As I see it all the magnetic loops are a variation on a generic design, even the Wellbrook, just as all vacuum cleaners or all fridges are similar designs. You can't copyright your fridge design to stop other people making and selling fridges. What you can do is have your own particular design, make it well to a price point and if it's good you'll make money from it. Is the Wellbrook a totally new invention or is it a particular refinement on what went before? The Wellgood is a circuit board and a set of instructions, it's a totally different product to the Wellbrook, even if it's based on it, though with different components. There's thousands of different, but similar magnetic loops if you search on the internet, are we to get upset about all those too? My HF receiver cost £50 from eBay, I can't afford expensive antennas and I like making my own gear. There's room for all-sorts of approaches to this hobby.
@Amateur Radio OH2DX ...stealing?. you have a talent in standup commedy!. if there is a registered or patent design, yes, it's illegal, and again, thats for a limited time. 99.9% of designs are recycled and copy. business are business, if you care for ethics join the church!.
Wellbrook sold a vero board with two transistors for $250. The Wellgood people uncovered it. They modified and improved the design and offered it for a reasonable price. Wellbrook has been forced to redesign their own version. So, where is the problem? As always, we are open to buy the product we prefer.
I don't agree with re-engineering someone else's product without prior permission - and labelling it in a way that is clearly designed stick two fingers up at the original manufacturer. It's that simple.
Publishing a circuit diagram of a design obtained by reverse engineering a product does not breach copyright (though IANAL). To be in breach of copyright, the distributed circuit diagram would have to be a copy of the original circuit diagram document. It is the document itself that is protected by copyright, not the design.
You also have to look at the context of how this was achieved - x-ray and putting it all online, before labelling it 'Wellgood'. I don't agree with it. 73
Hi. I bought a Wellbrook loop in 2007 and I was 100% satisfied. Unfortunately it failed in 2010 with the loop breaking off from the amplifier. A new modified amplifier was £100 and at that time I had not long been made redundant so the repair was way down the list. I then found a circuit on the net with two transistors and a dozen other components, I used 2N2222A transistors and mounted it all in an IP66 box along with the ends of the original loop. It worked every bit as good as the original and still does 12 years later. I did manage to open up the original, the sealing was very good but weak mechanically around the entrance of the loop ends to the amp and the use of what looked like veroboard unprofessional in my opinion.
I know you're angry about this and the owner of Wellbrook is understandably annoyed, but I think it was always going to happen. People have always copied expensive premium products to make them more affordable. The Wellgood loop is a different product to the Wellbrook. You now have the choice of the "genuine" product or a cheap DIY device based on the original. In actual fact there are many versions of active loop antenna circuits and many scientific papers describing them. Really they're not that complicated. I'm sure Wellbrook's success will continue, their products are excellent. Others may conclude choice is a good thing.
I'm not sure if UA-cam is not allowing me to post a comment because I added a link - so one last go. There's the mention of breaking copyright law in several places, but it's highly unlikely that copyright applies here. It might apply to the schematcis and veroboard design documents, but would not apply to anything reverse engineered. There don't seem to be any protections placed on the design, and the sales T&Cs would only apply if purchased from Wellbrook by the person doing the reverse engineering. The original design appears to be quite dated and poorly implemented - veroboard is not a good choice these days. Making a new PCB, moving to SMD and using better transistors is a great idea. The Wellgood may well perform better, or at least, more consistently. I have to question the use of potting for weather protection - it can work, but only if done very well. It looks like voids allow water in with the way it is done here. People are going to disagree with you here. You seem to be more on the doing side of ham, rather than the making side. Antenna amps have a long history of being improved on across time. I think if Wellbrook really wanted to keep their sauce secret, they needed to take more control.
Thanks for your comments. I think fundamentally, I don't agree with re-engineering commercial products, without the prior permission (e.g. licence) from the manufacturer. A big part of the problem for me is the way it was labelled the 'Wellgood'...a play on words yes, but also extracts the urine - and the guy that started this is very clever indeed and knew what he was doing. It's that simple for me...and how 50% of the ham community hate me lol. Nevermind, I'll get over it, even if they don't. 73
It should probably be noted that Andrew Ikin, proprietor of Wellbrook , sadly passed away on October 25th 2023. To date there does not appear to be a continuation of the business or any after-sales support for those who bought Wellbrook products. Development of Wellgood products continues where they are on version 4.1 using a quality surface-mount manufactured amplifier and bias tee. There are other alternatives - Wellgood has been cloned by Chinese and Russian manufacturers, or for a different design, Cross Country Wireless are still producing their loops and amplifiers.
I'm a bit late to the party on this one but if anyone wants a cheap receive loop, Cross Country Wireless here in the UK sell the amplifier part of the loop on it's own for about £60-£70. You have to make your own loop out of wire (or any other suitable material). I picked up some copper water pipe from the local DIY store, cut it down & soldered it with 90 degree corner joints to form a square. Really easy. Took me an afternoon. Probably cost about £100 in total if that. I'm not sponsored or affiliated in any way with Cross Country Wireless. The few items I own from them I purchased at full retail price. I'm just suggesting a cheaper & more ethical option for anyone that can't afford a genuine Wellbrook Loop.
Of course I know that this isn't quite the case; it is a development of a well-known design that has been made into a very good commercial product that many, myself included, are very happy to purchase and to use.
If that's true, then it's a derivation of earlier prior art. You know, upon reflection, it's the fact it it marketed as the 'Wellgood' makes it worse because it suggests the person responsible is digging at the OEM.
I own and have no problem in mentioning it here two Wellgood kits and they both work exceptionally well, i have seen posts of the wellbrook loops failing due to water ingress. the circuit board in the wellbrook look dated as are its components the WellGood kits have been improved and brought up to date as far as i'm concerned. the kits are not posted for sale on ebay you have to contact the man himself. ive now built two fully working loops for £140.00 and im very happy with them.
This rather polarized discussion has been given new life by MW1CFN's recent blog posting. From what I read - yes, WG is a clone of an earlier WB design and WG has now released v3.0 modifying his design in a different direction. WB meanwhile, claims to be using a newer design with JFETs rather than bipolar transistors - so he's upped his game which can only be good.
As an owner of three Wellbrook loops I can confirm that they do indeed work very well, so much so that a dozen were ordered (by me) for a work project and they are (mostly) still in service all around the world. When one failed and I too dismantled it to see why it had failed (water ingress causes galvanic corrosion and ruined it) I was pretty surprised to find Veroboard in there but heyho, it works and works well. A fairly straightforward trawl of published documentation will show up several related designs which use the same principles, all related back to the use of transformer lossless feedback described by David Norton in 1975; this was not patented and was published in the IEEE Proceedings that year, meaning anyone was free to use it. Where the design used by Wellbrook Communications in their amplifier came from, I cannot comment because I didn't examine it in any detail as, at the time, it did what I needed and did it very well. I do not believe they ever attempted to patent their design either and I suspect that they would not have been terribly successful if they had, since significant prior art exists and is in the public domain. What I can be reasonably sure of is that the designer of the Wellbrook loop amplifier will have been aware of the work of Norton, Trask, et al and chose to use that design as their basis; indeed developing it further has occurred over the years and my examination of a very recent low-noise loop suggested that the amplifier design is now significantly different even if it still uses the same basic principles. In short the WellGood loop amplifier is not a "DIY knockoff" of the Wellbrook design any more than the Wellbrook design is a "DIY knockoff" of any other implementation. Over the years Wellbrook have provided a good product with good performance and they continue to do so; I will continue using my Wellbrook loops with pleasure because they work and work well.
