Why I Left Carbine's WildStar
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2023
- I talk about why I left the development of WildStar at Carbine Studios in 2011. Along with Fallout 2, WildStar is the only other game I did not complete, but like Fallout 2, it did ship without me, getting released in 2014.
- Ігри
I worked at Carbine for 6 years as well (three with you, three after you left). The power struggle there was absolutely crazy and got worse after you left. You could write a book about how crazy that dev cycle was and the constant power struggle leading up to (and post) launch. I'm proud of my time there (though I am not entirely proud of my sound design on the game), and I'm proud to have gotten to work with you for the time that I did even though we rarely worked side by side. This video series should be required viewing for people trying to get into game development. It's rare that anyone in the industry pulls back the curtain and you do so with a frank honesty that is refreshing and important.
Remember when they tore down the posters of what Carbine represented because "those were our old values"?
What, so we're pro-nepotism and BS now, and anti-craftmastery?
the studio head would’ve been Jeremy Gaffney and the art director was Matt Mocarski.
> frank honesty
In my experience, honesty is rarely appreciated.
It was so weird after my time at Carbine going to another studio and after all that was normalized working at Carbine to experience something completely different. Good grief, I have so many horror stories. Also hi! Hope you're doing well these days!
I knew someone that worked at Carbine, specifically on Wildstar. I hope it wasn't you because oof. But they didn't work on sound so I doubt it. At the time I was working for a convention organizing startup and was put on a remote project in Cali as a NYC native. For the event I was given a flight and sent out there to help oversee the event, amongst other things. The convention staff decided to room me with this guy and his wife, and at the time the only MMO I had played was Final Fantasy 11. Right off the bat he told me FFXI sucked and WoW was better, but that the game he was working on was going to kill everything else in the genre. It was Wildstar. He pulled out one of those massive Alienware laptops and started playing the game so I could watch. Mind you, all I really said was that it looked cool, but I was already invested in FFXI and didn't feel like I was going to quit any time soon - I was already playing that game for over 10 years at that point.
He got pretty hostile at that point and started insulting me and the game. Then started a smear campaign about how I was awful and all this other ridiculous nonsense, how I was an outsider not from Cali that didn't belong there, that kind of stuff, all over the fact that I wasn't enthused over an MMO I barely knew anything about. His wife was very hostile to me in general, underhandedly insulting my makeup and other things. When I got back to my room that night I at least had the room to myself - He and wife had everyone else chip in on a new room so they wouldn't have to deal with me, I guess? I never got a clear answer on that predicament. My relations with that specific event were pretty permanently tarnished over that, with the only person defending me being the lead organizer and some staff members I worked with directly. Neither of us were part of the event in following years.
Overall this is the story of why I never even *tried* Wildstar. It looked like a game I might have even enjoyed, but the whole experience left such a sour taste in my mouth that I refused to touch it. I eventually moved on to FFXIV, unsurprisingly.
Thanks for the kind words, Tim. I still think about the two years we got to work together fondly. It was interesting to hear what happened after I left, seemed like quite a struggle. Wildstar was also the second game I walked away from. Walking away from a project is hard, but it is the right decision when you realize it has to happen.
Thanks Zoid!
Why don't you all get back together and make a new game?
@@decem_sagittaeIt's not as easy as you make it sound, unfortunately.
Zoid! Loved your work in the early QW days.
All due respect to Tim, I don't mean to steal his spotlight here at all, but I couldn't find any way to message you on any other platform and I just want to say that you have worked on so many games that I've loved and I'm so grateful that you have existed. Over the last 20 years of me gaming, I've seen your time on almost every game I've enjoyed. If I were capable of achievements, I would strive to be like you. Thanks for using your talent and time to make video games
I was hired to work as a Content Designer at Carbine in February of 2011. I remember at the time being extremely excited to work on your team, having been a fan of your past work. And then over the next few months there wasn't much chance to interact or talk shop. I got antsy enough about it I just spontaneously popped into your office one day to ask if you'd ever be up for going out for a lunch to discuss design stuff, and got a noncommittal answer that, still being pretty new, I just chalked up to you being super busy... and then you resigned a couple weeks later. Seeing what was going on in your part of the studio at that time makes all of that period much more understandable.
I stayed at the company right up until the game launched, and saw a lot of the subsequent fallout directly, but WOW does this fill in some really important knowledge gaps- especially helping explain why things felt weird right when I first got there.
I’m sorry I didn’t do more to make your onboarding a better experience, but I wasn’t at my best by that time. Part of the reason I left was because I knew I wasn’t doing right by my team.
@@CainOnGames No apology necessary. I figured a lot out regarding what was happening behind the scenes in the subsequent months and years, it was just really eye opening finally getting to hear your side of the story. I was really happy to hear about you working at Obsidian and being in a fulfilling role there.
This is the lesson when you learn that some people will always dislike you and no matter what you do, you will never win them over.
Those people are called Jackasses, and it's important to distance yourself from them.
I learned this the hard way.
The problem is, when the hand that feeds you also feeds them, and wont cut them off no matter how much evidence there is.
It's not impossible. I had someone who hated me in a similarly irrational way for years turn around to being almost deferential towards me.
In situations like this, the problem they have is almost always something entirely unrelated to the things they criticize you for, so it's impossible to improve the situation by talking about any of the things they bring up. Sometimes it's not even related to you. In my case it was that the guy's wife would compare him to me in a "why can't you be more like..." kind of way when I wasn't around. I only found out because I happened to hear her doing it when they didn't realize I could hear.
That's part of why it can get so irrational... he would always get especially upset if I tried to be helpful to him, which seems irrational in a vacuum, but with the greater context is makes perfect sense: if I helped him with things he had a hard time with and his wife found out, she would use it against him.
But yeah, I only figured it out because I happened to hear them talking (and perhaps because of one of my guiding principles, "the only correct solution is the one that solves the problem"), otherwise I would've just continued to assume it was something to do with one of the many arbitrary things he frequently got upset with me over. If the root of the problem comes from somewhere outside of work, but work is the only place you ever see them, then there's nothing you can do.
