Are diffusers best for audio?
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- There are many ways to acoustically treat a room but one of the best is called a diffuser. What are they and when should be used? Have a question you want to ask Paul? www.psaudio.com...
I am getting close to publishing my memoir! It's called 99% True and it is chock full of adventures, debauchery, struggles, heartwarming stories, triumphs and failures, great belly laughs, and a peek inside the high-end audio industry you've never known before.
I plan a few surprises for early adopters, so go to www.paulmcgowa... and add your name to the list of interested readers. There's an entire gallery of never before seen photos too.
Bless him, he has a passion for his job should be a teacher.
I find a good analogy is to think of a lamp aimed towards a wall. A flat untreated wall acoustically, is the equivalent of having a mirror on the wall, where at some position you will see a clear reflection of the lamp. An absorptive wall with an acoustic panel is the equivalent of a black velvet surface, where the light from the lamp is absorbed and you see nothing. A diffuser is the equivalent of a flat white wall where the energy is all reflected back towards you, but you don’t se an image of the lamp.
I think another one is FM multipath, a problem that plaques FM reception in urban areas. The functional difference is we need a certain amount if it to perceive our musical reproduction to sound natural whereas with the radio model less is always better.....in text books. I could cite an exception but I digressed...again.
@@InsideOfMyOwnMind I'm just glad you remembered Romper Room, you know how many decades I tried to figure that out. Finally I have the ability to show my kids what it was like in '65
@@SJMessinwithBoats1 Oddly I never saw them do a duck and cover drill.
@@InsideOfMyOwnMind gee I don't understand what you are referring to. But then you do have 10 years on me.
@@SJMessinwithBoats1 Duck and cover drills were done at schools and perhaps other places during the cold war, like it was going to do any good if SHTF.
i like how a company youtube channel is educative instead of just promoting their product
I love and own some PS Audio gear; but don’t be fooled: this channel absolutely promotes their own gear, and Paul is quite biased. He’s a consummate salesman. Enjoy the content, but don’t be fooled. They are launching their own speakers, so anything that doesn’t follow their design ethos, they don’t like.
@@Fluterra What do you think of your PSAudio gear?
@Dennis D. West, I own PS Audio equipment and I believe it is well designed and I enjoy it.
My 2-channel system isn't all PS Audio. I'm using a McIntosh amp. I believe Paul dislikes MickIntosh, as he calls them. Why else would you make-fun of a manufactures name? It's the only one I've heard him make-fun of.
I won't be buying their speakers when they come-out. Just not a fan of built-in power amp woofers or sub-woofers for a 2-channel system, maybe HT.
A close friend owned PS Audio equipment, so I was able to use and listen to it and make-up my own mind. With out the amount of brick and mortar stores there use to be it's hard to a 'audition' audio equipment these days.
As far as Paul 'selling' his equipment, I would absolutely expect it. Wouldn't you if your lively hood depended on it? Besides, everybody knows there's more than one audio manufacture out there.
Impartial ? Open-minded ? I fear not.
ua-cam.com/video/6rB2W0umdq0/v-deo.html
I get the reasons for not threatening the *livelihoods* of hundreds of people (thousands if you count the other cable manufacturers and their resellers), but the challenge has been issued without a single response. I like bling-bling cables as much as the next person - some of them are works of art (not to mention marketing..), but this has been the subject of untold forum debates for decades : someone needs to put it to bed.
Oh it does promote PS Audio products and PS Audio philosophy and the Cult of Paul - all of which it has every right to do as its their channel and Paul in particular puts a of time into it. And yet he does share a lot of knowledge and he does a stellar job condensing his decades of experience and considerable expertise into short, friendly videos. He's gotta know most people watching are never going to buy his product so its at least in part his way of giving back to the broader community and for that I can only commend and thank him.
You don't need to line the walls with diffusers, you just need to position them at the reflection points. A great way to do this is with a portable mirror: if you position yourself at your primary listening point and then have someone move the mirror against the wall until the speaker is visible in the mirror, you've found the Reflection Point and that's where your bookcase or hanging tapestry or diffusion panel or absorption panel needs to go.
@LD Blake nice comment!
