The Hidden Mechanics of CO Powers
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- Опубліковано 17 сер 2021
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The Hidden Mechanics of CO Powers In Advance Wars
#switch #advancewars #nintendo - Ігри
What do you think about all these hidden, convoluted mechanics? Do you think they are good for the game? And do you think they will be present in the reboot?
I mean they do because it's advance wars reboot it should be same
Do a beginner's mistake video, that will get lots of views
Don't terrain stars each give you UnitHP% defence rather than a flat 10%? And does anything in any game allude to this?
Without a doubt, the real question is how will the handle online. Will it be you have 2 versions of each CO? Or perhaps will we get rebalanced COs for online? I just hope wayforward can deliver.
The COmeter increasing value for each (S)COP is pretty balanced imo actually never actually explained. It still doesnt stop COs like Adder from spamming their powers but it's a little setback so the enemy has some breathing room to catch up. As for their presence, let's hope WF is actually aware of them to begin with lol
'You killed tons of my soldiers many of them have families to feed and you also destroy bilions of dollars in planes and tanks'
Oh hey the CO power is full let's pop it :D
Funny how only one CO has the “average” meter speed.
Because Drake is a lone wolf sigma male
I would've called the speeds "fast" for 25K, "average" for 30K, "slow" for 40K, and "very slow" for 50K. This way, "average" would've been represented by the most COs.
Should just be called "middle"
Pfp (Profile picture) and / or Banner Sauce (Source [Artist])? 🗿
I think the “average” ratingsz was just called that by the dataminersz lolszzszerzsz, i doubt itsz wasz statedsz likesz thatsz in the actualszs gameszs codesz.
"Using a CO Power 10 times in 1 Game is super rare" Adder, Are you challenging Me?
heh guys like him and colin can pull that off with ease. it's guys like sturn, von grom, and the like that will struggle with that.
Hawke against Sasha
Mangs: CO powers are probably one of the most exciting mechanics of Advance Wars
Me: As long as you’re not on the receiving end of them
The Super Power theme is super exciting, but when it plays for someone else, it's screaming at you: "You are ^#&$*> screwed."
There's no better feeling than pressing the funny button -laughs in eagle
Much funnier if it has I.Funny watermark
Haha Winter Fury go brrr
We need drake to tsunami them away
@@soulhoney1227 Fat Aquaman
Laugh in 20 Mechs spawn
I think the penalty you get for each use of your CO power is also to compensate for the fact that as a match progresses you're increasingly likely to take bigger, more costly engagements each turn. You're probably going to be losing/killing a lot more value on day 20 compared to day 5.
If you even get to take an engangement on day 5 because sometimes that just ain't happening
Definitely. CO powers in practice charge much faster as the game goes on. When you start, you're just playing the capture game, and get little to no CO Power. Then you start prodding each others defenses, and it starts to charge slowly. Then you start getting so intertwined that constant conflict is inevitable, and you charge quickly.
Eagle: "do you know how it feel s to get hit twice in a turn?"
Every other CO: "No.."
Eagle: "would you like to?"
Tag in Dual strike: make it 3
“So you’re a CO due to being able to command the tactics of a whole bunch of platoons?”
“Oh no, I just give them daily training and then break reality every now and then. My advisor does all the tactical stuff for me!”
“...”
“I even let the advisor control my units if I have one!”
“...”
to be fair, every *other* CO commands their own troops, it's just the player CO specifically who runs under the new advisor system, so it could just be that the term hasn't been updated yet in-universe
@@aldar8240 The system of an advisor only applies in AW1 and is scratched from the remake. Also in the final mission that applies to more COs.
@@projectpitchfork860 while that's true, that just provides more justification for why the CO term wasn't updated in-universe
"My super power is super strength and flying! What is yours?"
"My power is climate change. The only catch is that it requires the sacrifice of the brave soldiers and the high cost of vehicles to activate it."
"..."
Olaf can stop global warming.
The only question is if you are willing to give your life for that purpose.
"Weaklings. I can heal anyone and repair damaged vehicles around me in a three square meter radius as long as I have the cash to do so."
I love how cute they made sami look in re-boot camp.
As much as I like sonya and Rachel they really are making sami the face of advance wars.
And I mean she deserves it.
Waforward is always on point with waifu bait and music. Its the male characters and 3d that are usually their weak spot honestly (if it was their pixel work it'd be phenomenal, their 3d has always been subar)
@@bobdole27 the male characters in the remake look amazing dont @ me
@@leomassafm160 Ehhhh... I like Olaf i guess...
@@bobdole27 Only shit design is Max. The rest are good, especially Grit, Kanbei, and Eagle.
Here's hoping Hawke does not disappoint. And that they give Adder shark teeth to make him more snake-like.
