Speedrunners spent so long breaking the game and skipping mechanics that they legit forgot about the intended feature that allows you to return to deep in a dungeon.
Hehe sometimes people try so hard to find another Ocarina of time that they forget sometimes...the casual way is fastest. I even see ZFG sometimes mess up in his randos cause he forgets the casual strats since he's so used to using glitches to do everything. XD
@@MarioMastarSame stuff happens with dark souls speedrunners getting caught by mimicks. They can beat every boss with no armor, fists only, abd avoiding all sources of damage, but they try to play the game normally and get eaten by the first mimick they come across.
It’s funny to me that entering Cave of Ordeals of all places would somehow save time. The optional post-game combat gauntlet through a minimum of ten floors to meet the fairy is the “quick route”.
@@VocalMabiMaple I wonder if any of the speed runners have actually done that? like, start a low transforms run, get to a rupee slide, and then just put that on the back burner while they open up another instance of the game and do an any% while waiting
As it is with any major routing discovery like this, it wasn't really an impressive WR. No shade to the runner, but the raw fact of him saving 10 hours by not doing a pickup slide makes up for any skill expression possible. He could've done the full Cave of Ordeals and a fishing pond, and probably still get the WR by hours. The competitive WR runs will pour in after this discovery has circulated and all the top runners practice the route. The one who deserves the most credit is Morgan, for discovering the route to skip a pickup slide.
@@nebulous9280 I feel like your take is unnecessarily dismissive. Getting a new world record by 9 hours is a fun thing to celebrate, even if the run wasn't very good and will get easily overtaken.
"it was one of the worst performed runs i've done in recent years" "at the end of the run i had saved 9 and a half hours" i know the context but the absurdity of those two statements in such close proximity got me good lol
I remember warching an Untitled Goose Game speedrun and I asked "is there a reason you keep your head up until you're at the pit?" See, the very last part of the game has you take an item and drop it in a pit. Doing it with the goose's head down saves microseconds. But this person was waiting until they were there to lower the head even though you can do it while running. The person was like oh crap i could totally do that couldnt i? I feel like the entire run became redundant soon after since people discovered you can clip through a fence and reach the final area like thirty seconds into the game, but hey.
I kinda like how speedruns are sometimes so focused on doing the min possible as fast as possible that runners just.. forget that sometimes the game has.. mechanics that exist.. like who would willingly go into an optional dungeon.. to go.. faster? Like on paper that sounds backwards but a warp is a warp
and ? is this comment just another OoT fanboy thing "ermmm.... look they took farores wind from OoT, TP sucks OoT is truly the best game ever actually". No, OoT was good awhile ago, OoT is shit nowadays, nothing aged well except a few music tracks, it was good awhile ago now its shit so stop sucking this game deep down your throat
True, I think people are fixated on the Ooccoo thing to meme about it, but... the REAL find was the Cave of Ordeals Fairy warp allowing him to leave the desert in the first place.
This is a typical situation of not being able to see the forest for all the trees. You concentrate so much on the details you forget the most basic stuff because you haven't used them in ages or ever.
Ah yes, my favorite type of speedrunning innovation: Someone Realizing There Is A Much Faster Way to Do Something That Literally Everyone Else Overlooked
Honestly this is why i dont think anything in speedrunning is useless. Everything can and will have a purpose in its time. I did a little speedrunning of a game but the worst part is a lot of the community pushes aside a lot of the “usesless” glitches. It seemed quite weird to me. There is one person on the other hand who always thinks twice about it and he found LOADS of extra routes im always surprised about what he pulls off with every small or large trick haha.
That's very good scientific thinking in action, always taking into account all information available to you even if it does not seem relevant at first!
It's just opposing mindsets. Creativity is risky, while repetition trains perfection. Most speedrunners aren't _creative_ thinkers, they are risk avoidant practitioners. They try to shave infintesmal times off of a deeply practiced series of actions. Speedrunners are the sort of people who would have thrived on factory lines. Meanwhile, the amateur who hasn't programmed himself to think a certain way yet will look at a basic game mechanic that runners skip because it adds five seconds of dialogue and animation and remember "hey, isn't this an intended game mechanic that lets you shortcut half the thing?" and then innocently ask about it, and leave the runners mindboggled how they missed a ten hour timesave.