This is true if you are limited on number of diffusers but sound will also come off the drivers in a bubble and hit other parts of the Wall. Before and after the first reflection point. You want to cover the walls, and the walls behind the speakers, with diffusers for largest postive impact
Love your videos, Paul! That said, I think you glossed over an important point regarding Radial Phase Grating (RPG) diffusors (yes it's spelled with an "o") by describing them as simply "fancy shmantzy". They're very specifically designed using genuine acoustic science, employing extremely complex quadratic residue equations, and every aspect from the depth and order of the channels to the width and spacing of the fins is optimized for maximum positive effect. RPG, the company, holds patents on this technology, and DIY lookalike diffusors, or bookshelves, are simply not the same thing.
Having been through some education on room treatment I do not understand the statement that one type of object is the end all best for room treatment. Diffusers, absorbers, bass traps, etc. all good, but not any one of them is "the best thing for room treatment". There is no magic bullet, one size fits all solution. One can't just stick diffusers in a room and call it done. It all depends on the room's need as to what is to be used to treat it. Some rooms need diffusers and some may not need diffusers, but rather something else instead. Just like one can over-treat a room, using the wrong items in the wrong way will bring unwanted results.
The best thing to do is experiment with what is on hand first and find the trouble spots. Then get with an acoustical engineer and go over things.
Sometimes some money can be saved by what is already in a room before going out and buying room treatment. Room treatment works and doesn't have to be super expensive if done correctly. More often than not you may only need a couple of pieces or maybe 3 or 4 at worst. People who want to sell you 12 piece kits or tell you that you need a ton of treatment don't know what they are talking about.
Paul you are right,...
Any Diffusetion is probably better than none,
people talking about specific frequinces is individual to each person's room and system..
Basically less echo is probably going to make the sound more discernable /understanderble...
Keep em coming Paul.
Regards Antony Warrington England..
Between 0:18 - 0:20 an input either in your wireless mic receiver or in your camera is overloaded.
I can tell that your room is treated well, because your voice sounds very natural. Your voice sounds like it is coming from my room.
Various books also have varying densities. Hard back, paper back, ring bound manuals, etc. I'm thinking of a bookshelf unit that has a rockwool cavity back covered in fabric (just an inch or two deep).
What about the different content of those books. You even might become wise :-))
Please don't suggest that bookcases are anywhere near as effective as a real diffuser. A book case will do some odd scattering but nothing compared to real diffusion. Those diffusers are very carefully calculated out. If you cover a single slat, the entire thing will stop working because it all works as a system with phase grating. It's not simply making the sound bounce off of a certain point.
Gerhard Westphalen it’s a good budget and wife friendly alternative.
thank you for that..... randomly arranged shelves without careful calculations doesn't work..
Totally agreed! And always start with absorption, diffusion is way more complicated and can be done wrong easily.
It's definitely harder to overly treat a room to the point of sounding dead. If your dealing with hard floors and natural reverb problems go with thick rugs or carpet. Build a diffuser that's of appropriate size for your room. The bigger the better. Buy some absorber sound panels. They really aren't that expensive. Just do a little at a time when you can. The small changes you make over time will add up and the room will improve. Most of the time it's hard to tell with just one or two upgrades. Treat your room and improve gear when you can. It's kinda like building a race car. All those little upgrades that didn't yield an obvious difference on their own will add up as a better overall package. It's a journey take your time and learn as much as you can. Try to have some fun along the way.
I will give Paul one thing . . . he is patient and diffuses aggressiveness with humor. I don't know if I would be so magnanimous in continuing to answer questions that are confrontational -- not to say that such questions may not be warranted . . . it just seems that both Paul and the UA-cam audience should constrain their interaction to the subject at hand rather than many of the tangents that come up along the way.
Speaking of diffusers . . . furniture, drapes, area rugs, al manner of angles in the room from accessories work for me.
This man’s like the bob ross of audio
Bookshelf + thrift store books = a fantastic diffuser. It also provides a conversation starter, as well as, something for the bored "tag along" to engage with to keep themselves occupied rather than fiddling with your gear.
But don't the books have usually hardback, which won't diffuse good?