@@ItalianoYMexicano
You're right, you almost never really find out. But understanding that there's a reason, even if it's not one you'll ever know, makes it easier not to take it personally, or not to escalate the situation unnecessarily.
As for your non-friend Cameron, it's ironic you say his family is blessed to have him, considering that in most cases children who act like that do so in part because they have families who treat them poorly. Maybe the parents are bad people, or maybe good people who just aren't good at being parents, or maybe the other siblings are OK but one gets treated like the family punching bag. Who knows, but at the end of the day, a kid in middle school is only just starting to reach a point where they can really start to be held accountable for their own behavior. In summary? The family are more than likely getting exactly what they deserve from him.
Thank you for your comment.
Tim, all I can say is, the hostile environment continued after you left and permeated every level of production. I have never dealt with more emotional abuse at any single studio before or since Carbine. The general environment was always leads pitting people below them against each other and often flat out lying about the actions of other designers to make us blame each other for problems they had in fact created. Frankly, the day I was let go during the post-launch layoffs, I felt like I'd finally left an abusive partner.
I came on to WildStar in mid-2012 so well past all the resignations you mentioned including your own. It was understood that the game was basically rebooted (office rumor mill blamed you, of course.) We did manage to ship, barely. I'm still proud of the game and honestly, in spite of the insanity in the background the final product was solid and the design ideas you created were some of the highlights of the final product. Frankly, as a designer, the paths content was my favorite part of the game to implement. I'd blame the ultimate market failure of the game on the challenging environment for MMOs by mid-2014, where it tried to launch as a subscription-based title in a year where major established IPs had all flopped doing that, let alone a new IP with nothing but a diehard fanbase from the beta to sell it. It hung around as an F2P title for a few years, frankly longer than I expected given NCSoft had a rep for being pretty merciless to underperforming titles.
Both of the people that made your life miserable were let go during the mass layoff after launch, and my understanding is the studio got better without the most toxic people there. But also so many people fled the studio before the layoffs that they were able to delay layoffs a little longer than normal because they'd saved so much money :/
I hope that didn't kill any of your passion or love of the craft. I had the same experience at a major engineering corporation that nearly killed my passion for my field until I found a small company and fell in love again with what I studied in school. Work life balance and a healthy work environment is just as critical for success as skill and passion.
You are absolutely correct about a broken vision leading to politics and power playing. I worked at Ubisoft for 18 months and it was an absolute broken, terrifying and traumatizing experience. As someone who built IP and visions for my own indie projects, I had never experienced something so insane.
Years of direction changes, week to week. Thousands of man hours for content that was often thrown directly out. Crushed morale, bullied staff, constant turnover of directors because the creative director was not only incompetent but socially punished anyone who tried to help create a vision.
I'll never work in the AAA games industry again because it is rife with the kinds of people and scenarios you mentioned here.
This video hit so close to home.
Skull and Bones?
@@LimakPan no, but I know all about that one. It's endemic across the whole company. What I described above is happening at many of their studios. You'll notice that they are doubling down on existing IP to an almost ridiculous degree. They are incapable of making anything new.
I could write a book.
@@kurtiswiebe8192there was a leak recently which said that team working on scull&bones are now working on AC4 Black Flag remake. I don't know if it's true or not, but seems legit. I dont fell like Scull&bones will ever see the Light of Day...
Nice to see another person from Ubisoft watches these videos (and congrats on making it out alive). If it makes you feel any better (or worse, but unintentionally), that lack of direction and dismissal from the upper echelon of management permeates down to the infrastructure side as well. Quite frankly, I'm surprised any Ubi studio managed to ship anything.
And I'm half convinced most of the closing kits for 'finished' games are bunk.
@@UENShanix we have a joke amongst all us that managed to escape, that we're all connected for the rest of our lives by trauma bonding. Glad you got out, and I hope many more do.
I never comment on industry stuff, but I couldn't resist. I worked on Wildstar as a 3D artist from 2012-2017. I would say that project/studio had a lot of problems. Too many to count.
The main problems I saw there were: a culture of finger pointing, lack of cohesive vision both from the Publisher and Leadership, and little reward/ acknowledgement for staff that broke themselves to make that game work and ship.
I made some great friendships and career gains at that studio. But hearing all the points in this video was a bit triggering. And not because the emotion of it. Because it made me remember how much people sacrificed physically, mentally, and socially, to make that game launch
I don't think the leadership while I was there 100% recognized those things. I still am deconstructing the good and bad from that project and studio. And at the end of the day. The Game is Dead. The Studio is Dead. and all you can do is move onto better and brighter things. RIP Carbine, RIP Wildstar.
Much love to all who worked on it, I hope someone someday takes the good from it and uses it. Games are hard to make, getting people to creatively agree is even harder.
I’m sorry Brian. I didn’t mean to trigger bad memories for you. I was hoping a discussion of the events would help people who thought they were experiencing such things alone. There was certainly a great deal of sacrifice by many people, and many of them broke. I know I did.
I think I’ll do one more Carbine video tomorrow, and try to wrap up a few loose ends. And then I’m not going to talk about it anymore, for a good long while.
@@CainOnGames naw man, you're good. I think it just emphasizes how much passion was at that studio. And how much all game devs want to make an Awesome game, no matter how we approach it. The key to any creative project is communication and respect. wish you the best on your journey, thanks for sharing your experiences.
I don't know if this helps even the slightest bit, but some fans are working to make WildStar playable again because they appreciated what you all created. Some number of people loved what you made, and for some within that set, it was THE game that they'll never forget. It's also a reference point for cartoony sci-fantasy media, to which many former players nostalgically compare anything that looks, sounds, or feels even a little bit similar.
miss you tim, loved working with you and playing DnD with you and Tiff :) the power struggle was felt on the art team as well. it was a seriously toxic environment
Thanks. I hope things got a little better after I left, with one less person tugging on that already strained design.
And that was a fun set of D&D sessions. Tiff would try out any magic item, no waiting for a pesky Identify spell. Too bad her lycanthropy wasn’t cured, but she was my campaign’s first were-hobbit!
@@CainOnGames there were ups and downs afterward. . The power struggle was still real and we couldn't really speak up on the art team. At least for world art.
