Really thankful to have access to even a small portion of his considerable knowledge. Along with a cave diving channel I found this year, Paul's channel is definitely the most educational and enjoyable content I've came across. I think he found his calling.
Good imaging is something I appreciate and something I put effort towards achieving. It's my favorite thing about a good sound system. Being able to hear the musicians solidly located in space, being able to "feel" exactly where each one is, is a magical experience. If you haven't heard a system that images well, I strongly encourage you to experiment with your own system, or seek out and listen to one that is well set up. A big revelation for me happened when I was moving into a new apartment in the 1970s. I was not yet an audiophile. To take a break from unpacking and to see what kind of FM reception I could get in this new location, I put my bookshelf speakers on top of boxes, about five or six feet apart and in the middle of the room, hooked them up to my receiver (attaching my dipole antenna made from speaker wire), and found a jazz station. I was startled; before that moment, I wasn't aware of imaging, even as a concept. I thought all there was to stereo was a vague, left, center, right arrangement of voices and instruments. Suddenly, I heard the instruments floating in the room and was amazed and curious about what was going on. This got me on the road to being seriously interested in music reproduction, and I eventually started reading audio magazines, visiting audio stores, and talking to people about sound systems (and in doing so, I learned how many nice systems are set up really badly). I have my current system set up so that I have a dedicated two-channel system that shares the front speakers with a five-channel home theater system. (When I got a home theater system, I added three speakers, an AV preamp and a 3-channel power amp, but kept my original stereo setup intact for music listening.) So, I have a center speaker, even though its amp isn't turned on for stereo listening. As a demonstration of stereo imaging, I've commented to a guest how clearly we can hear the singer on the center speaker, had them agree, then told them that the center speaker isn't actually on. My guest will usually go stick their ear up to the center speaker to confirm, and are amazed at how just the stereo pair can create the illusion of that centered voice, floating in space. I feel that a good home theater system needs a good L+R stereo setup as its foundation; the center and surrounds are just enhancements. It's broken my heart to help friends set up pretty nice systems, but have them cruelly compromise sound quality in favor of room design. In the setups I've had, and that I've helped other people set up, I've usually found that having the stereo speakers and listener in something close to an equilateral triangle is a good starting point. Much of the time it works best to point the speakers slightly towards the listening position, but this varies a lot with different speakers; some sound best pointed exactly straight. Like Paul says in this video, it usually helps to keep the speakers out from the wall, if possible. As Paul also mentions, don't forget to experiment with the listening position; you don't necessarily want to sit with your couch or chair jammed against the wall, either. It pays to experiment, scooting the speakers around, trying different distances between speakers, distances to the listener, distances from the wall, angling the speakers towards the listening position. Sometimes a very small change will yield a surprising improvement. I've also discovered over the years that it is usually better to have your speakers on one of the longer walls of the room. Most people seem to do the opposite, perhaps to get more distance from the speakers. My only guess is that this lessens early reflections from the sides of the room. Your mileage may vary, but it's something to experiment with. After writing the above, I just saw another video where Paul answers the same question, but gives additional details, including speaker toe-in: ua-cam.com/video/vBfBAMR8zHU/v-deo.html
This microphone explanation explains what I'm hearing. I can totally visualize where the speakers should be without measuring stuff. This is an a-ha moment for me. Thank You for the simple and easy to understand explanation.
Love how You start to answer...rethink...change Perspective..think again and what comes out is pure Knowledge Transfer in the most relaxed but thus precise way. Thank You
Posting this on Sunday 8/9/2020 at 1:45 am. So after watching this I literally just repositioned my speakers (further away from the front wall) and WOW! WHAT A DIFFERENCE! Almost sound like I have new speakers. The details and overall balance are significantly better! As usual Good stuff here Paul👍🏽
I cannot say Thank You enough, for the 'perfect' sound I am now able to enjoy, using your DSD Dac. That was the constant constraint I dealt with in getting my stereo to sound wonderful. Now, with the DSD Dac, I am completely satisfied. My journey is now complete, and I am able to simply Listen and enjoy. Thank you, and Ted Smith.
Very captivating and quite interesting video. With speaker placement most of us are stuck with the "hand we're dealt" as far as room placement/dimensions go. I have rather smallish speakers (Ohm L) on either side of an archway seven feet up and horizontally placed about nine feet apart in my 1,700+ cu/ft living room. I can stand between the speakers and behind them. Sound is spacious regardless of listening position and works for me. Most importantly, it works for my wife.
Well Said Paul. Your Absolutely correct. Speaker placement is everything !. It is both art and science when it comes to speaker placement. It takes much patience to setup speakers correctly. Most people dont understand the importance of speaker placement, and how to achieve good speaker placement. Also not only does speaker placement effect soundstaging, it also effects tonal balance and bass response. So your not only trying to achieve great soundstaging, you also want to tune ( with speaker placement ) the bass response and overall tonal balance.
Wow!!!! This video changed my life. Thank you so much Paul. Long story short.... I got hearing aids. Wow that's better. I can hear! So, 8 months later i have completely revamped my entire surround sound set up. And I realized I loved music more than I do movies... Hmmmm. Enter Pauls video. All I can say I Holy Cow I had no idea music could possibly sound this good. Once I pulled the speakers off the wall about 4 ft. it sounded pretty good. I ran a few tests with REW and played with the crossover slopes and such, re-aligned the subs to mains. That's when the magic happened. When Paul suggested the sound comes from behind the speaker I didn't completely understand. Trust me, I know now! for those of you who have never experienced this I'll try to explain what it sound like for you. As I sit in my living room and listen to music I have to admit that I can't hear any of the 7.2.4 speakers. I can no longer pinpoint where the sound is created because the room is creating the sound. Yes, the room creates the sound. I no longer hear the speakers. Yes, when I open my eyes I can feel/ sense the sound is coming from behind the speakers. Essentially the entire back wall seems to be about 20 feet farther back than it actually is. And because of the atmos speakers the heighth in the room seem to have doubled. Music that used to sound pretty good now sounds like it's actually being played in my room. You can feel the pressure change as the musician sways his sax from side to side. I got up last night and walked around the room to see what changes I experienced. Like Paul says, It's supposed to reproduce what was played live. And wow does it. Even when I walked behind the speakers it sounded unlike anything I've heard before. I just watched this video again and I'm going to pull the speakers another 2 feet from the wall. Yeah, my wife is that awesome.
Instead of buying taller stool for my speaker I followed one of your advice by putting cd case below front of speaker, just to enough making little angle to the speaker. Then room comes alive with the same vokume. Thanks Paul
I recently moved and my speakers went from being 18” from the wall to 24” and I can’t agree more on the benefits. It has really added that sense of depth (soundstage). It has also helped a lot with imaging. However because my speakers are fairly low-end (Klipsch R-51M), the imaging is still not quite there.
For many of us, its just not reasonable or do-able to have a "listening room", for some we have to make our office/gaming desk our main spot for music enjoyment, or our home theatre does double duty for music time....how do you mitigate if you have to place the speakers near a wall? For me, I found putting my bookshelf speakers on small stands raised above the desktop and even just pulling them 8" away from the wall helped tremendously (as opposed to sitting on a shelf right against the wall...)
This reminds me of a tip I got about subwoofer placement. Put the sub where you gonna sit and then crawl around in the room until you can hear the best bass, .. that's where the sub should be
Hi Paul, very interesting explanation. I would like to ask about surround sound from stereo set up. I had some cheap speakers from KEF and could hear the sound round my head. Now I've got some more expensive and bigger speakers from Monitor Audio which generally sound better but there is no 3D sound. Is it either a room size, set up or stereo shouldn't sound in 3D ?