I have seen a few videos on random speedrun stuff and always there's "this runner found a somewhat pointless glitch because it was inconsistent in the current run" and then someone finds a separate glitch later on that makes the earlier glitch more consistent.. like so many times it's less the first glitch was "useless" and more.. it needed something else to support it before people think about it
@@Xahnel Yeah, which unfortunately has the really negative reputation effect of making it sound like it's more about the execution than the discovery. Like you have glitch hunters and casual players doing all this impressive stuff, then you have some narc pop in out of nowhere to start grinding out a run that was already proven possible just to have thier name on the leaderboard, especially if the glitch is "easy to pull off and really was only a matter of negligence, not a risk/reward case that could "shave off minutes, but failure can cost those minutes back". It kind of reminds me of something a runner said about Echoes of Wisdom. "5 hours is great, but until someone finds a wrong warp, it's not worth doing a run anymore." Like who put this guy's ego on a pedestal? Someone has to go out and find a way to cut the time in half so HE can have the legendary 2 hour run on the leaderboard. and all it was is some memory exploit that required them to read memory values to figure out which wrong warp to use to get to Null space. not even an accident, literally reading the code and abusing a bad memory read.... then letting Link fight the final boss for you cause Zelda can't do anything herself in this state. Frankly I get beating the game as quickly as possible is the goal of speedrunning, but it's a fruitless goal if the clock is all that matters, and not the puzzle pieces that build the path to that time. There's SO much more to Echoes of Wisdom that could lead to really cool runs and skips and such that would be great to watch or try, but the attitude of "Make it worth the speed runner's time" reminds me "If I wanted to watch a series of predefined inputs play the game, just make a TAS and be done with it. I do NOT care if a human pressed a sequence of inputs frame perfectly or a computer did the same thing cause in the end, it makes the same video and at least the TAS is a group effort in what it tries to accomplish. But there definitely are many MANY speedrunners that do know how to keep the runs entertaining and show respect to those who found the glitches, those who love the game casually, and don't act exclusively like a name on a leaderboard is the only reason to play the game.
In a similar vein, this video taught me you can restore the bridge of eldin lmao. When i played i just went the long way around every single time. It was very annoying and I figured I missed something but I didnt know where, so I never ended up working it out.
Oh wow that’s funny lmao I played through the whole game not knowing about the cave of ordeals ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I just never went back to where the bridge piece was lol
If they've proven anything, it's that Zelda games are built to last as long as the legends themselves. Just astounding how there's always a reason to go back to these fantastic games. and if people would stop bragging about item duping in Tears of the Kingdom (literally just hex editing with action replay at this point), we might see some really cool stuff in that game too. Same for Echoes of Wisdom if they drop the "wrong warp memory manipulation" elitism for a minute. I really love seeing people really show the potential for cool run throughs, strategies and such, and stuff like this, the min transforms run is exactly what keeping me coming back! Something a casual could do to still enjoy the game.
@@enorma29sort of. Speedrunning has a lot in common with ROP (Return-Oriented Programming), an exploit technique where all behaviors (intended and unintended) are considered "gadgets" that are "chained" together to create an exploit (e.g. privilege escalation). Because the list of all behaviors is so incredibly long (and nearly all of them useless), and because the behaviors must be executed in a particular order to achieve something useful, ROP (like a speedrun) can be considered an extraordinarily complex exercise in pathfinding (identifying a sequence of techniques, intended or not, which achieve some goal, where each technique has its own associated cost function, such as how different speedrun techniques take more/less time or are less reliable). While a good path seems obvious in retrospect, identifying that path is actually wildly complex in a way that is difficult to appreciate after the fact. It's a little like how in a word search, once the words are circled, they all look obvious, but it can be quite difficult to find them initially. And that's a scenario many orders of magnitude less complex.
great video, ano! i really like when something like this happens. last year i suggested something rather weird to a glitched pokémon category and it made the run way more consistent and maybe even faster through that consistency. sometimes random thoughts do have potential.
Yeah people get hyper fixated on the "Working strategy" that they don't want to consider any variance, but with a casual outside in mindset, a simple suggestion ends up being the piece that was completely missed.
@@MarioMastar I once suggested trying a different route to a speedrunner running a game (while streaming it) that was about a week old. He told me "I've been thinking about every possible route you can do in this game for countless hours and what I'm doing is clearly the fastest route!". He was very confident about it, subtly implying he knew what he was doing simply because he was actively speedrunning it...which to be fair paid off cause he got an early WR. However...about a month later, someone else got WR using the route I suggested...which then got used for at least a couple of years to come. It was...strangely vindicating in a way that's hard to explain! lol :P
This is why the internet is great. A whole group can miss something, but all it takes in one good view from the outside to demolish 10 hours of now wasted time for good
I love when this happens with speedruns, where there's a revolutionary change to a route that comes about not because a new glitch is discovered, but because someone suddenly remembers a glitch (or feature!) that's been known about for years/decades and realized it just hasn't been used in the right way
Rupee slides are beyond agonizingly slow. It takes hours to even notice that Link has changed his position to a visible degree, and many *many* more hours after that for him to get to anywhere useful
The rupee slide moves you at such a slow rate, you could literally beat the entire game casually before you finally slide through the gate.....twice. Link moves infintesimally slow. they only realized he was moving cause someone left thier game running on that animation to go to an event that lasted hours, then went to bed and when they woke up they saw the game was running and Link was somehow in a different position. Then they checked the position values and he's like moving 1/100000th of a unit per second due to the frame cycles. XD
9.5 hours! Due to "rupee sliding" Don't know if the video explains it, I just know of only one place speedrunners anywhere will spend 10 hours Basically, the "wow, got item!" animation of Link holding up an item is 1 frame short. For some reason link's actual position in space is moved by each frame (silly, really) and so each cycle of the animation (it's like a one-second animation) loses link's position very slightly, equal to the amount of displacement that last frame was meant to displace him by. Over the course of hours, this minuscule movement gets you places.