"And I proceeded to talk, for four hours."
Never will I have the satisfaction of going into a difficult meeting with that big a crate of ammunition. 🤣
Biggest takeaway from this story: start taking notes, right now! 😅
Although is that the best way to accomplish something? I've several times thrown tons of facts at people to show them something and generally that didn't do much to change their mind or convince them. Maybe they'd forget about the start. Maybe something they would have liked to habe an explanation for but couldn't speak? I don't know how to manage such situations. But if indeed you have 4 hours worth of explaining when people stepped on your toes and things don't change, leaving certainly looks like the best choice left.
@@LDiCesare yep sometimes explanations are pointless
It’s always good to have a clear record of events. We might not always succeed in navigating a difficult situation in the moment but we will spend our entire lives reflecting on and learning from our experiences. The clearer the record the better the lesson, the better prepared in immediate and future endeavors.
@@LDiCesare I think this is a really good question to reflect on, because it seems like it did nothing. But it sounds like Tim was the best prepared you possibly could be, in order to try this approach, so he didn't do anything wrong. He was dealing with what sounded like an emotional black box of a person, and mgmt were horribly negligent.
I am having trouble making it through this vid without a ton of sad nostalgia about Wildstar. The action gameplay. The look, the sound, the delivery, the scope and OH. Oh the housing. It's crazy to know Tim was there too, and that it had such a harsh business culture. I suppose it explains the awful un-launch. I never finished the cruise ship, alas, nobody was logging in to see it. The plots (and The Plot) in Wildstar, I'll miss forever. I had a remarkable and unforgettable experience.
It's sad to hear that such a frustrating experience deterred you from wanting to be a lead again for so long, but I'm grateful you were able to fill those cracks and maintain your resolve. I hope your insights provide a better future for the game industry
the studio head would’ve been Jeremy Gaffney and the art director was Matt Mocarski.
I was the Publicity lead on Wildstar at Carbine, this has been very interesting to watch, thanks for posting.
Did you host the weekly (I remember them being weekly) videos answering community q&a with developer guests? I remember that fondly.
@@qpid8110 I think I was on one episode or two, but that was run through the Community Relations team.
I like Tim's insistence of ethical reciprocity. "You didn't credit me!"/"Well, when did you credit me?" "You didn't listen to my ideas!"/"Do you listen to mine?" "This your problem, fix it."/"I fixed it, now it's your problem." Not mudslinging, just pointing out the "Rules for thee but not for me" and "Do as I say, not as I do" that goes on in upper management. Love these stories. Talk about Tyranny please!
This is how you detect social games and double standards. However I can tell you, the corporate setting only knows "how high" as an response when they tell you to jump. Sooner or later they get you. Unfortunately I made the experience in software engineering, never been in the game industry. But just don't want to know how it is with less prestigious (and more necessary jobs).
the studio head would’ve been Jeremy Gaffney and the art director was Matt Mocarski.
I try to follow that example. Nice to see that Tim and others do as well. I can't tell you the number of developer meetings I've been in where managers are looking around for fingers to point at and I always stick to the team as united front. if there is a failing talk to me. Then focus them on solutions instead of wasting half the meeting for incriminations and scouldings. I remember being in a meeting with a team from India that through unclear instructions or a problem taking longer to solve we were missing a delivery date. They were expecting the finger pointing and heat to fall on them. they looked absolutely shocked when i took the blame. explained out why the date was being missed and what we had to do to solve it and a new date. the India team was excited i went to back for them. managers were happy they had an explanation to take up the chain and we got back to work. we hit the new date and everyone was happy.
Mud never helps. demoralizes anyone you work with, and places a feeling of stress over everything that slows people down because no one wants to be hit by it. Yeah I will feel the heat when things go wrong but I also feel the glow when everything goes right.
Focus on solutions and you never go wrong.
I was in a similar situation once, and also came armed with months of voice recordings and emails to back me up. It got awkward when they didn't realize I had evidence, and even more awkward when I realized they had already made a decision and all the evidence in the world wasn't going to change it.
It's sad that a single obstinate person ruined what could have been an incredible experience. I never got to play WildStar; it's one of my few gaming regrets.
I also never got to play wildstar even though i do remember watching toweliee play a bunch. At the time in 2014 I only have a macbook for school and was in highschool with no money for a PC. I do wish they had found success because now that i have a PC i would have enjoyed the chance to give it a go. I do like the art style even though the director sounds like a complete ass. It wasn't him who probably did most of the work.
WildStar was one of my favorite games, and I genuinely loved both the art direction and the design in it. Hearing this makes me so sad for the game WildStar COULD have been if this was not going on in the background (probably even more of a cult classic, similar to all of your other projects). Thank you for sharing! It's really interesting having a peek behind the curtain, and seeing what went wrong.
I think if I was on a project for 3 years, and my designers did not ship anything, I'd blow a lid. Your grace during this period is honestly mind blowing. Similarly, if I had a combatative parallel director, I would not be able to keep my cool in every meeting I was in with them. The studio head really should have resolved this situation much sooner, and to be honest, in that situation I think as a studio head you keep a designer with insane programming chops, as that is a very rare combination of abilities. But it's definitely a tough situation all around that didn't need to happen.
The saddest part is the team sounds like it was VERY talented, and this was a clear lack of directionality/clarity on who is leading the project and where the project is going. (Which is why, as a rule of thumb, this blame should travel up to the studio head, as vision/direction is the most important responsibility of a leader. And I can see the temptation of "seeing multiple visions and deciding then", but I think in this case because of negative environment it generated, a studio head needed to snap out of that mode.)
I think the thing to take away from this is that Wildstart could have NOT been anything different, due to how the project was handled. Money + talent will never produce a good game without vision and a unified lead behind it. Ironically a game with money and talent will make this tug-of-war phenomenon worse, because everyone quickly becomes aware there is a lot of potential and therefore a lot of potential personal gain, in reputation, pay and career terms, to gain. That pushes everyone to aggressively promote their views and vision, even when it is flawed or incomplete, even fighting about it. That's my theory, at least.