The largest part of your system's "sound potential" rests in it's speakers quality, appropriate size application, and placement. A guitar amplifier can totally change personality and sound with "just" a speaker change. The speaker is almost everything.
yes and no, for mixing and monitoring i'd say that the speakers reach their max potential ONLY ONCE the room has been treated. and it doesn't have to be anything fancy. i fail to realize how and why the majority of studio photos i see have placed most of their proverbial eggs in the rear wall... the front wall is where all the magic happens and it is of paramount importance that one places the MOST absorption material in the FRONT wall and positions monitors roughly 1.5 meters (5 feet) away from the TREATED wall (meaning 5 feet away from front concrete or drywall, but only about 2 feet from the absorption material... the bass energy (frequencies) will pierce right through that thick absorption layer and still reflect off the front wall, but in a much less pervasive way... so, yes speakers need to breath, but if you simply follow the advice of our esteemed host Paul sans treating front wall, you'll still get slap-back and instead of airy sound image you'll get audible and/or inaudible distortion
@@2112res ideally, yes, if your room is long enough, but 2 feet at least is a must, unless you invest in fancy (i.e. expensive) material which might provide superior absorption with only one foot thickness. I used a mattress and thick blankets in the front wall for a total of 3 feet worth of thickness - granted my room was uncharacteristically long and rectangular - but this layer smothered the bass sufficiently without harming any midrange frequencies. in the back wall i had two bass traps in the corners (i actually had bass traps in all four corners of the room) and only a diffuser in the middle portion of the back wall and the results were outstanding (professional sound engineer thought the tracks had been mixed in a high end studio when he heard them, no word of a lie !)
@@motafov Such thickness sounds a bit nuts, but I have heard it just one other time. It's worth investigating! BUT in your original post you state that bass will be piercing and reflecting, and here you are saying bass gets smothered. Leaves me a bit baffled. \8
@@2112res in original post i said bass will pierce because its so powerful and that the suggested thickness will tame it, meaning that without such "overkill" in the front area, the speakers will/would not reach their potential; in other words, the more you can place there, the better the results, keeping in mind the length of the room of course, you DON'T want to end up in a listening position thats smack center in the room...main point simply being that too many folks neglect the front wall, worse still they mix in front of a window (yikes!) OR with their speakers practically touching the front wall...Conduct an experiment, place a shit load of absorbing material in the front and see the drastic difference for yourself (ignore aesthetics for this experiment) and let me know what happens :)
I agree with Paul, but wish to add onto this. There are other factors involved by way of recording technology and speaker technology. For the example of speaker technology, I have the DCM Timeframe 600s. They have two soft dome tweeters on either side of the speaker pointed in a 45 degree angle behind the speaker. This creates a bridge of sound from one speaker to the other. This creates a fantastic sound stage . One of the great tricks is to show people your entire surround setup with all the speakers. Then play a music track in stereo. Then ask them which speakers were working. You watch them point to the center, the rears, and so on only to trick them and say it was just the two floor standing speakers. So, technology/engineering created that scenario. The other is recording. There are two recording technologies that can force a speaker to provide amazing imagining. Q-Sound and Roland Sound Space. The later is one of the most amazing. It can take a sound and make it travel in any direction within the sound space, even forwards and backwards, with just two standard speakers.
Good imaging can be helped by point source sound so the vowels and consonants are coming from the same point (unlike most speakers) and by a decent high frequency response. If it's muffly there is no image and if treble is too pronounced and hissy on the top end there is also no image. But if the treble response it balanced just right you will get the best image. But the treble has to go right up to 20 khz (without too much or not enough intensity). It's a knife edge in treble intensity to get the really best image. Play with the treble control, moving it in "thousandths of an inch" increments to get the best image. I usually run my speakers flat but I experiment with the tone controls too sometimes for research. And before I finalize my speakers I play with the treble control and then adjust the tweeter level with small resistances until I get the best image and treble sound (ran flat). It's amazing what difference just a half ohm makes in tweeter level (and to the image).
Want phenomenal imaging without having to pull your speakers out like Paul describes then research Ohm Acoustics Walsh series speakers they are the best imaging speakers with reach out and touch it realism and great sound in general.
Speaker placement is the single most important aspect of getting good sound and good imaging. Placement of speakers dictates overall tonal balance, bass response, midrange, and treble. Then once you have found the ideal speaker placement ( which takes time to achieve ) you are likely going to get good imaging. The 1/3 rule does work and work well. Now some will say that will not work in their situation. Well you can either make marks on the floor where the speakers sound there best and then move them to a more practical position when not doing any serious listening. You can then place them on your marks when you want to do some more critical listening. Or you can try 1/5 the distance. You will likely compromise depth of image and openness but you might be able to get reasonably good tonal balance. You can have the best speakers and equipment but if you dont play with positioning away from the front wall, you will never get good tonal balance or imaging.
What worked for me: I chose a simple music, where there is 1 singer, and just a couple of instruments. The distance from the side walls is good, when you see the singer in front of you and you can place the instruments horizontally. Imagine this process like when you're using binoculars. After this, you can play as much as you want with the depth depending on your circumstances. In my case, it was the creation of the bass. I only used a 2.0 setup, so I moved the speakers from the front wall as much as it made the bass lovely. The result was, that I didn't need a 5.1+ system, and I don't want in the future. Speakers: Pioneer S-A4SPT-PM Pure Malt Speakers - frequency matched amp: Pioneer A-20 The room: basically empty, clean, with carpet: 19'x15' ceiling: 8' I just loved how they sounded. I watched the new - at the time - Mad Max movie on them with awe. The amount of rumble was wow, and I felt I am in the movie.
There are many factors to get the best imaging as Paul mention in this video. But I would say that to get the best imaging firstly the speakers have to have a great phase integration between drivers. That is the key to get the so call "3d image". You should hear one point of sound source. You should not hear tweeter here, midrange there and so on. The next step is to have a proper placement of the speakers in your room. The sounds we hear in a room is not only generated by the speakers but from reflexions as well. Avoiding standing waves and resonances will help you get a clean sound without reflexions. Distance between speakers as well as distance to sitting position is also key to get it correctly. Important in this point is to know the recommendations from the speaker manufacturer. One common problem I see in many rooms is that people tend to have the speakers on axis to the listening position. This setup usually narrows soundstage and plays against proper imaging in most cases. I would recommend to start with the speakers without toe in, and slowly start to toe them in thill you are happy with the soundstage. With a proper design loudspeaker you'll be able to get depth, space, air, all of those words we like to hear to describe a 3d image from a stereo setup.
"But I would say that to get the best imaging firstly the speakers have to have a great phase integration between drivers." I was working with full range (FR) drivers and doing stuff to get extra khz from them for phase aligned sound, and now I have finally done it and have made the best pair of speakers I have ever made. I used a 3" FR driver and drilled a hole through it (a major task) and used another micro FR driver (stripped of it's cone) and I glued a thin stick to the voice cole tube of the micro FR driver and poked the stick through the hole in the 3" FR driver and glued the modified micro FR driver to the back of the 3" FR driver (while carefully lining up the stick in the hole). On the other end Of the stick (which is now at the speaker front) I glued a tiny foil "whizzer" and it's in phase with the 3" FR cone (stick is just the right length). It gives the FR driver more khz and sounds way different to most $10 FR drivers (way more top end "sting"). And the metal foil whizzer (1/4" big) makes the cymbals sound metallic and the ride cymbal really happens (unlike with normal $10 RF drivers). Mine cost $5 each and $3 for the mico ones. Amazing "3D effect". I call it the the "headphones effect". I built them with the boxes along with extra 6" woofers.
Essentially you're talking about an artificial phenomenon that can be amazingly euphonious if you're lucky and yes, there is a sweet spot to be found that always sounds (but rarely looks) better. If you're married or living with a woman primarily concerned with visual aesthetics and not perceived sound quality that can prove to be something of a contentious issue involving some serious negotiating, negotiating which you're likely to lose unfortunately. A little tip here. Most people orient their listening rooms in landscape mode with the speakers and couches set against the longer walls. From a listening perspective this is wrong on two counts, because it is limiting on couch and speaker placement and because it also tends to exacerbate flutter echo phenomena where the walls are parallel (which they generally are). The couch and speakers should thus be placed in front of the shortest walls. This will give you more room to tweak your speaker and couch's positions relative to the walls behind them and will always create a way better sense of depth and clear up (but not totally eliminate) that annoying flutter echo. The 'imaging' Paul is referring to is as a result of rear sound radiation (generally diffracted) reflecting off the wall behind the speakers. The distance between the speakers and wall governs the delay in milliseconds between reflected and direct radiated sound. The human brain, used to calculating perceived distances by processing such time delays, does the rest. It could be called pyschoacoustic, because in essence it creates processed errors in the brain that sound nice. The same phenomena (but in reverse) applies to situating your seating area away from the listening wall. In this case the forward radiated sound from the speakers and the delayed radiated sound from the wall behind the speakers bounces back off that wall and reaches the listener's ear at a time determined by the distance between couch and wall and further fools the brain into imagining non-existent (and definitely not recorded) distances. There is no magic involved, but in this much I agree with Paul. It can seem like it when listening, especially if the walls are treated to diffract sound and in the end that which makes your sound nicer is nicer. It's you that's listening after all.
