I do love that there are so many characters in the DC films that are justifiably unimpressed by ideas and concepts that we, as a society, find fantastic or use as communication shorthand.
@@0lderSch00l It was that combined with the fact that he doesn't really know the full truth but he is acting like he does. Diana probably knows everything through stories told to her by her mother.
One of the most under-appreciated things is the CGI in this movie. It was so near perfect. As corridor crew says the best CGI is the one that doesn't get noticed.
Yeah Doomsday doesn't look the best but he's in like the 10% last bit of the movie. All the other CGIs were great. But that's how most people treat CGI artists. They only care about the bad bits. Like that last fight in Black Panther, despite the other good CGI bits in that movie.
You missed 140 wins for Snyder perfectly timing and syncing the terraforming scenes from both films. Everything is accurate to the second, and not a single detail is missed. For example, the crashing fighter jet that flies over the staff of the planet before hitting a wall? You see it impact in front of bruce and he has to swerve out of the way of it.
I think the biggest theme of this movie is this: humanity is a choice. Batman in this version seems to have given up his humanity years ago, but Superman, despite not being a human in his DNA, is the most human of this movie’s big three.
Nicely put. It also provided a great character arc for Bruce - him realizing that Clark is much more human than him and accepting him as an ally while working on his own issues. I really liked how that was handled in JL.
And that when one loses their humanity, one can always find it again. Batman's arc in this film is a beautiful representation of that, with Superman serving as his inspiration.
“Weather he was dead for 5 years or 5 minutes” Batman vs Superman released 2016, Zack Snyder’s Justice League releases 2021 Five years, cinema wins called it
This movie receives backlash because of two main reasons.. 1. Wb cutting out important plot points and scenes 2. Wrong marketing- this movie is incredibly story driven and a lot like watchmen but it's was marketed much like an mcu movie made out of small story and a lot of action. This movie is much like an episode from a comic. It's just incredible.
I would add to that that the title was a huge mistake. The title "Batman V Superman" title implies that the movie will be just that Thus it implants in the viewer a certain type of movie experience. The title implies it will just be another protagnist vs antagonist. However what we got in BvS was so much more. The themes really did require a much more open and questioning mindset.
@@xarzithas The title also suggests a court trial is going to take place. Forgivable. But I'd say the biggest mistake was using a director who did not understand or like the titular characters.
Honestly they did it too soon, taking the animated movies as an example, we had 2 justice league movies and Superman also appeared on other movies, so when he died we had somewhat a greater connection with him(thats not the case for me because man of steel have a certain sentimental value , but for other people I wouldn't say the same). They also did doomsday too soon, the vilain could have been Lex on some kind of armor he made to be godlike and you could use the fight between batman and superman as a reason for they being beaten by Lex, a Superman weakened from kryptonite, and a batman who maybe got some broken bones and 1 or 2 gunshot wounds wich would be a reason for Wonder woman to join the fight, anything other than doomsday
Didn’t felt forced? Did Bruce not went to Diana and tried to convince her to come to the fight like 2 or do scenes ago? Batman knew who she was and what was she doing there. She said no and then changed her mind. So Batman just forgot who she was or was the costume to good for Batman. I always thought it was a bad joke. Out of character for Batman. Superman asking seems legit though
@@justcrapynames Nope. You either made that up or misremembered the movie because that never happened. Bruce only talks to Diana TWICE before that fight, and the first time is to get his flash drive from her. The second time is over email, and BOTH times he asked “Who are you?” to which he never got an answer.
Darkchainzz I see your point, especially the part about the shaky cam, but, imho, I still think that the highway fight scene between Cap and Bucky was one of the best cherographed action sequences to come from a superhero movie.
Tony BMW Same! It’s one of my favorite movies and I say it’s a masterpiece. I just wish what we got (Justice League) lived up to what was set up in this movie, but that doesn’t matter.
YES!! Its one of my favorite top movies. I had a friend finally watch it. Granted, he watched the Ultimate Edition, HE LOVED IT!!! He couldn't believe he never watched it.
@@pablomaybe6111 I think so many people are just used to the Marvel formula, which works for them, but DC has ALWAYS been on the darker side. I appreciate that Man of Steel and BvS was so gritty. Even WW is about war and what takes to be on a hero's journey. Brilliant stuff!
CinemaWins is like a hot cup of honey-scented tea after a night of guzzling booze and picking fights. It just washes all of the cynicism, vitriol and bad taste out of your mouth so you can see things in a much more clearer and positive light.
Can we all just appreciate the Batmobile chase scene shows how 20 years of Batman being around has made criminals ABSOLUTELY TERRIFIED of him, the bad guys in that scene use military grade weapons and none of them even SCRATCH the batmobile which would put out the message "to criminals Batman is scary" well enough on it's own but then you remember these are Gotham criminals which means that Batman has made criminal so scared that they now actively shell out for military grade hardware and as I recall A ROCKET LAUNCHER!! To me the Batmobile chase is one of the best examples of show don't tell I've ever seen
I do love the final evolution of batman, he's gone from idealistic to driven and now obsessed. He's older, so, like most of us do as time goes on, he cut the BS. He's not as fast as he used to be, but he's strong and cunning and he makes that work for him. In this film he's stripped down to the core of what he is, which is a dangerous, mission oriented, serial assailant.
@@HUMAN-fq5ff I'm all for a more brutal Batman but it doesn't completely add up in universe. If he's killing thugs then why doesn't he kill villains like the Joker?
I feel so bad for Zack Snyder. WB in their greed have hacked his vision on two occasions. Every scene feels like a painting and the score is incredible. I love that he takes risks and that the characters are grounded. Sad to see him leave the DCEU, i will really miss his style.
What really sucks is that all the negative critics of this movie is probably what made the studio feel forced to take more executive actions on justice league, which ended up butchering the entire thing.. :\ I personally really liked the older Bruce portrayed by Affleck, more tainted and dark, as well as the BvS all over.
Well that's easy Disney paid off the critics too put down a great epic first superheros, before marvel bullshit characters call civil war than Dawn of Justice
Damn I really wanted to see Snyder's original vision. He explained that Flash appearing to Bruce in his cave was a badly timed time jump from the future. Knightmare vision is actually the distant future where Lois has been killed by Darkseid which causes Superman to give into the anti-life equation. So Cyborg, Flash and Bruce tried to send Flash back in time to warn Bruce that Lois is they key and this time they had to send Flash to the batcave right before Darkseid boomtubes in there to kill Lois.
y'know, a 5 movie saga doesn't sound that bad at all. I don't need 20+ movies to enjoy one extra special movie they've been building up to. Like did we need 4 solo movies for the A-team or 12+ for the expendables? I remember when i was trying to marathon lord of the rings for the second time i felt exhausted by the time i was halfway done with return of the king. I can't imagine doing the mcu much less have the patience to even try. Movie's are not tv episodes and probably shouldn't be treated as such because thats a very risky as fuck move and expensive as balls. look at the failed monsters universe, Ghost busters, and Sony's amazing spider verse. at least Snyder got all the way to justice league despite that being a Frankenstein of a movie. If his daughter didn't commit suicide (God rest her soul) he probably would have stayed and fought back harder against those WB execs. Now that WB's got a new CEO hopefully they'll listen to the fans. and if they don't, i won't be surprised if Zack would be done with them because they've screwed with his vision since Watchmen.
This keeps happening with Snyder's work, Sucker Punch comes to mind. There are still things about it I don't like, for instance, I get the Martha moment, still think it was not as "smart" as people make it out to be. But yeah, I appreciate this more now than when it first came out.
@@doctordoom1860 How is the movie "aging like fine wine"? its still as bad as it was 4 years ago. The characters are still just as inaccurate and poorly written. "most critics and fans like it" Source?
Seriously, why can't there be more people like you in the world? You show great levels of optimism in your videos, while also giving reviews at the end that feel FAR more professional and authentic than what a good number of "professional" critics. SPREAD THE WORD OF CINEMAWINS AND HIS RIGHTEOUS TRUTHS!!!
I really didn't think watching the ultimate edition would change much but I was wrong. I haven't watched the theater version since. The directors cut is an awesome movie and WB needs to learn to just let the directors do their job.
I enjoyed what I saw in the theater even though it left a rather bad taste in my mouth. Then I saw the UE. Never saw the theatrical version ever again.
The thing with Zack Snyder's movies is that his extended versions are always miles better than the theatrical version. Have you seen the director's cut of Watchmen? It's nearly 4 hours long. No joke! :)
More like 'underexplained.' Honestly, the only difference between the Martha scene and Stark's "No, he killed my parents' is that Disney spent more screen time blatantly spelling out Stark's psyche and spoon feeding viewers.
Something you missed that I felt should count is Bruce's reaction when Alfred talks about "...makes a man cruel"... Was obviously an admonishment of Bruce's descent into what I'd call madness and Affleck's reaction really sold their relationship to me more than some pithy comment or whatever. Their interactions overall are some of my favourite parts of this movie.
Totally agree with you. Another scene was when Bruce Wayne unlocks the photo of wonder woman from world war2. As he looks at that picture, there is no dialogue in the scene, but he leans back in his chair (with WW bgm playing in the background) and you can see it on Afflecks face. In that scene you can see Bruce's whole perception of reality or the world he lives in is changing, he was just coming to terms with supes(alien) inhabiting our world and then he sees the wonder woman pic. I thought that was another masterful scene by Zack and Affleck, no dialogues no spoon feeding but just pure acting to convey the story.
Hi friends, I’m seeing that one of the biggest issues in the comments is that Clark said “Martha” not “Mom.” I glossed over that because I thought it was self-explanatory. Bruce had just talked about Superman’s alien parents…So “save my mom” wouldn’t have accomplished anything. Also, he genuinely hoped Bruce would save his mother after he killed him….So he’d need a name. And if you watch the scene (I cut right before it, unfortunately) it sounds like he’s trying to say, "Kent" as Batman pushes down on his throat. It seemed so clear I didn’t realize people took issue with it.
Love your videos! But you also have to realize that when it comes to an easily criticized movie, there's a big mob mentality. People call this "the worst movie ever" as if there haven't been Norm of the North's or Movie 43's out there. People don't like using their brains to figure things out. Snyder is a visual director, but instead of paying attention to what the visual portray, they write it off as more Snyder "style over substance" crap. It's frustrating.
I was just about to mention why saying "mom" is stupid...batfleck in his rage would've paid no mind if Clark said "save my mom" because he wouldn't care... He doesn't even mention that it's his mother, Lois does... Supes didn't care about trying to save himself by making himself more human, it's just that he genuinely wanted to make sure that his mom can be saved, and he does this with what he thinks is his last breath...
+CinemaWins My explanation was Superman and Clark Kent relate to people differently in front of other people. Clark would call Martha as "mom" say, in front of neighbors or friends. Superman would address his mom as Martha or Mrs Kent or crazy old lady in front of the same people, and Martha would slap his face in private LOL
Isnt Batman supposed to be the world's greatest detective? So, he should have known about Supes and his alter ego, shouldnt he? And also, doesnt Superman possess super hearing as well?So, no matter where they kept Martha, if she were not gagged (which she wasnt) and could talk even a little bit (she did), Supes should have found her in an instant.
Batman was portrayed exactly how I always wanted him to be.... dark, brooding and flat out scary. This Batman did what rogue one did for Darth Vader.... it made me actually fear him if he were to actually exist. Zack did great could not care less how the haters feel. This movie was awesome.
WB: Let's hire Zach Snyder to do an epic job with BvS. Also WB: We're still gonna screw with the movie in post and ruin it. The director obviously doesn't know what he's doing and we have to fix it, because...you know, it's our money, so we get to ruin all the things.
What are you smoking? WB's producers when they viewed the film gave it a standing ovation. At the end of the day this is Zack Snyder's vision. The ultimate editions does add more stuff to it but this is stuff Snyder made the decision to cut out. Both versions are his vision. If you want to complain about altering his vision look at Justice League that became a Joss Whedon popcorn film without any of the pathos Snyder uses.