While I appreciate Wildstar, I think it could never have worked for the simple reason that MMOs need a large playerbase (both to make enough money and to make the world feel alive). However Wildstar only appealed to the 5-10% of the MMO playerbase, namely the hardcore MMO players.
I'm a casual MMO player and I didn't like Wildstar when I played it, but I do like FF14.
@@lightworker2956 You say that, but the art style didn't really communicate 'hard core', so a lot of people who might have liked to play a hard core MMO took no notice of WildStar because of that visual-based first impression. At least that's the impression I got from talking to a lot of my classmates about the game while I was studying game design. WildStar, to me, was always hidden gem with a deep-seated identity crisis. I loved it, and have a lot of dear memories of it, but it was always a bit of a mess with a loose grasp on what audience it was targeting. Learning that the behind-the-scenes situation was this messy, well. It grieves me, but it does not surprise me one bit.
I wish it had been a single-player RPG
That art director guy sounds like the living embodiment of the ‘I don’t want peace, I want problems always’ meme .
I looked them up. They've not been credited on anything since WildStar but they do still work in the game industry..
@@cmdr.jabozerstorer3968"success has many parents but failure is an orphan."
Fucking love this quote.
@@cmdr.jabozerstorer3968 I looked them up too. Loooot of stints of barely a year and shorter. I can only assume he kept up that behavior that he'd gotten away with at Carbine without realizing he'd only gotten away with it there because the studio head was protecting him. Nobody else will put up with that.
@@Rebochan Also looked them up, if it was the same guy someone commented on here, I must say that working on mobile games is poetic justice lmao
Carbine was where I got my start in design. I joined near the end of your time there (chocolate club). I loved working on that game, but I also learned so many harsh lessons. Carbine taught me to get everything in writing.
😭 I had no idea that Wildstar was such a trial for you. Wildstar is my favorite MMO and I was so looking forward to hearing about your time working on it.
The player housing was the best in any game that I've played. I remember a player made a skate park in their house. I made an archeological museum in my house. The music is some of my favorite, the art is beautiful. So much about that game I love. I especially wanted to thank you for originating the path system. I LOVED the explorer path. I have a digital album of screenshots I took as I completed the path.
So much about Wildstar I look back on with the fondest memories. Thank you for all the work you did and for sharing this painful experience. Thank you.
Proper bellend there, massive shame that it killed your passion for a while to be at that level. It's a big shame to hear that there are people in those positions...
I'd also like to ask, any chance you could do a video discussing just your process & systems for taking notes? It's a useful skill that a lot of people lack and it's really interesting to hear how people who do, go about it.
Loved Wildstar and was immensely bummed out to see it go. I hope a worthy predecessor comes soon
this gives me a ton of perspective being a new Level Design/Artist hybrid Lead that just started around when you departed. I was hopefully a good memory, because I remember busting into your office inspired one morning and giving you my dungeon design pitch. When you left, however, I couldnt get the momentum needed to get the interdisciplinary clout we needed to bring a real memorable experience to the dungeons and I departed to work on Bioshock Infinite. Wishing you the best.
Thanks Steve. It would have been great to make those dungeons, but I was almost certainly in a bad headspace when you got hired. I’m glad you went on to do great things.
My previous employer broke me. I left that job in early 2013 and I'm still broken... still trying to recover a decade later to become employable again. 😔
You have my sympathies, Tim. ☹️
Being undervalued and cut out of the loop is truly one of the most devastating and demoralizing feelings. Our industry has so many big personalities and it makes is so hard to exist sometimes. I'm struggling with that a lot these days, it's hopeful to hear how you navigated difficult situations and came through the other side of them to continue to do great work after all that. Thanks for your video.
Just found this. I'm in the industry and just wanted to say thanks for sharing this for everyone to hear. I think transparency and honest dialogue is healthy for everyone involved, and will hopefully help us all get better as an industry.
Tim this video gave me the courage I needed to make a change at work I needed to make for a long time. I stepped down from a higher up position because the pay just wasn’t matching the tasks and I feel a lot better and I also have more time in my life to get to live. Thank you Tim.
Your particular departure, I omitted many details and rumors from lack of knowing. After watching this, I had no clue the AD was so notorious and known for all of that. On top of the issues of leadership. I heard from a prior developer, issues from both you and the AD however regarding direction and creating problems.
Would have loved to hear more about why the systems (whether they shipped or not) you thought would have worked long term, and so on so forth. And your thoughts on what ultimately did ship!
Thanks for the insight from a longtime supporter.
Whoa NerdSlayer! Quality content my dude!
Tim of the many shirts.
So sorry to hear you had to go through all that. Wildstar is pretty much the best MMO I've ever played and I'll never forget all the fun I had or the good friends I made on the forum (shoutout to the morning coffee club threaders-miss & love you all). That said there were a lot of issues and drama from both the community and some of the devs who'd interact with us. I remember one thread in particular where I was asking if the size of the games text could be increased as it was too small for me to read and there was no way to adjust it. Some dev I can't remember the name of spent three or four pages arguing with me about how the size of the text was a deliberate design choice and that not only was I disrespecting it I was asking them to do a bunch of work that was impossible as it would force them to change too much of the game engines design. Shit like that made it really difficult to want to play anymore or offer feedback.
Still...thank you for the good memories. It just broke my heart to hear how much it broke you. You seem like a really good guy and I would love to buy you and your hubby a beer or coffee sometime and just hang out and tell you about all the amazing friendships you've helped bring into my life because of your games. I really do appreciate all the hard work and hope that whatever you're working on or end up working on next is a rewarding experience rather than a bad one. Love you, Tim. You rock.
I left Notion and have been setting up Obsidian as my new note-taking app recently, so I have control over my own data. The emphasis you're putting in these videos on the value of keeping careful notes is really encouraging me on that front.
Obsidian is god tier. I loved using notion but i didnt like its pricing and while i still think its an amazing app for someone who is a beginner at taking regular notes, it doesnt feel very advanced. Cuz in notion it feels like its a note taking app, but obsidian feels like its a playground, and you fill it up with your thoughts, connect things from place to place, it actually feels very advanced.
