The way Tolkien describes the contrast between how saruman and sauron get blown away after losing form is awesom. Sarumans is really quite sad dispite what hes done. Sauron is filled with anger and malice even until the bitter end.
I agree. I think that's because Saruman probably realized his folly by the end and regretted it, whereas Sauron was too far gone and had only hatred for his defeat, not remorse. Either way, remember that Manwe is the Lord of Winds and I think it's no coincidence that a wind blows both away. He basically shoos Sauron away to stop being a nuisance and flatly refuses Saruman's unspoken plea to return home. Dad was angry.
@@Play3rID 100%, especially given some of Tolkiens later writings on forcinstance the Silmarils where he seemed to worry a bit that his writing made the concept of evil seem foreign to mankind by having the corrupting mcguffin be "external" (the ring), whereas the silmarils were inherently good but people could commit great evils seeking them due to intrinsic greed and hate and lust for power.
I'd argue that he himself doesn't do the corruption. People who seek him out and who come to admire him or try to emulate him (like Saruman) become corrupted, but he, himself, has no power to do anything to anyone. If others are corrupted by seeking him out, it is because of the choices they make, not his influence.
I'm pretty sure Manwe disciplined both him and Saruman pretty hard. He learned from his mistake with Morgoth. Though, in this case, Sauron's punishment was mostly self-inflicted. Manwe just kind of brushed away that last little bit.
Eru isn't just about being good I don't think. Since his creations are corruptable. Eru might be more interested in freedom and choice. Only intervening when the balance is lost. Till then patiently enjoy the creation developing on it's own.
@@Spiethstar Eru is neutral. In the beginning when Morgoth sang the disonance into the world and the other Valar where angry at him Eru basically said: i made him this way, if you wanna be mad at his ways, you gotta be mad at me. Eru is true neutral i think.
The last quotation you read contains a pleasing nod to the fantasy writings of Lord Dunsany, in the reference to "the fields we know". ". . . beyond the fields we know" is a phrase Dunsany uses many times in his stories to refer to the location of the magical kingdom of Elfland. No doubt Tolkien was well aware of this and included the words as a kind of Easter egg in LotR.
Robert you have such a talent for this. I’ve listened to so many of your videos on LOTR and your analysis is unmatched. Thank you for lending your talents to the rest of us!
I had the impression that Sauron, like Saruman, was reduced to a state where he could not only never again take physical form, but also have influence on the world. Instead, he would be forced to see a world in which his influence had been erased, all his plans undone, which would be a form of punishment and purgatory more fitting than complete destruction. The new shadow was the result not of Sauron's continuing existence but his past influence persisting in the memories of those who followed him.
I always loved the description of Saruman’s end-his spirit looks to the west and is ultimately rejected not for his failure in his mission (forgivable) but his ultimate betrayal of everything he was meant to stand for
Love this channel, on UA-cam there are so many channels that have clickbaity titles and when I first stumbled on it I thought it would be something similar but you actually delve into the topics more than surface level and make good content out of these common questions.
2:35 I remember in Return of the King there is one scene where the Sauron appears with physical body. It's when Aragorn used the Palantir to confront him, if you look inside you can see him holding his own Palantir.
Ahhh I arrived in time just to see Melkor mar Arda with his song of Discord.. Robert your videos on both Tolkien’s works & George’s world of Ice & Fire have gotten me through the toughest of times in recent years. I thank you🙏🏼😊
I was just up last night thinking about Gandalfs’ resurrection. And the more I thought about, the more I think that Gandalf for all intents and purposes dies, as much as a maia can. I think that when Gandalf fights the Balrog, he fully expects to not come back, to ’die’. He’s done all that he could, and this is how far his help brought the people of middle earth. Now it’s up to them, and he can go and rest. It’s only Eru who sends him back. He doesn’t choose to reincarnate, he’s given the task to try again by Eru himself. Assuming that Gandalf knew that he would be coming back and that Eru would basically give him retries until he wins, robs the story of all tension. I refuse to believe Tolkien would want us to view the story in that light.
Small nitpick: Even if Gandalf did know that Eru would just keep sending him back, dying is still quite unpleasant. So Gandalf would have plenty of incentive to not "Yolo" it. Also, if he got too careless, there's a chance that right after he was killed, Orcs etc took his body. And either cut it to pieces or ate it or whatever - preventing Gandalf from respawning in situ. And if he had to travel all the way from the halls of Mandos back to not just the Grey Havens but then on to Minas Tirith or whatever, he'd get there wayyyy too late. And if he didn't get killed but knocked out, the Orcs could've bound him and carried him to Minas Morgul or whatever, keep him prisoner there, and/or torture him in Barad Dur itself. So he needed to take things seriously and not get too cocky either way.
@@MrNicoJac I'd also like to nitpick that Eru likely did not send him back. The Silmarillion states that all the Ainur who chose to enter into Arda (and would become the Valar and Maiar) were making a choice to be bound to Arda until its end. Even if Gandalf WANTED to return to the Halls of Illuvitar, he cannot. But, as a Maiar, his physical form is something that can be worn or shed "as garments", so he likely could have returned of his own accord, given time. The exact amount of time is unclear, but Tolkien consistently describes the Ainur whose physical forms are destroyed as requiring some time to re-body themselves. But I believe that Manwe and the other Valar "fast-tracked" him because letting him re-body himself would take too much time and removed some of the limits of his power as something like a promotion for his service and possibly because they recognized the need for someone with greater authority to be present at the climax of these events. As for why he didn't "yolo" it, that's for the same reason he was there at all. He never WANTED this mission, but he did his job because his Valar (Varda) told him to go. And, as we see from the fate of the others Istari, Gandalf is the only one who seems to actually take his duty seriously and stick to it. Radagast gets distracted, the Blue Wizards lose the way and set up cults almost immediately, and Saruman suffers a similar fall some time later. So I would say that, yes Gandalf did die as much as a Maiar can (without crazy shenanigans like Sauron pulled) and he probably DID believe that was the end of his role in all of it, but he still had plenty of reason to avoid that as best as he could.
@@weezact7 No, Ilúvatar did send him back. The text in the Two Towers is pretty clear from its description that he did not go to Valinor or anywhere else in Arda when he died after slaying Durin's Bane. Tolkien also talks about this in greater detail in letter 156.
Completely agree on the point of Gandalf not wanting to take any risks about dying. Gandalf doesn't expect to come back, but still chooses to fight the Balrog, because there just is no other way out of that situation. If he doesn't make the sacrifice, the fellowship is doomed, and he knows it.
Great video, Robert! One piece of technical feedback. In the last couple of videos, I've noticed that there have been audio clips that seem to have the volume dip too soon, cutting off the last word. They're are a few such examples in this one, most notably at 9:24. Just something to keep an eye out for in future videos.
I like to imagine Aule stepping in personally to deny both of his once mighty disciples any chance of ever playing a part in anything evil. Watching it from Valinor, he must have felt such disappointment, perhaps even embarrassment. Both Sauron and Saruman were given a chance to repent, even quite late in their stories after having already done much evil, but they chose not to.. pride, lust for power were their undoing.
