As a flight engineer on 727-200s back then , I will share my knowledge of the case, not judging anybody. My info is from within TWA, because at that time I was having twice a year sim in their JFK base, and it was presented to us in class! with detailed photos of the aftermath. So this is what I remember. Cruising at FL 390, they decided to do this trick of extending only trailing flaps 2° , to reduce the nose pitch up (simple physics, the turning moment, would drop the nose, thus less frontal area, less drag, less fuel flow etc). Before they moved the flap lever to the 2° notch, the flight engineer, had to pull a circuit breaker on **P6** panel labeled **"L.E VALVE"** so slats would remain retracted. ( at 2° normally, only #2 and #7 extend ). In this case, with the c/b pulled, #7 deployed inadvertently, while cruising at mach .80 , causing the incident with the roll it created. #7 is the one before the outermost one. Imagine the turning moment it created. As we were told, what saved the day , was the lowering of the gear.... Speed limits were exceeded, so extensive damage resulted. On slides they showed us, I remember , deformed gear doors, trailing edge flaps honeycomb pieces torn apart etc. To conclude, I had my basic sim training in Kansas City with TWA, a great company ,a great school... On the flight levels the -200 was able back then with JT8D-9s, it was 310 westbound, 330 eastbound. 390 was unheard of... Thanks for reading this.:)
That's not true. At 2 degrees, 2,3,6, and 7 slats deploy. And the FE went to the bathroom, the Captain did this and pulled the circuit breaker himself. He didn't tell the FE, so when this guy came back he sat down, noticed the popped CB, and took it on his own to push it back in. That's what happened.
It's amazing that this plane did not break apart while dealing with jet fighter maneuvers. Anytime I invert my car I tend to erase the dashcam before the police show up.......
All Boeing's were then and still are today made like this. All those people owe their lives to Boeing and the way they have always constructed their planes. All the people nowadays complaining about Boeing bc a door blew out or software problems, but time has proven over and over that if you are ever on an aircraft in fear of breaking up, these are the planes you wanna be on. How do you think Airbus is as successful as they are today? Bc of Boeing and the mistakes they've learned from and fixed over decades and decades of engineering.
You do realize that, if this was an Airbus aircraft, they were all dead. At the speed that they were traveling, the Airbus computer logic would have denied the Pilot's request for landing gear down.
Man. What an absolute sick driver of a pilot 👏🏻. Plane rolled was falling at incredible pace and he managed to get it under control and land it. Unreal
By coincidence not far away 7 years after the "Windsor Incident" where a farmer found a coffin in the field outside Windsor Ontario in the summer of 72 that turned out to be from the DC10 that lost a cargo door thus losing some of it's cargo and almost crashing which was a dress rehearsal for the worlds worst air disaster Turkish Airlines DC10 Flight 981 1974.
This pilot did exactly what I would have done; lowering the gear, unconventional, but slowing things down. This is a tribute to all good pilots - we fight to the end; we believe we can deal with everything, because we are SLICK! Top of our game. 100% all the time. Old RAFVR pilot. "We were steely!"
This is the famous "twisted sister" airplane. I flew at Express One International and we had this airplane as a cargo jet, N220NE. I flew this airplane many times. The fuselage was twisted from this escapade, and you could NOT get the rudder trim right. It always flew sideways. What happened in this situation is that the captains at this airline believed that by extending the trailing edge flaps to the first detent that they would increase wing area [true] and thus reduce fuel consumption [FALSE]. But by putting out the first position of flaps on a 727 you are also putting out some of the leading edge devices. THUS, some "captains" at this airline devised the idea of pulling the circuit breaker that controlled the leading edge devices and then went to the first flap position, thus increasing wing area without extending the leading edge devices, something that Boeing never intended and was a big NO NO! In any case, the flight engineer in this case went to the bathroom and then came back in the cockpit and noticed a circuit breaker pulled out. "Hmm. That's strange?" he said to himself, and then pushed it back in. The leading edge devices then extended at .84 mach... 34,000 feet of crazy descent later after several barrel rolls [And a bunch of missing parts!] they got the airplane back under control. I've been told they went to 1.05 mach, they broke the speed of sound, 727's have done this many times accidentally. Boeing build quality. Try that with an A320 some time, you'll wind up in a coffin if there is anything left of you. In any case, they got the plane under control and landed in Detroit; It never carried a passenger again. It was converted to cargo and the last I heard of it was in 2005. Check the airliner lists online, I think it is parked. Frankly, I think it should have been recycled in 1979, but that's me-
Thanks for the detailed insight. When I saw the plane roll in the vid, I assumed they were all goners. Off topic, but what do you think of the 737 Max. Is it a bad design or just pilot error?
@@rl1800 Bad design. The 737 is about 300 bandaids and some duct tape trying to keep a 1968 design that is cheap to build alive. They should have ditched the 737 and kept the 757; They would have sold twice as many planes. The sad thing about this? The 757 and the 737 have the same fuselage, only the cockpit and wing are different. The 757 has a 767 tail, so there are actually more individual parts in the 737 design than the 757; I suspect it would have been cheaper to keep the 757 design. But I'm not a Boeing accountant...
Thank God they made it safely on the ground, thats the beauty of it.. I took a flight out of Detroit once and after 20 minutes in the air we had to come back as one of the engines weren't reading properly. I have the upmost respect to our pilots and crew, they risk their lives to make our flights safe... I love the 727 such a beautiful machine made ever made.. great vid Allen..
I was on a Northwest flight out of Detroit headed to Las Vegas many years ago that returned to the airport shortly after takeoff and was quickly surrounded by fire trucks on the runway. Fortunately there was no fire. Sounds like we might have been on the same flight.
Great vid Allec. I will say this. I LOVED being a passenger on these 727-100 series jets. They were so well made and so very reliable and attractive. Always a terrific ride for sure. So glad that whatever the cause, everyone and the plane arrived OK. J
You can put me in the group of sticking up for the crew. I have nearly 8,000 hours in 727's and this is something I would have never tried. As far as the "A" system hydralics, when you have a leak you instantly lose all A system fluid in the blink of an eye.(3500 +/- psi system) I knew many TWA pilots that flew with Capt. Gibson prior to this incident and none of them think that he is guilty of pulling the LE breaker and lowering the TE flaps. He was light enough to be at FL390 so there would be no need to do this. This airplane eventually ended up as a freighter with Ameri-Jet and several of my friends flew it. I have many fond memories of flying 727's. Great airplane. Thanks for the video Allec.
Hypothetically what would motivate a flight crew to do something like this? I understand why management would like the idea of saving a few bucks on fuel or better on time performance or whatever, but why would a flight crew think it's worth it?
Quite an intense flight there, though it had a positive ending in where everyone survived. That one had me clenching my teeth there, to be honest. Happy New Year, Allec, and I look forward to your future episodes!
So, my very layman question would be: "Why would the captain bulk erase the tape as it could have had critical information as to why the flap extended?" The "crucial information" I am surmising was the discussion of pulling the circuit breaker. Again, if the pilot was innocent, the tapes could have strengthened his case that he did not mess with the flap extension.
From when they went into a dive to when they landed at Detroit was ~45 minutes so regardless if the Captain actually erased the CVR the recording of them in the dive and the events leading up to it would have been taped over.
The NTSB was right in their assessment of what caused the "upset" of the B-727. I am a retired Captain and flew the 727. Gibson was trying to avoid the head winds and climbed to FL 390. The airplane was too heavy to fly at that altitude so Gibson told the Flight engineer to pull the leading edge flaps/slats circuit breaker so they would not extend when he extended the trailing edge flaps to 2 degrees. The engineer pulled the wrong circuit breaker and the leading edge devices extended and one failed because the max speed for extending the leading edge devices is 230 knots. The "A" system failure was because the hydraulic fluid was lost due to the slat's departure from the wing. The Yaw damper problem was due to the "A" system failure. The gear problem was also due to the "A" system failure but the gear can be extended by cranking each gear down with a hand crank, through three access panels in the cockpit floor. The "fly-by" was not needed but may have been done to confuse the issue. Gibson and his crew lied about the incident but the NTSB and EVERY 727 pilot in the world knew that they were covering up a self-induced, near fatal accident. "Hoot" was fired.
Did you happen to read Scapegoat" by Emilio Corsetti? One argument he makes is that the alleged maneuver was never confirmed to have been used by a single 727 pilot, either in person testimony or in writing. It was, he claims, pure rumor. Where is your evidence every 727 pilot sided with the NTSB?
Also this below: "I have nearly 8,000 hours in 727's and this is something I would have never tried. As far as the "A" system hydralics, when you have a leak you instantly lose all A system fluid in the blink of an eye.(3500 +/- psi system) I knew many TWA pilots that flew with Capt. Gibson prior to this incident and none of them think that he is guilty of pulling the LE breaker and lowering the TE flaps. He was light enough to be at FL390 so there would be no need to do this." When I read seemingly credible claims by experienced 727 pilots, such as the above, and yours, could you suggest how we lay readers might deal with these contradictory claims? Is there a more definitive source of evidence?
