A lot of terms are a lot more useful to agents, editors, and publishers than to writers. Voice is one of them. As you say, it comes naturally with writing and thinking. You can't really "learn" it. A way to know if you have it, is if the page is your living room, or your work room. If you treat the page like your home where you can say whatever the hell you want with confidence, you're likely to have a voice. If you treat it like you're going to work, having to withhold certain things or bleach your pen before you get started, you likely are censoring your voice.
As a libertarian author, I am expected to censor my voice. The industry refuses to allow me to write about certain topics. Agents only want voice if it agrees with their politics.
Thanks! You're right. Voice is rarely emphasized in any writing workshops, etc. I have attended. These exercises seem like they will be very interesting and helpful.
I've been told that I always write beautiful and detailed scenery and mostly strong dialogs. For some reason, writing these come naturally to me. While other parts I struggle a bit but manage them eventually. With my current work, I sadly held back vital information because I tried to be more mysterious about a character. Beta told me this isn't a good thing for readers when they suppose to be in his head. Good thing it was for the first 10k words, so the changes were quickly done. Again, after having worked with you on my last book and the feedback you've provided, and getting a new editor who made really good changes on how to formulate, I feel like now I can express myself more freely with my work without having the feeling I'm limited on how I write. Like I can get my voice out more than before.
Thank you so much for commenting - it makes me so happy to hear that you feel like you're better able to express your narrative voice after our work together!
Thank you Alyssa! Whenever I thought voice I thought of the character's voice in first person. You helped clear up how it works in the narrative including 3rd person. I appreciate it❤
Yes, transcending plot and character is Voice. Or style. The problem is, Voice/Style is very subjective when it comes to liking or disliking. But, the strength of the Voice or Style is a lot more measurable, at least I think so.
I've been told that when I write verbal fight dialogue scenes, people said it's like they are almost embarrassed to read it as if they are overhearing an actual fight. One person said it was almost like I had taken dictation for a fight she had with her husband.
Thus far, these are the words I'd use to describe my writer's voice: thoughtful, immersive, layered. All in all it's in the ballpark of the voice I've been chasing and teasing out of my head since childhood. The exercises you've brought up are excellent and I'll be sure to make use of them whenever it feels like my voice is slipping away.
I discovered I use distinct voices based on genre or series. I was approached by a reader at a convention who read both my urban fantasy and military science fiction but didn't put together it was the same author (despite the name on the cover) until I mentioned both series during the panel. It wasn't conscious, and I suspect they became more distinct as I wrote more books in both series/genres.
Perfect timing Alyssa, I finished the 1st draft of my debut book last night, the final battle was magnificent. This will help as all your videos do Alyssa. Thank you so much.
@AlyssaMatesic Thank you, writing that final battle, I was in that zone, I just kept trying and tying and typing, I was like a machine. Then once done I laid back on my bed and thought "I did it, now into the 2nd story" It's a series. My goal is to one day leave my job and be a novelist. I live for that day...perhaps it is that very ambition that drives me to keep writing every night like I do. Any spare chance I get, I'm writing.
Great advice. But I don't agree switching point of view in a single novel. I find it comfusing to follow the story. I feel if you choose first point of view, you go with it throughout the entire novel , if you choose the third point of view you also go with it throughout the book. Don't know if I am lost here anymore clarification please....
I still have zero idea what voice actually means to agents and publishers, but I now think is that neither do they and it's just a buzzword they use to sound like they know what they're talking about. It sounds like the formulaic 'business language' that they stock 80's businessman gag character on futurama would use.
@@katgreer6113 but on usa market if I write honestly then some people will call me racist, not to mention all those made up words that suppose to describe my normal point of view upon people with sexuality problems
I caught this video at the perfect time. I was afraid my book didn’t flow as well as I’d liked, so I made some edits Friday & then something felt off.. I was slightly overwhelmed- I didn’t know the word for it on Friday when I made the edits, those edits took away from my narrative voice!! Thankfully I didn’t delete my original work. Thanks Alyssa.
