I always wondered how Melkor would have responded to Sauron had he returned to Arda before Sauron was diminished after his Ring was destroyed. Would be be grateful that Sauron acted as a place holder? Would he have been furious that Sauron dared to claim his own name? Would Sauron really have stepped down from Dark Lord to Lieutenant again? Would they have fought? Would Sauron be so attacked that he might truly repent and aid the Valar in the Dagor Dagorath to try and save face rather than face the void forever? Sauron is such an interesting character.
I always felt that it would depend on sauron's perspective. Knowing Sauron to be as smart as he is, I think it's safe to say he would be able to perceive whether or not he could defeat or even match his previous master. Chances are he would not be able to, and would gracefully bend the knee, claiming that he kept his master's seat warm for him
I don't think Sauron envisioned the response of the Valar to the assault of the Numenoreans. He would never abdicate his power and I don't know that doing so was within his realm of imagination. I think the Valar and Eru surprised him with his response. Once rehoused in a body in Mordor, I'm sure it occurred to Sauron that with the Middle Earth made round and with Aman no longer attached he was free to do as he wished. The reshaping of Middle Earth seemed like the end of any sort of angelic intervention and he was the last angel standing (of consequence). Except for the drowning bit, Sauron had always been able to avoid the consequences of his actions, and the loss of his fana was a small price to pay for watching those upstart mortals slip screaming beneath a wall of water. Sauron could claim anything he wanted to after that. Who was there to stop him...and doesn't God-King have a nice ring to it? Who better to be a one stop shop for Authority in Arda? On a completely different note, It occurs to me that there is a parallel between Melkor's reaction to his tour of Tirion and Sauron's stay in Ost-in-Edhil. They go from grudgingly impressed, to jealous, to nihilistic in a heartbeat. Melkor plays Feanor as Sauron plays his grandson. If the Noldor ever make a new city in Arda, Rule Number One should be: Don't trust the "reformed" Dark Lord wanting to help out with "cool new ideas".
Nice thoughts, especially the parallels with Sauron and Morgoth and their reaction to impressive works of others. Both can appreciate it but both refuse to acknowledge it. Leading to both wanting to unmake that beauty. Maybe these ideas are one of the things Sauron developed through serving Melkor and straying from Aule.
Sauron like expected Ar-Pharazôn and his army to be destroyed, thereby destroying the majority of the fighting men of Númenor, but the sinking of the island he most certainly did not expect (or he would have been on a ship headed east as soon as the invasion fleet set sail westward).
There is actually a line in the Akallabeth (found in the Silmarillion) that actually directly states that Sauron was surprised by the reaction. If you read through it, you’ll find confirmation of your suspicion.
@@thesinofpride9433 Celebrimbor would certainly know of Sauron. However he is not named the Deceiverr for nothing and Annatar was the guise he was acquainted with in Hollin. Celebrimbor would not see Sauron for who he was until he came with an army to repossess the Rings of Power.
Sauron always wanted to be Worshiped as the great God-King and through the already Melkoristic believings in the east and south he claimed to be Morgoth returned who could rule as their foreign God
Of course. I say that at the end of the video. A good opportunity to secure that worship from those distant lands and a good opportunity to strike fear into those closer to home!
As always, feel free to ask questions for future Q&A videos. I have quite a backlog from previous videos! Feel free to subscribe to the channel if you haven't yet. All support is appreciated as I reach the grand landmark of...3 months since starting the channel.
I just watched this video on a German channel: ua-cam.com/video/Q5zvBAzNjWE/v-deo.html In short they pose the question: What if Morgoth somehow possessed the one ring? The conclusion is that it would not matter at all since Sauron is so much weaker than Morgoth to begin with and the ring in turn, contains just a fraction of Saurons original power. Quite a ridiculous but at the same time intriguing question I think. The comparison of how powerful Sauron was at his strongest with Morgoth at his weakest has been done before, but if you find the time for it, I would love to hear your take on it in a future video. From my reading of ToIkien I’m not as convinced as the Germans that the difference would be all that great. And thus I think the basis of their argument for the initial question is not totally valid. What would happen if Morgoth, by some incredible breaking of the timeline, got hold of the ring I have no idea. Probably still nothing is my initial feeling :P
@@purpan89 - The implication in some of the writings is that the One Ring would come to dominate anyone weaker than Sauron; therefore, the strongest of the Maia such as Eönwë and the Valar could posses the One Ring without being corrupted.
Excellent video with a couple references from Tolkien's letters. I saw the title for this video and couldn't remember reading anything about Sauron claiming he was Morgoth. I think I need to go back and read that book of his letters again, this time taking notes!
Tolkien's Letters often get neglected but there's an abundance of great info there. Hopefully, they keep getting neglected on here so I have unique videos haha.
" To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance" That quote spoke to me, profoundly. I think as humans were always looking to a higher authority, a higher power, what used to be God fearing authority has now been replaced with other things, science, Alien creators etc... Regardless of whether that authority is correct is irrelevant, I'm fascinated with the the idea that we as humans are searching for something greater than ourselves, and we're always ready to insert a new ideology, a new scientific belief, or a new theistic belief. Very fascinating topic, once again I begin to realize how much more there is to Tolkien's writings. Thank you for reading this and have a great day everyone.
Sauron claiming to be the Dark Lord, and Morgoth just makes sense. First off Melkor was given the name Morgoth (the dark enemy) by the elves, it is also akin to a title, not a personal name. With Melkor pushed beyond the veil, the Valar and most all of the Valar and Maiar no longer operating in Middle Earth itself, or willing to intercede directly in the affairs of Elves and Men (assuming that Sauron does NOT know that "the wise" are also Maiar as well), and accepting that the remaining Balrogs (if even know of) and Dragons are no good at politics, then that places Sauron clearly (in his knowledge space at the TOP of the food chain. So him taking the Moniker of the Dark Enemy, as the elves named his master so long ago is perfectly reasonable. After all, who is there among the lands to challenge his supremacy?
Are you going to make a video about ósanwe and other telepathic abilities from the Tolkien Legendarium? I find this topic really interesting and I think it would suit your content quite well because it isn't very well known.
1-it could be that this was simply another tool to assure is dominace of the world 2- could it be that Sauron was somehow demeted afetr is near death experience on Numenor? or simply hubrys? 3- sauron is an interesting character. he hide after the first age but soon began to play little dark lord. after witnessing the fall of Melkor and the wrath of the Valar where did he find the courage to do it? did he think that if he kept his realm small the ainur would not care? how does the mind of an immortal being work? did he just forget what happened?
His choice was the rational one. The options were to live despised, ignored, and forgotten somewhere in the wilderness, or take up Morgoth's mission. The first was unacceptable to a powerful being like Sauron, and the second was worth the risk, because he feared the direct intervention of the Valar less than he despised the condition of powerlessness. The fact that the world was reshaped by Eru with the events in Numenor, and the only tanglible intervention by the Valar was the sending of the Istari, emboldened him to the notion that the supreme powers of the universe were giving up on Middle Earth, and it was his to order, at least temporarily. You could ask something similar about Satan in Judeo-Christian mythology. Why rebel against an all-powerful God? Why do something when you know you can't win? Because that rebellion, that power you make for yourself, is the only thing that's yours. You want to create, order, and thrive on your own terms. You want lesser minds to worship you as god. And you know, on some level, that you can get away with this because it all ultimately serves God's plan. So you do your part, and indulge in your rebellion for a season. (which for an angel or Maia is a hell of a long time)
@@IPlayWithFire135 It's because of pride which blinds to the truth. A bit like when we are very angry and we act out on it but later we see what we did and can't believe we did it, we are similarly blinded by pride in many ways.