@@user-sv6ww3jo9c Expect Hawke to just move his face and balance his body a little, he is a calm man, that stops at nothing, even if he ends up looking rare, his character will remain cool, because his design it is.
I think the most contentious mechanic is the diminishing returns system. I think it could be improved by having separate counters for normal and super powers so that players who weave them could eke out extra advantages.
Obviously the specific mechanics should be explained somewhere for players. Maybe not in a tutorial but the guide/help section in game.
Giving players an honest number rather than a general bar would also be nice, especially if the diminishing returns were made explicit (ie after the first time Colin uses gold rush, the second time it would say 0/19800 instead of 0/18000.
A previous turn recap screen could even list units lost, gold value lost and CO power gained to give players more info to make good decisions.
Yah, I really dislike the dual-punishment of normal CO powers. The extra cost if you have too many stars, and the increasing cost the same as using your SCO. Normal powers are already generally not used much for most COs. This just makes them all the worse.
My guess is that the 200% on the 10th power is used as a stalemate breaker, or it's like what you said a bug.
Or that using co powers is a fun part of the game so they still want the players to use it
Or it could be a patch to fix an overflow bug.
@@timothystamm3200
Aww.
Imagine Colin requiring only -255% of his normal power requirement.
my theory is that it was originally going to go up by 10% instead of 20%, and the 200% cap at the 10th power was put in place at that point. However, when they changed it to be 20%, they most likely forgot to update this to 300%.
> It is probably best not to use several CO Normal Powers in row
(Laughs in Gold Rush and Sideslip)
Exceptions being colin and adder and sensei.
@@Nitosa Funnily enough, he did mention Colin and Sensei, but not Adder
If the math is right, the COP would be worth 23,400 funds taking the 20% power cost penalty into account. So assuming Adder's power in total is worth 45k, that means it leaves 21,600 in the charge, which means you can pop another Sideslip.Taking into account the fact that the second COP will be 20% more expensive, this actually leaves the exact amount of charge you will need to activate it again, since you get 3600 out of the 20% of 18k. Add it, and you get 21,600.
It's rather risky because the stars will now take 12,600 funds to charge each after pulling off such a thing, considering the game will up the CO power's cost even if you use the little power.
Title should probably be ‘In Advance Wars 1 & 2’ as it clearly doesn’t include Dual Strike and Days of Ruin :P
Days of Ruin is fine, but leaving Dual Strike aside is not nice, as it's still the same Power system
@@uandresbrito5685 It’s not. Footsoldiers give extra meter.
@@meathir4921 Same power system. Having slightly different mechanics don't change that. Also no need for including it into the video if there weren't any differences(and there are(
@@uandresbrito5685 “There’s changes but it’s the same system”… so it’s not the same system? Not only do footsoldiers provide increased bar, but they provide a universal +10FP in addition to the +10DEF from AW2. It’s a pretty significant difference; it’s why a CO like Sasha is weak in DS but strong in AWBW (which uses AW2 charging mechanics but +10FP/+10DEF on powers like in DS).
@@meathir4921 if i change out my cars tires, or engine. Its still the same car.
I think the game could explain rather simply that a CO's power is worth X funds and the rates at which you gain those (50% by defeating an enemy unit, 100% by losing your own), and that powers get more expensive the more you use them. It wouldn't hurt new or returning players at all having that info explained in game.
I think the reason of how one can't spam little power twice is how the next pop it will cost more by 20% just like you said so at that point now you lack the 20% for the next pop
Very smart, that's probably the answer. You could confirm that on AWBW by noting the value's current and maximum values before and after using your little power (while the super is charged)
And considering is a preventative measure to stop a potential abuse of making your troops withstand longer for technically 4 events throughout 2 days just imagine COs with low cost powers being able to do so so much
Your turn 1 event
Enemy turn 2 events
Your turn 3 events
Enemy turn 4 events
An example would be if you're playing Flak. You have Barbaric Blow (54000 power) ready, but since your position is such that you're better off using Brute Force (27000), you do that instead. You still have 27000 power in reserve, but the cost of the next Brute Force went up to 32400, so you're short 5400 power (exactly half a star) for that.
I didn't realize until this explained that CO power meter gain was based on unit fund cost. ...That's wild to me that even after seeing the "30000, 40000, 50000" numbers so often, I never pieced together that they were linked. YES they should be freaking explained!
The only one that probably benefits outright from just using the Normal Power repeatedly or in place of the Super, is Adder. You either get a little tougher and move farther, or you get a little tougher and move farther still. You can usually push and prepare considerably easier with just the +1 as is. Can't hurt to be extra tough for two turns in a row.
And Colin. Colin's super power is generally only useful as a "win more" button.
"You underestimate my power!"
Reply: "yeah? Well you don't even truly understand MY power."