Larry you are probably unaware that the CVR was adopted with the agreement and understanding that it was for use in the event that the crew did not survive an incident. When the crew survives they can give there information. The bulk erase function was installed to support the agreement. The crew survived, landed, taxied to the gate and parked the breaks. They completed the cycle required to erase the tape.
@@jayreiter268 @Jay Reiter Bullshit they were covering their asses , Gibson was an air traffic controller at Chicago Center before he went on to fly for TWA and the old timers that knew him knew the back story which was when the FE left the cockpit to use the head the circuit breaker for the slats were pulled and the pilots set the flaps to 2 degrees to see if the aircraft would preform better , the FE came back and didnt know what the pilots had done and saw the Slat CB had popped and reset them causing the inboard slats to extend .
Couldnt the "get them up" scream mean an order to stop trying to use the 2 degree flaps - to get them back to retracted position? Just thought it makes sense...
Those pilots did one insane job there saving that plane despite the insane fu*k up of pilot error possibly. That was a true miracle they had enough time falling that height and rolling that violently and G forces to survive without structural failure of the plane. That must have been terrifying to be a passenger on that flight but man what an outcome and EVERYONE SURVIVES! :)
Landing without flaps? That must have been a fast one! Lots to unpack in this story, and while there is a lot that doesn't add up it really does look like the NTSB is the omniscient-must-never-be-questioned deity here which is concerning because even the NTSB is not above making mistakes
i was working at a nearby sector at cleveland center the night that this happened. the bumpy ride at FL350 caused the request to climb to FL370 - which then was wrong altitude for direction of flight - which the controller was unable to grant due to traffic. so TW841 was cleared to FL390. what happened was the flight engineer had left the cockpit. the captain knew the aircraft was too heavy to make FL390 until some fuel burned off, so he instructed the copilot to pull the slat breaker - which is located on the engineer's panel. on a 727 the flaps and slats deploy together. this gave the plane the ability to go to FL390. after leveling at 39, the engineer returned to the cockpit, saw the breaker popped, reset it, out come the slats and over she goes. many passengers and cabin crew were seriously injured.
I didn't recall this near tragedy as I started to view it, so I had no idea the outcome. When the aircraft landed SAFELY, I was overcome with relief & joy! I can't imagine the moments of sheer terror the poor people on that plane went through as it corkscrewed towards the ground 😫 I hope those folks have all gone on to live full, productive & joy filled lives, as they were ALL so lucky to have been given another chance at life 🙏 don't know if the pilot's should be praised or smited, since the cause of the incident is in question, but if I had been on that plane, well I would have kissed the S.O.B!
As a passenger who doesn't know anything about flying an airplane, I will always remember this video as an example of how it is possible to survive in a plane that has flown upside down.
In the first part of the video, I'm thinking Capt Gibson is one skilled pilot & that he's recovering control of his aircraft from some system failure he had no control of. But, then, we get "the rest of the story."
Time for some light-hearted comedy. I was on a TWA Flight in 1977, crossing the Atlantic, east to west. The most gorgeous Air Hostess went to a man in front of me and said "Sir - would you like some of our TWA Coffee?" The man looked at the beautiful Air Hostess, and with a wry grin, he replied: "No thanks, but I wouldn't mind some of your TWA Tea".
@@peterduxbury927 A friend of mine pointed out me when I had left my ticket on her table that the way they designed the cover with TWA TWA TWA printed in several rows across the jacket with a little imagination that word would be obvious . Their ticket logo never looked the same to me,and yes,I think i remember the beautiful flight attendant and like my youth I miss them both,
@@michaelarmstrong11 I'm don't really know if the Americans are fully familiar with the 'T' word in mind, and (I think) they prefer alternative names, but I have no idea what these names are! Back in TWA Days, (the 70's), flying was much more relaxed - that's for sure.
He needn't turn on such a light as it was apparently fully understood with the passengers and in accordance with such an incident was fully complied with.
I had a dream last night I was in a plane that crashed immediately after take off, but before it hit the ground, I jumped out the window and lived. So weird how watching all these videos eventually brought on a crashing dream for me. Thank God everyone survived. As a passenger, I can only imagine what they were thinking when they became inverted. God knows I'd be sitting two inches higher.
i had a similar dream not too long ago, it was very vivid. i didn’t jump out the window, but i somehow got myself out of the plane when it crashed and was on fire. if only it were that easy in real life 😬 it’s incredible that the crew recovered from such a dire situation and landed safely with no casualties. i’m assuming there were injuries but damn. i understand the backlash the captain got because of the supposed events laid out by the ntsb... such a complicated case.
Several years ago I dreamed I was using the plane's bathroom when it started spiraling towards the ground, and I was angry because I didn't want the toilet to be where I died. Then I woke up before we hit the ground.
Anyone remember the exact number of people who have fallen without a parachute and lived? Higher than you think but seriously don't test it you'll die.
In April 1979, the runway this aircraft landed on was Runway 3L. (Later renamed 4R/22L when runway 4L/22R opened in 2001). At the time it was 10,500 feet long and DTW's longest by 500 feet.
Love this one, Allec! Well done! As a former TWA avionics mechanic, this story is legendary amongst ex-TWA'ers. Love all the great shots of this aircraft in different paint schemes, along with a few other TWA planes.
At cruise speed in a no turbulence area of airspace you can be sure a bunch of passengers and cabin staff were not buckled into seats. There must have been at least some significant bumps and bruises.
I went to aviation maintenance school in the 90's, one of our teachers (prior TWA mechanic) told us the rest of the story. The NTSB didn't believe the pilots because once you push the button to erase the tape, it begins recording right away again, and then the pilot said "There, let the bastards figure that one out".
@@liamb8644 Could be the pilot was using the 2 degree flaps to increase speed or decrease fuel consumption and things went "south". He pulled his fat out of the fire and kept flying but expect he didn't pull that trick again after that near catastrophe.
> then the pilot said "There, let the bastards figure that one out" < Around the time investigation of this incident concluded I heard pretty much that same account (third-hand), plus how supposedly the airline had been conducting a fuel-saving "contest". This was a period of spiking fuel prices, and everyone was scrambling to deal with it. For example, my company tasked me with looking into the fuel savings (if any) from taxiing a twin on just one engine.
@@marcmcreynolds2827 It is indeed a revelation to learn that Captain Pilot Gibson did this. I had heard many rumors that (on 4 - engine Passenger Jets), the Pilot can fly it on three engines, to save on the 'running hours' of an engine, which spreads the Maintenance Periods further apart, saving on costs.And Overall Company Profits.
@@marcmcreynolds2827 I've heard this "fuel-saving" story as well. If the company really was promoting this sort of thing, the pilots would have been better off telling the truth and that the company expected these sort of "efforts", probably would have cleared their names if it was an unwritten company policy....
Hay Alec great job on these videos your doing a great service to the people who perished in these accidents, so others know and can learn from these incidents thanks
Get them up' the pilot screamed.' But the FO was unaware of the plane buffeting because he was working out the ground speed'? How could he NOT be aware of falling & spiralling thousands of feet a second with the pilot turning green sweating profusely and screaming at him??! It's not like reading a book by the fire and you hear your partner say something 'what dear, did you say something? 'Yes' they reply 'would you like some mini marshmallows on your cocoa'? Some mad stuff was going on up there. We'll never know what really happened.
The plane goes inverted, it’s yawing to the right repeatedly, you get false readings related to the landing gear, any landing configuration is a problem, you have to make an emergency landing and you decide to erase the CVR once you get the thing on the ground, but you deny the flap adjustment procedure?! Sounds fishy...
The plane freaking went inverted and the first officer had no idea? I find that hard to believe too. Especially since the captain warned the flight crew it was going to happen. I don't buy the idea of the first officer trying to calculate the ground speed in that instance. A passenger jet flying inverted is always an emergency condition and that demands the basics that every pilot learns in flight school: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate IN THAT ORDER!
@@DeltaFoxtrotWhiskey3 I concur but am sure there was a lot fu*k this airline, and plane and sh*t I don't know what to do or how the f*ck to get it under control. Rather just delete all than expose any likely hood of incompetence.
@Slarti Bartfast there was not proof of conversations in the cockpit but given the circumstances I have merely voiced my humble opinion of what may have been said 😉
I remember something about the NTSB finding other circumstantial evidence that the slat breakers had been pulled. Something like some of the markings for the breaker being rubbed down as if that breaker had been repeatedly cycled. This was apparently a common thing for a lot of pilots of this type aircraft at that time. And if memory serves, the 727 could be a thirsty aircraft and pilots were encouraged to save fuel.
Great video. I feel badly for the pilot. He got the plane down safely and there doesn’t seem to be actually proof that the crew messes with the flaps or slats or whatever. The NTSB just assumes what may have happened and trashed a man’s reputation and he has to avenue of appeal. Doesn’t seem fair. Awesome video Allec! Happy New Year!