@@ferociousfeind8538 I wasn't actually aware of the 'why', so that was a very interesting look into how they tried to implement that animation. My only guess is that this method was somehow cheaper to do in-engine on the gamecube or wii, where every minor bit of performance or memory saving did help.
I love how I discover this video a few days after one about Wind Waker, where the community "relearned" how to use a ten years old glitch that nobody though would be usefull but ended up saving 15 minutes (1h05 to 45min'ish, so a rough 25% time save). Not as comparable as saving a whole ten hours, but still a big time save compared to the precedent time.
After seeing that video in OoT about how some memory manipulation in death mountain allowed for a faster any% run, I think TP is getting closer and closer to being another OoT where literally every rock's memory value will be checked for some stupid crazy wrong warp that takes you from Ordon to the Ganon fight and it'll be the least expected thing but something casual players do all the time, they just put the rock down before talking to Ilia or something like that. XD Still that's super cool to see! So many reasons to return to these beloved games (and not just... "skip playing most of the game" like the echoes of Wisdom "breakthrough" which is hardly impressive as it's just memory manipulation to skip to the end. Not actually playing the game, nor was it a random discovery like the OoT wrong warp, but deliberatly found by looking at memory addresses.... like anyone can hex edit...)
Reminds me of when I saw a timesave in ULTRAKILL's 1-4 that also made the level way easier and more consistent while I was verifying a middling run. They had used a strat that was easy for them but could save time in a way that, in hindsight, should've been fairly obvious and worked for some other levels too.
Hahaha, I love stories like this! If you want a fun one, look up the Bowie door. Golden Sun TLA speedrun was completely broken open... By the normal, bog-standard, entirely unspecial quick secondary exit from the dungeon. It was "discovered" when Bowie went through the door in a casual playthrough and Plexa was like Wait... Hold up a moment.... 😂
Heh, I love seeing stuff like this. Actually heard of a similar thing from Linkus7's videos for Wind Waker, that a long-overlooked glitch was recently found to make some nice improvements to the speedrun and make it go more smoothly. Really cool to hear of two similar situations cracking open speedruns in two Zelda games in a relatively short time apart from each other.
Almost. If we could get the master sword as human right from the start of the game, it might be possible to save two more transforms by combining all the twilights. Unfortunately, the way low% used to do it requires extra transforms to get bombs on a new file, and we don't have a good way to get the master sword at the start from a new file.
Just judging from my own experiences playing the game and more recent randomizer runs, I kinda was under the assumption that Ooccoo kinda... stopped being an option once you got to the Sky. After all, she DOES jump into the cannon and follow you there to remain in the shop for the rest of the game (at least, I don't immediately recall if that's an option in Hyrule Castle, and it certainly can't be used for PoT... and her goal for staying with you is about getting back to the Sky). Granted, I'm not sure how vanilla behavior works with leaving AG with the teleport option and then going into the Sky and not stopping to talk at the shop, given that's not possible in a casual playthrough. So in hindsight, I guess it makes sense that, given it's the final regular temple of the game, and Ooccoo disappears automatically upon beating a given temple regularly, that beating the Sky wouldn't delete the Jr in your inventory linked to AG, and thus ultimately allow you to use it to get back. NGL though I can't blame the runners for never thinking of it, since you also have to remember that there is a way to get out of the desert in general even if you figure out that the Ooccoo warp doesn't get invalidated from the different dungeon.
Its the same engine as wind waker. That's *why* back in time works, it was in Wind Waker, it was just useless back there. Maybe someday they'll figure out a way to do camera storage, but since there's no wind waker (obviously) I doubt it
It's so rad that things like this are still being found. Of course, my question is: does the new route still use this? Now, Low Transforms is 4 transforms... I guess I'll watch the speedrun to find out lol
@@anorakkis So, the only reason you need to have the bridge piece warped away from the bridge is to set the flag to let you warp it back, I assume? Otherwise, I assume you can't open the cave?