Looks like the notes didn't help him in the end. Also if someone talked for 4 hours about someone in minutiae detail I'd think they're insane.
@@smiechu47He didn't "talk about someone," he talked about things that were going wrong on a complicated technical project they both were working on. I realize it's hard to imagine a complicated problem like that happening between your coworkers at the local McDonald's.
Tim, this was great. Thank you for sharing. I had no idea how close we were to being cancelled and I'm grateful you kept us going.
For watcher's timeline clarification: by 2008 NC soft has published Guild Wars (Prophecies, Factions, Nightfall, Eye of The North) and Tabula Rasa (tabula rasa would close soon after).
ArenaNet was like Carbine Studios founded by former Blizzard people, and like Carbine studios they have none of them left. Guild Wars Factions (or simple Guild Wars as it was originally named) was published in 2005, and Tbula Rasa was published in 2007.
I loved Tabula Rasa as a kid growing up. All the stuff going on with Richard Garriot must have been crazy with him going to space around the time of development if I am correct.
Thank you for sharing your story, and thank you for helping create one of the best MMO experiences I've ever had in nearly 25 years of online gaming. Having been in the beta, it was obvious that the game was not ready for release and some of the stories that came out over the years really highlight just how troubled the development cycle was. I still really enjoyed the game for the time that it lived though. The Spellslinger was such an amazing, unique class design that really played into the game's fundamental combat mechanics and I'm not surprised it ended up being one of the most popular.
It's a shame that it just didn't work out. I don't know that there will ever be another WildStar.
I was there in the last hour of Wildstar... Fond memories. Best MMO I ever played. The login music alone makes me tear up.
Treachery, backstabbing, jealousy will whittle you down, especially when nothing ever changes and it's coming from an entire essentially brainwashed department. Crazy story. Thank you for sharing!
I had no idea you worked on Wildstar. Thank you for sharing your insights about the development of Wildstar and am sorry for the bad times you had to go trough.
I can say Spellslinger was one of my favorite classes along with Engineer and Stalker :) Am happy you did listen to that artist. The teleport with the mouse swing to attack was really fun. Also the most fun class to heal as with the short burst shotgun blast heals. I really did enjoy a lot of the things Wildstar set out to do including the explorer path.
Reminiscing about Wildstar is bittersweet for me. It was the last MMO I was truly excited to play. I was a young adult when it came out and I really went all in. Literally treating it like a 2nd job. We ran a guild and rode all the highs and lows together during its initial release. We had a great time.
But near the end I was close to a mental breakdown and was about to lose some friends if I didn't stop myself. I and other dedicated people in my guild probably put in 5 hours a day helping other players get attuned so we could get started with raiding. We were a levelling guild trying to transition to do hardcore raiding content. The core people were all brilliant and we were an well oiled efficient dungeon killing machine. But we kept losing players faster then we could attune them and recruiting new players become harder. We merged with other guilds just to stay alive. We went trough that 3 times in a period of a few months. Yet the problem did not stop. We formed alliances with other big guilds. Despite that we still had problems getting enough players to regularly do raids. Every guild I talked with was experiencing the same problem. We did manage to do some raiding and I even got the pleasure to lead a few raids. But in the end the stress of keeping everything together was just too much and I stopped playing.
I feel if the circumstances were just slightly different. Wildstar easily could have been as big as WoW today. Everyone I talk with who actually played it did love the game. That game had so much potential and its so frustrating how it didn't get the opportunity to fully live up to it.
This game will forever hold a special place in my heart. Thanks for giving us a glimpse of what happened behind the scenes.
Brother I have loved listening to all your videos. Wildstar holds a special place in my heart. I always loved the visuals, animation, and gameplay. I hate that it crashed and burned, but this is wonderful insight as to why.
I'm sorry that happened to you. I also worked a job for a handful of years that "broke" me. Still recovering from that and looking for my spark.
Please know that every aspect that you just described about wildstar was wildly loved. What they gutted and ran with was a shell of clearly passionate ideas.
Thank you for delving into the doldrums about your time at Carbine. I feel a bit sorry now for asking about what it was like for you there on a previous video. In my head I suppose I was hoping that things were going great for you at Carbine until you eventually got offered some better opportunity elsewhere, but I guess that was wishful thinking! Perhaps I selfishly got so curious about what it was like for you making your MMO while I was also making my first (only) MMO, Guild Wars 2 at NCSoft's other studio ArenaNet. I doubt things were perfect interpersonally at ArenaNet, but I always had the impression that people didn't butt heads there so much. Aside from it being a sequel they were working on, not an original IP, and the pay being notoriously low, it's possible things might've been a lot more positive for you if you'd been there instead of at Carbine.
Wow Guild Wars 2 was great, tho.
I was press at GDC 2011. I met someone from Wildstar's booth who was so enthusiastic about the game that it was palpable. We also saw a presentation on the game that had the whole place buzzing. We were so excited about the approach to quest text (140 characters or less at a time - back when Twitter was limited to 140 characters). A few friends of mine got to play and said it was everything they hoped for and more. I'm sorry I never had time to play. I'm sorry so many people who worked so hard didn't see their efforts flourish and persist.
LOL, why would you be "so excited" about people having shortened attention spans and an inability to read? Sick.
@Margatroid don't poop yourself with righteous indignation. Some of us prefer combat over quest text, it's not that deep.
I played Wildstar from launch to close and as much as a I could in the player run private servers. To learn how much of the game had to be rushed out is kind of shocking but looking back at the lore files I was able to save, it kind of makes sense. Still, somehow you guys managed to make something that resonated with me and a lot of people in a really powerful way. There was so much that was truly astonishing to see come together and so much more I wanted to see from that setting. I still miss it, warts and all.
the studio head would’ve been Jeremy Gaffney and the art director was Matt Mocarski.
Thanks for your service sir. Wildstar is still one of my fondest memories and I miss it a lot. The game would still rock the mmo world today if they'd re-release it.
Some are working to bring back the game on private servers
Kintsugi is the Japanese word! An apt philosophy to apply in that situation. Speaking of Japan, if you ever do a Q&A can you describe jRPGs that you enjoyed or influenced your game design? Any thoughts on the Soulsborne games? Thanks Tim!
i think it was probably actually wabisabi, even though the specific thing with the gold is called kintsugi.