The doomsday fight was one hundred percent necessary. The threat he posed was the exact situation batman was afraid of. The irony is not only was superman not the threat, but he sacrificed himself to stop that threat. Absolutely agree with you otherwise I just had to point that out.
Which pretty much throws the entire "OMG he was just saying Martha so as to make Batman know his mother was human and the fact that their mothers both had the same name was just a coincidence with no real bearing on Batman's ultimate decision to spare Superman" argument out the window.
I think everyone gets that. I respect the effort as a call back, but not the execution. That's not the argument. The argument it doesn't make any sense for Superman while he's about to die to say "You're letting him kill Martha" and not "My mother" What would make him think he'd care about a random woman from an entirely different city named "Martha" when he's pretty much about to be murdered in cold blood because Bruce came off the entire movie as a sociopathic douche? Please excuse me, I came here to compliment the movie, but that needs to be done with realistic respect for its flaws as well as it's strengths. If he said "My mother, Martha." It would serve both, not only Bruce being pulled into the realization that Clark is "human" with a famliy and all, but that the two of them aren't so different. Having him blurt it out that way came off as forced to many viewers that's all. I still commend the *effort* though, just not the execution. I apologize if I come off disrespectful I didn't come here like I know some people do to hate and throw salt at a potentially good or even great film. Fun Fact: Martha is my own great grandmother's name.
I have thought about it myself and came up with a possibility a while back. We have to remember that while Batman did not know of Superman's secret identity, Superman did know of Batman's by the time of their fight and must have already become familiar with his background. Earlier in their fight, Batman did recognize that Superman must have had parents ( remember when he told Superman 'I bet your parents taught you that you mean something, that you're here for a reason') but he probably just thought of them as alien too or that he probably didn't thought of them as highly as Batman valued his own family; so Superman just mentioning his mother by 'mother' would not have done nothing to break Batman out of his kill rage. By using Batman's mother's own name, however, Clark knew that it would force Bruce to listen to him even for a minute, which sort of worked as it planted doubt in Bruce just long enough for Lois to come in and clarify who the Martha Clark was referring to was. I think that Clark saying Martha WAS the best way to get Batman to listen to him as , by that moment, Batman was to focused in killing Superman to listen to reason. He was fully driven by emotion, so the only way to break him out of it was bringing another emotion to the table. And what better emotion than his own family? Of course, Superman had no way of knowing that 'Martha' was also the last word uttered by Thomas Wayne and had the unexpected consequence of enraging Batman further but this also played out in Batman's own change of heart ultimately. Batman earlier acknowledged that Superman was not a direct threat to the world to Alfred, but carried on because of the 'even 1% chance' he would be. By uttering 'Martha' right before being killed, Superman became Thomas Wayne in Bruce's mind: a man who had done no real evil and whose life was extinguished by a criminal. Batman called himself a criminal earlier and realized that he had become the 'man with the gun' and could no longer justify himself in what he was doing, specially when, throughout the movie, it was obvious that the main reason he wanted to kill superman was to make his life as Batman (born out of the death of his parents) mean something. That was a lengthy explanation lol but I think that was what the scene was trying to convey. This is how it all clicked in my head anyways.
Re-watching this because still waiting on him to do Justice league. The line he says in this video about how he hopes the studio learns their lesson really hurts. Because they didn't learn their lesson. They put out a butchered movie just to make a bonus for themselves. Once again destroying Zach Snyder's vision.
The problem is that Snyder's vision resulted in a Man of Steel movie that turned off a lot of people, and then his vision in this movie just polarized things more. He's not a mass-appeal director. Honestly he's not a director at all, he's a cinematographer. If the studio had marketed this DCEU thing as more of a niche universe styled after Injustice, it could have worked. Unfortunately they had to try beating Marvel at their own game with movies that didn't abide by that game's rules, thus Marvel wins by default.
@@alejandromavarez164 dude wtf are you on Aquaman was a success and widely accepted as a good movie. Shazam is just as good if not better based on audience and critic reviews.
@@ItsButterBean1020 Superman was never going to be evil (He would've been mind controlled for like half of the fifth movie). Bruce was only going to sacrifice himself at the very end, with Affleck's Batman movie (Remember when he was directing it?) still getting made in between them.
I enjoyed Zack Snyder's DC films. I get that not everyone likes it because they believe it's not comic book accurate or lacks humor and comedy. But I still enjoyed them.
@@triplemoyagames4195 i get why Many feel this way especially since we just saw marvel do it but my point has always been DC usually starts a new run by introducing the justice league and then going deeper into the individual heroes
This is by far the best representation of how BVS was meant to be. If WB hadn't succumbed to trying to be like the MCU there is no telling how JL would have turned out.
I remember when this video first came out and there were so many people taking offense to what he gave a win to in this movie. DC fanboys who get mad when critics don't like their movies are annoying. But people like the original commentors who took offense to someone enjoying Batman v Superman are even worse. And guess what was the big issue they had. "Oh no! How can you like this movie when I think Civil War was better?" Lucklily now the comments have softened up a bit and become more people with logic who either agreed or simply disagreed. But before, this comment section was pure cancer. If you're wondering why I say this, it's because I'm on my third time watching this video.
Ha! So you're the guy racking up the view counter! Yeah, as the views slowed, so did the pure hatred. Lesson learned though. It was never really my intention to rile so many people up. I made the video for the fans not realizing the number of people who already had their minds made up would watch it and be super duper, duper insulted. Hopefully I can assuage the disdain when I get around to Suicide Squad. But probably not... You wouldn't believe how many death threats I got that were auto-spammed. Some people really don't like the women...in my....family...for some reason....? Really odd. Oh well. Glad you like it!
CinemaWins In my opinion, while Suicide Squad had interesting characters (mostly) and cool visuals, it had terrible editing (apparently staple of Warner Brothers' theatrical releases now) and a poor script that was the product of David Ayer being rushed by Warner Brothers. Despite this, I really am excited to see how you win Suicide Squad! Keep up the great work. And tell Jim to stop messing with your script!
"Oh no! How can you like this movie when I think Civil War was better?" Who ever said that? You're making strawman arguments. People disliked this movie because they disliked the movie. And being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian is just as un-thinking as following others for its own sake.
+CHP A lot of the earlier comments in this video were people saying exactly that (give or take a few strong words and unnecessary overuse of capital letters). I can understand why people may dislike the film, but yeah there were people legitimately taking offense to this video and using Civil War as why this video is wrong. We understand you don't like it, but you don't have to take offense to a video stating what the film did right.
James Lewis Fair enough. I really didn't like the film and found the characterization completely wrong. I also found this vid to be slightly half-baked, having nothing to do with Civil War. I guess, I took greater offense to your comment than I should've. Apologies.
I've loved other explanation of Martha scene from one guy, there is his comment: If you connect the dots in the nightmare scene where superman says, "she was my world" at that time, I believe it to be referring to Martha Kent not Lois Lane. Notice his reaction to when lex divulges the information of his mother being held hostage and he just about to lose it. So therefore, if you connect the dots of batman saving Martha Kent, batman believes that the nightmare scenario would no longer be a possibility and that 1% chance is no longer on the horizon. Also note, Lois being the key (what flash says in the other dream sequence) Lois was the key to finding out that Martha was the name of superman's mother. Without her interviening in that scene, superman would be as good as dead. Once batman found out, did you not notice the emotional change? So he found out new information and his mindset went from murder to saving instead.
How any Batman fan can say the Martha scene is dumb blows my mind. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the character. What I would say is true rather is that the fight itself was anti-climatic.The fight needed to be longer and have more back and forth. Another 10 mins IMO, with Batman really struggling. Having said that the fact is from the very beginning of the film it is established again that Batman fall into darkness came from that moment. He's driven by the murder of his parents, his whole life has become a distraction, vengeance to get back at those who robbed him of his childhood, Batman would do anything to have that childhood, to have his parents back. I.e. the fact superman's mum is Martha, Batman feels that by saving her in some ways he can finally do what he always wanted, save his mother from tragedy. The thing that pissed me off more in that scene and that really should have been executed better is, why on Earth would Superman suddenly start calling his Mother Martha? The way I would have cleaned that up is Clark investigating Bruce before the fight and actually finding out about his parents tragic death. That way it would have made sense that Clark actually purposely uses that information to get into Batman's psyche and end the fight peacefully. It would have given superman the depth and intelligence that he's been missing from this series and also it would have been a great way to show off Clark's skills as a journalist. It also would fit in great with Superman's character that he found a way to get to Bruce without hurting him. Essentially it would have in some ways made the fight a draw, which would have been a far more satisfying ending. Batman would have been shown to be able to take down Superman in a fight which would have satisfied the Batman fanboys, and superman would have been shown to be smart enough to end the conflict peacefully which would have satisfied Superman fans.
Danny O'Gara Yeah what a great, challenging answer. I said why the scene was disappointing and how it was executed badly. But as I said, Batman's motivation for stopping the fight is completely consistent with his character.
I'm sure this won't stop this comment from constantly coming up, but the reason Superman says "Martha" and not "Mom" is because he wasn't currently being Clark Kent. He was Superman. As unbelievable as it may be for Bruce to not know Superman's secret identity, he didn't at that point. So he was still protecting his secret identity. I thought that was obvious. That's why I didn't mention it. And if I had to defend the reasoning behind Bruce not knowing Superman was Clark, why would he assume he'd need an alter ego? He sees him as an evil god alien, why would he ever pretend to be human?
That's exactly what I say at first. Batman never knew that Clark Kent was Superman, for Bruce Clark was just another silly reporter taking side with Supes(Although I was kinda expecting to see this comment on the video) But you know, hate train and stuff.
+CinemaWins What do you think of the interpretation that due to Batman applying more pressure on Superman's throat the moment he said Martha, Superman was prevented from saying the rest of her name, and instead made a guttural sound? It's kind of out there, but interesting nonetheless.
CinemaWins I want to add something extra. The idea of the scene is not as wrong or as far fetched as most people think. This is a fiction world with rules of awesomeness all around, so an scene like that is perfect. The problem is the presentation. I'd just rewatch this movie yesterday, (because of this channel BTW) and the problem of the scene is the juxtaposition. The scenes that accompany the main scene are just the previous scenes from the same movie, as if someone wasn't sure the idea was clear. (I think people are not going to remember Martha is the name of Bruce's mom, let's repeat those scenes JUST IN CASE). If those scenes are replaced with scenes from the memories of a child Bruce with his mom, and maybe Clark with his mom, it would have driven the idea home. But they way is presented you feel like they are force feeding you something.
Save his secret identity by revealing his mom's name and ask Batman to go save her? Wouldn't Batman then know who Superman is simply by looking up who Martha Kent's son is?
This is one of the things I love about this movie: it's attention to detail. Because of that you're able to rewatch this movie and discover something you didn't need know before. This also allows for lots of deep thinking
@@user-ux1ll3tw9l oh shut the fuck up and quit reaching. He was going up against the most powerful man in the world and you expected Batman to fight him with his bare hands?!?!? Of course he needed to be prepared and armed with kryptonite. That's called being smart and not a moron. And even then Batman knew it was suicide going up against Superman and he STILL went through with it. That IS brave.
Snyder and Terrio need to do a video explaining that from their POV to everyone. At first I thought, "Oh yeah. Their moms do have the same name." Then I watched a video or two that had people explain their take and I've understood it more. Maybe a couple of lines could've been added showing Batman realizing his humanity. But I'm fine with it.
+Mr Nive like the WORLDS GREATEST detextive couldnt figure out that superman is a hero aftwr saving the world and repeated clips of supes saving lives! Yet realising that superman has parents makes bats realise supes is good? Wtf? All criminals have mothers? Infact bats dont give a crap about bad guys loving there moms!? Even lois figures out supes is a good guy and shes just a journo! Lex figured it out too but THE WORLDS GREATEST DETECTIVE had to attempt murder to see superman was a good in him? No thanx, cinema sins did this better!
I’m gutted that they completely changed the dceu because of the backlash to this movie. If the studio just went with the original vision, both suicide squad and justice league would have been a lot different, maybe better.