Yep. More specifically, we need the portal to warp it back to, which is unlocked right after it's warped away. Even with a rupee slide, the loading zone for the cave doesn't exist until the bridge has been warped away.
Not a TP runner, but I'd assume the entrance being on a different vertical axis makes it a lot harder to access before the entrance is revealed by the bridge piece. Getting the warp any earlier might also not help with any other point in the current possible routes, but I wouldn't know.
The bridge piece is there at the start of the game, and can only be warped away once we have the Bridge of Eldin portal. If we try to go there before either of those things, then the bridge is there, and the Cave of Ordeals loading zone doesn't exist while it's there.
Empty Lake Hylia - it's done by Game Overing in Plumm's Minigame, which loads Lake Hylia in the wrong state. It was only recently discovered that we can enter Lakebed in this state, which is now the fastest Any% route.
Why doesnt anyone explain what "low transform" mean? Ive looked everywhere and nobody explains what it means. Would be nice to add a little bit a context for people that don't already know what it is.
This is the second video of three that I've made on Low Transforms. The first video, ua-cam.com/video/6WtKBwTb8Lk/v-deo.html, gives an overview of the category. Basically, the goal is to go between Link's human and wolf forms as few times as possible.
@@anorakkis Makes me hope we'll see things like "Low Echos runs" in Echoes of Wisdom. Arbitrary categories like this really are what prolong the game's lifespan as even casual players can grasp the idea and try it themselves to see how well they can do.
This is often the problem with speedrunners. The most capable ones are often the least creative and least caring about the core game. A good example is 'ZFG where he knows every secret of Ocarina of Time, but you give him a ROMhack or something and he will never try to play the game as intended (unless it was built around speedruners like Gold Quest, which also does a nice job of making you care about every detail).
It is a bird that you can find in dungeons that can take you out of dungeons and has a progeny called Oocco that takes you back to where you used Ooccoo. It is Twilight Princess’s save progress in a dungeon feature, or as other would put it, the Farore’s Wind.
Speedrunners spent so long breaking the game and skipping mechanics that they legit forgot about the intended feature that allows you to return to deep in a dungeon.
Hehe sometimes people try so hard to find another Ocarina of time that they forget sometimes...the casual way is fastest. I even see ZFG sometimes mess up in his randos cause he forgets the casual strats since he's so used to using glitches to do everything. XD
@@MarioMastarSame stuff happens with dark souls speedrunners getting caught by mimicks.
They can beat every boss with no armor, fists only, abd avoiding all sources of damage, but they try to play the game normally and get eaten by the first mimick they come across.
Crippling overspecialization
They were waiting too long trying the rupee slide
I don't blame you for not thinking about Ooccoo. I try to forget their existence as well.
That's racist! (probably)
I wish I could do that
Well too bad you can’t forget about them
What the hell did they do💀
@@olaraongee8313 Exist in the Zelda universe
It’s funny to me that entering Cave of Ordeals of all places would somehow save time. The optional post-game combat gauntlet through a minimum of ten floors to meet the fairy is the “quick route”.
That’s the fun part of rupee slides, they’re so agonizingly slow that literally everything saves time in comparison
@@borisvanderhof8952a technique so fast you can fit two high level speedrun of any% into one longer rupee slide
@@VocalMabiMaple I wonder if any of the speed runners have actually done that? like, start a low transforms run, get to a rupee slide, and then just put that on the back burner while they open up another instance of the game and do an any% while waiting
In Low%, I've done various runs during rupee slides, from Any% to 100% Plus.
@@anorakkis That is so absurd, hell yeah.
I appreciate that getting a world record is entirely incidental to this video.
As it is with any major routing discovery like this, it wasn't really an impressive WR. No shade to the runner, but the raw fact of him saving 10 hours by not doing a pickup slide makes up for any skill expression possible. He could've done the full Cave of Ordeals and a fishing pond, and probably still get the WR by hours.
The competitive WR runs will pour in after this discovery has circulated and all the top runners practice the route. The one who deserves the most credit is Morgan, for discovering the route to skip a pickup slide.
@@nebulous9280 I feel like your take is unnecessarily dismissive. Getting a new world record by 9 hours is a fun thing to celebrate, even if the run wasn't very good and will get easily overtaken.
