I think it's important to not be reactionary. One shouldn't generalize on this. Take Wyrmwood, for instance. They've run KS's that overlap for years now, simply because setting up new infrastructure and adapting existing infrastructure for each new thing, which is a requirement as soon as you break into a new kind of product, even if it's in the same domain (in this case, woodworking) takes time. They're also dependent on a lot of external infrastructure to get their raw materials, which is a complication all on its own. Yet, and in spite of external factors they have no control over, they deliver. And just thinking hypothetically about the situation, there are good reasons to run overlapping kickstarters. As soon as you leave your initial niche (STL file production), you'll have very specialised people on staff. 3d artists, for instance, can't really do anything profitable in between kickstarters. I suppose a company could put them to work in order fulfillment in between projects, but A) They're more likely to not want to do that and quit, especially the really good ones you want to keep around, and B) even if they agree to help out fulfillment, they are still paid a significantly higher wage than the staff you'd hire specifically to do fulfillment. Better then, both for the specialists and the company they work for, if they get the next project off the ground. So concurrent kickstarters aren't a surefire sign of a scam. But a reason to be cautious and to do more research into the company, for sure, and perhaps to hold off on speculating thousands of your dollars on a product that isn't even finished yet.
@@themonkeyhand A pyramid scheme usually is a lot more insidious in how it works. It's common that people are encouraged or even required by the scheme to let the organisation take out loans in their names to pay for the "goods" that each new recruit is expected to sell to pay it back, while the real benefactors of the scheme skims heavily off of it. The description above also describes every company that ever went into the red. Not the best of descriptors.
@@wn8963 I guess we have different views of what constitutes a red flag. In my head, it means "Categorically stay the fuck away from it, imminent and almost assured risk of harm ahead."
Them using "we forgot paint needs bottles" is probably the funniest asspull excuse I've heard in my life. Like a nat 1 deception roll. Thanks for the coverage, hopefully this incident serves as a wakeup for everyone who treats crowdfunding like a storefront to keep their payroll spinning.
@@TheKingofAverage At least Patreon is a better way to found projects because it forces the creator to be proactive and release monthly their work. Kickstarter do not protect the backers in any way, so i will always thrust more Patreon than Kickstarter...
Honestly I don't want to be negative but ppl who I know is called Chris have always been sus. I need to know some decent Chris out there before I lose faith with people who have that name. Namely this Chris and Chris Roberts who have been dodging problems so far by selling virtual space ships, but need road maps for their roadmap
I can just imagine it. "Logistically, how will the paint reach the customers?" "Why, it'll magically flow directly from the factory onto their minis, of course."
It seems odd that the factory making the paint also wouldn't also source and supply the bottles. The bottle filling machine surely needs to match the bottle. I know, because I've tried decanting GW paints into droppers. It's hard.
As someone who own three businesses with my main being an enrolled agent (I do taxes) and book keeping for small businesses this chain of event is very common. Just because your good at what you do (or market it so you seem like it) does not mean you know how to manage money or run a business. This is why i recommend to get a professional book keeper to make sure your in the black, not the red.
Yup, we caught a lot of flack for our pricing on hard cover books, but we had to look at the ROI. Without the high price to jump start the projects we would be doing something different. Big companies like WOTC can do mass printings in china. Their costs are very limited and ROI is high. Most smaller companies are having to pay set up costs and layout costs and then materials and manufacturing. It all adds up. Too low a price may seem good to you, but it may mean this is the last product the company makes if they even ever delivery anything. Oh yeah, you need an in house pro book keeper, or you need to hire one. Knowing how to make something cool will only get you so far.
Anyone who is stupid enough to give money to a unknown company promising you stuff ,are retarded.The guy just took your money and had a blast with it and you are left out of pocket 😅
My mother is a book keeper and my dad started a business in 1979 that still profits to this day, BECAUSE fiscal responsibility is the difference between a viable business and guys like Chris.
An important thing people miss about Reaper: They were founded and are run by accountants. It was originally a side-gig so they could understand how to run a business to better serve their clients, and it eventually became so profitable that they could keep at it. But they always keep an eye on balancing the ledgers. They plan out all of their Kickstarters and make sure that they can actually deliver with the amount of money they're asking for.
As an accountant I'm gonna be honest, don't use "run by accountants" as a positive, the company is just run well by people who know how to run a business well. Accounting has very little to do with *most* of running a business.
Sure, but in this specific case the issue is not running the numbers on how much you're bringing in vs. how much you're spending, which is the part of the business I would hope accountants would be best at.@@ppppppqqqppp
Dark sword miniatures also is run by a former bank guy. I don't know what Jim Ludwig did exactly but he worked for Wells Fargo in some sort of senior vp type position. Having business acumen matters a lot
I backed Rivenstone because several of my former co-workers from Privateer Press had started working there and I wanted to support them. All excellent and talented people with a dedication to bringing great games to life, what an absolute disapointment.
@@Spaniard727 Why? They are just random people who make videos you like to watch and really really like to make money on ads. Why would you give their opinion anymore value than a cashier at your local grocery store? You don't know them. They are not your friend. Stop listening to shills and you'll improve the quality of your life.
@@MiniatureMasterClassI value both if they've built up a positive reputation with helpful advice. If you don't value any opinions why are you watching UA-cam and commenting on videos?
@@unknown70000 To be contrarian, clearly. It's just trolling with a slightly different coat of paint - The aim is to draw attention by creating controversy. Pay it no heed.
@@MiniatureMasterClass Calling them shills is downright slander. Many of the big ones are not shills. They will give honest feedback. They may pick and choose what products to review, so as to push what they view as superior to the forefront, but that's not shilling. Shilling is being dishonestly positive vis a vis a product. As for why they should be made aware, it's fairly obvious. Because they have peoples' trust, and most work quite hard to maintain that. If an old endorsement is left on youtube, and leads people to a company that is dysfunctional and just as likely to run away with your money as they are to deliver the products, it's in the content creator's interest to take the video down, maybe even make an update on the developing situation, and so on.
I was a Patron of their STL miniature subscription for a while and it was no surprise when that segment went under. They were trying to put out way too many models per month. They had cool models and ideas but lacked leadership to reign in the scope creep that killed their profitability.
Did you actually end up with the STL files? I've been trying to track down some especially the mouse ones, but haven't had luck since this whole thing with them following through...
@@Rawkr57 Yes, I got all the STL files that they released on Patreon added to my MyMiniFactory account. Not all their physical models are available in STL though. I don't think they released any Mousefolk in STL.
My pleasure. Not that I enjoy this type of video, as you can tell I'm not happy about it - but happy to help bring awareness and understanding so we can all be smarter consumers and hopefully see this sort of thing in the future before it gets bad.
I backed the paint, so does this mean I will be scammed again? I backed Cryptic Cabin's brush set. Still waiting, they are blaming the mail system in the UK. I just want the brushes......
This is the same thing that happened with Sodapop Miniatures/Ninja Division. Use the KS funds to pay for anything except for the intended KS and then cast blame to everyone else when the company is suddenly going bankrupt.
I came here to mention that exact company. They’ve stolen so much money from so many people and are somehow allowed to still keep trickling out new miniatures to pay their bills.
Thank you for covering this. I've been arguing with Chris and others in the BAM discord about communicating and trying to hold the company accountable.
Had I known this guy has had 100 hundred different "companies" all along with their each individual Kickstarters, and that Rivenstone did not deliver yet, I would've cancelled my pledge for the paints. Normally, I just wait for these paints to hit retail, because most of the time these crowd funded paints take almost a year to get them and it isn't really worth it getting the paints potentially a month ahead of non-backers. These paints were being toted for their quick turnover. That is why I didn't back UltraAcryl for the long wait. Huge Miniatures did a kickstarter for there airbrush paints with a september delivery, and they are actually posting updates and showing the paints in bottles! Thanks for bringing this more into the light, I really hope some more people in the tabletop hobby talk about this, especially the ones that were sponsored by BAM to promote the kickstarter, not that they are responsible for this, but just to get the word out there for the unaware.
Yeah it's a real bait and switch. To using the money to delivery what you promised now instead of taking it to still not deliver what you promised before. $600,000+ raised via campaigns and nothing to show for it except excuses and bannings.
I'd like to know where their sculptors end up going. I fell in love with their style before their patreon started and it excited me every month to see what they came up with. I'd love to follow the talent, especially if they're leaving behind the BAM name.
Almost backed these, now I'm really glad I didn't. Love how he mentions Reaper being so successful, part of the reason they're successful is they've got SIX projects they've done, five of them fully delivered and the sixth well on the way to being done. Plus they're an already wildly successful, well known company in the miniatures business, and they treat their customers like family, unlike some other miniature companies that I could name. The people running the business and working there are some of the most personable and passionate about their work that I've ever seen, though I haven't met them in person, I've seen their love for the hobby in every video that they post on their channel here. Broken Anvil should've taken a page out of that playbook and done what they needed to do instead of treating the KS projects like some sort of unlimited funding for his "Lifestyles of the Rich and Terminally Stupid" way of living.
Reaper Minis are where I got my start in the hobby of minis. They're great and I love getting freebies when I buy from their webstore, even if that freebie is just a botched bottle of paint that wasn't quite the right shade. Still useful to have those samples so long as I don''t use them as an integral part of a wider color scheme!
Being founded by two brothers who are also accountants didn't hurt. I love Reaper Miniatures. Their Kickstarters might run late, but I never worry about them.
Thanks for the update. These videos should 101 for people trying to run a project on KS/GF... Also, if you have time, take a look at the project of Shadow Tactics (the board game) by Antler Games. The game is not out yet, but it's a fine example when probably the most junior member of the company takes on himself delivering the game when the original management gave up and moved on the other jobs...
These events reminded me of the first company I worked in. It was a tech startup of two veteran engineers. We were a small team who did awesome stuff (We have a ton of designs still working in factories, hospitals and in space). Our inital success made our bosses to spend lavishly and take risks. They were good engineers but bad businesspeople. 2013 was my worst year as both the company and my life sunk. I couldn't get my severance pay as there was nothing left. There is one difference however. My bosses were not assholes. They communicated the failures, they cut costs properly, did their best to turn business but failed. They helped me find new jobs by their connections in the later years.