I get the feeling that those Maiar that remain loyal to Eru are in turn restored by him after death. Whilst those that turn to evil don’t get this benefit. Since Gandalf is “a servant of the secret fire” when he dies after defeating the Balrog, Eru brings him back and even gives him a power up. But Sauron, Saruman and the Balrogs receive no such benefits. If they are “killed” no respawns for them. I reckon their spirits get banished to the void where Morgoth lives or something. I want to know what would happen if Radagast or the blue wizards died. Would they be restored like Gandalf or blown away like evil Maiar. Since they don’t quite stick to their mission but don’t turn to evil either.
I think the Maia who sided with morgoth get an even worse punishment. Thier spirits remain in the world, but are powerless to interact with it in any way. A fitting punishment for those who sought domination and control
Sauron was already evil and was killed twice before the ring was destroyed (when Numenor sank and in his duel against Elendil and Gil-Galad) and both times he was able to return on his own. The other evil Mayar must be able to recreate their bodies as well, just as Sauron did. If they didn’t return at some point, then either Tolkien simply didn’t care to think about, or perhaps they were so ashamed or repentant of their defeat that they didn’t dare to recreate physical bodies. In Sauron’s case, he was unable to return a third time simply because most of his power has been infused in the ring. Its destruction made Sauron powerless to be no more than a spirit that cannot be seen and cannot interact with the “real” world.
@@licmir3663 But that also means the reason Sauron was able to come back on his own may have been that great parts of him were stored on that ring which survived. Whereas, when Gandalf or Saruman died, all oh them went up in smoke. Through the One Ring Sauron become some kind of Lich and the ring his phylactery.
If you want a Christian theological analogy, it would be Tartarus, which of course comes from Greek mythology. Pretty shameful how much of this nonsense still survives to the present day in religions that worship books from 1900 (or less) years ago.
I've always understood the concept of Maiar and Valar losing power as a process of very slow but also very certain regeneration. Just like it is foretold that Melkor will once return from the darkness he was cast into, so should Sauron once he gathers strength again in his future followers. The New Shadow sequel would have definitely delved into that aspect imo, had Tolkien actually finished it EDIT: Tolkien himself described The New Shadow as "too depressing to finish" and I believe this very thought of everlasting evil is what he was hinting at
Yeah, I think for some writers the idea that evil is never truly defeated and that humans always backslide into it again either due to complacency or greed doesn't sound like a great inspiring story. It sounds too much like actual world history with repeated mistakes making the sacrifices of a prior generation often pointless as here we are back again. Sometimes it is best just to let the story end nicely. I agree that Sauron would likely have been a corrupting influence. Some poor soul would likely come across his vengeful spirt in some dark cave, forsaken ruin, or fetid swamp somewhere in the East, Far South, or maybe the pits of Utumno. For those familiar with the anime/manga Naruto I can kind of see him like a non-corporeal Madara Uchiha whose hatred and desire for order on his terms corrupted many either in service of his plans or making questionably moral choices to defeat those plans.
Well, the way Tolkien wrote it, everlasting evil is baked into Middle Earth by the actions of Melkor in its beginning until it is eventually remade. There's simply no other way it could be. To tell The New Shadow would really be telling the same story again, but in a diminished world that has already lost so much from the previous age, which would be the most depressing part (at least to my mind). Even if the evil thing is eventually vanquished (again), the influence of Melkor remains throughout the world to seed corruption anew in another generation. And another. And another. Best to stop at a high point and leave the future alone.
It seems that Tolkien wanted to extend the universe he created, expanding it. But several developments of the story at the end of the third age seemingly drove him into the corner. It was becoming a burden, due to severe limitations put on the story development options. The reason why often large cuts are made in order to free the story writers from many, if not most, limitations. Probably, a clean cut would have been the best way, only referencing past events and characters, creating a completely new world. Maybe explained due to Eru changing, or improving the world again. As it is said. Gods don't die, they are changing their names and appearances. Something like that could have given a lot more options. Including renewed magic abilities. It's tough to be the creator of a whole genre, as many tricks only develop over time with new authors. Tolkien's shadow is vast, and even today authors aren't free from his influence. Tolkien transformed fairy tales and legends into modern fantasy. Not every author can claim something like that.
Very timely, for some reason I was just thinking of this the other day! I have also been wondering where and in what form he actually was during that period.
The spirit lives on in the hearts of those that lust for power, wish misfortune on others, seek to dominate the weak. In this sense, Sauron will never be gone. His memory will remain. Though he may not be able to manifest physically, through the hearts and bodies of the wicked, great evil will still carry on.
We can see Sauron in the dictators and billionaires of today: Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Peter Thiel, Benjamin Netanyahu, Kim Jong Un, Vladimir Putin, Viktor Orban, and recently elected POTUS Donald Trump.
Just started watching your videos a few days ago. I've been binging your LOTR series and got here just in time for this one, answering one of my many questions
What I love about this and other recent videos is how you take a known scenarios, like a pie, and then examine the logical extension of the pie like an extended crust. You put together a combination of what is known about the next extension and use either what we know. Of similar areas or with other extrapolations to form the basis of interpolating the most logical and Tolkienian based outcome or possibility.
Thank you very much for your videos, I love them a lot. I learn more about Tolkien's legendarium and that's great. Also, you have a really soft and soothing voice, your narration is great and I only recently realized that there is no background music, that's how great I think your content is. TLDR : Great content, quality narration, no music needed
Very interesting -- I cannot see if you have addressed Morgoth's demise and speculated on that in your playlist, but I would sure love to hear your thoughts on it.
Love your videos and your explanations. I picture something silmilar to what was left of Voldemort in Harry Potter after all the horcruxes were destroyed. So much of his soul was put into other objects that once they were gone all that was left was a disfigured, warped and pittiful being remained. No longer threatening, but to be pitied.
I’m guessing the implicit The New Shadow was that Sauron did return but without his form, but enough for those who had evil In their hearts to hear him. Not returned as Sauron can not really do anything, but enough of a whisper to get those with evil in their hearts to do evil in a more focused manner.
That's what I always imagined too. And I respectfully disagree with Tolkien - it had the potential of a fantastic story, but of course it's the author's decision in the end.
I think Saruman would be a more likely threat to reemerge than Sauron, though that would probably still take time. Probably more time than what had past for it to happen in the event that could've taken The new shadow at the very least. It would be interesting I think for him to return in a such a way. for out of the characters present in LotR main story, I think Saruman is the closest to a "grey" morality, as in he's not so far gone I think that coming back to the light isn't fully out of the question.
Thank you for all your hard work and generosity. Love your work on Professor Tolkien's work. I wonder, if in need of a new subject, if ASOIAF and/or Witcher ever run thin, might you look into other great works of fantasy literature? If so, I should like to cast my vote for Malzan: Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson. I am sure I am neither the first nor the last to make this suggestion, and I fully expect that if any new material should be taken on, it would much more likely be Mistborn or the like, but I personally have found Malazan to be far more satisfying to study than any other conventional work of fantasy literature, and I feel you and many of your fans would as well, especially if you were doing the work and not them. I of course already have and would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you again, sir.