@@nebulous9280Oh fr? We aren’t stupid mate, js let people be happy and consider digging the stick out of your cheeks
@@Arkatoxnot to mention the set of people doing a 15 hour run is still small lol
@@ArkatoxRight? 0 reason for them to do that
"it was one of the worst performed runs i've done in recent years"
"at the end of the run i had saved 9 and a half hours"
i know the context but the absurdity of those two statements in such close proximity got me good lol
I remember warching an Untitled Goose Game speedrun and I asked "is there a reason you keep your head up until you're at the pit?" See, the very last part of the game has you take an item and drop it in a pit. Doing it with the goose's head down saves microseconds. But this person was waiting until they were there to lower the head even though you can do it while running. The person was like oh crap i could totally do that couldnt i?
I feel like the entire run became redundant soon after since people discovered you can clip through a fence and reach the final area like thirty seconds into the game, but hey.
I kinda like how speedruns are sometimes so focused on doing the min possible as fast as possible that runners just.. forget that sometimes the game has.. mechanics that exist.. like who would willingly go into an optional dungeon.. to go.. faster? Like on paper that sounds backwards but a warp is a warp
It's still wild to me that people forget Ooccoo is just Farores Wind for this game.
and ? is this comment just another OoT fanboy thing "ermmm.... look they took farores wind from OoT, TP sucks OoT is truly the best game ever actually". No, OoT was good awhile ago, OoT is shit nowadays, nothing aged well except a few music tracks, it was good awhile ago now its shit so stop sucking this game deep down your throat
Never needed either of them.
@@Perroden Yeah, I was not able to understand them as a kid and I still do not fully understand them because I have not played these games since then.
@@DarkerStudio-rt6ic That's a whole different comment from what they said
When I played OoC for the first time after already having TP under my belt and got farore’s wind: “oh it’s just oocoo. Neat.”
Thumbnail promised me someone overlooking Ooccoo, but the content is more about the Cave of Ordeals warp.
True, I think people are fixated on the Ooccoo thing to meme about it, but... the REAL find was the Cave of Ordeals Fairy warp allowing him to leave the desert in the first place.
This.
This is a typical situation of not being able to see the forest for all the trees. You concentrate so much on the details you forget the most basic stuff because you haven't used them in ages or ever.
" Is there a lore reason why we can't just use the Ooccoo to go back to the sky temple? am I stupid? "
"...No. "
Real and based
Officer Balls
@@charizardfan1017 BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Ah yes, my favorite type of speedrunning innovation: Someone Realizing There Is A Much Faster Way to Do Something That Literally Everyone Else Overlooked
Honestly this is why i dont think anything in speedrunning is useless. Everything can and will have a purpose in its time. I did a little speedrunning of a game but the worst part is a lot of the community pushes aside a lot of the “usesless” glitches. It seemed quite weird to me. There is one person on the other hand who always thinks twice about it and he found LOADS of extra routes im always surprised about what he pulls off with every small or large trick haha.
That's very good scientific thinking in action, always taking into account all information available to you even if it does not seem relevant at first!
It's just opposing mindsets. Creativity is risky, while repetition trains perfection. Most speedrunners aren't _creative_ thinkers, they are risk avoidant practitioners. They try to shave infintesmal times off of a deeply practiced series of actions.
Speedrunners are the sort of people who would have thrived on factory lines. Meanwhile, the amateur who hasn't programmed himself to think a certain way yet will look at a basic game mechanic that runners skip because it adds five seconds of dialogue and animation and remember "hey, isn't this an intended game mechanic that lets you shortcut half the thing?" and then innocently ask about it, and leave the runners mindboggled how they missed a ten hour timesave.
Reminds me of the so-called "useless clip" in smo that is now being used multiple times in the any% speedrun
I have seen a few videos on random speedrun stuff and always there's "this runner found a somewhat pointless glitch because it was inconsistent in the current run" and then someone finds a separate glitch later on that makes the earlier glitch more consistent.. like so many times it's less the first glitch was "useless" and more.. it needed something else to support it before people think about it
@@Xahnel Yeah, which unfortunately has the really negative reputation effect of making it sound like it's more about the execution than the discovery. Like you have glitch hunters and casual players doing all this impressive stuff, then you have some narc pop in out of nowhere to start grinding out a run that was already proven possible just to have thier name on the leaderboard, especially if the glitch is "easy to pull off and really was only a matter of negligence, not a risk/reward case that could "shave off minutes, but failure can cost those minutes back".