This is my first exposure to your channel - and I hadn't even heard of Broken Anvil Miniatures - but your earnestness, kindness, sweetness really hit me. Thank you for making this content, and being kind most of all. That's so amazing - I think these videos can be so harsh to people and you are so pleasant.
The economics of cheap mini kickstarters are no longer those of 2012...and like there's barely room for reaper bones kickstarters in that lane anymore. No more big box of physical minis KS for me from anyone whos not Reaper or Archon Studio. Every other one i've gone in on has faceplanted in their own unique ways. Blacklist mini jail, Next level extra tiny bois, black hallows bankruptcy, BAM bankrupcy. Jeez me, what happens when you get to fool me four times >.
The difference with kingdom death is that the product that you receive is miles above from what was promised. I would back another kingdom death project in a heartbeat.
Your discussion about "moving on to other projects is spot on for why I stopped buying anything from Modiphius. They are some of the worst offenders on this. A few months ago I received what I guess is the last few books of the Infinity RPG: 5 years after the project ended. SMH
I remember backing their pateon some time ago. Cool stls, was really bummed that they shifted their model the way they did, and therefore left. Was also super interested in Rivenstone, and remember seeing the forged campaign and being intrigued too. I'm sure glad I never got further than that.
I don't know about US laws, but in the UK, shareholders of a limited company can be paid dividends, which are different to salary payments. Dividends are taken from company profits, and so are taxed at a lower rate than salaries, which are considered a cost before profit. Maybe that's the hair that BAM owners were splitting. Oh, and if they were buying the daily groceries on company money (door dashing etc) then that might also be a part of it. They weren't taking a salary but maybe were getting paid in food.
I appreciate that you stated reaching out to them for their comment on this. Usually people making this type of video don't take that step and it's important. Edit: So I guess I should go looking for the stls now that getting the actual product or my money back has effectively dropped to 0?
Yeah STL's might be the only thing you get :/ Supposedly they are close to delivering several of their projects but I don't feel their word means much right now. And sadly still no response to my inquiry. I checked again before uploading and again this morning and just now again. If I hear back I'll definitely let you guys know. Of note, nothing I said in the email is rude or mean or anything. Just said I was making a video covering their update and the DakkaDakka thread and if they had anything to add, clarify or comment on I'd promise to include it in the video. No such luck though :(
@@TheKingofAverage I read through comments on their KS page and what really pisses me off now is that they replied a while back to someone saying that all the stls existed before the project. I was under the impression the project was to make the stls, use that to build molds and then produce the plastic minis. That is why I was ok with their updates stating delays to the process were pushing back the fabrication and shipping date. But no! It was even easier than that, as soon as the campaign ended they could have dropped ~50% of the budget and immediately sent out a PO to produce the molds. They even say this is literally all they need to do in their campaign description! It even says $50,000 to produce the adventure box molds so assuming the final number of minis was 2x that it does work out to $100,000 or half the budget of the KS... The campaign also says after 45 days after the campaign end they would have started producing which is why they couldn't offer refunds beyond then, because the money would be sent to the manufacturer. Is that why they quote that now, in 45 days they may have some news to report? They have no idea what's going on and are using that same 45 day timeline that was probably quoted by the manufacturer if they even have one at this point? From their updates it sounds like they haven't even started any production yet and BAM has offered 0 counter narrative or actual production updates beyond "things are going slowly". I can only assume they have done literally no work on the project since it funded 9 months ago. Unbelievable.
Exactly, well put. It was always a scam (and why I am fine using such a heavy word) to take the money and apply it to past projects or elsewhere (I feel if they had put it to past projects then they'd have delivered at least those. But nope, nothing anywhere was delivered. They just took the money, spoke about how much "adult money" they had and then spin updates making it seem like everything is progressing while still accepting late pledges.
Ah, raising money for new product in order to pay for old product, classic reverse funnel model. Triangle marketing always works, right until it doesn't.
This isn't the first time! Anybody remember Soda Pop miniatures and their super popular game Super Dungeon Explore? This is EXACTLY what happened there but even bigger. They sold the 3rd game on Kickstarter and made TONS of money. But they never figure out how to write the game. Then they started the plate spinning kickstarters to keep afloat. I think they ended up just stealing hundreds of thousands and never delivered the product.
Angry KoA is best KoA. Always appreciate these videos. Glad I decided not the pull the trigger on this one, I was on the fence for a long time. This is yet another example to sincerely consider not backing anything on KS and wait for the PM or retail. KS gives absolutely no consumer safety post campaign.
Hah! I try to not be the crazy shouting guy too often these days, but taking so much money from so many people and not delivering just makes me feel so upset >:( Thankfully this is *not* the norm for the industry :)
It's amazing how much this mirrors the company that fired me about a year ago. Two small companies owned by the same guy, one developing Ballistics gel, and the other a developer of medical training products. Hired on as the R&D sculptor and mold maker. The owners had their noses in everything, never said no to new clients and gave unrealistic expectations for dead lines and product quantities. They spent tons of money on a new building, had a fully stocked kitchen in the office, cooked lunches every day, huge company trips to places like the Dominican while the owner and his wife would take 2-3 more vacations in the same year to Mexico and Alaska. They hired and fired over 4 employees in a year including myself. I went from making 63,000 a year to 15 bucks an hour. I'm a single full time father going g back to school because my military benefits pay more a month than working full time. I think it's a shame companies can operate like this and destroy people's lives. I'm glad to hear those employees were able to find work.
I backed a LOT of early kickstarters, only CMON, MCDM and Reaper ever delievered, and those were late, but delievered. Every other kickstarter failed to deliever. Honestly, I learned my lesson years ago, and I kinda find it suprising people back any games on Kickstarters.
It's totally fine to back games on kickstarter, just learn to see the red flags. I have backed approx 6-8 games in 4 years and everything has gone well.
that's odd I;ve backed ghostfire, kobold press and goodman games and they delivered... my bud has supported necrotic gnome and been fine (I JUST supported Necrotic Gnome, and I feel safe) Planet X has a great rep as well... maybe you just don't have spidey-sense. lol
Agreed. I have almost abandoned KS. Since it began In like 2012 I have lost about $500 on games that never delivered. And almost everything is YEARS later than expected.
@@HeadCannonPrime if you have lost about 500$ to kickstarters, you really should stop and think that were there any red flags during those campaigns. I have backed games since 2016 and every game has been delivered, some with delays, but those were during covid period, which was totally understandable.
It's totally bizarre that they expected their miniature range to do as well as reaper bones. They don't have the brand rep. The trusted history with d&d. They didn't create a story. They did hardly any marketing. They didn't promise that the range would appear in physical stores, and this was your chance to get them cheap and early. It's sheer unadulterated hubris. They just assumed fomo would kick in. But they never asked themselves what triggers fomo. They assumed they were entitled to fomo.
My first job with a U.S company the owner took a paycheck but was "the same size as (mine)" but also wrote his spouse who I never met in a full in office(less than five employees job) a similar check. But he talked about how he mostly took owner withdrawals for tax reasons over a larger check. Not sure really how they differ but this may be a similar type of situation. Splitting hairs on terminology
I imagine it's something like that. He specifically said "paycheck" I imagine for a reason. Mark Zuckerberg only takes $1 as a paycheck but of course he then has many other ways of making tons of money from his business.
So...a business pays additional percentage of payroll taxes on top of what the employee pays. By taking a draw an owner can avoid paying those taxes and just pay individual income tax. Those "terminology hairs" can amount to many many dollars.
@@MyCleverName I assumed it was a tax dodge of some sort. Place was super shady in lot of ways. But in other news, I am super glad I convinced myself I had enough skirmish games when Rivenstone was funding.
@@RealGyouza Its not a tax dodge. The payroll taxes are for entitlement programs for EMPLOYEES. FICA pays for Medicare, SS and whatnots. When an owner takes a draw, they don't get those entitlements. Any good accountant would advise ANY business owner to do the same. The dollars are still taxed as income. Just "Personal Income" instead of payroll, or corporate income.
@@MyCleverName ok fair enough. I suppose it just felt like they were dodging at the time due to how the owner talked about it and the other things I knew they were doing. As a freshly immigrated young person I was trying to just keep a paycheck when no one else would call me back(right around the 2008 crash). But the owner would often discuss beating the system with his manager. I recall them discussing lying about the managers wages so they could get housing assistance. I got out fairly quickly with a touch of experience and by the time I looked into what I could do they had closed shop. Changed company name and moved to a different state. Which I found they did whenever Amazon caught them abusing their systems.
I appreciate you taking the time to make this video. I kickstart lots of things. I'm not used to getting scammed. I probably would have waited 6 more monthes before worrying about where my order was.
I’m extremely grateful to someone who is in a discord I’m in, where I’d asked if anyone else was worried about their pledges. I had pledged for Forged and for the paints. The person who reached out to me shared how they and someone else had been able to get their pledge cancelled and refunded. I was able to get my pledges refunded for both, but not the Backerkit extra pledge money 🙁 Edit: have watched now and those questions are wait for me booted and refunded too
"Your pledge has been refunded." I posted a comment yesterday with resources for concerned backers to file a complaint with the Washington Office of the Attorney General, and later that night I received an email from Kickstarter informing me that my pledge has been refunded. I noticed that Chris hasn't issued refunds to all the other comments asking for one; instead, he's apparently just refunding the "squeakiest wheels" like me. The cynic in me suspects it's more about Chris having the ability to remove comments encouraging others to take action, like a corporation using union-busting tactics against employees trying to organize their fellow coworkers into standing up for themselves.
This is a great, well researched video. I almost backed this project, because it was recommended to me, but I forgot to return to the email in time before the cut-off. I had never seen your videos before, random YT suggestion because I search for mini vids, but I have subscribed and will be tracking you in the future.
