People saying that it was only a Mahayana Sutra thing, probably haven't read much of the Pali Canon. In the Digha Nikaya alone, we have mind-reading, licking both earlobes & his whole face with his super-long tongue, a protector deva appearing above his head, talking with a bunch of other devas. Elsewhere it's teleportation, multiple copies of himself, transforming his appearance, shining lights, emitting water & fire at the same time, taking a ladder to heaven...
Hi Brad. Here's an algorithm-boosting comment. Hope it works! :) But really, if Buddha didn't exist, and if Jesus didn't exist, then we need to ask: Who are the spiritual geniuses that invented them? They each warrant a massive, global following.
If I may put in: Cultural anthropology has it that religions are basically collective phenomena, resp. enterprises. They often crystallize around legendary figures, which, among other things, offer the advantage that they can conveniently function as screens for all kinds of projections (the legendary Sixth Patriarch, Huìnéng/Enô, seems to offer a neat example for synthesizing a role-model, based on different contemporary sources on masters and schools). The ethno-/anthropologist Clifford Geertz, for example, did some i.m.o. quite interesting studies on the topic of the social constitution of religious symbolic systems.
@@gunterappoldt3037 That's my anthropological reading too. Even if the Buddha is a collective phenomenon*, a collective projection into the past, maybe that was the genius of ancestors and Buddhas. *like UFOs could be a similar phenomenon, yes? I was kind of looking for the tie-in to UFOs mentioned at the start of this talk.
I think Buddha was a space person. But I agree it doesn't matter. Like, when some of the old stories seem goofy, my teacher likes to say, "well, it may not be true, which makes it more important!" That's one to chew on, too. Thanks, Brad!
personally whenever i enter period of doubt about the buddha or dharma, the teachings make themselves self evident to me, time and time again. there's always a new lesson of impermanence to be learned. and the more i try to cling to something, the more i suffer.
I think a more relevant and useful question is "Do I exist?" I like asking the questions, "Without my name, who am I? What am I? What is this? What is that?"
Oh, those are EASY! Do I exist? don't know Without my name, who am I? clean your bowl What am I? dry shit on a stick What is this? the cypress tree in the front yard What is that? who's asking? And there you have it!!! :)
Richard Carrier makes a pretty convincing case for a mythical Jesus. I read the Bible from start to finish during the pandemic and, ignoring the gospels, the absence of a historical Jesus (quotes, biography, etc.) in the rest of the NT is shocking. In 99% of Paul’s epistles Jesus is only a character who appears in visions & he’s very honest about this fact. Fascinating stuff.
@@ryanmilliken5950 true, but you’d think he’d talk at all about the historical Jesus in his Epistles or quote him from the gospels he was spreading when Jesus’s words would’ve helped prove Paul’s point.
@@Scott.Jones608 From my understanding, it probably wouldn't have. Paul's thing was that Jesus was a Devine being. Most historians don't think jesus would ever have made this claim.
If you meet the Buddha on the road kill him, right? That goes for historical Buddha, mythical Buddha, Expanded Universe Buddha, or that Buddha knockoff Rob Liefeld drew in the nineties.
Professor Gerald Larson used to say: "Buddhism begins with an act of FAITH---belief that something called Nirvana is possible after death..." (Hmmmm...Are there even any statements that ALL buddhists can agree upon?)🤔
Nirvana, or the cessation of dukkha, is possible before death. But indeed there is some faith involved, but it is conditional faith, because it is said that it can be tested.
Really should not care whether either one of these figures existed. I lived in the academic world for a long time. Buddha has a lot more to back up his existence - like you implied (I think with the 80 year career quote). The Jesus as a man is very difficult; plus, it does not help that the Jesus mythos is reflective and almost follows the plot lines and narratives of other savior narratives (People will shall I say it crucify me for pointing this out). However, that is NOT my point. We really shouldn’t care at this point and it doesn’t help our practices and relations on either side of the aisle. Shoot there are aisles! It’s a religion supermarket out there. I liked how you tied that Buddha’s authority was not tied to a supernatural being. This is also important to me.
Touché on the point about scholarship matching trends; history as more about à la mode fodder for the maw of the chattering classes and less about young Brad's assumptions of historical truth.
when you said give it a like and a thumbs up the button flared up with colors. they really treat us like npc's and suggest everything to break our will
David Fitzgerald made the point at the GCRR conference for the historical Jesus that it seems to be the norm for founders of great religions to be mythical.
Are we not looking for a path through life to give us direction and meaning and perhaps some comfort? It simple and complicated, it's hidden and obvious, it confuses and enlightens. Do we need answers or do we need compassion and empathy for everything?