Word is he turned over a new leaf. Runs a UA-cam channel that goes deep into the lore of Middle Earth. Answers the questions asked by geeks everywhere. It’s probably just an urban legend.
This is likely the second most important topic, save for the will of Eru. Like someone in the comments said, the things of old can exist in an idea for a long time. I think you did good for such a short video.
I love the idea that unlike Morgoth in the Void, Sauron is still with us, but he has no power or influence to do anything, and he has to watch everything he built be torn down and destroyed, until all that remains is a distant memory. That has to be such a Hell for Sauron, and he deserves it so much since it's clear he doesn't want to be sorry for his actions. If Sauron were to somehow be visible to us, he would be laughably impotent, and he would deserve being laughed at.
Ever been to Cleveland in the winter? It has the cold chill of Otumno and the perpetual darkness of Mordor. If I had to guess I would say that’s where his spirit ended up.
I wish your videos were 5-10 minutes longer. ❤ I watch LOTR content to fall asleep and just when it’s setting in I have to find another video. Love your channel!!
@robertstevensii4018 those are just embarrassing 😂 most don't know what they actually say. At least the inscription in the one ring remained the same so no confusion
Mad respect for including art credits at the end. Too many geekdom creators nowadays are using plagiarism software (AI) to make their images. Glad to see you're one of the few who still has integrity.
@@collapsedlung_ because generative AI programs create their images by stealing from real artists and photographers, without their consent, credit, or compensation. When you steal from another artist, that's called plagiarism.
@@davorzdralo8000 It's not ludditism, jackass, AI is theft, pure and simple. It's also ruinously wasteful in terms of electrical waste, but hey, don't take my word for it, right? .
His spirit rested until millennia later when his 17th Century portrait was retrieved out of storage and restored in the one of the galleries of the Manhattan Museum of Art in NYC back in 1989. The rest you know already… 😂
I always understood the description of how Saruman and Sauron were rejected by the Valar as being banished to an unintelligible whisper possible to be heard but never again understood, a fleeting shadow seen from the corner of your eye that vanishes when you look directly at it.
"He could no longer take a physical form or inflience events to any significant degree; he's now just a spirit of malice..." But what if he embeds himself into the back of the head of a meek Gondorian lector?
@indeepgeek I have a question on a semi related topic. In the fellowship of the ring Gandalf faces the balrog and is drawn down into the depths of Moria when the Balrog falls and takes Gandalf with him. The narrative of later books tells that Gandalf fought and bested the Balrog but died, and was consequently resurrected and sent back. So here lies my question. Apart from the testimony of Gandalf, is there actually any evidence that Gandalf won? The lack of the balrog returning to Moria is not necessarily evidence that it was vanquished, after all the balrog was lurking in the depths of Moria for thousands (?) of years after Morgoth was defeated at the end of the first age. Its not implausible that it just decided to do it again. What actual evidence is there that Gandalf did not just make this narrative up?
Awesome question/theory! But I sadly have to dismiss it. The evidence is not particularly hard, I admit, but the best we have very much favors Gandalf's account. Even disregarding Gandalf's own character, Eru brought him back to life and he was allowed to return to Valinor, the only of the Istari to do so. Clearly he was on the right side of both Eru and he Valar. The Valar specifically instructed him not to show off his power. Defeating a Balrog is already dangerously close to crossing that line. Lying that he did, though? If he was defeated, it would be more in line with his mission to admit as much.
Unrelated to this video but me and my dad like to discuss LOTR and he was rereading the end of the fellowship and something that Aragon said stood out to him he was talking about his plans for going to Mordor and said that if he had his way him Gimli Sam and Frodo would take the ring to be destroyed in Mt Doom. No Legolas on this journey. Your thoughts?
I like the word "Self-Incarnation"; I picked it up from Robert E. Howard's "The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian". You should incorporate REH and HP Lovecraft in your YT universe; to help others identify the shadow. "The man who knows, must Strike."
Hi Robert! Although the West "blew his spirit away" after he died, I like to believe that Sauron was still free to return to Valinor to face judgement at any time. The only reason he didn't was his pride and fear.
First, the answer is very clear in the books. He does not die, he just can't reform a body in any foreseeable timeframes. Where it last took him millennia to reform a body, it would now take several ages. Possibly to the end of all time. This is made harder by the fact the Valar blew him away, scattering his spirit further into the void. BUT, as you point out (there was a follow up to the LotR) it is entirely possible that the effects of Sauron were not over and his evil influence would still be powerful as ever before, if not even more powerful. Just like when a moist surface is hit by sunlight such that water is absorbed by the air and rises upwards into the skies, where all it takes is a single particle of dust for it to condense upon and form rain. Just like that, all it takes for the corruption to seed and grow in humankind is a tiny amount of evil which is allowed to grow out of proportions. That evil permeating all of the known space and time (which is made up of Sauron's disembodied spirit) is enough to create new lords of evil and destruction. Just like a small disagreement about a text in a book can lead to wars. A small bad deed can grow in denial of the fact into a truly evil being hellbent on destroying all. Humans are naturally flawed in this way, no matter how perfect their world is, they will always find a way to corrupt it.
The short answer is "Yes, Ainur are eternal, period" The only way that Sauron could return would be posessing someone. Which actually lore friendly (and Sauron had taught others how to do it) as he's a Houseless spirit now. Which could be a cool fanfic idea if it wasn't already being used in one Edit - it's Sauron's Power, not his Soul, in the One Ring. Souls are indivisible and indestructible in the Legendarium, as per Tolkien
Tolkien also compared Sauron to Melkor, who also lost his body, but is foreshadowed to return. He attributed this to a measure of wisdom Melkor owned that Sauron didn't (ironic, I think, since in most cases Sauron seemed wiser). Melkor could foster patience, recovering over the ages, putting off his vengeance. Whereas Sauron, as soon as he manifested any ability or any kind, would immediately waste it in malice, and be forced to start over.
All beings in the Tolkien legendarium are built of the Flame Imperishable (Gandalf speaks of it in Moria as the Secret Fire), which means they can't end by definition. But they move around. Evil beings get farther and farther away from other creation, falling into the Void.
Excellent video. Btut Gandalf's lines about Sauron becoming a spirit of malice gnawing itself, etc, comes in "The Last Debate" in ROTK, not in the council of Elrond...
I always imagined him held in the Halls of Mandos, weakened, damaged and bound like Melkor in the first age, possibly not even in a physical form. Having his dark form dispersed by the wind seems fitting given that Manwe was the master of "winds and airs".
I'm now listening to this post but from what I remember Sauron doesn't die but he's put so much of himself into the ring he is unable to shape/form again once the ring is destroyed.
Here’s an idea for a video. What if the three elven rings had not been made? Lothlorien and Rivendell were supported by the rings of Galadriel and Elrond, where would they have been had they not been borrowing Sauron’s power?