When I watched this movie for the first time, what CinemaWins says about the whole "Martha" thing was exactly what I thought! I never interpreted it as Batman standing down simply because the names were the same, his actions following the revelation made complete sense to me, I understood completely, and I'm glad CinemaWins could explain it more coherently here than I ever could! _GOD_, it just feels so good to hear this...
13:14 The fact that people got angry at that Steppenwolfe moment was weird. They had hinted at darkseid with the omega symbol and parademons since the trailers. Instead of people saying the DCCU was just copying the MCU by showing the head honcho of the whole series, they showed one of his most well known generals. How would Steppenwolfe be a problem? them showing steppenwolfe was awesome. Them having steppenwolfe look more demonic than his humanoid comic counterpart is even more awesome.
John Harmon Doomsday isn't a cave troll but that's what they made him looks like. Look closely at the steppenwolfe scene, those horns are attached to his head That isn't a helmet. He looks more like the kursed dark elf black guy in thor the dark world than he looks like a guy with a helmet. Also being demonic doesn't make him a demon just like being humanoid doesn't make him human or dragonic makes him a dragon. He may look it but it doesn't mean he is.
What you are not taking into account is most people will have very limited exposure to DC outside the movies, how are people meant to know who the hell Steppenwolfe and Darkseid are? The whole dream/Flash sequence is not explained at all. Flash does not even exist in the DCEU at this point in the movie and the only sequence in which Flash appears later is him in a different set of clothing. Even with a vague knowledge of DC I still did not know that Flash could travel through time. Those demon things are also very confusing for a lot of people simply because they appear in what is a very weird dream sequence. How is the general public meant to know what Darkseid symbol is or what a Parademon is? This would of course not have been an issue if it was a movie aimed at the niche market of just DC fans but when you aim for the general pubic you need to put some sort of explanation in, else you just end up with an audience and critics which is totally confused and will give bad reviews and spread bad word of mouth.
Superman was forced to hide his powers until he was an adult, felt alienated during his childhood (he was literally an alien), the only survivor of a dead species, the moment he decides to come out the world's facing a threat that too from his own kind, and then he's finally forced to kill his only remaining link to his heritage. When he says "my world doesn't exist anymore" it's not just Krypton blowing up or the world hating Superman, he was also sore about having to kill a fellow Kryptonian and destroying the Genesis chamber. Humans don't understand him, and there isn't a single Kryptonian left so he felt he was truly alone and a responsible for destroying Krypton. Also he did that because there was no hope for Kryptonians here, either by conquest or coexistence. See you don't always need spoon-fed expositions about why somebody's so damn hopeless and depressed. All you need is to follow the story a bit carefully and put yourself in the character's shoes. These aren't infallible comic characters. These are comic characters living in the real world.
@Yasser Bostan There's nothing 'mysterious' about anything. It's pretty clear IMO. All the facts were presented to the viewer. All you have to do is put yourself in his shoes and it becomes very clear. That said, the film even has multiple scenes with Superman discussing with Lois and his mother about various stuff, so it's not like it's just a huge data dump from Snyder. The issue is that people watch the movie thinking it's the Superman that they've always known him as, when it's really when Superman first getting into the superhero world. When you throw away these preconceptions and just take things at the face value, it's very easy to follow. That's probably why the film did so well overseas compared to the domestic market (pretty much WB's best performing film ever), people who didn't grow up with the characters were watching their first DC movie and thus were able to enjoy it the way Snyder wanted it to be.
@DarkAvatar it's not exactly mysterious. I do agree with most of your argument, but this particular film was not so mysterious in the way it told its story.
@DarkAvatar Um, the dream sequence is just an Easter egg, at best maybe foreshadowing a future film. Like you said, if one never read the comics, they wouldn't know what the symbol meant, cool, you don't need to have read the comics to understand what was going on. As far as the audience is laymen are concerned, it is just a nightmare that batman is having due to his PTSD. That said, the comics and the DCAMU and New 52 also went straight into Justice League, so it's not like WB is completely doing their own stuff here.
If you disagree with what I'm about to say, DON'T BOTHER REPLYING. Clark had no idea that Bruce's mom was named Martha. He just said what he could while Batman was standing on his neck with a kryptonite spear. Batman heard "Martha...!" and basically went "What did you just say?" he released a bit of weight to let Clark talk "Save... Martha...!" Bruce, who sees Clark as a dangerous, murderous alien, thinks "No. Martha's dead. Hes trying to trick me. Right?" So he demands to know why Clark said the name. Lois explains that Clark's mother is Martha Kent. Batman then thought "His mother...? This alien has a human mother?" In other words: THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINK!!!!! What would you have said if your mom was in danger of dying and there was a guy in a metal suit pressing his boot against your throat with a spear to your face? The actual fight between Batman and Superman seems underwhelming with Batman managing to kick Superman's ass quite easily thanks to Kryptonite, despite the hype of which DC icon would win. But if one were to view the film with Batman as the villain/antagonist of the story, the fight's short and one-sided nature actually makes sense. It's not about who would win in a fight, but rather about just how far Batman has fallen in his vendetta against Superman. His dominance over Superman is not of a heroic underdog fighting back against a god, but rather a cruel bully harming a good man pleading for his aid to save his mother from being killed, going against everything Batman fought for. Batman had already lost the moment he started fighting while Superman ultimately won by making Batman realize what he has done. THIS. IS. NOT. MARVEL. Get you mind out of the MCU and into the DCEU. This is different. If you disagree, don't bother replying.
Because saying " my mother( which would have made faaaaaaaaaaar more sense) is so much more difficulty to say than "Martha"????????????? In your own words. THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINK!!! The criticism has always been about the WHY Superman says"Martha" and NOT about WHY it works on Batman. Defenders of this movie get it wrong CONSTANTLY. They defend tha "why it works on Batman" while ignoring ( or , in your case, give some incredibly weak defense of) WHY Superman would even say what he did how he did. Also, we just can;t understand why Superman ever thought that Batman, the guy he branded as a violent, borderline psychopathic, vigilante would be any help in finding/saving his mother.
@@daverobson3084 You know what would have happened if he said save my mom? It'd have gone In one ear and out the other. Batman clearly just stated not 2 mins beforehand he doesn't give a shit about Superman's parents. "I bet your parents taught you, that you mean something, that your here for a reason. My parents taught me a different lesson... dying in the gutter for no reason at all. They taught me the world only makes sense if you force it to." Batman would probably just assume he's talking about his alien mother, and proceed to impale him through the face. So how do you get through to the crazed vigilante who's claims to be doing this for the survival of the human race? You appeal to his humanity and make her a person. On the off chance Batman goes through with it and kills Superman, at least Batman would still have a name to go off of and not be all like "Who's Mom?" Plus, there's supposedly a deleted scene not seen in the Ultimate Edition were Clark does some research on Bruce and his parents on his laptop after finding out his identity at Lex's party. In it he learns Bruce's mother was named Martha, and notes the coincidence as his mother has the same name. This may lead into the scene where he calls his mother. Now, anyone running around dressed up as a bat is clearly not all there. It's been well established that Batman is fucked mentally and his parents death fucked him up, so it's possible, using this information, Superman knew Batman's mother's name was Martha and used it to his advantage. Like I said, appeal to his humanity and make her a person. I gave you two reasons as to why Superman said Martha and not mom, now take this L
@@daverobson3084 as if he had the time to call out a full sentence before some random dude in a metal suit and a spear in his hand pearses through his face. Yeah right. He had one single moment to get something in batman's mind and that's why he used the name of the person he wanted to save
@@DivvayKhatri Because yelling " You're letting him kill Martha!" is (somehow) NOT a full sentence.?!? Deciding that he did not want to convey WHO was killing Martha, or who indeed Martha even was , leaving a possible situation where Batman still kills him and still has no idea who was in danger of being killed and by whom. Why? Because everyone in this movie is a super genius combined simultaneously with a super idiot.
+Tom Cabler yeah I like both of them but it's funny how more people join to dislike stuff either than reviewing what's great about movies. it's like saying "yeah I disliked Interstellar a bit less than Memento, it has less crappy things"
A lot of people didn't because of the typical rage that comes from a first glance. I got it the first go around, just as I also got a lot of things that people were complaining about. And ftr, don't take that the wrong way, I get that sometimes we don't get things at first and I'm no exception, but a lot of people take it WAY too far.
I understood it like Batman would have, because I didn't realize both their mothers were named Martha. Of course it would throw Batman for a loop. Completely agree that it made him even more angry at first because he thought Supes was messing with him, and then realized his revenge was misguided and out of character for his ideals.
Exactly. And yeah, I noticed a while back that their mothers had the same name and I've always wondered if DC ever planned on doing something with that lol.
As a non-comic book reader, I see no difference between BvS and the Avengers movies in quality and messy story telling. In fact, the Avengers is so full of meaningless action with a thin plot that I get bored. Why the DC movies are so hated while the comic book level Marvel is not seems to me ridiculous.
I remember witnessing the Martha scene and thinking this is cinematic gold, and when people made fun of it I was like sure it sounds goofy but it makes so much sense but people didn't seem to get it. Hopefully more people see this and understand that this movie is insanely good.
But surely the fact that it sounds goofy means it isn’t cinematic gold? I mean, it got close by having good ideas and intentions, but the poor execution would give it cinematic silver at best.
I had no problems with this scene and even liked the beginning of the movie and some scenes were great. But an insanely good movie? It's like there are just people who adore it and those who give it way to much hate. Cinematic gold...I would say it's a nice watchable movie.
11:39 When doomsday looked at the Superman statue like that I was amazed. Even though he is an absolute monster designed only to kill. You can still see the anger Zod holds for Superman in doomsday. Fantastic.
It is a well established trait of Batman's character that whenever he gets too close to the edge, the memory of his parents pulls him back. As such, it's been used in every medium Batman has appeared in. What baffles me is that, for the first time in 80 years, this movie is the only time it's been met with derision.
probably because in this movie he has already killed random goons without heistating while in the others its his first time. he kills a shit ton of people in this film lmao it might have worked if he didnt
@@sharendavis9216 r u dumb I understand why he doesn't kill superman but it would make way more sense if that was his first time killing someone In the movie it is shown that he doesn't hesitate to kill random goons but he does with superman who could kill everyone if he wanted.
@@haseebsiddiqi3409 I would have just shot him, I mean for sure Superman wouldn't even try to dodge (being bulletproof and all that). Best to ignore these small problems, every movie has them, if it works it works.
My goodness. The Martha-name-saying secene. FINALLY! Someone who actually gets it. It was one of the most powerful scenes in the movie. People don't understand it and don't want to simply because of the fact that it was more spiritual in nature. People don't handle spiritual moments in cinema well. You need to think about it a bit to understand it. You explained it great. I would only add that what happened was that Batman recognized Superman as a brother in spirit, as an ally, because he saw his father's dying wish to protect his mother, an image of the purity and good in the world, embodied in Superman (not to mention that when Superman was about to die himself he could only speak about "saving Martha" which is IDENTICAL to what Batman's dad did!). He realized that, although they are vastly different, they share the same moral values and within that moment Batman went through a rebirth - he reestablished his true identity through Superman. He became heroic once again, because in Superman he saw himself. That is just cinema gold. Why is this movie bad again?
Everybody understands the point of this scene. It's still stupid. First of all, how does Batman doesn't know that Clark Kent has human parents? And mother with the name Martha? But still, he mentioned about Clark having a parents while they were fighting, so Batman knew that Clark no some alien-freak? But even more, Bruce knew that Superman is not bad, but he told Alfred about "even 1 % chance" and it's alll gone because Superman has a mom?