Since Wellbrook doesn´t even respond to EU request for a long time (since Brexit), why not get a Wellgood and the Antenna does work very nicely, just as good as the orig. Wellbrook. Today we got the announcement, Wellbrook is closing down.
You don’t get “bonus points” for buying a more expensive antenna. Nor is there a direct correlation between price and performance. I am thrilled with my MLA-30+, and would never buy a Wellbrook. And, more importantly, I feel I got more than what I paid for. The Wellbrook, on the other hand, is insanely overpriced.
Clearly Arthur, if you'd never buy a Wellbrook, then you have no empirical evidence upon which to make your very general statement that there is no direct correlation between price and performance nor can you state the Wellbrook is insanely overpriced. I've used an MLA-30+ and it's not even close to an ALA1530. You should think about performance as a function of price.
@@OxfordShortwaveLog So how can you say for people not to get a Wellgood? No two installation environments are the same. The MLA30+ works incredibly well for me. I’m a photographer that shoots with Nikon and Hasselblad gear. Yet there are Leica shooters that would look down on me because I didn’t buy into the Leica ecosystem at a prohibitively high price point. Spending more doesn’t make one a better photographer. And I don’t think spending more for a magnetic loop makes one a more skilled DXer.
Because the guy X-rayed the circuit then used solvent to remove the resin and then published someone else's design on the internet without their permission, breaking copyright laws and terms of sale conditions before I even get on to the misuse of IP. It's really that simple Arthur.
@@OxfordShortwaveLog It is the way of the world. Designs are reverse engineered all the time. When the former USSR built Buran, a ripoff of NASA’s Space Shuttle, or the Tupelov TU-144, a ripoff of the Concorde, they were simply that, a reverse engineering of a design. To me, anything in this day and age that makes the hobby more affordable for the masses, is a good thing. As I hinted at earlier, you don’t score bonus points by purchasing a Wellbrook, you get a much lighter wallet. Not everyone can afford one. It’s nice to have more reasonable and affordable alternatives. The Wellbrook owner likely won’t have a leg to stand on in courts, as magnetic loop technology has been around for quite some time now. There is nothing proprietary or magic about a Wellbrook design.
I have bought everything Andy has ever made -- and between our local gang of avid DXer's we have spent thousands on these wonderful projects -- only one or two have died... Looking back, and I may be wrong on this, the original ALA100 or 1530 was based on a dual Norton amplifier from QST magazine in the mid-1970's... It has most certainly evolved under Andy's tireless enthusiasm... and I get protecting his ideas with potting and veroboard construction... That said, and it's a SMALL 'that said..." some of the ALA1530 outdoor loops could have been better sealed or water protected -- and if you have dropped 300 quid on one of these you hope that they last. I still have my original ALA100's (and some ALA100LN's - and FLG100LN's ...) and they are workhorses... As an electronics engineering technologist, it is not a stretch to "copy", clone or dream up something similar based on textbook references. It is downright cheeky to take the ideas and pass them off as a "close clone..." I mean, why not create something "different" -- because a smart person can... and then call it the BFGX15 or something.... or the RedSea500.... anything buy Wellgood, WellDone, WellStream or whatever... that's just naughty. My 2P! Ta very much indeed.
When I rung them last week to see if they could maybe repair my silver version of the amplifier (loose coil / tracking worn away) his wife said they sold the business, she seemed a bit irritated so I said goodbye
In my view the line was crossed when George produced kits with the sole intention of harming Wellbrooks Sales .. If George had just dissected the Wellbrook loop and made himself a copy to replace the one he transmitted into then no problem .. but to produce kits .. that's not on really . again this is just my view on the subject. I have numerous Wellbrook's loops ie the ala100ln loops and also the one metre loops 1350 . if you mount them correctly and put self amalgamating tape where the loop comes into the amp housing then they are good for as long as you want .. if you are going to put loop up high the you will need to brace loop top in high winds.. goes without saying really all of mine are working after 10 years plus
I understand his pain and frustration. I had a similar issue with a product I was distributing for a main stream company and this item was being clones by Chinese. You can enforce IP protection and engage lawyers at huge cost to you and the items still get through . When you are a small company you can not afford or justify the cost. An most people/clients don’t care all they want is the product at a cheaper price but you will always have the 10% who are loyal and understand quality . Wait till the Chinese market get hold of the design they have no concept or understanding of copyright it isn’t their fault but that is just their business plan
Seven months ago I watched this video and made a comment on it. My opinion has not changed, however, I am somewhat saddened by the response of some contributors. I am sure we have, at some time, broken something and repaired it. This is inevitably followed by a few evenings chat in the pub about the repair and if it should be referred back to the designer, but we are not talking about this! forget the legal side here, what we have is a person taking a man's work, copying the design, and then selling it. It seems to me that the whole thing is one big Micky Take, the use of a very similar name indicates this. If I were to do something like this, I would at the very least, disguise the source by marketing under a totally different name. Whatever the legal position, this cloning of a commercial product purely for financial gain is morally wrong! That said, when our great hobby was created from the original work of Tesler, whose registered patents were hijacked by Marconi, without any acknowledgement of the original designer, and radio was born. He, Marconi, only got away with it because Tesler was an inventor, not a businessman. Tesler died more or less penniless because of this, the man who gave the world, not only radio, but the AC mains we all rely on. With this in mind, can we all agree that, living in the real world, this sort of action is morally wrong, but unfortunately, in our imperfect world the mighty Dollar/Pound/Euro reigns supreme to the detriment of civilized people.. 73 Jim M7BXT
No-one seems to have mentioned all the time and effort Andy took to design the low noise amplifier, and to improve that design and lower NF over the years, only to have someone else clone his hard work. I bought a Wellbrook loop about 15 years ago and took it with me when I moved to Thailand. Somewhere along the line I 'lost' that loop, after many years or extended use. I'm back in the UK and will shortly purchase a new loop from Andy. I'm certainly not going to purchase anything from a 'butter tanker' who basically steals someone else's design...
good Luck, Wellbrook is closing down end of April and that will be it, I guess. Maybe he has some left, maybe not. But still - warrenty will be a problem
Fully agree. For the last 20 years, Andy Ikin's 1530 has enabled my SWLing from a home with a small garden close to highly RF noisy neighbours. I would expect the cheap imitations to come from China where intellectual property law is ignored, but didnt expect that to come from the UK. Hopefully if they do use one of the copies, folks will realise that the original, built and tested by a real expert, will outperform the wellgood and queue up for a proper Wellbrook. I'm sure not selling my two.
I think a good IP lawyer could still make hay with this, but it's not a cheap option and there is no guarantee of recovering costs even if the action is successful. The use of the name "Wellgood" is somewhere between extremely distasteful and actual "passing off". It is a shame that some pirates have callsigns!