@@dextrodemon I think its wasabi
Yes, apply wasabi to the crack.
I remember one of the odder claims I've seen on the internet was someone claiming to be an ex-Carbine employee saying your contract gave you IP rights to your work while at the company. Wildstar's many problems were then supposedly because the setting and much of the design had to be redone in a rush after you left to avoid copyright issues. That sort of contract never seemed like it would square with how gamedev works; I take it that was an equally spurious rumour that somehow got amplified?
I never owned the rights to my work there, and lots of my design was in the shipping game, along with a lot of new (and really good) stuff that was made after I left.
Like the "Troika won't make a patch unless they are paid to do so" rumor, this is probably a mis-telling of something else that is true...although I don't know what that would be. Maybe someone just expressed an interest in getting rid of some of my designs?
Yeah, that makes sense. Never did hear of a contract where a department lead (or anyone) retains full personal rights to the very work they were hired to do, so I figured that was either a rumour or an outright lie. I was always curious what happened: you could tell there was a lot of passion poured into Wildstar when playing it, yet it also had a lot of design that clearly wasn't done cooking and the personnel changes before launch sure indicated that something was troubled about the process.
It seems like the sort of rumour that can start when people are asked to completely redo reasonable previous work and aren't told why. "Why are we redesigning this thing from scratch all of a sudden? Must be some corporate shenanigans related to the lead designer leaving" goes to "I heard Tim Cain specifically worded his contract to sabotage the game" three steps down the chain.
Much of the game was redone, cause it took 9 years to release and the telegraph system was implemented very late in the process.
Hi again, Tim. I asked if we could talk, but I didn’t hear back from you. There’s no reason to get into all the gory details, so I’ll be brief.
As you may recall, I worked on the team of designers that was let go. I’ve spoken to some of the other guys and we’re not thrilled with how you characterize our dismissal. I’m surprised you’re not more empathetic given how we experienced the same shenanigans you did from the same people. To imply we were either incompetent or lazy is unfair. There was a fully fleshed-out world and there were character classes. All of these items were extensively documented on the company wiki. Much of what we did had accompanying concept art which, of course, couldn’t have happened in a vacuum.
I don’t see the point of arguing with you over credit, but much of what my coworkers and I did is peeking out through the cracks in the finished product. Hell, I can point to things I designed and named that survived more or less intact. Like you, I have notes and documents that show what I did. Anyone looking at those notes and the game that shipped would acknowledge the ties in the DNA.
Ultimately, my coworkers and I were credited in the final product-which surprised all of us. Being a cynic, I chalked it up to legal ass-covering. It certainly wasn’t because the higher-ups had any sudden pangs of conscience.
Anyway, like you, Carbine broke me, and I felt this rather public record of my work habits was unfair. But the last thing I want is a flame war. I enjoyed most of your video and experienced heavy deja vu.
Take care.
An absolute jewel, this video. Thank you for sharing, for offering this glimpse behind the scenes.
The kintsugi analogy was a nice way of putting it. :)
Thanks for sharing this story! I really loved Wildstar despite its rough edges. It was such a unique MMO with lots of great ideas (like the Paths you mentioned!) and some fantastic boss designs and encounters. It's sad to hear you had such a rough time while working at Carbine. I had heard some rumours before from anonymous accounts who claimed to have worked at Carbine and who complained about competition and fights between different teams, but you can never know how truthful any of that is. So it's good to hear your side of the story instead of some anonymous accounts.
I'm really glad you eventually overcame your "trauma" and took up a lead position again at Obsidian because The Outer Worlds is an awesome game and it would have been a real shame to have lost out on your creativity and expertise because of what happened at Carbine.
I think he was doing the “I suck at my job so I’ll set the whole project on fire so nobody can pinpoint the problems on me.” plan.
That's a thing?
@@LicoriceLain yup happens very often people sabotage projects because they don't want to take responsibility for their actions or faults real shame as it causes many good ideas to be lost due to ego
Thank you for sharing your stories and insight from working in the game industry. I think a lot of these lessons would be great to hear at a panel!
Thank you for sharing this story! I've also experienced some pretty toxic work environments/coworkers so I understand how hard it is to look back on that time.
Thanks for telling about your time at Carbine. Was once told the number one reason people go down with stress is when decisions are out of their hands and they are ignored for no apparent reason. Combine that with what sounds like a impossible person to work with and its a recipe for disaster.
While it may not have been stress in your case, I'm glad you got out. It the only option when the studio director doesn't intervene, staying would only have made it worse.
Thank you for sharing mate, WildStar has a special place in my heart and so it's good to hear I guess the 'why' of it falling apart, but geez that would have SUCKED to go through mate, glad to see you on the other side :)
wildstar is still a deeply important game to me. i always think fondly of the class choices even if i played a humie warrior. still has some of my favorite bosses i've ever fought in a game. some of my favorite memories playing with people come from my time with it. thank you and every other carbine employee who has spoken about their time working on the game. i always thought, despite the issues, it was a sincerely beautiful game.
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, this was a great listen for someone who spent about five years on WildStar starting in 2012. I had heard the stories, but super interesting to hear your experience firsthand!
Sorry you had to endure that Tim. My first professional gig was in a perpetual tug-of-war situation, and I thought it was normal for years. Really threw me for a loop when I didn't have to anticipate what another higher up was going to change the next day. Thanks for sharing.
What absolutely floors me is how they would take all that from an art director when they are really easy to find. There are so many people with artistic vision out there, a degree in it and no job. Not to mention the legions of animators ready to make the next step up now that movies and games require 20x more animators than any other position due to graphical fidelity being a false hope for AAA studios.
You did the video on why you left Wildstar! Thank you for sharing!
To be honest, the majority of stuff I remember fondly about Wildstar were the classes and character paths.
Unfortunate to hear about all the issues behind the scenes.