Ringo Deathstarr Batman doesn't know Clark has human parents because he was constantly being manipulated by Lex into thinking hes a threat, and trying to know about his parents or investigating if he has human parents is not something he would need to investigate, simply because he doesn't care about his life because he thinks of him as a threat and just wants to kill him. Batman assumes Clark Kent has parents, in his imagination, he thought of superman's parents as "aliens" just like him, thinking they would also destroy the world fighting other aliens in the name of peace. That's the reason why he says "1% Chance" to Alfred because he wanted to kill Superman as soon as he gets the chance. And its all gone Not because Superman has a mom, but because hes reminded of his mother through the name "Martha" who just like Superman tried to stop/fight the criminal from shooting her son(Batman) before dying, and therefore Batman also realizes that he has a human mother because human name. Superman knows Batman's mother's name because he investigates his whereabouts and details much earlier in the movie thinking hes a criminal killing prisoners (which was set up by Lex to cause conflict between both). And in the end, Superman uses the name "Martha" to stop him from killing him.
So, you're saying that they both were manupulated by Lutor, but Superman did investigation about his enemy and THE GREATEST DETECTIVE didn't? It's bullshit.
Ringo Deathstarr Both didn't necessarily need manipulation. Batman was manipulated, by making him witness the capitol explosion and one of his trusted people die in it, making him think superman blew up the building and killed innocent people that wanted to judge him for his acts lawfully, and made him think hes "cruel", whereas superman only needed to know if Batman is a criminal or not to keep an eye on him (which is why he warns Batman at that Batmobile chase scene) and moreover he didn't need to get manipulated because all Lex needed to do was kidnap his mother and force him to face the Kryptonite from Batman's hands (which he didn't know about). Only to show the world that a simple human can kill a God. Moreover, Batman doesn't need to investigate things about an "Alien", he only needs to know what kills Superman (Kryptonite). And Superman does need to investigate, because he thinks Batman is killing prisoners. And Superman's human parents are out of the question, because that's something Batman can never even think of to investigate, which is not really the reason why he changes in the end anyway. It was more about his own mother than Superman's mother.
i disagree. the original movie is good (and very good in certain areas) and didn't deserve the shitting on it got. The ultimate edition is great movie and one of the best superhero films
@@jammygamer8961 well, in the theater edition there's a huge mistake, when at the beginning Lex's soldiers kill all of those African soldiers(?) with bullets, then Superman arrives and saves Lois. Later, they say it's Supes fault as he presumably killed those African soldiers, but how come? Superman doesn't shoot bullets. While in the ultimate edition Lex's soldiers burn those African soldiers corpses, and now you can incriminate Superman for using heat vision, and kill them.
THANK YOU, DEAR FUCKING GOD, SOMEONE FINALLY GOT IT WHEN IT CAME TO THE WHOLE "Martha" SCENE! I HATE HOW MISUNDERSTOOD IT USUALLY IS! Thank you so much, seriously. ;u;
I honestly like movies where you have to pay attention. You notice something new every time you watch it. Unfortunately, DC studios seems to be forgetting this greatness and is starting to make movies that you really only need to see once. I really hope Snyder can be worked back into future projects.
The Martha part was never that bad. I was really moved when first time seeing this. People are making a meme out of this just because they need to make a meme out of this.
@@nkb5245 and no one takes that seriously or anything. They just think of it as a joke just like everything else in the mcu. And if someone shows up arguing about it then they're like "atleast it wasn't rushed". Like, wtf. A whole origin story is devoted to that one part for allowing people to understand it.
I also want to add that Bruce had asked "How many of them have remained the same ?" but when Clark(e) or Superman meets him, inspite of being in such predicament, all he wanted to was talk and explain everything to him. And Batman himself had changed, Superman had not. These movies are very deep.
I so love this channel! It always makes me feel good, it is so much harder to create than to rip down. I feel soo proud just to be a fan and have you give some love to the creators of the world!
So, about the martha scene and if anyone is interested in this kind of stuff, the flashback of the waynes is a representation of bruce PTSD: post traumatic stress disorden, the scene shows you the symptoms of ptsd for unexpected outcome. (Basically unexpected surprise). I think that ben affleck did an excelent job portraying those emotions, ptsd flashback are really powerful and fulled with really heavy emotions. Doesn't matter how logical and calculative bruce can be as a character, mental illness shuts down your logical side of the brain without you even realizing.
This movies Lex Luthor gets a lot of hate, but people need to understand that their ARE different versions of him, BvS's Lex Luthor is literally pulled right out of Superman: Birthright form the clear mental issues to the long red hair.
the normal version was cut for time and was a jumbled mess which left people confused. Ultimate edition only had 30 min of extra film, but my god, it made the mess clean, the flow was amazing, and everything story wise became much more clear.
Ok. This video, this is the cinimawins video that made me realise the reason we NEED this channel. I didn't like bvs but now I watched this video....I do. This video explains the stupid sounding things and makes you realise the real point of scenes and makes you understand the movie even more.
I'd give you a million likes if I could. Great video with great in-depth explanations. Still can't believe how people didn't understand the movie. First time I saw the movie I understood everything. Literally. To me the motivations were clear, the plot was clear, I even understood why this Batman was more violent. In all honesty, I think this movie is Zack Snyder's magnum opus. Man of Steel was excellent, in my opinion, but this one was at least twice as good.
+Hard to Kidnap agreed to a certain extent. If you missed the Martha piece, once again, it does have to deal with intelligence but more so watching the film with an open mind. It is not enough to write off certain scenes because they "didn't make sense" and more often than not the comments and critics against that particular arc speak to the fact the majority of those that left those types of comments and reviews simply did not understand the scene and why it was placed where it was. This film has flaws, yes, but if we as moviegoers were to watch every movie for said flaws and are NOT critics that are getting paid for their opinion(s), then every movie would suck.
I still have mixed feelings about this. I like it from a thematic standpoint, and the cinematography is pretty fantastic. But as a Superman fan? This film kills me.
THANK YOU. I hate that I have to defend "the Martha scene". it makes total sense and it's extremely powerful if you actually pay attention to the narrative and the theme of the movie...
I agree. I don't hate the movie, I just have a hard time seeing the positives because of how much they've changed my favorite characters into things they shouldn't. for me "could have been written better." sums up exactly how I feel about the movie as a whole.
I loved this movie so much. I really hope that Zack Snyder's cut of Justice League gets a release. The theatrical version was alright but it had way too much of what I dislike about the MCU in it. I'm really excited for Flashpoint though, Ezra Miller is great as Barry Allen.
I'm excited for Flashpoint as well, since DC and WB are 99.9% certainly going to use it to completely scrap everything (except Wonder Woman somehow) and reboot the entire franchise with movies that can actually compete with Marvel.
the Snyder cut is literally all the stuff he filmed that its its all the footage he filmed before he had to leave for pretty tragic reasons there is no Synder cut because Synder didn't finish the Movie
I have to admit I resisted watching the Ultimate Edition for the longest time because, for me, the Theatrical Version was a painful chore to sit through. I can't even tell you how many times during the movie I thought, "GOD DAMMIT GET ON WITH IT ALREADY!!!." Even after hearing so many great things about the Ultimate Edition, I still put off watching it because what if I experience the same thing again? I finally made myself watch the Ultimate Edition the other night and..... I had the BIGGEST smile on my face the whole movie!! Never before have I so insanely enjoyed watching an extended version of a movie I didn't enjoy in the first place! Everything just flowed like a river. It's amazing what adding 30 minutes worth of scenes can do to improve a film. Hell, even Eisenberg's performance became bearable (mostly). I will never for as long as I live even glance in the Theatrical Version's general direction again. But the Ultimate Edition? I could watch that till my eyes bleed out. Anyone who hasn't watched the Ultimate Edition yet needs to go do so RIGHT NOW! I promise you, it is DEFINITELY worth your time.
TheSupersaiyan2012 Dude I agree! And I liked the theatrical version. I literally just finished watching the ultimate edition and I have no words. It's a million times better.
"I could watch it till my eyes bleed out." Well, my eyes already bled out the first time I saw BvS Theatrical Release. Not gonna let myself be disappointed again.
+brownie Lashea cinema sins is meant to make fun of a movie. This seems to be meant to show us the good things in a movie. So we are not going to get a lot of jokes making fun of the movie
People also turned off their brains when they wondered why Superman couldn't find his mother himself. Yes, telescopic/x-ray vision would've helped...IF he knew she was in Gotham. He had no reason to assume that. She was all the way in Kansas when she was kidnapped and Luthor made it clear that he had no idea where his men took her because he wouldn't let them tell him. That being said, for all he knew, she could've been anywhere. Possibly even out of the range of his senses (which Zack Snyder said were nerfed in this universe). That's not a risk he could take. Super-hearing wouldn't have worked either, as she had guns and a flamethrower pointed at her head, keeping her from making a sound. You can't hear a sound if there is no sound to hear.
Manny619 Exactly. Lex has been one step ahead of Superman throughout the entire film. He knew Superman would come for Lois in Africa and knew he'd show up at the capitol. People really think he wouldn't have anticipated Superman going to find his own mother?
James Clissett Yes. That's what a lot of people don't understand. For films, you have to put limits and filters on Superman's abilities in order to make storytelling more accessible. Superman can't be seen pushing planets or tanking supernovas. Unless you're a comics reader, that comes off as ridiculous. I mean, look at how people call BS on the things Chris Reeve's Superman could do; throw a cellophane "S" sheet, wipe Lois' memory with a kiss, rebuild the Great Wall of China by looking at it, and of course, turning back time with a worldwide spin. A Superman of that power-level is not optional for today's cinema.
Just to help your point, she was actually in a warehouse in Gotham. In the extended cut she's collected by a GCPD Officer while Batman flies off. People who ask why Superman couldn't have found her are vastly underestimating how big Metropolis is, how big the World is, and Overestimating Supermans powers.
M El Oh, yeah! Silly me! She was in Gotham. And I'm so glad to see yet another person who actually pays attention to the narrative and recognizes Superman's clear limitations in the DCEU. Thanks again for the Gotham warehouse catch! Can always count on a member of the House of El for intellectual insight!
I’m so glad he explained that it wasn’t about the names being identical. Because I surely was one of the people who thought that that was the reason he ceased from killing Superman. Now that I know the actuality of it, it is kinda heart warming. 💯😌
@@user-ux1ll3tw9l It's also because of the fact that he pleaded for someone elses life instead of his own in that moment. He didn't expected that from an alien.
I really enjoy both cuts of the film, but for the sake of balance, I would check out moviebobs video essays on BvS, they are very good and an interesting take on the problems with the film.
Lol. I did stop what I was doing and immediately clicked on this as soon as I saw it. I had to see what could be positively said about this one. 1st movie ever I went to theaters to see and walked out actually kind of wanting my money back lol smh
"I really hope the studio learns from this next time and just releases the original cut. ...Or ignore us and keep doing what you're doing. It's not like this is the third time his vision for the movie has been the better version." Oh boy. Hearing these words now. #ReleaseTheSnyderCut just got trending with over 700k tweets at #1 worldwide on Twitter with the cast, crew, and Zack himself joining in with the voice of the movement that also includes lots of industry professionals who weren't involved with the making of Zack's next movie... does WB not watch these videos? Damn.
I'm glad this video exists, this film seems to get nothing but hate from critics and for a while I believed them. This gives me a much greater appreciation for the film and makes me hopeful for the rest of the DCCU... so long as it doesn't turn out like Suicide squad. No list of great songs can save that film.
I don't think they wanted Suicide Squad to be as deep as BvS. It is a good popcorn flick you forget after a few days but BvS stays with you forever. I hope for the sake of the DC universe that the executives are not copying the Marvel formula because that will rob the fans of the true essence of DC movies. Jnr
John Richards That's my biggest fear for this series. That WB is trying to turn DC into Marvel, which absolutely NEVER HAPPEN. Honestly, I feel like WB has suffered a change of management after Man of Steel.
I think BVS was awesome so I don't know why they ditched some of the executives. I think they want the critics' vote so they are cutting corners and trying to make DC movies less intense and more kid friendly like Marvel movies. If they had adapted the Assault on Arkham animated movie to the big screen it would have done better than the Suicide Squad movie we got. Where BVS was a 10/10, Suicide Squad was a decent 7/10 but you don't feel the need to watch again. However BVS is a movie you can watch again and again because of its depth and hidden messages as well as the emotional ending where Superman dies. Jr
9:37 personally the only thing the "Martha" scene needed was a P.O.V shot of Bruce briefly seeing himself as the robber who killed his parents (seeing hismelf holding a gun instead of the spear), after Superman pleads him to save his mom, Martha. Sure it is one hell of a coincidence, but is the coincidence that was loud and in-your face enough to get into the head of the rage-fueled Batman at this point.