One thing i've wondered that will probably never get answered is whether or not CO powers something people are born with or are they taught and trained it at CO school. If its the former and CO powers just work like super powers held by special individuals , then the CO schools would exist for them to cultivate these powers and would explain why children like Andy, Lash, and Collin are allowed to lead armies. If its the latter then what exactly would be the process, especially since some CO powers can cause literal damage (like how Hawke killed Sturm with his). Either way there's probably no answer to this, its just something that keeps me up at night sometimes.
Yeah, you are not supposed to really think that much about it. CO powers are just cool abilities that they possess for some reason.
Does Olaf actually have some sort of weather device that makes it snow? No. His troops are just accustomed to fighting in the snow, and his CO power just represents the changing climate.
Does Andy run around on the battlefield repairing things with his wrench? No. His repair based powers is just a representation of his all-around abilities.
Never pop a premature Blizzard
Blizzard's popped one or two prematures lately. Blame Activision.
If you do, winter furries will appear instead.
@@theblackx9429 Ah yes, winter furries. They’re like regular furries, except they go skiing in their fursuits and really like hot chocolate.
If they could simplify things and actually explain them in reboot camp, that would be great
I allways find odd about drake design in the reboot, the guy ate too many donut in one shift
@soul honey reborn Lol I think he looks off too
kanbei also looks very off
@@PaperMario To me he doesn’t, aside from his animation in which he’s frustrated lol
Are you planning on analysing the treehouse presentation of Advance Wars 1+2 Reboot Camp?
...Nice. Good to have a thorough explanation.
I think it's perfectly fine to leave all of this info unexplained on the dev's side.
It's neat to find out the details all these years later (thanks for making this video), but knowing all of this while playing would have made almost no difference.
Or at least, the parts that do really make a difference (finding out you cant charge the next power while the current one is active) are things that I already observed while playing.
Not to mention, it would probably be way too overwhelming to try and teach this during gameplay. Like, imagine you're playing Advance Wars for the first time, and during the tutorial Nell is like "Okay I'm gonna learn you about CO Powers. Grab a pen and a snack, this'll take a while and there'll be homework..."
IIRC there IS a line in BHR's campaign that mentions Adder not being good in long fights due to his power costing more, but it's kind of a throwaway since you get Sensei that mission
The sheer amount you have to dig for with this series is absurd.
I''d like to imagine that Mangs as a teacher is cosplaying as a male Sonja
Nice vid btw
Imagine panzegraff as male jess
@@soulhoney1227 We need that giant pencil.
@@soulhoney1227 that sort of already exists
He should teach while in his Flak cosplay
@@Hone_mor2525 Eggonomics
And then there's Dual Strikes.
We don't talk about Dual Strikes.
2:22 "Hey I've seen this one before!"
Great video, all mechanics I wondered about but was not sure about !
Very interesting details behind the powers. Thank you for gathering all these informations!
So with the star functions, at the end, pretty much I saw it make sense since you mentioned the CO powers increases the cost by 20%, so it is not necessarily that it costs you 20% more, just the visual fact the cost increase is applied after you popped it
This is what I was wondering. I trust Mangs generally, but he's wrong often enough that I'd want confirmation that it is NOT this before accepting it as true.
However, some back of the envelope math based on the Drake example would suggest that there IS that +20% cost penalty. If it was just the increased star price, then he should have 2.5 stars. But the 1.5 stars he has matches there being an extra 20% cost on top of things. I'm not 100% confident in my math though.
That being said, there is still the question... "More stars than you need". Does this mean that if you just have 1 extra star you have to pay the penalty price? What if you want to activate it ASAP, but your opponent damages your units into getting another star. Then you have to pay the penalty! That's... kind of a dumb mechanic, if you ask me, especially since double regular CO power is rarely better than just popping your SCO power.
Colin is actually a CEO not a CO.
...But
Wait.
The extra co cost when your on your way to a scop also means that often if your stars suddenly hike up than you might as well wait for the scop (which is even more true and more common in dual strike)
meanwhile Sasha in Dual Strike: What CO power? *deletes your gauge*
There's also Dual Strike, where they changed from stars being worth X amount of funds to each unit producing a different number of stars. It was even more convoluted and ended up mostly just having faster CO power charge in general.
No wonder even using Sasha that I can only stall tag powers slightly
I beat Days of Ruin before ever realizing how to use COs in any capacity. I must have skipped the tutorial and assumed it was a CPU only thing, like the unique items in Super Mario Kart.
I relied heavily on terrain bonuses and early capture strategies to beat Caulder. I thought the game was until reasonably hard until one day I noticed the CO power option when I was messing around in war room.
The CO Power activation dropping from 280% to 200% might not actually be an oversight.
I suspect it's a deadlock breaking mechanic. If the game has gone on long enough to have 10 CO power activations, that likely means neither player is able to get the upperhand.