@@awdadwadwad1723 You could use a mixture of both. I also think a shelf full of bric a brac should work.
Books, cloth upholstered sofas are good sound diffusers and absorbers. I rely on them all the time.
I've seen some claims that bookshelves don't work as a diffuser or absorber, but it seems to me that they could be either or both and can be tuned. There's a infinite variety of arrangements of soft and hard objects that will fit on a bookshelf.
yup.
Books are not diffusers. This was debunked like 100 years ago.
Audfile - Right. By the same guys who want to sell you the panels.
@@Enemji lol no. You'd know this if you actually owned some real ones.
Are used your bookshelf method in my work studio out of necessity for all the electronics books binders folders equipment in boxes of supplies from the front of the room to the back of the room it’s not pretty for some but it works excellent. before the shelves no music ever sound natural or good.
Would you recommend absorption behind speakers and diffusers elsewhere?
Great to see that you also mention books... I was on another site and the person talked about that idea as being not practical... and funny enough you have people like Reid Shippen who has 4 or 6 walls covered in books!
Thank you very much about your valuable teaching.
I agree that diffusion, when properly implemented, can significantly improve the experience. However, diffusers in this video are too narrow and will not diffuse low frequencies which will create an unbalanced result.
Frankly, I do not know how can someone be serious about acoustic treatment without addressing issues around low frequency. BTW, the seats in the video are too close to the wall for diffusion.
Also, while properly design bass traps do absorb reflected energy, they will actually raise the volume at the frequencies subject to a null (e.g. dip in volume due due to cancellation from reflected wave).
I'm not sure I think, a thin coaching of absorption material like natural wool fleece 3-mm thick that allows sound waves to pass through and bounce back is a more natural approach giving you that sense of Hall having the fleece at different distances to the wall with overlapping gaps and on the Ceiling in a wave using stick-on hooks and fishing line a little nail or dowel through the material going right behind the speakers in a natural Curve to the wall and about 2 to 3 feet in front of your speakers on the Ceiling. as I say this would be done in sections so there's a gap between the layers not just one piece so the sound can go in and bounce out giving it delay and even some gaps in between the layers 6" near the speakers working away getting bigger 8 feet away 12" hard surface they should be in sight of the tweeter only if a small range mid driver4" that can be partly included in the gap, make sure the tweeter is totally in the gap. in the front area of the speaker extending a couple of feet in front and 2- 3 feet behind nothing needs to be in place until the Sitting position what would be between 7 to 9' extending a couple of feet in front and a couple feet behind. In staggered layers strips. If you had wooden blocks you can drill holes split the Block put them in a straight line so wooden dowel can be rested for two provisions in the block so there's an overlap 3" gap between the two dowel positions and inch and a half from the wall should be fine. There's nothing permanent only the blocks what could be be stuck on with good quality tape pads or liquid nails
Great video, and a helpful follow-up to this could be where to place diffusers in a room aside from the normal first reflection point.
How high should diffusers and absorption be located? I see a lot of listening rooms with them mounted high or mid wall., with the lower 2 or 3 feet of wall untreated. Shouldn’t they be located lower towards the seating position and at ear level?
Use the mirror technique. You literally sit down and have a friend or whathaveyou hold a hand mirror (non magnifying) on the wall and move it around until you can see the drivers of the woofer/tweeter.
hunkeydoreyplayer that works for first reflection point, I was more interested in placement of treatments other than that
I think it may just sound better that way... I didn't have the chance yet to dive into acoustics practically, in real world, so it's just my speculation - a lot of reflections from higher wall height may go to the ceiling, so by diffusing or absorbing those specific reflections may make the room sound bigger, like an open space because then much less strong reflections from the ceiling will get to the listener, and those reflections will be diffused
noname good point, I always discount the effects of the ceiling
You want 50% of the diffuser higher than the drivers reflection point and 50% lower for optimum diffusion
Moving into a house with a large finished basement, so for the first time I have an opportunity to have a dedicated listening room. Right now the basement has a drop ceiling with old office style ceiling tiles. Any suggestions for what type of ceiling tile to buy? I am afraid of buying something that sounds very dead, and there is already carpet in the room. I think I need something to liven it up?