Can I steal this comment? Batman realized he was the one holding the gun, at essentially a helpless son. Bruce needed something to slap him in the face HARD to snap him out of this...a Flashback to Joe Chill or whoever killed his parents in this continuity...qualifies.
When people complaining about 'Martha' scene I was like 'You don't know about PTSD, do you? Oh. and funny thing is people who bashing BvS for 'trying to be something more than superheroes film' are the same one that praise Logan.....Yep.
People praise Logan for being 'more than superheroes movie'. I'm also one of them too. But those people also criticize BvS for 'be more than superheroes film' which is really weird statement. Most of those people always be like 'I hate BvS for being more than superheroes film but I love Logan for being more than superheroes film' or 'Superheroes film should be fun and lots of action. Why did they made BvS so gloomy with few actions. Oh, but Logan is so good because it's so tragic eventhough it has few action scenes'. Don't get me wrong, man. I have nothing against Logan at all. It's one of my favourite movies of 2017 next to Blade Runner 2049 (can't wait to see EGA of that movie) and little bit higher than Wonder Woman. I just feel like some of statement against BvS are ridiculous. I understand some of them eventhough I don't agree with them but some of them are bullshit.
Thanya Waeohongsa well I've never heard more than superheros but Logan was amazing and while bvs ultimate edition is better some things in it was poorly executed and it bored me to be honest it had its moments but it really felt crammed
11:45 Also, did you notice when Lex told Superman that "God wasn't there to protect me from Daddy's fists and abominations", Superman does exactly what Lex just said in this scene as a God protects Lex from fists and abominations. Amazing what you can find if you pay attention :D
My theater was full of indifference. I thought it was aight. I didn't like Doomsday, but I do like how his fight pretty much addressed my biggest problem with the Zod fight. I still hate how they made it so that Superman didn't do much damage control during the big Zod fight, but in this one, Supes is trying to drag Doomsday into space, lure him into uncrowded areas and all his attempts are met with different results which add substance to the fight. That's how you execute a superhero fight scene.
It is a real shame that after this masterpiece warner bros and dc blinked and made justice league such a cop out that very poorly links in with the story and themes this movie set up
9:53 not to mention that when Lois told him about Martha, Bruce at that moment saw himself in the position of the man that killed his parents with the weapon in his hand, it was that moment he realized that he was no better than the man that killed his parents, if anything, he felt he became worse than the murderer of his parents.
Way to read into a scene what was never portrayed. There was NO indication of that at all. If THAT were what had happened you would expect some really glaring change and self reflection on his activities. Instead we just got " Oh well, I don't hate this Super alien anymore and were now besties and I'll do whatever I can to help him".
@@daverobson3084 it was too clear to be seen by people like you. Didn't his facial expression gave the slightest hint about this to you? Didn't his way of saying "martha won't die tonight" showed his desperation of getting redemption?
@@DivvayKhatri 1-You could hardly see his face and his expression hardly changed. 2-His expression could be for any reason of "Hey I shouldn't be killing this guy" so reading in that it was exactly because of what the OP stated was.....reading in. Saying that Bruce " saw himself in the position of the man that killed his parents" is reading in and stating that Bruce never made any connection with taking another life until he found out that Superman had a mother, something that he never had a reason to doubt, even if said human was an alien because as far as he knows Kryptonians also have parents. this might work work with another character . One which does not think about things nearly as much as the ( normally) very complex one of Batman does, but, not with Batman. And nothing in this explains why Superman wanted Batman's help in the first place or why he trusts him to be the sole protector of his mother moments after Batman was trying to murder him( or why Superman decided to fight Batman at all when he could have simply ignored any of his attacks up until the Kryptonite instead of explaining himself). Again . this stuff could work with " dumber characters". Ones known for acting more out of emotion or desperation, but not with these two.
You are probably the only person who accurately describes parts of movies that either confuse people or things people get just wrong. In this case, I'm referring to "Martha" but you also did it with the "plot holes" from A Quiet Place, Thanos snapping half of life away rather than doubling resources, and why Peter lost his powers in Spiderman 2. There are several things in movies that people like MatPat will spend a whole video trying to figure out that you are able to answer in less than 2 minutes. You sir, are VERY good at your job!
I'm so glad that this video was made because I actually enjoyed this movie so I think this is a nice change from al the criticism this movie is getting
+Stormtrooper is one word pls respect Then we just different opinion since this and MoS are the first time I don't dislike Superman. By the way, good or bad, is still an opinion. You can say that Pulp.Fiction is an awful movie while Fast and.the furious is a good movie. It's just opinion.
+Elliot Perera Lol don't think art is a "special" or good term, art is simply someone expressing themselves, A horrible movie( im not talking BvS) could be called art
We didn't get a Batman vs. Superman movie, we got a Justice League trailer with a coupe of neat moments. Batfleck was good. Movie is a 5/10 in my honest opinion so I'll just have to agree to disagree.
Kathy Wong Not saying Marvel films aren't. Doesn't exempt this movie from suffering from that or giving it a free pass. And at least Marvel movies aren't boring for me :P.
+Kathy Wong How about they're both good? Comparing them is like saying apples are better than oranges. They're two different things even though they're similar and just because you like one doesn't mean you have to hate the other.
“we’re criminals, we’ve always been criminals” -bruce wayne. taken directly from the dark knight returns comic where so much of this movie gets its inspiration from, awesome
Anyone notice Diana role her eyes while Lex is talking about Zeus?
Love it!
I do love that there are so many characters in the DC films that are justifiably unimpressed by ideas and concepts that we, as a society, find fantastic or use as communication shorthand.
@@0lderSch00l It was that combined with the fact that he doesn't really know the full truth but he is acting like he does. Diana probably knows everything through stories told to her by her mother.
Haha he is her dad...so...
Because Lex got the story wrong.
One of the most under-appreciated things is the CGI in this movie. It was so near perfect. As corridor crew says the best CGI is the one that doesn't get noticed.
I smiled as soon as I read Corridor :)
Like Doomsday was?
Doomsday looked like ass
Yeah Doomsday doesn't look the best but he's in like the 10% last bit of the movie. All the other CGIs were great. But that's how most people treat CGI artists. They only care about the bad bits.
Like that last fight in Black Panther, despite the other good CGI bits in that movie.
Did some of you know that metallo was suppose to be the main villain for this film. And that fake doomsday was last min
You missed 140 wins for Snyder perfectly timing and syncing the terraforming scenes from both films. Everything is accurate to the second, and not a single detail is missed. For example, the crashing fighter jet that flies over the staff of the planet before hitting a wall? You see it impact in front of bruce and he has to swerve out of the way of it.
That's not on Snyder. That's mostly all thanks to the hard work of VFX artists.
@@Ayoul they bring it to life but the director provides the vision
@@Ayoul and who dicided that
Zack Snyder you genuis
@@Ayoul
Zach makes a storyboard
He went to art school
He can edit things himself too
But he’s a director
He’s pretty amazing
@@Ayoul Really? You were on the ground having conversations and you were involved in the editing process and the direction given to the VFX?
I think the biggest theme of this movie is this: humanity is a choice. Batman in this version seems to have given up his humanity years ago, but Superman, despite not being a human in his DNA, is the most human of this movie’s big three.
Nicely put. It also provided a great character arc for Bruce - him realizing that Clark is much more human than him and accepting him as an ally while working on his own issues. I really liked how that was handled in JL.
And that when one loses their humanity, one can always find it again. Batman's arc in this film is a beautiful representation of that, with Superman serving as his inspiration.
To quote Christopher Reeve in Smallville "Humanity is not only about biology." This is best way non-Smallville fans to learn that.
Exactly
I've got the greatest movie idea ever
Cinemasins V Cinemawins: Dawn of Judging
Lol nice name
+cinemasins
then lex would say
.
.
negative vs positive, black vs white,wins vs sins...
Sarcasm Fever did u say black vs white? LOL
only if there is actual figthing, if the sin or the win is better the one who scores that has to punch the other in their guts...
“Weather he was dead for 5 years or 5 minutes”
Batman vs Superman released 2016, Zack Snyder’s Justice League releases 2021
Five years, cinema wins called it
But the time it takes place in is still 2017 and the original Justice League is still the canonical version.
@@xyzynx3190 let's be honest, it won't be soon, with how much people liked it better
@@xyzynx3190 bruh there was never a 2017 justice league movie
@@Kylehappy305 not quite sure what you mean because there was
There was a justice league movie in 2017?
This movie receives backlash because of two main reasons..
1. Wb cutting out important plot points and scenes
2. Wrong marketing- this movie is incredibly story driven and a lot like watchmen but it's was marketed much like an mcu movie made out of small story and a lot of action.
This movie is much like an episode from a comic. It's just incredible.
I would add to that that the title was a huge mistake. The title "Batman V Superman" title implies that the movie will be just that Thus it implants in the viewer a certain type of movie experience. The title implies it will just be another protagnist vs antagonist. However what we got in BvS was so much more. The themes really did require a much more open and questioning mindset.
@@xarzithas The title also suggests a court trial is going to take place. Forgivable.
But I'd say the biggest mistake was using a director who did not understand or like the titular characters.
@@JackDManheim you mind elaborating on how Snyde doesn't "understand" or "like" any of the characters in the movie?
Honestly they did it too soon, taking the animated movies as an example, we had 2 justice league movies and Superman also appeared on other movies, so when he died we had somewhat a greater connection with him(thats not the case for me because man of steel have a certain sentimental value , but for other people I wouldn't say the same).
They also did doomsday too soon, the vilain could have been Lex on some kind of armor he made to be godlike and you could use the fight between batman and superman as a reason for they being beaten by Lex, a Superman weakened from kryptonite, and a batman who maybe got some broken bones and 1 or 2 gunshot wounds wich would be a reason for Wonder woman to join the fight, anything other than doomsday
Every DC movie sucks except Aquaman and Wonder Woman. And before you call me a MArVeL FanBoY I've watched all the dc movies more than twice.
Forget a win:
-Superman: Is she with you?
-Batman: I thought she's with you?!
I agree, loved that part!
@@PorschiaPaxton :)
Yeah that was one of the few dialogues in DCEU that didn't feel forced.
Didn’t felt forced? Did Bruce not went to Diana and tried to convince her to come to the fight like 2 or do scenes ago? Batman knew who she was and what was she doing there. She said no and then changed her mind. So Batman just forgot who she was or was the costume to good for Batman.
I always thought it was a bad joke. Out of character for Batman. Superman asking seems legit though
@@justcrapynames Nope. You either made that up or misremembered the movie because that never happened. Bruce only talks to Diana TWICE before that fight, and the first time is to get his flash drive from her. The second time is over email, and BOTH times he asked “Who are you?” to which he never got an answer.
can i point out the warehouse scene is honestly the best action scene I've seen in a while
Chris Polak - YASSSS 😎🥋🥊
That was excellent. True comic-book style Batman sequence. Not like the clunky, slow fisticuffs of the Dark Knight trilogy.
Someone didn't watch Captain America: The Winter Soldier.
Darkchainzz I see your point, especially the part about the shaky cam, but, imho, I still think that the highway fight scene between Cap and Bucky was one of the best cherographed action sequences to come from a superhero movie.
Bryan Koh Why Marveltards are in every DC videos and trying to be smart ?
I thought the cinema release was a disappointment, but after watching the extended version I came to the conclusion that Snyder made a brilliant film.
Tony BMW Same! It’s one of my favorite movies and I say it’s a masterpiece.
I just wish what we got (Justice League) lived up to what was set up in this movie, but that doesn’t matter.
YES!! Its one of my favorite top movies. I had a friend finally watch it. Granted, he watched the Ultimate Edition, HE LOVED IT!!! He couldn't believe he never watched it.