I guess the real question, if we take Gandalf as making an educated guess rather than 'Word of God' on the matter (no pun intended) is whether or not destroying the ring *destroyed* that power poured into it, or *released* that power. If destroyed, then Sauron could never again come back as a force of any power. If it was merely released, even if not released back to him, then Sauron may 'find it' again (if such is the kind of terminology one should use for a presumably non-spatial spiritual realm). Any concrete word on whether the destruction of the ring destroyed the power, or released it?
An interesting premise, and one that I had never considered. I wonder if it would be possible for his spirit to be consolidated and remade using fell magics and blood sacrifices?
Gandalf does believe that that Sauron defeat is final. And I guess even if he is able to regain some of his strength, it will take thousands of years. With him gone for a good long spell at least the evil throne is vacant. It might be taken by Saruman. Unlike Sauron Saruman was "just killed", he was rejected from the West so evidently is destined to wander around Middle Earth. In Tolkien universe seems Maia can regain its strength with time (or quickly with Eru's help). So having nothing else to do it is only logical that with time he will be able to start restoration of an evil empire. And if Tolkien was thinking about a sequel and "old evil", I would think the Saruman to be that evil more likely than Sauron for who 200 hundred years is not too much time to restore if it is even possible.
We're really not given much information about what happens to a Maia when it is killed; we don't know where their spirits usually go. The two most prominent examples, Gandalf and Sauron, are exceptions as Gandalf is restored and sent back by Ilúvatar while Sauron's return is aided by his having put so much of his power into the One Ring until it is destroyed and Sauron is rendered powerless to return again. But what is the fate of Durin's Bane, other Balrogs, and any other Maia that might have perished in the battles and wars of Middle-Earth? We don't hear of any of them returning. Saruman's power had been broken by the time he died in The Shire so I don't think he was ever able to return again either.
I imagined that when he was defeated, Sauron became like an invisible fly: annoying but ultimately harmless. Being raised Catholic, I equated Sauron, Morgoth's chief lieutenant, to Beelzebub, Satan's right-hand man and the "lord of the flies." Also, I read Lord of the Flies around the same time that I first read Lord of the Rings, so it seemed kind of poetic to me.
It seems to me that you're right about Sauron's fate. That he was inflicted with a fate perhaps _worse_ than death, for he was weak, impotent, and spread far and wide, incapable of doing anything but observing. Forced to watch as all his plans came crumbling down. Forced to _watch_ as all his enemies celebrated their triumph, and undo all his triumphs as they live happy lives (bar, sadly, Frodo). Such a fate would be a terrible torture.
I always thought that the Maiar needed the power of the Valar to manifest physical bodies in Middle Earth - they needed to be sent. That Morgoth granted Sauron this power, as his emissary. After Morgoth's displacement from Middle Earth, Sauron invested much of this power of incorporation into the one ring. When the one ring was destroyed, and without the patronage of another Valar, Sauron's ability to incorporate was lost, and he remains forever a spirit.
Sauron is absolutely fine. I met him at a work thing over Christmas in a pub in Hackney. He looked well, he drunk a bit too much but I did too so I'm not judging. Unfortunately, he got a bit antsy and ended up buying some cheap speed from a guy (he thought it was coke) and things got a bit off the rails so I ducked out.
It is interesting, though, that the Ring, though separated from Sauron, apparently still succored him. As it's destruction damaged Sauron himself, miles away in his tower. 🤔
What happened to Sauron when his body perished during the doom of Numenor? Or rather, how did he re-take physical form? If at the end of the 1st Age, when Melkor was thrown into the void, the Valar told Sauron to come to Valinor for judgment, but he fled into Middle-Earth instead, why was he allowed by the Valar to pass back into Arda? And 2nd question; was the ring with Sauron on Numenor? If so, what happened to it when his body perished? Thanks.
He's only able to perpetrate minor evils. Lose your keys? Sauron. Forgot your significant other's birthday? Sauron
😂😂😂😂
The way Tolkien describes the contrast between how saruman and sauron get blown away after losing form is awesom. Sarumans is really quite sad dispite what hes done. Sauron is filled with anger and malice even until the bitter end.
I agree. I think that's because Saruman probably realized his folly by the end and regretted it, whereas Sauron was too far gone and had only hatred for his defeat, not remorse.
Either way, remember that Manwe is the Lord of Winds and I think it's no coincidence that a wind blows both away. He basically shoos Sauron away to stop being a nuisance and flatly refuses Saruman's unspoken plea to return home. Dad was angry.
Saruman would like to be shown mercy when he is finally incapable of doing harm to others and not a moment before.
What to remorse anyway? It's a temporary place formed form singing. Dad probably gonna orginise another one.
Yes I like this
I don't remember that part, but i am pretty sure Sauron is not about hatered and malice. He is all about order by any means necessary.
He became an idea. A concept. No power or influence in and of himself, but still able to corrupt those who seek him out.
That’s a great interpretation! I love it, it seems fitting for Tolkien too.
@@Play3rID 100%, especially given some of Tolkiens later writings on forcinstance the Silmarils where he seemed to worry a bit that his writing made the concept of evil seem foreign to mankind by having the corrupting mcguffin be "external" (the ring), whereas the silmarils were inherently good but people could commit great evils seeking them due to intrinsic greed and hate and lust for power.
That description reminds me of that Twilight Zone where the "idea" of Hitler inspires Dennis Hopper to be a neo-nazi.
I'd argue that he himself doesn't do the corruption. People who seek him out and who come to admire him or try to emulate him (like Saruman) become corrupted, but he, himself, has no power to do anything to anyone. If others are corrupted by seeking him out, it is because of the choices they make, not his influence.
One can kill many things, but never an idea, so as long as there were minds to corrupt he would linger on.
He is currently working at the DMV.
He hasn't changed.
talk about torture 😅
He inflicts just as much evil on the world but his scope is drastically narrowed
One Line (at the DMV) to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them.
the only sauron-like people at the dmv, are the rude or slanderous people that mistreat the dmv employees.
@joseywales6168
😂
So which window do YOU work at??
Only a DMV employee wouldn't get the joke.
Even postal employees have a sense of humor.
So he's promising Eru that this time, this time, he'll be good....
I'm pretty sure Manwe disciplined both him and Saruman pretty hard. He learned from his mistake with Morgoth. Though, in this case, Sauron's punishment was mostly self-inflicted. Manwe just kind of brushed away that last little bit.
Eru isn't just about being good I don't think. Since his creations are corruptable.
Eru might be more interested in freedom and choice. Only intervening when the balance is lost.
Till then patiently enjoy the creation developing on it's own.
Yeah. Eru respects freedom of choice of his creators.
@@Spiethstar
Eru is neutral. In the beginning when Morgoth sang the disonance into the world and the other Valar where angry at him Eru basically said: i made him this way, if you wanna be mad at his ways, you gotta be mad at me.
Eru is true neutral i think.