I also have a large finished basement with full carpeting. I have yet to hear a system that beats mine even for much higher sums of money. Why? Because of the large open area of the basement and the fact that it is carpeted and I have some sound treatment. this focus on rooms being too dead is not realistic. Unless you cover all your sheetrock w sound absorption panels I don't think you have to worry about that. Most rooms have the opposite problem and to much echo.
Focus more on treating the first reflection points on sidewalls and ceiling. And if you have your system in the center of the large basement then you won't even have much issue w side reflection points
Can you do a video on all the treatment in that room
I'm surprised all the baffles/slats are all the same angles, rather than say angled to force waves in. Do you place absorbing material at the backs of each of those "chambers" between the slats?
Can you put diffusers on the high part of the back wall if you mic is at the front of the room? OR do they have to go on the mid part of the back wall?
I can send you a truckload of books for your new studio/listening room! Moving soon from a house I have lived in for 35 years. Too many books to move to my next house.
Dead rooms remind me of being up in the alpine conditions of Colorado. Very little air to transport sound. Almost vacuous.
Paul why are you so awesome?
And what happen if instead of a diffuser you use absorbing material that have the same shape as this diffuser? Will some of the sound hitting the absorber be reflected without directional cues, doing the exact same thing as a diffuser while reducing the echo in the room?
Every day I learn something from you, sound is so fascinating , thanks.
If you want to hear how the music is recorded then you should have dampenig in the front of the room to take care of first reflections, then behind that line diffusers and other treatment can be placed.
Very strange that you don't think dampening is on of the most important thing, because the room is reflective the opposite is damping to get the room to disappear.
Only typical cable-audiophiles would want their front end of the room to be reflective/livefull because that's the only thing they have heard.
What else would they be used for?
Terrific teaching and explanation sir!
I watched another video on here thar showed books don't work. So confused right now :/
Was the video, you are talking about, made by people who make diffusers? Maybe they wanted you to buy their products? ;)
ed w Yes, maybe youre right, lol.
Dennis at AcousticFields has a great UA-cam channel all about room acoustics
great resource
Can we make the floor acoustically diffusing?
Are diffusers good if you have a small office with reverb and only do podcast recordings? I have seen some top podcasters with diffusers located behind them.
I think it's counterintuitive to audiophiles to want a compromise between an anechoic and echoic room. We want the optimum, which is a middle ground compromise. Hard to process.
Not the fact that the room is dead in a chamber. The difference is..the room is so insolated that you hear no sound from outside of the room also..because its so insulated you soon hear very low level sounds.
That was a great tip!! Thank you very much!!
*Me when I first seen a quadratic diffuser*
4:38
What are the soft-looking panels above the diffuser?Are those any good at absorbing unwanted sound?
Yes those would be absorbers against too much reflections. :)
Good video by Steve today. Shows how's its ok to be free in America.
Great Paul! Except I disagree that diffused sound is then ignored by your brain. Actually, the "noise" helps improve resolution. See Stochastic Resonance. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_resonance
How to keep those diffusers clean? Bugs and spiders will love all those niches! I don´t want to open a bug´s hotel in my living room.
Right on! I lit a fire under an apple 🍎 tree once. It was a real tall one. No harm done. The Spiders start coming down like it was raining. Every since then, I don't want trees around me.
Vacuum them once a week?
jast that you know diffuser also absorb some of the sound ... I love!!! what diffuosers can do to the sound
did he mentioned speaker wires that affect stereo width? Hope no.
Good tip thank you
Did you have a couple before that talk?
How are plants as diffusers?
Ooooh. I'd love to know this as well.
They don`t work as diffusers.
@@patrickschafstein5848 Of course they do but really hard to calculate:
how many plants?
Size of the leaves?
Usually they have dirt in the pot so also absorbs and diffuse
Imagine entering a empty room VS a room with 30 big plants near the walls, which one you think sounds better for recording a guitar
@@diegoaguirre8075 Sorry man, they don't, the vase does but not the plants.
