and planning they do is barely 1% of what happens ever in the state of play. Yea your wizard might have known a spell to instantly destroy the world, but since youve been telling your DM about it for weeks, the DM just adds in something to stop it with the roll of a die. Yea your CoDzilla or Gish can buff up with 90 buffs before a dungeon, but your DM brings up time passing as you are doing stuff that doesn't involve combat and soon you are out of time. Or you get ambushed before you can do your buff chance
All of these problems they bring up as High level of play and what the players can do really rarely ever are an issue in the game itself. Especially with a group of players you can trust and work well with
Just what I needed, my week has been terrible! Gotta get that dose of D&D.
Hope your week turns around!
You guys should make a WebDM video on running a game as a Play-by-Post. All the different advantages and disadvantages that come with it.
Our group started at 1st level , four players have attained up to level 18th . It’s D&D 5E , with Homebrew added to it. Having a load of fun !
Slainte
good discussion. I like the new format. background music is nice too. I've run tier 4 in 5e before and it's difficult to change the mindset, but, it does take a different approach to adventure design. Best bit of advice was to be ready to destroy your world. before I started my first 1-20 game in a homebrew world, it was a world I had been designing for nearly 15 years. in one year of game play, it was destroyed...and it was glorious.
Congratulations, this a big improvement from the camera-shy previous episode! And one of the best content-wise!
The bear totem barbarian can be a challenge with resistance to all by psychic damage. But it's fun when you can turn them against the party.
Skipped the ad, because I already bought it, from an ad in a prior video. Good shit.
With my homebrew campaign I’m running, I’m actually adjusting as I go for the level they are at, with the plan of going to 20 and the formula I found isn’t always in combat , it’s allowing their decisions and interactions to make an impact (good or bad) and that won’t ever change which makes DnD what it is. That being said they’re level 6 right now so we’ll see lol
I've been in a campaign that has been running for over three years now. We started at level one and we are now at level nineteen. My mountain dwarf fighter character just found the Axe of the Dwarvish Lords. We are planning on taking the campaign to Epic levels.
Really loving all the newer content. Can’t wait to read Weird Wastelands. 💪
On a theoretical level I understand what you mean about "not being a fan of the PCs" in regards to fairness and stakes, but in practice I struggle with that because I find it difficult to figure out how to make the campaign personally tailored to the players if the characters have the potential to change often. When I'm coming up with the outline of the campaign's plot and when I'm planning for the smaller arcs of individual adventures I frequently mine the characters' backstories for NPCs or themes. If a PC was a driving factor in a big adventure, I'm worried that that thread would just be dropped and then I have to scramble and struggle with coming up with a bunch of new stuff and try to bring this new character in, and it sounds really daunting.
I know that if I just dropped this idea of a cohesive "story" for the campaign that would solve my problem, but I REALLY want to do it this way because my favorite campaign I ever played in was super personalized to the characters playing in it and I want to create a similar feeling for this group. I'm just intimidated by the amount of work I'd have to do in order to improvise the story all the time AND keep it unique and personal. Is there ANYTHING anyone can think of that would make this more balanced without just scrapping the feeling of personalization I'm going for?
Omg. A FANTASTIC video. Thank you so much!! Feeling INSPIRED!!!!
I'm missing Pruitt, but you're doing great, Jim! Thanks for the video :)
This HP change keeps lower levels alive long enough to develop a character and keeps a high level on their toes and paying attention !
This is a system I developed in 1987 , it's based of of size race constitution and more importantly keeping the game interesting as ones character increases in levels . First a race needs to be determined for a character this will put the hit points in a size range small medium large there is also extra large but that's more for creatures than characters .
Small being 0-3' Medium 3'- 8' Large 8'-18' and ExLarge 18'+
Hit points being based off of a 1d12 per ft with -1hp per dice for S. a +1hp per dice L. and a +2hp per dice for ExL. M. receives no penalty or bonus.