Man, such a bummer. I dug what they were portraying themselves as in the beginning, especially as I think they were the first to dive into those Sciocast machines. And the figures were legitimately cool looking. And Rivenstone sounded fun.
Thank you so much for the video! I backed the paint. While I was looking through the comments your video popped up and I knew I had to watch it. It makes me sick to my stomach thinking about how I gave them money and how I got scammed. I hate it and I hate it for all of the others who got swindled as well.
When you talk about how the developer only provides information when they have to because some truth has leaked out, and they only say enough to address what was leaked, it reminded me of a term that is used in infidelity forums to describe the behavior of cheaters to never admit to anything except what the betrayed already knows and confronts them with. It is called "trickle-truth." The truth is constantly adjusted only when they are confronted with new evidence that they can't deny. So, the story keeps changing only slightly while they try to maintain the general lie.
In fairness to them, I don't think they meant it to go that way initially, just overspendng and bad management made them go that way, it happens far too often in Kickstarters and the like...
I'd have said this was like Robotech Tactics (Especially the deception over who was running the project) or Super Dungeon Explore/Ninja Division (More Kickstarters to pay for old and thinking their dream project would do better than the ones that had already funded.) rather than Kingdon Death which is currently delivering the Gambler's Chest.
I love how these are the guys who were criticizing Privateer Press for ‘not knowing what they were doing’ with 3D print for production. But you know what you can buy models for and play right now? Warmachine Mk IV. While I’ve been waiting for updates on Rivenstone for ages
As someone who backed and has recently received their KD: Gamblers Chest... the thing is simultaneously both glorious and insane. The box that arrived was about three times the size of a GW core game box... I was expecting one about half the size of one of those GW boxes. I admit that I had largely forgotten that I'd backed it.
Hey thanks for the coverage on this I was looking for someone to talk about this and i felt like I was going insane because it's such a huge deal. Love the passion and break down keep up the good work
Really hoipe that this is the end of Chris. Many times on the Discord, the was advised this was where his greed was going to get him and look. So in MY OPINION: hope he's ready for the bed he dug. Super sad for the good people that did work under him
It’s super easy when the kickstarters you’re used to backing are things by folks like MCDM, reaper, Brandon Sanderson, or STL file creators with files on hand ready to deliver the second the money is paid. I nearly backed these guys, but backed out and bought myself a printer instead, best accidental save I’ve had in a long while.
I was a hopeful backer since I first saw the traction the paint products were getting amongst the miniature painting circle. I wish I had known about the sketchy dealings of Broken Anvil prior to backing the paints but as far as I knew at the time, all of their products were good for me. Their physical minis sold back in 2020 were solid, their STLs were good for what they were, and the Dungeon Delvers campaign gave me my products. So as a consumer, I was only getting the good stuff. It truly is disappointing seeing all this news about the paints, as a backer myself, but I'm glad word is getting out there about this mess. Thank you for relaying the news, I feel better about eating the L knowing that more people are shown this about BAM.
So glad I backed Rivenstone.... this was the first Kickstarter I've ever backed. Ngl the project update he sent out, saying that he fired his entire staff and he's the only one fulfilling orders was a pretty big kick in the pants.
Great job on getting the word out on this. The more we know about these issues with campaigns, the better protected we are from backing something risky/a scam in the future (from any company).
sad to hear, i didnt back Rivenstone because not really into that kind of board game but i loved the mini's and was often tempted to order them online from other sources but they were all pre-orders
Kickstarter has become such a Wild West. The default community will blame a person for backing a Kickstarter because 'you knew what you were getting'. But these companies drop 70% of the budget on presentation of the Kickstarter and the rest into production of the products and it's almost become the norm. ThatEvilOne drops a kickstarter for minis every few months and they are repurposed and lacking detail but stuff falls under 'you knew what you were getting'. But a million in revenue from reskinned sculpts they can't bother to sculpt with fitted grooves as opposed to flat surfaces or pay someone to provide presupports that are capable of printing without failure on every single model. This situation is definitely crazier though just outright lying then backpedaling so hard.
Kickstarter need to do something about this before everyone looses any more faith in what they allow to happen. If people can get away with blatantly setting up several fraudulent start ups, then maybe kickstarter need to be investigated too
Kickstarter's answer to this, after losing several international lawsuits , is to put up a disclaimer you must agree to before completing every pledge, that you are not promised ANYTHING, you are investing in a potential delivery.
@@TheKingofAverageyou and a few others I follow, and I believe did so in good faith. They did have production minis and seemed to be doing well, I suspect they had most fooled.
Didn't get any of it. I remember I was in for Rivenstone, but then on the last day I though " do I really need all this and canceled my pledge. Dodged the bullet, but still fell for these other ones like Rally Man Dirt and I hope Mythic eventually gets all it projects out lol.
When I see some obviously purposeful spin and half truths said to keep the people who gave you $600,000+ ignorant it really gets under my skin. To then start banning them and taking away their ability to communicate well? I try not to be the angry shouting guy too often these days, but sometimes it's just so frustrating to see such a bad actor manipulating people.
If you are a business owner, you can take money out of the business via a distribution. The restrictions are that you must divide the distribution amongst all the owners in proportion to what percentage of the business' they own. The reason you'd want to do this is that distributions are taxed much less than regular income. The caveat is that you if you are involved in the day to day running of the business, you must pay yourself a salary. If you don't and you just take distributions then that is tax fraud. And I ran a business without taking any money out (and, in fact, I put money in) for four years. Luckily my wife worked but it was a serious struggle.
Another patron of mind mentioned this same thing. Perhaps that's the case. I know many take like $1 salaries and then do stocks and such as well. It's sad but with all the spin Chris posts when I read him specifically saying "paycheck" I can't help but think he's splitting hairs to make it seem like something else. :( Glad to hear you were a dedicated owner btw! The world needs more like that I feel :)
I could MAYBE understand a company branching off into a 2nd company, like Company A making adult-themed minis and Company B making family friendly minis... but generally only after those two ideas get too big for one company to handle; not when both teams are tiny, and you're probably using the same people to do work at both companies.
When you have two companies making the exact same product, owned by the same people, the only reason there is to do that is to avoid regulation and obfuscate the relationship between the two.
100% agreed. Otherwise there's no real benefit to doing that. You're doubling up on paperwork (assuming you even bother to do that), taxes and everything else logistically to make the same kind of stuff. But you gain the benefit of knowing if you sink one company the other one might go unnoticed.
There is even more, but thats another story..... While I was in their discord I was shocked that no one was complaining about anything. I imagined that they were just banning anyone daring to open their mouth. So I went for it. I remember wirtting about some issue I dont remeber now, it took them a week to answer me. When I complained about what was going on I was kicked and banned from discord in a minute.
Thank you for covering this. Looking forward to any new developments. As someone who's been burned by both Forged and Rivenstone, do you have any advice for what can be done about it? I'm a pretty frequent Kickstarter backer, and have been very fortunate to mostly back winners. Lately though, I seem to be on a MASSIVE downswing, and would love to recover anything at all from tanked projects like this. I lost on the Village Attacks expansion. I'm still waiting on Darkest Dungeon and Anastyr, and not expecting much. And now it seems I'm losing my investments with BAM as well. Do backers have any recourse? Has anyone out there gotten even partial refunds?
Well, Ultracryl turned out to use toxic pigment in their paints despite advertising that they don't, so it's a moot point unfortunately. Be careful with them, especially those that contain cadmium or chromium.
@@p_serdiuk Any source for that? I could not find anything so I don't believe that. Handling toxic materials is extremely strict in Germany and everything has to be labeled accordingly.
@@Jester497 Unfortunately nobody actually compiled this information, but you can find the pigments they use and look up their Material Safety Datasheets from third parties and find out yourself what is safe and what is not. The labeling laws are not as strict as they should be and there are lawsuits going around behind the scenes that basically only professionals know of that involve major European paint companies that mislabel their paints.
@@Jester497 That said, I've just checked and there will be an interview eventually of a chemist who works in art restoration with the Ten01 Labs crew, it seems like Ten01 selected very modern formulations of those pigments that are not dangerous, but there's very little information available about them and the interview is still being edited. Still, I wouldn't eat or airbrush some of those colors, it's better to be cautious than sick.
Egh... KDM definitely strikes me as the same kind of issue but Soda Pop falls in line with the same model of make a campaign to try and cover the last. Why people keep thinking this is a good idea is beyond me.
I expected this but it's also kinda disappointing. I remember thinking the Rivenatone minis looked really cool. Why can't people understand that you need to make a product to sell people to make money, you can't sell people on the "idea" of a product for so long.
I've seen this with other game companies living high on Kickstarter funds and putting the cash into completing other projects. Then they go radio silent when the demand for results got too much.
Great video! I actually said to them on instagram oh seems exciting I hope it doesn't take too long and they said "They are ready to produce. We just need the order numbers and its off to the races" guess it was too many order numbers? Definitely a scam very disappointing.
Thanks for covering this. It's crazy making. Below is the most recent KS update (Sept 1)... obviously, until there's more news and some evidence (they posted a screen cap showing payment for bottles - is it real or doctored?), it's hard to start celebrating, but it's possibly the first positive step in seeing the paint KS achieved. As a backer, I hope it's not bullshit...many of the things you've addressed are part of conversations and questions I and other have brought up in the Discord and KS arenas. And on top of all that, I'm a little ticked off at the paint channel personalities who made videos promoting the line and giving visibility to the KS. Yeah, they're just giving their opinion of the paint, which was very positive as were the results - and they're not malicious folks. But while they're not responsible for how BA mismanaged their funding and campaign, the videos are still up with no message or update or indication that they're essentially promoting a product and company that screwed everyone over. There's no advocation or acknowledgement that they reached out to BA and said you're making me look bad by association. The lesson is that, much like the celebs wildly promoting bitcoins and tokens in the wave of Super Bowl commercials, they're just doing promotion or enriching themselves, and channels having sponsors is no different, and testimonials should still be weighed cautiously. Anyway, here's what they say: " After the update we released on Friday I did what I said I was going to do and keep working on solving issues. A little bit of good timing and some proper budgeting, and we have some meaningful progress! Paint is paid for and they begin production next week. I was told that production on this would take between 2-4 weeks. Bottles are produced, paid for and currently awaiting pick up for shipment. They will arrive at the manufacturer in around 8-10 days. Looks like we will have these paints out well before the end of the year! The longest wait coming up will be when we have to ship by sea from England to the States. Then of course we have pack out. But I imagine we can get this all wrapped up and ready to ship to you all at the beginning of November. As they produce the paint, I will ask for what ever photos they feel comfortable sharing, I know a lot of their process is proprietary and confidential, but I want to show you all progress at any juncture I can. I hope this update helps to show you all that meaningful progress is being made, and that the paints will get to you much sooner than the last update stated. " Take it at face value or not...we'll see.