Your words in this video are very much what I've been saying for years, actually decades. With the custom speakers I use, some rooms just fell into place, as to where I thought the speakers should go. Other rooms, I was constantly moving the speakers around, until I finally found their proper location within those pita rooms. Ive known people who spent 10s of $1000 on speakers and never got their monies worth, cos they refused to pull the speakers away from all the walls. Space to the sides is needed for width of stage. Space behind the speakers will produce the depth. Height, layered complexity (as I like to call it) and imaging are mostly the speakers, with help from the right amps for those speakers. I am one of those people who have yet to be shown in practice, that cables matter much at all.
Thank you very much for your explanations which I totally agree with. By experimenting with multiple loudspeaker placements myself, I have come to the same conclusions as yours. ❤😂❤
Hello from Muncie,Indiana Paul, i've been a music fanatic all of my short 50 years and have slowly tried to purchase better and better hi-fi equipment throughout my life striving for better sound and musical experience based on what i am able to afford-like most folks and even though i can't afford $5000+ dollar speakers and seperates,i still consider myself an audiophile since i started actually "listening" to music and soundstage in my late teens. i stumbled onto your "ask Paul' vids recently and totally enjoy them beyond what words can express!! it's a true passion for me and i love learning more and more everyday about all aspects of sound reproduction and experience. i;ve always been a big fan of the Polk Audio Monitor series from the 80's and have several Monitor models from the 80's in my collection and although they audiophile quality like PS Audio products they are a favorite from my childhood when i first dove into hi-fi. i wanted to know your thoughts and maybe more of the science behind "stereo dimensional array" and your opinions and any experience you may have or had of it. a vid on the subject would be SO great. i have a Sprout and totally love it!! and hope to expand more into the total PS line of products someday when able. respectfully,jerry
It seems like imaging would also depend on the choices made by the recording and mixing engineers and, to a lesser extent, the mastering engineer. Mic placement, stereo panning, widening, mid/side choices, reverb and other time effects.
Thats a great idea Sit in a comfy chair in your closet with closet door open & aim speaker towards closet. If your wife comes looking for you to nag or check on Honey do list....close the closet door.
I can't even begin to achieve the necessary spacing in my very small listening room. However, I can still achieve a fairly rudimentary imaging effect, whilst eschewing the recommended distancing. My seated distance from the speakers has to be less than one speaker from the other and because I'm very deaf in my right ear, I have to increase the balance bias in favour of the speaker nearest that ear. It's a frustrating and difficult procedure, but eventually I seem to get the balance correct and create a small and rather shallow sound stage. It's clearly far from ideal, but I can still get pleasure from the sound itself if not always its shape, dynamic and sense of presence. My only consolation is in knowing that however much I'm tempted by all the brilliant, expensive and acoustic miracles at the high end of the market, with my hearing, it wouldn't make the slightest audio difference to my listening pleasure, so better to stick with what I've got! (and in any case, I couldn't afford it)
The thing that affects imaging the most is the acoustic space not so much the speaker placement. Speakers being close to a wall doesn't really do much to imaging because then you have to explain why expensive studios have in-wall mounted monitors. Distance to a front wall affects bass response primarily but the other reflections happening on the side walls and ceiling will affect the imaging much more.
SoundWave Trax your analogy is completely useless because studios DON'T GIVE A CRAP about imaging. They don't look for it, they don't listen to it, nor do they master and/or cut music for it.
The rule of thirds is an excellent starting point along with judicious toe-in or wall mounted diffusion panels to minimize first reflections, especially in a narrow room. However for my ears the "coherence" of the speaker is equally if not more important for excellent imaging. Coherence within a speaker means that the drivers are well integrated with each other- e.g. woofer, midrange, tweeter etc such that the sound throughout the frequency range appears to be coming from a single source and not bouncing between the individual drivers. In an ideal room a speaker with poor coherence between the drivers will lead to image wander and ultimately frustration for the listener. Some speakers do this well, others do not. Careful auditioning is the key to finding speakers with excellent driver coherence.
Funny story: when I went on "walkabout" in the very early 90s as a young lad, I had to sell my hifi and also leave behind all of my hifi buddies I met when I was briefly in the business of selling high end audio. I was so desperate to play with hifi equipment that one day I resorted to messing with a CD boom box a buddy who I was staying with had in the middle of a room and tweaking it until I actually got a decent "micro soundstage" out of it. It's speakers were, oh, about 18" or so apart and I had it sitting on a milk crate with me sitting cross legged about three feet away. I almost ruined my back listening to different CDs. It was the best I had to play with and I laugh at what impractical lengths I went to to make it just a little better.
I read once that the best image (i.e. perfect 3D soundstage) you will get in anechoic room and the worst in a reverberant room This was an extremization clearly But what i got is that room reflections are in the end the worst enemy of a great soundstage. When you block reflections from a wall the wall will disappear sonically speaking. Amazing sensation indeed. And also outdoor you will get a great sound stage ... but there will be ambient noise of course.
Over 40 years ago I found one or two of the answers to this. First there is a way to mathematically calculate if your speakers focus or uniformly disperse the entire frequency range, low bass to high table, if you know the diameter of the various speakers (15 inch bass up to 1 inch treble or less) and compare that to the frequency of the crossovers. Second there are specific ratios of the room the sound was recorded in and the one it is played back into.
Personally, always had to have 3-channel system with an easily adjustable amp. First system was a Dyanco/(Electrostatic, no longer recall brand) system. Last was a McIntosh/Bozak system. In every case, listeners either wanted more details about the system, or wanted to buy the system. Learning how to quickly adjust the center fill amp takes patience, but is well worth the effort once learned. Next will be ?/Klipschorns, center fill unknown as yet.
Just adding to the information that Paul already stated. He forgot to mention pulling the speakers away from the side walls and trying to position them symmetrically. The listening position ideally would be along the centerline of the room and speakers. Getting better imaging has to do with equal path lengths between the listening position and the speakers as well as having similar room reflections on both sides. ( as opposed to one open space on one side and wall on other) Also having the speaker wire runs equal lengths is the most important to attaining better imaging and focus. Symmetry is the key here. Measuring and placing the speakers to the nearest 1/16" form the listening position, side walls, and front walls can dramatically improve the listening experience.
@@2112res Head movement is not as critical because it all comes down to getting the arrival times at the listening position of the sound waves to coincide. One this magic happens, the music sounds correct from anywhere in the room. Yes, the imaging changes with regards to head movement but tonality and other qualities of the reproduction come into play. Hard to explain with words.....easier to demonstrate in person.
Polk SRS SDA 1s has the best sound stage and imaging I've ever hear. My room is 22x30 12 in. From the front wall, 8 ft. From the back wall and 30 in from the side walls. You can locate everyone in the band depending on the recording mix which is very important.
Agree that the SFO Tilson-Thomas Mahlers are exceptional in soundstaging! A too-little acknowledged factor of good imaging is a very close match between left and right speakers in both time and frequency domains, a result of close manufacturing tolerances or "hand"-matching of drivers. Left-right localization of an individual sound source depends on the relative amplitude and/or signal arrival time. If L&R speakers don't match closely, there can be a zone of confusion created as different frequencies "argue" with your brain over localization, resulting in smearing, very similar to the "circle of confusion" of an out-of-focus camera lens as different areas of the lens disagree on the spatial location of a subject element at the film plane. Similarly, fore-aft localization is largely dependent on frequency content and relative amplitude as air attenuates frequencies selectively with distance, giving a trained brain clues to distance. Relative arrival times are also important. Here again, disagreement between left and right speakers can confuse the ear and brain, as can nonlinear frequency response, causing perceived fore-aft smearing. Listening to precisely-imaging speakers is a joy as the elements of the music stand out in clear relief and the structure of the arrangement and performance becomes clearly apparent.