The problem with Buddha's non-existence is what it means for the ritual of 'taking refuge' where you take refuge in the three jewels...the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha. It would be better to take refuge in the Practice, the Dharma and the Sangha. I see this as a kid's tricycle...the big wheel is the practice (zazen) and the two smaller wheels at the back of the bike are the Dharma and the Sangha.
Other than king and emperors, evidence for the existence of Buddha is as good as it gets for ancient India. But I agree to the point that it matters less than religions like Christianity.
Love you brad, the Crusades however? If you look at the real history of it and not the NPR version. The Crusades were actually a defensive War if it were not for the Crusades we would probably be in Islamic civilization. It was about the Holy Land, but it was also very very defensive that would have been a juggernaut stronghold into Europe
I disagree that Christianity would fall apart without a historical Jesus. They could simply revert to the original Christianity: where Jesus's sacrifice was made in the heavens.
Yup and today we call it cinema or science fiction....Some great films out there that'll leave an impact...Are the characters real? No You can find as many people who say they existed as you'll find learned people who'll say no....Stick to your own gut feeling
Before asking the question "did Buddha exist", I have asked myself the question "does Buddhism exist". It's actually not an easy question to answer. If you look at the different strands of Buddhism, you can get into wildly different myths about the world. It's a bit like the question "does God exist". That one is actually quite straightforward to answer, as you can just respond by "I don't understand the question, please define 'God' first". It goes rapidly downhill from there... The question "does Buddhism exist" takes a bit more effort to answer, as there is actually something to grasp.
For me, Buddha is the original nature of all so there not being a Buddha born and lived as a person is irrelevant. My mother would say you are going to hell for doubting baby Jesus so we do not have this discussion. haha
Aye. You can still practice Buddhism with a fictional Siddhārtha, but most modern Christianity kinda hinges on Yeshua being "real". Interestingly, i suspect you can still have Islam if Muhammad didn't actually exist.
There is a book called Did Mohammed Exist. When I was reading it outside of my apartment, I put it in a plain unmarked cover just in case the title of the book triggered someone.
History is written by the victors. :) I think him and Jesus both existed, but there's no real reason why, just got told enough times that it became part of me I guess. :)
Buddha died by eating meat. I tend to like the Tibetan idea of the Darmakaya Buddha and think the historical Buddha is no more real than him. But what i really struggle with is the existence or non existence of the American Bigfoots. That does my head in way more than the existence or non existence of Buddha`s . As far as Christ is concerned I am a big NO but love going to Church and Praying to him. A bit like Leonard Cohen`s "Hallelujah"
I used to be really scared that Big Foot would break my living room window and grab me when I was watching TV. Seriously! I saw a movie where he did that and it really spooked me. I was about 11 years old at the time. Probably too old for such a thing to be scary...
Brad I had the same type of fear, since we are close to the same age it may have been from a similar movie/show. My parents took me to see “The Bogey Creek Monster” and it had a scene where a guy was on the toilet and the big foot type creature busted his hand through the window and grabbed him lol. Messed me up when I got home. That’s if my historical account of the movie is correct : )
People saying that it was only a Mahayana Sutra thing, probably haven't read much of the Pali Canon. In the Digha Nikaya alone, we have mind-reading, licking both earlobes & his whole face with his super-long tongue, a protector deva appearing above his head, talking with a bunch of other devas. Elsewhere it's teleportation, multiple copies of himself, transforming his appearance, shining lights, emitting water & fire at the same time, taking a ladder to heaven...
Hi Brad. Here's an algorithm-boosting comment. Hope it works! :)
But really, if Buddha didn't exist, and if Jesus didn't exist, then we need to ask: Who are the spiritual geniuses that invented them? They each warrant a massive, global following.
If I may put in: Cultural anthropology has it that religions are basically collective phenomena, resp. enterprises. They often crystallize around legendary figures, which, among other things, offer the advantage that they can conveniently function as screens for all kinds of projections (the legendary Sixth Patriarch, Huìnéng/Enô, seems to offer a neat example for synthesizing a role-model, based on different contemporary sources on masters and schools). The ethno-/anthropologist Clifford Geertz, for example, did some i.m.o. quite interesting studies on the topic of the social constitution of religious symbolic systems.
@@gunterappoldt3037
I find that very few people are interested in deconstructing their myths.
@@gunterappoldt3037 That's my anthropological reading too. Even if the Buddha is a collective phenomenon*, a collective projection into the past, maybe that was the genius of ancestors and Buddhas.
*like UFOs could be a similar phenomenon, yes? I was kind of looking for the tie-in to UFOs mentioned at the start of this talk.
