Thought I had heard it all… nope, just learned something new (electrical tape to mimic fletching)… love it… excited to go back through my tunes (perfect arrow flight is so satisfying)…. and will definitely pass this on (and give you credit)… thank you!
Electrical tape you psycho. Love it. I'll try it next time. Never thought it would make enough of a difference with my skill level. But every bit helps. Great intel.
Your points about the fletching weight makes good sense, and your explanation of tuning the bow/arrow is very easy to follow and understand. Thank you for sharing this valuable info.
I have discussed this with compound bow guys and they look at me like I came from another world. “Man just use the spine chart!”, they say. It is amazing how many hunters shoot at animals and don’t understand arrow/bow dynamics. I hunt both with a longbow and compound and my early trad days helps me. What also is nice about a compound is I have the option of adjusting poundage on the bow to tune the bow to the arrow rather than the arrow to the bow.
That was a very good explanation of arrow tuning. All things considered, if your release is not nearly the same every time it can change all of this, Got to have the fundamentals down and backtension release. Great video
Thanks for this video. I did some tuning as you suggested and my nocks were all high at any range. I started at 5 yards and when they were totally correct nock wise. I moved back all the way to 25 yards and dead on! Left to right corrected to by getting more consistent follow through which is something I have neglected over the years. Moving my hand straight back to complete follow through has really helped.
100% agree ... all the high FOC nonsense is getting ridiculous. That crowd always brings up Spears and javelins which do not have broadheads out in front acting as wings. I have had a lot better arrow flight since I went back to shooting normal FOC on my arrows. And oh by the way I'm not having any trouble with penetration either. We have forgotten so much about archery in these latter days. KE is made up of two components, speed and mass..... We don't forsake one and just worry about the other. A good balance is always best.... No matter how much fairy dust you think you have.
KE is not this important, KM is more important when the arrow strikes. Something light and very fast will be much slower at the time of impact. At time of impact residual speed and mass counts. Higher FOC is a way to enhance penetration. Not this much of an issue on deer, but on larger critters. And generally, most wooden or aluminum arrows have enough mass that this is not an issue. The issue arose when the "more speed compound crowd" shot lighter and lighter, but always slightly faster arrows. Some of these old hunting videos are hard to watch. A superfast arrow often got them 1/4 shaft penetration on a deer. From a 60#+ bow. While a heavier shaft would have gotten an easy passthrough. FOC above 19% is the bone splitting threshold. Arrows with 20-22% FOC are easy to build and very stable in flight and pack a woopin. Very few people need 30% FOC. These are for the big 5 and waterbuffalo hunters. But just using 100 and 125 grain points will only work with enough mass in the arrow. And a lot of carbons are borderline for that. In addition, a lot of hunters drop bow weight due to age and higher KM is better for them.
@@rsengineering KE is from speed and mass. Both are important, a heavy object moving very slow may not penetrate as far as a slightly less heavy object moving faster. each bow will have a sweet range and ALL bows are Springs and will have a peak KE.
@@davetoms63 What counts is what arrives at the target, not at release of the arrow. KM is also from speed and mass... A heavy very slow object with a sharp cutting point will outpenetrate the lighter and faster object. Mass is retained, speed is not. Speed will go down exponentially. Mass stays. Especially in fluids or fluid like mediums.
You should do a video on how to tune for feather clearance. I can’t find any videos really talking about that. Plus is sucks when you think you’ve got a perfect tune then after a while that one feather is worn out.
thanks for the yardages, The one thing with most tuning vids is a lack of yardages to work from. but mostly the difference from what I do is I don't bare shaft. I build the arrow less the tip. Shoot it with just the taper cut into the tip until the arrow shoots stiff then add the point . If it's week I can remove the point shorten and continue or got to a different weight tip. beyond that it much the same process . Good to know I'm not to far off in what I do.
Sparky elven. If you think you're not far off, grab one arrow that you tuned, strip the feathers and shoot it bare (with electrical tape). See it for yourself how good (or badly tuned) it flies at 30 yards. The proof is in the pudding, my friend.
Do you shoot your bow as straight up/down as possible while bareshafting or keep the natural cant that i usually shoot with (1-2 o’clock cant). Also, any info on tuning ilf? I’ve had nothing but problems with the ilf i have even if tillered equal, going off equal, doesnt seem to stay consistant. Thanks!