The last quotation you read contains a pleasing nod to the fantasy writings of Lord Dunsany, in the reference to "the fields we know". ". . . beyond the fields we know" is a phrase Dunsany uses many times in his stories to refer to the location of the magical kingdom of Elfland. No doubt Tolkien was well aware of this and included the words as a kind of Easter egg in LotR.
0:32 "Legolas and gimli go on a road trip" hahahaha, idk why this was so funny to me
Historians will say they were the best of friends.
Because that's basically what happened.
Robert you have such a talent for this. I’ve listened to so many of your videos on LOTR and your analysis is unmatched. Thank you for lending your talents to the rest of us!
Agreed!!
I had the impression that Sauron, like Saruman, was reduced to a state where he could not only never again take physical form, but also have influence on the world. Instead, he would be forced to see a world in which his influence had been erased, all his plans undone, which would be a form of punishment and purgatory more fitting than complete destruction. The new shadow was the result not of Sauron's continuing existence but his past influence persisting in the memories of those who followed him.
I always loved the description of Saruman’s end-his spirit looks to the west and is ultimately rejected not for his failure in his mission (forgivable) but his ultimate betrayal of everything he was meant to stand for
"Somehow, Sauron returned."
Okay honestly I think that would be a better movie concept considering.
Love this channel, on UA-cam there are so many channels that have clickbaity titles and when I first stumbled on it I thought it would be something similar but you actually delve into the topics more than surface level and make good content out of these common questions.
6:51 “Please Professor Gandalf,sir, I was wondering… what is a Horcrux?”
FRODO ASKED CALMLY!!!!
2:35 I remember in Return of the King there is one scene where the Sauron appears with physical body. It's when Aragorn used the Palantir to confront him, if you look inside you can see him holding his own Palantir.
I always assumed that wasn't necessarily Sauron taking physical form, but just him projecting himself unto Aragorn
That's the movie. It's not the book. The movie made up a lot of things
@@LKMNOP True, but the movies are the main subject at OP's timestamp
Ahhh I arrived in time just to see Melkor mar Arda with his song of Discord..
Robert your videos on both Tolkien’s works & George’s world of Ice & Fire have gotten me through the toughest of times in recent years.
I thank you🙏🏼😊
I was just up last night thinking about Gandalfs’ resurrection. And the more I thought about, the more I think that Gandalf for all intents and purposes dies, as much as a maia can.
I think that when Gandalf fights the Balrog, he fully expects to not come back, to ’die’. He’s done all that he could, and this is how far his help brought the people of middle earth. Now it’s up to them, and he can go and rest. It’s only Eru who sends him back. He doesn’t choose to reincarnate, he’s given the task to try again by Eru himself.
Assuming that Gandalf knew that he would be coming back and that Eru would basically give him retries until he wins, robs the story of all tension. I refuse to believe Tolkien would want us to view the story in that light.
Small nitpick:
Even if Gandalf did know that Eru would just keep sending him back, dying is still quite unpleasant.
So Gandalf would have plenty of incentive to not "Yolo" it.
Also, if he got too careless, there's a chance that right after he was killed, Orcs etc took his body.
And either cut it to pieces or ate it or whatever - preventing Gandalf from respawning in situ. And if he had to travel all the way from the halls of Mandos back to not just the Grey Havens but then on to Minas Tirith or whatever, he'd get there wayyyy too late.
And if he didn't get killed but knocked out, the Orcs could've bound him and carried him to Minas Morgul or whatever, keep him prisoner there, and/or torture him in Barad Dur itself.
So he needed to take things seriously and not get too cocky either way.
@@MrNicoJac I'd also like to nitpick that Eru likely did not send him back. The Silmarillion states that all the Ainur who chose to enter into Arda (and would become the Valar and Maiar) were making a choice to be bound to Arda until its end. Even if Gandalf WANTED to return to the Halls of Illuvitar, he cannot. But, as a Maiar, his physical form is something that can be worn or shed "as garments", so he likely could have returned of his own accord, given time. The exact amount of time is unclear, but Tolkien consistently describes the Ainur whose physical forms are destroyed as requiring some time to re-body themselves.
But I believe that Manwe and the other Valar "fast-tracked" him because letting him re-body himself would take too much time and removed some of the limits of his power as something like a promotion for his service and possibly because they recognized the need for someone with greater authority to be present at the climax of these events.
As for why he didn't "yolo" it, that's for the same reason he was there at all. He never WANTED this mission, but he did his job because his Valar (Varda) told him to go. And, as we see from the fate of the others Istari, Gandalf is the only one who seems to actually take his duty seriously and stick to it. Radagast gets distracted, the Blue Wizards lose the way and set up cults almost immediately, and Saruman suffers a similar fall some time later.
So I would say that, yes Gandalf did die as much as a Maiar can (without crazy shenanigans like Sauron pulled) and he probably DID believe that was the end of his role in all of it, but he still had plenty of reason to avoid that as best as he could.
@weezact7 pretty sure it's canon as per tolkien himself that it was eru who sent gandalf back
@@weezact7 No, Ilúvatar did send him back. The text in the Two Towers is pretty clear from its description that he did not go to Valinor or anywhere else in Arda when he died after slaying Durin's Bane. Tolkien also talks about this in greater detail in letter 156.
Completely agree on the point of Gandalf not wanting to take any risks about dying. Gandalf doesn't expect to come back, but still chooses to fight the Balrog, because there just is no other way out of that situation. If he doesn't make the sacrifice, the fellowship is doomed, and he knows it.
Great video, Robert! One piece of technical feedback. In the last couple of videos, I've noticed that there have been audio clips that seem to have the volume dip too soon, cutting off the last word. They're are a few such examples in this one, most notably at 9:24. Just something to keep an eye out for in future videos.
Ah, it wasn't just me. I had to try to guess and fill in a couple words along the way!
Love your stuff (and your voice), man ... keep on doin' it !
I like to imagine Aule stepping in personally to deny both of his once mighty disciples any chance of ever playing a part in anything evil.
Watching it from Valinor, he must have felt such disappointment, perhaps even embarrassment.
Both Sauron and Saruman were given a chance to repent, even quite late in their stories after having already done much evil, but they chose not to.. pride, lust for power were their undoing.
Maybe. Manwe's sphere (IIRC) is the wind/air and it was a wind yhag dispersed them
I get the feeling that those Maiar that remain loyal to Eru are in turn restored by him after death. Whilst those that turn to evil don’t get this benefit.
Since Gandalf is “a servant of the secret fire” when he dies after defeating the Balrog, Eru brings him back and even gives him a power up.
But Sauron, Saruman and the Balrogs receive no such benefits. If they are “killed” no respawns for them. I reckon their spirits get banished to the void where Morgoth lives or something.
I want to know what would happen if Radagast or the blue wizards died. Would they be restored like Gandalf or blown away like evil Maiar. Since they don’t quite stick to their mission but don’t turn to evil either.