I get that this is an older video, but what I never understood is that if I have, say, a 9m wide room and I put my speakers 1/3 of way across then I get a 3m 1/4 wavelength between the speaker and the reflective wall - that's an 12m wavelength at 180 degrees out of phase, for around 29 Hz, which is prime to toast the bottom octave . If the room is smaller, say 6m, that's around 43Hz, put the speakers 1 m out and you get 86Hz, at which point you may as well go and buy a set of earbuds. Soffit mounted speakers sound great (OK, they tend to be in studios with a set of big old Brystons behind them) but putting speakers right against the wall will push the canceling frequencies high enough that acoustic absorbers can fix the problem. Sure, we get 1/2 space boundary shelves, but they are dead easy to eq out, vs trying to fix cancellations. For anyone with a room less than big enough to get 4-5m behind the speakers, isn't it a better option to stick them as close to the front wall as possible with a block of glass fibre insulation behind them?
I have a small room (with too much stuff in it) and its impossible to set my speakers optimally from the walls. It's the main reason i haven't upgraded any of my components since it would go to waste without proper speaker placement. As a result, i have spent more money on headphones and headphone gear.
Seal's song Crazy has shown me that my setup was bad. He was in a 4 foot wide, two foot high box. I braided 4, 12 Guage speaker wires for my front speakers. He rose to 4 feet. I set my speakers another foot apart and changed my op amps. He sits at 5 feet high and moves more freely between my speakers. The rest of the music has increased to 3 or 4 feet outside of my speakers. It has improved quite a bit. Now, I'm stuck on how to improve it further.
Good answer, but... to get good soundstage, image and other things, you need to measure your speaker and need to get a linear phase from listening point, second you need to get a good step response and identical measurements from both speakers at listening point. third if you can get a good FR :))) from my point, this thing gives you a good imaging and soundstage.
Went from a cheap boxed Onkyo system to a decent Sony receiver (upgraded all around speakers before getting the Sony) just changing the receiver made such a difference in the all around sound. I was nearly tricked into thinking I had side speakers while playing stereo. Currently run a 5.1 setup. Sony fronts, Polk center and rears. I know they're not the best far as sound goes but the sq increase was exponential. A svs pb-2000 subwoofer some would say is overkill lol. I care not about that. If it's excessive I can turn it down.
Great explanation using the image of the microphones shifting into speakers. I keep my speakers a fair bit out from the wall and the sound stage is clearly behind the wall. Given the wall is made of stone, it is strange to hear a detailed performance coming effortlessly from behind the stone wall.
I did 1/3 1/3 1/3 as you said and a miracle happened on the Kania river in Gostyń, Poland. Let the unbelievers find out. Big thanks. I would like to add that I was married and it is possible now.
Paul - Thank you for sharing Harry Pearson’s “Rule of Thirds.” I enjoy thinking how that rule pretends to image composition also. “Giving things room to move” as you say. Is anybody working on speakers with wheels?
I do not have the ideal speaker placement due to my listening room. I had a pair of Purist Audio speaker cables (3m). I upgraded them to Purist Audio Neptune and my sound stage got wider. Still good but due to room limitations, the speakers themselves are now in the soundstage. No room to spread them out further.
How does a good preamp expand the sound? I can understand less noise and greater headroom, but I don't understand the expansion part. I'm thinking like expanded stereo separation
I was struck by what was said about “speakers breathing room.” It’s not “breathing room” per se, but proper speaker/s placement, finding the correct “play back” RATIO, for “FULL” sound stage.
Hi Paul, excellent video as always. I have question that I am Wrestling with: Should I use 2 different book shelf speakers in the same room. Not Surround sound, but as stereo ? I have just purchased Elac Debut 6.2 (which to my ear are excellent), and was given New Fluances Signature Bookshelf at very good discount. I was debating returning one set, but now play them simulatneously. They kinda of compliment each other to some extent, but the Fluances need more Oomph on the sound volume to equate sound levels. The Fluances offer less separation and little less brightness than the Elacs. Advice and counsel appreciated..... THX and be safe everyone.
well here it is a question, there is a thing that exists that ideal acoustic design is infinite baffle speaker, the speaker driver unit is mounted into the wall so where exactly to speak more or less literal the loudspeaker demands this room/space for breathing?
Is the soundstage and imaging the same?? And at what volume level could you or should you hear these.Thank you for all your insight as to helping us " non audiophiles " get there!!
Soundstage: If you were watching a live band, how wide is the stage they are on. If a guitar is meant to be heard way off to the right, how well can the speakers reproduce that. This is a combination of how wide the speakers sound disperses, and how the sound hits the walls of the room and echo back to you. Imagining: How accurate the speakers are able to place the instruments in the soundstage. This has to do with how well the speaker handles music fading out (lower volumes), phasing, and its off-axis performance. www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php You can use the Lateral test on that site, and as it says, adjust your speakers (separation and toe-in) until it travels 60°. So, you are measuring how wide the sound gets, and you can also hear how well the sound moves from L/R. When the sound is at the center, some speakers will make it seem like it’s just 1-2ft wide right in front of you, whereas other speakers make it seem like just a wall of sound from the L/R.
+Hunkeydorey If the vowels and consonants are coming out a foot apart from the speakers, how can it have an image? Why do point source speakers (like the KEF Uni-Q) have a way better image if it isn't from the point source sound? I haven't heard the KEFs but I heard my point source speakers (made similar). And computer speakers have a way better image than most of the cheaper (hi-fi) two ways and I have heard many lay persons say the same thing. Is it cos computer speakers are point source for treble and med that makes the superior image? Most hi-fi two ways aren't point source in the treble and med.
Hello Paul , you take two microphones in small room to recreate stereo , how you deal with the polar pattern of each microphone, it’s sure you will have phase problems and the result will be muddy or picky depend of the frequency and the position in the room .the timbre and the dynamic will be false. This phenomen will be appear wathever the size of the room
I am convinced that, Paul, Is the icon of audiophiles. Good personality, sincere, humble with friendly opinions. I am learning.
Couldn't agree more. 💯💯💯
No doubt about it!
He's so smart, laid back, and humorous. He reminds me of my supervisor.
I agree and he doesn't seem to mind sharing knowledge with us, and he makes some pretty neat gear too
Really thankful to have access to even a small portion of his considerable knowledge. Along with a cave diving channel I found this year, Paul's channel is definitely the most educational and enjoyable content I've came across. I think he found his calling.
I still watch your videos from years back. RIP Arnie✌️
Good imaging is something I appreciate and something I put effort towards achieving. It's my favorite thing about a good sound system. Being able to hear the musicians solidly located in space, being able to "feel" exactly where each one is, is a magical experience.
If you haven't heard a system that images well, I strongly encourage you to experiment with your own system, or seek out and listen to one that is well set up.
A big revelation for me happened when I was moving into a new apartment in the 1970s. I was not yet an audiophile. To take a break from unpacking and to see what kind of FM reception I could get in this new location, I put my bookshelf speakers on top of boxes, about five or six feet apart and in the middle of the room, hooked them up to my receiver (attaching my dipole antenna made from speaker wire), and found a jazz station. I was startled; before that moment, I wasn't aware of imaging, even as a concept. I thought all there was to stereo was a vague, left, center, right arrangement of voices and instruments. Suddenly, I heard the instruments floating in the room and was amazed and curious about what was going on. This got me on the road to being seriously interested in music reproduction, and I eventually started reading audio magazines, visiting audio stores, and talking to people about sound systems (and in doing so, I learned how many nice systems are set up really badly).
I have my current system set up so that I have a dedicated two-channel system that shares the front speakers with a five-channel home theater system. (When I got a home theater system, I added three speakers, an AV preamp and a 3-channel power amp, but kept my original stereo setup intact for music listening.) So, I have a center speaker, even though its amp isn't turned on for stereo listening. As a demonstration of stereo imaging, I've commented to a guest how clearly we can hear the singer on the center speaker, had them agree, then told them that the center speaker isn't actually on. My guest will usually go stick their ear up to the center speaker to confirm, and are amazed at how just the stereo pair can create the illusion of that centered voice, floating in space.
I feel that a good home theater system needs a good L+R stereo setup as its foundation; the center and surrounds are just enhancements. It's broken my heart to help friends set up pretty nice systems, but have them cruelly compromise sound quality in favor of room design.