Oh, I haven't forgotten! I have already made my next 3 videos, and the 4th will be another Q&A one like this one. I will move the Varda one further up the list! Let's say it should appear in September then :)
I'd like to add that if 'Melkor's desire was 'to create' and 'to take possession of what he created without letting ever go' then 'Mairon' may have a similar characteristic that determined his story arc, e.g. *he de facto competes with Gandalf as the bringer of hope* , but in a corrupted form as *'the **_false hope_** of the cult of Melkor'* , _an ideology_ to legitimize his succession, but still characteristic of his mode of operation by predominantly cunning and eloquent diplomacy - instead of sole brute force. But as with 'a corrupted joy of creation', the point is the deeper 'joy of inspiring others', unredeemed at the heart of deception - at least if one takes the Christian background of Tolkien serious that turned casual stories for children into high art (I take it, the 'Silmarillion' goes far back into his youth in WW I, but always had an eschatological theme).
Great video, as always! Just read in the comments about the upcoming video about the Three Rings. Will it be covering the source of power of the Three? ;)
Thanks Anna, and no, this video will be a part of my inconsistencies series. It does include a bit of Celebrimbor speculation though. There will be more Three Rings content in the future of course!
@@TheRedBook Good to know! It's an intetesting topic, don't you think: what powered the Three? The One was powered by Sauron, but what about the Three, was it all about Celebrimbor?
@@annamnatsakanyan4040 - I do have my own thoughts about it and of "great works" in general. If the will of Sauron went into the One Ring to make the One Ring, why wouldn't the will of Celebrimbor be a part of the Three? Or is Sauron placing his will into the object what makes it so potent in the first place? It's an interesting discussion and I certainly want to cover that. I think the same thing of Feanor and the Silmarils. Breaking or unmaking them (if its even possible without his consent) may break his will because he has put so much of his heart into them. Good topics there I think...
@@annamnatsakanyan4040 - I tend to agree with it and it was the great spirit of Sauron that made his Great Ring the greatest. I wish there was more time to make all of these videos haha.
Lore on Sauron, I like it 😄 And I have two areas with questions. 1. Who controls the lightnings in Arda? Are they even under someone's control? Was Sauron hit by a lightning on the pinnacle of Morgoth's temple or does "defied" imply that he was spared? If the former is true, how did he survive the lightning? 2. Why do you think Eonwe did not detain Sauron? Did he consciously accept the possibility that Sauron would flee? And where were the Valar back then, did they even join the War of Wrath in person? I think there are no clear answers to some if not all questions I raised, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it 😁 Btw my favourite title is still "King of Men". Three words of only one syllable and yet more prestigious than most ruling titles in our own history, as they imply dominion over the whole of humanity. Except maybe for that Assyrian king who called himself "Master of the Universe" 🌌. And there was also this Chinese leader of the Taiping rebellion who proclaimed to be the son of God and brother of Jesus.
@@Crafty_Spirit It is likely he had orders from Manwe that dictated how he would react to various scenarios. Eonwe seems like a by-the-book kind of guy to me.
2. The simplest answer is that Sauron could not be physically detained because he was not wearing a physical form when he spoke with Eonwe. Or maybe Eonwe had pledged Sauron temporary immunity before he came to negotiate for his surrender. Eonwe is one of the good guys, so he would not try to capture Sauron by treachery.
I didn't even think of that and it makes sense lol. The black and white especially. Big fan of Fallout, even from the 90s, maybe it subconsciously influenced me? :D
@@nicholasi8700 in a corporate training class on personality types, it was mentioned that a rather significant percentage of CEOs were psychopaths. Stalin’s purge may have started as getting rid of anyone who was senior to home before he was top boss, then it took on a life of its own. Hitler did not purge many senior officials, though enemies were exceptions
if morgoth actually came back for Dagor Dagoroth (The Last war before everything was resang) Morgoth might have killed Sauron for impersonating him. For all intensive purposes Sauron might as well been Morgoth but he was nowhere near the power levels and I think people especially the wizards would have been able to see through that mainly because he cannot take any form he wishes or even a physical form yet. Morgoth never lost his he just lost his feet.! But I haven't listened to the video yet. I think the biggest reason is because Morgoth would have been powerful enough to take a physical form where sauron was not and he wanted to be worshiped because Morgoth is out of the picture. I don't think sauron was as bad as Morgoth so to speak. Morgoth did not cared who he killed he just wanted blind obedience. Sauron wanted order in his mind and it had a purpose for the way he was doing things not just overwhelming ego. Just my opinion though.
Tolkien's text says Morgoth returned but there's no indication this represents Sauron saying Melkor or Morgoth because Tolkien Uses Morgoth throughout the whole letter even saying "He had become a follower of Morgoth". Sauron would follow a figure he'd call Melkor.
@@TheRedBook Sauron would rather not follow anyone. And if it's Tolkien, as a narrator, saying "Morgoth returned" and not Sauron as a character, then it's a figure of speech. If Sauron said it about himself, he's declaring succession.
When you brought up the comparison of a human king claiming to be Genghis Khan or Alexander the Great. That is when everything fell in place. For Ceaser of Rome would leave such a mark on History that the Tsars of Russia and Kaisers of Germany would derive their kingly titles from his name. Which I now think was also Sauron’s intention.
I think there's more going on here, though this is an excellent introduction to the topic of Sauron taking on Morgoth's mantle and even identity. Had Sauron defeated the West in its entirety, and truly controlled all of Middle-Earth's inhabitants, I think he would have proceeded along his former master's plan to remove his subjects from any chance of grace in the afterlife. Tolkien refers to wraiths many times in his writings - is it not possible to conceive a dominion in which the souls of Men were prevented from moving onwards to receiving their Gift, as in to be ultimately reunited with Eru Iluvatar? Could that reservoir of corrupted spiritual beings not ultimately have served as a reservoir of power for Sauron, in perhaps reshaping Middle-Earth so that Valinor became vulnerable, and even Morgoth might be let loose again? From what we know of Sauron, it's hard to imagine that he'd be satisfied with simply winning a war and ruling over the world.
I don't know if these two elements are directly connected or overlapping. I remember that Tolkien mentioned that (insofar as he can hypothetically "theologically" identify such a thing in all his creations) if there is any element of "good" in Sauron, it would be his worship of Morgoth as actually greater than himself (which is also an original requirement for his affiliation). There is such a part, in any case, even though there might also be a temporary psychological period of this time you describe... But there are further quotes you then go on to read and discuss, which could serve to explain the reasons on their own, so...