I backed the paints and received them a month ago. I don't want to say it was all ok what they did (it definetly wasnt), but i have to say they delivered even when very many people said they wouldn't. It would be fair to give them credit for that.
Thanks for this video, this is crazy. I remember when I first started looking at minis and 3D printing, Broken Anvil was one of the studios that made me go wow….this is amazing stuff. I want to learn how to design terrain for 3D printing. Just blown away.
Sad panda noises. I know several of the guys and had a chance to go to dinner with several of the guys many years ago during lock and load. Great guys and super cool. I’m really sad but I kind of saw it coming as Rivenstone kept getting pushed back and back. I hope they figure everything out.
Watched the video because i was once a backer of Red Scar's RPG flop. On the bright side, in the meantime I fell in love with Archon Studios in part due to the honest way they communicate and seem to run their business - sometimes they even comment on other companies decisions, which is like a little peek into the way the industry works.
Its like when the airlines got that big federal bail out. Gave their CEO's huge bonuses, and said "no, no, this is some different money. Is that how it works?
Thanks for highlighting this problem, I'm not super familiar with Broken Anvil or 52, but I've seen a LOT of crowdfunding scams before and this fits the bill for one. You mention that we see it all the time with games, and that's absolutely true. It feels like every day there's a new KS for a "world-changing MMO that will completely redesign gaming as we know it" and it gets funded but never materializes in any playable fashion, or if it does it's hot garbage. As someone rediscovering mini wargaming after 10 years, things like this make me less likely to branch out to other games and companies. GW has problems and we all know about them, but at least they're not blatantly scamming and plate-spinning a dying company while lying to their user-base. Can't say I'd ever support a wargaming company via crowdfunding, it's just not worth the risk.
Thank you for the researching and sharing. I confess i nearly backed this one - glad i did not now, for sure! Hope those that did manage to get some recompense but it's unlikely at this stage 😢
Wow, I almost backed Rivenstone, mostly because of paid for sponsors from other content creators. I was a Patreon of their STL project from the beginning, but I cancelled when Chris said on a podcast something about how the STL space was going to collapse and physical miniatures and a few STL creators would be left. Apt company name at least, Broken Anvil. If any of the digital sculptors are off running a Patreon please drop the link. Their work was phenomenal, would love to support those sculptors.
Also a weird conspiracy theory in my head: I remember seeing in a video that the BAM painters had a full set of Golden So Flat at their desks. I had been using those paints for a while thanks to a Dick Blick sale and I knew they were fantastic value for miniature painting, I just wish those paints were bottled in droppers. Wonder if there is any chance that BAM Studio paint was repackaged Golden So Flat. The So Flat range seems to cover a number of the colors they had on offer in the BAM KS - they are the typical artist colors you find with professional acrylics - with some in-between shades that could have been created through mixing. Anyway, probably wrong on this but wouldn't surprise me if this was the case. (The missing ingredient... bottles?)
Hey! I was the head studio painter brought in a year ago - I had the other painters stop using soflat. (They still used it for statue work) The paints were mixed from various paint lines to provide pigment for spectral analysis at the factory level, with the factory providing the requested consistency.@@charlesfe
It's really sad how seemingly successful campaigns often breaks business, though that's usually a result of a poor business foundation exposed by the need to fulfill a massive KS. Sad for the backers and the employees that are there trying to do work they're passionate about, not the ones who wind up getting exposed. Makes you respect and appreciate the ones that don't have a bunch of overlapping projects and deliver even when they have to eat the profit they thought they had. Really glad I just got the models for printing myself from Forged, never going to see those Blacklist ones I ordered from before I got a resin printer.
Well, that explains a lot. I had reached out to BA last spring after having run several well-attended Paint & Take events at my own expense, I had hoped to have them as a sponsor. I mentioned this to them and they seemed enthusiastic at the suggestion, only to find their messages deleted when looking them up in order to start finalizing plans a month or so ago.
You're not working yourself up enough. I want to see flying miniatures and boardgames when you get angry about this stuff, maybe a few cats and chicken too :-)
Had friends that work there, and I've spoken to multiple former employees. What's that in that first post is pretty damn accurate from everyone I've talked to. They leave out that Chris was a micromanager and projects got behind because he had to have his fingers on everything. Cedar Point be able to rolls and then never get out of the way and let them do their jobs. There were some incredibly talented people working there thankfully most all of them have moved on to other paying gigs. A couple have gone on to make their own little Studio that makes STL files and goes to event selling Minis. Nailon minis studios.
I'm a geek, and I'll just say it: This kinda scam is easy to pull on geeks, because most geeks aren't intelligent enough to spot the red flags, and will get downright defensive or hostile if you try to point out a potential problem like this.
Well, shit... I backed Forged. Was thinking about the paint, glad I didn't. It's almost funny, I was still giving them the benefit of the doubt after the last update where he laid out all their woes, but I was starting to get worried we'd been hosed. And then I happened to see your video today. I'll go get a towel. Thanks for laying it all out, keep fighting the good fight.
Kickstarter has something for this: They tell everybody Kickstarter is not a shop and you can not expect any reward for the money you give to the projects and they ask everybody to acknowledge this before they pledge
I don't think kickstarter is to blame. They only connect creators with investors. People forget that they are playing the role of investor and not consumer.
@@LEF3133 of course the term "investor" isnt 100% applicable. I think kick-starting products is a nightmare for the consumer and I cant believe people are doing it. They aren't exactly an "investor" but they aren't a consumer either.
Thanks for this video. I'm glad I was only at the base pledge. I think the fact that they're auto-refunding for bad optics makes it seem like they might be confident that they still have a funding source, so I wonder if the acquisition might still be realistic. However, the bad press could peel that right apart or, the best option for all, maybe the acquiring company cuts off the head of the snake before pushing forward
When a young digital file company openly tries to compare itself to an over 30 year old miniature company that owns it's own factory.... thats a red flag.
If a company launches a 2nd kickstart before fulfilling the first then that is a massive red flag.
I think it's important to not be reactionary. One shouldn't generalize on this.
Take Wyrmwood, for instance. They've run KS's that overlap for years now, simply because setting up new infrastructure and adapting existing infrastructure for each new thing, which is a requirement as soon as you break into a new kind of product, even if it's in the same domain (in this case, woodworking) takes time. They're also dependent on a lot of external infrastructure to get their raw materials, which is a complication all on its own. Yet, and in spite of external factors they have no control over, they deliver.
And just thinking hypothetically about the situation, there are good reasons to run overlapping kickstarters. As soon as you leave your initial niche (STL file production), you'll have very specialised people on staff. 3d artists, for instance, can't really do anything profitable in between kickstarters. I suppose a company could put them to work in order fulfillment in between projects, but A) They're more likely to not want to do that and quit, especially the really good ones you want to keep around, and B) even if they agree to help out fulfillment, they are still paid a significantly higher wage than the staff you'd hire specifically to do fulfillment. Better then, both for the specialists and the company they work for, if they get the next project off the ground.
So concurrent kickstarters aren't a surefire sign of a scam. But a reason to be cautious and to do more research into the company, for sure, and perhaps to hold off on speculating thousands of your dollars on a product that isn't even finished yet.
@@xxhellspawnedxxstill a massive red flag. Like he said.
2nd to fund the 1st, this sounds a lot like how a pyramid scheme works. Take a second round of money to pay off the 1st round of investors.
@@themonkeyhand A pyramid scheme usually is a lot more insidious in how it works. It's common that people are encouraged or even required by the scheme to let the organisation take out loans in their names to pay for the "goods" that each new recruit is expected to sell to pay it back, while the real benefactors of the scheme skims heavily off of it.
The description above also describes every company that ever went into the red. Not the best of descriptors.
@@wn8963 I guess we have different views of what constitutes a red flag. In my head, it means "Categorically stay the fuck away from it, imminent and almost assured risk of harm ahead."
Them using "we forgot paint needs bottles" is probably the funniest asspull excuse I've heard in my life. Like a nat 1 deception roll. Thanks for the coverage, hopefully this incident serves as a wakeup for everyone who treats crowdfunding like a storefront to keep their payroll spinning.
Lol! Right? It was just sooo popular you got caught off guard.
@@TheKingofAverage At least Patreon is a better way to found projects because it forces the creator to be proactive and release monthly their work. Kickstarter do not protect the backers in any way, so i will always thrust more Patreon than Kickstarter...
Honestly I don't want to be negative but ppl who I know is called Chris have always been sus. I need to know some decent Chris out there before I lose faith with people who have that name.
Namely this Chris and Chris Roberts who have been dodging problems so far by selling virtual space ships, but need road maps for their roadmap
I can just imagine it. "Logistically, how will the paint reach the customers?" "Why, it'll magically flow directly from the factory onto their minis, of course."
It seems odd that the factory making the paint also wouldn't also source and supply the bottles. The bottle filling machine surely needs to match the bottle.
I know, because I've tried decanting GW paints into droppers. It's hard.
As someone who own three businesses with my main being an enrolled agent (I do taxes) and book keeping for small businesses this chain of event is very common. Just because your good at what you do (or market it so you seem like it) does not mean you know how to manage money or run a business. This is why i recommend to get a professional book keeper to make sure your in the black, not the red.
I worked in labor regulation for 6 years and the vast majority of small business owners I interacted with should never have owned their own business.