In the setups I've had, and that I've helped other people set up, I've usually found that having the stereo speakers and listener in something close to an equilateral triangle is a good starting point. Much of the time it works best to point the speakers slightly towards the listening position, but this varies a lot with different speakers; some sound best pointed exactly straight. Like Paul says in this video, it usually helps to keep the speakers out from the wall, if possible. As Paul also mentions, don't forget to experiment with the listening position; you don't necessarily want to sit with your couch or chair jammed against the wall, either.
It pays to experiment, scooting the speakers around, trying different distances between speakers, distances to the listener, distances from the wall, angling the speakers towards the listening position. Sometimes a very small change will yield a surprising improvement.
I've also discovered over the years that it is usually better to have your speakers on one of the longer walls of the room. Most people seem to do the opposite, perhaps to get more distance from the speakers. My only guess is that this lessens early reflections from the sides of the room. Your mileage may vary, but it's something to experiment with.
After writing the above, I just saw another video where Paul answers the same question, but gives additional details, including speaker toe-in:
ua-cam.com/video/vBfBAMR8zHU/v-deo.html
This microphone explanation explains what I'm hearing. I can totally visualize where the speakers should be without measuring stuff. This is an a-ha moment for me. Thank You for the simple and easy to understand explanation.
and now change the phase of the speakers to compensate the turning around of the microphones:)
Love how You start to answer...rethink...change Perspective..think again and what comes out is pure Knowledge Transfer in the most relaxed but thus precise way.
Thank You
Posting this on Sunday 8/9/2020 at 1:45 am. So after watching this I literally just repositioned my speakers (further away from the front wall) and WOW! WHAT A DIFFERENCE! Almost sound like I have new speakers. The details and overall balance are significantly better! As usual Good stuff here Paul👍🏽
I cannot say Thank You enough, for the 'perfect' sound I am now able to enjoy, using your DSD Dac. That was the constant constraint I dealt with in getting my stereo to sound wonderful. Now, with the DSD Dac, I am completely satisfied. My journey is now complete, and I am able to simply Listen and enjoy. Thank you, and Ted Smith.
Very captivating and quite interesting video. With speaker placement most of us are stuck with the "hand we're dealt" as far as room placement/dimensions go. I have rather smallish speakers (Ohm L) on either side of an archway seven feet up and horizontally placed about nine feet apart in my 1,700+ cu/ft living room. I can stand between the speakers and behind them. Sound is spacious regardless of listening position and works for me. Most importantly, it works for my wife.
Well Said Paul. Your Absolutely correct. Speaker placement is everything !. It is both art and science when it comes to speaker placement. It takes much patience to setup speakers correctly. Most people dont understand the importance of speaker placement, and how to achieve good speaker placement. Also not only does speaker placement effect soundstaging, it also effects tonal balance and bass response. So your not only trying to achieve great soundstaging, you also want to tune ( with speaker placement ) the bass response and overall tonal balance.
Wow!!!! This video changed my life. Thank you so much Paul. Long story short.... I got hearing aids. Wow that's better. I can hear! So, 8 months later i have completely revamped my entire surround sound set up. And I realized I loved music more than I do movies... Hmmmm. Enter Pauls video. All I can say I Holy Cow I had no idea music could possibly sound this good. Once I pulled the speakers off the wall about 4 ft. it sounded pretty good. I ran a few tests with REW and played with the crossover slopes and such, re-aligned the subs to mains. That's when the magic happened. When Paul suggested the sound comes from behind the speaker I didn't completely understand. Trust me, I know now! for those of you who have never experienced this I'll try to explain what it sound like for you. As I sit in my living room and listen to music I have to admit that I can't hear any of the 7.2.4 speakers. I can no longer pinpoint where the sound is created because the room is creating the sound. Yes, the room creates the sound. I no longer hear the speakers. Yes, when I open my eyes I can feel/ sense the sound is coming from behind the speakers. Essentially the entire back wall seems to be about 20 feet farther back than it actually is. And because of the atmos speakers the heighth in the room seem to have doubled. Music that used to sound pretty good now sounds like it's actually being played in my room. You can feel the pressure change as the musician sways his sax from side to side. I got up last night and walked around the room to see what changes I experienced. Like Paul says, It's supposed to reproduce what was played live. And wow does it. Even when I walked behind the speakers it sounded unlike anything I've heard before. I just watched this video again and I'm going to pull the speakers another 2 feet from the wall. Yeah, my wife is that awesome.
Awesome! Congratulations. Thanks for letting us know.
Instead of buying taller stool for my speaker
I followed one of your advice by putting cd case below front of speaker, just to enough making little angle to the speaker.
Then room comes alive with the same vokume. Thanks Paul
I recently moved and my speakers went from being 18” from the wall to 24” and I can’t agree more on the benefits. It has really added that sense of depth (soundstage). It has also helped a lot with imaging. However because my speakers are fairly low-end (Klipsch R-51M), the imaging is still not quite there.
For many of us, its just not reasonable or do-able to have a "listening room", for some we have to make our office/gaming desk our main spot for music enjoyment, or our home theatre does double duty for music time....how do you mitigate if you have to place the speakers near a wall? For me, I found putting my bookshelf speakers on small stands raised above the desktop and even just pulling them 8" away from the wall helped tremendously (as opposed to sitting on a shelf right against the wall...)
Old paul, such a good people person, great company leader. Never being to serious while being ultra professional.
That was a great analogy & answer. Thank you, Paul!
This reminds me of a tip I got about subwoofer placement.
Put the sub where you gonna sit and then crawl around in the room until you can hear the best bass, .. that's where the sub should be
that might be the very worst place to put a sub, unless you just want as much bass as possible no matter how it sounds
Hi Paul, very interesting explanation. I would like to ask about surround sound from stereo set up. I had some cheap speakers from KEF and could hear the sound round my head. Now I've got some more expensive and bigger speakers from Monitor Audio which generally sound better but there is no 3D sound. Is it either a room size, set up or stereo shouldn't sound in 3D ?
The largest part of your system's "sound potential" rests in it's speakers quality, appropriate size application, and placement. A guitar amplifier can totally change personality and sound with "just" a speaker change. The speaker is almost everything.
yes and no, for mixing and monitoring i'd say that the speakers reach their max potential ONLY ONCE the room has been treated. and it doesn't have to be anything fancy. i fail to realize how and why the majority of studio photos i see have placed most of their proverbial eggs in the rear wall... the front wall is where all the magic happens and it is of paramount importance that one places the MOST absorption material in the FRONT wall and positions monitors roughly 1.5 meters (5 feet) away from the TREATED wall (meaning 5 feet away from front concrete or drywall, but only about 2 feet from the absorption material... the bass energy (frequencies) will pierce right through that thick absorption layer and still reflect off the front wall, but in a much less pervasive way... so, yes speakers need to breath, but if you simply follow the advice of our esteemed host Paul sans treating front wall, you'll still get slap-back and instead of airy sound image you'll get audible and/or inaudible distortion
@@motafov are you saying material should be 3 feet thick?!
@@2112res ideally, yes, if your room is long enough, but 2 feet at least is a must, unless you invest in fancy (i.e. expensive) material which might provide superior absorption with only one foot thickness. I used a mattress and thick blankets in the front wall for a total of 3 feet worth of thickness - granted my room was uncharacteristically long and rectangular - but this layer smothered the bass sufficiently without harming any midrange frequencies. in the back wall i had two bass traps in the corners (i actually had bass traps in all four corners of the room) and only a diffuser in the middle portion of the back wall and the results were outstanding (professional sound engineer thought the tracks had been mixed in a high end studio when he heard them, no word of a lie !)
@@motafov Such thickness sounds a bit nuts, but I have heard it just one other time. It's worth investigating! BUT in your original post you state that bass will be piercing and reflecting, and here you are saying bass gets smothered. Leaves me a bit baffled. \8
@@2112res in original post i said bass will pierce because its so powerful and that the suggested thickness will tame it, meaning that without such "overkill" in the front area, the speakers will/would not reach their potential; in other words, the more you can place there, the better the results, keeping in mind the length of the room of course, you DON'T want to end up in a listening position thats smack center in the room...main point simply being that too many folks neglect the front wall, worse still they mix in front of a window (yikes!) OR with their speakers practically touching the front wall...Conduct an experiment, place a shit load of absorbing material in the front and see the drastic difference for yourself (ignore aesthetics for this experiment) and let me know what happens :)
I agree with Paul, but wish to add onto this.