I think the Maia who sided with morgoth get an even worse punishment. Thier spirits remain in the world, but are powerless to interact with it in any way. A fitting punishment for those who sought domination and control
Sauron was already evil and was killed twice before the ring was destroyed (when Numenor sank and in his duel against Elendil and Gil-Galad) and both times he was able to return on his own. The other evil Mayar must be able to recreate their bodies as well, just as Sauron did. If they didn’t return at some point, then either Tolkien simply didn’t care to think about, or perhaps they were so ashamed or repentant of their defeat that they didn’t dare to recreate physical bodies. In Sauron’s case, he was unable to return a third time simply because most of his power has been infused in the ring. Its destruction made Sauron powerless to be no more than a spirit that cannot be seen and cannot interact with the “real” world.
@@licmir3663 But that also means the reason Sauron was able to come back on his own may have been that great parts of him were stored on that ring which survived. Whereas, when Gandalf or Saruman died, all oh them went up in smoke. Through the One Ring Sauron become some kind of Lich and the ring his phylactery.
If you want a Christian theological analogy, it would be Tartarus, which of course comes from Greek mythology. Pretty shameful how much of this nonsense still survives to the present day in religions that worship books from 1900 (or less) years ago.
@@Puschit1 Which is pretty fitting since in The Hobbit, he was known as The Necromancer.
I've always understood the concept of Maiar and Valar losing power as a process of very slow but also very certain regeneration. Just like it is foretold that Melkor will once return from the darkness he was cast into, so should Sauron once he gathers strength again in his future followers. The New Shadow sequel would have definitely delved into that aspect imo, had Tolkien actually finished it
EDIT: Tolkien himself described The New Shadow as "too depressing to finish" and I believe this very thought of everlasting evil is what he was hinting at
Yeah, I think for some writers the idea that evil is never truly defeated and that humans always backslide into it again either due to complacency or greed doesn't sound like a great inspiring story. It sounds too much like actual world history with repeated mistakes making the sacrifices of a prior generation often pointless as here we are back again. Sometimes it is best just to let the story end nicely.
I agree that Sauron would likely have been a corrupting influence. Some poor soul would likely come across his vengeful spirt in some dark cave, forsaken ruin, or fetid swamp somewhere in the East, Far South, or maybe the pits of Utumno. For those familiar with the anime/manga Naruto I can kind of see him like a non-corporeal Madara Uchiha whose hatred and desire for order on his terms corrupted many either in service of his plans or making questionably moral choices to defeat those plans.
All those highs and downfalls surely lead somewhere.
Well, the way Tolkien wrote it, everlasting evil is baked into Middle Earth by the actions of Melkor in its beginning until it is eventually remade. There's simply no other way it could be. To tell The New Shadow would really be telling the same story again, but in a diminished world that has already lost so much from the previous age, which would be the most depressing part (at least to my mind). Even if the evil thing is eventually vanquished (again), the influence of Melkor remains throughout the world to seed corruption anew in another generation. And another. And another. Best to stop at a high point and leave the future alone.
It seems that Tolkien wanted to extend the universe he created, expanding it. But several developments of the story at the end of the third age seemingly drove him into the corner. It was becoming a burden, due to severe limitations put on the story development options.
The reason why often large cuts are made in order to free the story writers from many, if not most, limitations.
Probably, a clean cut would have been the best way, only referencing past events and characters, creating a completely new world. Maybe explained due to Eru changing, or improving the world again.
As it is said. Gods don't die, they are changing their names and appearances. Something like that could have given a lot more options. Including renewed magic abilities.
It's tough to be the creator of a whole genre, as many tricks only develop over time with new authors. Tolkien's shadow is vast, and even today authors aren't free from his influence. Tolkien transformed fairy tales and legends into modern fantasy. Not every author can claim something like that.
Thank you, Robert, for sharing your vast knowledge.
He didn't mention how they failed to destroy the last horcrux of Sauron!
He’s fine mate, just had breakfast with him, nice guy
Yeah, when he's sober
You wouldn't like him when he is is hungry, maybe Sauron just needed a Snickers bar or some lembas to be Annatar again
what murdaaas
The pancakes were delicious by the way!
I'm curious what he eats for breakfast, are we talking a fry up? Or his is he the type to have a coffee and get on with his day?
Very timely, for some reason I was just thinking of this the other day! I have also been wondering where and in what form he actually was during that period.
Yet the largest defeat Sauron faced was not the destruction of the ring, but his portrayal in Rings of Power.
The last time I was this early, the trees still shone brightly in the West.
So, never
The last time I was this early, Tom Bombadil was young and had a jacket that was not bright blue, boots that were not yellow, and no beard.
I heard afterwards he took a consultant position at Amazon 😉
The spirit lives on in the hearts of those that lust for power, wish misfortune on others, seek to dominate the weak. In this sense, Sauron will never be gone. His memory will remain. Though he may not be able to manifest physically, through the hearts and bodies of the wicked, great evil will still carry on.
We can see Sauron in the dictators and billionaires of today: Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Peter Thiel, Benjamin Netanyahu, Kim Jong Un, Vladimir Putin, Viktor Orban, and recently elected POTUS Donald Trump.
Just started watching your videos a few days ago. I've been binging your LOTR series and got here just in time for this one, answering one of my many questions
Great video, like always!!! Thank you so much, Robert!!!
What I love about this and other recent videos is how you take a known scenarios, like a pie, and then examine the logical extension of the pie like an extended crust. You put together a combination of what is known about the next extension and use either what we know. Of similar areas or with other extrapolations to form the basis of interpolating the most logical and Tolkienian based outcome or possibility.
You talk about pie and now I am hungry
You’re never gone until you’re forgotten. Someone like Sauron won’t be forgotten for a long, long time
Nah and this is why Aragorn genocide the last Orc populations.
But why the Haradrim and Rhunic peoples dont avenge their fallen Lord is weird.
You should do a video on Shadowfax
Thank you very much for your videos, I love them a lot.
I learn more about Tolkien's legendarium and that's great.
Also, you have a really soft and soothing voice, your narration is great and I only recently realized that there is no background music, that's how great I think your content is.
TLDR :
Great content, quality narration, no music needed
Excellent content every time over a range of fantastic sources.
Very interesting -- I cannot see if you have addressed Morgoth's demise and speculated on that in your playlist, but I would sure love to hear your thoughts on it.
Love your videos and your explanations. I picture something silmilar to what was left of Voldemort in Harry Potter after all the horcruxes were destroyed. So much of his soul was put into other objects that once they were gone all that was left was a disfigured, warped and pittiful being remained. No longer threatening, but to be pitied.
Again, thank you so much for all these videos ❤
I saw him a couple days ago at the IRS. Real nasty piece of work.
I’m guessing the implicit The New Shadow was that Sauron did return but without his form, but enough for those who had evil In their hearts to hear him. Not returned as Sauron can not really do anything, but enough of a whisper to get those with evil in their hearts to do evil in a more focused manner.
That's what I always imagined too. And I respectfully disagree with Tolkien - it had the potential of a fantastic story, but of course it's the author's decision in the end.