Tuning question - I've never had trouble tuning bare shaft arrows that don't have a wrap. But now I'm trying to bare shaft with a wrap because I want to shoot a wrap on these new arrows. I have a reflex deflex longbow and it's cut about 1/8" out of center. My draw length is about 26" and the bow is 50# @26" . I'm trying to tune a gold tip traditional 500 spine with 300 grains up front. No matter what length I try I can't get these arrow to show anything other than stiff when I shoot. I'm a left handed shooter and I'm getting tail left flight every time. I even tried adding more than 300 grains up front and still got the same result. I've tuned GT traditional 500s out of this same bow without a wrap and they tuned perfect at 27". The only other thing different is that my old string was 12 strands of D97 and I made a new one with 14 strands of D97 because it fits my GT nocks better. According to physics I would expect that somewhere between 27 to 28 or maybe 28.5" the arrow should tune. I even tried a 29.5" arrow with 300 up front and still got stiff spine results. I'm holding the bow vertical and doing my best to get a clean release every time. Do you have any idea what I'm doing wrong or what the problem could be? Do you think I would need to move to a 600 spine? 600 seems like it should be too weak out of a 50# bow with 300 up front. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I can't figure it out.
You will never get a good tune with that much FOC on a carbon arrow. 200 ont the tip max and it will tune great. Reload and try again. Dont forget to represent the fletch with the tape
@@tttarchery Thanks. I think the problem was that my nock was too tight on the string. I put my old string back on the bow and was able to get it to tune well at 28". I understand that adding that much front of center weight will mess with the trajectory of the arrow but I'm a bowhunter and I only shoot 20 yards and in so I'm not worried about it. I like having 300 grains up front for penetration.
For a quiet forgiving hunting bow do you reccomend a black widow pch 60" or a toelke whip 10x 64-68" ? Struggling picking between the two, would be used for whitetail outta a ground blind while sitting /treestand. Thank you.
I used to always have nock high readings until messing around with my finger pressure on the string. I shoot split and noticed too much string pressure on my top finger cause a nock high flight.
Hey Joel, couple words on that subject. First, there is a method of developing a hook for your hand. Everyones hook is different because our fingers are not all the same length relationally. This method can only be executed with a tab. Most gloves do not allow for proper hook. Second if we know that our hook is optimal, if the bow is sensitive to finger pressure adjustments, it either has steep string angle (long draw, short bow), its not laser straight, or it needs a tiller adjustment.
@@tttarchery I do notice my 62" longbow is way less finicky than my 60" static tip recurve. 29" draw. Can you direct me to a resource towards developing a better hook? Thanks!
I always tune my arrow in a similar way, but my form is still so erratic that over 10 yard I get unreadable results. once i literally blown up the paper tune stander :D
Hi great video! i am now bareshaft tuning my arrows. But here's the thing: i pull the string with my right hand, but place my arrow also on the right side of my bow (it's a double recurved horsebow). Does that mean that for me all is inverted?
If I have a bare shaft that is hitting dead straight at 10 yds but is impacting the target 4 inches to the right of where I’m aiming , what’s my problem? Thanks for the video
I'm a little late to the game, but I'm wonderig what would you advise for string walkers? I find that my nocking point tune is wildly different depending if I'm shooting a 5, 10 or 15yd crawl. I paper tune at 5 yards with a 15 yard crawl, but said string walk is going to vary wildly depending on distance whenever I'm on range or sump shooting
Always tune for your average distance or the distance you feel you need to be most accurate. Longer riser shorter limbs helps with a string walking setup. You will want to setup the bow possibly with a longer arrow so you dont have such extreme crawls. Its the struggle everyone has to deal with when it comes to string walking. The longer the bow the better.
You would want to start by tuning the crawl that is the average or most common shot distance. So for say a 30 yard 3D course I would probably tune my 26-27 yard crawl, see how 30 goes and you might have to tune to a 28 or more as the further the distance the more tune matters.
Interesting point on too much foc. What range would you say I should keep it under / not worry about too much foc if I'm under say 20%? I get a lot of low right (off group from the fletched arrows) with the bare shaft with my constantly tinkered ilf setup and I never bothered to correct that unless I have to hunt with it. How picky are you personally with arrow tuning say with a practice bow off-season not competing or hunting just form practice and keeping up the muscle memory?