It kind of reminds me of something a runner said about Echoes of Wisdom. "5 hours is great, but until someone finds a wrong warp, it's not worth doing a run anymore." Like who put this guy's ego on a pedestal? Someone has to go out and find a way to cut the time in half so HE can have the legendary 2 hour run on the leaderboard. and all it was is some memory exploit that required them to read memory values to figure out which wrong warp to use to get to Null space. not even an accident, literally reading the code and abusing a bad memory read.... then letting Link fight the final boss for you cause Zelda can't do anything herself in this state. Frankly I get beating the game as quickly as possible is the goal of speedrunning, but it's a fruitless goal if the clock is all that matters, and not the puzzle pieces that build the path to that time. There's SO much more to Echoes of Wisdom that could lead to really cool runs and skips and such that would be great to watch or try, but the attitude of "Make it worth the speed runner's time" reminds me "If I wanted to watch a series of predefined inputs play the game, just make a TAS and be done with it. I do NOT care if a human pressed a sequence of inputs frame perfectly or a computer did the same thing cause in the end, it makes the same video and at least the TAS is a group effort in what it tries to accomplish. But there definitely are many MANY speedrunners that do know how to keep the runs entertaining and show respect to those who found the glitches, those who love the game casually, and don't act exclusively like a name on a leaderboard is the only reason to play the game.
In a similar vein, this video taught me you can restore the bridge of eldin lmao. When i played i just went the long way around every single time. It was very annoying and I figured I missed something but I didnt know where, so I never ended up working it out.
Oh wow that’s funny lmao
I played through the whole game not knowing about the cave of ordeals ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I just never went back to where the bridge piece was lol
If zelda speedruns have proven anything, it’s that someone will always find a crazy new discovery, given a little time
in this case, the crazy new discovery being a totally vanilla game mechanic everyone knows about, and used as intended
If they've proven anything, it's that Zelda games are built to last as long as the legends themselves. Just astounding how there's always a reason to go back to these fantastic games. and if people would stop bragging about item duping in Tears of the Kingdom (literally just hex editing with action replay at this point), we might see some really cool stuff in that game too. Same for Echoes of Wisdom if they drop the "wrong warp memory manipulation" elitism for a minute. I really love seeing people really show the potential for cool run throughs, strategies and such, and stuff like this, the min transforms run is exactly what keeping me coming back! Something a casual could do to still enjoy the game.
@@enorma29sort of. Speedrunning has a lot in common with ROP (Return-Oriented Programming), an exploit technique where all behaviors (intended and unintended) are considered "gadgets" that are "chained" together to create an exploit (e.g. privilege escalation).
Because the list of all behaviors is so incredibly long (and nearly all of them useless), and because the behaviors must be executed in a particular order to achieve something useful, ROP (like a speedrun) can be considered an extraordinarily complex exercise in pathfinding (identifying a sequence of techniques, intended or not, which achieve some goal, where each technique has its own associated cost function, such as how different speedrun techniques take more/less time or are less reliable).
While a good path seems obvious in retrospect, identifying that path is actually wildly complex in a way that is difficult to appreciate after the fact. It's a little like how in a word search, once the words are circled, they all look obvious, but it can be quite difficult to find them initially. And that's a scenario many orders of magnitude less complex.
great video, ano!
i really like when something like this happens. last year i suggested something rather weird to a glitched pokémon category and it made the run way more consistent and maybe even faster through that consistency. sometimes random thoughts do have potential.
Yeah people get hyper fixated on the "Working strategy" that they don't want to consider any variance, but with a casual outside in mindset, a simple suggestion ends up being the piece that was completely missed.
@@MarioMastar I once suggested trying a different route to a speedrunner running a game (while streaming it) that was about a week old. He told me "I've been thinking about every possible route you can do in this game for countless hours and what I'm doing is clearly the fastest route!". He was very confident about it, subtly implying he knew what he was doing simply because he was actively speedrunning it...which to be fair paid off cause he got an early WR.
However...about a month later, someone else got WR using the route I suggested...which then got used for at least a couple of years to come. It was...strangely vindicating in a way that's hard to explain! lol :P
This is why the internet is great. A whole group can miss something, but all it takes in one good view from the outside to demolish 10 hours of now wasted time for good
I love when this happens with speedruns, where there's a revolutionary change to a route that comes about not because a new glitch is discovered, but because someone suddenly remembers a glitch (or feature!) that's been known about for years/decades and realized it just hasn't been used in the right way
Perfect documentation of how smooth brained speed runners can be while confident they have an optimized a run
Gotta love the instant "nope" reply
nope
9.5 HOURS saved?
Somewhere, a TP dev is slamming their desk with their head.
"Why. Didn't. I. Check. That. The. Animation. Cycled. Right!?"