It's a good thing to be a really smart person, but another thing altogether to be a complete prick. I'm another radio enthusiast who purchased a Wellbrook ALA-1530 and it has been a complete game changer for me. Well worth the cost and can be used anywhere. Have tried several different active loop designs, but nothing has the low noise floor like the Wellbrook. Totally agree Clive. This blatant ripping off and profit from another persons design is just poor form. If you have spent the money on a good radio, then get the real Wellbrook! You don't buy a Porsche and put cheap tyres on it!!!
I'm guessing these cheap copies aren't being bought by people who've bought the SWL equivalent of a Porsche. Those people will indeed by buying a Wellbrook or it's current equivalent. My guess is that these are being bought by people who've put down somewhere between £30 - £100 on a SDL and can't see themselves spending more than three times the cost of the radio on the antenna. If the Wellbrook is that much better than the Wellgood, it'll find/maintain it's audience. If it isn't, it won't. This is the problem with security through obscurity. Once the genie is out of the lamp, it's game over. You're having to compete on other factors, such as service quality, reputation, etc. etc. To go back to your Porsche analogy, there are lots of cars that do what a Porsche does. They all have four wheels, go fast, get you from A to B. People are happy to spend insane amounts of money because they want that Porsche experience.
Well said, Clint. I am also (another) Wellbrook user and it is a game changer. It's given the ability to use some HF bands that were pretty much lost to noise. Andy is a very knowledgeable guy and very easy to deal with. I don't condone harming a business that has given so much to both the amateur and commercial radio sectors. It's more a moral issue than anything else. If someone wants a cheap loop, they can go for the MLA30+ which is a pretty good design and is independently designed and developed. As someone else has said, once the design is out in the wild, any company in China can clone it and sell it cheap. My feeling is that all Wellgood has done is to damage a UK company. Andy does redesign and bring out improved versions and it would be a shame to see that lost because his business has been undermined. Wellbrook is based on its IP (i.e. Andy's antenna design skills) and to just steal it and offer it to all and sundry to copy freely is just immoral. Imagine if they had stolen and published critical IP owned by say, Google? They would have been mercilessly destroyed. It's far easier to wreck a smaller company. Maybe we should crowdfund cash to appoint a lawyer to see if there is indeed a way to prosecute?
Well said, Clint! I have a Wellbrook 1530LN near ground level, plus a 70ft longwire / balun at a height of 15ft. The Wellbrook outperforms the wire antenna by miles, and it's so much less noisy. It's good to see you're supporting a genuine British business which provides income for our country.
I agree with this video about 70-80%. My reservation comes from the fact that science/engineering progresses by building on other people's work and making it cheaper (and better) in the long term. All of the PCs that we use came about because someone reverse-engineered the ROM BIOS that IBM developed. First of all, it was Compaq, then others. Wasn't that unfair to IBM? Shouldn't we all use IBM PCs today because they invented the PC? Remember that the Wellbrook design that Wellgood 'cloned' relies on transformer augmentation that was invented by Chris Trask. This is key to the low-noise and low IMD exhibited by the Wellbrook loop. Were Wellbrook unfair to Trask? I don't see any of the Wellbrook literature naming Chris and giving him due academic credit. Having said that, what George Smart did by completely reverse engineering the Wellbrook design took this to a new level. What started as an engineering challenge and a bit of fun, including the choice of name - Wellgood - and was presented as such, became a business that can undermine Wellbrook and their R&D funding. They added no little additional value in their own right, apart from the move from veroboard to a decent PCB. This is a step too far in my book.
While I understand your point of view, I have a very specific noise problem over and above the general normal level, I would be more than tempted to try a low cost alternative before the high expenditure on the genuine Wellbrook. It is a lot to spend if it was not effective for my problem Chris G4LGF
I have had a Wellbrook for years and been very pleased with it and in fact am considering purchase of another. Doing a little research it appears that the Radio Amateur who instigated the Wellgood project after the failiure of his loop probably isn't benefitting from the Ebay items on sale It looks like that was a genuine bit of amateur radio investigation in an attempt to see how the loop worked. I think the units on Ebay are just Chinese clones of the information he posted online. That said I will be sticking to the original Wellbrook which I know is a top quality bit of kit.
Hi Clint. Thanks for the thoughts. Unfortunately, as much as I would love a Wellbrook, they are price prohibitive here in VK. However, seeing you use a loop has show me the benefits of it and also kept me in the SWL hobby. I have a loop here from a local supplier which was purchased some time ago so reasonably sure its not a copy of the Wellbrook product. Lets hope the news around the BBC restarting it's SW broadcast to Europe does bring some new people into the hobby, sadly it too a war for the BBC to do it. 73's
Interesting video and comments. Having watched the vid and read the comments I suspect the imitator product probably won't actually hurt the Wellbrook sales much. The market for the two products seem to be quite different. Prospective imitator purchasers are mostly just not likely to buy the Wellbrook, at least initially. To be honest Wellbrook sales may actually be increased a bit when a few of the buyers of the imitation find out they haven't really got what they expected hoped and decide to go for the "real thing". Dave.
I wasn't even aware of the "Wellgood" rip off, what an appalling and immoral example of piracy that goes against the spirit of radio. I much prefer to buy the original wellbrook loops and support them instead.
Think what we need Clint is a comparison vid to show the Good and the Bad /Ugly differences of the loops. Oh!! totally agree with what you're saying Clint
My SWL ended three years ago as next door installed solar panels. Alas even a Wellbrook will not solve my noise issues. As you say it’s not morally correct to go to the lengths to copy the wellbrook. In retrospect maybe removing all markings from the components would of helped. It is unfortunate that this thing goes on.
for your solar panel noise, did you ever consider a QRM Eliminator, they work wonders in the HF bands (and lower), no need to abandon SWL altogether when there may be a solution. I use a QRM Eliminator for some bad noise from high voltage powerlines and transformers (my garden is backing onto a huge hospital) and its worked for me.
Disappointed that Keith Rawlings talks about his Wellgood in the July 2022 issue of Radio User giving reference to the project. - he should know better imho.
Totally agree. Well said Clint. The ALA1530ln is a game changer and fundamentally changed my SWL hobby. Andy is such a nice guy and is so supportive, I hope things get resolved. We need more Andy’s in the hobby! 73 Will.
Well said Clint,at home my listening hobby would of been over a few years back if it was not for my Wellbrook Loop .Wire antenna is a no go and i have space.Its just too noisy. F the Wellgood, its disgusting.