But suddenly, the player that's had more CO power activations now starts getting the power more frequently, which should skew the game to their advantage and break the deadlock.
The diminishing returns in the first place is likely to actually even out the amount CO powers happen. Early game, you've got cheap units, and a cheap CO power. Late game, expensive units, expensive CO power. If balanced right, the rate of filling should be much more even than without the increasing cost.
Loving all the advanced wars content keep it up !
The fact that I know that 10 percent defense thing is great it felt a little whack not having any bonuses at all when playing Adder but even that small buff will help capture cities.
I think I'll use this time to bring up how they work in DoR/DC, because those are done in quite the interesting fashion.
Every CO Meter in DoR has the exact same size. Twelve bars, divided in half to denote the points when the CO Zone expands by 1, and then by 2 (and enabling the CO Power's use). Each of those bars is worth 5 Hit Points. Regardless of the value of the unit you kill, every one will reward you up to 2 bars of Charge depending on how much health damage you're able to deal. That means you can max out your gauge by killing at least 6 units of any value, which is an interesting take on discouraging cheap unit spam, I'd imagine.
The caveat to this is that the Aggressor needs to be in the CO Zone in order for Charge to be earned. That's important to note, because with Tabitha/Larissa, she gains *zero* charge from counterattacking initially. Once she gets the first half filled and the Zone expands, then she'll be able to earn charge from counterattacks. That's the one aspect of the whole mechanics that I actually had to just go back to check manually, because *everywhere* I looked online said that wasn't the case, but it actually is.
EDIT: I'll add another (expected) addition to the requirements for Charge to be added, specifically to the Counter-attacking part. For counter-attack damage to count, *both* the enemy and friendly unit need to be in the CO Zone. That means with a CO Zone of 1, only the CO unit will be able to accrue Counter charge, and any friendly units 1 tile away will not.
Let me know what you think in the comments below.
I have the feeling that every time you make this kind of videos, Sensei gets stronger
5:10 And/or they wanted to have powers also available earlier in matches and without them being usable every other turn later, evening out their appearance rate
I just noticed how there are 5 terrain stars. Is that for Drake in the port?
Oh right, I forgot that was the only way to get the 5th star... but yes. I think that's the only way to get 5 stars, outside of Lash's SCO (although even that never generates 5 stars...)
@@Sines314 AW1 though
Mangs, can you please do a video tutorial showing the proper way to use APCs and T-Copters?
Simple. You put stuff in, move and drop the stuff all the way around.
Mangs talks about this in his video about Wargroove beginner mistakes. He mentions wagons instead of APCs, but the idea is the same: how to move infantry efficiently through vehicles.
An oddity in the AW1 powers: If the 10% all-power bonus is in fact a thing and being applied to all COs when they use a power, then Kanbei's Morale Boost is even more terrible than you might think.
AW1 Kanbei has a baseline 120/120. Based on the CO power bonus, the Universal boost effect makes him 132/132. We know it is multiplicative and includes baseline day-to-day bonuses in this calculation due to how Max's power works, going from 150->170 and then finalizing at 187.
Kanbei's Morale Boost sets his stats to 140/130 for that turn. And no, this is not 'before' the Universal boost, this is including it, which I tested in the Re-boot camp, the damage %s do in fact show it to be a 140/130 total.
This means that the actual bonuses given by Morale Boost are +8/-2 .. yes. Kanbei's AW1 COP *reduces* his defense by 2%, then gives him the +12% Universal boost bonus. And the actual attack increase is only +8%, as the other 12 is being granted by said Universal boost bonus. Based on the values granted in AW2, it seems like it was intended to be 140/130 and then the Universal to apply after, but.. it doesn't. So either the 10% Universal is not actually a thing, or, it is only a thing for some certain commanders and not others, or, Kanbei's COP Morale Boost is actually *reducing* his army's Defense value for that turn..
Another COP with weird numbers in AW1 due to this is Sami.. her baseline footsoldiers are 120/110, and with Double Time they become 155/125. With +12/+11 of that being the Universal, that means Double Time is giving +23/+4 .. which at least is a bonus, but it is a really weird bonus amount..
AW1 Sturm campaign version goes from 130/80 to 150/90 .. which means his power is giving +7/+2, with the other +13/+8 from the Universal ..
The exact values here might be a point off due to how the game orders the bonuses and/or rounding, but regardless of that, it still is just some weird amounts.
I always thought the larger stars in AW2 required more to fill up. What a surprise!
I think that it all comes down to Nintendo's philosophy of flat out ignoring the possibility of their games being enjoyed by a competitive audience. It makes sense, in a way - when most of these titles came out the only realistic way to play them was with close friends or at local tournaments. Nowadays we scrutinize whether something is fun by analyzing whether a match up is viable when the skill level is equal, but there's a certain charm to games that are either broken on purpose or where every character/unit has its own gimimick/overpowered strategy.