I like your regular tone of voice; unless I’m mistaken and you are using it. I’m not trying to troll; just wish I could hear you more concisely. I dig your channel
Certainly not trolling. There's a way to give criticism without just being completely rude and your comment isn't rude. The audio production is certainly what I'd say is the weakest part of the videos at the moment. I don't know an awful lot about the audio processing, levels, etc. I think my most recent video was a step up cause I tried some things but I'm also planning on a better mic too. As for my voice. Volume, tone, style, that's just what I sound like. A few have complained about it but it's obviously something I couldn't and wouldn't change. I try to sound as clear as possible as it would be very possible for me to speak in a way no one outside of my country could probably understand :D . With each new video I try to improve the audio and I will be doing that again with my next one. But, the accent and style etc will never change. I want it to sound natural.
Curious that Sauron still tempted fate further from Eru having been obliterated in Numenor once before. Why did he fall to evil again? Seems unlikely to me after such an experience, such a being would not be tempted to do evil again. Did he want to be destroyed?
It's not a plot hole even if Tolkien didn't explain it. It's the pride of evil. Luckily for us, Tolkien did explain it. Sauron thought after Numenor that Eru washed his hands of Middle-earth and no longer cared for it. Effectively removing the West from it and isolating it. Meaning that Sauron was free to go ahead with his plans. Tolkien explains this in relation to the Wizards. With Sauron thinking they were representatives of the West hoping to recolonise.
There is one quote about him "taking up" the ring again when returning to Mordor. However, Tolkien says on more than one occasion that Sauron had, and used, the ring when he went to Numenor.
Yes from The Silmarillion - "Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself." Though, it does immediately say after that in the years after, he followed the path of his master. No longer serving another but only himself... "But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void."
Isn't this an inconsistency with the text? Sauron's servants never refer to him as "Morgoth", returned or otherwise. The Mouth of Sauron even specifically refers to him by his name. And given his personality, his ego, and his arrogance, I hesitate to think he'd want to be known or worshipped by anything other than his own self. In any case, I think this should be taken more in a metaphorical sense: like him proclaiming to wield just as much power and terror as the Dark Lord of ages past, not him literally claiming to be Morgoth.
Claiming to be "Melkor returned" wouldn't necessarily mean his servants would have to call him that. I don't even believe the Mouth of Sauron really called him Sauron and think it is the translation for our benefit. I'd certainly not think Sauron would want to be worshipped as Sauron but with one of his many other titles instead. I didn't say they would call him it though, i'm saying it as it speaks more of his ego, his claim over the world.
@@TheRedBook I didn't say worshipped by his specific "name", but by his own self. Whatever title he went by, I don't think he'd want his servants thinking they were following and worshipping any other person other than him. The translation may be a possible explanation, but at other points of the story his servants refer to him as the Great Eye and other titles, yet here he is addressed specifically by name. And there's also the title "Mouth of Sauron" to consider, which apparently was a name the character chose to himself.
Keep in mind that most of what we see is from people who oppose Sauron. They didn't seem to know or care about this claim beyond that they saw him as a servant or emissary of Melkor, if they even retained any knowledge of Melkor. This claim was made to those he believed he could win over to his side. It took him 3,000 years before he could re-enter Mordor and openly declare himself, he spent most of the third age in hiding or posing as another entity, the Necromancer. Maybe the 9 rings he gave to men aided him in this. It was a line that was mostly used with the men of the east and south. It's in line with him not being able to able to take a fair form and beguile men with sweet lies anymore. He simply claimed to be this dark god who had returned to take vengeance and if you wanted to survive you needed to take the right side. His servants had been laying the groundwork for this return over hundreds of years.
Sauron’s pretense to claim equality to Morgoth was arrogance exhibited by an increasingly twisted mind. He was a divine entity, indeed, yet not remotely the equal of his master. He was (arguably) not even as mighty as various peers; Melian seems to have been a Maia of such power that even Morgoth feared her, much less Sauron, who was subdued and wounded by her half Maia daughter, Luthien. So Melian seems to have been of a higher order even than Sauron. In the same way, he abased himself before Eonwe, who, as Tolkien described (I think) as mightiest of the Maiar, in conjunction with Ilmare, handmaid of Varda. Moreover, Sauron, though cunning and resourceful beyond all worldly tyrants after Morgoth’s exile, also feared certain of the High Eldar, as did his former Master. Tolkien emphasized that, due to Eru’s dispersion of gifts among his elven children, certain especially artful elves actually “surpassed the Valar in the glory of their Arts”-creating and doing things even the Valar could not do. So the “power dynamic” was highly nuanced in Tolkien’s mythology, and not always categorical, by any means. Feanor, for example, repelled Morgoth himself with a great act of forceful rejection (slamming the door in the god’s face). Morgoth was wounded for life by elvish art and combat skill. Sauron strove in vain against the perceptive powers and some magics of Galadriel, who was Feanor’s equal, according to Tolkien, while she pierced his consciousness. Likewise, Sauron feared the inherent power of a true and good human king like Aragorn. He surely must have feared Gandalf the resurrected, though apparently unaware of his transformation from Grey to White. Yes, raw strength for raw strength, Sauron was more powerful than any great Child of Eru, but if some of those unique Powers could outfox him by virtue of their unique Arts, Strengths, and Wisdom, he could be not only repelled by vanquished. Felagund matched him in magical combat until weakening at a crucial juncture. A mortal king was involved in his death in combat-it took three of to do it, and they perished, but those three “lesser” powers felled the great Maia. Sauron was more threatening in his legions than as an individual, his power dispersed by control of wills. Again, this all hearkens back to the fluid nature of sheer power and creative Art (magic/magical engineering) that some of the Caliquendi and High Numenoreans possessed in Tolkien’s mythos. Even with his ring, Sauron was beatable, as the Last Alliance denouement proved. He feared much more than his Master, Morgoth, but proclaiming himself as the returned Morgoth in the Third Age was just pure marketing from a comparative also-ran tyrant.
Hopefully you see this comment. I am obviously late to this party, but I am a Tolkien lover…here is my question; Does the worship of Melkor hold a religious title to it such as being Jewish or Buddhist in our world?
My next video is actually going to be about the worship of Melkor. But Tolkien describes it as a "satanist" form of worship. There's no name in world for it - but people tend to call it Melkorism.
If Sauron flees the destruction of Numenor as a greatly weakened 'spirit', unable to take form, and can much later reform himself, why can he not similarly "reconstitute" himself from a still-existing malevolent 'spirit' following the ring's destruction (given sufficient time, of course)?
Good question Todd. The difference is that he wasn't "greatly weakened" when Numenor fell. His power was still bound up in the ring and it existed. He was in rapport with it. Sauron without the ring was still Sauron, he just wasn't "enhanced". After the destruction of the ring, the vast majority of his native 'spirit' was removed from him completely. He became maimed, unable to muster the will to take shape. Broken.
@@TheRedBook I'm curious about your thoughts on Sauron recovering the ring from his fallen body in Numenor and returning it to Mordor. Tolkein suggests he does this as a spirit. This seems to imply there's a difference between his body being destroyed in Numenor compared to him being slain by Elendil and Gilgalad - as he's not able to recover the ring that time. It may be simply because in Numenor the ring was there for the taking (if a little soggy), whereas at the conclusion of the Last Alliance, Isildur claimed the ring for his own. Any theories?