I think Buddha was a space person. But I agree it doesn't matter. Like, when some of the old stories seem goofy, my teacher likes to say, "well, it may not be true, which makes it more important!" That's one to chew on, too. Thanks, Brad!
personally whenever i enter period of doubt about the buddha or dharma, the teachings make themselves self evident to me, time and time again. there's always a new lesson of impermanence to be learned. and the more i try to cling to something, the more i suffer.
I think a more relevant and useful question is "Do I exist?" I like asking the questions, "Without my name, who am I? What am I? What is this? What is that?"
Oh, those are EASY!
Do I exist? don't know
Without my name, who am I? clean your bowl
What am I? dry shit on a stick
What is this? the cypress tree in the front yard
What is that? who's asking?
And there you have it!!! :)
@@davidzoot
Ah, I love the stink of zen late in the night.
If he didn’t exist then he sure does now!
Happy belated birthday, Adrian!
Damn typos. 😂
Richard Carrier makes a pretty convincing case for a mythical Jesus. I read the Bible from start to finish during the pandemic and, ignoring the gospels, the absence of a historical Jesus (quotes, biography, etc.) in the rest of the NT is shocking. In 99% of Paul’s epistles Jesus is only a character who appears in visions & he’s very honest about this fact. Fascinating stuff.
It is interesting.
Paul never claimed to have met Jesus though so that's not suprising. The story of Jesus existed prior to Paul saying anything about him.
Anyone up for the "Jesus traveled to/lived in India" hypothesis? (Don't knock it unless you've read Abbot George Burke sincerely...)
@@ryanmilliken5950 true, but you’d think he’d talk at all about the historical Jesus in his Epistles or quote him from the gospels he was spreading when Jesus’s words would’ve helped prove Paul’s point.
@@Scott.Jones608 From my understanding, it probably wouldn't have. Paul's thing was that Jesus was a Devine being. Most historians don't think jesus would ever have made this claim.
Loved this video.
If you meet the Buddha on the road kill him, right? That goes for historical Buddha, mythical Buddha, Expanded Universe Buddha, or that Buddha knockoff Rob Liefeld drew in the nineties.
Professor Gerald Larson used to say: "Buddhism begins with an act of FAITH---belief that something called Nirvana is possible after death..."
(Hmmmm...Are there even any statements that ALL buddhists can agree upon?)🤔
Nirvana, or the cessation of dukkha, is possible before death. But indeed there is some faith involved, but it is conditional faith, because it is said that it can be tested.
Really should not care whether either one of these figures existed. I lived in the academic world for a long time. Buddha has a lot more to back up his existence - like you implied (I think with the 80 year career quote). The Jesus as a man is very difficult; plus, it does not help that the Jesus mythos is reflective and almost follows the plot lines and narratives of other savior narratives (People will shall I say it crucify me for pointing this out). However, that is NOT my point. We really shouldn’t care at this point and it doesn’t help our practices and relations on either side of the aisle. Shoot there are aisles! It’s a religion supermarket out there. I liked how you tied that Buddha’s authority was not tied to a supernatural being. This is also important to me.
I believe Ziggy's answer to this question. Very wise.
Touché on the point about scholarship matching trends; history as more about à la mode fodder for the maw of the chattering classes and less about young Brad's assumptions of historical truth.
when you said give it a like and a thumbs up the button flared up with colors. they really treat us like npc's and suggest everything to break our will
the real question is “does Brad Warner exist?”
I could spend a lifetime contemplating that.
David Fitzgerald made the point at the GCRR conference for the historical Jesus that it seems to be the norm for founders of great religions to be mythical.
Does Ziggy have buddha nature?
mu
@@davidzoot
If Brad is unavailable, you can bow to Ziggy.
Woof!
🐶Yes!
OVER TWO MILLENNIA OF ENLIGHTENED MASTERS PROVE BUDDHA TO BE TRUE
The thumbnail and the title have a very disconnecting connection.
I take it this way: The Buddha of Mahayana is the myth, the Buddha of Theravada was the real person who became a myth.
Are we not looking for a path through life to give us direction and meaning and perhaps some comfort? It simple and complicated, it's hidden and obvious, it confuses and enlightens. Do we need answers or do we need compassion and empathy for everything?
Really starts at 3:45
The problem with Buddha's non-existence is what it means for the ritual of 'taking refuge' where you take refuge in the three jewels...the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha.
It would be better to take refuge in the Practice, the Dharma and the Sangha.
I see this as a kid's tricycle...the big wheel is the practice (zazen) and the two smaller wheels at the back of the bike are the Dharma and the Sangha.
I wonder if Bodhidharma existed? And if so, I wonder what he originally taught?