Must say I've never heard of them either and I certainly wont be supporting them. I have the 1530LN and Andy over at Wellbrook has been outstanding in answering any queries or questions I may have had. Well said Clint and it seems it needed to be said, 73s
Totally agree with you, Clint. Being "clever and smart" does not give anyone the right to sell or distribute someone else's intellectual property. I've been beta testing Andy's prototype designs and reviewing production models in the hobby press since the mid-1990s, and I have nothing but admiration for his hard work and the top quality of Wellbrook antennas. I'm sorry to see that a dubious re-engineering effort of the original ALA1530 has turned into illegitimate profiteering. 73, Guy
I am one of those who has a WellGood, and before I say that I agree with some of Clint's sentiments, let me tell you a story. I am a 'returning Ham' and SWL who has always been up for a good project. I read all about the Wellbrook and had a interest in building an active mag loop antenna. My research lead me to the schematics of an early Wellbrook design ( and the originator of the WellGood project ) and I decided to make my own. Many iterations later, including a number of revisions to the circuits to improve the performance and correct mistakes, it was clear that I was no where near the quality of signal to noise that I was hoping for. As a proper project - and although not 100% successful, it has been an interesting journey, and one which I have enjoyed. But having started down the path, I thought it necessary to complete, so I got the latest populated circuit board direct from WellGood and modified it so that it could be used with my own home made 1 metre aluminium loop. This works very well, and having now done an empirical comparison with the 'real thing', the performance my WellGood is on a par with the current Wellbrook. However, as with all my 'projects', the amount of time, blood, sweat and tears, and Veroboard consumed meant it was probably not a cost effective exercise for me to attempt to make my own from scratch. So, if you like 'tinkering', then try the assembled WellGood board and make yourself a loop. If not, and have the cash, then buy the Wellbrook and you will not be disappointed. - and you will also not incur the wrath of Oxford Shortwave Log ! 😄
100% agree! This is not China where, at least, they have the moral excuse that, in their culture, they are not ripping off a design, they are creating a copy to honour the expertise of the designer. Being a cynic, they may be happy with this, but in western culture it is theft, pure and simple! I have no experience of the products mentioned, however, there is a legitimate reason for reverse engineering something and that is to rectify a fault or to improve the product. The correct course of action, in this case is to make the mods and then contact the original designer and tell them what you have done, or say nowt and just use it for yourself, but, from what you say this is not the case. I would urge the community to refrain from buying one of the rip offs and possibly not answer any CQ calls from the person concerned, and blank him if he tries to break into a call. Ham Radio is a "family" spread across nations without any thought of colour, creed or culture, and in a family, while you may bitch about each other under no circumstances do you "do a fellow Ham down!". 73 to all, with one exception! Jim M7BXT
Although I don’t agree with copying any product and I don’t buy cheap as I also believe you get what you pay for , unfortunately your video has gone and marketed this product that most wouldn’t have heard of ever heard 73
That may be so, but the point that it's a poor imitation of the real thing means that anyone stupid enough to buy one, probably deserves what they get lol. 73
@@OxfordShortwaveLog I’ve noticed lots of products in our hobby get imitated , I honestly believe those who would buy the real McCoy always will , but once and that be it usually more cost effective in the long run , cheers
Well said Clint. I am on my second loop after the first one gave up on me. As you say, you get what you pay for and the Wellbrook is a quality product. If these Wellgood guys had developed their own from the ground up then I would have no problem with it but to just copy someone else’s work is out of order and as you say immoral. Shame more can’t be done.
First i have never heard of this and fully expected it to be a Chinese rip off, to say i was shocked that it is unashamedly a UK producer. Unbelievable fully agree it is a piss take. Cannot trading standards be involved? I wish Wellbrook the best as a customer of theirs. Wellgood not very good at all.
Agree. I could maybe agree with wellgood if the guy simply open sourced the thing and that’s it. No profit involved. you could build your own. And even so… Now imagine if wellbrook actually started producing those diy kits? Maybe you could pitch that idea to the owner? Well Clint, regards from sandy portugal and 73s.
@@OxfordShortwaveLog I'm totally in agreement with every word Clint - wouldn't swap my couple of ALA 1530s for anything. You just didn't spot my pun..! Cheers!
Wellbrook loops are still the most satisfying, rewarding and outstanding products I have the pleasure to enjoy in 30 years of monitoring HF. These ALA1530LNPs that shrug off the ever increasing noise from cheaply made junk electronics in my suburban neighborhood are the only dragon-slayers I need that keep the HF waterfalls deep quiet blue backgrounds and clear solid signals coming in year after year. I'll support Wellbrook as long as he is open and hope their many other happy customers do too.
I couldn't agree more. I don't think it's smart or clever just copying someone's design. what would have been cleaver would be to have designed his own loop that out performs the Wellbrook. Perhaps that would have been to much of a challenge for him. Regards Tony Westbrook.
Actually, the WellGood V3 is technically superior, using SMT parts and transistors with lower noise and higher bandwidth. A huge improvement over a vero board design.
That's not the point though is it, when he x-rayed the original circuit to elucidate the design, component by component and then add some mods. Come on, it's not that difficult to understand why this is wrong?!
@@OxfordShortwaveLog I have to agree it doesn't feel right making money out of someone else's idea.If you take an idea and improve it that's one thing but if you just reproduce it and give it another name it's a bit naughty.Mind you that's what copyright is for.🐻🤗👍
As I see it all the magnetic loops are a variation on a generic design, even the Wellbrook, just as all vacuum cleaners or all fridges are similar designs. You can't copyright your fridge design to stop other people making and selling fridges. What you can do is have your own particular design, make it well to a price point and if it's good you'll make money from it.
Is the Wellbrook a totally new invention or is it a particular refinement on what went before?
The Wellgood is a circuit board and a set of instructions, it's a totally different product to the Wellbrook, even if it's based on it, though with different components. There's thousands of different, but similar magnetic loops if you search on the internet, are we to get upset about all those too?
My HF receiver cost £50 from eBay, I can't afford expensive antennas and I like making my own gear. There's room for all-sorts of approaches to this hobby.
Thanks for your comments. 73
@Amateur Radio OH2DX ...stealing?. you have a talent in standup commedy!. if there is a registered or patent design, yes, it's illegal, and again, thats for a limited time. 99.9% of designs are recycled and copy. business are business, if you care for ethics join the church!.
Again, well said Greg. 73
Wellbrook sold a vero board with two transistors for $250. The Wellgood
people uncovered it. They modified and improved the design and offered
it for a reasonable price. Wellbrook has been forced to redesign their
own version. So, where is the problem? As always, we are open to buy the
product we prefer.
I don't agree with re-engineering someone else's product without prior permission - and labelling it in a way that is clearly designed stick two fingers up at the original manufacturer. It's that simple.
Free market baby. Gonna get one of these for myself now.
Publishing a circuit diagram of a design obtained by reverse engineering a product does not breach copyright (though IANAL). To be in breach of copyright, the distributed circuit diagram would have to be a copy of the original circuit diagram document. It is the document itself that is protected by copyright, not the design.
You also have to look at the context of how this was achieved - x-ray and putting it all online, before labelling it 'Wellgood'. I don't agree with it. 73
Hi. I bought a Wellbrook loop in 2007 and I was 100% satisfied. Unfortunately it failed in 2010 with the loop breaking off from the amplifier. A new modified amplifier was £100 and at that time I had not long been made redundant so the repair was way down the list. I then found a circuit on the net with two transistors and a dozen other components, I used 2N2222A transistors and mounted it all in an IP66 box along with the ends of the original loop. It worked every bit as good as the original and still does 12 years later. I did manage to open up the original, the sealing was very good but weak mechanically around the entrance of the loop ends to the amp and the use of what looked like veroboard unprofessional in my opinion.