Sauron's previous deaths weakened him very slightly, if at all. The destruction of the ring, however, diminished his power to the extent that he was simply a minor spirit, unable to make an impact on the physical world, and it's implied his vast intellect and ability to plan long term was lost. He's just an impotent cloud of rage in the 4th age, barely a memory of himself before the destruction of the ring, forever stewing in his defeat and unable to address it in any way.
@@TheRedBook didnt see the qvote mark first, its from a letter of Tolkien i see, thanks. Also remember reading one letter where Tolkien stats that Sauron at his hight (when he made the one ring and had it) actually was more powerfull than Morgoth at his end, because Morgoth had poured much of his power out.
@@jimbombadill - Yes, it's an interesting discussion on the 'effectiveness' of Sauron and how he utilised his power - even if his original state was far less in stature than Melkor at his height. It's a great topic that I'd like to cover as well.
@@TheRedBook another topic i been thinking about alot is Sarumans and Saurons connection to Aule and also Morgoths comparence to Aule, the difference of creation and possesion. Have you covered that in some video ?
Alexander himself claimed to be various Egyptian gods. This Sauron/Morgoth power argument is literally proved by your own script: Sauron had inherited the power and fame of Morgoth
It's interesting that in The Lord of the Rings itself, while it's obvious that nobody mentions Morgoth since he's from so long ago, Sauron's forces never propagated any notion of him being Morgoth returned. That would have been a far greater boast for him, no?
An interesting thought. We get titles like "Sauron the Great" which I still believe were translations in the Red Book. I am going to do a video on just that, probably in the "Inconsistencies" playlist.
@@TheRedBook It's quite obvious to me. Tolkien did not worry about continuity between LOTR and handwritten letters to friends or fans. So we have concepts and ideas that occurred concurrently with or after the book. Sauron being Morgoth returned, yet the complete absence of any notion in LOTR, is one such example.
@@MistaGify True. I was going to say it would be hard to work into the work because it speaks directly of Sauron's mind but Gandalf was very clued up on how Sauron thought. I suspect this Morgoth Returned business could have been conveyed to us through Gandalf's words.
@@TheRedBook That's a great idea! During "The Last Debate", when Gandalf talks about the apocalyptic future that awaits if Sauron wins, he could have brought up proclaiming himself as Morgoth returned. Just 1 sentence of "his old master who is now in the void. Infinitely eviler and cruelers and ambitious were his schemes, yet a cold comfort it will be. How much worse the First Age dark lord was compared to the one of this age."
@@MistaGify - I like it, it's still relatively vague like Sauron being described as an emissary but cool enough that those in the know would enjoy the reference to Morgoth without it being cheap.
why vallar didn't attack sauron as they did with morgoth and defete him , and it will be much easier cuse he is not vallar like melkor and save middle earth once and for all
Wherever Saurons spirit went to after his defeat in ME, do you think he would see/know of/ or be again, a servant of Morgoth, there in that place? OR will Sauron also return at the end times, and fight beside his original master once again? In the Bible , we know Jesus and his Father, GOD, the creator, are, after the old testament, essentially two separate entities, Jesus took the form of a man and has thus remained so, God is whatever form GOD is, but we dont find the same with Lucifer. he is both Lucifer AND Satan in one. But here in Tolkiens works, Morgoth, who may be considered Lucifer, has a servant below him, a separate entity, in the form of Sauron, but there is only ONE God, in the form of Eru iluvatar, and his high creations, the Ainur which could be viewed as the order of heavenly ARCHANGELS maybe.
There's next to no textual evidence about any role of Sauron in Dagor Dagorath. We have text speaking of Melkor's original power seeping its way back to him but this speaks of the nature of Morgoth's Ring and the sheer might of his original spirit. Sauron is apparently maimed forever. We'd have to think of some way for his own strength to be returned to him, or some power bestowed upon him. Morgoth used Sauron in the past because he was useful. There was no loyalty or anything of the sort. I'm sure that upon his return, Melkor would do things his way and would only attempt to use Sauron if he needed to.
@@TheRedBook "Letter 183..." I see it now in the top corner. My mistake. I removed my above statement. That's a weird thing for Tolkien to say, though. That is never once mentioned anywhere in the narrative of any of the novels, nor does Sauron use any symbology associated with Morgoth. Indeed, he openly uses iconography associated only with his own identity. He never uses the letter M or either of the full names of his old master. He refuses to let any name at all be used. I think the only time Melkor is referred to at all, even obliquely, Gandalf says that he is banished and Sauron was originally only a servant of him. Everyone involved knows exactly who he is and isn't. Boromir shows no confusion over the matter, so presumably Denethor knows as well.
I always wondered how Melkor would have responded to Sauron had he returned to Arda before Sauron was diminished after his Ring was destroyed. Would be be grateful that Sauron acted as a place holder? Would he have been furious that Sauron dared to claim his own name? Would Sauron really have stepped down from Dark Lord to Lieutenant again? Would they have fought? Would Sauron be so attacked that he might truly repent and aid the Valar in the Dagor Dagorath to try and save face rather than face the void forever? Sauron is such an interesting character.
I think Morgoth would repeat the treatment he gave to Maedros and then make an subjagated Sauron his Liutenant again to mock him.
I always felt that it would depend on sauron's perspective. Knowing Sauron to be as smart as he is, I think it's safe to say he would be able to perceive whether or not he could defeat or even match his previous master. Chances are he would not be able to, and would gracefully bend the knee, claiming that he kept his master's seat warm for him
I don't think Sauron envisioned the response of the Valar to the assault of the Numenoreans. He would never abdicate his power and I don't know that doing so was within his realm of imagination. I think the Valar and Eru surprised him with his response. Once rehoused in a body in Mordor, I'm sure it occurred to Sauron that with the Middle Earth made round and with Aman no longer attached he was free to do as he wished. The reshaping of Middle Earth seemed like the end of any sort of angelic intervention and he was the last angel standing (of consequence). Except for the drowning bit, Sauron had always been able to avoid the consequences of his actions, and the loss of his fana was a small price to pay for watching those upstart mortals slip screaming beneath a wall of water. Sauron could claim anything he wanted to after that. Who was there to stop him...and doesn't God-King have a nice ring to it? Who better to be a one stop shop for Authority in Arda?
On a completely different note, It occurs to me that there is a parallel between Melkor's reaction to his tour of Tirion and Sauron's stay in Ost-in-Edhil. They go from grudgingly impressed, to jealous, to nihilistic in a heartbeat. Melkor plays Feanor as Sauron plays his grandson. If the Noldor ever make a new city in Arda, Rule Number One should be: Don't trust the "reformed" Dark Lord wanting to help out with "cool new ideas".
Nice thoughts, especially the parallels with Sauron and Morgoth and their reaction to impressive works of others. Both can appreciate it but both refuse to acknowledge it. Leading to both wanting to unmake that beauty. Maybe these ideas are one of the things Sauron developed through serving Melkor and straying from Aule.