@@DorianTMChannel I thought the same but their investigation must have revealed things,that without reading the report, we can only guess at ! The part that can't be overlooked is that the Cockpit tape was erased once the plane landed. Its possible they trying to do the 2 degree trim and it all went to heck!
@@mileshigh1321 This manuver only came to the NTSB's mind after being suggested as an occurrence by a First Officer from rival United Airlines, despite no evidence that anyone ever attempted to use it. The NTSB had members who refused more plausable explanations.
Sue Kelley I don’t think the NTSB “ just assumed” anything, they conducted their tests and the tests pointed to the pilot.. it’s true the pilot did a good job to keep the plane safe but he also knew the first thing they would do was to review the recordings, that being said he should’ve been smart enough to not to erase them. Why would he erase his own evidence of proof? The pilot trashed his own reputation by throwing away the evidence and record of the flight. Ironically it’s very similar to what’s happening in our own federal government now
I worked for TWA back then and had been on N840TW many times but did not know of its involvement in the Gibson matter. Who knows what really caused this near tragedy? Those 727s were incredible workhorses. Our first two delivered there, N850TW and N851TW were delivered from Boeing in October 1964. When I left the airline in 1992 both were still going strong along with N840TW. I'm certain they are now scrap.
Wow .. Gibson’s got the plane down and save many lives , but he shouldn’t have erased audio recordings which he and the other pilots denied ..... Okay He was lucky he managed to bring the plane down and save his own life too . But really no body really knows what really took place. That being said . I’m glad everyone survived
@@jamesp9226 So does Occams Razor say that the most likely outcome was a component failure in flight rather than a cover up by the flight crew. IMHO it feels like a component failure to me. The problem is there is no evidence either way and to blame the crew is unfair. You can blame them for deleting the CVR but not for causing the incident without more evidence.
@@111doomer its possible they deleted it not knowing if it would incriminate or exonerate. but they may have done everything correctly and still be unsure enuff to erase it to b safe.
Gibson and his first mate were known to FO. they got caught, the engineer didn't know what they did and punched the "flap control" circuit breaker when he got back from the head, he didn't know that they were flying out of the envelope, and when he did the aircraft did its thing as designed. Rollin and poll em, down. They capt Gibson an first officer should not have bragged of their " accomplishment and fu" to the engineer. Something with similar outcome happened to a British Aw 111. The report goes so far but there6more to it than the "report". At least the Brits can keep the lid on Pandoras box. That must be the Irish in all the brits
I certainly don't know anything about flying but no matter what happened....Captain Gibson was a hero that night. His actions to recover control of the plane saved everyone on board.
When I went through A&P school, my one instructor had previously been with TWA for many years in maintenance and told us about this flight. This is the first time that I have gotten to see it in detail! From what I remember, everyone survived but there were some very serious injuries among the stewardesses. He told us that the ultimate cause of the accident was that they pulled the breaker...
I remember this incident as it made all the newspapers around America and Canada and there were plenty of air disasters at the time . I am open to any possibility however it is rather strange that after such a horrific experience the Captain would flick the switch on the runway to erase the CVR.
He didn't erase the CVR as the three of them were so busy flying the plane to Detroit, running through the checklists and then coordinating the evacuation that there was no time to devise a cover story, nor did the CVR ever cross their mind. The investigators never even considered the possibility that there was a fault with the CVR nor did they ever analyze/inspect the CVR for any faults.
4 роки тому+2
Captain was caught between the rock and the hard place. If TWA told him to use the slat on high altitude flights, he was flying as he was told. Great job on safe landing under the circumstances. He should be praised not ostracized.
The Nazis didn't get away with following orders. Had he thrown TWA under the bus it would have probably been worse for him and once he said his story he had to stick with it.
That pilot tried to get his reputation back but he could never get it back. He may have recovered that plane but he could have just as well not recovered it. And think of those people on that plane, it would be very hard to ever get over what he did to them. It only takes once to get caught doing the wrong thing to destroy your whole life. This wasn't something the captain had never done, this is something they had been doing so long they got sloppy and pulled the fuss to the aileron before it was back in place. It almost cost 100 lives.
That captain could be considered a hero his hands more than full and to keept his composure in the face of certain death he had emience balls of steele, but can also be considered a criminal and held liable for disabling the circuit breakers so it's a catch 22, in the end even though it was a hell of a save they should have NEVER been in that position to begin with so basically he brought it on himself but almost killing 200 people in the process.
One bit of information that was at the beginning: The pilot said that he had a 100 mpr head wind and that is why he asked ATC in Toronto, (not even in the country he is flying) to give him clearance for 39,000 feet. The ATC said that all other planes had said there was no wind at all. So the pilot made up the story that he had head wind so he could use the little trick with the 2% wing tip ailerons. So he used the ailerons to get the plane to 39,000 feet but before the ailerons are back in position they remove the fuss that goes to the aileron and it is stuck forward which causing the plane to roll over. That pilot and the two other captains with him had done this before, this is something they have been doing. I think they had done it so often they removed the fuss before the aileron was back in position, not being a careful as they had done it before. It's so horrible to think captains are up front doing their own thing because they think they are so smart and they know it all. This almost cost everyone their lives. At 3:56 the Copilot testified he didn't notice the airplanes attitude. He was calculated ground airspeed even though the plane is falling out of the sky, everyone was most likely screaming. The pilot erased the type and spent years trying to prove he wasn't doing what he was so clearly doing. How many people loose their good name, good reputation, good job, friends, income, maybe it cost his marriage and home as well because of arrogance..
I feel like they attempted to extend slats 2 degrees at cruise for supposedly better fuel consumption. Turning off breakers to remove restrictions that would otherwise prevent an extension at that speed. However only one side of slats extended, and the other perhaps even detached from the aircraft, causing the roll. So they quickly retracted the slat(s) and managed to regain control. The CVR was probably wiped in order to try and cover up the way they tried to get around the airspeed restrictions for slat extensions.
The video doesn’t tell the story of what actually happened here. I won’t go into all of the specifics on this, but. The crew put the plane into a configuration that was prohibited by Boeing, to reach a higher altitude. The plane with its weight and configuration, was not able to reach FL39 in the Boeing approved configuration. It was a known practice at the time to get extra performance and lift out of the 727 was to set the flaps at 2°, which gave more lift, but when you selected 2° flaps, it also extended the leading slats. Air crews figured out if you pulled the circuit breaker for the leading edge slats, you could select number two flaps and the slats on the leading edge would not deploy, this allowed the plane to climb to higher altitudes, but this was not approved by Boeing, as Boeing had parameters set for speeds and altitudes that the flaps could be extended, case in point with the 727 they were not to be deployed over 20,000 feet. The engineer left the cockpit to go to the bathroom, while he was gone , The captain got out of his seat, went to the engineers panel and disabled the leading edge slats by pulling the breaker. The engineer returned from the bathroom while checking his panel he noticed that the circuit breaker had popped so he pushed it back in. This caused the leading edge slats to deploy, resulting in the plane losing speed until it stalled. The crew also erased the cockpit voice recorder after they landed. The missing slat was torn away from the aircraft during the descent.
There was 9 minutes of recording available where the pilots were talking to each other and to the TWA Ops in Detroit. No analysis of the CVR was ever conducted to determine if there was a pre-existing fault or if the wiring was damaged by the 6G pullout. Based on the fact that the captain left everything in the cockpit to help the investigators figure out what happened is inconsistent with someone trying to hide something they did.
EVERYONE at TWA was doing that little trick at the time to get "over the hump". Rumor has it that they did it while the F/E was using the lav and when he came back, saw the circuit breaker for the slats pulled, and he pushed it back in.
@@hellosunshine1090 it's a euphemism to get up to speed without losing the Mach. At high altitudes is difficult to do. Setting flaps 1 or 2 while disabling the slats allowed for a slight deflection of the flaps and gave the airplane that extra lift. Most pilots knew about it
Having grown up in the northern suburbs of Detroit, moving to Los Angeles, then back to the Port Huron (45 miles NE of Detroit) and watching hours of incredible airline stories, some happy, some heartbreaking. I am truly impressed that you took the time to call Metro Airport (well known nickname throughout tge state) by its rightful name: Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport. And yes, it is an international airport. I spend some pretty happy hours planespotting. My husband and I didn't have a lot living in Torrance, California, but we lived reasonably (like 20 munites or so) close to LAX - Los Angeles International Airport. The 747s would taxi right next to the fence where we would park and the tips of their wings were within easy reach if we wanted to touch them. As LAX's runways are east/west in layout we could count 20 or more aircraft lining up for landing. Many many happy memories. You've brought part of my past, time spent with my husband before he passed in 2008, and just made this lady most grateful for the quality and well done videos you put together. You, sir, are truly gifted and share your love of aviation with all of us. Thank you thank you thank you!!