Thanks for your comments. 73
I know you're angry about this and the owner of Wellbrook is understandably annoyed, but I think it was always going to happen. People have always copied expensive premium products to make them more affordable. The Wellgood loop is a different product to the Wellbrook. You now have the choice of the "genuine" product or a cheap DIY device based on the original. In actual fact there are many versions of active loop antenna circuits and many scientific papers describing them. Really they're not that complicated.
I'm sure Wellbrook's success will continue, their products are excellent.
Others may conclude choice is a good thing.
Agree to disagree then. 73
Here's the thing: look at the boards of each and then tell me which is a "cheap DIY device."
I'm not sure if UA-cam is not allowing me to post a comment because I added a link - so one last go.
There's the mention of breaking copyright law in several places, but it's highly unlikely that copyright applies here. It might apply to the schematcis and veroboard design documents, but would not apply to anything reverse engineered.
There don't seem to be any protections placed on the design, and the sales T&Cs would only apply if purchased from Wellbrook by the person doing the reverse engineering.
The original design appears to be quite dated and poorly implemented - veroboard is not a good choice these days. Making a new PCB, moving to SMD and using better transistors is a great idea. The Wellgood may well perform better, or at least, more consistently. I have to question the use of potting for weather protection - it can work, but only if done very well. It looks like voids allow water in with the way it is done here.
People are going to disagree with you here. You seem to be more on the doing side of ham, rather than the making side. Antenna amps have a long history of being improved on across time.
I think if Wellbrook really wanted to keep their sauce secret, they needed to take more control.
Thanks for your comments. I think fundamentally, I don't agree with re-engineering commercial products, without the prior permission (e.g. licence) from the manufacturer. A big part of the problem for me is the way it was labelled the 'Wellgood'...a play on words yes, but also extracts the urine - and the guy that started this is very clever indeed and knew what he was doing. It's that simple for me...and how 50% of the ham community hate me lol. Nevermind, I'll get over it, even if they don't. 73
It should probably be noted that Andrew Ikin, proprietor of Wellbrook , sadly passed away on October 25th 2023. To date there does not appear to be a continuation of the business or any after-sales support for those who bought Wellbrook products. Development of Wellgood products continues where they are on version 4.1 using a quality surface-mount manufactured amplifier and bias tee. There are other alternatives - Wellgood has been cloned by Chinese and Russian manufacturers, or for a different design, Cross Country Wireless are still producing their loops and amplifiers.
Yes, I knew Andy and it was very sad how he passed so quickly. As for 'wellgood' don't get me started. ;-) 73
I'm a bit late to the party on this one but if anyone wants a cheap receive loop, Cross Country Wireless here in the UK sell the amplifier part of the loop on it's own for about £60-£70. You have to make your own loop out of wire (or any other suitable material). I picked up some copper water pipe from the local DIY store, cut it down & soldered it with 90 degree corner joints to form a square. Really easy. Took me an afternoon. Probably cost about £100 in total if that.
I'm not sponsored or affiliated in any way with Cross Country Wireless. The few items I own from them I purchased at full retail price. I'm just suggesting a cheaper & more ethical option for anyone that can't afford a genuine Wellbrook Loop.
Thanks for your comments
How do you feel about the awful Bonito MiniWhip and PA0RDT original design?
I have a Bonito whip and it's a great antenna in an electrically quiet environment. You can't compare it to an H-field mag loop.
@@OxfordShortwaveLog but it is a copy of an earlier commercial design...
Of course I know that this isn't quite the case; it is a development of a well-known design that has been made into a very good commercial product that many, myself included, are very happy to purchase and to use.
If that's true, then it's a derivation of earlier prior art. You know, upon reflection, it's the fact it it marketed as the 'Wellgood' makes it worse because it suggests the person responsible is digging at the OEM.
I own and have no problem in mentioning it here two Wellgood kits and they both work exceptionally well, i have seen posts of the wellbrook loops failing due to water ingress. the circuit board in the wellbrook look dated as are its components the WellGood kits have been improved and brought up to date as far as i'm concerned. the kits are not posted for sale on ebay you have to contact the man himself. ive now built two fully working loops for £140.00 and im very happy with them.
Well that's your choice. 73
@@OxfordShortwaveLog Exactly we all have a choice, not everyone may be as well heeled as yourself.
This rather polarized discussion has been given new life by MW1CFN's recent blog posting. From what I read - yes, WG is a clone of an earlier WB design and WG has now released v3.0 modifying his design in a different direction. WB meanwhile, claims to be using a newer design with JFETs rather than bipolar transistors - so he's upped his game which can only be good.
Agree
As an owner of three Wellbrook loops I can confirm that they do indeed work very well, so much so that a dozen were ordered (by me) for a work project and they are (mostly) still in service all around the world.
When one failed and I too dismantled it to see why it had failed (water ingress causes galvanic corrosion and ruined it) I was pretty surprised to find Veroboard in there but heyho, it works and works well.
A fairly straightforward trawl of published documentation will show up several related designs which use the same principles, all related back to the use of transformer lossless feedback described by David Norton in 1975; this was not patented and was published in the IEEE Proceedings that year, meaning anyone was free to use it. Where the design used by Wellbrook Communications in their amplifier came from, I cannot comment because I didn't examine it in any detail as, at the time, it did what I needed and did it very well. I do not believe they ever attempted to patent their design either and I suspect that they would not have been terribly successful if they had, since significant prior art exists and is in the public domain. What I can be reasonably sure of is that the designer of the Wellbrook loop amplifier will have been aware of the work of Norton, Trask, et al and chose to use that design as their basis; indeed developing it further has occurred over the years and my examination of a very recent low-noise loop suggested that the amplifier design is now significantly different even if it still uses the same basic principles.
In short the WellGood loop amplifier is not a "DIY knockoff" of the Wellbrook design any more than the Wellbrook design is a "DIY knockoff" of any other implementation.
Over the years Wellbrook have provided a good product with good performance and they continue to do so; I will continue using my Wellbrook loops with pleasure because they work and work well.
Thanks for your comments. I think it's still bad form to publish the actual Wellbrook circuit. 73
Thanks, Greg. Well said and better put than me!
Since Wellbrook doesn´t even respond to EU request for a long time (since Brexit), why not get a Wellgood and the Antenna does work very nicely, just as good as the orig. Wellbrook. Today we got the announcement, Wellbrook is closing down.
I heard they are closing, a shame. 73
You don’t get “bonus points” for buying a more expensive antenna. Nor is there a direct correlation between price and performance. I am thrilled with my MLA-30+, and would never buy a Wellbrook. And, more importantly, I feel I got more than what I paid for. The Wellbrook, on the other hand, is insanely overpriced.
Clearly Arthur, if you'd never buy a Wellbrook, then you have no empirical evidence upon which to make your very general statement that there is no direct correlation between price and performance nor can you state the Wellbrook is insanely overpriced. I've used an MLA-30+ and it's not even close to an ALA1530. You should think about performance as a function of price.