Hey Dan for most arrows i use a simple rule not much over 200 total grains on the tip thats a really good flying shaft. If you get into super heavy aluminum you maybe can go more. Wood arrows do not like heavy tips at all, max 160 grain for best accuracy. Personally i dont give myself any allowance for an untuned bow any time of the year. I work the tune until i can pull a bareshaft out and shoot it with the fletched at any distance. ILF adds a whole other complication to the tuning, and maybe that should be for another video.
If you start at 30 and you dont have a massive bail expect to completely miss the target possibly bend or break arrow on the first shot. Other than that you can get a false positive shooting that far away if the arrow is too far out of tune.
Hey Richard its always good to check that all arrows are matching for spine and weight. Carbon, especially cheap carbon can have quite a variance. If you dont have a way to confirm, then make 2-3 bareshafts to ensure that you are getting a good representation of the batch. Always cut your arrows same length. If one is so far off it shoots bad cull it from the herd or switch to better quality arrows.
Found this video and can't thank you enough, I thought bare-shaft arrow tuning was beyond me until I watched this. Amazingly well presented.
Thought I had heard it all… nope, just learned something new (electrical tape to mimic fletching)… love it… excited to go back through my tunes (perfect arrow flight is so satisfying)…. and will definitely pass this on (and give you credit)… thank you!
And I’m saving this video… one of the best explanations of bare shaft tuning on UA-cam.
Electrical tape you psycho. Love it. I'll try it next time. Never thought it would make enough of a difference with my skill level. But every bit helps. Great intel.
.. love the buckles, very subtle flex :D
Your points about the fletching weight makes good sense, and your explanation of tuning the bow/arrow is very easy to follow and understand. Thank you for sharing this valuable info.
I have discussed this with compound bow guys and they look at me like I came from another world.
“Man just use the spine chart!”, they say.
It is amazing how many hunters shoot at animals and don’t understand arrow/bow dynamics.
I hunt both with a longbow and compound and my early trad days helps me.
What also is nice about a compound is I have the option of adjusting poundage on the bow to tune the bow to the arrow rather than the arrow to the bow.
That was a very good explanation of arrow tuning. All things considered, if your release is not nearly the same every time it can change all of this, Got to have the fundamentals down and backtension release. Great video
Thanks for this video. I did some tuning as you suggested and my nocks were all high at any range. I started at 5 yards and when they were totally correct nock wise. I moved back all the way to 25 yards and dead on! Left to right corrected to by getting more consistent follow through which is something I have neglected over the years. Moving my hand straight back to complete follow through has really helped.
Best video on tuning I’ve ever come across. Preciate it Trevor. Still fightin with those Easton Carbon Legacy shafts.
Explained very well, Thanks for the detailed video 👍
Thanks you very much for the great information! Excellent video on bare shaft tuning.
Awesome video, gonna help out a lot of archers. Thank you Trevor
Thank you. Will give it a go
100% agree ... all the high FOC nonsense is getting ridiculous. That crowd always brings up Spears and javelins which do not have broadheads out in front acting as wings. I have had a lot better arrow flight since I went back to shooting normal FOC on my arrows. And oh by the way I'm not having any trouble with penetration either. We have forgotten so much about archery in these latter days. KE is made up of two components, speed and mass..... We don't forsake one and just worry about the other. A good balance is always best.... No matter how much fairy dust you think you have.
KE is not this important, KM is more important when the arrow strikes. Something light and very fast will be much slower at the time of impact. At time of impact residual speed and mass counts. Higher FOC is a way to enhance penetration. Not this much of an issue on deer, but on larger critters. And generally, most wooden or aluminum arrows have enough mass that this is not an issue. The issue arose when the "more speed compound crowd" shot lighter and lighter, but always slightly faster arrows. Some of these old hunting videos are hard to watch. A superfast arrow often got them 1/4 shaft penetration on a deer. From a 60#+ bow. While a heavier shaft would have gotten an easy passthrough.
FOC above 19% is the bone splitting threshold. Arrows with 20-22% FOC are easy to build and very stable in flight and pack a woopin.
Very few people need 30% FOC. These are for the big 5 and waterbuffalo hunters. But just using 100 and 125 grain points will only work with enough mass in the arrow. And a lot of carbons are borderline for that. In addition, a lot of hunters drop bow weight due to age and higher KM is better for them.
@@rsengineering KE is from speed and mass. Both are important, a heavy object moving very slow may not penetrate as far as a slightly less heavy object moving faster. each bow will have a sweet range and ALL bows are Springs and will have a peak KE.