The slat extending theory was stated to be a frequent practice by the NTSB, but never used by others. Which is true? Looks like the NTSB put considerable weight on the CVR wipe, that no crew member admitted to. Even if normal to erase after landing, why would anyone do this after what had happened, unless it's the beginning of the coverup.
David you are probably unaware that the CVR was adopted with the agreement and understanding that it was for use in the event that the crew did not survive an incident not spy on the crew. When the crew survives they can give their information. The bulk erase function was installed to support the agreement. The crew survived, landed, taxied to the gate and parked the breaks. They completed the cycle required to erase the tape.
If they tried that highspeed cruise two degree flap setting while killing the circuit breakers to the forward slats, something didn't go as planned. Admitting to doing that might have been a career ender but they should have not erased the CVR after landing, which seems to be a dead give away.
@@jayreiter268 Then why did no one admit to wiping the tape? If it was only for use during the event, how would a crew in the midst of a crisis use it? I don't understand.
@@jayreiter268 oops, misunderstood the agreed upon use of the CVR. Though for its use only if the crew dies, means that lessons learned from near misses would most likely be incomplete. If the FAA agreed to erase the CVR after ANY significant transient, they had their heads up their collective asses. There is no such thing as too much information when you are trying to improve safety. The industry I worked in for 40+ years learned that about 50 years ago.
David the flight crew does not use the CVR. The CVR is meant to be recovered after a fatal accident. It is one of "black boxes" (orange in color). The early type as used in the 727 used magnetic tape. Most of the ones I worked on were not very readable as the tape had been recorded over so many times. The modern ones use digital memory. As far as why no one admitted erasing the tape, they erased the tape routinely. On this occasion no one remembered doing it. Kind of like me this afternoon. I do not remember if I set the bottom latches on the the shop roll up door.
100%. if its not 100% it shonuff is 99%. it took me 6 or 7 years to fly again after the plane i was on dropped suddenly. was horrific. was defo beyond turbulence, but we regain control after 15-30 seconds of hell
33,3 Anders, I know it's unlikely but I had a similar experience. You weren't by wild coincidence on UA 1028, LAX to ORD in 2008, were you? Diverted to Denver due to injuries?
@Allec Joshua Ibey Any thoughts on making one for Air Canada 621 in 1970? It's an interesting crash, the miscommunication between the Captain and Co-pilot on whether to arm or engage the speed brakes on the flare, and the resulting crash. I haven't seen any videos of it anywhere.
That aircraft remained in service. Someone scribbled "Hoots Looper" on the side of the fuselage by the forward left cabin door. Hoot was the captain's nickname.
After returning to the air, Captain Gibson developed a bleeding ulcer that caused three years of disability. He finally retired in 1989, dying in 2015.
@@rosemarydudley9954 In the absence of any concrete or irrefutable evidence pointing to Captain Gibson,we needn't be so critical to the point of suggesting that his ulcer was his "payback" for any alleged misconduct. Let us remember that despite the severity of the incident,Captain Gibson and his crew managed to land the B727 safely,thereby saving the lives of all aboard. Let us not be quick to condemn,lest we ourselves be condemned,as we are all human and capable of error. Rest in peace,Capt. Harvey Gibson🙏
once a jet goes perpendicular to the horizon, not once but twice, it usually means horrific loss of life. These guys pulled it out of the bag and saved the day, including a high speed landing that nowadays, usually means a wrecked plane with horrific loss of life. So that's 3 saves. Should have gotten medals rather than ruined careers. Modern pilots are computer drivers. They get in situations like this and it all goes to hell fast. Anyways.
Ok, typically hydraulic controlled components, left and right are not independent of each other, they are not (A) systematic meaning one control switch for both flaps, ailerons, landing gear ect. This means one control switch will/should control both flight controls..... Problems with flight controls are usually found out during preflight check, provided those checks are actually done by the crew. In this case, from what I read, it sounds like a check valve was stuck in the closed position. Jammed shut not allowing equal flow to both control surfaces. An "O" ring, a gasket, a spring ect. probably was at fault.
Captain Gibson's erasing 21+ minutes of the CVR tape to "prevent inappropriate use of recorded conversations", then claiming he did not remember doing so is highly unusual considering what happened during this flight. what could Gibson's motive be?
As a flight engineer on 727-200s back then , I will share my knowledge of the case, not judging anybody. My info is from within TWA, because at that time I was having twice a year sim in their JFK base, and it was presented to us in class! with detailed photos of the aftermath. So this is what I remember.
Cruising at FL 390, they decided to do this trick of extending only trailing flaps 2° , to reduce the nose pitch up (simple physics, the turning moment, would drop the nose, thus less frontal area, less drag, less fuel flow etc).
Before they moved the flap lever to the 2° notch, the flight engineer, had to pull a circuit breaker on **P6** panel labeled **"L.E VALVE"** so slats would remain retracted.
( at 2° normally, only #2 and #7 extend ).
In this case, with the c/b pulled, #7 deployed inadvertently, while cruising at mach .80 , causing the incident with the roll it created. #7 is the one before the outermost one. Imagine the turning moment it created.
As we were told, what saved the day , was the lowering of the gear....
Speed limits were exceeded, so extensive damage resulted.
On slides they showed us, I remember , deformed gear doors, trailing edge flaps honeycomb pieces torn apart etc.
To conclude, I had my basic sim training in Kansas City with TWA, a great company ,a great school...
On the flight levels the -200 was able back then with JT8D-9s, it was 310 westbound, 330 eastbound. 390 was unheard of...
Thanks for reading this.:)
Why would the slats deploy even with the pulled circuit breaker?
That's not true. At 2 degrees, 2,3,6, and 7 slats deploy. And the FE went to the bathroom, the Captain did this and pulled the circuit breaker himself. He didn't tell the FE, so when this guy came back he sat down, noticed the popped CB, and took it on his own to push it back in. That's what happened.
Yeah, FL390 sounds a little high for a loaded 727 then.
@@dragonmeddler2152 FL390 is a LOT high for a 727! This airplane likes to go real fucking fast but it does NOT like to go high.
@@Flies2FLL so does Russian TU-154b-2 or TU-154M. FL370 is good to fly at.
It's amazing that this plane did not break apart while dealing with jet fighter maneuvers. Anytime I invert my car I tend to erase the dashcam before the police show up.......
The 727 was built like a tank. They don’t make ‘em like that anymore.
@@Mr727sim well they do have cargo planes
All Boeing's were then and still are today made like this. All those people owe their lives to Boeing and the way they have always constructed their planes. All the people nowadays complaining about Boeing bc a door blew out or software problems, but time has proven over and over that if you are ever on an aircraft in fear of breaking up, these are the planes you wanna be on. How do you think Airbus is as successful as they are today? Bc of Boeing and the mistakes they've learned from and fixed over decades and decades of engineering.
Wise moooove, eXpeclly during da holidays when hospitality from dem friends & families is soooooo genrous!
They didn’t mention how many g’s were encountered. Almost all aircraft can perform a 1g roll with no problems.
Wow, just imagine trying to get out off a roll when you’re dropping that fast. Hats off to the crew for averting disaster.
You do realize that, if this was an Airbus aircraft, they were all dead. At the speed that they were traveling, the Airbus computer logic would have denied the Pilot's request for landing gear down.
Man. What an absolute sick driver of a pilot 👏🏻. Plane rolled was falling at incredible pace and he managed to get it under control and land it. Unreal
Being from Detroit at the time I recall this well. A farmer found the slat in his field up by Saginaw.
Damn! Imagine just harvesting and it shuts off and you find a slat, “THESE DAMNED KIDS!”
Edit: Wow thx
It really wasn't. See my post above. I worked on 7840 in the 80's. It flew fine.
Mark Hull ok, this is what I was told. I’ll edit my comment, thanks.
@@kubla777 Oh, no problem. It did have some slight waving. Structure wasn't compromised.
By coincidence not far away 7 years after the "Windsor Incident" where a farmer found a coffin in the field outside Windsor Ontario in the summer of 72 that turned out to be from the DC10 that lost a cargo door thus losing some of it's cargo and almost crashing which was a dress rehearsal for the worlds worst air disaster Turkish Airlines DC10 Flight 981 1974.
This pilot did exactly what I would have done; lowering the gear, unconventional, but slowing things down. This is a tribute to all good pilots - we fight to the end; we believe we can deal with everything, because we are SLICK! Top of our game. 100% all the time. Old RAFVR pilot. "We were steely!"
It was a good thing they climbed to 39,000 before the problem started. They never would have had enough altitude to recover otherwise.
One mystery is how a tree branch got into the landing gear. Had the plane in fact dived as low as the tree tops?
@@cchris874 What is the source for your comment? Please link to it.
@@buddyrogers1353 Google "tree branch stuck in the right landing gear", will take you to Google Books.