It's "you're", not "your".
Yup, we caught a lot of flack for our pricing on hard cover books, but we had to look at the ROI. Without the high price to jump start the projects we would be doing something different.
Big companies like WOTC can do mass printings in china. Their costs are very limited and ROI is high. Most smaller companies are having to pay set up costs and layout costs and then materials and manufacturing. It all adds up. Too low a price may seem good to you, but it may mean this is the last product the company makes if they even ever delivery anything.
Oh yeah, you need an in house pro book keeper, or you need to hire one. Knowing how to make something cool will only get you so far.
Anyone who is stupid enough to give money to a unknown company promising you stuff ,are retarded.The guy just took your money and had a blast with it and you are left out of pocket 😅
My mother is a book keeper and my dad started a business in 1979 that still profits to this day, BECAUSE fiscal responsibility is the difference between a viable business and guys like Chris.
An important thing people miss about Reaper: They were founded and are run by accountants. It was originally a side-gig so they could understand how to run a business to better serve their clients, and it eventually became so profitable that they could keep at it. But they always keep an eye on balancing the ledgers. They plan out all of their Kickstarters and make sure that they can actually deliver with the amount of money they're asking for.
As an accountant I'm gonna be honest, don't use "run by accountants" as a positive, the company is just run well by people who know how to run a business well. Accounting has very little to do with *most* of running a business.
Sure, but in this specific case the issue is not running the numbers on how much you're bringing in vs. how much you're spending, which is the part of the business I would hope accountants would be best at.@@ppppppqqqppp
@@ppppppqqqppp And yet Reaper managed it.
Dark sword miniatures also is run by a former bank guy. I don't know what Jim Ludwig did exactly but he worked for Wells Fargo in some sort of senior vp type position.
Having business acumen matters a lot
I backed Rivenstone because several of my former co-workers from Privateer Press had started working there and I wanted to support them. All excellent and talented people with a dedication to bringing great games to life, what an absolute disapointment.
I really loved privateer press stuff back in the day. I want nothing but good things for those guys.
@@BlackKara except will pagani. that guy sucks.
all the youtubers who've been paid for promotions of broken anvil need to be informed of this
100% sucks cause among them there are some that are very well valued by the community
@@Spaniard727 Why? They are just random people who make videos you like to watch and really really like to make money on ads. Why would you give their opinion anymore value than a cashier at your local grocery store? You don't know them. They are not your friend. Stop listening to shills and you'll improve the quality of your life.
@@MiniatureMasterClassI value both if they've built up a positive reputation with helpful advice.
If you don't value any opinions why are you watching UA-cam and commenting on videos?
@@unknown70000 To be contrarian, clearly. It's just trolling with a slightly different coat of paint - The aim is to draw attention by creating controversy. Pay it no heed.
@@MiniatureMasterClass Calling them shills is downright slander. Many of the big ones are not shills. They will give honest feedback. They may pick and choose what products to review, so as to push what they view as superior to the forefront, but that's not shilling. Shilling is being dishonestly positive vis a vis a product.
As for why they should be made aware, it's fairly obvious. Because they have peoples' trust, and most work quite hard to maintain that. If an old endorsement is left on youtube, and leads people to a company that is dysfunctional and just as likely to run away with your money as they are to deliver the products, it's in the content creator's interest to take the video down, maybe even make an update on the developing situation, and so on.
I was a Patron of their STL miniature subscription for a while and it was no surprise when that segment went under. They were trying to put out way too many models per month. They had cool models and ideas but lacked leadership to reign in the scope creep that killed their profitability.
Yeah I was in the same boat. Dropped off after the mad scientist set a year or so back.
Did you actually end up with the STL files? I've been trying to track down some especially the mouse ones, but haven't had luck since this whole thing with them following through...
@@Rawkr57 Yes, I got all the STL files that they released on Patreon added to my MyMiniFactory account. Not all their physical models are available in STL though. I don't think they released any Mousefolk in STL.
As always thank you for collating, presenting, and analyzing all the information for everyone!
My pleasure. Not that I enjoy this type of video, as you can tell I'm not happy about it - but happy to help bring awareness and understanding so we can all be smarter consumers and hopefully see this sort of thing in the future before it gets bad.
I was planning on backing the paints, but I seen that riven stone hadn’t been delivered yet, so I was expecting they were robbing Peter to pay Paul.
You called it man
As a backer of both paint and Forged, absolutely your passion and reporting helps. Your fury at this helps me feel heard / validated
I backed the paint, so does this mean I will be scammed again? I backed Cryptic Cabin's brush set. Still waiting, they are blaming the mail system in the UK. I just want the brushes......
@@steveisaak4320 🙁
Back when PP went the full 3D printed route they did throw some shade their way though
This is the same thing that happened with Sodapop Miniatures/Ninja Division. Use the KS funds to pay for anything except for the intended KS and then cast blame to everyone else when the company is suddenly going bankrupt.
Yes exactly. Suddenly it's the fallen merger that's at fault, it's the the backer's fault for backing too much, anything but themselves.
I didn't know that SodaPop went under... I know I've not seen anything from them in a while, but I haven't really been looking, either. QRD?
I came here to mention that exact company. They’ve stolen so much money from so many people and are somehow allowed to still keep trickling out new miniatures to pay their bills.
I'm glad a got a refund as soon as they started selling other crap to fund the project.
My thoughts exactly
Thank you for covering this. I've been arguing with Chris and others in the BAM discord about communicating and trying to hold the company accountable.
It seems public speaking like this prompts communication though I worry that communication is 100% spin :/
Had I known this guy has had 100 hundred different "companies" all along with their each individual Kickstarters, and that Rivenstone did not deliver yet, I would've cancelled my pledge for the paints. Normally, I just wait for these paints to hit retail, because most of the time these crowd funded paints take almost a year to get them and it isn't really worth it getting the paints potentially a month ahead of non-backers.
These paints were being toted for their quick turnover. That is why I didn't back UltraAcryl for the long wait. Huge Miniatures did a kickstarter for there airbrush paints with a september delivery, and they are actually posting updates and showing the paints in bottles!
Thanks for bringing this more into the light, I really hope some more people in the tabletop hobby talk about this, especially the ones that were sponsored by BAM to promote the kickstarter, not that they are responsible for this, but just to get the word out there for the unaware.
Yeah it's a real bait and switch. To using the money to delivery what you promised now instead of taking it to still not deliver what you promised before. $600,000+ raised via campaigns and nothing to show for it except excuses and bannings.
I'd like to know where their sculptors end up going. I fell in love with their style before their patreon started and it excited me every month to see what they came up with. I'd love to follow the talent, especially if they're leaving behind the BAM name.
Agreed. I follow their patreon explicitly for the monthly model releases.
Almost backed these, now I'm really glad I didn't. Love how he mentions Reaper being so successful, part of the reason they're successful is they've got SIX projects they've done, five of them fully delivered and the sixth well on the way to being done. Plus they're an already wildly successful, well known company in the miniatures business, and they treat their customers like family, unlike some other miniature companies that I could name. The people running the business and working there are some of the most personable and passionate about their work that I've ever seen, though I haven't met them in person, I've seen their love for the hobby in every video that they post on their channel here. Broken Anvil should've taken a page out of that playbook and done what they needed to do instead of treating the KS projects like some sort of unlimited funding for his "Lifestyles of the Rich and Terminally Stupid" way of living.
Reaper Minis are where I got my start in the hobby of minis. They're great and I love getting freebies when I buy from their webstore, even if that freebie is just a botched bottle of paint that wasn't quite the right shade. Still useful to have those samples so long as I don''t use them as an integral part of a wider color scheme!
Being founded by two brothers who are also accountants didn't hurt. I love Reaper Miniatures. Their Kickstarters might run late, but I never worry about them.
I'm a physical minis pledge backer of the Forged Kickstarter by Broken Anvil and for months I've been concerned. Now I'm just disgusted.
Same. $120 down the drain and nothing to show for it.
Thanks for the update. These videos should 101 for people trying to run a project on KS/GF...
Also, if you have time, take a look at the project of Shadow Tactics (the board game) by Antler Games. The game is not out yet, but it's a fine example when probably the most junior member of the company takes on himself delivering the game when the original management gave up and moved on the other jobs...
Shadow tactics is a crazy journey for an IP game, to be sure.
Kudos for Gergely for keeping that one alive.
These events reminded me of the first company I worked in. It was a tech startup of two veteran engineers.
We were a small team who did awesome stuff (We have a ton of designs still working in factories, hospitals and in space). Our inital success made our bosses to spend lavishly and take risks. They were good engineers but bad businesspeople.
2013 was my worst year as both the company and my life sunk. I couldn't get my severance pay as there was nothing left.
There is one difference however. My bosses were not assholes. They communicated the failures, they cut costs properly, did their best to turn business but failed. They helped me find new jobs by their connections in the later years.
Thank you for covering this. It is always disappointing when a situation like this happens, but important to discuss when it does.
This is my first exposure to your channel - and I hadn't even heard of Broken Anvil Miniatures - but your earnestness, kindness, sweetness really hit me. Thank you for making this content, and being kind most of all. That's so amazing - I think these videos can be so harsh to people and you are so pleasant.
agreed this is the 1st vid ive watched as well. He seems to know his topic.
The economics of cheap mini kickstarters are no longer those of 2012...and like there's barely room for reaper bones kickstarters in that lane anymore. No more big box of physical minis KS for me from anyone whos not Reaper or Archon Studio. Every other one i've gone in on has faceplanted in their own unique ways. Blacklist mini jail, Next level extra tiny bois, black hallows bankruptcy, BAM bankrupcy. Jeez me, what happens when you get to fool me four times >.
I thought of Blacklist as well who tried the same thing :( Sucks.
The difference with kingdom death is that the product that you receive is miles above from what was promised. I would back another kingdom death project in a heartbeat.
Your discussion about "moving on to other projects is spot on for why I stopped buying anything from Modiphius. They are some of the worst offenders on this. A few months ago I received what I guess is the last few books of the Infinity RPG: 5 years after the project ended. SMH
Feels like Soda Pop Miniatures/Ninja Division with Super Dungeon Legends...