These videos are so useful. Much appreciated
I don't understand the Normal Power Penalty. If Drake has his super power ready (7 stars = 63,000 gold) and uses his normal power (4 stars = 36,000), according to the video, it should cost him 20% more, i.e. 43,200. Subtract 43,200 from 63,000 and Drake should have 19,800 worth left in the gauge. This would mean 2.2 stars would be charged the next turn, but what we see is he has between 1.5 and 2 stars charged. Am I missing something?
Edit: Nevermind, I figured it out. I forgot to take into account that each star is now worth 10,800 gold because a power has been used (the diminishing returns thing). So 19,800/10,800=1.83 stars is what Drake ends up having.
Have you thought about making a general guide or CO guides?
I would doubt it. The tiers serve to give his opinion but how people play a CO should be up to their own trial and error.
This is an incredibly informative video. Very thorough.
I can't see the remake going out of its way to explain these mechanics, unless it has an expansive in-game guide a la SFW or Wargroove.
I could see it mentioning the passive stat buff, but otherwise, yeah, I expect crickets.
It's a good thing the 50% value for the attacking player. That way the losing player still has a chance to comeback, and the winning player shouldn't relax yet. Otherwise, resigning would be more common.
Would be cool to see a new game where they distinguish co powers and super by having co powers give a small buff for a push while supers give a big buff but come with downsides. Would help balance some of the stronger supers.
The hack Advance Wars Returns does this for some CO's, for example Adder can get +2 move on all units for only 2 stars, but he suffers -10% attack.
Basically the returns hack, where you technically have your Power and your Super CO Power, but now both costs the same ammount of stars, for example, Grit needs 4 stars to fill his Power meter, when he does, he will be able to use both his Power and his Super CO Power, but, difference is, this game now calls them the "A Power, or Smart Power, and the "B Power, or Strong Power", in Grit´s case, his Strong Power only increases the Firepower of his indirects to 170%, his Smart power gives him 3 extra range on all of his indirects, but their Firepower drops to 70%. (In this game, every Power gives 10/10 Firepower/Defense, some Powers are excluded from this, and when they do, the description of the power specifies it, for example, Olaf Smart power causes 1 point of damage to every enemy unit on the map, and it specifies that he "doesn´t gets increased stats".
The Adder example from the other reply is right, Adder A/Smart Power gives him 2 extra movement on all his units, but decreases his Firepower to 90% (not sure if he gets the extra stats of powers, it isn´t specified), and his B/Strong Power, gives him only 1 extra movement, but his Firepower increases to 120%.
For a moment I thought you were trying to explain how they work in-universe, lol. Would really like someone doing that.
I'm personally fine with these mechanics remaining hidden from the player. They're more of a background element in order to make the play experience better, and something you more just need to feel during gameplay. Even after knowing all this, the fundamentals during combat are retained: Destroying units and getting units destroyed fills up the power meter. When it's ready, pop it.
Thanks! I'm trying to replicate CO Powers in Wargroove for scenario maps. I currently have one right now where an Auranian (e.g. Mercia, Valder, Greenfinger, Tenri) challenges Andy in the AW map Ruby Keys.
I think it's pretty impressive that so much coding and thought actually went into this once casual little Gameboy strategy game.
Darkest dungeon torch?
I remember this clip in 2:14, the Meteor went for the airport, instead of the mech balls on the bottom right of Eagle :D
They were just waiting for Eagle to buy them some Battlecopters and Bombers to fly in the next mission.
In AW2, if the normal CO power actually consumes 20% more stars when your Super CO power is ready, then wouldn't Olaf's Blizzard have cost 3.6 stars, allowing him to use Blizzard again consecutively, since he'd have 3.4 stars left afterwards? However, that's not what happened in your example there, because he was down to roughly 2½ stars, so he paid quite a bit more than just +20% for the Blizzard. Is it actually +40% or +50% cost?
Late reply, but the 20% extra cost stacks with the 20% diminishing returns. To elaborate: the first normal power costs 32,400 value instead of the expected 27,000, leaving you with 30,600 value in the star bank. Now that the stars are worth more (10,800 apiece), your second normal power isn't ready yet because it costs 32,400, and this is reflected in the stars, with two of them full and the third one over halfway there but not full.
@@kurtmatteson4914
Ah, okay. I guess I didn't take that into account.
Searched a vid for advance wars and then you popped in my recommended. Subbed
Yep I think its better unexplained since its part of the discovery process theoug experience and training which makes gaming fun!
Super hyped for the reboot!