This is the famous "twisted sister" airplane. I flew at Express One International and we had this airplane as a cargo jet, N220NE. I flew this airplane many times. The fuselage was twisted from this escapade, and you could NOT get the rudder trim right. It always flew sideways. What happened in this situation is that the captains at this airline believed that by extending the trailing edge flaps to the first detent that they would increase wing area [true] and thus reduce fuel consumption [FALSE]. But by putting out the first position of flaps on a 727 you are also putting out some of the leading edge devices. THUS, some "captains" at this airline devised the idea of pulling the circuit breaker that controlled the leading edge devices and then went to the first flap position, thus increasing wing area without extending the leading edge devices, something that Boeing never intended and was a big NO NO! In any case, the flight engineer in this case went to the bathroom and then came back in the cockpit and noticed a circuit breaker pulled out. "Hmm. That's strange?" he said to himself, and then pushed it back in. The leading edge devices then extended at .84 mach...
34,000 feet of crazy descent later after several barrel rolls [And a bunch of missing parts!] they got the airplane back under control. I've been told they went to 1.05 mach, they broke the speed of sound, 727's have done this many times accidentally. Boeing build quality. Try that with an A320 some time, you'll wind up in a coffin if there is anything left of you. In any case, they got the plane under control and landed in Detroit; It never carried a passenger again. It was converted to cargo and the last I heard of it was in 2005. Check the airliner lists online, I think it is parked. Frankly, I think it should have been recycled in 1979, but that's me-
So interesting - thanks for sharing these details!
I flew for TWA in the late ‘80s and that’s what we heard from other pilots.
Thanks for the detailed insight. When I saw the plane roll in the vid, I assumed they were all goners. Off topic, but what do you think of the 737 Max. Is it a bad design or just pilot error?
@@rl1800 Bad design. The 737 is about 300 bandaids and some duct tape trying to keep a 1968 design that is cheap to build alive. They should have ditched the 737 and kept the 757; They would have sold twice as many planes. The sad thing about this? The 757 and the 737 have the same fuselage, only the cockpit and wing are different. The 757 has a 767 tail, so there are actually more individual parts in the 737 design than the 757; I suspect it would have been cheaper to keep the 757 design. But I'm not a Boeing accountant...
Boeing used to build quality, not anymore. Useless mentioning Airbus in this case!
Thank God they made it safely on the ground, thats the beauty of it.. I took a flight out of Detroit once and after 20 minutes in the air we had to come back as one of the engines weren't reading properly. I have the upmost respect to our pilots and crew, they risk their lives to make our flights safe... I love the 727 such a beautiful machine made ever made.. great vid Allen..
I was on a Northwest flight out of Detroit headed to Las Vegas many years ago that returned to the airport shortly after takeoff and was quickly surrounded by fire trucks on the runway. Fortunately there was no fire. Sounds like we might have been on the same flight.
Great vid Allec. I will say this. I LOVED being a passenger on these 727-100 series jets. They were so well made and so very reliable and attractive. Always a terrific ride for sure. So glad that whatever the cause, everyone and the plane arrived OK. J
You can put me in the group of sticking up for the crew. I have nearly 8,000 hours in 727's and this is something I would have never tried. As far as the "A" system hydralics, when you have a leak you instantly lose all A system fluid in the blink of an eye.(3500 +/- psi system) I knew many TWA pilots that flew with Capt. Gibson prior to this incident and none of them think that he is guilty of pulling the LE breaker and lowering the TE flaps. He was light enough to be at FL390 so there would be no need to do this. This airplane eventually ended up as a freighter with Ameri-Jet and several of my friends flew it. I have many fond memories of flying 727's. Great airplane. Thanks for the video Allec.
Hypothetically what would motivate a flight crew to do something like this? I understand why management would like the idea of saving a few bucks on fuel or better on time performance or whatever, but why would a flight crew think it's worth it?
@@Milkmans_Son "supposedly the airline had been conducting a fuel-saving "contest". "
Which flight sim..P3D or X-plane?
You're not supposed to ROLL the darn things, Cap! Wow. Great recover, regardless of what the NTSB said. He saved all his passengers' lives. Go T-DUB!
Quite an intense flight there, though it had a positive ending in where everyone survived. That one had me clenching my teeth there, to be honest. Happy New Year, Allec, and I look forward to your future episodes!
So, my very layman question would be: "Why would the captain bulk erase the tape as it could have had critical information as to why the flap extended?" The "crucial information" I am surmising was the discussion of pulling the circuit breaker. Again, if the pilot was innocent, the tapes could have strengthened his case that he did not mess with the flap extension.
Ps. My other question is, with two rolls, I would think there would have been some serious injuries.
From when they went into a dive to when they landed at Detroit was ~45 minutes so regardless if the Captain actually erased the CVR the recording of them in the dive and the events leading up to it would have been taped over.
The NTSB was right in their assessment of what caused the "upset" of the B-727.
I am a retired Captain and flew the 727. Gibson was trying to avoid the head winds and climbed to FL 390. The airplane was too heavy to fly at that altitude so Gibson told the Flight engineer to pull the leading edge flaps/slats circuit breaker so they would not extend when he extended the trailing edge flaps to 2 degrees. The engineer pulled the wrong circuit breaker and the leading edge devices extended and one failed because the max speed for extending the leading edge devices is 230 knots. The "A" system failure was because the hydraulic fluid was lost due to the slat's departure from the wing. The Yaw damper problem was due to the "A" system failure.
The gear problem was also due to the "A" system failure but the gear can be extended by cranking each gear down with a hand crank, through three access panels in the cockpit floor.
The "fly-by" was not needed but may have been done to confuse the issue.
Gibson and his crew lied about the incident but the NTSB and EVERY 727 pilot in the world knew that they were covering up a self-induced, near fatal accident.
"Hoot" was fired.
Did you happen to read Scapegoat" by Emilio Corsetti? One argument he makes is that the alleged maneuver was never confirmed to have been used by a single 727 pilot, either in person testimony or in writing. It was, he claims, pure rumor. Where is your evidence every 727 pilot sided with the NTSB?
Also this below: "I have nearly 8,000 hours in 727's and this is something I would have never tried. As far as the "A" system hydralics, when you have a leak you instantly lose all A system fluid in the blink of an eye.(3500 +/- psi system) I knew many TWA pilots that flew with Capt. Gibson prior to this incident and none of them think that he is guilty of pulling the LE breaker and lowering the TE flaps. He was light enough to be at FL390 so there would be no need to do this."
When I read seemingly credible claims by experienced 727 pilots, such as the above, and yours, could you suggest how we lay readers might deal with these contradictory claims? Is there a more definitive source of evidence?
I felt like the crew were being thrown under the bus - right up until the revelation concerning the erased tape. Shady!
Larry you are probably unaware that the CVR was adopted with the agreement and understanding that it was for use in the event that the crew did not survive an incident. When the crew survives they can give there information. The bulk erase function was installed to support the agreement. The crew survived, landed, taxied to the gate and parked the breaks. They completed the cycle required to erase the tape.
@@jayreiter268
@Jay Reiter Bullshit they were covering their asses , Gibson was an air traffic controller at Chicago Center before he went on to fly for TWA and the old timers that knew him knew the back story which was when the FE left the cockpit to use the head the circuit breaker for the slats were pulled and the pilots set the flaps to 2 degrees to see if the aircraft would preform better , the FE came back and didnt know what the pilots had done and saw the Slat CB had popped and reset them causing the inboard slats to extend .
Except this was an emergency landing lol, they should not have erased the tape.
@Clint Stephens
Exactly. Even not being a pilot I would have had enough common sense NOT to erase the CVR....
Why would anyone erase the CVR after an emergency landing in a rollercoaster? I can’t think of anything but they’re trying to hide something.
Sure the plane landed safely and everyone survived but NOW YOU’RE IN DETROIT!!!
Is that supposed to mean something.
Dont Know oh yes. Devote a lot of your time figuring it out.
@@geoffreyludkin8672 What makes you think you are worth 1 minute of anyone's time?
Dont Know well so far you’ve spent two. Take a little advise and grow up.
@@geoffreyludkin8672 You are and will always be, a loser.
I heaved a huge sigh of relief when they landed safely. The most comforting words in these videos are “everyone survived.”
I just flew to Jacksonville Florida and back. That being done, now I can resume watching these videos from the safety of my living room.
i thought i was the only one who did that. i watch these videos up to about 2 days before i fly and then the day after my trip, back to the videos.
Everyone lived. That's what matters. They all got through it. Good flying to right the plane and get it out of a rolling nosedive. Nice vid, Allec :)
What did you do with the time you saved not typing eo?
Couldnt the "get them up" scream mean an order to stop trying to use the 2 degree flaps - to get them back to retracted position? Just thought it makes sense...
It makes a lot of sense, didn't even click my mind, thanks..
I bet that's what he was really referring to, not the air brakes.
That's definitely a possibility.