Aww... I'm still sore about that one.
So... a few months ago, I had an opportunity to apply to be a sculptor for Broken Anvil. Guess now I know why they never even got back to me.
I remember backing their pateon some time ago. Cool stls, was really bummed that they shifted their model the way they did, and therefore left. Was also super interested in Rivenstone, and remember seeing the forged campaign and being intrigued too. I'm sure glad I never got further than that.
I don't know about US laws, but in the UK, shareholders of a limited company can be paid dividends, which are different to salary payments.
Dividends are taken from company profits, and so are taxed at a lower rate than salaries, which are considered a cost before profit.
Maybe that's the hair that BAM owners were splitting.
Oh, and if they were buying the daily groceries on company money (door dashing etc) then that might also be a part of it. They weren't taking a salary but maybe were getting paid in food.
I appreciate that you stated reaching out to them for their comment on this. Usually people making this type of video don't take that step and it's important.
Edit: So I guess I should go looking for the stls now that getting the actual product or my money back has effectively dropped to 0?
Yeah STL's might be the only thing you get :/ Supposedly they are close to delivering several of their projects but I don't feel their word means much right now.
And sadly still no response to my inquiry. I checked again before uploading and again this morning and just now again. If I hear back I'll definitely let you guys know. Of note, nothing I said in the email is rude or mean or anything. Just said I was making a video covering their update and the DakkaDakka thread and if they had anything to add, clarify or comment on I'd promise to include it in the video. No such luck though :(
@@TheKingofAverage I read through comments on their KS page and what really pisses me off now is that they replied a while back to someone saying that all the stls existed before the project. I was under the impression the project was to make the stls, use that to build molds and then produce the plastic minis. That is why I was ok with their updates stating delays to the process were pushing back the fabrication and shipping date. But no! It was even easier than that, as soon as the campaign ended they could have dropped ~50% of the budget and immediately sent out a PO to produce the molds. They even say this is literally all they need to do in their campaign description! It even says $50,000 to produce the adventure box molds so assuming the final number of minis was 2x that it does work out to $100,000 or half the budget of the KS...
The campaign also says after 45 days after the campaign end they would have started producing which is why they couldn't offer refunds beyond then, because the money would be sent to the manufacturer. Is that why they quote that now, in 45 days they may have some news to report? They have no idea what's going on and are using that same 45 day timeline that was probably quoted by the manufacturer if they even have one at this point?
From their updates it sounds like they haven't even started any production yet and BAM has offered 0 counter narrative or actual production updates beyond "things are going slowly". I can only assume they have done literally no work on the project since it funded 9 months ago. Unbelievable.
Exactly, well put. It was always a scam (and why I am fine using such a heavy word) to take the money and apply it to past projects or elsewhere (I feel if they had put it to past projects then they'd have delivered at least those. But nope, nothing anywhere was delivered. They just took the money, spoke about how much "adult money" they had and then spin updates making it seem like everything is progressing while still accepting late pledges.
Ah, raising money for new product in order to pay for old product, classic reverse funnel model. Triangle marketing always works, right until it doesn't.
And eventually it always doesn't.
This isn't the first time! Anybody remember Soda Pop miniatures and their super popular game Super Dungeon Explore? This is EXACTLY what happened there but even bigger. They sold the 3rd game on Kickstarter and made TONS of money. But they never figure out how to write the game. Then they started the plate spinning kickstarters to keep afloat. I think they ended up just stealing hundreds of thousands and never delivered the product.
Thankfully I got a refund when I noticed the plate spinning. A lot of people weren't able to get out of that disaster.
Angry KoA is best KoA. Always appreciate these videos. Glad I decided not the pull the trigger on this one, I was on the fence for a long time.
This is yet another example to sincerely consider not backing anything on KS and wait for the PM or retail. KS gives absolutely no consumer safety post campaign.
Hah! I try to not be the crazy shouting guy too often these days, but taking so much money from so many people and not delivering just makes me feel so upset >:(
Thankfully this is *not* the norm for the industry :)
It's amazing how much this mirrors the company that fired me about a year ago. Two small companies owned by the same guy, one developing Ballistics gel, and the other a developer of medical training products. Hired on as the R&D sculptor and mold maker. The owners had their noses in everything, never said no to new clients and gave unrealistic expectations for dead lines and product quantities. They spent tons of money on a new building, had a fully stocked kitchen in the office, cooked lunches every day, huge company trips to places like the Dominican while the owner and his wife would take 2-3 more vacations in the same year to Mexico and Alaska. They hired and fired over 4 employees in a year including myself. I went from making 63,000 a year to 15 bucks an hour. I'm a single full time father going g back to school because my military benefits pay more a month than working full time. I think it's a shame companies can operate like this and destroy people's lives. I'm glad to hear those employees were able to find work.
I backed a LOT of early kickstarters, only CMON, MCDM and Reaper ever delievered, and those were late, but delievered.
Every other kickstarter failed to deliever.
Honestly, I learned my lesson years ago, and I kinda find it suprising people back any games on Kickstarters.
It's totally fine to back games on kickstarter, just learn to see the red flags. I have backed approx 6-8 games in 4 years and everything
has gone well.
that's odd
I;ve backed ghostfire, kobold press and goodman games and they delivered... my bud has supported necrotic gnome and been fine (I JUST supported Necrotic Gnome, and I feel safe)
Planet X has a great rep as well...
maybe you just don't have spidey-sense. lol
Agreed. I have almost abandoned KS. Since it began In like 2012 I have lost about $500 on games that never delivered. And almost everything is YEARS later than expected.
@@HeadCannonPrime if you have lost about 500$ to kickstarters, you really should stop and think that were there any red flags during those campaigns. I have backed games since 2016 and every game has been delivered, some with delays, but those were during covid period, which was totally understandable.
It's totally bizarre that they expected their miniature range to do as well as reaper bones.
They don't have the brand rep. The trusted history with d&d. They didn't create a story. They did hardly any marketing. They didn't promise that the range would appear in physical stores, and this was your chance to get them cheap and early.
It's sheer unadulterated hubris. They just assumed fomo would kick in. But they never asked themselves what triggers fomo. They assumed they were entitled to fomo.
My first job with a U.S company the owner took a paycheck but was "the same size as (mine)" but also wrote his spouse who I never met in a full in office(less than five employees job) a similar check.
But he talked about how he mostly took owner withdrawals for tax reasons over a larger check. Not sure really how they differ but this may be a similar type of situation. Splitting hairs on terminology
I imagine it's something like that. He specifically said "paycheck" I imagine for a reason. Mark Zuckerberg only takes $1 as a paycheck but of course he then has many other ways of making tons of money from his business.
So...a business pays additional percentage of payroll taxes on top of what the employee pays. By taking a draw an owner can avoid paying those taxes and just pay individual income tax. Those "terminology hairs" can amount to many many dollars.
@@MyCleverName I assumed it was a tax dodge of some sort. Place was super shady in lot of ways.
But in other news, I am super glad I convinced myself I had enough skirmish games when Rivenstone was funding.
@@RealGyouza Its not a tax dodge. The payroll taxes are for entitlement programs for EMPLOYEES. FICA pays for Medicare, SS and whatnots. When an owner takes a draw, they don't get those entitlements.
Any good accountant would advise ANY business owner to do the same.
The dollars are still taxed as income. Just "Personal Income" instead of payroll, or corporate income.
@@MyCleverName ok fair enough. I suppose it just felt like they were dodging at the time due to how the owner talked about it and the other things I knew they were doing.
As a freshly immigrated young person I was trying to just keep a paycheck when no one else would call me back(right around the 2008 crash). But the owner would often discuss beating the system with his manager. I recall them discussing lying about the managers wages so they could get housing assistance. I got out fairly quickly with a touch of experience and by the time I looked into what I could do they had closed shop. Changed company name and moved to a different state. Which I found they did whenever Amazon caught them abusing their systems.
Basically, they pulled a Ninja Division and suffered the same issues. Only Broken Anvil didn't have the products and funds to survive that frak up.
I appreciate you taking the time to make this video. I kickstart lots of things. I'm not used to getting scammed. I probably would have waited 6 more monthes before worrying about where my order was.
Glad I could help just sorry it wasn't better news this time.
"pay rent" might mean office rent and not his own personal rent... but I guess that is just a tiny thing in this big disaster story 🙂
I’m extremely grateful to someone who is in a discord I’m in, where I’d asked if anyone else was worried about their pledges. I had pledged for Forged and for the paints. The person who reached out to me shared how they and someone else had been able to get their pledge cancelled and refunded. I was able to get my pledges refunded for both, but not the Backerkit extra pledge money 🙁
Edit: have watched now and those questions are wait for me booted and refunded too
"Your pledge has been refunded."
I posted a comment yesterday with resources for concerned backers to file a complaint with the Washington Office of the Attorney General, and later that night I received an email from Kickstarter informing me that my pledge has been refunded. I noticed that Chris hasn't issued refunds to all the other comments asking for one; instead, he's apparently just refunding the "squeakiest wheels" like me. The cynic in me suspects it's more about Chris having the ability to remove comments encouraging others to take action, like a corporation using union-busting tactics against employees trying to organize their fellow coworkers into standing up for themselves.
@@jtwernbold yup. I got that when I asked questions. And I haven’t had the backer kit part refunded, possibly because it doesn’t seem as public?
This is a great, well researched video. I almost backed this project, because it was recommended to me, but I forgot to return to the email in time before the cut-off. I had never seen your videos before, random YT suggestion because I search for mini vids, but I have subscribed and will be tracking you in the future.
Man, such a bummer. I dug what they were portraying themselves as in the beginning, especially as I think they were the first to dive into those Sciocast machines. And the figures were legitimately cool looking. And Rivenstone sounded fun.
Thank you so much for the video! I backed the paint. While I was looking through the comments your video popped up and I knew I had to watch it. It makes me sick to my stomach thinking about how I gave them money and how I got scammed. I hate it and I hate it for all of the others who got swindled as well.