Thank you for sharing. Wildstar was such a special experience and I wish it had the opportunity to thrive
That sounds rough, I'm glad you've recovered at least a bit from it and I'm glad we get to watch and listen to your thoughts in this format on youtube! :D
I miss Wildstar. Can you talk more about network architecture?
I remember Wildstar! I had no idea you were involved! It was one of the few MMOs during the boom that looked like it had any potential, despite my personal antipathy for the genre at the time. The player housing angle was a brilliant idea, with customization and 'owning' anything in the mmo space a big bugbear of mine and many who'd been weened on WoW. The exploration path was also a lovely concept which offered something unique. I wish I hadn't been so burned out by them at the time and had the bandwidth to give this one a try.
You can certainly be proud of a valiant effort to refresh a fading fad in social game design and I don't doubt your ideas have been incorporated into games since.
You heard it here folks, Tim's got gold in his crack 😂 Thanks for sharing man, it sounds like something that's left quite the mark.
Really enjoyed this video. You have been on my mind recently as I watch the Fallout show. Great Carbine recap, I knew the cast of characters, but didn't know about a lot of what you talked about.
The Paths system was an incredible concept. I remember it being taken and studied alongside Bartle's model straight away, and it was like an "aha!" moment in trying to teach what strong design pillars were. I had no idea it was you, but everyone was talking about it, at least for where I was at the time.
But, I can see why the whole experience hurt you quite a bit. If I correlate it with the other online claims, it seems like you were lumped in with the other leads when it came to assumptions and rumours about your personality and decision making. It's like the worst parts of high school.
To be clear, I explained the Bartle model to some of my designers and the need for us to have some class-orthogonal feature based on it, and they created the four paths. I don’t take credit for the work, only the direction.
I think you are a terrific humain being and, also a terrific developer and game designer. Will always love your games. Have a great day Tim!
Hey Tim. I am loving your videos and they are a blessing for a young creator like myself. I am curious on what exactly happened that allowed you to step up and direct The Outer Worlds? You mention that “something” happened and healed you over time… but I am genuinely curious if you could tell that story on how you overcome the demoralization that you went through.
Thanks for the great video and I hope you are doing well.
- Noah
This was a much anticipated story, given how little you've said of your time at Carbine, and it's a hell of a story. I'm sorry it didn't work out and caused undue stress. It seems to me the studio head should've done a better job in ending this feud you were pulled into, ideally sooner rather than later, to weed out the vitriol before it grew out of control. He had the chance and he blew it. At least you got a ton of experience and good pay out of the ordeal, and luckily the game did ship, so don't feel too bad about it. I understand, given your history with this game, that it's not the most joyous of topics to discuss, but in case you did spend any time playing the game after release, it would be dope to hear your commentary on the final product and why the game ultimately didn't succeed, because it was very promising.
This is amazing that I came across this video.
I been feeling nostalgic with Wildstar and like many other players, was upset and confused why it was shutdown. There were lots of MMOs that were in similar boats like Wildstar, FFXIV had a terrible launch and was re-released. SWTOR bled players like wildstar did but improved over time and is now the best solo MMO experience you can get.
Until I watched this, I had always put blame on NCSoft for the shutdown and thought them as a souless corp with no value. But over the years, seeing how they handle Guild Wars 2 and Lineage communities, I started thinking that maybe it wasn't only them.
Thanks for pulling back the curtain for us Tim. I loved every game you worked on from a Bard's Tale to the Outer Worlds. You are a treasure and I salute everything you done. Thank you sir!
I'm 20 years old and for about a year (between my 18th and 19th birthday) I was the writing lead on a mod project for Fallout 4. I know in hindsight that I was and still am a bad fit for a management role, but I spent that entire year (and even the year before it when I wasn't the writing lead) fighting with the project lead over literally anything I handed him. I no doubt contributed to the conflict, so I'm not blameless. But a big problem was that he couldn't give me a straight, consistent answer about what he wanted. If I wrote a quest to be detailed and branching, he told me we didn't have the time to handle it. If I wrote a quest to be more about spectacle, he told me that the engine couldn't handle it. If I handed him a fetch quest with one objective that takes five minutes, he would say that I was lazy - then turn around and suggest a fetch quest that takes five minutes, or suggest a big spectacle moment not unlike my own. He didn't want to write the mod, but he wasn't willing to let anyone else write it for him.
Wildstar was the game that won me over to MMO. No other MMO after it ever came close to the adventure, the fun, the community (except City of Heroes), the characters, the classed, the story, and the draw that Wildstar had over me. Even to this day, I keep screen shots and the old character codes in hope, one day, a studio picks it up and brings it back to its glory days.
I had, in the last year, sent twitter and e-mail requests to Don Bluth Studios to buy the IP, make it part of their artistic training schedule, and include programming and cartoon work into their program. The demo artist drawing always reminded me of Don Bluth style and to see the Chua with even more amazing fluid movement that only that studio could bring, would have made it a dream come true.
Much like the issues with Star Trek: Axanar it seems Carbine killed itself from the inside out. I know how it is to put your heart and soul into a project, only for your fellow workers to be the cause for you to switch gears and leave. I also know there is a private undertaking of creators doing their best to create private Wildstar servers, but I have a fear. Many artists, some I got to know, are for the most part, caustic. I mean frightfully, and completely caustic. They draw people in who agree with their goals and life message, and absolute deny, despise, hate, and kill with silence, anyone who is remotely outside their circle. There are still some who are in that new Wildstar community who I fear will, if given time, create some twisted monster of what Wildstar once was. It's worse than if the game just stopped and ended.
Your account gives me some layer of closure, but listening to the music Kurt had developed and created, seeing his energy and jovial nature he put into it and the overall fantastic memories of Wildstar, still make me wish, it could come back. (Pre matrix days)
I want to look through some of your videos because just from viewing this, you strike me as a person who says what he means and sticks to their guns without a price tag hung over their heads. I respect that more than anything.
Hope you had a Merry Christmas and I wish you a safe and happy New year!
Thanks for sharing your experiences and perspective.
There's so much more to years of development than the technical experience (and imo more so in design). Unless someone is designing a system specifically (to be used and maintained by) themselves, collaboration is going to be requirement for progress, let alone success. The creation, support and maintenance of collaborations requires their own skills which I've seen increasingly disregarded over the years, only to be replaced with mantra of "gotta go faster".