There's a book called Tracking Bodhidharma. I've got it but it's been years since I looked at it.
@@HardcoreZen That looks super interesting. I might have to order it.
@@HardcoreZen Also, you should do a video on Nagarjuna sometime.
Other than king and emperors, evidence for the existence of Buddha is as good as it gets for ancient India. But I agree to the point that it matters less than religions like Christianity.
I think both Jesus and Buddha existed in their own time, space, and audience.
Just here for the algorithm.
"The Historical Buddha" by H.W. Schumann is a great resource.
I read that ages ago.
I think that the historical Buddha existed, but even if he didn't, Buddhism exists. What I wonder about is did Bizarro Buddha exist?
Oh for sure!
@@HardcoreZen I thought so. I think you were channeling him for a minute there.
It doesnt matter if he existed or not in my opinion
Here's a comment: define "exist" ( ;
Yeah!
Define "doesn't exist".
@@ryanmilliken5950 Is there a difference?
Did Confucius exist?
Love you brad, the Crusades however? If you look at the real history of it and not the NPR version. The Crusades were actually a defensive War if it were not for the Crusades we would probably be in Islamic civilization. It was about the Holy Land, but it was also very very defensive that would have been a juggernaut stronghold into Europe
The truth s always complicated.
I disagree that Christianity would fall apart without a historical Jesus. They could simply revert to the original Christianity: where Jesus's sacrifice was made in the heavens.
Does reality even exist? Or is this existence a controlled hallucination?
Ancient people made up stories and characters to express philosophical, psychological, etc ideas.
Yup and today we call it cinema or science fiction....Some great films out there that'll leave an impact...Are the characters real? No
You can find as many people who say they existed as you'll find learned people who'll say no....Stick to your own gut feeling
I exzit that's is A big thing 🤪
I honestly don’t know why it matters if Jesus existed either. I think a lot of Christians fetishize the character and ignore the teachings.
Do we exist
We comment...therefore we exist.
I'm certain YOU do....but I have doubts about me...
@@adamdacevedo What is it that has doubts?
@@Teller3448 “The Master Who Makes The Grass Green….”(?)
Here's another one: Care to do a review of Kerouac's Dharma bums?
I'd need to read it first...
@@HardcoreZen It’s not long. Audio version is only 7 hours long. Some references to old Chinese and Japanese zen masters. Good read.
I think they both did.
Before asking the question "did Buddha exist", I have asked myself the question "does Buddhism exist". It's actually not an easy question to answer. If you look at the different strands of Buddhism, you can get into wildly different myths about the world. It's a bit like the question "does God exist". That one is actually quite straightforward to answer, as you can just respond by "I don't understand the question, please define 'God' first". It goes rapidly downhill from there... The question "does Buddhism exist" takes a bit more effort to answer, as there is actually something to grasp.
For me, Buddha is the original nature of all so there not being a Buddha born and lived as a person is irrelevant. My mother would say you are going to hell for doubting baby Jesus so we do not have this discussion. haha
I can't believe the dilution of truth would come down by THIS height 🤣!!
And anyways, Buddha has very little to do with this Soto Zen tradition.
Aye. You can still practice Buddhism with a fictional Siddhārtha, but most modern Christianity kinda hinges on Yeshua being "real". Interestingly, i suspect you can still have Islam if Muhammad didn't actually exist.
There is a book called Did Mohammed Exist. When I was reading it outside of my apartment, I put it in a plain unmarked cover just in case the title of the book triggered someone.
History is written by the victors. :)
I think him and Jesus both existed, but there's no real reason why, just got told enough times that it became part of me I guess. :)
Comment
I agree to the point that buddha existed and he was a person without any supernatural power.
Buddha died by eating meat. I tend to like the Tibetan idea of the Darmakaya Buddha and think the historical Buddha is no more real than him. But what i really struggle with is the existence or non existence of the American Bigfoots. That does my head in way more than the existence or non existence of Buddha`s . As far as Christ is concerned I am a big NO but love going to Church and Praying to him. A bit like Leonard Cohen`s "Hallelujah"
interesting
intriguing
I used to be really scared that Big Foot would break my living room window and grab me when I was watching TV. Seriously! I saw a movie where he did that and it really spooked me. I was about 11 years old at the time. Probably too old for such a thing to be scary...
Damn! I thought it was mushrooms that he ate.
Brad I had the same type of fear, since we are close to the same age it may have been from a similar movie/show. My parents took me to see “The Bogey Creek Monster” and it had a scene where a guy was on the toilet and the big foot type creature busted his hand through the window and grabbed him lol. Messed me up when I got home. That’s if my historical account of the movie is correct : )