In my experience, “We are unable to comment at this time” is code for “we’ve lawyered up”
Yeah good point, almost always some legal thing.
When you talk about how the developer only provides information when they have to because some truth has leaked out, and they only say enough to address what was leaked, it reminded me of a term that is used in infidelity forums to describe the behavior of cheaters to never admit to anything except what the betrayed already knows and confronts them with. It is called "trickle-truth." The truth is constantly adjusted only when they are confronted with new evidence that they can't deny. So, the story keeps changing only slightly while they try to maintain the general lie.
Ah interesting! That's a really good term I think
This was essentially a Ponzi scheme-hoping to use funding for subsequent projects in previous projects.
In fairness to them, I don't think they meant it to go that way initially, just overspendng and bad management made them go that way, it happens far too often in Kickstarters and the like...
@@patrickbarrett7536 That maybe true, but that is cold comfort. "I didn't start out planning to scam you, but ended up scamming you anyways."
I'd have said this was like Robotech Tactics (Especially the deception over who was running the project) or Super Dungeon Explore/Ninja Division (More Kickstarters to pay for old and thinking their dream project would do better than the ones that had already funded.) rather than Kingdon Death which is currently delivering the Gambler's Chest.
Reminds me very much of Soda Pop Miniatures and Super Dungeon Explore 2nd Edition.
I love how these are the guys who were criticizing Privateer Press for ‘not knowing what they were doing’ with 3D print for production. But you know what you can buy models for and play right now? Warmachine Mk IV. While I’ve been waiting for updates on Rivenstone for ages
ironic right?
As someone who backed and has recently received their KD: Gamblers Chest... the thing is simultaneously both glorious and insane. The box that arrived was about three times the size of a GW core game box... I was expecting one about half the size of one of those GW boxes.
I admit that I had largely forgotten that I'd backed it.
The guy behind KDM seems to go overboard I still have somethings from that KS I not gotten but he seems to fulfill his promises
Oh and the only KS that I got ripped off was mage sleeves at the same time as KDM who tried to ask for $30 shipping
He seems to bite off more than he can chew with his ambitious projects but he's also the master of plate spinning.
UPDATE: the Paints have mostly shipped to US backers now and soon after international orders will be shipped as well.
Hey thanks for the coverage on this I was looking for someone to talk about this and i felt like I was going insane because it's such a huge deal. Love the passion and break down keep up the good work
Thank you! Happy to at least help spread the word.
The saying 'Rearranging the chairs on the Titanic' springs to mind.
Ouch. Not good.
Thanks for the vid!
Really hoipe that this is the end of Chris. Many times on the Discord, the was advised this was where his greed was going to get him and look. So in MY OPINION: hope he's ready for the bed he dug. Super sad for the good people that did work under him
Thanks for the video! I think you are spot on. We will not see any real product from them.
Darn… looks like I’m SOL on my kickstarter with them. Like an “accidental “ pyramid scheme. Good coverage, thanks. I forget about the risk in KS.
It’s super easy when the kickstarters you’re used to backing are things by folks like MCDM, reaper, Brandon Sanderson, or STL file creators with files on hand ready to deliver the second the money is paid. I nearly backed these guys, but backed out and bought myself a printer instead, best accidental save I’ve had in a long while.
And the Sodapop Ninja Div team are still out there in the market despite not delivering on several projects that made millions.
I was a hopeful backer since I first saw the traction the paint products were getting amongst the miniature painting circle. I wish I had known about the sketchy dealings of Broken Anvil prior to backing the paints but as far as I knew at the time, all of their products were good for me. Their physical minis sold back in 2020 were solid, their STLs were good for what they were, and the Dungeon Delvers campaign gave me my products. So as a consumer, I was only getting the good stuff. It truly is disappointing seeing all this news about the paints, as a backer myself, but I'm glad word is getting out there about this mess. Thank you for relaying the news, I feel better about eating the L knowing that more people are shown this about BAM.
Thank you for this update. Hopefully you and the many others speaking out will have some impact.
So glad I backed Rivenstone.... this was the first Kickstarter I've ever backed.
Ngl the project update he sent out, saying that he fired his entire staff and he's the only one fulfilling orders was a pretty big kick in the pants.
Great job on getting the word out on this. The more we know about these issues with campaigns, the better protected we are from backing something risky/a scam in the future (from any company).
sad to hear, i didnt back Rivenstone because not really into that kind of board game but i loved the mini's and was often tempted to order them online from other sources but they were all pre-orders
Kickstarter has become such a Wild West. The default community will blame a person for backing a Kickstarter because 'you knew what you were getting'. But these companies drop 70% of the budget on presentation of the Kickstarter and the rest into production of the products and it's almost become the norm. ThatEvilOne drops a kickstarter for minis every few months and they are repurposed and lacking detail but stuff falls under 'you knew what you were getting'. But a million in revenue from reskinned sculpts they can't bother to sculpt with fitted grooves as opposed to flat surfaces or pay someone to provide presupports that are capable of printing without failure on every single model. This situation is definitely crazier though just outright lying then backpedaling so hard.
Damn, I went in on the miniatures. Glad I didn't go too deep.
ah sorry dude >.
Kickstarter need to do something about this before everyone looses any more faith in what they allow to happen. If people can get away with blatantly setting up several fraudulent start ups, then maybe kickstarter need to be investigated too
Kickstarter's answer to this, after losing several international lawsuits , is to put up a disclaimer you must agree to before completing every pledge, that you are not promised ANYTHING, you are investing in a potential delivery.
Great coverage. Thankfully, I avoided all of their projects.
Glad to hear it! Hopefully most here did. I covered their last 3 product offerings though :(
@@TheKingofAverageyou and a few others I follow, and I believe did so in good faith. They did have production minis and seemed to be doing well, I suspect they had most fooled.
Didn't get any of it. I remember I was in for Rivenstone, but then on the last day I though " do I really need all this and canceled my pledge. Dodged the bullet, but still fell for these other ones like Rally Man Dirt and I hope Mythic eventually gets all it projects out lol.
Same here! Bailed last couple of days on rivenstone but got bit for rallyman dirt and Anastyr. 😢😢
i'm amazed at your resolve to not spout profanities at this guy. Seems like hard work.
When I see some obviously purposeful spin and half truths said to keep the people who gave you $600,000+ ignorant it really gets under my skin. To then start banning them and taking away their ability to communicate well?
I try not to be the angry shouting guy too often these days, but sometimes it's just so frustrating to see such a bad actor manipulating people.
If you are a business owner, you can take money out of the business via a distribution. The restrictions are that you must divide the distribution amongst all the owners in proportion to what percentage of the business' they own. The reason you'd want to do this is that distributions are taxed much less than regular income. The caveat is that you if you are involved in the day to day running of the business, you must pay yourself a salary. If you don't and you just take distributions then that is tax fraud.
And I ran a business without taking any money out (and, in fact, I put money in) for four years. Luckily my wife worked but it was a serious struggle.
Another patron of mind mentioned this same thing. Perhaps that's the case. I know many take like $1 salaries and then do stocks and such as well. It's sad but with all the spin Chris posts when I read him specifically saying "paycheck" I can't help but think he's splitting hairs to make it seem like something else. :(
Glad to hear you were a dedicated owner btw! The world needs more like that I feel :)
I could MAYBE understand a company branching off into a 2nd company, like Company A making adult-themed minis and Company B making family friendly minis... but generally only after those two ideas get too big for one company to handle; not when both teams are tiny, and you're probably using the same people to do work at both companies.
When you have two companies making the exact same product, owned by the same people, the only reason there is to do that is to avoid regulation and obfuscate the relationship between the two.
100% agreed. Otherwise there's no real benefit to doing that. You're doubling up on paperwork (assuming you even bother to do that), taxes and everything else logistically to make the same kind of stuff.
But you gain the benefit of knowing if you sink one company the other one might go unnoticed.
There is even more, but thats another story..... While I was in their discord I was shocked that no one was complaining about anything. I imagined that they were just banning anyone daring to open their mouth. So I went for it. I remember wirtting about some issue I dont remeber now, it took them a week to answer me. When I complained about what was going on I was kicked and banned from discord in a minute.
well that's a shame, Rivenstone looked like a pretty well designed game, that while i didn't back on KS, likely would have bought into at retail.
yeah really unfortunate both for the lost money but also the lost potential.
Well, i expected that..The way the banned people from their Discord for critics, was shifty. And Backerkit was very much in bed with them.
Thank you for covering this. Looking forward to any new developments.
As someone who's been burned by both Forged and Rivenstone, do you have any advice for what can be done about it? I'm a pretty frequent Kickstarter backer, and have been very fortunate to mostly back winners. Lately though, I seem to be on a MASSIVE downswing, and would love to recover anything at all from tanked projects like this. I lost on the Village Attacks expansion. I'm still waiting on Darkest Dungeon and Anastyr, and not expecting much. And now it seems I'm losing my investments with BAM as well. Do backers have any recourse? Has anyone out there gotten even partial refunds?
Man, I nearly backed the paints but decided against it last minute since UltrAcryl just seemed better. Dodged a bullet right there.
Thank goodness you did!
Well, Ultracryl turned out to use toxic pigment in their paints despite advertising that they don't, so it's a moot point unfortunately.
Be careful with them, especially those that contain cadmium or chromium.
@@p_serdiuk Any source for that? I could not find anything so I don't believe that. Handling toxic materials is extremely strict in Germany and everything has to be labeled accordingly.
@@Jester497 Unfortunately nobody actually compiled this information, but you can find the pigments they use and look up their Material Safety Datasheets from third parties and find out yourself what is safe and what is not. The labeling laws are not as strict as they should be and there are lawsuits going around behind the scenes that basically only professionals know of that involve major European paint companies that mislabel their paints.
@@Jester497 That said, I've just checked and there will be an interview eventually of a chemist who works in art restoration with the Ten01 Labs crew, it seems like Ten01 selected very modern formulations of those pigments that are not dangerous, but there's very little information available about them and the interview is still being edited.