A method I've learned for studying narrative voice is to read large verity of books from different cultures and eras. Beyond modern fiction, Shakespear, Tolkien, Milton, Augustine, the Bible, ect.. No, these are not all fiction, but that's the point. Narrative voice will stick out like a sore thumb when contrasting Harry Potter to Tertullian (okay, I just used Tertullian because I like his stuff; he is really hard to read though). As for me, I find my narrative voice is meticulous, logical, and detailed. Perhaps too formal at times, while too causal at other times, -using old words that aren't used much anymore in one sentence, and then modern slang the next. Often times too long and filled with examples, but probably reads like it's been proofread a thousand times. Really, exactly like this. Yeah, I'm working on taking what works in my style and chiseling what doesn't.
My literary voice: Not. Yet. There. I have trouble when someone says I need to develop something intangible that can't really be described beyond, "You'll know it when you see it." At least you have exercises to work on the problem.
I got 78,000 words into my WIP, which I wanted to top out at 80k, and realized that my voice was a major issue. It had been 1st person from five distinct perspectives, but the 3rd person omniscient ended up being the best option. A few of my characters are wolves, who speak more in Middle English and Proto-Germanic inflection, my protagonist is a young mixed-race woman, my antagonist is a middle-aged marketing guy, and another main character is Māori...so, yeah...voice was way too squirrely to deal with in first person. In fact, I did not realize it until writing this comment, but essentially, I'm writing the Canterbury Tales with guns and tattoos.
Yeah, I think you made a good call. I think you gotta keep things simple for an American audience. Let those wolves talk in a good ol American accent. Also, I think you might want to drop the Māori. That seems like you're pushing it to hard be WOKE, unless they are all down under or something, Then you'd have to change the wolves to dingos, or better still thylacines. Good luck for sure. I can't wait to read your book. Sounds really fun.
I feel like my voice in writing is a constant give and take with proper English. No body, I know, in real life, speaks "proper" all the time. They'd sound like some British robot or something if they did. I got distracted by that off-the-cuff thought, but my point was. All the grammar checks, and blue-lines; make me feel like I'm doing something wrong.
I tend to have a neutral voice that slants towards my themes, oltherwise I let my characters have their voices, I think it would take an experienced literary critic to label my voice.
I find it difficult to comprehend why having a distinct, recognisable voice is considered a good thing. Surely being able to write in different styles and voices is more important, and indicative of writerly skill.
perhpas it's the same as teaching. why teach one subject when you can teach everything. A good teacher is able to teach anything. same as Art too. why paint in one style, when you can paint in any style. surely an artist can do that.
When you were leading up to saying what they are looking for beyond the first things I shrank in my seat and winced, sure you were going to say "an author they like" because in the back of my mind was the thought, "What if they just don't like ME?" Too much time on Twitter recently where things have been divisive 🤣🤣🤣
I know I have a strong voice, but I cannot express it in my query letters. Starting to think I need to ditch everything everyone says about writing a query letter, because my letters are not showing it at all.
I was wondering if I need to have a publisher and agent as a buffer and protection zone for book relating to critical thought and philosophy? I am really paranoid that a reader might misunderstand or get their beliefs too shaken by my impartiality and logic that they decide to do inhumane acts against me. Even worse if I offend an organization, even though I mean well, they might just harrass me. And I'm not sure what to do in terms of creating a protective barrier as an author against the elements that may be of danger. Also does I'm US based so I'm not sure if authors have special protections or something? I doubt it, but it would be nice to know.
For querying is it important to mention your age? As a teen writer who is nearing the end stages of her book, I am wondering if it will be necessary to mention this fact to literary agents. I am also struggling to identify where my story would fit, because it is borderline YA and middle grade. Thank you, Alyssa! I have been binge watching your videos for a while now and it has motivated me so much.
I guess to find your voice will happen when you are not trying to find your voice. That reminds me of an actor you in America may not know. His name was Heinz Rühmann. He started his career in the twenties of the last century on stage. And he was trying very hard to do a good job. But the critics were not very friendly. And then he said to him self "F... it. I will not put any work into the next production because the critics will be hostile anyway. So he just did not play but did as if it has he and not the character he had to play. And the next day in the newspaper he read: He finally found his voice.
The examples you mentioned are pretty meh. A real example of a good line: “Porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad, no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra.” -Cien Años De Soledad.