@@djstuntfox the movie is aging BRILLIANTLY. I watched it yesterday (UE) and god the movie is GREAT. Better than so many other superheroe movies.
@@pablomaybe6111 I think so many people are just used to the Marvel formula, which works for them, but DC has ALWAYS been on the darker side. I appreciate that Man of Steel and BvS was so gritty. Even WW is about war and what takes to be on a hero's journey. Brilliant stuff!
@@djstuntfox i'm glad you guys liked it
CinemaWins is like a hot cup of honey-scented tea after a night of guzzling booze and picking fights. It just washes all of the cynicism, vitriol and bad taste out of your mouth so you can see things in a much more clearer and positive light.
Well said.
+
agreed
+
yeah, true, ... but Killing feels better !
Can we all just appreciate the Batmobile chase scene shows how 20 years of Batman being around has made criminals ABSOLUTELY TERRIFIED of him, the bad guys in that scene use military grade weapons and none of them even SCRATCH the batmobile which would put out the message "to criminals Batman is scary" well enough on it's own but then you remember these are Gotham criminals which means that Batman has made criminal so scared that they now actively shell out for military grade hardware and as I recall A ROCKET LAUNCHER!! To me the Batmobile chase is one of the best examples of show don't tell I've ever seen
I do love the final evolution of batman, he's gone from idealistic to driven and now obsessed. He's older, so, like most of us do as time goes on, he cut the BS. He's not as fast as he used to be, but he's strong and cunning and he makes that work for him. In this film he's stripped down to the core of what he is, which is a dangerous, mission oriented, serial assailant.
Other then him breaking his rule,I like everything about this movie
@@ahsanashfaq4430 but his whole arc was him realising that breaking his rule was wrong. His arc is of redemption.
@@HUMAN-fq5ff like Zuko, one of if not the best redemption arc ever made
@@HUMAN-fq5ff I'm all for a more brutal Batman but it doesn't completely add up in universe. If he's killing thugs then why doesn't he kill villains like the Joker?
What about the moment when Lex is talking about Prometheus anf Zeus, and Diana has that annoyed face. Lol. She was Zeus's daughter after all.
I never noticed that. Haha, that's brilliant :)
Zeanne SJ Holy shit
Yup lmao
I feel so bad for Zack Snyder. WB in their greed have hacked his vision on two occasions. Every scene feels like a painting and the score is incredible. I love that he takes risks and that the characters are grounded. Sad to see him leave the DCEU, i will really miss his style.
Well, if the DCEU and WB get their shit together and they ever eventually lead up to a Darkseid movie, they know who to call to direct.
True.
@@ethanjones1327 he is able to tell a coherent narrative.
Hahaha you just explain Disney 😂.
@@DynestiGTI what more of that mouse trap money eh.
What really sucks is that all the negative critics of this movie is probably what made the studio feel forced to take more executive actions on justice league, which ended up butchering the entire thing.. :\
I personally really liked the older Bruce portrayed by Affleck, more tainted and dark, as well as the BvS all over.
Well that's easy Disney paid off the critics too put down a great epic first superheros, before marvel bullshit characters call civil war than Dawn of Justice
Damn I really wanted to see Snyder's original vision. He explained that Flash appearing to Bruce in his cave was a badly timed time jump from the future. Knightmare vision is actually the distant future where Lois has been killed by Darkseid which causes Superman to give into the anti-life equation. So Cyborg, Flash and Bruce tried to send Flash back in time to warn Bruce that Lois is they key and this time they had to send Flash to the batcave right before Darkseid boomtubes in there to kill Lois.
@@moist_captain i 50/50d that lool
y'know, a 5 movie saga doesn't sound that bad at all. I don't need 20+ movies to enjoy one extra special movie they've been building up to. Like did we need 4 solo movies for the A-team or 12+ for the expendables? I remember when i was trying to marathon lord of the rings for the second time i felt exhausted by the time i was halfway done with return of the king. I can't imagine doing the mcu much less have the patience to even try. Movie's are not tv episodes and probably shouldn't be treated as such because thats a very risky as fuck move and expensive as balls. look at the failed monsters universe, Ghost busters, and Sony's amazing spider verse. at least Snyder got all the way to justice league despite that being a Frankenstein of a movie. If his daughter didn't commit suicide (God rest her soul) he probably would have stayed and fought back harder against those WB execs. Now that WB's got a new CEO hopefully they'll listen to the fans. and if they don't, i won't be surprised if Zack would be done with them because they've screwed with his vision since Watchmen.
erlend halvorsen i likes justice league but then again I watch movies for fun and not to critique them
I like how everyone is appreciating this movie a whole lot more now.
whos everyone? most people still dont like this movie and realize the inaccuracies
I mean there are decent parts, but there are scenes that ruined the movie
This keeps happening with Snyder's work, Sucker Punch comes to mind. There are still things about it I don't like, for instance, I get the Martha moment, still think it was not as "smart" as people make it out to be. But yeah, I appreciate this more now than when it first came out.
@@itzsamic are you kidding me? This movie keeps aging like fine wine and most critics and fans like it (Ultimate Edition obviously)
@@doctordoom1860 How is the movie "aging like fine wine"? its still as bad as it was 4 years ago. The characters are still just as inaccurate and poorly written. "most critics and fans like it" Source?
Seriously, why can't there be more people like you in the world? You show great levels of optimism in your videos, while also giving reviews at the end that feel FAR more professional and authentic than what a good number of "professional" critics.
SPREAD THE WORD OF CINEMAWINS AND HIS RIGHTEOUS TRUTHS!!!
I really didn't think watching the ultimate edition would change much but I was wrong. I haven't watched the theater version since. The directors cut is an awesome movie and WB needs to learn to just let the directors do their job.
I enjoyed what I saw in the theater even though it left a rather bad taste in my mouth. Then I saw the UE. Never saw the theatrical version ever again.
Brian Rose WB just needs an actual editing department. The Ultimate Edition was awesome, but I did see a lot that could've been taken out.
Brian Rose same for the most part. after some thought, I think the theatrical is good, but has less hand-holding for the audience
The thing with Zack Snyder's movies is that his extended versions are always miles better than the theatrical version.
Have you seen the director's cut of Watchmen? It's nearly 4 hours long. No joke! :)
Aha - thanks for clearing that up! :)
FINALLY someone explained the Martha thing.
still garbage though
More like 'underexplained.' Honestly, the only difference between the Martha scene and Stark's "No, he killed my parents' is that Disney spent more screen time blatantly spelling out Stark's psyche and spoon feeding viewers.
like you? racist communist. people like you are the reason why there is war.
+artemisfowl52 Huh?
+artemisfowl52 your butthurt is showing.
Something you missed that I felt should count is Bruce's reaction when Alfred talks about "...makes a man cruel"...
Was obviously an admonishment of Bruce's descent into what I'd call madness and Affleck's reaction really sold their relationship to me more than some pithy comment or whatever.
Their interactions overall are some of my favourite parts of this movie.
Totally agree with you. Another scene was when Bruce Wayne unlocks the photo of wonder woman from world war2. As he looks at that picture, there is no dialogue in the scene, but he leans back in his chair (with WW bgm playing in the background) and you can see it on Afflecks face. In that scene you can see Bruce's whole perception of reality or the world he lives in is changing, he was just coming to terms with supes(alien) inhabiting our world and then he sees the wonder woman pic. I thought that was another masterful scene by Zack and Affleck, no dialogues no spoon feeding but just pure acting to convey the story.
"I must be cruel only to be kind". Hamlet.
Yeah and the Martha scene pulls him back in
I thought that was great
Hi friends, I’m seeing that one of the biggest issues in the comments is that Clark said “Martha” not “Mom.” I glossed over that because I thought it was self-explanatory. Bruce had just talked about Superman’s alien parents…So “save my mom” wouldn’t have accomplished anything. Also, he genuinely hoped Bruce would save his mother after he killed him….So he’d need a name. And if you watch the scene (I cut right before it, unfortunately) it sounds like he’s trying to say, "Kent" as Batman pushes down on his throat. It seemed so clear I didn’t realize people took issue with it.
Love your videos! But you also have to realize that when it comes to an easily criticized movie, there's a big mob mentality. People call this "the worst movie ever" as if there haven't been Norm of the North's or Movie 43's out there. People don't like using their brains to figure things out. Snyder is a visual director, but instead of paying attention to what the visual portray, they write it off as more Snyder "style over substance" crap. It's frustrating.
I was just about to mention why saying "mom" is stupid...batfleck in his rage would've paid no mind if Clark said "save my mom" because he wouldn't care... He doesn't even mention that it's his mother, Lois does... Supes didn't care about trying to save himself by making himself more human, it's just that he genuinely wanted to make sure that his mom can be saved, and he does this with what he thinks is his last breath...
+CinemaWins
My explanation was Superman and Clark Kent relate to people differently in front of other people. Clark would call Martha as "mom" say, in front of neighbors or friends. Superman would address his mom as Martha or Mrs Kent or crazy old lady in front of the same people, and Martha would slap his face in private LOL
I didn't knew that. Oh well, I guess I'm gonna have to stick with the ultimate edition, then. Nice video, though.
Isnt Batman supposed to be the world's greatest detective? So, he should have known about Supes and his alter ego, shouldnt he? And also, doesnt Superman possess super hearing as well?So, no matter where they kept Martha, if she were not gagged (which she wasnt) and could talk even a little bit (she did), Supes should have found her in an instant.
Batman was portrayed exactly how I always wanted him to be.... dark, brooding and flat out scary. This Batman did what rogue one did for Darth Vader.... it made me actually fear him if he were to actually exist. Zack did great could not care less how the haters feel. This movie was awesome.
Use it was
Screw the Haters .
FACTS!!!
IamATN
You like Batman killing people and being a dumbass? Yeah no.
@@tannerlawley8435 Batman killing will always be better than hypocritical comic book batman
“I hope the studio learns from this next time and just released the final cut.”
Haha haha
"That one didn't age quite so well"
-Jontron
In an interview Zach Snyder confirmed that the real Doomsday is out there so we get to see the real monster
Really? Where?
@@Metalora ua-cam.com/video/Abwykq-cWVE/v-deo.html
They should have saved the death of superman for the real doomsday rather than putting it in this film
I do hope to see that beast one day.
I was sadly mislead that Doomsday would fight Uxas in the history lesson for ZSJL...
@@thenoirknight5729 That…..is a freaking awesome concept. I love the Snyder cut but that so should have been in that.
WB: Let's hire Zach Snyder to do an epic job with BvS.
Also WB: We're still gonna screw with the movie in post and ruin it. The director obviously doesn't know what he's doing and we have to fix it, because...you know, it's our money, so we get to ruin all the things.
What are you smoking? WB's producers when they viewed the film gave it a standing ovation. At the end of the day this is Zack Snyder's vision. The ultimate editions does add more stuff to it but this is stuff Snyder made the decision to cut out. Both versions are his vision. If you want to complain about altering his vision look at Justice League that became a Joss Whedon popcorn film without any of the pathos Snyder uses.
@Ryan Irwin- Diehl Who shot YOUR dog?!
@Ryan Irwin- Diehl wow, just wow
Why does WB have to ruin everything
@@lzylay they like money, like Mr. Greedy Mouse did to the Star Wars franchise
I'm glad I found this channel. I needed a little less negativity in my life.
Precisely how I felt about Suicide Squad.
Hugh Chester I enjoy him way more than that pretentious trash Cinnamon Sins. Far too much "hate bandwagon" nonsese that's been a trend lately.
@@scottreacher is not just humour?
@@ufg1510 Using negative to get some laugh ok bruh how edgy
@@serenity0n0 is edgy talking trash about a movie? is like ofensive or something?
What everybody literally forgots:
DCEU is not MCU
Yeah, one of those at least tries to stick to the source material
@@OhNoTheFace DCEU?
@@tavenmartin9536 Sarcasm?
@@arizz620 well they stick to source material too but ur gonna say MCU
Right! MCU is actually good
The doomsday fight was one hundred percent necessary. The threat he posed was the exact situation batman was afraid of. The irony is not only was superman not the threat, but he sacrificed himself to stop that threat. Absolutely agree with you otherwise I just had to point that out.