Sauron like expected Ar-Pharazôn and his army to be destroyed, thereby destroying the majority of the fighting men of Númenor, but the sinking of the island he most certainly did not expect (or he would have been on a ship headed east as soon as the invasion fleet set sail westward).
There is actually a line in the Akallabeth (found in the Silmarillion) that actually directly states that Sauron was surprised by the reaction. If you read through it, you’ll find confirmation of your suspicion.
I liked the second point, it's a nice parallel. Though, Celebrimbor would not have known him as anything else than Annatar - or do I remember wrong?
@@thesinofpride9433 Celebrimbor would certainly know of Sauron. However he is not named the Deceiverr for nothing and Annatar was the guise he was acquainted with in Hollin. Celebrimbor would not see Sauron for who he was until he came with an army to repossess the Rings of Power.
Sauron always wanted to be Worshiped as the great God-King and through the already Melkoristic believings in the east and south he claimed to be Morgoth returned who could rule as their foreign God
Of course. I say that at the end of the video. A good opportunity to secure that worship from those distant lands and a good opportunity to strike fear into those closer to home!
As always, feel free to ask questions for future Q&A videos. I have quite a backlog from previous videos! Feel free to subscribe to the channel if you haven't yet. All support is appreciated as I reach the grand landmark of...3 months since starting the channel.
Just subscribed Today! Love your videos and writings. Came from a link on Quora.
@@conniestone6251 - Thanks very much :)
I just watched this video on a German channel: ua-cam.com/video/Q5zvBAzNjWE/v-deo.html
In short they pose the question: What if Morgoth somehow possessed the one ring? The conclusion is that it would not matter at all since Sauron is so much weaker than Morgoth to begin with and the ring in turn, contains just a fraction of Saurons original power. Quite a ridiculous but at the same time intriguing question I think. The comparison of how powerful Sauron was at his strongest with Morgoth at his weakest has been done before, but if you find the time for it, I would love to hear your take on it in a future video.
From my reading of ToIkien I’m not as convinced as the Germans that the difference would be all that great. And thus I think the basis of their argument for the initial question is not totally valid. What would happen if Morgoth, by some incredible breaking of the timeline, got hold of the ring I have no idea. Probably still nothing is my initial feeling :P
@@purpan89 - The implication in some of the writings is that the One Ring would come to dominate anyone weaker than Sauron; therefore, the strongest of the Maia such as Eönwë and the Valar could posses the One Ring without being corrupted.
Did Sauron ever realize that the wizards were Maiar?
Excellent video with a couple references from Tolkien's letters. I saw the title for this video and couldn't remember reading anything about Sauron claiming he was Morgoth. I think I need to go back and read that book of his letters again, this time taking notes!
Tolkien's Letters often get neglected but there's an abundance of great info there. Hopefully, they keep getting neglected on here so I have unique videos haha.
" To wean one of the God-fearing from their allegiance it is best to propound another unseen object of allegiance" That quote spoke to me, profoundly. I think as humans were always looking to a higher authority, a higher power, what used to be God fearing authority has now been replaced with other things, science, Alien creators etc... Regardless of whether that authority is correct is irrelevant, I'm fascinated with the the idea that we as humans are searching for something greater than ourselves, and we're always ready to insert a new ideology, a new scientific belief, or a new theistic belief. Very fascinating topic, once again I begin to realize how much more there is to Tolkien's writings. Thank you for reading this and have a great day everyone.
Sauron claiming to be the Dark Lord, and Morgoth just makes sense. First off Melkor was given the name Morgoth (the dark enemy) by the elves, it is also akin to a title, not a personal name. With Melkor pushed beyond the veil, the Valar and most all of the Valar and Maiar no longer operating in Middle Earth itself, or willing to intercede directly in the affairs of Elves and Men (assuming that Sauron does NOT know that "the wise" are also Maiar as well), and accepting that the remaining Balrogs (if even know of) and Dragons are no good at politics, then that places Sauron clearly (in his knowledge space at the TOP of the food chain. So him taking the Moniker of the Dark Enemy, as the elves named his master so long ago is perfectly reasonable. After all, who is there among the lands to challenge his supremacy?
Perfect choice of music for the topic; another great well-researched vid, cheers :)
Need something sinister for the Morgoth and Melkor videos :D
@@TheRedBook yup gotta have the dark-ambient vibes for the bold boys!
Always interesting topics! Thanks and keep them coming - I look forward to the next video already :)
Thank you! Will be posting a video about the Three Rings on Saturday!
The background music is perfect. 😎
Are you going to make a video about ósanwe and other telepathic abilities from the Tolkien Legendarium? I find this topic really interesting and I think it would suit your content quite well because it isn't very well known.
Indeed. It will certainly come up. I have a nice idea for a video about Sauron discussing this
@@TheRedBook Oh, that's great!
To be so knowledgeable but have the simplest of knowledge escape you time and time again is true madness.
What is this in relation to?
@@TheRedBook Sauron not being able to figure out he was still part of the plan.
Thanks, the analogy to human rulers comparing themselves to those legends of past rulers, made this make a lot more sense than before.
1-it could be that this was simply another tool to assure is dominace of the world
2- could it be that Sauron was somehow demeted afetr is near death experience on Numenor? or simply hubrys?
3- sauron is an interesting character. he hide after the first age but soon began to play little dark lord. after witnessing the fall of Melkor and the wrath of the Valar where did he find the courage to do it? did he think that if he kept his realm small the ainur would not care? how does the mind of an immortal being work? did he just forget what happened?
His choice was the rational one. The options were to live despised, ignored, and forgotten somewhere in the wilderness, or take up Morgoth's mission. The first was unacceptable to a powerful being like Sauron, and the second was worth the risk, because he feared the direct intervention of the Valar less than he despised the condition of powerlessness. The fact that the world was reshaped by Eru with the events in Numenor, and the only tanglible intervention by the Valar was the sending of the Istari, emboldened him to the notion that the supreme powers of the universe were giving up on Middle Earth, and it was his to order, at least temporarily.
You could ask something similar about Satan in Judeo-Christian mythology. Why rebel against an all-powerful God? Why do something when you know you can't win? Because that rebellion, that power you make for yourself, is the only thing that's yours. You want to create, order, and thrive on your own terms. You want lesser minds to worship you as god. And you know, on some level, that you can get away with this because it all ultimately serves God's plan. So you do your part, and indulge in your rebellion for a season. (which for an angel or Maia is a hell of a long time)
@@IPlayWithFire135 It's because of pride which blinds to the truth. A bit like when we are very angry and we act out on it but later we see what we did and can't believe we did it, we are similarly blinded by pride in many ways.
Speaking of Morgoth, when will we get the 'Melkor`s relationship to Varda' video? There are some yet, who remember that it will come.
Oh, I haven't forgotten! I have already made my next 3 videos, and the 4th will be another Q&A one like this one. I will move the Varda one further up the list! Let's say it should appear in September then :)
@@TheRedBook Beautiful
I'd like to add that if 'Melkor's desire was 'to create' and 'to take possession of what he created without letting ever go' then 'Mairon' may have a similar characteristic that determined his story arc, e.g. *he de facto competes with Gandalf as the bringer of hope* , but in a corrupted form as *'the **_false hope_** of the cult of Melkor'* , _an ideology_ to legitimize his succession, but still characteristic of his mode of operation by predominantly cunning and eloquent diplomacy - instead of sole brute force.