Does the audio get a lil funky for anyone else at 6:30? Dips in volume then comes back up a few times.
I think Saruman would be a more likely threat to reemerge than Sauron, though that would probably still take time. Probably more time than what had past for it to happen in the event that could've taken The new shadow at the very least. It would be interesting I think for him to return in a such a way. for out of the characters present in LotR main story, I think Saruman is the closest to a "grey" morality, as in he's not so far gone I think that coming back to the light isn't fully out of the question.
Ya without the ring and Sauron’s corrupting influence, it is possible
Thank you for all your hard work and generosity.
Love your work on Professor Tolkien's work.
I wonder, if in need of a new subject, if ASOIAF and/or Witcher ever run thin, might you look into other great works of fantasy literature?
If so, I should like to cast my vote for Malzan: Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson.
I am sure I am neither the first nor the last to make this suggestion, and I fully expect that if any new material should be taken on, it would much more likely be Mistborn or the like, but I personally have found Malazan to be far more satisfying to study than any other conventional work of fantasy literature, and I feel you and many of your fans would as well, especially if you were doing the work and not them. I of course already have and would love to hear your thoughts.
Thank you again, sir.
Word is he turned over a new leaf.
Runs a UA-cam channel that goes deep into the lore of Middle Earth. Answers the questions asked by geeks everywhere.
It’s probably just an urban legend.
This is likely the second most important topic, save for the will of Eru. Like someone in the comments said, the things of old can exist in an idea for a long time. I think you did good for such a short video.
Answer : no, but actually yes
I love the idea that unlike Morgoth in the Void, Sauron is still with us, but he has no power or influence to do anything, and he has to watch everything he built be torn down and destroyed, until all that remains is a distant memory. That has to be such a Hell for Sauron, and he deserves it so much since it's clear he doesn't want to be sorry for his actions. If Sauron were to somehow be visible to us, he would be laughably impotent, and he would deserve being laughed at.
Don't ever show this video to Disney. Ever.
Sauron as a single guy in fair form kicking it around Numenor should be the next LOTR series.
Ever been to Cleveland in the winter? It has the cold chill of Otumno and the perpetual darkness of Mordor. If I had to guess I would say that’s where his spirit ended up.
Great video as usual
...so, *yes, technically,* but not in a way that really matters. He can't threaten the world again. Do I have that right?
I wish your videos were 5-10 minutes longer. ❤ I watch LOTR content to fall asleep and just when it’s setting in I have to find another video. Love your channel!!
Given how many people today get the one ring inscription tattooed on them or wear his words in some way or another I'd say he's alive and well😅
There's an overlap with people in the early 2000s who got random Chinese characters tattooed on their back
@robertstevensii4018 those are just embarrassing 😂 most don't know what they actually say. At least the inscription in the one ring remained the same so no confusion
It's weird isn't it....
Seriously? Are they Goths?
@@brt5273 weird and misplaced, but to each their own
Plus, in “Rings of Power”, Sauron amazingly put on a wig.
Mad respect for including art credits at the end. Too many geekdom creators nowadays are using plagiarism software (AI) to make their images. Glad to see you're one of the few who still has integrity.
Dawg like half these are AI generated. Can easily tell and also who cares 😅
I hate AI as much as you but what makes them plagerism software?
Man this new age ludditism is ducking ridiculous 😅
@@collapsedlung_ because generative AI programs create their images by stealing from real artists and photographers, without their consent, credit, or compensation. When you steal from another artist, that's called plagiarism.
@@davorzdralo8000 It's not ludditism, jackass, AI is theft, pure and simple. It's also ruinously wasteful in terms of electrical waste, but hey, don't take my word for it, right? .
He became an idea, and Ideas are Bulletproof!
His spirit rested until millennia later when his 17th Century portrait was retrieved out of storage and restored in the one of the galleries of the Manhattan Museum of Art in NYC back in 1989.
The rest you know already…
😂
I always understood the description of how Saruman and Sauron were rejected by the Valar as being banished to an unintelligible whisper possible to be heard but never again understood, a fleeting shadow seen from the corner of your eye that vanishes when you look directly at it.
"He could no longer take a physical form or inflience events to any significant degree; he's now just a spirit of malice..."
But what if he embeds himself into the back of the head of a meek Gondorian lector?
Drinking unicorn blood and such.
It’s criminal we never saw 4:17 in the films.
Another great video Robert, you legend
Awesome channel, keep it up
@indeepgeek I have a question on a semi related topic. In the fellowship of the ring Gandalf faces the balrog and is drawn down into the depths of Moria when the Balrog falls and takes Gandalf with him. The narrative of later books tells that Gandalf fought and bested the Balrog but died, and was consequently resurrected and sent back. So here lies my question. Apart from the testimony of Gandalf, is there actually any evidence that Gandalf won? The lack of the balrog returning to Moria is not necessarily evidence that it was vanquished, after all the balrog was lurking in the depths of Moria for thousands (?) of years after Morgoth was defeated at the end of the first age. Its not implausible that it just decided to do it again. What actual evidence is there that Gandalf did not just make this narrative up?
Awesome question/theory! But I sadly have to dismiss it. The evidence is not particularly hard, I admit, but the best we have very much favors Gandalf's account.
Even disregarding Gandalf's own character, Eru brought him back to life and he was allowed to return to Valinor, the only of the Istari to do so. Clearly he was on the right side of both Eru and he Valar. The Valar specifically instructed him not to show off his power. Defeating a Balrog is already dangerously close to crossing that line. Lying that he did, though? If he was defeated, it would be more in line with his mission to admit as much.
Unrelated to this video but me and my dad like to discuss LOTR and he was rereading the end of the fellowship and something that Aragon said stood out to him he was talking about his plans for going to Mordor and said that if he had his way him Gimli Sam and Frodo would take the ring to be destroyed in Mt Doom. No Legolas on this journey. Your thoughts?
Nice Video :)
It's literally stated that he will just be a mind of sorts unable to interact with the world. A ghost if you will, unable to manifest.
I'd love for you to cover David Eddings. One of my favorite authors when i was growing up, and the Belgariad/Mallorean is incredibly developed
I like the word "Self-Incarnation"; I picked it up from Robert E. Howard's "The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian". You should incorporate REH and HP Lovecraft in your YT universe; to help others identify the shadow. "The man who knows, must Strike."
He scattered his soul into Horcruxes
But will Morgoth have a chance to ever return?
In the “end” he will then die after one last battle
Is Saruman able to take form again? And what would his inclination be?
Fragments of his spirit lived on in Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam. Going to Valinor was the only way to remove the fragments.
The balrog, Durin's Bane, is also a Maia, and therefore could also eventually return/remanifest.
"Dain! Get the shovel. It's the Bane again."
Hi Robert!
Although the West "blew his spirit away" after he died, I like to believe that Sauron was still free to return to Valinor to face judgement at any time. The only reason he didn't was his pride and fear.
What if the spirits of Saruman and Sauron united in the far off east, after being "blown away" by the breath of the Valar?
First, the answer is very clear in the books.