Also for the Martha scene, "Martha" was his dad's last word
Along with his mothers name of course, as you said
Which pretty much throws the entire "OMG he was just saying Martha so as to make Batman know his mother was human and the fact that their mothers both had the same name was just a coincidence with no real bearing on Batman's ultimate decision to spare Superman" argument out the window.
I think everyone gets that. I respect the effort as a call back, but not the execution. That's not the argument. The argument it doesn't make any sense for Superman while he's about to die to say "You're letting him kill Martha" and not "My mother"
What would make him think he'd care about a random woman from an entirely different city named "Martha" when he's pretty much about to be murdered in cold blood because Bruce came off the entire movie as a sociopathic douche? Please excuse me, I came here to compliment the movie, but that needs to be done with realistic respect for its flaws as well as it's strengths.
If he said "My mother, Martha." It would serve both, not only Bruce being pulled into the realization that Clark is "human" with a famliy and all, but that the two of them aren't so different. Having him blurt it out that way came off as forced to many viewers that's all. I still commend the *effort* though, just not the execution.
I apologize if I come off disrespectful I didn't come here like I know some people do to hate and throw salt at a potentially good or even great film. Fun Fact: Martha is my own great grandmother's name.
I have thought about it myself and came up with a possibility a while back. We have to remember that while Batman did not know of Superman's secret identity, Superman did know of Batman's by the time of their fight and must have already become familiar with his background.
Earlier in their fight, Batman did recognize that Superman must have had parents ( remember when he told Superman 'I bet your parents taught you that you mean something, that you're here for a reason') but he probably just thought of them as alien too or that he probably didn't thought of them as highly as Batman valued his own family; so Superman just mentioning his mother by 'mother' would not have done nothing to break Batman out of his kill rage. By using Batman's mother's own name, however, Clark knew that it would force Bruce to listen to him even for a minute, which sort of worked as it planted doubt in Bruce just long enough for Lois to come in and clarify who the Martha Clark was referring to was.
I think that Clark saying Martha WAS the best way to get Batman to listen to him as , by that moment, Batman was to focused in killing Superman to listen to reason. He was fully driven by emotion, so the only way to break him out of it was bringing another emotion to the table. And what better emotion than his own family?
Of course, Superman had no way of knowing that 'Martha' was also the last word uttered by Thomas Wayne and had the unexpected consequence of enraging Batman further but this also played out in Batman's own change of heart ultimately. Batman earlier acknowledged that Superman was not a direct threat to the world to Alfred, but carried on because of the 'even 1% chance' he would be. By uttering 'Martha' right before being killed, Superman became Thomas Wayne in Bruce's mind: a man who had done no real evil and whose life was extinguished by a criminal. Batman called himself a criminal earlier and realized that he had become the 'man with the gun' and could no longer justify himself in what he was doing, specially when, throughout the movie, it was obvious that the main reason he wanted to kill superman was to make his life as Batman (born out of the death of his parents) mean something.
That was a lengthy explanation lol but I think that was what the scene was trying to convey. This is how it all clicked in my head anyways.
Rafael Aguirre I usually don't reply to UA-cam comments, but that is a stellar analysis!
You did this movie justice CinemaWins!
Especially with that Martha situation.
pun-intended
Re-watching this because still waiting on him to do Justice league. The line he says in this video about how he hopes the studio learns their lesson really hurts. Because they didn't learn their lesson. They put out a butchered movie just to make a bonus for themselves. Once again destroying Zach Snyder's vision.
The problem is that Snyder's vision resulted in a Man of Steel movie that turned off a lot of people, and then his vision in this movie just polarized things more. He's not a mass-appeal director. Honestly he's not a director at all, he's a cinematographer. If the studio had marketed this DCEU thing as more of a niche universe styled after Injustice, it could have worked. Unfortunately they had to try beating Marvel at their own game with movies that didn't abide by that game's rules, thus Marvel wins by default.
Also this was an unpopular opinion but a lot of Snyder's larger plan was weak (IE Evil Superman ala Injustice, Bruce dead without a solo film etc)
exactly
@@alejandromavarez164 dude wtf are you on Aquaman was a success and widely accepted as a good movie. Shazam is just as good if not better based on audience and critic reviews.
@@ItsButterBean1020 Superman was never going to be evil (He would've been mind controlled for like half of the fifth movie). Bruce was only going to sacrifice himself at the very end, with Affleck's Batman movie (Remember when he was directing it?) still getting made in between them.
As time goes on, you learn to appreciate this film. Zack Snyder makes some of the most underrated superhero films.
Some of the most underrated and misunderstood directors.
All the movie needed was the proper build up. If there were 3-4 movies before it. Setting up Injustice would have been amazing
I enjoyed Zack Snyder's DC films. I get that not everyone likes it because they believe it's not comic book accurate or lacks humor and comedy. But I still enjoyed them.
The batmobile just pinging of superman like a toy car will never get old for me 😂
@@triplemoyagames4195 i get why Many feel this way especially since we just saw marvel do it but my point has always been DC usually starts a new run by introducing the justice league and then going deeper into the individual heroes
Some one actual explained BVS and made me want to watch it again
IKR
Ahahahahahaha, to watch a god and "the world's best detective"? bwahahahahahaha.
I don't understand why are you laughing? because you really look stupid
It's a great movie
Don't watch it again. It's a bad movie
This is by far the best representation of how BVS was meant to be. If WB hadn't succumbed to trying to be like the MCU there is no telling how JL would have turned out.
you mean movies that are dear i say it.... are good?
@@SgtKaneGunlock right, did you watch this video?
I remember when this video first came out and there were so many people taking offense to what he gave a win to in this movie. DC fanboys who get mad when critics don't like their movies are annoying. But people like the original commentors who took offense to someone enjoying Batman v Superman are even worse. And guess what was the big issue they had. "Oh no! How can you like this movie when I think Civil War was better?" Lucklily now the comments have softened up a bit and become more people with logic who either agreed or simply disagreed. But before, this comment section was pure cancer. If you're wondering why I say this, it's because I'm on my third time watching this video.
Ha! So you're the guy racking up the view counter! Yeah, as the views slowed, so did the pure hatred. Lesson learned though. It was never really my intention to rile so many people up. I made the video for the fans not realizing the number of people who already had their minds made up would watch it and be super duper, duper insulted.
Hopefully I can assuage the disdain when I get around to Suicide Squad. But probably not... You wouldn't believe how many death threats I got that were auto-spammed. Some people really don't like the women...in my....family...for some reason....? Really odd. Oh well. Glad you like it!
CinemaWins In my opinion, while Suicide Squad had interesting characters (mostly) and cool visuals, it had terrible editing (apparently staple of Warner Brothers' theatrical releases now) and a poor script that was the product of David Ayer being rushed by Warner Brothers. Despite this, I really am excited to see how you win Suicide Squad! Keep up the great work. And tell Jim to stop messing with your script!
"Oh no! How can you like this movie when I think Civil War was better?"
Who ever said that? You're making strawman arguments. People disliked this movie because they disliked the movie. And being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian is just as un-thinking as following others for its own sake.
+CHP A lot of the earlier comments in this video were people saying exactly that (give or take a few strong words and unnecessary overuse of capital letters). I can understand why people may dislike the film, but yeah there were people legitimately taking offense to this video and using Civil War as why this video is wrong. We understand you don't like it, but you don't have to take offense to a video stating what the film did right.
James Lewis Fair enough. I really didn't like the film and found the characterization completely wrong. I also found this vid to be slightly half-baked, having nothing to do with Civil War. I guess, I took greater offense to your comment than I should've. Apologies.
Holy shit. The Martha scene actually makes sense now
9:34 THANK YOU! FINALLY! Someone cleared it up!
It's always made sense. For me at least.
Always did lol
Martha!!!!
@@enlightenmentdoesntcomeeas5337 same! Before I even realized that the mothers jad the same name. I recognized bruce saw his humanity
I've loved other explanation of Martha scene from one guy, there is his comment:
If you connect the dots in the nightmare scene where superman says, "she was my world" at that time, I believe it to be referring to Martha Kent not Lois Lane.
Notice his reaction to when lex divulges the information of his mother being held hostage and he just about to lose it.
So therefore, if you connect the dots of batman saving Martha Kent, batman believes that the nightmare scenario would no longer be a possibility and that 1% chance is no longer on the horizon.
Also note, Lois being the key (what flash says in the other dream sequence) Lois was the key to finding out that Martha was the name of superman's mother. Without her interviening in that scene, superman would be as good as dead.
Once batman found out, did you not notice the emotional change?
So he found out new information and his mindset went from murder to saving instead.
Smart man
That man deserves unlimited rings *mind blown*
How any Batman fan can say the Martha scene is dumb blows my mind. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the character. What I would say is true rather is that the fight itself was anti-climatic.The fight needed to be longer and have more back and forth. Another 10 mins IMO, with Batman really struggling. Having said that the fact is from the very beginning of the film it is established again that Batman fall into darkness came from that moment. He's driven by the murder of his parents, his whole life has become a distraction, vengeance to get back at those who robbed him of his childhood, Batman would do anything to have that childhood, to have his parents back. I.e. the fact superman's mum is Martha, Batman feels that by saving her in some ways he can finally do what he always wanted, save his mother from tragedy.
The thing that pissed me off more in that scene and that really should have been executed better is, why on Earth would Superman suddenly start calling his Mother Martha?
The way I would have cleaned that up is Clark investigating Bruce before the fight and actually finding out about his parents tragic death. That way it would have made sense that Clark actually purposely uses that information to get into Batman's psyche and end the fight peacefully. It would have given superman the depth and intelligence that he's been missing from this series and also it would have been a great way to show off Clark's skills as a journalist. It also would fit in great with Superman's character that he found a way to get to Bruce without hurting him. Essentially it would have in some ways made the fight a draw, which would have been a far more satisfying ending. Batman would have been shown to be able to take down Superman in a fight which would have satisfied the Batman fanboys, and superman would have been shown to be smart enough to end the conflict peacefully which would have satisfied Superman fans.
+John Paul Mokuolu So basically being a Batman fan should blind you to shitty, contrived writing?
Danny O'Gara Yeah what a great, challenging answer. I said why the scene was disappointing and how it was executed badly. But as I said, Batman's motivation for stopping the fight is completely consistent with his character.
I'm sure this won't stop this comment from constantly coming up, but the reason Superman says "Martha" and not "Mom" is because he wasn't currently being Clark Kent. He was Superman. As unbelievable as it may be for Bruce to not know Superman's secret identity, he didn't at that point. So he was still protecting his secret identity. I thought that was obvious. That's why I didn't mention it. And if I had to defend the reasoning behind Bruce not knowing Superman was Clark, why would he assume he'd need an alter ego? He sees him as an evil god alien, why would he ever pretend to be human?
That's exactly what I say at first. Batman never knew that Clark Kent was Superman, for Bruce Clark was just another silly reporter taking side with Supes(Although I was kinda expecting to see this comment on the video) But you know, hate train and stuff.
+CinemaWins What do you think of the interpretation that due to Batman applying more pressure on Superman's throat the moment he said Martha, Superman was prevented from saying the rest of her name, and instead made a guttural sound? It's kind of out there, but interesting nonetheless.
CinemaWins I want to add something extra. The idea of the scene is not as wrong or as far fetched as most people think. This is a fiction world with rules of awesomeness all around, so an scene like that is perfect. The problem is the presentation. I'd just rewatch this movie yesterday, (because of this channel BTW) and the problem of the scene is the juxtaposition. The scenes that accompany the main scene are just the previous scenes from the same movie, as if someone wasn't sure the idea was clear. (I think people are not going to remember Martha is the name of Bruce's mom, let's repeat those scenes JUST IN CASE). If those scenes are replaced with scenes from the memories of a child Bruce with his mom, and maybe Clark with his mom, it would have driven the idea home. But they way is presented you feel like they are force feeding you something.