Yeah, 'voice' has always been hard for me to define, but I think Cormac McCarthy's writing illustrates a distinct voice that's easy to identify. read the first page of All the Pretty Horses and I think you'll see what I mean. Thanks for the great vids.
When I was 17/18 in high school my English teachers told me I have a voice in my writing and there is power in everything I write and that they look forward to picking up my books in the bookstore someday. That was I long time ago, now that I’m older I feel on one hand like I do have a voice, but also not… I know I tend to have a lot of dead pan sarcasm in my writing now. Honestly though I think my voice is just autism 😆 blunt.
Words beyond meaning or even mortality, there's infinite ways to define strong or original narrative voice. Its hard to even know what you want to write within first 500-700 pages... But I do believe deeply in having that confidence in your own ability to structure ideas /evocative emotions, because that's what you are trying to do when writing in the first place. 'You' is what separates you from others. Yet, even so, I find myself being greatly inspired by other authors. Name of the wind, somebody stop her... Hell , even things like light novel content can be of use. Poetry vs pacing vs descriptions vs dialogue vs art vs rationality vs vision vs being human to being insane. These options clash constantly, and depending on the style of story, each can overwhelm the other. I do think you want to sort of... Get somewhere, though, to be able to nuance the shit out of them. Coding, for instance, gets you to be able to write a lot more systematic coherent stuff good for epic scifi shenanigans. Doing art , seeing world through narrative and thematics, symbolism and things like that is very epic. Then you want to have this kind of psychological accuracy. Then you go wild, because once achieved you can write anything. Quite a bit like how knowing the rules of chess to a certain level you finally get to break them. When you know sanity, you can write insanity better. Things like that.
Thanks so much for letting me know! Just updated the description - and here is the link directly: www.queryacademy.com/free-resources/agency-master-list
Alyssa I’m looking to hire you soon!!!! I’ve begun the drafting of……….. AAAHHH!! The best series in a long time. The Ancient World 24-book universe. The main series: Ille Antiquus Mundus 1-4 Chronicum 1-3 Bar’Bariy 1-3 Reginae Ballum 1-3 Abrax: Aevum Fabularum 1-3 Ilios Profiteia 1-3 Adventures of the Ancient World 1-3 Short Stories of the Ancient World 1 Age of Sophia 1-3 I’m so excited to be drafting now after outlining and plotting for months!!-wait, years!!! Once I’m done draft 1 I’ll be looking for editing and prof feedback! Once I’m polishing Draft 3 I’ll be quarrying!!! How smokes!!! Is my dream actually coming true?! Less than 36 months away!! Who knows?! Only tomorrow does. 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉 Thanks for having always been around and boosting me up with your videas when the world went quiet and dark, Alyssa!!!
I have absolutely no idea what my current voice wold even be called as, and i have no idea what i'd even want my voice to be at this point. This is like walking into a theoretical astrophysics lecture halfway through. I am boggled.
When voice is so important to agents, I wonder why so many bad written (voiceless) books are in the bookshops (I would guess 80 percent at least).
A lot of terms are a lot more useful to agents, editors, and publishers than to writers. Voice is one of them. As you say, it comes naturally with writing and thinking. You can't really "learn" it. A way to know if you have it, is if the page is your living room, or your work room. If you treat the page like your home where you can say whatever the hell you want with confidence, you're likely to have a voice. If you treat it like you're going to work, having to withhold certain things or bleach your pen before you get started, you likely are censoring your voice.
Great point!
This dovetails into the idea of the ideal reader. If you aren't imagining your ideal reader, you aren't going to find your voice.
"Bleach your pen before you write"
What a wonderfully evocative phrase!
Love it ❤!
I like this thought! thx.
As a libertarian author, I am expected to censor my voice. The industry refuses to allow me to write about certain topics. Agents only want voice if it agrees with their politics.
Thanks! You're right. Voice is rarely emphasized in any writing workshops, etc. I have attended. These exercises seem like they will be very interesting and helpful.
I've been told that I always write beautiful and detailed scenery and mostly strong dialogs. For some reason, writing these come naturally to me. While other parts I struggle a bit but manage them eventually. With my current work, I sadly held back vital information because I tried to be more mysterious about a character. Beta told me this isn't a good thing for readers when they suppose to be in his head. Good thing it was for the first 10k words, so the changes were quickly done.