Racial Adjustment
Human no adjustment, Halfling a -1per hp dice , Half Elf -1-2per hp dice , Elf -1-3per hp dice , Gnomes no adjustment this is based off of their hardiness off setting their small stature this brings us to Dwarves +1-6per hp dice and half orcs +1-2per hp dice adjustment . Now one will say well this is fine and dandy for characters but what about creatures will this is where your experience and skills of a DM comes into play , there's a reason people are joining you for a game they trust your expertise and honesty to make appropriate calls on adjustments in figuring HP's and damage for example a battalion of archers that's a 1000 men raining a 1000 arrows down on a dragon isn't going to do anything even though one arrow could kill a human . So don't be lazy this system will give your game a much more realistic feel so take the time to figure HP's for creatures at first this will be time consuming but once your used to it it will be more like second nature a quick judgement on size and hardiness of the creature and boom you'll know an appropriate number.
So in figuring a S. character 1d6+or-, M no more than 1d8+or-, L no more than 1d10+or-, ExL no more than 2d20+or- such creatures as dragons
HP Adjustment for Strength
3-7 strength -1hp per point below an 8
8-14 strength no adjustment
15-18/50 +1 HP per point over 14 no additional until a score of 18/51 - 18/99 an additional+1 and a score of 18/00 +2
HP Adjustment for Constitution
3-7 -1per point under a score of 8
8-14 no adjustment
15-18 +2 HP per point over the score of 14 .
HP Adjustment Based off of Sex
Males none females - 1d6 but +1d6 for Charisma .
Now what makes this so different and challenging is that first your players actually have the ability to make it past 1st level because they start off with substantial HP's secondly it's based of of something that actually makes sense in the game and finally once a character hits 6th level he/she better be using their witt's because your HP's don't adjust. Less the DM has adjusted them permanently for some reason. So there ain't no having 13th level fighter having a 130+ HP's !
Submitted for your consideration please let me know your thoughts I would love a critique. Speaking of a critique I obviously jumped the gun with your system ! Yes it's important to keep the game moving and again this is where the DM's expertise comes into play I whole heartily agree with the none important creatures the ones there as filler , to push the campaign in a certain direction and such .
healthy and seeing you well, enjoyed the video Jim and Co 🖤
This is an awesome video on this topic. I see so much negativity around high-level play that as someone who’s never had the opportunity to participate in it I’ve been kind of put off it in the past, so it’s reassuring to see a more positive but still helpful discussion on it.
I’m running my first game at the moment (played for a few years before this) and this is really helpful. The players are a long way off this level of play and it’s possible they’ll want to move on to new characters before then, but I want to be prepared for the day it happens 😂
It’s probably a bit nebulous as there’s so many areas to look at, but I’d love to see a video with your advice on how to self-evaluate our DM skills and then work on improving them. Things like what to look out for, what kinds of resources would be helpful for improving in each area, etc.
Tier 4 is the best tier both as player and Dm. it is when the stakes can be as high or little as you like, so much freedom and opportunity to be creative and in a world, you have likely spent months/years adding to. Richer and more fun in literally every way.
Was really enjoying the solo videos, hope y'all return to youtube at some point.
About to finish CoS with level 11 PCs...This was inspiration that I can continue their story at the higher levels!
I'm pleasantly suprised by how well Webdm has adapted in our new post Pruitt (pp) era. Rock on Jim Davis
Where's Pruitt?
Great advice. Hitting tier three soon and I was like maybe it’s time to stop. Dungeon craft and rune hammer often say that high level d&d sucks. But this inspired me. If we can go the distance, I’m down! I’ve never DM’d high level d&d.
Great video!
I do not want people to be scared of figure out 4th tier.
This really should be part of normal dnd, 4th is a true super hero and Leader of nations game, take advantage of that.
Thanks for this. Just in time for my party to hit level 30 in my homebrew lmfao. We're two years in, and about to do the final questline if act 2, which prompts act 3, the war arc, where shit is about to get even crazier than it's been. My party now consists of 4 avatars of different gods, so balancing is getting a little out of whack. We still have another several months, to a year to go, and it gets harder every week to balance this shit lol. That being said I'm doing very good considering. Most DMs don't have a clue how to run high level campaigns, and just start freaking out and throwing random shit in the mix. I've learned how to properly challenge my players in more indirect ways. Combat is still smooth and fun, the enemies just die much quicker now.