2:13 omg is this a clip with the mech ball that didn't get hit by meteor strike twice? lol
Nicely explained. Could you also make a video on basic patterns how the AI works and how to trick it? That would be sooo interesting
I think tis good having hidden mechanics, since it makes the game more secret and fun, whenever you get fully complete information in a game, the min/max just cracks it and knows the dominant strategy. Well, this is for old stuff, since nowadays we can just crack the code and see everything.
I've always hated hidden mechanics, at least in multiplayer games.
What I tend to find happens is that even before the days of data mining, dedicated players that built up a lot of skill already end up discovering them with trial and error and then experimentation. They then, already able to put a casual player who doesn't participate in the community, further into the ground. It becomes an unfair advantage.
Some games are built on unknown information and that can be compelling, but both sides are equally in the dark.
It would be more compelling to have the asymmetry of a less skilled player who knew tricks whereas the other player had better fundamentals. What I've often experienced was one-sided, and made playing no fun.
Now in single player games I forgive more, but even in practice I am finding that I end up looking up how to do stuff once I've beaten the game and am in completionist mode. Or hecc, even just to beat the game if difficult.
Discovering secrets often involves throwing stuff at a wall, especially these days for the more tough secrets bug/glitch hunters do because the easy stuff was discovered already years ago.
This takes time and becomes a chore. I'm happy for the people into that, but to me, it isn't fun anymore and I find wastes my time, so sometimes I find ways to cheat through grinding or looking up how to's, once I've gotten over my "I want to learn on my own" mode when I first play a game.
So although I don't begrudge them, I am finding in practice I just want to know and be taught quickly, and don't like secrets anymore.
Fire emblem genealogy of the holy war is the epitome of this I feel. It has these neat , missable secrets, so if you find one, you get this conversation, and stats or items, that are really worth it. First time I saw it in a playthrough I thought it was cool.
But if you are specially looking for them, now that you know they exist, it's now an annoying checklist. No novelty and excitement anymore.
Genres geared for secrets have no problem, it can just be a problem in certain other genres where benefits, whether necessary or luxuries, are locked out from you by nothing but obscurity, which was pretty secure in the Nintendo tips hotline days but not the gamefaqs present.
Some people miss those days. I sure don't. Though I appreciate the idea of the experience of those Eureka moments, I seem to only want the rewards from them.
How we go about secrets needs to be radically retooled for them to be interesting again.
We also need to consider how as adults stuff that flew over our heads as kids (including sexual innuendos in cartoons while I'm at it), are now brazenly obvious. Its harder to fool us.
We'd need to find a way to create hard, but intuitive puzzles (and as such are not adventure point and click moon logic), that fit in well with the specific genres they are put into, and consider ways to balance games both with and without knowledge of those secrets. That's a tough ask, but I hope someone is up to the task.
I always wished they would explain these somewhere that you can read about if interested, cause in general you go into a board game and know all the rules after a while. If you tried to make a board game out of this, you'd find that you don't have the complete rules and thus can't.
Very interesting video, I did not know that the big stars costs the same as the little stars, I could've sworn they costed double. And the 'diminishing returns' mechanic is fucking bizarre. One thing I did notice was the normal power penalty, I tried spamming the normal power with a full meter but somehow ended with not enough for a second power. But damn 20% extra? Great video egg, very informal
I wouldn't call it a diminishing returns mechanic, but an increasing costs mechanic that makes AW CO Power cost more "funds" to charge.
I think this is to make it so that the ramp up in active unit cost as more of the map is capped doesn't cause powers to happen more.
I am ... not sure how effective it is at this.
I'd guess it caps at 200% because someone typoed that instead of 300% and they never checked the code, even after bringing it to AW2.
So when Advance wars Returns added the power cost increase mechanic he was just doing what the game already did but supercharged.
I might have missed it but I was hoping to hear about how does bars work against just damaging a unit but not to one shot? Without it, some who just watch this could think you only charge the bar by killing units out right.
I think the mechanic of dropping the increase cost is not an error and more like a way to make the battle end, if you have used a power 10 times already that means the battle has dragged for a long time so that might be the game trying to help you finish the battle quickly, what do you think?
I think that they intended to code it like this
120% 140% 160% 180% 200% 220% 240% 260% 280% 300% 300% 300% 300% 300% 300% 300% 300%
But they messed up and put 2 instead of 3 at the end xD
@@Mangs1337 maybe, but i think it might have been just so i doesn't drag the game forever, but hey, i think we would need to wait for the new version to launch to be sure
@@Ricardo_Rick This makes a lot of sense. If you get to using 10 CO powers, the game has to be in a serious stalemate. So why not make things a little crazier by dialing up the speed of CO power charge.
Keep in mind that Dual Strike's star system is not the same as AW2's. In Dual Strike, every unit has their own independent star value. Infantry for example is worth 0.4 stars, which means you only need to lose 3 infantries to fill up a star. Recons are worth whopping 1 star on their own, which is pretty nuts. As you can imagine, you can activate powers much quicker in Dual Strike.