Again, after having worked with you on my last book and the feedback you've provided, and getting a new editor who made really good changes on how to formulate, I feel like now I can express myself more freely with my work without having the feeling I'm limited on how I write. Like I can get my voice out more than before.
Thank you so much for commenting - it makes me so happy to hear that you feel like you're better able to express your narrative voice after our work together!
Thank you Alyssa! Whenever I thought voice I thought of the character's voice in first person. You helped clear up how it works in the narrative including 3rd person. I appreciate it❤
Yes, transcending plot and character is Voice. Or style. The problem is, Voice/Style is very subjective when it comes to liking or disliking. But, the strength of the Voice or Style is a lot more measurable, at least I think so.
I've been told that when I write verbal fight dialogue scenes, people said it's like they are almost embarrassed to read it as if they are overhearing an actual fight. One person said it was almost like I had taken dictation for a fight she had with her husband.
This is inspirational and informative. Thank you 🤩
Thus far, these are the words I'd use to describe my writer's voice: thoughtful, immersive, layered. All in all it's in the ballpark of the voice I've been chasing and teasing out of my head since childhood. The exercises you've brought up are excellent and I'll be sure to make use of them whenever it feels like my voice is slipping away.
I am editing a key scene and found that splitting up the character perspective mid way helped. Good to know I'm on the right path
These needs and wants the agents are looking for is all subjective. One agent might hate the story while another one might find the story compelling.
I discovered I use distinct voices based on genre or series. I was approached by a reader at a convention who read both my urban fantasy and military science fiction but didn't put together it was the same author (despite the name on the cover) until I mentioned both series during the panel. It wasn't conscious, and I suspect they became more distinct as I wrote more books in both series/genres.
Perfect timing Alyssa, I finished the 1st draft of my debut book last night, the final battle was magnificent. This will help as all your videos do Alyssa. Thank you so much.
Congratulations on finishing your first draft - that's a huge accomplishment! 🎉
@AlyssaMatesic Thank you, writing that final battle, I was in that zone, I just kept trying and tying and typing, I was like a machine. Then once done I laid back on my bed and thought "I did it, now into the 2nd story" It's a series. My goal is to one day leave my job and be a novelist. I live for that day...perhaps it is that very ambition that drives me to keep writing every night like I do. Any spare chance I get, I'm writing.
These exercises will be something I do before I write my next manuscript. Thank you Alyssa, you are worth gold.
Great advice. But I don't agree switching point of view in a single novel. I find it comfusing to follow the story. I feel if you choose first point of view, you go with it throughout the entire novel , if you choose the third point of view you also go with it throughout the book. Don't know if I am lost here anymore clarification please....
I still have zero idea what voice actually means to agents and publishers, but I now think is that neither do they and it's just a buzzword they use to sound like they know what they're talking about. It sounds like the formulaic 'business language' that they stock 80's businessman gag character on futurama would use.
Voice is just you "writing honestly". Like, writing without trying too hard or censoring yourself too much.
@@katgreer6113 but on usa market if I write honestly then some people will call me racist, not to mention all those made up words that suppose to describe my normal point of view upon people with sexuality problems
@@theq6797Did you notice all those agents she showed were unmarried cat ladies?
@@TP-om8of No, but I checked this out now. Thanks for truth. Yeah, far-left vibes (almost all) and famous antiwhite codeword "diversity" (some).
I caught this video at the perfect time. I was afraid my book didn’t flow as well as I’d liked, so I made some edits Friday & then something felt off.. I was slightly overwhelmed- I didn’t know the word for it on Friday when I made the edits, those edits took away from my narrative voice!! Thankfully I didn’t delete my original work. Thanks Alyssa.
A method I've learned for studying narrative voice is to read large verity of books from different cultures and eras. Beyond modern fiction, Shakespear, Tolkien, Milton, Augustine, the Bible, ect.. No, these are not all fiction, but that's the point. Narrative voice will stick out like a sore thumb when contrasting Harry Potter to Tertullian (okay, I just used Tertullian because I like his stuff; he is really hard to read though).
As for me, I find my narrative voice is meticulous, logical, and detailed. Perhaps too formal at times, while too causal at other times, -using old words that aren't used much anymore in one sentence, and then modern slang the next. Often times too long and filled with examples, but probably reads like it's been proofread a thousand times. Really, exactly like this. Yeah, I'm working on taking what works in my style and chiseling what doesn't.