There are other factors involved by way of recording technology and speaker technology.
For the example of speaker technology, I have the DCM Timeframe 600s. They have two soft dome tweeters on either side of the speaker pointed in a 45 degree angle behind the speaker. This creates a bridge of sound from one speaker to the other. This creates a fantastic sound stage . One of the great tricks is to show people your entire surround setup with all the speakers. Then play a music track in stereo. Then ask them which speakers were working. You watch them point to the center, the rears, and so on only to trick them and say it was just the two floor standing speakers. So, technology/engineering created that scenario.
The other is recording. There are two recording technologies that can force a speaker to provide amazing imagining. Q-Sound and Roland Sound Space. The later is one of the most amazing. It can take a sound and make it travel in any direction within the sound space, even forwards and backwards, with just two standard speakers.
I have a set of DCM Timeframe 600s also...I love them
Quality amplification definitely is a strong second imo.
Great way to explain the imaging concept. Eye, or rather ear opening. Thank you.
Always such a joy to listen to your videos. Bravo!
Thank you Paul for another well made and carefully researched video!
Such a great knowledge. Glad you are putting up videos. Thank you sir !
Blew my mind. That was the best way to describe where the music should be coming from. Now off to change my entire music room 😂
Good imaging can be helped by point source sound so the vowels and consonants are coming from the same point (unlike most speakers) and by a decent high frequency response. If it's muffly there is no image and if treble is too pronounced and hissy on the top end there is also no image. But if the treble response it balanced just right you will get the best image. But the treble has to go right up to 20 khz (without too much or not enough intensity). It's a knife edge in treble intensity to get the really best image. Play with the treble control, moving it in "thousandths of an inch" increments to get the best image. I usually run my speakers flat but I experiment with the tone controls too sometimes for research. And before I finalize my speakers I play with the treble control and then adjust the tweeter level with small resistances until I get the best image and treble sound (ran flat). It's amazing what difference just a half ohm makes in tweeter level (and to the image).
Bit perfect on my Mac Mini and iTunes
Thank you Paul
Thank you very muck
Dave
Want phenomenal imaging without having to pull your speakers out like Paul describes then research Ohm Acoustics Walsh series speakers they are the best imaging speakers with reach out and touch it realism and great sound in general.
Thanks for the plug! Got any microphones that are so good it doesn't matter where you place them?
Speaker placement is the single most important aspect of getting good sound and good imaging. Placement of speakers dictates overall tonal balance, bass response, midrange, and treble. Then once you have found the ideal speaker placement ( which takes time to achieve ) you are likely going to get good imaging. The 1/3 rule does work and work well. Now some will say that will not work in their situation. Well you can either make marks on the floor where the speakers sound there best and then move them to a more practical position when not doing any serious listening. You can then place them on your marks when you want to do some more critical listening. Or you can try 1/5 the distance. You will likely compromise depth of image and openness but you might be able to get reasonably good tonal balance. You can have the best speakers and equipment but if you dont play with positioning away from the front wall, you will never get good tonal balance or imaging.
Wonderful episode! I learned a lot from it! Thank you
As always, great information! Thank You!
What worked for me: I chose a simple music, where there is 1 singer, and just a couple of instruments. The distance from the side walls is good, when you see the singer in front of you and you can place the instruments horizontally. Imagine this process like when you're using binoculars. After this, you can play as much as you want with the depth depending on your circumstances. In my case, it was the creation of the bass. I only used a 2.0 setup, so I moved the speakers from the front wall as much as it made the bass lovely.
The result was, that I didn't need a 5.1+ system, and I don't want in the future.
Speakers: Pioneer S-A4SPT-PM Pure Malt Speakers - frequency matched
amp: Pioneer A-20
The room: basically empty, clean, with carpet: 19'x15' ceiling: 8'
I just loved how they sounded. I watched the new - at the time - Mad Max movie on them with awe. The amount of rumble was wow, and I felt I am in the movie.
There are many factors to get the best imaging as Paul mention in this video. But I would say that to get the best imaging firstly the speakers have to have a great phase integration between drivers. That is the key to get the so call "3d image".
You should hear one point of sound source. You should not hear tweeter here, midrange there and so on. The next step is to have a proper placement of the speakers in your room. The sounds we hear in a room is not only generated by the speakers but from reflexions as well. Avoiding standing waves and resonances will help you get a clean sound without reflexions.
Distance between speakers as well as distance to sitting position is also key to get it correctly. Important in this point is to know the recommendations from the speaker manufacturer. One common problem I see in many rooms is that people tend to have the speakers on axis to the listening position. This setup usually narrows soundstage and plays against proper imaging in most cases. I would recommend to start with the speakers without toe in, and slowly start to toe them in thill you are happy with the soundstage. With a proper design loudspeaker you'll be able to get depth, space, air, all of those words we like to hear to describe a 3d image from a stereo setup.
"But I would say that to get the best imaging firstly the speakers have to have a great phase integration between drivers."
I was working with full range (FR) drivers and doing stuff to get extra khz from them for phase aligned sound, and now I have finally done it and have made the best pair of speakers I have ever made. I used a 3" FR driver and drilled a hole through it (a major task) and used another micro FR driver (stripped of it's cone) and I glued a thin stick to the voice cole tube of the micro FR driver and poked the stick through the hole in the 3" FR driver and glued the modified micro FR driver to the back of the 3" FR driver (while carefully lining up the stick in the hole). On the other end Of the stick (which is now at the speaker front) I glued a tiny foil "whizzer" and it's in phase with the 3" FR cone (stick is just the right length). It gives the FR driver more khz and sounds way different to most $10 FR drivers (way more top end "sting"). And the metal foil whizzer (1/4" big) makes the cymbals sound metallic and the ride cymbal really happens (unlike with normal $10 RF drivers). Mine cost $5 each and $3 for the mico ones. Amazing "3D effect". I call it the the "headphones effect". I built them with the boxes along with extra 6" woofers.
Essentially you're talking about an artificial phenomenon that can be amazingly euphonious if you're lucky and yes, there is a sweet spot to be found that always sounds (but rarely looks) better. If you're married or living with a woman primarily concerned with visual aesthetics and not perceived sound quality that can prove to be something of a contentious issue involving some serious negotiating, negotiating which you're likely to lose unfortunately.
A little tip here. Most people orient their listening rooms in landscape mode with the speakers and couches set against the longer walls. From a listening perspective this is wrong on two counts, because it is limiting on couch and speaker placement and because it also tends to exacerbate flutter echo phenomena where the walls are parallel (which they generally are). The couch and speakers should thus be placed in front of the shortest walls. This will give you more room to tweak your speaker and couch's positions relative to the walls behind them and will always create a way better sense of depth and clear up (but not totally eliminate) that annoying flutter echo.
The 'imaging' Paul is referring to is as a result of rear sound radiation (generally diffracted) reflecting off the wall behind the speakers. The distance between the speakers and wall governs the delay in milliseconds between reflected and direct radiated sound. The human brain, used to calculating perceived distances by processing such time delays, does the rest. It could be called pyschoacoustic, because in essence it creates processed errors in the brain that sound nice.
The same phenomena (but in reverse) applies to situating your seating area away from the listening wall. In this case the forward radiated sound from the speakers and the delayed radiated sound from the wall behind the speakers bounces back off that wall and reaches the listener's ear at a time determined by the distance between couch and wall and further fools the brain into imagining non-existent (and definitely not recorded) distances. There is no magic involved, but in this much I agree with Paul. It can seem like it when listening, especially if the walls are treated to diffract sound and in the end that which makes your sound nicer is nicer. It's you that's listening after all.
You lose bass by firing speakers down the long end of a room, the bass tends to load the back wall.
I always fire down the short end.
2:45 - Wives are the primary cause of bad imaging!
Hahahahahaha, so f true!
LOL!
Yess :))
There are some other variables at play here: age, state of (un)dress etc
OMG I laughed out loud! You put your finger on it. Most wives are concerned with optics, not sound.
True even my desktop speakers costing me $50 sounded great with a nice placement.
Your words in this video are very much what I've been saying for years, actually decades.