Sorry you had to deal with all that, Tim. If it's any consolation, Wild Star's overarching design was super fascinating to me (Path system was such a fantastic idea), even if the game flopped, your ideas were appreciated and heard.
This is so sad to hear, I was super excited for WildStar upon release, and was sad to see events unfold.
This just depresses me more to hear there was turmoil even during development.
Thank you very much for that insight, and thank you for the work on the game I enjoyed. I heard similiar things from some other people that worked on WildStar, it's sad that this happened but at least videos like yours will help people to be aware of those kind of issues.
The things I liked best about Wildstar seemed to be the things you had the biggest hand in - which is exactly what I'd expect.
Loved the video and the confirmation that even high-end game studio designers working on a high profile game can boil down important decisions to ego balancing of stubborn vs exasperation. Hope all is well with you in recent times
Hearing you describe your healing as similar to kintsugi (the practice of repairing pottery with was something I deeply resonated with. I've dealt with people like that in the music industry and it made me nearly abandon orchestral composition. It's actually why I'm getting back into video games and I'm finally learning Godot to make my first game after the advice you gave in your video on how you got into the industry.
As a huge Wildstar fan, any notes about lore and direction changes pique my interest. I always wished they'd release a ttrpg or something.
I really loved Wildstar. Wish it would of been able to stick around.
Tim, I would like to say a HUGE thank you for contributing so much in making this awesome game! I spent many hrs playing with my spellslinger healer and loved every single moment! I am so sad that NCSoft had the game shut down, it deserved so much! Housing was top notch, aside with ArcheAge's open housing system!
I would love to see it getting a resurrection in the future, I will truly play it the first minute!
Who thought that note taking is an OP skill when it comes to a 40yrs game industry experience. But honestly, this video is humbling and very inspiring. I'm impressed how classy you sailed through all these situations. Best wishes!
WildStar was one of my favorite games. The class design was fantastic. The paths were a fun break. The loadout mechanics were amazing. The setting, the story, the races, the lore, I loved it. .. I also liked most of the art.
Thank you for the work you did on it while you were there. I'm glad we got to enjoy it for a while - the same goes out to the rest of the ex-carbine people here. It was obviously a non-stop trainwreck, but what came out was still a work of art.
Thank you for sharing your experience with it, sorry that it was such a hard one.
The story of wildstar is such a tragedy. The game was so well made and had so much character and promise. I remember firmly believing it would be the WoW killer. Unfortunately I also remember being with my guild on the final day before they took the servers offline. I desperately hope the project gets revisited some day. I miss Nexus :[
I can only presume you're happy in your retirement Mr. Cain 😅
Fascinating as ever, thank you for sharing your stories!
What a bummer to hear about regarding artists and art director. Wildstar is one of my key art inspirations. Truly a treasure and a visual feast.
i was more into wildstar than fallout because i am a huge mmorpg nerd and fan.. but i recently got into the fallout games like really badly and this is so cool to find out :D
Hey Tim, love your videos. They give so much valuable insight into a CAREER in games. There are too few game industry vets telling their stories and sharing their lessons as you do. Thanks!
Something that I don't fully understand. In your career you have been a programmer/programming lead. Do you consider yourself a highly technical person or just a capable leader who happened to be a programmer at one point? How did you manage to hop between programming and design so well during your career? I'm a 10 year game programming veteran thinking about changing hats so any perspective on this side of your time in games would be really valuable to someone like me. Thanks again!
Thanks for sharing this, Tim. Wildstar had so much potential, and it's a shame it could never grow into what might have been.
So interesting listening to these. I hope it inspires other developers to share their stories.
I had no idea Tim was even involved! I played it at release and never knew
Great story. Would you mind an unrelated question? I just saw that Black Isle's Torn was supposed to use SPECIAL, which is the first time I'm hearing about it. Were you consulted on this? Would you be interested in recording a video on the subject or do you prefer not to "gossip" about games you didn't work on personally?
Its very frustrating to have random people hating you because some other person said mean things about you behind your back.
Not a game designer but a player, yet I love hearing artists talk about their BTS craft, the good and the bad of it, whether it's musicians, writers, filmmakers, gamedevs, or... artists (sorry, but English uses "artist" in two different meanings). It's interesting, this story of the conflict between the lead art designer and the design director, and the lack of singular vision, because I think one of the coolest thing about the final version of Wildstar was that tension between the whimsical Pixaresque art and the serious worldbuilding full of mystery.
It's a shame that this game disappeared from the face of the Earth, apart from so far barely working attempts at private servers (so I hear), and I think it would have been better off as a single player experience, rather than an MMO because it were the MMO aspects that were the most criticised (server issues, faction balance, raid sizes... except housing, which was a great success) and in MMOs the stuff like worldbuilding, terrific sound design and voice acting, etc. all tend to get overlooked by a large chunk of the audience. And it wouldn't require players to keep playing it to exist, they could finish it and move on (which is kinda what happened) and it would have been ok. It would have still been available to play, then, just like I'm playing 2017's Prey for the first time right now.
This video makes me wanna start note taking / journaling more than any other video I've seen
LMAO going into that meeting must have felt like unsheathing excalibur.
I was today years old when I learned that you were responsible for a lot of the design of WildStar I loved: Player housing, paths, the classes. There was such a well thought out system there thank you. I also see (at least a part of) why it failed with all the internal drama during dev.
Great talk. I’ve been CD in companies with that kind of art director. Every day is painful.
I would love to see Tim's take on really hard game both mechanically and complexity wise
Small Correction: NCSOFT has put their own stuff out here.
They put Blade and Soul, which is TeamBloodlust, NCSOFT's inhouse dev studio. They also did MXM, which was a bunch of NCSOFT properties put together for a moba smashbros like game.
WildStar was the best MMO I ever played in terms of actual gameplay. I'm very sad with all that happened. I loved the aurin, I loved Esper DPS and I loved Gamma Rays Medic, I loved so much about WildStar.
And now it's gone. And that breaks my heart.