@@davetoms63 What counts is what arrives at the target, not at release of the arrow. KM is also from speed and mass... A heavy very slow object with a sharp cutting point will outpenetrate the lighter and faster object. Mass is retained, speed is not.
Speed will go down exponentially. Mass stays. Especially in fluids or fluid like mediums.
Dang I never thought of adding the tape
very good information, thank you for making this video
Brilliant
Sounds simple. Stay safe my friend. God bless you 🙏.
That’s pretty good stuff Bub
Nice one
Thank you. Great video and well explained. I do have a ?, do you incorporate Nock-tuning into this process for ea arrow?
You should do a video on how to tune for feather clearance. I can’t find any videos really talking about that. Plus is sucks when you think you’ve got a perfect tune then after a while that one feather is worn out.
Good video
thanks for the yardages, The one thing with most tuning vids is a lack of yardages to work from. but mostly the difference from what I do is I don't bare shaft. I build the arrow less the tip. Shoot it with just the taper cut into the tip until the arrow shoots stiff then add the point . If it's week I can remove the point shorten and continue or got to a different weight tip. beyond that it much the same process . Good to know I'm not to far off in what I do.
Sparky elven. If you think you're not far off, grab one arrow that you tuned, strip the feathers and shoot it bare (with electrical tape). See it for yourself how good (or badly tuned) it flies at 30 yards. The proof is in the pudding, my friend.
Do you shoot your bow as straight up/down as possible while bareshafting or keep the natural cant that i usually shoot with (1-2 o’clock cant). Also, any info on tuning ilf? I’ve had nothing but problems with the ilf i have even if tillered equal, going off equal, doesnt seem to stay consistant. Thanks!
Very well explained , I do have a question as to what type of target is best for tuning your arrow?
Anything solid like a 3D or layered foam. Bag targets will not show a true arrow position
Thanks so much! I just checked my tune...my nock was too low and my arrows were too stiff...
Can you talk about ILF tiller adjustment and the bare shaft tuning steps.?
Hey Bryce good question will put that on the list for a future video.
Tuning question - I've never had trouble tuning bare shaft arrows that don't have a wrap. But now I'm trying to bare shaft with a wrap because I want to shoot a wrap on these new arrows. I have a reflex deflex longbow and it's cut about 1/8" out of center. My draw length is about 26" and the bow is 50# @26" . I'm trying to tune a gold tip traditional 500 spine with 300 grains up front. No matter what length I try I can't get these arrow to show anything other than stiff when I shoot. I'm a left handed shooter and I'm getting tail left flight every time. I even tried adding more than 300 grains up front and still got the same result. I've tuned GT traditional 500s out of this same bow without a wrap and they tuned perfect at 27". The only other thing different is that my old string was 12 strands of D97 and I made a new one with 14 strands of D97 because it fits my GT nocks better. According to physics I would expect that somewhere between 27 to 28 or maybe 28.5" the arrow should tune. I even tried a 29.5" arrow with 300 up front and still got stiff spine results. I'm holding the bow vertical and doing my best to get a clean release every time. Do you have any idea what I'm doing wrong or what the problem could be? Do you think I would need to move to a 600 spine? 600 seems like it should be too weak out of a 50# bow with 300 up front. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I can't figure it out.
You will never get a good tune with that much FOC on a carbon arrow. 200 ont the tip max and it will tune great. Reload and try again. Dont forget to represent the fletch with the tape
@@tttarchery Thanks. I think the problem was that my nock was too tight on the string. I put my old string back on the bow and was able to get it to tune well at 28". I understand that adding that much front of center weight will mess with the trajectory of the arrow but I'm a bowhunter and I only shoot 20 yards and in so I'm not worried about it. I like having 300 grains up front for penetration.
For a quiet forgiving hunting bow do you reccomend a black widow pch 60" or a toelke whip 10x 64-68" ? Struggling picking between the two, would be used for whitetail outta a ground blind while sitting /treestand.
Thank you.
Neither. Pretty long for treestands. Depends really on your draw length/body length.
Cant go wrong with either those are my two favorite bows!!!
I used to always have nock high readings until messing around with my finger pressure on the string. I shoot split and noticed too much string pressure on my top finger cause a nock high flight.
The finger pressure is really kicking my tail!!