@@NPCLIVESMATTER723 also the climb to 39k
Indeed, rather than shouting “retract the flaps” which would’ve pointed the finger of blame right at him.
Those pilots did one insane job there saving that plane despite the insane fu*k up of pilot error possibly. That was a true miracle they had enough time falling that height and rolling that violently and G forces to survive without structural failure of the plane. That must have been terrifying to be a passenger on that flight but man what an outcome and EVERYONE SURVIVES! :)
@Mighty Muffins
Indeed if they wouldn't have been at FL390 I have a terrible feeling they would have crashed.
Not my favorite a/c except in very had wx.
They were very solid and well designed.
The Captain is a hero in my opinion.
Landing without flaps? That must have been a fast one! Lots to unpack in this story, and while there is a lot that doesn't add up it really does look like the NTSB is the omniscient-must-never-be-questioned deity here which is concerning because even the NTSB is not above making mistakes
Interesting to note that some newer aircraft have a system that automatically deploys small amounts of flap to keep the wing efficient.
Thank you very much for picking that incident up!
Happy birthday Allec. Thank you for always delivering excellence 💐🇿🇦
i was working at a nearby sector at cleveland center the night that this happened. the bumpy ride at FL350 caused the request to climb to FL370 - which then was wrong altitude for direction of flight - which the controller was unable to grant due to traffic. so TW841 was cleared to FL390. what happened was the flight engineer had left the cockpit. the captain knew the aircraft was too heavy to make FL390 until some fuel burned off, so he instructed the copilot to pull the slat breaker - which is located on the engineer's panel. on a 727 the flaps and slats deploy together. this gave the plane the ability to go to FL390. after leveling at 39, the engineer returned to the cockpit, saw the breaker popped, reset it, out come the slats and over she goes. many passengers and cabin crew were seriously injured.
years later i was sitting at a bar in buffalo relating the story to a friend. overhearing this was another guy at the bar. he was the engineer.
I didn't recall this near tragedy as I started to view it, so I had no idea the outcome. When the aircraft landed SAFELY, I was overcome with relief & joy! I can't imagine the moments of sheer terror the poor people on that plane went through as it corkscrewed towards the ground 😫 I hope those folks have all gone on to live full, productive & joy filled lives, as they were ALL so lucky to have been given another chance at life 🙏 don't know if the pilot's should be praised or smited, since the cause of the incident is in question, but if I had been on that plane, well I would have kissed the S.O.B!
As a passenger who doesn't know anything about flying an airplane, I will always remember this video as an example of how it is possible to survive in a plane that has flown upside down.
Upside down is nuttin.
It’s very survivable.
In the first part of the video, I'm thinking Capt Gibson is one skilled pilot & that he's recovering control of his aircraft from some system failure he had no control of. But, then, we get "the rest of the story."
Good ending, video was magnificent, bravo mate
I always appreciate these more nuanced and mysterious accounts! I appreciate your content, looking forward to the next video!
"Ladies and gentlemen, the captain has turned on the bowel evacuation light..."
Time for some light-hearted comedy. I was on a TWA Flight in 1977, crossing the Atlantic, east to west. The most gorgeous Air Hostess went to a man in front of me and said "Sir - would you like some of our TWA Coffee?" The man looked at the beautiful Air Hostess, and with a wry grin, he replied: "No thanks, but I wouldn't mind some of your TWA Tea".
@@peterduxbury927 A friend of mine pointed out me when I had left my ticket on her table that the way they designed the cover with TWA TWA TWA printed in several rows across the jacket with a little imagination that word would be obvious . Their ticket logo never looked the same to me,and yes,I think i remember the beautiful flight attendant and like my youth I miss them both,
@@michaelarmstrong11 I'm don't really know if the Americans are fully familiar with the 'T' word in mind, and (I think) they prefer alternative names, but I have no idea what these names are! Back in TWA Days, (the 70's), flying was much more relaxed - that's for sure.
+Peter Duxbury American here..."twat", I get it. (I wonder if the Air Hostess got it?)
He needn't turn on such a light as it was apparently fully understood with the passengers and in accordance with such an incident was fully complied with.
I had a dream last night I was in a plane that crashed immediately after take off, but before it hit the ground, I jumped out the window and lived. So weird how watching all these videos eventually brought on a crashing dream for me.
Thank God everyone survived. As a passenger, I can only imagine what they were thinking when they became inverted. God knows I'd be sitting two inches higher.
i had a similar dream not too long ago, it was very vivid. i didn’t jump out the window, but i somehow got myself out of the plane when it crashed and was on fire. if only it were that easy in real life 😬
it’s incredible that the crew recovered from such a dire situation and landed safely with no casualties. i’m assuming there were injuries but damn. i understand the backlash the captain got because of the supposed events laid out by the ntsb... such a complicated case.
Don’t worry, I have dumb, unexplainable dreams all the time. Sadly, erotic ones.
Just stupid ones.
Several years ago I dreamed I was using the plane's bathroom when it started spiraling towards the ground, and I was angry because I didn't want the toilet to be where I died. Then I woke up before we hit the ground.
Anyone remember the exact number of people who have fallen without a parachute and lived? Higher than you think but seriously don't test it you'll die.
Thank you, Allec, for another great video!!
Im so happy when they land safe
Yeah, me too. So many of these do not get that sort of happy ending!
In April 1979, the runway this aircraft landed on was Runway 3L. (Later renamed 4R/22L when runway 4L/22R opened in 2001). At the time it was 10,500 feet long and DTW's longest by 500 feet.
I love your channel. Suspenseful and then the technical explanations afterwards are excellent.
Wow. Great start to 2020, Allec!. So what really happened? The CVR. issue sounds a bit shady. But at least everyone survived. Thanks for this one
Your videos are so good Alecc! They got me interested in aviation 👍👏👏❤️
Love this one, Allec! Well done! As a former TWA avionics mechanic, this story is legendary amongst ex-TWA'ers. Love all the great shots of this aircraft in different paint schemes, along with a few other TWA planes.
Happy Birthday Allec!! Hope you had a wonderful day...
I love the videos where nobody is killed or hurt. My favorite kind.
At cruise speed in a no turbulence area of airspace you can be sure a bunch of passengers and cabin staff were not buckled into seats. There must have been at least some significant bumps and bruises.
I went to aviation maintenance school in the 90's, one of our teachers (prior TWA mechanic) told us the rest of the story. The NTSB didn't believe the pilots because once you push the button to erase the tape, it begins recording right away again, and then the pilot said "There, let the bastards figure that one out".
Wow! Well that was very unwise of him. Besides, no pilot is above the law no matter how cunning his moves. I guess Gibson got his comeuppance.
@@liamb8644 Could be the pilot was using the 2 degree flaps to increase speed or decrease fuel consumption and things went "south". He pulled his fat out of the fire and kept flying but expect he didn't pull that trick again after that near catastrophe.
> then the pilot said "There, let the bastards figure that one out" < Around the time investigation of this incident concluded I heard pretty much that same account (third-hand), plus how supposedly the airline had been conducting a fuel-saving "contest". This was a period of spiking fuel prices, and everyone was scrambling to deal with it. For example, my company tasked me with looking into the fuel savings (if any) from taxiing a twin on just one engine.
@@marcmcreynolds2827 It is indeed a revelation to learn that Captain Pilot Gibson did this. I had heard many rumors that (on 4 - engine Passenger Jets), the Pilot can fly it on three engines, to save on the 'running hours' of an engine, which spreads the Maintenance Periods further apart, saving on costs.And Overall Company Profits.
@@marcmcreynolds2827 I've heard this "fuel-saving" story as well. If the company really was promoting this sort of thing, the pilots would have been better off telling the truth and that the company expected these sort of "efforts", probably would have cleared their names if it was an unwritten company policy....
Hay Alec great job on these videos your doing a great service to the people who perished in these accidents, so others know and can learn from these incidents thanks
It's Allec not Alec dufus.
Despite the errors of the crew, it’s actually EXTREMELY impressive they managed to recover from this. Good job.
"Captain, you're writing checks your body can't cash!
You're going to be flying cargo planes full of rubber dog shit out Hong Kong!"
Get them up' the pilot screamed.' But the FO was unaware of the plane buffeting because he was working out the ground speed'? How could he NOT be aware of falling & spiralling thousands of feet a second with the pilot turning green sweating profusely and screaming at him??! It's not like reading a book by the fire and you hear your partner say something 'what dear, did you say something? 'Yes' they reply 'would you like some mini marshmallows on your cocoa'? Some mad stuff was going on up there. We'll never know what really happened.
The plane goes inverted, it’s yawing to the right repeatedly, you get false readings related to the landing gear, any landing configuration is a problem, you have to make an emergency landing and you decide to erase the CVR once you get the thing on the ground, but you deny the flap adjustment procedure?! Sounds fishy...
Fishy or not, I am just glad everyone survived. I got nauseated just watching and listening to the video. Thanks for the upload, Allex.