@@OxfordShortwaveLog So how can you say for people not to get a Wellgood? No two installation environments are the same. The MLA30+ works incredibly well for me. I’m a photographer that shoots with Nikon and Hasselblad gear. Yet there are Leica shooters that would look down on me because I didn’t buy into the Leica ecosystem at a prohibitively high price point. Spending more doesn’t make one a better photographer. And I don’t think spending more for a magnetic loop makes one a more skilled DXer.
Because the guy X-rayed the circuit then used solvent to remove the resin and then published someone else's design on the internet without their permission, breaking copyright laws and terms of sale conditions before I even get on to the misuse of IP. It's really that simple Arthur.
@@OxfordShortwaveLog It is the way of the world. Designs are reverse engineered all the time. When the former USSR built Buran, a ripoff of NASA’s Space Shuttle, or the Tupelov TU-144, a ripoff of the Concorde, they were simply that, a reverse engineering of a design. To me, anything in this day and age that makes the hobby more affordable for the masses, is a good thing. As I hinted at earlier, you don’t score bonus points by purchasing a Wellbrook, you get a much lighter wallet. Not everyone can afford one. It’s nice to have more reasonable and affordable alternatives. The Wellbrook owner likely won’t have a leg to stand on in courts, as magnetic loop technology has been around for quite some time now. There is nothing proprietary or magic about a Wellbrook design.
That's not the point Arthur - ripping off someone else's hard work is not right.
I have a Wellbrook indoor loop and it works great! My only mistake is getting a indoor loop because it is almost too big for my living quarters.
10-4...I can't make indoor loops work well at my QTH...
If Wellbrook were open source, they would not have this issue
That is true, but they are not...
@@OxfordShortwaveLog do continue
I have bought everything Andy has ever made -- and between our local gang of avid DXer's we have spent thousands on these wonderful projects -- only one or two have died...
Looking back, and I may be wrong on this, the original ALA100 or 1530 was based on a dual Norton amplifier from QST magazine in the mid-1970's... It has most certainly evolved under Andy's tireless enthusiasm... and I get protecting his ideas with potting and veroboard construction...
That said, and it's a SMALL 'that said..." some of the ALA1530 outdoor loops could have been better sealed or water protected -- and if you have dropped 300 quid on one of these you hope that they last.
I still have my original ALA100's (and some ALA100LN's - and FLG100LN's ...) and they are workhorses...
As an electronics engineering technologist, it is not a stretch to "copy", clone or dream up something similar based on textbook references.
It is downright cheeky to take the ideas and pass them off as a "close clone..." I mean, why not create something "different" -- because a smart person can... and then call it the BFGX15 or something.... or the RedSea500.... anything buy Wellgood, WellDone, WellStream or whatever... that's just naughty.
My 2P!
Ta very much indeed.
Thanks for your comments, Colin. 73
Do you know who, if any, is buying Wellbrook Communications to continue the loop production?
No idea - but some body should!
When I rung them last week to see if they could maybe repair my silver version of the amplifier (loose coil / tracking worn away) his wife said they sold the business, she seemed a bit irritated so I said goodbye
In my view the line was crossed when George produced kits with the sole intention of harming Wellbrooks Sales .. If George had just dissected the Wellbrook loop and made himself a copy to replace the one he transmitted into then no problem .. but to produce kits .. that's not on really . again this is just my view on the subject. I have numerous Wellbrook's loops ie the ala100ln loops and also the one metre loops 1350 . if you mount them correctly and put self amalgamating tape where the loop comes into the amp housing then they are good for as long as you want .. if you are going to put loop up high the you will need to brace loop top in high winds.. goes without saying really all of mine are working after 10 years plus
Thanks Mervyn, I agree with you - but it seems a lot on Twitter don't agree lol. To me it's clear that this is wrong. 73
I understand his pain and frustration. I had a similar issue with a product I was distributing for a main stream company and this item was being clones by Chinese. You can enforce IP protection and engage lawyers at huge cost to you and the items still get through . When you are a small company you can not afford or justify the cost. An most people/clients don’t care all they want is the product at a cheaper price but you will always have the 10% who are loyal and understand quality . Wait till the Chinese market get hold of the design they have no concept or understanding of copyright it isn’t their fault but that is just their business plan
Thanks Alek - couldn't have put it better myself. 73
Seven months ago I watched this video and made a comment on it. My opinion has not changed, however, I am somewhat saddened by the response of some contributors. I am sure we have, at some time, broken something and repaired it. This is inevitably followed by a few evenings chat in the pub about the repair and if it should be referred back to the designer, but we are not talking about this! forget the legal side here, what we have is a person taking a man's work, copying the design, and then selling it. It seems to me that the whole thing is one big Micky Take, the use of a very similar name indicates this. If I were to do something like this, I would at the very least, disguise the source by marketing under a totally different name. Whatever the legal position, this cloning of a commercial product purely for financial gain is morally wrong! That said, when our great hobby was created from the original work of Tesler, whose registered patents were hijacked by Marconi, without any acknowledgement of the original designer, and radio was born. He, Marconi, only got away with it because Tesler was an inventor, not a businessman. Tesler died more or less penniless because of this, the man who gave the world, not only radio, but the AC mains we all rely on. With this in mind, can we all agree that, living in the real world, this sort of action is morally wrong, but unfortunately, in our imperfect world the mighty Dollar/Pound/Euro reigns supreme to the detriment of civilized people.. 73 Jim M7BXT
Thanks Jim, I think we are completely aligned on this issue! 73
No-one seems to have mentioned all the time and effort Andy took to design the low noise amplifier, and to improve that design and lower NF over the years, only to have someone else clone his hard work. I bought a Wellbrook loop about 15 years ago and took it with me when I moved to Thailand. Somewhere along the line I 'lost' that loop, after many years or extended use. I'm back in the UK and will shortly purchase a new loop from Andy. I'm certainly not going to purchase anything from a 'butter tanker' who basically steals someone else's design...
Well said, Simon, couldn't agree more. 73
good Luck, Wellbrook is closing down end of April and that will be it, I guess. Maybe he has some left, maybe not. But still - warrenty will be a problem
You have no idea how Intellectual Property, reverse engineering and copyright works.
This from someone who thinks a video waiting for rain to stop is interesting.
Ooooh! Was I supposed to be intimidated?
You should look up the definition of: 'intimidated' and then re-ask your question lol.
Fully agree. For the last 20 years, Andy Ikin's 1530 has enabled my SWLing from a home with a small garden close to highly RF noisy neighbours. I would expect the cheap imitations to come from China where intellectual property law is ignored, but didnt expect that to come from the UK. Hopefully if they do use one of the copies, folks will realise that the original, built and tested by a real expert, will outperform the wellgood and queue up for a proper Wellbrook. I'm sure not selling my two.
Thanks Rob. It's just a cheap rip-off and like you, I won't be selling mine. 73
100% Rob G
@@OxfordShortwaveLog I don't understand why the price is an issue here. If it performs similarly, what's the issue?
I think a good IP lawyer could still make hay with this, but it's not a cheap option and there is no guarantee of recovering costs even if the action is successful. The use of the name "Wellgood" is somewhere between extremely distasteful and actual "passing off". It is a shame that some pirates have callsigns!