I need highly edited clips of every Jim Drink.
Noted
DMs, please give RP options to encounters that can be resolved by talking. Like, tiers 1-3 PCs spend a lot of time in combat, navigating traps, solving puzzles, etc because they're not terribly important and bad guys have no reason to listen to them. By tier 4 a PC is known by name in places near and far and is recognizable in the region they're adventuring in. Unless the bad guy is a god or a lich they know who the PC is and may hesitate to have a go at them. Of course RP encounters are the perfect setup for traps and misdirection but honestly I love the idea that some Renfield-type NPC is scared of the PCs and even though he's got a scary master the master isn't there at the moment and the PCs are. 👀 I have a 20th level PC that I use in Adventurer's League games and she's an absolute terror to her enemies. Y'Laina is a Dreadlord in the Zhentarim and a minor noble in Mulmaster...and a Cleric of Bane. No sane person who lives on the Material Plane wants someone like that mad at them. 😂
Stinger!!!
Also, I think Jim might have joined the Tracksuit Mafia
For me the hardest part of high level is surviving the wait between turns as the (anybody but our wonderful Champion Fighter player) changes their decision and has to re-evaluate the impact that their new choice of spell (or spell equivalent) has on the battlefield. It's exhausting how long turns take. ZzzzZzz
I personally don't find it hard to challenge my players. I can always make a bigger fish*.
I have a pretty good band of people I play with, they don't tend to run rampant when they get a little bit of power (besides forgetting what Thunderstep does and casting it on the doorstep of the inn). But my experience at high level is that it sways between the heroes feeling god-like outside of combat, and then getting swept by the raw brutality of the encounter I prepared.
They noted that this is the same as they felt at levels 1-2. The published game material has convinced my players that from level 1 they are special and better than all the NPCs, but then when they hit combat even little kobolds are doing as much as they are. Which causes dissonance with them about how "cool" their characters are. Then the same thing happened at high levels, and they felt like a difference of 14 levels hadn't changed the feeling of how the characters play, unless it's that the dissonance gap is even bigger.
*My 16th level players once violated an agreement with Pazuzu while in the Abyss, and I dropped enough Aaracokra and vrocks, as well as Pazuzu itself, on them that they literally aborted their mission and fled back to Sigil.
I love this format Jim!
Ahhh, 3.x memories of high level play...
Player (before game): You aren't challenging us enough.
Me (during game): The Aboleth Savant casts prismatic wall behind you.
Player: Okay
Me (next round): Then he casts telekinesis at you, towards the wall.
Player: Uhhhh...
Me: You said I wan't challenging you enough. Roll 8 saving throws.
Me: Okay, this entire city is underwater, so it won't burn like the last four.
Another Player: Oh, really.
Me: Yes, it's a challenge.
That player (later): Didn't you give me that Cold Fire. It will burn in water, won't it?
Me: Dammit! Yes. Okay, you set fire to it.
That Player: Sweet!
Me: Okay, you are attacked by a Flesh Colossus.
Third Player (my gf at the time): I can turn into a Colossal creature
Me: Uhhh, yes you can.
Third Player: I turn into a Colossal Squid. And I grapple it.
Me (Several Dice rolls later): Sigh, you grapple it successfully.
Third Player: I drag it down into the abyss and feed it fish down there.
Me: Sigh.
I had a thought involving the Mercer effect. Its interesting how many toxic individuals like to say that Matt is just not good at DMing because of their experience of the Mercer effect, yet it almost seems factual that he is a great DM, specifically in high level play, considering the many ending arcs of Vox Machina's campaign, and simply how engaged and satisfied the players seemed to be with it.
I just finished running a few-year campaign through 20th level, ending in a satisfying Zariel boss fight
Love a Mitchell amd web reference
One of the things I've really liked about 5th edition is how the simple advantage/disadvantage system remains rock solid at _any_ level, regardless of what's futzing the modifiers on the roll.