If my writer's voice was blue jeans, it would read "Relaxed Fit."
My literary voice: Not. Yet. There.
I have trouble when someone says I need to develop something intangible that can't really be described beyond, "You'll know it when you see it." At least you have exercises to work on the problem.
I totally agree - it is so nebulous and one of the hardest things for an author to develop, in my opinion. I hope you find the exercises helpful!
As always, amazing video that gives me motivation to write more.
So glad you enjoyed it - thanks for the kind comment!
@AlyssaMatesic of course, Your videos never miss and are full of gold
Thank you.
I got 78,000 words into my WIP, which I wanted to top out at 80k, and realized that my voice was a major issue. It had been 1st person from five distinct perspectives, but the 3rd person omniscient ended up being the best option. A few of my characters are wolves, who speak more in Middle English and Proto-Germanic inflection, my protagonist is a young mixed-race woman, my antagonist is a middle-aged marketing guy, and another main character is Māori...so, yeah...voice was way too squirrely to deal with in first person. In fact, I did not realize it until writing this comment, but essentially, I'm writing the Canterbury Tales with guns and tattoos.
Yeah, I think you made a good call. I think you gotta keep things simple for an American audience. Let those wolves talk in a good ol American accent. Also, I think you might want to drop the Māori. That seems like you're pushing it to hard be WOKE, unless they are all down under or something, Then you'd have to change the wolves to dingos, or better still thylacines. Good luck for sure. I can't wait to read your book. Sounds really fun.
Alternatively, have none of these and happen to have written something with superficial similarities to something actually good and popular.
I feel like my voice in writing is a constant give and take with proper English. No body, I know, in real life, speaks "proper" all the time. They'd sound like some British robot or something if they did. I got distracted by that off-the-cuff thought, but my point was. All the grammar checks, and blue-lines; make me feel like I'm doing something wrong.
Don’t write like your English teachers want you to write.
Write the way YOU want to write.
Then you’ll be more than 1/2 way there.
I tend to have a neutral voice that slants towards my themes, oltherwise I let my characters have their voices, I think it would take an experienced literary critic to label my voice.
I find it difficult to comprehend why having a distinct, recognisable voice is considered a good thing. Surely being able to write in different styles and voices is more important, and indicative of writerly skill.
perhpas it's the same as teaching. why teach one subject when you can teach everything. A good teacher is able to teach anything. same as Art too. why paint in one style, when you can paint in any style. surely an artist can do that.
When you were leading up to saying what they are looking for beyond the first things I shrank in my seat and winced, sure you were going to say "an author they like" because in the back of my mind was the thought, "What if they just don't like ME?" Too much time on Twitter recently where things have been divisive 🤣🤣🤣
I know I have a strong voice, but I cannot express it in my query letters. Starting to think I need to ditch everything everyone says about writing a query letter, because my letters are not showing it at all.
I was wondering if I need to have a publisher and agent as a buffer and protection zone for book relating to critical thought and philosophy? I am really paranoid that a reader might misunderstand or get their beliefs too shaken by my impartiality and logic that they decide to do inhumane acts against me. Even worse if I offend an organization, even though I mean well, they might just harrass me. And I'm not sure what to do in terms of creating a protective barrier as an author against the elements that may be of danger. Also does I'm US based so I'm not sure if authors have special protections or something? I doubt it, but it would be nice to know.
For querying is it important to mention your age? As a teen writer who is nearing the end stages of her book, I am wondering if it will be necessary to mention this fact to literary agents. I am also struggling to identify where my story would fit, because it is borderline YA and middle grade. Thank you, Alyssa! I have been binge watching your videos for a while now and it has motivated me so much.
I guess to find your voice will happen when you are not trying to find your voice. That reminds me of an actor you in America may not know. His name was Heinz Rühmann. He started his career in the twenties of the last century on stage. And he was trying very hard to do a good job. But the critics were not very friendly. And then he said to him self "F... it. I will not put any work into the next production because the critics will be hostile anyway. So he just did not play but did as if it has he and not the character he had to play. And the next day in the newspaper he read: He finally found his voice.