Do you know which system Advance Wars by the Web uses?
@@eggaiug Advance Wars By Web uses AW2's star meter system.
DS probably does it like this because the gauges are much larger and also because of the new tag system
having to make you charge up 2 gauges could've taken a big while if it was based on Funds
especially if its 2 large gauges such as the Sami × Eagle combination
and also for the fact that Sasha exists, who can destroy your gauge with just her mere special
More of a nitpick, but shouldn't the one most C.O.s use be the 'average'? So shouldn't it be Fast, Average, Slow, Very Slow? Or if you wanna make it look more positive, Fast, Average, Fairly Slow, and Slow.
The only question I have, since you didn't go into specifics about it, I don't think... In Advance Wars 2, do they still make it 20% more expensive if you trigger your C.O. power as opposed to your Super Power? Because that would be another point towards Super Powers being more worth it than regular ones.
@Kartal Thanks for clarifying!
Another reason why SCOP are better.
Another thing I don't like in AW2 and AWDS are star display. It looks nice, but it's harder to tell how much value you need instead of a standard bar. Also, that could open changing the prices of COP and SCOP with more precission.
Does damage count towards charge in AW1, or is it only destroying a unit that counts? For example, if I chunk one of Sami's battleships for 9hp of damage, does that charge her CO power or does she get nothing?
On a different note, does destroying units change their value at all? From playing AWDS, I get the feeling that destroying a unit doubles its value (so a tank smashed from 10hp would be worth 14,000 while a tank taken down to 5hp and then destroyed from there would only be worth 10,500).
Mangs would you ever consider making a video ranking all the lords. Maybe the same way you’ve been ranking units from 3H: design, character, and gameplay. For repeat lords like Marth idk what you’d want to do tho
Mangs, how about mechanic explanation for Dual Strike and Days of Ruin. Or just a tier list for Dual Strike xombinations in AW:DS
What about Dual Strike and Days of Ruin?
Otherwise solid video.
@KartalMe with Tabitha:
Fow? Checked!
Artillery with CO in forest? Checked!
Road/Choke point within range? Checked!
...Some turns later...
Roket ability/some tanks nearby? LETSGOOOOOOO
When you think it's easy to understand but the math behind it actually requires a university degree
Not really. It’s convoluted, but each part makes sense on its own.
great video, but you didn't explain how powers worked in dual strike, days of ruin, and advance wars by web.
"Average"
"Used only by Drake"
Man, english is a fun language that always makes sense.
Average in terms of speed, not in terms of how common it is.
well then. this is new i wonder if there will be a match that goes more then 10 CO power useages to see if that 200% thing is the same etc. cause attrition matches like that are real fun to see.
Wow, is it really up to +20% regular COP overflow penalty? I always thought it was a flat up to +1 additional star cost overflow penalty and wasn't % based. Did they change it in dual strike because that's the one I played the most. Anyone know?
All I know from observation is that the DS overflow penalty is harsher than in AW2, often taking away around 1-2 whole stars.
@@lostanimeworld11 I've been thinking about this all day while at work and I have a theory. I think it might not actually be an additional overflow penalty or anything like that, but just representing the multiple use 20% penalty. Essentially, that the game doesn't keep track of your "stars" but your "value" instead. In example, if playing Olaf if you fill up all 7 of his stars you would have 63,000 in value (7*9000). If you then use his regular power it would cost you 27,000 (3*9000) leaving you with 36,000 remaining (4 stars worth). The next power though now costs 20% more, meaning each star represents 10,800. So he would show 3.3 stars remaining as a result. Basically, it's not really an overflow penalty at all, it's just that already aforementioned multiple use penalty representing in a change in how the stars present on screen and preventing COs that have 3/6 star bars from using their COP twice in a row because of it.
I think I'm going to test this theory out tonight in War Room. If this is right, it would mean that when I hit 10 uses of COP I shouldn't see any penalty at all. In fact, after the tenth time, it sounds like I should actually see my bar grow as opposed to shrink since its dropping down to 200% from 280%. If my calculations are correct, after the tenth activation I should have something like 5.6 stars full if this works the way described. I'll be back with results!
Back from testing! So, my friend has my copy of AW2 but I tested on AWDS and the theory still checks out. There isn't actually any overflow penalty. The game keeps track of your total value as opposed to the number of stars you have and it redisplays the stars based on their new value after each use. There is only a multiple use penalty that applies after each use and that's it. As predicted, after 10 COP uses Olaf's power meter was nearly 100% full (about 6.5 stars) and each use of COP after exactly resulted in using the 3 stars it cost leaving all 4 stars remaining intact.