The only real issue I've found with high-level play is how it fits into worldbuilding. It's probably just me for demanding internal consistency and preferring a veneer of historical reasonableness/low fantasy, but having a campaign setting that expects to go all the way from level 1 to 20 feels like trying to justify The Witcher and He-Man drinking at the same bar.
HOWEVER: my DM started the precedent that once you start reaching the end of Tier 2 you _deliberately shift genre_ and move from the low-fantasy, mundane Material Plane to the high-fantasy, extraordinary, Other Planes (note 'other', not 'outer': our game setting had a different cosmology than most published settings). Once you reach the pinnacle of achievement in the lands (reach level 11-12), you get an invitation from Elsewhere to continue your adventures in the planes beyond, preserving the balance of power in the low-tier setting but also offering up a new experience. Very much a D&D version of moving from the Minor Leagues to the Majors.
Of course, most of our campaigns either never get that far, or start there at the outset, so characters making the transition are actually pretty rare.
Yo I love story time to start the episodes now keep up the good work man
Thanks!
Y'all did a video a while back on different TTRPGs y'all'd played. Since y'all liked Symbaroum I was wondering if y'all had played Vaesen?
We haven't but we're looking at the new KS and are intrigued!
The game is really fun. It deals with folklore monsters and deals with mysteries. The Kickstarter is for the Britain and Ireland book but one of the levels has all the books. Definitely give it a look if you're interested.
Wisdom Incarnate.
Thank you Jim and Friends!
Great video. My main campaign is on a break after hitting 20. But we are going to play for 5 more levels or so. I think I'm ready to see the world burn.
A few things I've noticed at high level:
The action economy still limits PCs. Lean into it for challenges. Time pressure and environmental challenges can really help , too, and can push PCs out of their usually dominant strategies. These work even at lower levels but they're a great way to keep challenge up for high level characters without just adding yet another bigger, badder threat. "It is Midnight and you have until the cock's first crow to prevent some catastrophe...."
Threats become very unpredictable and CR math, never all that great to start with, really breaks down. There are things that one party would totally wipe and another party would wipe out on. High level undead are a good example. A party with a cleric and paladin would will frequently crush that while a party missing those characters will often have markedly harder challenges. A beholder going against a party of martials is nasty but nowhere near as bad as a party of all casters, who can have many of their abilities shut down by the Antimagic beam. A party that's all weak against Int saves is going to be in for a world of hurt if they run into Intellect Devourers. You really need to know your party and plan accordingly.
Watch out for some potentially broken spells. Mass Suggestion is a good example. It's very much open for potential abuse and it's not a concentration spell (whoops, WotC!).
Plane hopping can be a really cool way to get out of "save the world" tropes. Have the world saving be high Tier 2/low Tier 3 and give the PCs a reason to leave the Prime they have outgrown. (This might be a good way to start a high level campaign, actually.) There can be plenty of really nasty things that even high tier PCs can't take lightly... weird Astral plane monsters, hordes of fiends, the Sultan of the Efreet, etc. Sure, you may be nasty, but even so need to step lightly in the City of Brass.
Apotheoisis of some sort may be a cool end goal. World of Greyhawk had the "hero-dieties" such as Murlynd, Heward, Kelanen, etc. (Yes, many magic items were named after them.) I think a number were high level PCs who retired; certainly that's the implication of their origin, if not their actual origin. Many of the Circle of Eight were originally PCs as well.
Excellent, inspiring, great brain fuel video.
The simplest answer is that the style of campaign needs to change with each tier.
Tier 1: Bandit hunting, minor dungeon delves, and local issues.
Tier 2: Large scale dungeon delves, international exploration, and base building.
Tier 3: Nation building, and King making.
Tier 4: World domination, and god killing.
Start out introducing the PCs to whatever setting the campaign sits in, and then by the time you're PCs are leveled in the teens they should be setting the pace and deciding how they are going to shape the world. By the high teens they're shaping their own corners of the multiverse.