Hey Joel, couple words on that subject. First, there is a method of developing a hook for your hand. Everyones hook is different because our fingers are not all the same length relationally. This method can only be executed with a tab. Most gloves do not allow for proper hook.
Second if we know that our hook is optimal, if the bow is sensitive to finger pressure adjustments, it either has steep string angle (long draw, short bow), its not laser straight, or it needs a tiller adjustment.
@@tttarchery I do notice my 62" longbow is way less finicky than my 60" static tip recurve. 29" draw. Can you direct me to a resource towards developing a better hook? Thanks!
Great video, how about a video on vein clearance, you got thinking
@@joelrougeau6403 facebook.com/WorldArchery/videos/336393690768847/
I always tune my arrow in a similar way, but my form is still so erratic that over 10 yard I get unreadable results. once i literally blown up the paper tune stander :D
Yea the tune can only be as good as the archer. Find us on facebook TTT Strings. We offer a 1hr virtual coaching that could really help you out.
Will this help save my marriage?
Hi great video! i am now bareshaft tuning my arrows. But here's the thing: i pull the string with my right hand, but place my arrow also on the right side of my bow (it's a double recurved horsebow). Does that mean that for me all is inverted?
That depends are you using thumb draw or fingers like a right handed shooter would?
@@tttarchery I use both, i use slavic draw for speed shooting and thumb draw with Kathrâ
If I have a bare shaft that is hitting dead straight at 10 yds but is impacting the target 4 inches to the right of where I’m aiming , what’s my problem? Thanks for the video
Does it also impact 4” right at 20 and 25 or does it progressively go further right?
I'm a little late to the game, but I'm wonderig what would you advise for string walkers? I find that my nocking point tune is wildly different depending if I'm shooting a 5, 10 or 15yd crawl.
I paper tune at 5 yards with a 15 yard crawl, but said string walk is going to vary wildly depending on distance whenever I'm on range or sump shooting
Always tune for your average distance or the distance you feel you need to be most accurate. Longer riser shorter limbs helps with a string walking setup. You will want to setup the bow possibly with a longer arrow so you dont have such extreme crawls. Its the struggle everyone has to deal with when it comes to string walking. The longer the bow the better.
If you string walk, do you need to shoot at the same level on the string as you walk back when you are initially tuning?
You would want to start by tuning the crawl that is the average or most common shot distance. So for say a 30 yard 3D course I would probably tune my 26-27 yard crawl, see how 30 goes and you might have to tune to a 28 or more as the further the distance the more tune matters.
I would be struggling to hit the target at 30 yards.
Anyone have any tips for getting my release consistent enough so that I can tune?
facebook.com/WorldArchery/videos/336393690768847/
Interesting point on too much foc. What range would you say I should keep it under / not worry about too much foc if I'm under say 20%?
I get a lot of low right (off group from the fletched arrows) with the bare shaft with my constantly tinkered ilf setup and I never bothered to correct that unless I have to hunt with it. How picky are you personally with arrow tuning say with a practice bow off-season not competing or hunting just form practice and keeping up the muscle memory?
Hey Dan for most arrows i use a simple rule not much over 200 total grains on the tip thats a really good flying shaft. If you get into super heavy aluminum you maybe can go more. Wood arrows do not like heavy tips at all, max 160 grain for best accuracy. Personally i dont give myself any allowance for an untuned bow any time of the year. I work the tune until i can pull a bareshaft out and shoot it with the fletched at any distance. ILF adds a whole other complication to the tuning, and maybe that should be for another video.
@@tttarchery thanks for the reply. That’s awesome and really helpful.
What would you say is too much foc?
When your bareshafts show a bad angle of entry in the target at your maximum effective range.
Why not start at 30 yrds and save time and energy?
If you start at 30 and you dont have a massive bail expect to completely miss the target possibly bend or break arrow on the first shot. Other than that you can get a false positive shooting that far away if the arrow is too far out of tune.
Quick question.. so do you have to bare shaft tune every arrow or fine tune one arrow and then cut the others to the same length? Thanks
Hey Richard its always good to check that all arrows are matching for spine and weight. Carbon, especially cheap carbon can have quite a variance. If you dont have a way to confirm, then make 2-3 bareshafts to ensure that you are getting a good representation of the batch. Always cut your arrows same length. If one is so far off it shoots bad cull it from the herd or switch to better quality arrows.
@@tttarchery you were not lying about the addition of tape to the arrow. Made a big difference. 🙏