The plane freaking went inverted and the first officer had no idea? I find that hard to believe too. Especially since the captain warned the flight crew it was going to happen. I don't buy the idea of the first officer trying to calculate the ground speed in that instance. A passenger jet flying inverted is always an emergency condition and that demands the basics that every pilot learns in flight school: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate IN THAT ORDER!
@@DeltaFoxtrotWhiskey3 I concur but am sure there was a lot fu*k this airline, and plane and sh*t I don't know what to do or how the f*ck to get it under control. Rather just delete all than expose any likely hood of incompetence.
Even if the CVR is erased - what about the FDR? Surely, that would indicate what the Pilots did - second by second.
@Slarti Bartfast there was not proof of conversations in the cockpit but given the circumstances I have merely voiced my humble opinion of what may have been said 😉
I remember something about the NTSB finding other circumstantial evidence that the slat breakers had been pulled. Something like some of the markings for the breaker being rubbed down as if that breaker had been repeatedly cycled. This was apparently a common thing for a lot of pilots of this type aircraft at that time. And if memory serves, the 727 could be a thirsty aircraft and pilots were encouraged to save fuel.
Great job by the pilot and flight crew
Great video. I feel badly for the pilot. He got the plane down safely and there doesn’t seem to be actually proof that the crew messes with the flaps or slats or whatever. The NTSB just assumes what may have happened and trashed a man’s reputation and he has to avenue of appeal. Doesn’t seem fair.
Awesome video Allec! Happy New Year!
Yeah, same here. The pilots and crew did great in this situation, especially the captain. I feel bad that he's being accused with no real evidence.
@@DorianTMChannel I thought the same but their investigation must have revealed things,that without reading the report, we can only guess at ! The part that can't be overlooked is that the Cockpit tape was erased once the plane landed. Its possible they trying to do the 2 degree trim and it all went to heck!
@@mileshigh1321 This manuver only came to the NTSB's mind after being suggested as an occurrence by a First Officer from rival United Airlines, despite no evidence that anyone ever attempted to use it. The NTSB had members who refused more plausable explanations.
@@charlesjwin If that's the case,it does sound like an injustice! I hope after all this time that things have gotten better!
Sue Kelley I don’t think the NTSB “ just assumed” anything, they conducted their tests and the tests pointed to the pilot.. it’s true the pilot did a good job to keep the plane safe but he also knew the first thing they would do was to review the recordings, that being said he should’ve been smart enough to not to erase them. Why would he erase his own evidence of proof? The pilot trashed his own reputation by throwing away the evidence and record of the flight. Ironically it’s very similar to what’s happening in our own federal government now
I worked for TWA back then and had been on N840TW many times but did not know of its involvement in the Gibson matter. Who knows what really caused this near tragedy? Those 727s were incredible workhorses. Our first two delivered there, N850TW and N851TW were delivered from Boeing in October 1964. When I left the airline in 1992 both were still going strong along with N840TW. I'm certain they are now scrap.
Wow .. Gibson’s got the plane down and save many lives , but he shouldn’t have erased audio recordings which he and the other pilots denied .....
Okay He was lucky he managed to bring the plane down and save his own life too . But really no body really knows what really took place. That being said . I’m glad everyone survived
Yes, there is someone who knows what happened. His name is Occam.
@@jamesp9226 So does Occams Razor say that the most likely outcome was a component failure in flight rather than a cover up by the flight crew.
IMHO it feels like a component failure to me. The problem is there is no evidence either way and to blame the crew is unfair. You can blame them for deleting the CVR but not for causing the incident without more evidence.
@@111doomer its possible they deleted it not knowing if it would incriminate or exonerate. but they may have done everything correctly and still be unsure enuff to erase it to b safe.
Gibson and his first mate were known to FO. they got caught, the engineer didn't know what they did and punched the "flap control" circuit breaker when he got back from the head, he didn't know that they were flying out of the envelope, and when he did the aircraft did its thing as designed. Rollin and poll em, down. They capt Gibson an first officer should not have bragged of their " accomplishment and fu" to the engineer. Something with similar outcome happened to a British Aw 111. The report goes so far but there6more to it than the "report". At least the Brits can keep the lid on Pandoras box. That must be the Irish in all the brits
@@robertstack2144 What they were accused of doing was recognized, within the industry, as a common procedure in the 727/100
Want people to believe you? Don't go erasing the tape.
It's too bad Richard Nixon wasn't aboard...he could have warned the pilot not to do that.
Tampering with something that collects evidence - he had a lot of gall appealing the decision 🤨
wow first allec video on 2020 , cool
Shortly after the plane landed 82 customers lined up at the Car Rental agency.
wow - this was unreal - talk about pucker factor - imagine the passengers !!
Pretty sure most of them never boarded an airplane ever again.
If they has sand in their butt cracks...
You'd have *Diamonds*.
Fake Name : 🤣🤣Every time l stop laughing, l get started again! Thanks !😂🌈
Fake Name : 🤣🤣Every time l stop laughing, l get started again! Thanks !😂🌈
My mind takes me back to the movie Airplane! "Okay everybody now, get in crash position"
I certainly don't know anything about flying but no matter what happened....Captain Gibson was a hero that night. His actions to recover control of the plane saved everyone on board.
Captain Gibson is a hero the way i see it. Company just trying to clear their own asses. Hail captain and crew!
When I went through A&P school, my one instructor had previously been with TWA for many years in maintenance and told us about this flight. This is the first time that I have gotten to see it in detail! From what I remember, everyone survived but there were some very serious injuries among the stewardesses. He told us that the ultimate cause of the accident was that they pulled the breaker...
I remember this incident as it made all the newspapers around America and Canada and there were plenty of air disasters at the time . I am open to any possibility however it is rather strange that after such a horrific experience the Captain would flick the switch on the runway to erase the CVR.
He didn't erase the CVR as the three of them were so busy flying the plane to Detroit, running through the checklists and then coordinating the evacuation that there was no time to devise a cover story, nor did the CVR ever cross their mind. The investigators never even considered the possibility that there was a fault with the CVR nor did they ever analyze/inspect the CVR for any faults.
Captain was caught between the rock and the hard place. If TWA told him to use the slat on high altitude flights, he was flying as he was told. Great job on safe landing under the circumstances. He should be praised not ostracized.
The Nazis didn't get away with following orders. Had he thrown TWA under the bus it would have probably been worse for him and once he said his story he had to stick with it.
Awesome pilot skills
That pilot tried to get his reputation back but he could never get it back. He may have recovered that plane but he could have just as well not recovered it. And think of those people on that plane, it would be very hard to ever get over what he did to them. It only takes once to get caught doing the wrong thing to destroy your whole life. This wasn't something the captain had never done, this is something they had been doing so long they got sloppy and pulled the fuss to the aileron before it was back in place. It almost cost 100 lives.
That captain could be considered a hero his hands more than full and to keept his composure in the face of certain death he had emience balls of steele, but can also be considered a criminal and held liable for disabling the circuit breakers so it's a catch 22, in the end even though it was a hell of a save they should have NEVER been in that position to begin with so basically he brought it on himself but almost killing 200 people in the process.
Nice one Allec
I miss TWA
‘Everyone on board survives’ - always great to see 👍
...and 💩s his pants
One bit of information that was at the beginning: The pilot said that he had a 100 mpr head wind and that is why he asked ATC in Toronto, (not even in the country he is flying) to give him clearance for 39,000 feet. The ATC said that all other planes had said there was no wind at all. So the pilot made up the story that he had head wind so he could use the little trick with the 2% wing tip ailerons. So he used the ailerons to get the plane to 39,000 feet but before the ailerons are back in position they remove the fuss that goes to the aileron and it is stuck forward which causing the plane to roll over. That pilot and the two other captains with him had done this before, this is something they have been doing. I think they had done it so often they removed the fuss before the aileron was back in position, not being a careful as they had done it before. It's so horrible to think captains are up front doing their own thing because they think they are so smart and they know it all. This almost cost everyone their lives. At 3:56 the Copilot testified he didn't notice the airplanes attitude. He was calculated ground airspeed even though the plane is falling out of the sky, everyone was most likely screaming. The pilot erased the type and spent years trying to prove he wasn't doing what he was so clearly doing. How many people loose their good name, good reputation, good job, friends, income, maybe it cost his marriage and home as well because of arrogance..
I feel like they attempted to extend slats 2 degrees at cruise for supposedly better fuel consumption. Turning off breakers to remove restrictions that would otherwise prevent an extension at that speed.
However only one side of slats extended, and the other perhaps even detached from the aircraft, causing the roll.
So they quickly retracted the slat(s) and managed to regain control. The CVR was probably wiped in order to try and cover up the way they tried to get around the airspeed restrictions for slat extensions.
The video doesn’t tell the story of what actually happened here. I won’t go into all of the specifics on this, but. The crew put the plane into a configuration that was prohibited by Boeing, to reach a higher altitude.