With the custom speakers I use, some rooms just fell into place, as to where I thought the speakers should go. Other rooms, I was constantly moving the speakers around, until I finally found their proper location within those pita rooms.
Ive known people who spent 10s of $1000 on speakers and never got their monies worth, cos they refused to pull the speakers away from all the walls.
Space to the sides is needed for width of stage. Space behind the speakers will produce the depth. Height, layered complexity (as I like to call it) and imaging are mostly the speakers, with help from the right amps for those speakers.
I am one of those people who have yet to be shown in practice, that cables matter much at all.
Thanks for the great education. I'll be trying this out.
Thank you very much for your explanations which I totally agree with.
By experimenting with multiple loudspeaker placements myself, I have come to the same conclusions as yours.
❤😂❤
Hello from Muncie,Indiana Paul, i've been a music fanatic all of my short 50 years and have slowly tried to purchase better and better hi-fi equipment throughout my life striving for better sound and musical experience based on what i am able to afford-like most folks and even though i can't afford $5000+ dollar speakers and seperates,i still consider myself an audiophile since i started actually "listening" to music and soundstage in my late teens. i stumbled onto your "ask Paul' vids recently and totally enjoy them beyond what words can express!! it's a true passion for me and i love learning more and more everyday about all aspects of sound reproduction and experience. i;ve always been a big fan of the Polk Audio Monitor series from the 80's and have several Monitor models from the 80's in my collection and although they audiophile quality like PS Audio products they are a favorite from my childhood when i first dove into hi-fi. i wanted to know your thoughts and maybe more of the science behind "stereo dimensional array" and your opinions and any experience you may have or had of it. a vid on the subject would be SO great. i have a Sprout and totally love it!! and hope to expand more into the total PS line of products someday when able. respectfully,jerry
It seems like imaging would also depend on the choices made by the recording and mixing engineers and, to a lesser extent, the mastering engineer. Mic placement, stereo panning, widening, mid/side choices, reverb and other time effects.
Thanks for the insight and great videos
Paul. if I followed the rule of thirds I'd end up sitting in my closet ;)
You're very good at division.
Thats a great idea
Sit in a comfy chair in your closet with closet door open & aim speaker
towards closet. If your wife comes looking for you to nag or check on
Honey do list....close the closet door.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt I've done the math, and apparently my room needs another 30% added to its current length. OK - 33.33% recurring to be exact ;)
I DONT CARE. GET IN THAT CLOSET ARTHUR!
@@JonathanGurgul Please turn your CAPS LOCK key off, Amigo, and give decaf a chance ;)
I can't even begin to achieve the necessary spacing in my very small listening room. However, I can still achieve a fairly rudimentary imaging effect, whilst eschewing the recommended distancing. My seated distance from the speakers has to be less than one speaker from the other and because I'm very deaf in my right ear, I have to increase the balance bias in favour of the speaker nearest that ear. It's a frustrating and difficult procedure, but eventually I seem to get the balance correct and create a small and rather shallow sound stage. It's clearly far from ideal, but I can still get pleasure from the sound itself if not always its shape, dynamic and sense of presence. My only consolation is in knowing that however much I'm tempted by all the brilliant, expensive and acoustic miracles at the high end of the market, with my hearing, it wouldn't make the slightest audio difference to my listening pleasure, so better to stick with what I've got! (and in any case, I couldn't afford it)
The thing that affects imaging the most is the acoustic space not so much the speaker placement. Speakers being close to a wall doesn't really do much to imaging because then you have to explain why expensive studios have in-wall mounted monitors. Distance to a front wall affects bass response primarily but the other reflections happening on the side walls and ceiling will affect the imaging much more.
SoundWave Trax your analogy is completely useless because studios DON'T GIVE A CRAP about imaging. They don't look for it, they don't listen to it, nor do they master and/or cut music for it.
That's the best explanation I've heard w.r.t. speaker placement.
I've been binging on Paul's videos for a week or so now. Of all "audiophiles" out there, this dude is the real deal.
My biggest factors for this are distance and angle of the speakers. Toe-in and distance of the speakers make the biggest difference of all.
What a great description, of flipping the mics around
Very helpful and easy to understand, Thanks you.
Dolby Atmos setup seems to be the best fix for my limited apartment space problems. Image is amazingly huge now.
Educational and cozy, self-effacing entertainer with a wicked sense of humor. Ask Paul
The rule of thirds is an excellent starting point along with judicious toe-in or wall mounted diffusion panels to minimize first reflections, especially in a narrow room. However for my ears the "coherence" of the speaker is equally if not more important for excellent imaging. Coherence within a speaker means that the drivers are well integrated with each other- e.g. woofer, midrange, tweeter etc such that the sound throughout the frequency range appears to be coming from a single source and not bouncing between the individual drivers. In an ideal room a speaker with poor coherence between the drivers will lead to image wander and ultimately frustration for the listener.
Some speakers do this well, others do not. Careful auditioning is the key to finding speakers with excellent driver coherence.
.If you're right -- and I think you are -- then the KEF with the Uni - Q design is the way to go. No wonder why so many people like the LS50's.
great tips and a great analogy
Havent seen this clip until now. Paul mentions Arnie (a folklore hero in HiFi) is designing his speakers. Arnie dies two weeks later. Sad.
Very informative and helpful as usual.
Funny story: when I went on "walkabout" in the very early 90s as a young lad, I had to sell my hifi and also leave behind all of my hifi buddies I met when I was briefly in the business of selling high end audio. I was so desperate to play with hifi equipment that one day I resorted to messing with a CD boom box a buddy who I was staying with had in the middle of a room and tweaking it until I actually got a decent "micro soundstage" out of it. It's speakers were, oh, about 18" or so apart and I had it sitting on a milk crate with me sitting cross legged about three feet away. I almost ruined my back listening to different CDs. It was the best I had to play with and I laugh at what impractical lengths I went to to make it just a little better.
I read once that the best image (i.e. perfect 3D soundstage) you will get in anechoic room
and the worst in a reverberant room This was an extremization clearly But what i got is that room reflections are in the end the worst enemy of a great soundstage. When you block reflections from a wall the wall will disappear sonically speaking. Amazing sensation indeed.
And also outdoor you will get a great sound stage ... but there will be ambient noise of course.
Very helpful, thanks!
Over 40 years ago I found one or two of the answers to this. First there is a way to mathematically calculate if your speakers focus or uniformly disperse the entire frequency range, low bass to high table, if you know the diameter of the various speakers (15 inch bass up to 1 inch treble or less) and compare that to the frequency of the crossovers. Second there are specific ratios of the room the sound was recorded in and the one it is played back into.
That is the best explanation I've heard period
Personally, always had to have 3-channel system with an easily adjustable amp. First system was a Dyanco/(Electrostatic, no longer recall brand) system. Last was a McIntosh/Bozak system. In every case, listeners either wanted more details about the system, or wanted to buy the system. Learning how to quickly adjust the center fill amp takes patience, but is well worth the effort once learned. Next will be ?/Klipschorns, center fill unknown as yet.
Just adding to the information that Paul already stated. He forgot to mention pulling the speakers away from the side walls and trying to position them symmetrically. The listening position ideally would be along the centerline of the room and speakers.
Getting better imaging has to do with equal path lengths between the listening position and the speakers as well as having similar room reflections on both sides. ( as opposed to one open space on one side and wall on other)
Also having the speaker wire runs equal lengths is the most important to attaining better imaging and focus.
Symmetry is the key here. Measuring and placing the speakers to the nearest 1/16" form the listening position, side walls, and front walls can dramatically improve the listening experience.
um, so do you listen with your head in a vise?! if speaker placement to the 1/16" is critical, so is head movement, no?!
@@2112res Head movement is not as critical because it all comes down to getting the arrival times at the listening position of the sound waves to coincide. One this magic happens, the music sounds correct from anywhere in the room. Yes, the imaging changes with regards to head movement but tonality and other qualities of the reproduction come into play. Hard to explain with words.....easier to demonstrate in person.
Great advice. Thank you sir
Polk SRS SDA 1s has the best sound stage and imaging I've ever hear. My room is 22x30 12 in. From the front wall, 8 ft. From the back wall and 30 in from the side walls. You can locate everyone in the band depending on the recording mix which is very important.
huh?