Rupee slides are beyond agonizingly slow. It takes hours to even notice that Link has changed his position to a visible degree, and many *many* more hours after that for him to get to anywhere useful
The rupee slide moves you at such a slow rate, you could literally beat the entire game casually before you finally slide through the gate.....twice. Link moves infintesimally slow. they only realized he was moving cause someone left thier game running on that animation to go to an event that lasted hours, then went to bed and when they woke up they saw the game was running and Link was somehow in a different position. Then they checked the position values and he's like moving 1/100000th of a unit per second due to the frame cycles. XD
9.5 hours! Due to "rupee sliding"
Don't know if the video explains it, I just know of only one place speedrunners anywhere will spend 10 hours
Basically, the "wow, got item!" animation of Link holding up an item is 1 frame short. For some reason link's actual position in space is moved by each frame (silly, really) and so each cycle of the animation (it's like a one-second animation) loses link's position very slightly, equal to the amount of displacement that last frame was meant to displace him by. Over the course of hours, this minuscule movement gets you places.
@@ferociousfeind8538 I wasn't actually aware of the 'why', so that was a very interesting look into how they tried to implement that animation. My only guess is that this method was somehow cheaper to do in-engine on the gamecube or wii, where every minor bit of performance or memory saving did help.
Beating a world record by 10 hours sure has to be some feeling.
That is an important lesson in life: you never stop learning new things! Unless you want to...
I love how I discover this video a few days after one about Wind Waker, where the community "relearned" how to use a ten years old glitch that nobody though would be usefull but ended up saving 15 minutes (1h05 to 45min'ish, so a rough 25% time save). Not as comparable as saving a whole ten hours, but still a big time save compared to the precedent time.
Imagine holding world record, then someone beats you by 9 entire hours despite making several mistakes
Honestly the fact that my favourite version of the Great Fairy in the series helps so much in a speed run makes me so glad.
After seeing that video in OoT about how some memory manipulation in death mountain allowed for a faster any% run, I think TP is getting closer and closer to being another OoT where literally every rock's memory value will be checked for some stupid crazy wrong warp that takes you from Ordon to the Ganon fight and it'll be the least expected thing but something casual players do all the time, they just put the rock down before talking to Ilia or something like that. XD Still that's super cool to see! So many reasons to return to these beloved games (and not just... "skip playing most of the game" like the echoes of Wisdom "breakthrough" which is hardly impressive as it's just memory manipulation to skip to the end. Not actually playing the game, nor was it a random discovery like the OoT wrong warp, but deliberatly found by looking at memory addresses.... like anyone can hex edit...)
Wind Waker also recently had a massive run improvement; Zelda speedrunning popping off.
Now if we can just find a way past the BotW Death Barrier...
As they say,
cant see the forest for the trees
Asking people who dont over think things is such a refreshing perspective
discoveries like this are what keep me so interested in speedruns
Reminds me of when I saw a timesave in ULTRAKILL's 1-4 that also made the level way easier and more consistent while I was verifying a middling run.
They had used a strat that was easy for them but could save time in a way that, in hindsight, should've been fairly obvious and worked for some other levels too.
"Oh my goodness, what an idea, why didn't I think of that?"
this goes hard
Hahaha, I love stories like this! If you want a fun one, look up the Bowie door. Golden Sun TLA speedrun was completely broken open... By the normal, bog-standard, entirely unspecial quick secondary exit from the dungeon.
It was "discovered" when Bowie went through the door in a casual playthrough and Plexa was like Wait... Hold up a moment.... 😂
dune fans be like: 4:23
So you did all this, and then the video from a month ago shows that it ADDS time back to the category? DAAAAAAMN.
Heh, I love seeing stuff like this. Actually heard of a similar thing from Linkus7's videos for Wind Waker, that a long-overlooked glitch was recently found to make some nice improvements to the speedrun and make it go more smoothly. Really cool to hear of two similar situations cracking open speedruns in two Zelda games in a relatively short time apart from each other.
this video hit the algorithm
Could you skip any transforms while getting the master sword as human like in the old low% route, the run would be much longer tho
Almost. If we could get the master sword as human right from the start of the game, it might be possible to save two more transforms by combining all the twilights. Unfortunately, the way low% used to do it requires extra transforms to get bombs on a new file, and we don't have a good way to get the master sword at the start from a new file.
I was also thinking if it's possible to skip the remaining poe slide too by going to AG as wolf at some point and get the poes?
Just judging from my own experiences playing the game and more recent randomizer runs, I kinda was under the assumption that Ooccoo kinda... stopped being an option once you got to the Sky. After all, she DOES jump into the cannon and follow you there to remain in the shop for the rest of the game (at least, I don't immediately recall if that's an option in Hyrule Castle, and it certainly can't be used for PoT... and her goal for staying with you is about getting back to the Sky). Granted, I'm not sure how vanilla behavior works with leaving AG with the teleport option and then going into the Sky and not stopping to talk at the shop, given that's not possible in a casual playthrough. So in hindsight, I guess it makes sense that, given it's the final regular temple of the game, and Ooccoo disappears automatically upon beating a given temple regularly, that beating the Sky wouldn't delete the Jr in your inventory linked to AG, and thus ultimately allow you to use it to get back.