The plane with its weight and configuration, was not able to reach FL39 in the Boeing approved configuration.
It was a known practice at the time to get extra performance and lift out of the 727 was to set the flaps at 2°, which gave more lift, but when you selected 2° flaps, it also extended the leading slats.
Air crews figured out if you pulled the circuit breaker for the leading edge slats, you could select number two flaps and the slats on the leading edge would not deploy, this allowed the plane to climb to higher altitudes, but this was not approved by Boeing, as Boeing had parameters set for speeds and altitudes that the flaps could be extended, case in point with the 727 they were not to be deployed over 20,000 feet.
The engineer left the cockpit to go to the bathroom, while he was gone , The captain got out of his seat, went to the engineers panel and disabled the leading edge slats by pulling the breaker.
The engineer returned from the bathroom while checking his panel he noticed that the circuit breaker had popped so he pushed it back in.
This caused the leading edge slats to deploy, resulting in the plane losing speed until it stalled.
The crew also erased the cockpit voice recorder after they landed.
The missing slat was torn away from the aircraft during the descent.
There was 9 minutes of recording available where the pilots were talking to each other and to the TWA Ops in Detroit. No analysis of the CVR was ever conducted to determine if there was a pre-existing fault or if the wiring was damaged by the 6G pullout. Based on the fact that the captain left everything in the cockpit to help the investigators figure out what happened is inconsistent with someone trying to hide something they did.
Great audio book on this. Poor guy was tormented all the way to his death.
EVERYONE at TWA was doing that little trick at the time to get "over the hump". Rumor has it that they did it while the F/E was using the lav and when he came back, saw the circuit breaker for the slats pulled, and he pushed it back in.
Joel: Can you explain "over the hump" in more detail ?
Thanks !
@@hellosunshine1090 it's a euphemism to get up to speed without losing the Mach. At high altitudes is difficult to do. Setting flaps 1 or 2 while disabling the slats allowed for a slight deflection of the flaps and gave the airplane that extra lift. Most pilots knew about it
@@joelt4416
Excellent insight.
Next time I'm at the controls of a 727, I'm ready for that mode, right ? Lol...Happy New Year 2020 to ya !
How do they discover this little trick ? What does a pilot when flying at cruise press any button and Wait to see its effect ?
@@andrewsimonsen6583 you need to be a pilot to understand how this happens. :)
I can’t imagine how scary it would be to see the ground pop up in your cockpit windows and see you are rolling toward the ground
Awesome video Allec!👍👍
Capt Gibson and crew should not have bragged about flying out of the envelope by pulling a circuit breaker. People talk!!
Good video as always!
Brilliant as always thank you - AJI.
Excellent video 👍✈️
Erasing the tape was asking for trouble.
Having grown up in the northern suburbs of Detroit, moving to Los Angeles, then back to the Port Huron (45 miles NE of Detroit) and watching hours of incredible airline stories, some happy, some heartbreaking. I am truly impressed that you took the time to call Metro Airport (well known nickname throughout tge state) by its rightful name: Detroit Metropolitan Wayne County Airport. And yes, it is an international airport. I spend some pretty happy hours planespotting. My husband and I didn't have a lot living in Torrance, California, but we lived reasonably (like 20 munites or so) close to LAX - Los Angeles International Airport. The 747s would taxi right next to the fence where we would park and the tips of their wings were within easy reach if we wanted to touch them. As LAX's runways are east/west in layout we could count 20 or more aircraft lining up for landing. Many many happy memories. You've brought part of my past, time spent with my husband before he passed in 2008, and just made this lady most grateful for the quality and well done videos you put together. You, sir, are truly gifted and share your love of aviation with all of us. Thank you thank you thank you!!
The slat extending theory was stated to be a frequent practice by the NTSB, but never used by others. Which is true? Looks like the NTSB put considerable weight on the CVR wipe, that no crew member admitted to. Even if normal to erase after landing, why would anyone do this after what had happened, unless it's the beginning of the coverup.
David you are probably unaware that the CVR was adopted with the agreement and understanding that it was for use in the event that the crew did not survive an incident not spy on the crew. When the crew survives they can give their information. The bulk erase function was installed to support the agreement. The crew survived, landed, taxied to the gate and parked the breaks. They completed the cycle required to erase the tape.
If they tried that highspeed cruise two degree flap setting while killing the circuit breakers to the forward slats, something didn't go as planned. Admitting to doing that might have been a career ender but they should have not erased the CVR after landing, which seems to be a dead give away.
@@jayreiter268 Then why did no one admit to wiping the tape? If it was only for use during the event, how would a crew in the midst of a crisis use it? I don't understand.
@@jayreiter268 oops, misunderstood the agreed upon use of the CVR. Though for its use only if the crew dies, means that lessons learned from near misses would most likely be incomplete. If the FAA agreed to erase the CVR after ANY significant transient, they had their heads up their collective asses. There is no such thing as too much information when you are trying to improve safety. The industry I worked in for 40+ years learned that about 50 years ago.
David the flight crew does not use the CVR. The CVR is meant to be recovered after a fatal accident. It is one of "black boxes" (orange in color). The early type as used in the 727 used magnetic tape. Most of the ones I worked on were not very readable as the tape had been recorded over so many times. The modern ones use digital memory. As far as why no one admitted erasing the tape, they erased the tape routinely. On this occasion no one remembered doing it. Kind of like me this afternoon. I do not remember if I set the bottom latches on the the shop roll up door.
I wonder how many of the passengers never flew again after this?
100%. if its not 100% it shonuff is 99%. it took me 6 or 7 years to fly again after the plane i was on dropped suddenly. was horrific. was defo beyond turbulence, but we regain control after 15-30 seconds of hell
I'd probably be less scared of flying. Tbh
33,3 Anders, I know it's unlikely but I had a similar experience. You weren't by wild coincidence on UA 1028, LAX to ORD in 2008, were you? Diverted to Denver due to injuries?
All of them
Sure they didn't appreciate captain Gibson's dark humour. Especially those who occupied the restrooms.
@Allec Joshua Ibey Any thoughts on making one for Air Canada 621 in 1970? It's an interesting crash, the miscommunication between the Captain and Co-pilot on whether to arm or engage the speed brakes on the flare, and the resulting crash. I haven't seen any videos of it anywhere.
That aircraft remained in service. Someone scribbled "Hoots Looper" on the side of the fuselage by the forward left cabin door. Hoot was the captain's nickname.
After returning to the air, Captain Gibson developed a bleeding ulcer that caused three years of disability. He finally retired in 1989, dying in 2015.
THEY SAY, WHAT GOES AROUND, COMES AROUND. I bet he didn't say words to the effect "let the bastards sort that one out" Re. the ulcer.
@@rosemarydudley9954 In the absence of any concrete or irrefutable evidence pointing to Captain Gibson,we needn't be so critical to the point of suggesting that his ulcer was his "payback" for any alleged misconduct. Let us remember that despite the severity of the incident,Captain Gibson and his crew managed to land the B727 safely,thereby saving the lives of all aboard. Let us not be quick to condemn,lest we ourselves be condemned,as we are all human and capable of error. Rest in peace,Capt. Harvey Gibson🙏
How did the first officer not notice being in a roll and even INVERTED because he was so absorbed in his paperwork??? That bit made zero sense.
I just love that song that plays at the end!
It is! I'm going to have it played at my funeral
AFTER BEING INVERTED - you'd think that the passengers weren't prepared for ANY other kind of landing!!! 😲😳
Good morning Allec.
Happy Birthday and Happy New Year 🥂🥂
This one is really good for start 2020, thanks for video ❤
After a major incident...ROLLING the airplane...you erase the CVR?? Accident my arse, he made a big mistake.
That beautiful boeing 727 I wish they would still fly😭
such a beauty and fast take off, steep landing
once a jet goes perpendicular to the horizon, not once but twice, it usually means horrific loss of life. These guys pulled it out of the bag and saved the day, including a high speed landing that nowadays, usually means a wrecked plane with horrific loss of life. So that's 3 saves.
Should have gotten medals rather than ruined careers. Modern pilots are computer drivers. They get in situations like this and it all goes to hell fast.
Anyways.
That was fun seeing that it just whoosh in the air
Thanks Allec...Happy New Year Buddy!!!
Ok, typically hydraulic controlled components, left and right are not independent of each other, they are not (A) systematic meaning one control switch for both flaps, ailerons, landing gear ect. This means one control switch will/should control both flight controls..... Problems with flight controls are usually found out during preflight check, provided those checks are actually done by the crew. In this case, from what I read, it sounds like a check valve was stuck in the closed position. Jammed shut not allowing equal flow to both control surfaces. An "O" ring, a gasket, a spring ect. probably was at fault.
Captain Gibson's erasing 21+ minutes of the CVR tape to "prevent inappropriate use of recorded conversations", then claiming he did not remember doing so is highly unusual considering what happened during this flight. what could Gibson's motive be?