Still, I wouldn't eat or airbrush some of those colors, it's better to be cautious than sick.
And in their latest update, they reveal they misrepresented how much progress they had made in past updates.
Ugh -_-
Egh... KDM definitely strikes me as the same kind of issue but Soda Pop falls in line with the same model of make a campaign to try and cover the last. Why people keep thinking this is a good idea is beyond me.
KDM still shipped the models even if they are slow
I expected this but it's also kinda disappointing. I remember thinking the Rivenatone minis looked really cool.
Why can't people understand that you need to make a product to sell people to make money, you can't sell people on the "idea" of a product for so long.
I've seen this with other game companies living high on Kickstarter funds and putting the cash into completing other projects. Then they go radio silent when the demand for results got too much.
Great video! I actually said to them on instagram oh seems exciting I hope it doesn't take too long and they said "They are ready to produce. We just need the order numbers and its off to the races" guess it was too many order numbers? Definitely a scam very disappointing.
It was no money to order with. They sink the paint pledges into trying to fulfil the KS that was prior to Forged
@@vee_tinymoose lol yes I know. I was kind of being tongue and cheek.
Thanks for covering this. It's crazy making. Below is the most recent KS update (Sept 1)... obviously, until there's more news and some evidence (they posted a screen cap showing payment for bottles - is it real or doctored?), it's hard to start celebrating, but it's possibly the first positive step in seeing the paint KS achieved. As a backer, I hope it's not bullshit...many of the things you've addressed are part of conversations and questions I and other have brought up in the Discord and KS arenas.
And on top of all that, I'm a little ticked off at the paint channel personalities who made videos promoting the line and giving visibility to the KS. Yeah, they're just giving their opinion of the paint, which was very positive as were the results - and they're not malicious folks. But while they're not responsible for how BA mismanaged their funding and campaign, the videos are still up with no message or update or indication that they're essentially promoting a product and company that screwed everyone over. There's no advocation or acknowledgement that they reached out to BA and said you're making me look bad by association. The lesson is that, much like the celebs wildly promoting bitcoins and tokens in the wave of Super Bowl commercials, they're just doing promotion or enriching themselves, and channels having sponsors is no different, and testimonials should still be weighed cautiously. Anyway, here's what they say:
" After the update we released on Friday I did what I said I was going to do and keep working on solving issues. A little bit of good timing and some proper budgeting, and we have some meaningful progress!
Paint is paid for and they begin production next week.
I was told that production on this would take between 2-4 weeks. Bottles are produced, paid for and currently awaiting pick up for shipment. They will arrive at the manufacturer in around 8-10 days.
Looks like we will have these paints out well before the end of the year!
The longest wait coming up will be when we have to ship by sea from England to the States. Then of course we have pack out. But I imagine we can get this all wrapped up and ready to ship to you all at the beginning of November.
As they produce the paint, I will ask for what ever photos they feel comfortable sharing, I know a lot of their process is proprietary and confidential, but I want to show you all progress at any juncture I can.
I hope this update helps to show you all that meaningful progress is being made, and that the paints will get to you much sooner than the last update stated. "
Take it at face value or not...we'll see.
I backed the paints and received them a month ago. I don't want to say it was all ok what they did (it definetly wasnt), but i have to say they delivered even when very many people said they wouldn't.
It would be fair to give them credit for that.
I've written off the money I pledged for the BAM Kickstarter. I'd be happy just getting all - ALL the STL files so I can print my own miniatures.
Hopefully at least that happens. Sorry it turned out so bad :(
@@TheKingofAverageThis is the first KS to not deliver or look like it's not going to deliver. I'm pretty much done with KS at this point.
Thanks for this video, this is crazy. I remember when I first started looking at minis and 3D printing, Broken Anvil was one of the studios that made me go wow….this is amazing stuff. I want to learn how to design terrain for 3D printing. Just blown away.
Sad panda noises. I know several of the guys and had a chance to go to dinner with several of the guys many years ago during lock and load. Great guys and super cool. I’m really sad but I kind of saw it coming as Rivenstone kept getting pushed back and back. I hope they figure everything out.
Watched the video because i was once a backer of Red Scar's RPG flop. On the bright side, in the meantime I fell in love with Archon Studios in part due to the honest way they communicate and seem to run their business - sometimes they even comment on other companies decisions, which is like a little peek into the way the industry works.
Its like when the airlines got that big federal bail out. Gave their CEO's huge bonuses, and said "no, no, this is some different money. Is that how it works?
Do something similar with Blacklist Games.. maybe it will open eyes of some backers who still believe Lasting Tales will be delivered.. ;)
Thanks for highlighting this problem, I'm not super familiar with Broken Anvil or 52, but I've seen a LOT of crowdfunding scams before and this fits the bill for one.
You mention that we see it all the time with games, and that's absolutely true. It feels like every day there's a new KS for a "world-changing MMO that will completely redesign gaming as we know it" and it gets funded but never materializes in any playable fashion, or if it does it's hot garbage.
As someone rediscovering mini wargaming after 10 years, things like this make me less likely to branch out to other games and companies. GW has problems and we all know about them, but at least they're not blatantly scamming and plate-spinning a dying company while lying to their user-base. Can't say I'd ever support a wargaming company via crowdfunding, it's just not worth the risk.
That's very true on all accounts. You know with GW at least what you are getting and that it'll be supported for a while yet.
Thank you for the researching and sharing. I confess i nearly backed this one - glad i did not now, for sure!
Hope those that did manage to get some recompense but it's unlikely at this stage 😢
Wow, I almost backed Rivenstone, mostly because of paid for sponsors from other content creators. I was a Patreon of their STL project from the beginning, but I cancelled when Chris said on a podcast something about how the STL space was going to collapse and physical miniatures and a few STL creators would be left.
Apt company name at least, Broken Anvil.
If any of the digital sculptors are off running a Patreon please drop the link. Their work was phenomenal, would love to support those sculptors.
Also a weird conspiracy theory in my head: I remember seeing in a video that the BAM painters had a full set of Golden So Flat at their desks. I had been using those paints for a while thanks to a Dick Blick sale and I knew they were fantastic value for miniature painting, I just wish those paints were bottled in droppers. Wonder if there is any chance that BAM Studio paint was repackaged Golden So Flat. The So Flat range seems to cover a number of the colors they had on offer in the BAM KS - they are the typical artist colors you find with professional acrylics - with some in-between shades that could have been created through mixing. Anyway, probably wrong on this but wouldn't surprise me if this was the case. (The missing ingredient... bottles?)
Hey! I was the head studio painter brought in a year ago - I had the other painters stop using soflat. (They still used it for statue work) The paints were mixed from various paint lines to provide pigment for spectral analysis at the factory level, with the factory providing the requested consistency.@@charlesfe
Has anyone requested to get the STLs and calling it a day? I want the minis but at this point I’ll take the STLs at this point.
I feel like I dodged a bullet not backing the last kickstarter
It's really sad how seemingly successful campaigns often breaks business, though that's usually a result of a poor business foundation exposed by the need to fulfill a massive KS. Sad for the backers and the employees that are there trying to do work they're passionate about, not the ones who wind up getting exposed. Makes you respect and appreciate the ones that don't have a bunch of overlapping projects and deliver even when they have to eat the profit they thought they had. Really glad I just got the models for printing myself from Forged, never going to see those Blacklist ones I ordered from before I got a resin printer.
Well, that explains a lot. I had reached out to BA last spring after having run several well-attended Paint & Take events at my own expense, I had hoped to have them as a sponsor. I mentioned this to them and they seemed enthusiastic at the suggestion, only to find their messages deleted when looking them up in order to start finalizing plans a month or so ago.
Oh how odd, yeah I suppose this probably sheds some light on that then :)
You're not working yourself up enough. I want to see flying miniatures and boardgames when you get angry about this stuff, maybe a few cats and chicken too :-)
LOL! :D
Had friends that work there, and I've spoken to multiple former employees. What's that in that first post is pretty damn accurate from everyone I've talked to. They leave out that Chris was a micromanager and projects got behind because he had to have his fingers on everything. Cedar Point be able to rolls and then never get out of the way and let them do their jobs. There were some incredibly talented people working there thankfully most all of them have moved on to other paying gigs. A couple have gone on to make their own little Studio that makes STL files and goes to event selling Minis. Nailon minis studios.
Sounds like a delight. 😬
I'm a geek, and I'll just say it: This kinda scam is easy to pull on geeks, because most geeks aren't intelligent enough to spot the red flags, and will get downright defensive or hostile if you try to point out a potential problem like this.
Well, shit... I backed Forged. Was thinking about the paint, glad I didn't. It's almost funny, I was still giving them the benefit of the doubt after the last update where he laid out all their woes, but I was starting to get worried we'd been hosed. And then I happened to see your video today. I'll go get a towel. Thanks for laying it all out, keep fighting the good fight.
Kickstarter needs to take some responsibility for situations like this.
Kickstarter has something for this: They tell everybody Kickstarter is not a shop and you can not expect any reward for the money you give to the projects and they ask everybody to acknowledge this before they pledge
I don't think kickstarter is to blame. They only connect creators with investors. People forget that they are playing the role of investor and not consumer.
@@em3sis if the business does go into bankruptcy does all the people who pledged get listed as a debtor?
@@LEF3133 of course the term "investor" isnt 100% applicable. I think kick-starting products is a nightmare for the consumer and I cant believe people are doing it. They aren't exactly an "investor" but they aren't a consumer either.
They won’t, and never will.
Thanks for this video. I'm glad I was only at the base pledge.
I think the fact that they're auto-refunding for bad optics makes it seem like they might be confident that they still have a funding source, so I wonder if the acquisition might still be realistic. However, the bad press could peel that right apart or, the best option for all, maybe the acquiring company cuts off the head of the snake before pushing forward
Silencing someone is an act of fear, not of someone who is in control. Sadly, nobody will be seeing any product.
When a young digital file company openly tries to compare itself to an over 30 year old miniature company that owns it's own factory.... thats a red flag.