He does not die, he just can't reform a body in any foreseeable timeframes. Where it last took him millennia to reform a body, it would now take several ages. Possibly to the end of all time.
This is made harder by the fact the Valar blew him away, scattering his spirit further into the void.
BUT, as you point out (there was a follow up to the LotR) it is entirely possible that the effects of Sauron were not over and his evil influence would still be powerful as ever before, if not even more powerful.
Just like when a moist surface is hit by sunlight such that water is absorbed by the air and rises upwards into the skies, where all it takes is a single particle of dust for it to condense upon and form rain. Just like that, all it takes for the corruption to seed and grow in humankind is a tiny amount of evil which is allowed to grow out of proportions.
That evil permeating all of the known space and time (which is made up of Sauron's disembodied spirit) is enough to create new lords of evil and destruction.
Just like a small disagreement about a text in a book can lead to wars. A small bad deed can grow in denial of the fact into a truly evil being hellbent on destroying all.
Humans are naturally flawed in this way, no matter how perfect their world is, they will always find a way to corrupt it.
The short answer is "Yes, Ainur are eternal, period"
The only way that Sauron could return would be posessing someone. Which actually lore friendly (and Sauron had taught others how to do it) as he's a Houseless spirit now.
Which could be a cool fanfic idea if it wasn't already being used in one
Edit - it's Sauron's Power, not his Soul, in the One Ring. Souls are indivisible and indestructible in the Legendarium, as per Tolkien
Tolkien also compared Sauron to Melkor, who also lost his body, but is foreshadowed to return. He attributed this to a measure of wisdom Melkor owned that Sauron didn't (ironic, I think, since in most cases Sauron seemed wiser). Melkor could foster patience, recovering over the ages, putting off his vengeance. Whereas Sauron, as soon as he manifested any ability or any kind, would immediately waste it in malice, and be forced to start over.
All beings in the Tolkien legendarium are built of the Flame Imperishable (Gandalf speaks of it in Moria as the Secret Fire), which means they can't end by definition. But they move around. Evil beings get farther and farther away from other creation, falling into the Void.
Somehow Sauron returned... Next on rings of power
Excellent video. Btut Gandalf's lines about Sauron becoming a spirit of malice gnawing itself, etc, comes in "The Last Debate" in ROTK, not in the council of Elrond...
I always imagined him held in the Halls of Mandos, weakened, damaged and bound like Melkor in the first age, possibly not even in a physical form.
Having his dark form dispersed by the wind seems fitting given that Manwe was the master of "winds and airs".
What if a follower gave body abd mind to Sauron? Would that help?
I'm now listening to this post but from what I remember Sauron doesn't die but he's put so much of himself into the ring he is unable to shape/form again once the ring is destroyed.
Gimlis and Legolas Adventures past the Ring could make for a nice little spin-off.
Here’s an idea for a video. What if the three elven rings had not been made? Lothlorien and Rivendell were supported by the rings of Galadriel and Elrond, where would they have been had they not been borrowing Sauron’s power?
I assure you that Sauron is alive and well inside my clothes dryer, stealing my socks.
I guess the real question, if we take Gandalf as making an educated guess rather than 'Word of God' on the matter (no pun intended) is whether or not destroying the ring *destroyed* that power poured into it, or *released* that power. If destroyed, then Sauron could never again come back as a force of any power. If it was merely released, even if not released back to him, then Sauron may 'find it' again (if such is the kind of terminology one should use for a presumably non-spatial spiritual realm).
Any concrete word on whether the destruction of the ring destroyed the power, or released it?
An interesting premise, and one that I had never considered. I wonder if it would be possible for his spirit to be consolidated and remade using fell magics and blood sacrifices?
Gandalf does believe that that Sauron defeat is final. And I guess even if he is able to regain some of his strength, it will take thousands of years. With him gone for a good long spell at least the evil throne is vacant. It might be taken by Saruman. Unlike Sauron Saruman was "just killed", he was rejected from the West so evidently is destined to wander around Middle Earth. In Tolkien universe seems Maia can regain its strength with time (or quickly with Eru's help). So having nothing else to do it is only logical that with time he will be able to start restoration of an evil empire. And if Tolkien was thinking about a sequel and "old evil", I would think the Saruman to be that evil more likely than Sauron for who 200 hundred years is not too much time to restore if it is even possible.
We're really not given much information about what happens to a Maia when it is killed; we don't know where their spirits usually go. The two most prominent examples, Gandalf and Sauron, are exceptions as Gandalf is restored and sent back by Ilúvatar while Sauron's return is aided by his having put so much of his power into the One Ring until it is destroyed and Sauron is rendered powerless to return again. But what is the fate of Durin's Bane, other Balrogs, and any other Maia that might have perished in the battles and wars of Middle-Earth? We don't hear of any of them returning. Saruman's power had been broken by the time he died in The Shire so I don't think he was ever able to return again either.
I imagined that when he was defeated, Sauron became like an invisible fly: annoying but ultimately harmless. Being raised Catholic, I equated Sauron, Morgoth's chief lieutenant, to Beelzebub, Satan's right-hand man and the "lord of the flies." Also, I read Lord of the Flies around the same time that I first read Lord of the Rings, so it seemed kind of poetic to me.
It seems to me that you're right about Sauron's fate. That he was inflicted with a fate perhaps _worse_ than death, for he was weak, impotent, and spread far and wide, incapable of doing anything but observing.
Forced to watch as all his plans came crumbling down. Forced to _watch_ as all his enemies celebrated their triumph, and undo all his triumphs as they live happy lives (bar, sadly, Frodo).
Such a fate would be a terrible torture.
Tell us about this road trip!! The dynamic duo would surely have had a fun time!
I always thought that the Maiar needed the power of the Valar to manifest physical bodies in Middle Earth - they needed to be sent.
That Morgoth granted Sauron this power, as his emissary.
After Morgoth's displacement from Middle Earth, Sauron invested much of this power of incorporation into the one ring.
When the one ring was destroyed, and without the patronage of another Valar, Sauron's ability to incorporate was lost, and he remains forever a spirit.
Sauron is absolutely fine. I met him at a work thing over Christmas in a pub in Hackney. He looked well, he drunk a bit too much but I did too so I'm not judging. Unfortunately, he got a bit antsy and ended up buying some cheap speed from a guy (he thought it was coke) and things got a bit off the rails so I ducked out.
It's a good point
It is interesting, though, that the Ring, though separated from Sauron, apparently still succored him. As it's destruction damaged Sauron himself, miles away in his tower. 🤔
What happened to Sauron when his body perished during the doom of Numenor? Or rather, how did he re-take physical form? If at the end of the 1st Age, when Melkor was thrown into the void, the Valar told Sauron to come to Valinor for judgment, but he fled into Middle-Earth instead, why was he allowed by the Valar to pass back into Arda?
And 2nd question; was the ring with Sauron on Numenor? If so, what happened to it when his body perished?
Thanks.
Somewhere in Valinor....
Frodo: "Oh FFS"