The examples you mentioned are pretty meh. A real example of a good line:
“Porque las estirpes condenadas a cien años de soledad, no tenían una segunda oportunidad sobre la tierra.”
-Cien Años De Soledad.
I tend to have a really deep voice first thing in the morning but it soon fades.
WORDS! it's words, right?
Yeah, 'voice' has always been hard for me to define, but I think Cormac McCarthy's writing illustrates a distinct voice that's easy to identify. read the first page of All the Pretty Horses and I think you'll see what I mean. Thanks for the great vids.
Great example - thank you so much for sharing!
When I was 17/18 in high school my English teachers told me I have a voice in my writing and there is power in everything I write and that they look forward to picking up my books in the bookstore someday. That was I long time ago, now that I’m older I feel on one hand like I do have a voice, but also not… I know I tend to have a lot of dead pan sarcasm in my writing now. Honestly though I think my voice is just autism 😆 blunt.
Words beyond meaning or even mortality, there's infinite ways to define strong or original narrative voice. Its hard to even know what you want to write within first 500-700 pages... But I do believe deeply in having that confidence in your own ability to structure ideas /evocative emotions, because that's what you are trying to do when writing in the first place. 'You' is what separates you from others. Yet, even so, I find myself being greatly inspired by other authors. Name of the wind, somebody stop her... Hell , even things like light novel content can be of use. Poetry vs pacing vs descriptions vs dialogue vs art vs rationality vs vision vs being human to being insane. These options clash constantly, and depending on the style of story, each can overwhelm the other. I do think you want to sort of... Get somewhere, though, to be able to nuance the shit out of them. Coding, for instance, gets you to be able to write a lot more systematic coherent stuff good for epic scifi shenanigans. Doing art , seeing world through narrative and thematics, symbolism and things like that is very epic. Then you want to have this kind of psychological accuracy. Then you go wild, because once achieved you can write anything. Quite a bit like how knowing the rules of chess to a certain level you finally get to break them. When you know sanity, you can write insanity better. Things like that.
I don’t know if I haven’t found my narrative voice or just do not recognize it.
Wonder where she got all the "knowledge" that she's touting here.
Helpful advice - thanks Alyssa - cheers
This is what I needed. 👋😊
I’m not seeing the query Academy link in the description??
Thanks so much for letting me know! Just updated - and here is the link again: www.queryacademy.com/free-resources/agency-master-list
Thank you!
They look for the smell of money
😃👍
Did I miss something? I don't see a link to that list of agents anywhere?
Thanks so much for letting me know! Just updated the description - and here is the link directly: www.queryacademy.com/free-resources/agency-master-list
Alyssa I’m looking to hire you soon!!!!
I’ve begun the drafting of……….. AAAHHH!! The best series in a long time.
The Ancient World 24-book universe.
The main series: Ille Antiquus Mundus 1-4
Chronicum 1-3
Bar’Bariy 1-3
Reginae Ballum 1-3
Abrax: Aevum Fabularum 1-3
Ilios Profiteia 1-3
Adventures of the Ancient World 1-3
Short Stories of the Ancient World 1
Age of Sophia 1-3
I’m so excited to be drafting now after outlining and plotting for months!!-wait, years!!! Once I’m done draft 1 I’ll be looking for editing and prof feedback! Once I’m polishing Draft 3 I’ll be quarrying!!!
How smokes!!! Is my dream actually coming true?! Less than 36 months away!! Who knows?! Only tomorrow does.
🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Thanks for having always been around and boosting me up with your videas when the world went quiet and dark, Alyssa!!!
Do you think that living outside of the US lowers your chances of getting represented by a US agent?
Love your channel
Thank you so much - it means a lot!
It's just a shame all these narrative voices are all starting to sound exactly the same...
Hi!
Just wanted to be first for a change
I have absolutely no idea what my current voice wold even be called as, and i have no idea what i'd even want my voice to be at this point.
This is like walking into a theoretical astrophysics lecture halfway through. I am boggled.
Thought she was wearing furry ears at the opening of the video...
Second example... more of the same. Trash. Perhaps fantasy (aka childish nonsense) is not my cup of tea.
Umm... the first example, dreadful and absurd comes to mind. In a word, terrible.
❤