But as with 'a corrupted joy of creation', the point is the deeper 'joy of inspiring others', unredeemed at the heart of deception - at least if one takes the Christian background of Tolkien serious that turned casual stories for children into high art (I take it, the 'Silmarillion' goes far back into his youth in WW I, but always had an eschatological theme).
Great video, as always! Just read in the comments about the upcoming video about the Three Rings. Will it be covering the source of power of the Three? ;)
Thanks Anna, and no, this video will be a part of my inconsistencies series. It does include a bit of Celebrimbor speculation though. There will be more Three Rings content in the future of course!
@@TheRedBook Good to know! It's an intetesting topic, don't you think: what powered the Three? The One was powered by Sauron, but what about the Three, was it all about Celebrimbor?
@@annamnatsakanyan4040 - I do have my own thoughts about it and of "great works" in general. If the will of Sauron went into the One Ring to make the One Ring, why wouldn't the will of Celebrimbor be a part of the Three? Or is Sauron placing his will into the object what makes it so potent in the first place? It's an interesting discussion and I certainly want to cover that. I think the same thing of Feanor and the Silmarils. Breaking or unmaking them (if its even possible without his consent) may break his will because he has put so much of his heart into them. Good topics there I think...
@@TheRedBook I think it's not about Sauron specifically, the will of any great individual could be passed on to something he or she creates...
@@annamnatsakanyan4040 - I tend to agree with it and it was the great spirit of Sauron that made his Great Ring the greatest. I wish there was more time to make all of these videos haha.
Did Melkor approve of Sauron claiming his identity? Was he insulted or just pleased that he was still seen as worthy to be imitated?
Unfortunately, we have absolutely no idea because Melkor is long gone by this time. Though, what we know of Melkor, I hardly think he'd be flattered!
@@TheRedBook - Do you think the Door of Night worked as an event horizon, with no information being able to pass through it when closed?
He didn’t know. Morgoth is stuck outside the world. He would presumably be pretty mad if he did find out.
@@tominiowa2513 I think that's probably a pretty good analogy. In fact, it seems exactly accurate.
Morgoth is in this case more a Title than a Name, like Augustus
Wow good to know 😮👏
👍👍
Another outstanding video thanks 😎👍👍
Such a well done video mate!
Thanks, Lucy! :)
Lore on Sauron, I like it 😄 And I have two areas with questions.
1. Who controls the lightnings in Arda? Are they even under someone's control? Was Sauron hit by a lightning on the pinnacle of Morgoth's temple or does "defied" imply that he was spared? If the former is true, how did he survive the lightning?
2. Why do you think Eonwe did not detain Sauron? Did he consciously accept the possibility that Sauron would flee? And where were the Valar back then, did they even join the War of Wrath in person?
I think there are no clear answers to some if not all questions I raised, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it 😁
Btw my favourite title is still "King of Men". Three words of only one syllable and yet more prestigious than most ruling titles in our own history, as they imply dominion over the whole of humanity. Except maybe for that Assyrian king who called himself "Master of the Universe" 🌌. And there was also this Chinese leader of the Taiping rebellion who proclaimed to be the son of God and brother of Jesus.
You mean the same Eonwe who let Maglor and Maedhros kill more of their kin and steal the two Silmarils?
@@Enerdhil Yes, he seems to be the merciful type. Even more so than Bilbo choosing to spare Gollum.
Regular humans survive being hit by lightning. Sauron, as a maia, could easily survive being hit by lightning.
@@Crafty_Spirit
It is likely he had orders from Manwe that dictated how he would react to various scenarios. Eonwe seems like a by-the-book kind of guy to me.
2. The simplest answer is that Sauron could not be physically detained because he was not wearing a physical form when he spoke with Eonwe. Or maybe Eonwe had pledged Sauron temporary immunity before he came to negotiate for his surrender. Eonwe is one of the good guys, so he would not try to capture Sauron by treachery.
i love the fallout feel your video gives. war,war never changes lol
I didn't even think of that and it makes sense lol. The black and white especially. Big fan of Fallout, even from the 90s, maybe it subconsciously influenced me? :D
He's not a Vala! He's a very naughty boy! 😉
I'd love to see a video on Sauronomics
Now suppose Morgoth did return and find that Sauron was claiming to be the big baddy, it would not go well for Sauron
I think he would be proud of his lieutenant for keeping his name alive
@@nicholasi8700 in a corporate training class on personality types, it was mentioned that a rather significant percentage of CEOs were psychopaths. Stalin’s purge may have started as getting rid of anyone who was senior to home before he was top boss, then it took on a life of its own. Hitler did not purge many senior officials, though enemies were exceptions
As a follower of morgoth everything u said is true.genius
Awesome ominous music 👌🏽
Oh yeah you need the music for some nice atmosphere. It helps with these topics :D
if morgoth actually came back for Dagor Dagoroth (The Last war before everything was resang) Morgoth might have killed Sauron for impersonating him. For all intensive purposes Sauron might as well been Morgoth but he was nowhere near the power levels and I think people especially the wizards would have been able to see through that mainly because he cannot take any form he wishes or even a physical form yet. Morgoth never lost his he just lost his feet.! But I haven't listened to the video yet. I think the biggest reason is because Morgoth would have been powerful enough to take a physical form where sauron was not and he wanted to be worshiped because Morgoth is out of the picture. I don't think sauron was as bad as Morgoth so to speak. Morgoth did not cared who he killed he just wanted blind obedience. Sauron wanted order in his mind and it had a purpose for the way he was doing things not just overwhelming ego. Just my opinion though.
Was he claiming to be "Melkor returned" or "Morgoth returned"? He may have been claiming to be the returned dark enemy using it as a title.
Tolkien's text says Morgoth returned but there's no indication this represents Sauron saying Melkor or Morgoth because Tolkien Uses Morgoth throughout the whole letter even saying "He had become a follower of Morgoth". Sauron would follow a figure he'd call Melkor.
@@TheRedBook Sauron would rather not follow anyone. And if it's Tolkien, as a narrator, saying "Morgoth returned" and not Sauron as a character, then it's a figure of speech. If Sauron said it about himself, he's declaring succession.
Subscribed! your videos are awesome thanks
Thanks for saying so Josh, and I'm glad you've decided to subscribe as well!
This is exactly what the Roman Princeps/Imperators/Domini would do when claiming the name of Caesar.
When you brought up the comparison of a human king claiming to be Genghis Khan or Alexander the Great. That is when everything fell in place. For Ceaser of Rome would leave such a mark on History that the Tsars of Russia and Kaisers of Germany would derive their kingly titles from his name.
Which I now think was also Sauron’s intention.