I find that tiers like that only work in theory.
In reality the cleric's player just wants to use Divine Intervention, but doesn't want the responsibility of dominating a world or killing a god.
And most players have character fatigue long before they level a character up high enough to go from hunting bandits to being crowned.
I think it's a little narrow to only think in terms of bigger. Consider thinking in the inverse on occasion: go smaller. You'd be surprised how effective it can be. Like Jim said, there are only so many gods to kill and you can only save the universe so many times, especially before it gets old.
@@TheDSasterX That's something of a misnomer. "Bigger" is not the primary focus. If it was then D&D campaigns would be structured like Skyrim with thePCs fighting random groups of bandits at every tier and the only difference being the tier 1 bandits wearing fur loin cloths and the tier 4 bandits wearing daedric armor.
By the time a party hits level 10 they should have already established themselves in one or more regions of the campaign world and set up a base/power center. After level 10 the PCs need to take an active role in what adventures they choose to go on.
Think of it this way. The DM spends 5 to 10 levels introducing the party to the campaign world. When they hit level 10 or so and the published adventure is over it is then the DM's turn to sit back and ask the PCs what happens next.
Will they go back to that piss-ant town and brutally murder the guard who was snippy to them at level 1?
Will they rule the big bad's empire after killing him and all his lieutenants?
Will they found an academy or mercenary company and shape regional politics to their liking?
Will the wizard spend all his time sitting in the dark corner of random bars giving quests out to tier 1 adventurers who catch his eye?
And once they choose to do one or more of these things it is up to the DM to sift through the factions left in the campaign and throw the ones most likely to interfere in the way of the PCs.
What they actually choose to do doesn't matter. What matters is high level play is player driven play. The DM spent the low level playtime setting up the board, and then there's a hand off. The PCs decide where they're going and the DM becomes the referee.
To not be a fan of the characters is something i reallyyy gotta learn
Higher level dnd isn't about stuffing a dragon or a beholder in every room, its more like it becomes about traps and puzzles more than anything
#5 is so true, ppl forget that very few level 20 characters would even put a dent in a proper army before being overwhelmed. Sure they have 200hp...but that army has thousands of soldiers maybe even 10s of thousands...they don't all need to hit to take you out in one round and fireball ain't that good.
You can still challenge characters without having them fight gods.
Dude! Thanks for telling me to up my game with no published support.
Amazing video very helpful
I might like more detail on that Tip # 7 there. "Git gud, son," is a tip, I get it, but any advice other than "practice?"
LMFAO That Mitchell and Webb look bit! When I DM in person I've always said that's how my hands are during combat. CRACK CRUNCH *arms flail wildly* "You see your mace cleave through the orc's armor into his bone"
Sacrifices for the Algorithm gods!
My biggest hurdle to DMing was that my players wanted me to spoon feed them the game and lacked almost all initiative. No matter what level of play we did. I talked to them about it and they just shrugged it sucked because I had no one else to play in person DnD with.
To iterate on point number two, where the players get better, I think a piece of high level play that one-shots don't illustrate is a DEEP familiarity with the world. By the time you've reached 17th level, even if you ran a breakneck-pace from level 10 to level 17, the players will know enough about the setting and the places in it to have opinions about what to do.
Part of why it's legitimately hard to manage high level players is there are WALKING LEGENDS shaping the world, meaning everything on your world is reacting to the players, as opposed to a few factions.
Quests at this tier should be much more character driven, because nobody gets to 17th level without forming some opinions on the world and how they want to use their power.
Engage in your world fully determined to kill it and it will be alive; wish to preserve it in the campaign and you will surely meet it's destruction
Godbound+exalted rpg and superhero genre
Great video!! :)
Frankly the problem with high level 5e isn’t that the terrasque doesn’t do damage, or that the DM can’t think of epic adventures, it’s because the DM has to invent all the variety and novelty to challenge the PCs because the monsters have hardly any special abilities and there are so few resources to draw on.
Regarding running a smooth game, what are your experiences with 4th Edition?