Lol well said!
It's a good thing to be a really smart person, but another thing altogether to be a complete prick.
I'm another radio enthusiast who purchased a Wellbrook ALA-1530 and it has been a complete game changer for me.
Well worth the cost and can be used anywhere. Have tried several different active loop designs, but nothing has the low noise floor like the Wellbrook.
Totally agree Clive. This blatant ripping off and profit from another persons design is just poor form.
If you have spent the money on a good radio, then get the real Wellbrook!
You don't buy a Porsche and put cheap tyres on it!!!
Cheers Adam.
I'm guessing these cheap copies aren't being bought by people who've bought the SWL equivalent of a Porsche. Those people will indeed by buying a Wellbrook or it's current equivalent. My guess is that these are being bought by people who've put down somewhere between £30 - £100 on a SDL and can't see themselves spending more than three times the cost of the radio on the antenna. If the Wellbrook is that much better than the Wellgood, it'll find/maintain it's audience. If it isn't, it won't. This is the problem with security through obscurity. Once the genie is out of the lamp, it's game over. You're having to compete on other factors, such as service quality, reputation, etc. etc. To go back to your Porsche analogy, there are lots of cars that do what a Porsche does. They all have four wheels, go fast, get you from A to B. People are happy to spend insane amounts of money because they want that Porsche experience.
Well said, Clint. I am also (another) Wellbrook user and it is a game changer. It's given the ability to use some HF bands that were pretty much lost to noise. Andy is a very knowledgeable guy and very easy to deal with. I don't condone harming a business that has given so much to both the amateur and commercial radio sectors. It's more a moral issue than anything else.
If someone wants a cheap loop, they can go for the MLA30+ which is a pretty good design and is independently designed and developed.
As someone else has said, once the design is out in the wild, any company in China can clone it and sell it cheap. My feeling is that all Wellgood has done is to damage a UK company. Andy does redesign and bring out improved versions and it would be a shame to see that lost because his business has been undermined.
Wellbrook is based on its IP (i.e. Andy's antenna design skills) and to just steal it and offer it to all and sundry to copy freely is just immoral.
Imagine if they had stolen and published critical IP owned by say, Google? They would have been mercilessly destroyed. It's far easier to wreck a smaller company.
Maybe we should crowdfund cash to appoint a lawyer to see if there is indeed a way to prosecute?
Thanks my friend.
Well said, Clint!
I have a Wellbrook 1530LN near ground level, plus a 70ft longwire / balun at a height of 15ft. The Wellbrook outperforms the wire antenna by miles, and it's so much less noisy. It's good to see you're supporting a genuine British business which provides income for our country.
Thanks Rob.
I agree with this video about 70-80%. My reservation comes from the fact that science/engineering progresses by building on other people's work and making it cheaper (and better) in the long term. All of the PCs that we use came about because someone reverse-engineered the ROM BIOS that IBM developed. First of all, it was Compaq, then others. Wasn't that unfair to IBM? Shouldn't we all use IBM PCs today because they invented the PC? Remember that the Wellbrook design that Wellgood 'cloned' relies on transformer augmentation that was invented by Chris Trask. This is key to the low-noise and low IMD exhibited by the Wellbrook loop. Were Wellbrook unfair to Trask? I don't see any of the Wellbrook literature naming Chris and giving him due academic credit. Having said that, what George Smart did by completely reverse engineering the Wellbrook design took this to a new level. What started as an engineering challenge and a bit of fun, including the choice of name - Wellgood - and was presented as such, became a business that can undermine Wellbrook and their R&D funding. They added no little additional value in their own right, apart from the move from veroboard to a decent PCB. This is a step too far in my book.
Thanks for your comments
No one needed to reverse engineer the IBM PC ROM BIOS-IBM published the complete source code in the user manual.
While I understand your point of view, I have a very specific noise problem over and above the general normal level, I would be more than tempted to try a low cost alternative before the high expenditure on the genuine Wellbrook. It is a lot to spend if it was not effective for my problem
Chris G4LGF
Fair enough Chris. It's ok to have a different point-of-view. 73
I have had a Wellbrook for years and been very pleased with it and in fact am considering purchase of another. Doing a little research it appears that the Radio Amateur who instigated the Wellgood project after the failiure of his loop probably isn't benefitting from the Ebay items on sale It looks like that was a genuine bit of amateur radio investigation in an attempt to see how the loop worked. I think the units on Ebay are just Chinese clones of the information he posted online. That said I will be sticking to the original Wellbrook which I know is a top quality bit of kit.
Thanks...
Hi Clint. Thanks for the thoughts. Unfortunately, as much as I would love a Wellbrook, they are price prohibitive here in VK. However, seeing you use a loop has show me the benefits of it and also kept me in the SWL hobby. I have a loop here from a local supplier which was purchased some time ago so reasonably sure its not a copy of the Wellbrook product. Lets hope the news around the BBC restarting it's SW broadcast to Europe does bring some new people into the hobby, sadly it too a war for the BBC to do it. 73's
Cheers, Darrin and totally agree with you on the BBC restarting more shortwave services. 73
Interesting video and comments. Having watched the vid and read the comments I suspect the imitator product probably won't actually hurt the Wellbrook sales much. The market for the two products seem to be quite different. Prospective imitator purchasers are mostly just not likely to buy the Wellbrook, at least initially. To be honest Wellbrook sales may actually be increased a bit when a few of the buyers of the imitation find out they haven't really got what they expected hoped and decide to go for the "real thing".
Dave.
Thanks for your measured response, David.
I wasn't even aware of the "Wellgood" rip off, what an appalling and immoral example of piracy that goes against the spirit of radio. I much prefer to buy the original wellbrook loops and support them instead.
Thanks and yes, it is a complete rip-off.
Think what we need Clint is a comparison vid to show the Good and the Bad /Ugly differences of the loops. Oh!! totally agree with what you're saying Clint
Good idea Ray. 73
'The right to repair' is what many companys get suit for today
Yep!
Well said Clint! I totally agree with you there mate! Have you got around to doing a video on the JRC NRD-525 yet mate!
Cheers Alan
Welbrook has closed-down now. So this seems like the only option.
Not at all - there are other companies including the Bonito MegaLoop FX. 73
@@OxfordShortwaveLog -- "there are other companies including the £500 Bonito Megaloop FX.." FTFY.
My SWL ended three years ago as next door installed solar panels. Alas even a Wellbrook will not solve my noise issues.
As you say it’s not morally correct to go to the lengths to copy the wellbrook. In retrospect maybe removing all markings from the components would of helped.
It is unfortunate that this thing goes on.
Thanks Ian
for your solar panel noise, did you ever consider a QRM Eliminator, they work wonders in the HF bands (and lower), no need to abandon SWL altogether when there may be a solution. I use a QRM Eliminator for some bad noise from high voltage powerlines and transformers (my garden is backing onto a huge hospital) and its worked for me.
Disappointed that Keith Rawlings talks about his Wellgood in the July 2022 issue of Radio User giving reference to the project. - he should know better imho.
Totally agree. Well said Clint. The ALA1530ln is a game changer and fundamentally changed my SWL hobby. Andy is such a nice guy and is so supportive, I hope things get resolved. We need more Andy’s in the hobby! 73 Will.