I think there's more going on here, though this is an excellent introduction to the topic of Sauron taking on Morgoth's mantle and even identity. Had Sauron defeated the West in its entirety, and truly controlled all of Middle-Earth's inhabitants, I think he would have proceeded along his former master's plan to remove his subjects from any chance of grace in the afterlife. Tolkien refers to wraiths many times in his writings - is it not possible to conceive a dominion in which the souls of Men were prevented from moving onwards to receiving their Gift, as in to be ultimately reunited with Eru Iluvatar? Could that reservoir of corrupted spiritual beings not ultimately have served as a reservoir of power for Sauron, in perhaps reshaping Middle-Earth so that Valinor became vulnerable, and even Morgoth might be let loose again? From what we know of Sauron, it's hard to imagine that he'd be satisfied with simply winning a war and ruling over the world.
I don't know if these two elements are directly connected or overlapping. I remember that Tolkien mentioned that (insofar as he can hypothetically "theologically" identify such a thing in all his creations) if there is any element of "good" in Sauron, it would be his worship of Morgoth as actually greater than himself (which is also an original requirement for his affiliation). There is such a part, in any case, even though there might also be a temporary psychological period of this time you describe...
But there are further quotes you then go on to read and discuss, which could serve to explain the reasons on their own, so...
I like your regular tone of voice; unless I’m mistaken and you are using it. I’m not trying to troll; just wish I could hear you more concisely. I dig your channel
Certainly not trolling. There's a way to give criticism without just being completely rude and your comment isn't rude. The audio production is certainly what I'd say is the weakest part of the videos at the moment. I don't know an awful lot about the audio processing, levels, etc. I think my most recent video was a step up cause I tried some things but I'm also planning on a better mic too.
As for my voice. Volume, tone, style, that's just what I sound like. A few have complained about it but it's obviously something I couldn't and wouldn't change. I try to sound as clear as possible as it would be very possible for me to speak in a way no one outside of my country could probably understand :D .
With each new video I try to improve the audio and I will be doing that again with my next one. But, the accent and style etc will never change. I want it to sound natural.
I claim to be Morgoth all the time. Hell I did it twice today before breakfast.
Curious that Sauron still tempted fate further from Eru having been obliterated in Numenor once before. Why did he fall to evil again? Seems unlikely to me after such an experience, such a being would not be tempted to do evil again. Did he want to be destroyed?
It's not a plot hole even if Tolkien didn't explain it. It's the pride of evil. Luckily for us, Tolkien did explain it. Sauron thought after Numenor that Eru washed his hands of Middle-earth and no longer cared for it. Effectively removing the West from it and isolating it. Meaning that Sauron was free to go ahead with his plans. Tolkien explains this in relation to the Wizards. With Sauron thinking they were representatives of the West hoping to recolonise.
I have always been under the impression that Sauron left the One Ring behind in Baradur when he surrendered to Ar-Pharazon.
There is one quote about him "taking up" the ring again when returning to Mordor. However, Tolkien says on more than one occasion that Sauron had, and used, the ring when he went to Numenor.
I heard a quote to the effect that the only thing that makes Sauron any less evil than Morgoth was that he served him for a while.
Yes from The Silmarillion - "Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself."
Though, it does immediately say after that in the years after, he followed the path of his master. No longer serving another but only himself...
"But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void."
Isn't this an inconsistency with the text? Sauron's servants never refer to him as "Morgoth", returned or otherwise. The Mouth of Sauron even specifically refers to him by his name. And given his personality, his ego, and his arrogance, I hesitate to think he'd want to be known or worshipped by anything other than his own self.
In any case, I think this should be taken more in a metaphorical sense: like him proclaiming to wield just as much power and terror as the Dark Lord of ages past, not him literally claiming to be Morgoth.
Claiming to be "Melkor returned" wouldn't necessarily mean his servants would have to call him that. I don't even believe the Mouth of Sauron really called him Sauron and think it is the translation for our benefit. I'd certainly not think Sauron would want to be worshipped as Sauron but with one of his many other titles instead.
I didn't say they would call him it though, i'm saying it as it speaks more of his ego, his claim over the world.
@@TheRedBook I didn't say worshipped by his specific "name", but by his own self. Whatever title he went by, I don't think he'd want his servants thinking they were following and worshipping any other person other than him.
The translation may be a possible explanation, but at other points of the story his servants refer to him as the Great Eye and other titles, yet here he is addressed specifically by name. And there's also the title "Mouth of Sauron" to consider, which apparently was a name the character chose to himself.
Keep in mind that most of what we see is from people who oppose Sauron. They didn't seem to know or care about this claim beyond that they saw him as a servant or emissary of Melkor, if they even retained any knowledge of Melkor. This claim was made to those he believed he could win over to his side. It took him 3,000 years before he could re-enter Mordor and openly declare himself, he spent most of the third age in hiding or posing as another entity, the Necromancer. Maybe the 9 rings he gave to men aided him in this. It was a line that was mostly used with the men of the east and south. It's in line with him not being able to able to take a fair form and beguile men with sweet lies anymore. He simply claimed to be this dark god who had returned to take vengeance and if you wanted to survive you needed to take the right side. His servants had been laying the groundwork for this return over hundreds of years.
Sauron’s pretense to claim equality to Morgoth was arrogance exhibited by an increasingly twisted mind. He was a divine entity, indeed, yet not remotely the equal of his master. He was (arguably) not even as mighty as various peers; Melian seems to have been a Maia of such power that even Morgoth feared her, much less Sauron, who was subdued and wounded by her half Maia daughter, Luthien. So Melian seems to have been of a higher order even than Sauron. In the same way, he abased himself before Eonwe, who, as Tolkien described (I think) as mightiest of the Maiar, in conjunction with Ilmare, handmaid of Varda.
Moreover, Sauron, though cunning and resourceful beyond all worldly tyrants after Morgoth’s exile, also feared certain of the High Eldar, as did his former Master. Tolkien emphasized that, due to Eru’s dispersion of gifts among his elven children, certain especially artful elves actually “surpassed the Valar in the glory of their Arts”-creating and doing things even the Valar could not do. So the “power dynamic” was highly nuanced in Tolkien’s mythology, and not always categorical, by any means. Feanor, for example, repelled Morgoth himself with a great act of forceful rejection (slamming the door in the god’s face). Morgoth was wounded for life by elvish art and combat skill. Sauron strove in vain against the perceptive powers and some magics of Galadriel, who was Feanor’s equal, according to Tolkien, while she pierced his consciousness. Likewise, Sauron feared the inherent power of a true and good human king like Aragorn. He surely must have feared Gandalf the resurrected, though apparently unaware of his transformation from Grey to White. Yes, raw strength for raw strength, Sauron was more powerful than any great Child of Eru, but if some of those unique Powers could outfox him by virtue of their unique Arts, Strengths, and Wisdom, he could be not only repelled by vanquished. Felagund matched him in magical combat until weakening at a crucial juncture. A mortal king was involved in his death in combat-it took three of to do it, and they perished, but those three “lesser” powers felled the great Maia. Sauron was more threatening in his legions than as an individual, his power dispersed by control of wills. Again, this all hearkens back to the fluid nature of sheer power and creative Art (magic/magical engineering) that some of the Caliquendi and High Numenoreans possessed in Tolkien’s mythos. Even with his ring, Sauron was beatable, as the Last Alliance denouement proved. He feared much more than his Master, Morgoth, but proclaiming himself as the returned Morgoth in the Third Age was just pure marketing from a comparative also-ran tyrant.