@@patrickschafstein5848 sorry man, they do. All living things do. It is going to depend on the plants. Coniferous trees are going to be quite effective. A single bamboo stalk, not so much.
Well I’m sorry I have to disagree with your explanation of reflections. Reflections are good they just need to be controlled reflections. You want a 1 to 1.5 millisecond delay time. Echos need to be addressed and they happen when you have parallel surfaces common to most sound room. But before any acoustical treatment I recommend you perfect speaker placement. You CANNOT position speakers with acoustical treatment in the room at time of tuning. In fact you will find that when speaker position is correct both for the best bass response you will notice you hear less if not no room reflection issues. Then when you have speaker placement perfected you can logically and strategically place the right acoustical treatment. Defusion is best because it does not absorb sound but scatters sound waves that are reflected back to the parallel surface adjacent to that surface. Some slight and light absorption material might help only on the back wall behind the listener. But this material must be light as to not absorb but more to delay the sound waves. The issue with absorption is it’s not linear it creates comb filtering issues which make it worse. Meaning it will absorb at certain frequency’s and reflect at others. So very careful care must be taken when using any absorption material. Use your voice as a tool so it sounds natural and has good articulation. There is much poor and wrong advice on acoustics and Paul gets it right when he says you want a room that sounds natural and has good controlled reflections
Did you ever pull one of those books down and read it?
I love reading almost as much as I enjoy listening to music, but, as with all things, there can be a huge variance in quality. While their are recordings and books that I go to time and time again, some books aren't worth the paper they're printed on and are unreadable. Perhaps you've found their purpose: sound diffusion.
LP's are pretty good at doing that.
Who knew there were so many experts
9 guys were at it again
lmao........"Sound comes back from the diffuser (if any), ears go, I don't know what that is". Hilariously true.
Gimme some of that 'confusers'.
Aaaaaahhhhhh! My EARS! THE CLIPPING! For crying out loud, put a compressor on that mic! 🙀
Not sure what you're talking about. There's no clipping and the speech is pretty quiet. Can you be more explicit?
PS Audio - it’s at 21 seconds in; when you say ‘I’m wounded’ - the levels take an excursion right into the red zone.
@@darkwinter6028 Oh goodness, you're right. Sorry about that. I'll try harder. I really don't like compressors but I also don't like blowing people's ears out. Thanks for catching that.
Dark Winter Chill out, It’s a quick UA-cam video most likely done in his very limited spare time. Think we can let him off considering he takes the time to do these free videos for us and runs a company’s the same time.
darren lynes - eh; it’s an audiophile channel... which ironically wound up clipping. Some mild hyperbole is warranted. 😉
Books okay, but records are probably better. :^) _Decent_ books and a proper bookshelf are probably going to be more expensive than proper diffusers, though. Just pay the guys?
My question would then be: Why not kill every reflection and simulate the diffused reverberations in post with a good vst plugin?
In a live show..you hear the room as well as the front speakers..the room lets you know the size of the room and the audience..IM not agreeing that diffusers are the answer. Matter of fact . ILL BOLDLY STATE ITS WRONG..but theyre stuck..they are forced into telling this fib..and if I tell the answer. Soon theyll be doing it and ill be just as broke and old and concidered.. ignorant..but i assure you..theres a better way than destroying information..
Please accept the Ethan Winer debate invitation!
💪💪💪💪💪🙏
Cheap to build. But expensive to buy, that's why nobody has them, or they dont have enough, or the wrong kind.
What about the Oval Office? Hmmmmm.
Echo flutter is a nasty bitch. Diffusers are incredibly necessary .
I recommend the prime acoustics London 10 panel kit for whomever needs room treatment. You'll treat your live end and dead end extremely well.
You know getting married is a bad idea when "marital harmony" is disrupted because of the introduction of diffusers.
I'm happily married and my home studio is full of acoustic treatment. It's all about choosing the right partner, and more so constant and healthy communication.
Wow, Paul! Your mic-level is still WAY too hot. Lots of CLIPPING! Give yourself some headroom. We're not in fighting in the Loudness Wars, here!
The clarity in his voice sounds great though.
Imagine having a channel about audio and being normalized at -2.7dB in UA-cam. (stats for nerds)