Thanks William. 73
Well said Clint,at home my listening hobby would of been over a few years back if it was not for my Wellbrook Loop .Wire antenna is a no go and i have space.Its just too noisy. F the Wellgood, its disgusting.
Thanks Ray. I'm getting flamed on twitter lol, but it needed saying.
Must say I've never heard of them either and I certainly wont be supporting them. I have the 1530LN and Andy over at Wellbrook has been outstanding in answering any queries or questions I may have had. Well said Clint and it seems it needed to be said, 73s
Cheers Tony
Totally agree with you, Clint. Being "clever and smart" does not give anyone the right to sell or distribute someone else's intellectual property. I've been beta testing Andy's prototype designs and reviewing production models in the hobby press since the mid-1990s, and I have nothing but admiration for his hard work and the top quality of Wellbrook antennas. I'm sorry to see that a dubious re-engineering effort of the original ALA1530 has turned into illegitimate profiteering. 73, Guy
Cheers Guy, I knew you'd 'get it'. 73
Hello my friend. Yes yes yes the antenna is everything. If I did not have the cam. E-com 2 my doing would really suffer greatly. Ron. Z.
Cheers Ron
Well spoken 👏👍. I will keep it by the two wellbrook loops indeed a lot off money but real quality.
Exactly.
I wasn't aware there was an issue here. Thanks for raising it.
No problem!
I am one of those who has a WellGood, and before I say that I agree with some of Clint's sentiments, let me tell you a story.
I am a 'returning Ham' and SWL who has always been up for a good project. I read all about the Wellbrook and had a interest in building an active mag loop antenna. My research lead me to the schematics of an early Wellbrook design ( and the originator of the WellGood project ) and I decided to make my own. Many iterations later, including a number of revisions to the circuits to improve the performance and correct mistakes, it was clear that I was no where near the quality of signal to noise that I was hoping for.
As a proper project - and although not 100% successful, it has been an interesting journey, and one which I have enjoyed. But having started down the path, I thought it necessary to complete, so I got the latest populated circuit board direct from WellGood and modified it so that it could be used with my own home made 1 metre aluminium loop.
This works very well, and having now done an empirical comparison with the 'real thing', the performance my WellGood is on a par with the current Wellbrook.
However, as with all my 'projects', the amount of time, blood, sweat and tears, and Veroboard consumed meant it was probably not a cost effective exercise for me to attempt to make my own from scratch.
So, if you like 'tinkering', then try the assembled WellGood board and make yourself a loop.
If not, and have the cash, then buy the Wellbrook and you will not be disappointed.
- and you will also not incur the wrath of Oxford Shortwave Log ! 😄
Thanks, Jon.
100% agree! This is not China where, at least, they have the moral excuse that, in their culture, they are not ripping off a design, they are creating a copy to honour the expertise of the designer. Being a cynic, they may be happy with this, but in western culture it is theft, pure and simple! I have no experience of the products mentioned, however, there is a legitimate reason for reverse engineering something and that is to rectify a fault or to improve the product. The correct course of action, in this case is to make the mods and then contact the original designer and tell them what you have done, or say nowt and just use it for yourself, but, from what you say this is not the case. I would urge the community to refrain from buying one of the rip offs and possibly not answer any CQ calls from the person concerned, and blank him if he tries to break into a call. Ham Radio is a "family" spread across nations without any thought of colour, creed or culture, and in a family, while you may bitch about each other under no circumstances do you "do a fellow Ham down!". 73 to all, with one exception! Jim M7BXT
Thanks Jim, you're the voice of reason! 73
Although I don’t agree with copying any product and I don’t buy cheap as I also believe you get what you pay for , unfortunately your video has gone and marketed this product that most wouldn’t have heard of ever heard 73
That may be so, but the point that it's a poor imitation of the real thing means that anyone stupid enough to buy one, probably deserves what they get lol. 73
@@OxfordShortwaveLog I’ve noticed lots of products in our hobby get imitated , I honestly believe those who would buy the real McCoy always will , but once and that be it usually more cost effective in the long run , cheers
Should say buy once ( blasted auto correct) cheers
Totally agree Nigel.
Well said Clint. I am on my second loop after the first one gave up on me. As you say, you get what you pay for and the Wellbrook is a quality product. If these Wellgood guys had developed their own from the ground up then I would have no problem with it but to just copy someone else’s work is out of order and as you say immoral. Shame more can’t be done.
Thanks, Neil
Thanks for making aware of this patent rip-off.
You're welcome David.
First i have never heard of this and fully expected it to be a Chinese rip off, to say i was shocked that it is unashamedly a UK producer. Unbelievable fully agree it is a piss take. Cannot trading standards be involved? I wish Wellbrook the best as a customer of theirs. Wellgood not very good at all.
Thanks Pete. 73
Agree. I could maybe agree with wellgood if the guy simply open sourced the thing and that’s it. No profit involved. you could build your own. And even so…
Now imagine if wellbrook actually started producing those diy kits? Maybe you could pitch that idea to the owner?
Well Clint, regards from sandy portugal and 73s.
Thanks
Well said. Thanks Clint.
Thanks my friend.
Got to be a legal loophole....sorry!
Oh I'm sure there is...but that's not the point. Morally it's wrong.
@@OxfordShortwaveLog I'm totally in agreement with every word Clint - wouldn't swap my couple of ALA 1530s for anything. You just didn't spot my pun..! Cheers!
Lol no I didn't!
Wellbrook loops are still the most satisfying, rewarding and outstanding products I have the pleasure to enjoy in 30 years of monitoring HF. These ALA1530LNPs that shrug off the ever increasing noise from cheaply made junk electronics in my suburban neighborhood are the only dragon-slayers I need that keep the HF waterfalls deep quiet blue backgrounds and clear solid signals coming in year after year. I'll support Wellbrook as long as he is open and hope their many other happy customers do too.
Thanks
I couldn't agree more. I don't think it's smart or clever just copying someone's design. what would have been cleaver would be to have designed his own loop that out performs the Wellbrook. Perhaps that would have been to much of a challenge for him.
Regards Tony Westbrook.
Cheers, Tony.
Actually, the WellGood V3 is technically superior, using SMT parts and transistors with lower noise and higher bandwidth. A huge improvement over a vero board design.
That's not the point though is it, when he x-rayed the original circuit to elucidate the design, component by component and then add some mods. Come on, it's not that difficult to understand why this is wrong?!
Very well said…
Thanks...it needed saying
Well said🐻🤗👍
It's given me a massive headache taking the flak for this one, but I stand by the principle that re-engineering commercial equipment is not right.
@@OxfordShortwaveLog I have to agree it doesn't feel right making money out of someone else's idea.If you take an idea and improve it that's one thing but if you just reproduce it and give it another name it's a bit naughty.Mind you that's what copyright is for.🐻🤗👍
Yes, exactly. Thanks for your support. 73
Well said. No pun intended.
Lol thanks Mike.
Totally agree..
Thanks Michael.
The more people know about this the better.bad publicity for the other cheap skate party.cheers sir.
Cheers W.