Hopefully you see this comment. I am obviously late to this party, but I am a Tolkien lover…here is my question; Does the worship of Melkor hold a religious title to it such as being Jewish or Buddhist in our world?
My next video is actually going to be about the worship of Melkor. But Tolkien describes it as a "satanist" form of worship. There's no name in world for it - but people tend to call it Melkorism.
If Sauron flees the destruction of Numenor as a greatly weakened 'spirit', unable to take form, and can much later reform himself, why can he not similarly "reconstitute" himself from a still-existing malevolent 'spirit' following the ring's destruction (given sufficient time, of course)?
Good question Todd. The difference is that he wasn't "greatly weakened" when Numenor fell. His power was still bound up in the ring and it existed. He was in rapport with it. Sauron without the ring was still Sauron, he just wasn't "enhanced".
After the destruction of the ring, the vast majority of his native 'spirit' was removed from him completely. He became maimed, unable to muster the will to take shape. Broken.
@@TheRedBook I'm curious about your thoughts on Sauron recovering the ring from his fallen body in Numenor and returning it to Mordor. Tolkein suggests he does this as a spirit. This seems to imply there's a difference between his body being destroyed in Numenor compared to him being slain by Elendil and Gilgalad - as he's not able to recover the ring that time. It may be simply because in Numenor the ring was there for the taking (if a little soggy), whereas at the conclusion of the Last Alliance, Isildur claimed the ring for his own. Any theories?
Sauron's previous deaths weakened him very slightly, if at all. The destruction of the ring, however, diminished his power to the extent that he was simply a minor spirit, unable to make an impact on the physical world, and it's implied his vast intellect and ability to plan long term was lost. He's just an impotent cloud of rage in the 4th age, barely a memory of himself before the destruction of the ring, forever stewing in his defeat and unable to address it in any way.
when co-worker claim as boss lol
in what book and where does Sauron claim to be "morghot returned" ?
Read the quote in the video, it's all sourced.
@@TheRedBook didnt see the qvote mark first, its from a letter of Tolkien i see, thanks. Also remember reading one letter where Tolkien stats that Sauron at his hight (when he made the one ring and had it) actually was more powerfull than Morgoth at his end, because Morgoth had poured much of his power out.
@@jimbombadill - Yes, it's an interesting discussion on the 'effectiveness' of Sauron and how he utilised his power - even if his original state was far less in stature than Melkor at his height. It's a great topic that I'd like to cover as well.
@@TheRedBook another topic i been thinking about alot is Sarumans and Saurons connection to Aule and also Morgoths comparence to Aule, the difference of creation and possesion. Have you covered that in some video ?
Credibility. The orcs swore alliance to Morgoth not Sauron
No one is more goth than Melkor
I assumed him claiming to be Morgoth was like Gandalf (the white) claiming to be Saruman, or as Saruman should have been. Not literal.
Alexander himself claimed to be various Egyptian gods. This Sauron/Morgoth power argument is literally proved by your own script: Sauron had inherited the power and fame of Morgoth
That's why I wrote the script haha.
It's interesting that in The Lord of the Rings itself, while it's obvious that nobody mentions Morgoth since he's from so long ago, Sauron's forces never propagated any notion of him being Morgoth returned. That would have been a far greater boast for him, no?
An interesting thought. We get titles like "Sauron the Great" which I still believe were translations in the Red Book. I am going to do a video on just that, probably in the "Inconsistencies" playlist.
@@TheRedBook It's quite obvious to me. Tolkien did not worry about continuity between LOTR and handwritten letters to friends or fans. So we have concepts and ideas that occurred concurrently with or after the book. Sauron being Morgoth returned, yet the complete absence of any notion in LOTR, is one such example.
@@MistaGify True. I was going to say it would be hard to work into the work because it speaks directly of Sauron's mind but Gandalf was very clued up on how Sauron thought. I suspect this Morgoth Returned business could have been conveyed to us through Gandalf's words.
@@TheRedBook That's a great idea! During "The Last Debate", when Gandalf talks about the apocalyptic future that awaits if Sauron wins, he could have brought up proclaiming himself as Morgoth returned.
Just 1 sentence of "his old master who is now in the void. Infinitely eviler and cruelers and ambitious were his schemes, yet a cold comfort it will be. How much worse the First Age dark lord was compared to the one of this age."
@@MistaGify - I like it, it's still relatively vague like Sauron being described as an emissary but cool enough that those in the know would enjoy the reference to Morgoth without it being cheap.
Envy
why vallar didn't attack sauron as they did with morgoth and defete him , and it will be much easier cuse he is not vallar like melkor and save middle earth once and for all
Check out my video called Of the Valar in Middle earth and I talk about that :)
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Go home Sauron, you're drunk!
Wherever Saurons spirit went to after his defeat in ME, do you think he would see/know of/ or be again, a servant of Morgoth, there in that place? OR will Sauron also return at the end times, and fight beside his original master once again? In the Bible , we know Jesus and his Father, GOD, the creator, are, after the old testament, essentially two separate entities, Jesus took the form of a man and has thus remained so, God is whatever form GOD is, but we dont find the same with Lucifer. he is both Lucifer AND Satan in one. But here in Tolkiens works, Morgoth, who may be considered Lucifer, has a servant below him, a separate entity, in the form of Sauron, but there is only ONE God, in the form of Eru iluvatar, and his high creations, the Ainur which could be viewed as the order of heavenly ARCHANGELS maybe.
There's next to no textual evidence about any role of Sauron in Dagor Dagorath. We have text speaking of Melkor's original power seeping its way back to him but this speaks of the nature of Morgoth's Ring and the sheer might of his original spirit. Sauron is apparently maimed forever. We'd have to think of some way for his own strength to be returned to him, or some power bestowed upon him. Morgoth used Sauron in the past because he was useful. There was no loyalty or anything of the sort. I'm sure that upon his return, Melkor would do things his way and would only attempt to use Sauron if he needed to.
Thats an interesting idea that atheism weakens resistance to tyranny.
When and where did Sauron claim this? I don't ever remember reading this.
It's in the video
@@TheRedBook ***redacted due to inaccuracy***
@The Radge Gadgie it's on the video, man. The quote where it says he was Morgoth returned. Every quote I use has attribution.
@@TheRedBook "Letter 183..." I see it now in the top corner. My mistake. I removed my above statement.
That's a weird thing for Tolkien to say, though. That is never once mentioned anywhere in the narrative of any of the novels, nor does Sauron use any symbology associated with Morgoth. Indeed, he openly uses iconography associated only with his own identity. He never uses the letter M or either of the full names of his old master. He refuses to let any name at all be used. I think the only time Melkor is referred to at all, even obliquely, Gandalf says that he is banished and Sauron was originally only a servant of him. Everyone involved knows exactly who he is and isn't. Boromir shows no confusion over the matter, so presumably Denethor knows as well.
Its amazing how tolkien knew that gods abscence would cause worship of evil
At least in Arda that is the case!
I don't believe I "walk in darkness" but can see why many believers would hold that view. That's up to them.
It's will not be very awesome 😒