NGL though I can't blame the runners for never thinking of it, since you also have to remember that there is a way to get out of the desert in general even if you figure out that the Ooccoo warp doesn't get invalidated from the different dungeon.
Sometimes you just have to go back to basics
I wonder if there's any glitches from previous games that work in twilight princess. Even if it's a different engine, programmers love to reuse code.
Its the same engine as wind waker. That's *why* back in time works, it was in Wind Waker, it was just useless back there.
Maybe someday they'll figure out a way to do camera storage, but since there's no wind waker (obviously) I doubt it
Morgan warp
It's so rad that things like this are still being found. Of course, my question is: does the new route still use this? Now, Low Transforms is 4 transforms... I guess I'll watch the speedrun to find out lol
Great video! Exciting update.
What happens if you try to go to the cave before the bridge piece gets warped away from it's original location and placed over the entrance?
The bridge piece is still there, blocking the cave.
@@anorakkis So, the only reason you need to have the bridge piece warped away from the bridge is to set the flag to let you warp it back, I assume? Otherwise, I assume you can't open the cave?
Yep. More specifically, we need the portal to warp it back to, which is unlocked right after it's warped away. Even with a rupee slide, the loading zone for the cave doesn't exist until the bridge has been warped away.
What happens if you try to go to cave of ordeals before the bridge is warped?
Not a TP runner, but I'd assume the entrance being on a different vertical axis makes it a lot harder to access before the entrance is revealed by the bridge piece. Getting the warp any earlier might also not help with any other point in the current possible routes, but I wouldn't know.
The bridge piece is there at the start of the game, and can only be warped away once we have the Bridge of Eldin portal. If we try to go there before either of those things, then the bridge is there, and the Cave of Ordeals loading zone doesn't exist while it's there.
@@anorakkisi wonder if the cave of ordeals loading zone goes somewhere else while the bridge is on it
4:44 What glitch was that?
Anyway, neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
Empty Lake Hylia - it's done by Game Overing in Plumm's Minigame, which loads Lake Hylia in the wrong state. It was only recently discovered that we can enter Lakebed in this state, which is now the fastest Any% route.
@@anorakkis Interesting! Thanks for the answer!
Accomplishment to this guy, finally finishing a speedrun of Twilight Princess that took 10 years. So close to the world record!
Local furry saves the day again
I never used the Ooccoo or Farore's Wind.
Is the bridge still blocking the cave of ordeals even if it hasn't been stolen yet?
Why doesnt anyone explain what "low transform" mean? Ive looked everywhere and nobody explains what it means.
Would be nice to add a little bit a context for people that don't already know what it is.
This is the second video of three that I've made on Low Transforms. The first video, ua-cam.com/video/6WtKBwTb8Lk/v-deo.html, gives an overview of the category.
Basically, the goal is to go between Link's human and wolf forms as few times as possible.
@@anorakkis Makes me hope we'll see things like "Low Echos runs" in Echoes of Wisdom. Arbitrary categories like this really are what prolong the game's lifespan as even casual players can grasp the idea and try it themselves to see how well they can do.
Hell yeah
We listen to all lol
I thought the title was going to be hyperbole. It isn't.
seychelles mention
Another common furry W
are you telling me you used to have to play 24 hours straight to complete a run
Not exactly. The rupee slides don't require any input from the runner, so before this there were 20 hours without playing for five hours playing.
Talking to fairies???
Interesting video. If you dont mind me asking, what do you do while waiting 10 hours for a pickup slide to happen?
Sleep, usually. Sometimes I'll do other runs.
just do a 100% run but dont go as fast as possible and read everything and stuff. relearnt he game fromt he ground up
0:43 if you do what as a wolf? i could hear what you said even after replaying it multiple times
I heard "digging"
Digging
Subtitles say “digging”
Hello!
Nope
alright send him to the dungeon.
git gud
This is often the problem with speedrunners. The most capable ones are often the least creative and least caring about the core game. A good example is 'ZFG where he knows every secret of Ocarina of Time, but you give him a ROMhack or something and he will never try to play the game as intended (unless it was built around speedruners like Gold Quest, which also does a nice job of making you care about every detail).
WTF even is an Ooccoo?
Bird. Mammal. Cult.
My best friend
Distilled Nightmare Fuel
It is a bird that you can find in dungeons that can take you out of dungeons and has a progeny called Oocco that takes you back to where you used Ooccoo. It is Twilight Princess’s save progress in a dungeon feature, or as other would put it, the Farore’s Wind.
Absolute time waste ngl
download DeArrow and check the title rq.