Agree that the SFO Tilson-Thomas Mahlers are exceptional in soundstaging! A too-little acknowledged factor of good imaging is a very close match between left and right speakers in both time and frequency domains, a result of close manufacturing tolerances or "hand"-matching of drivers. Left-right localization of an individual sound source depends on the relative amplitude and/or signal arrival time. If L&R speakers don't match closely, there can be a zone of confusion created as different frequencies "argue" with your brain over localization, resulting in smearing, very similar to the "circle of confusion" of an out-of-focus camera lens as different areas of the lens disagree on the spatial location of a subject element at the film plane. Similarly, fore-aft localization is largely dependent on frequency content and relative amplitude as air attenuates frequencies selectively with distance, giving a trained brain clues to distance. Relative arrival times are also important. Here again, disagreement between left and right speakers can confuse the ear and brain, as can nonlinear frequency response, causing perceived fore-aft smearing. Listening to precisely-imaging speakers is a joy as the elements of the music stand out in clear relief and the structure of the arrangement and performance becomes clearly apparent.
I get that this is an older video, but what I never understood is that if I have, say, a 9m wide room and I put my speakers 1/3 of way across then I get a 3m 1/4 wavelength between the speaker and the reflective wall - that's an 12m wavelength at 180 degrees out of phase, for around 29 Hz, which is prime to toast the bottom octave . If the room is smaller, say 6m, that's around 43Hz, put the speakers 1 m out and you get 86Hz, at which point you may as well go and buy a set of earbuds. Soffit mounted speakers sound great (OK, they tend to be in studios with a set of big old Brystons behind them) but putting speakers right against the wall will push the canceling frequencies high enough that acoustic absorbers can fix the problem. Sure, we get 1/2 space boundary shelves, but they are dead easy to eq out, vs trying to fix cancellations. For anyone with a room less than big enough to get 4-5m behind the speakers, isn't it a better option to stick them as close to the front wall as possible with a block of glass fibre insulation behind them?
Subscribed and thank you from my heart.....
I like your explanations. I find this one very easy ti grasp.
Thanks!
I have a small room (with too much stuff in it) and its impossible to set my speakers optimally from the walls. It's the main reason i haven't upgraded any of my components since it would go to waste without proper speaker placement. As a result, i have spent more money on headphones and headphone gear.
Great info specially for newbies PS i heard Arnie Nudell passed rest in peace.
Seal's song Crazy has shown me that my setup was bad. He was in a 4 foot wide, two foot high box. I braided 4, 12 Guage speaker wires for my front speakers. He rose to 4 feet. I set my speakers another foot apart and changed my op amps. He sits at 5 feet high and moves more freely between my speakers. The rest of the music has increased to 3 or 4 feet outside of my speakers. It has improved quite a bit. Now, I'm stuck on how to improve it further.
Listening to these on a pair of klipsch Hersey mk 1 from 1994 that I only paid $20 for!
nick parkin Whoa 😳 $20 bucks only for those Sweet Speakers??!
Good answer, but... to get good soundstage, image and other things, you need to measure your speaker and need to get a linear phase from listening point, second you need to get a good step response and identical measurements from both speakers at listening point. third if you can get a good FR :))) from my point, this thing gives you a good imaging and soundstage.
paul u forgot to mentioned the great city of oxnard ..representing the 805!!...cheers from southern cali paul big hugs to all the people at PS AUDIO!!
Went from a cheap boxed Onkyo system to a decent Sony receiver (upgraded all around speakers before getting the Sony) just changing the receiver made such a difference in the all around sound. I was nearly tricked into thinking I had side speakers while playing stereo. Currently run a 5.1 setup. Sony fronts, Polk center and rears. I know they're not the best far as sound goes but the sq increase was exponential. A svs pb-2000 subwoofer some would say is overkill lol. I care not about that. If it's excessive I can turn it down.
Great explanation using the image of the microphones shifting into speakers. I keep my speakers a fair bit out from the wall and the sound stage is clearly behind the wall. Given the wall is made of stone, it is strange to hear a detailed performance coming effortlessly from behind the stone wall.
I did 1/3 1/3 1/3 as you said and a miracle happened on the Kania river in Gostyń, Poland. Let the unbelievers find out. Big thanks. I would like to add that I was married and it is possible now.
Thank you very much you are so genius
Paul - Thank you for sharing Harry Pearson’s “Rule of Thirds.” I enjoy thinking how that rule pretends to image composition also. “Giving things room to move” as you say. Is anybody working on speakers with wheels?
I do not have the ideal speaker placement due to my listening room. I had a pair of Purist Audio speaker cables (3m). I upgraded them to Purist Audio Neptune and my sound stage got wider. Still good but due to room limitations, the speakers themselves are now in the soundstage. No room to spread them out further.
How does a good preamp expand the sound? I can understand less noise and greater headroom, but I don't understand the expansion part. I'm thinking like expanded stereo separation
Great explanation as usual
Great, Paul! Quite informative
I was struck by what was said about “speakers breathing room.” It’s not “breathing room” per se, but proper speaker/s placement, finding the correct “play back” RATIO, for “FULL” sound stage.
Have you done a video listing your favorite hi fi albums to "test" speakers on? If so please link me. Thanks.
This was a good one.
Wish I had teachers like Paul
Hi Paul, excellent video as always. I have question that I am Wrestling with: Should I use 2 different book shelf speakers in the same room. Not Surround sound, but as stereo ? I have just purchased Elac Debut 6.2 (which to my ear are excellent), and was given New Fluances Signature Bookshelf at very good discount. I was debating returning one set, but now play them simulatneously. They kinda of compliment each other to some extent, but the Fluances need more Oomph on the sound volume to equate sound levels. The Fluances offer less separation and little less brightness than the Elacs. Advice and counsel appreciated..... THX and be safe everyone.
I learned something, thanks
Does that mean that speakers that have the air ducts at the back instead of the front will generally have more efficiency?
I Love ❤ the dog!
What can we do if we have to push speakers to the Wall? Any Materials that can compemsate?
well here it is a question, there is a thing that exists that ideal acoustic design is infinite baffle speaker, the speaker driver unit is mounted into the wall so where exactly to speak more or less literal the loudspeaker demands this room/space for breathing?
I'm going to try this! Luckily my woman lives across the road so I can do what I want!! Hooray!!! I have Focal speakers and 2 REL t9i's
This help me immensely...
Very well said!
Is the soundstage and imaging the same?? And at what volume level could you or should you hear these.Thank you for all your insight as to helping us " non audiophiles " get there!!
Soundstage: If you were watching a live band, how wide is the stage they are on. If a guitar is meant to be heard way off to the right, how well can the speakers reproduce that. This is a combination of how wide the speakers sound disperses, and how the sound hits the walls of the room and echo back to you.
Imagining: How accurate the speakers are able to place the instruments in the soundstage. This has to do with how well the speaker handles music fading out (lower volumes), phasing, and its off-axis performance.
www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php
You can use the Lateral test on that site, and as it says, adjust your speakers (separation and toe-in) until it travels 60°. So, you are measuring how wide the sound gets, and you can also hear how well the sound moves from L/R. When the sound is at the center, some speakers will make it seem like it’s just 1-2ft wide right in front of you, whereas other speakers make it seem like just a wall of sound from the L/R.
hunkeydoreyplayer Thx's.Will chk.out that link.
+Hunkeydorey
If the vowels and consonants are coming out a foot apart from the speakers, how can it have an image? Why do point source speakers (like the KEF Uni-Q) have a way better image if it isn't from the point source sound? I haven't heard the KEFs but I heard my point source speakers (made similar). And computer speakers have a way better image than most of the cheaper (hi-fi) two ways and I have heard many lay persons say the same thing. Is it cos computer speakers are point source for treble and med that makes the superior image? Most hi-fi two ways aren't point source in the treble and med.
I have learned , to compare --- & then decide for myself !! Regards : G.G.C.
Hello Paul , you take two microphones in small room to recreate stereo , how you deal with the polar pattern of each microphone, it’s sure you will have phase problems and the result will be muddy or picky depend of the frequency and the position in the room .the timbre and the dynamic will be false. This phenomen will be appear wathever the size of the room
Paul, would you recommend dampening behind your speakers if you are forced by space limitations to place them against the wall?