So who wants to come up with lore about why Jim is in this locked room by himself.
I'll start
Jim is being held captive in a giant library by an evil lich to produce content for his enjoyment.
How's Pruit's stache' coming along?
I haven’t been super up to date on everything but where is Pruit. (I hope I spelled that right)
Great video
love the comment about the rule of cool hey i love it but there are limits
Ok, but how do you level up your DM skills?
This vid was awesome xDD
Yeah I think this is important, but I have a bit of an issue. One player I have really can’t take character death and I just don’t want to upset them in that way. Granted I still won’t stay my hand, but how should I handle this if it comes up. They are my friend and I hate seeing them upset but I also don’t want to like try to de attach them from relating or enjoying their character. Like we had a Halloween one shot, I explicitly let the whole group know that death would be an easy thing to fall into and it happened to nearly the whole party. When their character died they removed themselves and we laugh now but they were very upset. Now we are playing a dark (maybe a bit shy of Grimm dark) fantasy game and I don’t know what to do if it comes up again. I would let them make a new character, but I’m at a lose about how I should approach the issue.
Here's a question that might help clarify things: what would you do if you had a player who was going to get really upset about something else that's more commonly accepted as offensive? You'd find a way to make it work if you wanted to include that person, right? Some people get really upset when their characters die. It may be worth asking this person about it in order to understand it more, but ultimately, if you want to keep playing with them and having fun, it sounds like your table would do best by accepting that this is a thing that will not happen to their character. If everything else is hunky dory about how the group is working together, giving them the assurance that they can play in a way that makes them comfortable is necessary, even if it means breaking immersion a bit or bending the rules. Get clear on this person's boundaries and respect them. People have all kinds of things that get to them.
Ya… I have noticed the solo content recently… what happened to Pruitt?
Jim, you're getting some distinguish distinguishment in your beard!
After running Anima: Beyond Fantasy high level dnd is a cakewalk. Love anima but by level 3 you have a team of Saitamas
I think these videos would be better if he had another co-lead to replace the last guy
Fith edition was made to be easier, 3rd edition was a nightmare so 5th edition was HEAVILY simplified. It's not good, it's not bad it just is. I grew up around my parents 3rd edition games, and I now DM 5th. I've realised that 5th edition is meant to be easy, it's meant to be fantasy, as opposed to like G.U.R.P.S. which is made to be realistic. Realism is complicated, therefore realism based games are complex. You can put a lot of effort and realism into a simplistic game, that's simple, but it's much harder to simplify a complex game. (Just my opinion, not objective fact)
Level 7: Skill issue
What is with the slurping, dude...
Where’d the other guy go?
This is lite elitistic grandstanding but being nice about it.
No, tier 4 is not balanced nor something to recommend. It is good for climactic endings for a long campaign that was good in tier 1-3. It is also great for oneshots. Tier 4 takes a lot more prep because of the way it opens up the entirety of the world for the players. They can literally teleport across the world and then fly to the top of a castle while casting divination spells in all directions and asking the gods what is up and then wishing for crazy things to happen. That's what you can face as a DM in tier 4. Tier 1-2 is a relaxed and nice time in comparison, and I have just as much fun if not more because of being able to sleep inbetween sessions instead of plan.
All you said is exactly what makes it fun. You need to know your players a little and work WITH them to see where THEY want to lead the story. The story should be built by their intentions, actions and consequences. That's shared storytelling. In a way, it's almost easier because you're more reacting to them when you throw challenges customized to them, instead of trying to plan everything in advance and subconsciously wanting to ''lead'' them into your challenges. There should not be only 1 session Zero at the start of that kind of campaign, but several spread every few games to adjust to them. The real need for the DM is to know well his campaign setting to adapt easily and improvise with descriptions and scenarios. You just need to decide what are the most plausible consequences for their actions when they do something big, which generally creates drama and tension by itself by pissing off someone or something powerful or an entire organization or even country. If you know the interactions and bonds between the factions in your world, then reacting to PC intervention becomes easier.