On a semi-related note, the starting value of powers in AWDS appears to be lower than AW2 (maybe 7000?) and I'm not so sure the penalty is % based in AWDS as it looked like it might be a flat value penalty in that game. Not 100% sure though and would be interested in what others have seen here. Overall, interesting experiment ☺
aw man, I can wait for that resurrection of the franchise with the 1+2 reboot camp *drool*
What about Dual Strike?
Custom co idea #11: Vance, the Hunter
If Vance does not fire with an indirect, he can mark an enemy unit in his range, up to a certain number (depending on indirect). He may move and fire with an indirect so long as it is marked. The mark is then removed. The mark is also removed if the enemy disappears from vision.
Vance does not get luck damage on his indirects and suffers bad luck on his direct units and -1 movement. Does not suffer movement penalty to foot soldiers and air units, does not suffer bad luck on foot soldiers and naval units.
6 stars: quick calculations: All units are marked until end of turn for all indirect. Remove all marks at end of turn
10 stars: Hunter and Prey: rejuvenate each indirect unit with -10% fire power and no movement. Their range is now 0-infinity but may only strike units with marks and gets bad luck when trying to strike outside its usual range (getting worse the farther out) Indirects can act again after striking a unit with a mark but loses an additional 10% fire power each time.
Artillery: 1 mark, Missiles and Rockets: 2 marks, pipe runners and battle ships: 3 marks, carriers: 4 marks
He’s a expert Hunter and second in command of the neutralists. He’s loves hunting and hates when prey escape
One thing not covered is, "Is the increasing costs of using powers in advance wars affected by whether you use your power or super power?" If it isn't, then it does make super powers more potent, since you'd generate more stars over the course of a match if you only used super powers rather than using normal powers.
Generally yes, spamming your little power will quickly drive up costs.
@@Insulted25
Yeah, little power spam is generally only for specific CO's that either have a bad Super, a very good Normal, or non-spam niche usage where any power, normal or super, will decide the match then and there, like, hitting a critical unit with Grit's 1 range extension, or an Andy unit surviving a critical engagement with 2 hp, 5 also works.
And then there are CO's with totally nonviable normal powers.
In AW2, can you gain power charge on the turn you use your normal power?
You don't generate any gauge when your power is activated.
@@Posby95 thanks!
When you say the normal power penalty in AW2 sets your meter back 20%, is that in addition to the 20% increase in power cost every time you use it?
It is +20% of the powers base cost, so the diminishing returns have no effect on this.
Nvm, I read the forum post. I'll put the exact quote here in case anyone else wanted clarification.
"COP penalty: If you activate a COP when your stars had filled beyond the COP stars, you have to pay an additional 20% of the COP's original cost. So if you hadn't used a S/COP before, this translates to the COP taking away 120% of its cost. If you had activated a COP before, first the COP's increased cost is paid, followed by 20% of its original (stars x 9000 G) cost."
I got it. Lol, thanks anyways.
@@orangejuice3235 So that is in addition to the increasing costs of using a CO power in general. That's double punishment of normal CO powers then, since the diminishing returns will stack just as much as if you used your more infrequent SCO power. I really dislike that, especially since most normal CO powers aren't particularly worth using in the first place.
The dropping in cost after the 10th power might be intentionally aimed at closing a dragging game? Or it might very well be a bug indeed...
I get that your CO power becomes more expensive each time you use it, but how does that work in AW2 when you have both a regular power and a super power? Does using either make both more expensive? Does that make spamming your regular power less effective by causing the cost to rise faster?
In awbw (and in the og games too im pretty sure) using ur power or super power increases the price of stars equally, so yes if you spam your little power your stars will become more expensive faster.
Yes and yes
@@kingarthur3236 plus you still can't gain power during the turn you use your regular power. Sounds like there's a fair bit of incentive to not spam your regular power.
@@DarthLeon2 unless you are Collin or Adder.
Adder because getting +1 movement frequently is just better than getting +2 occasionally, even if you get less total bonus movement. Collin because his two powers are completly different and spamming Gold Rush lets him kinda just buy so many units that you still charge your power fairly quickly anyway.
@@alexstewart9592 Kindle also has a fairly spammable normal power. +80 attack from cities, while burning any enemies on cities for 3 HP is pretty darn good for 3 stars. Though, admittedly, it is situational, depending on enemy position. Which given the CO power penalty for having more stars, kind of hurts it even more... But while it's not Colin or Adder levels of "Hit it every time!" it's probably one of the better regular CO powers.
Duh, the "penalty" for normal power is just the normal higher cost for powers each time they are casted, you can't pull two normal powers in a row because the second costs more! lmao
You mentioned multiple times that killing/losing infantry (and mechs?) has a stronger effect on the COP charging rate, but you didn't discuss this in the video.
Did you find out that it was wrong?
It is in DS.
AW DS Skill tier list when?