Save his secret identity by revealing his mom's name and ask Batman to go save her? Wouldn't Batman then know who Superman is simply by looking up who Martha Kent's son is?
This is one of the things I love about this movie: it's attention to detail. Because of that you're able to rewatch this movie and discover something you didn't need know before. This also allows for lots of deep thinking
wait...was...was I not suppose to love this movie when I saw it? Cause I love this movie
Which version did you watched? Ultimate Edition was better.
U were not supposed to.
Only like the ultimate cut okay. The studio is a bunch of dicks
I love it too. No shame.
Same I with out a doubt love the DCE no shame
Does anyone else return here once in s while to rewatch and recharge?
So underrated.
What about the moment "I promise you, Martha won't die tonight". Awesome!!!!
Or "You're not brave, men are brave" so sick!
Adrián Ponce I felt was Bruce way of redemption of saving his own mom
@@jaydinshuya3495 men are brave if they have kryptonite on there hands and wearing an armoured bat suit
@@user-ux1ll3tw9l or when they face things they can't defeat easily by using heat vision or flying as fast as sound
@@user-ux1ll3tw9l oh shut the fuck up and quit reaching. He was going up against the most powerful man in the world and you expected Batman to fight him with his bare hands?!?!? Of course he needed to be prepared and armed with kryptonite. That's called being smart and not a moron. And even then Batman knew it was suicide going up against Superman and he STILL went through with it. That IS brave.
i can't believe i am saying this but i love the martha scene now
Snyder and Terrio need to do a video explaining that from their POV to everyone. At first I thought, "Oh yeah. Their moms do have the same name." Then I watched a video or two that had people explain their take and I've understood it more. Maybe a couple of lines could've been added showing Batman realizing his humanity. But I'm fine with it.
Yeah but its all there on the screen. explaining everything the audience is terrible. frankly its not that hard to get.
+Duane Drew Didn't explain anything, terrible movie and scene.
Martha scene still sucks ass. No excuses.
IKR! I totally didn't get it before.
Thank you for understanding the point of the Martha scene!!! It seemed like I was the only one to get it.
I know right? It's like people turned their brains off. This movie isn't straightforward like Marvel. It uses artistry to paint a story
Wow! I never thought of it like that! Thank you SOOO Much for opening my eyes to the whole Martha thing!
I never even had an issue with it. I didn't even know it was an "issue" until I started seeing the reviews and haters online lol.
+DaGerminator Yeah humans are far too easily influenced by others. That's why I avoid reading reviews until after I watch something.
+Mr Nive like the WORLDS GREATEST detextive couldnt figure out that superman is a hero aftwr saving the world and repeated clips of supes saving lives! Yet realising that superman has parents makes bats realise supes is good? Wtf? All criminals have mothers? Infact bats dont give a crap about bad guys loving there moms!? Even lois figures out supes is a good guy and shes just a journo! Lex figured it out too but THE WORLDS GREATEST DETECTIVE had to attempt murder to see superman was a good in him? No thanx, cinema sins did this better!
I’m gutted that they completely changed the dceu because of the backlash to this movie. If the studio just went with the original vision, both suicide squad and justice league would have been a lot different, maybe better.
Suicide Squad came out the same year as BVS
@@CMGThePerson months later
"People hate what they can't understand" Basically the martha scene.
People hate what they can not understand .
Filimon Galogavros Or maybe people are justified from this shit excuse of a film
@Snapyrock Batman sees the human side of Clark Kent / Superman and changes his mind .
@Snapyrock Batman sees the human side of Superman .
Lets just agree...that Superman could've told Batman that "My Mother is kidnapped".....That fight makes zero sense
When I watched this movie for the first time, what CinemaWins says about the whole "Martha" thing was exactly what I thought! I never interpreted it as Batman standing down simply because the names were the same, his actions following the revelation made complete sense to me, I understood completely, and I'm glad CinemaWins could explain it more coherently here than I ever could!
_GOD_, it just feels so good to hear this...
13:14 The fact that people got angry at that Steppenwolfe moment was weird. They had hinted at darkseid with the omega symbol and parademons since the trailers. Instead of people saying the DCCU was just copying the MCU by showing the head honcho of the whole series, they showed one of his most well known generals. How would Steppenwolfe be a problem? them showing steppenwolfe was awesome. Them having steppenwolfe look more demonic than his humanoid comic counterpart is even more awesome.
he's wearing a helmet. him if he does look demonic then it's stupid because he's not a demon
John Harmon Doomsday isn't a cave troll but that's what they made him looks like. Look closely at the steppenwolfe scene, those horns are attached to his head That isn't a helmet. He looks more like the kursed dark elf black guy in thor the dark world than he looks like a guy with a helmet. Also being demonic doesn't make him a demon just like being humanoid doesn't make him human or dragonic makes him a dragon. He may look it but it doesn't mean he is.
+John Harmon He's from Apokolips. Home of darkseid a Anti-God.
Hes going to look demonic
+Crimson Head98 New god**
What you are not taking into account is most people will have very limited exposure to DC outside the movies, how are people meant to know who the hell Steppenwolfe and Darkseid are? The whole dream/Flash sequence is not explained at all. Flash does not even exist in the DCEU at this point in the movie and the only sequence in which Flash appears later is him in a different set of clothing. Even with a vague knowledge of DC I still did not know that Flash could travel through time. Those demon things are also very confusing for a lot of people simply because they appear in what is a very weird dream sequence. How is the general public meant to know what Darkseid symbol is or what a Parademon is? This would of course not have been an issue if it was a movie aimed at the niche market of just DC fans but when you aim for the general pubic you need to put some sort of explanation in, else you just end up with an audience and critics which is totally confused and will give bad reviews and spread bad word of mouth.
If you watch all lex luthor scenes, this luthor is still young before getting older and more serious and cold
Yep. We see a more stable Lex at the end of Justice League. Actual character development.
Superman was forced to hide his powers until he was an adult, felt alienated during his childhood (he was literally an alien), the only survivor of a dead species, the moment he decides to come out the world's facing a threat that too from his own kind, and then he's finally forced to kill his only remaining link to his heritage.
When he says "my world doesn't exist anymore" it's not just Krypton blowing up or the world hating Superman, he was also sore about having to kill a fellow Kryptonian and destroying the Genesis chamber. Humans don't understand him, and there isn't a single Kryptonian left so he felt he was truly alone and a responsible for destroying Krypton. Also he did that because there was no hope for Kryptonians here, either by conquest or coexistence.
See you don't always need spoon-fed expositions about why somebody's so damn hopeless and depressed. All you need is to follow the story a bit carefully and put yourself in the character's shoes. These aren't infallible comic characters. These are comic characters living in the real world.
Mohammad Ekram Faruque Fahim yup
@Yasser Bostan There's nothing 'mysterious' about anything. It's pretty clear IMO. All the facts were presented to the viewer. All you have to do is put yourself in his shoes and it becomes very clear. That said, the film even has multiple scenes with Superman discussing with Lois and his mother about various stuff, so it's not like it's just a huge data dump from Snyder.
The issue is that people watch the movie thinking it's the Superman that they've always known him as, when it's really when Superman first getting into the superhero world. When you throw away these preconceptions and just take things at the face value, it's very easy to follow. That's probably why the film did so well overseas compared to the domestic market (pretty much WB's best performing film ever), people who didn't grow up with the characters were watching their first DC movie and thus were able to enjoy it the way Snyder wanted it to be.
@@taoliu3949 so, people still prefers the Superman that can't use his underwear properly rather than this?
@DarkAvatar it's not exactly mysterious. I do agree with most of your argument, but this particular film was not so mysterious in the way it told its story.
@DarkAvatar Um, the dream sequence is just an Easter egg, at best maybe foreshadowing a future film. Like you said, if one never read the comics, they wouldn't know what the symbol meant, cool, you don't need to have read the comics to understand what was going on. As far as the audience is laymen are concerned, it is just a nightmare that batman is having due to his PTSD.
That said, the comics and the DCAMU and New 52 also went straight into Justice League, so it's not like WB is completely doing their own stuff here.
If you disagree with what I'm about to say, DON'T BOTHER REPLYING.
Clark had no idea that Bruce's mom was named Martha. He just said what he could while Batman was standing on his neck with a kryptonite spear. Batman heard "Martha...!" and basically went "What did you just say?" he released a bit of weight to let Clark talk "Save... Martha...!" Bruce, who sees Clark as a dangerous, murderous alien, thinks "No. Martha's dead. Hes trying to trick me. Right?" So he demands to know why Clark said the name. Lois explains that Clark's mother is Martha Kent. Batman then thought "His mother...? This alien has a human mother?"
In other words: THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINK!!!!! What would you have said if your mom was in danger of dying and there was a guy in a metal suit pressing his boot against your throat with a spear to your face?
The actual fight between Batman and Superman seems underwhelming with Batman managing to kick Superman's ass quite easily thanks to Kryptonite, despite the hype of which DC icon would win. But if one were to view the film with Batman as the villain/antagonist of the story, the fight's short and one-sided nature actually makes sense. It's not about who would win in a fight, but rather about just how far Batman has fallen in his vendetta against Superman. His dominance over Superman is not of a heroic underdog fighting back against a god, but rather a cruel bully harming a good man pleading for his aid to save his mother from being killed, going against everything Batman fought for. Batman had already lost the moment he started fighting while Superman ultimately won by making Batman realize what he has done.
THIS. IS. NOT. MARVEL.
Get you mind out of the MCU and into the DCEU. This is different.
If you disagree, don't bother replying.
Because saying " my mother( which would have made faaaaaaaaaaar more sense) is so much more difficulty to say than "Martha"?????????????
In your own words.
THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINK!!!
The criticism has always been about the WHY Superman says"Martha" and NOT about WHY it works on Batman. Defenders of this movie get it wrong CONSTANTLY. They defend tha "why it works on Batman" while ignoring ( or , in your case, give some incredibly weak defense of) WHY Superman would even say what he did how he did.
Also, we just can;t understand why Superman ever thought that Batman, the guy he branded as a violent, borderline psychopathic, vigilante would be any help in finding/saving his mother.
@@daverobson3084 You know what would have happened if he said save my mom? It'd have gone In one ear and out the other. Batman clearly just stated not 2 mins beforehand he doesn't give a shit about Superman's parents.
"I bet your parents taught you, that you mean something, that your here for a reason. My parents taught me a different lesson... dying in the gutter for no reason at all. They taught me the world only makes sense if you force it to."
Batman would probably just assume he's talking about his alien mother, and proceed to impale him through the face. So how do you get through to the crazed vigilante who's claims to be doing this for the survival of the human race? You appeal to his humanity and make her a person. On the off chance Batman goes through with it and kills Superman, at least Batman would still have a name to go off of and not be all like "Who's Mom?"
Plus, there's supposedly a deleted scene not seen in the Ultimate Edition were Clark does some research on Bruce and his parents on his laptop after finding out his identity at Lex's party. In it he learns Bruce's mother was named Martha, and notes the coincidence as his mother has the same name. This may lead into the scene where he calls his mother. Now, anyone running around dressed up as a bat is clearly not all there. It's been well established that Batman is fucked mentally and his parents death fucked him up, so it's possible, using this information, Superman knew Batman's mother's name was Martha and used it to his advantage. Like I said, appeal to his humanity and make her a person. I gave you two reasons as to why Superman said Martha and not mom, now take this L
@@mcmachan9867 Bunkles of Fudge!!! This is LITERALLY the best Martha explanation I have come across. Kudos Sir
@@daverobson3084 as if he had the time to call out a full sentence before some random dude in a metal suit and a spear in his hand pearses through his face. Yeah right.
He had one single moment to get something in batman's mind and that's why he used the name of the person he wanted to save
@@DivvayKhatri
Because yelling " You're letting him kill Martha!" is (somehow) NOT a full sentence.?!?
Deciding that he did not want to convey WHO was killing Martha, or who indeed Martha even was , leaving a possible situation where Batman still kills him and still has no idea who was in danger of being killed and by whom.
Why?
Because everyone in this movie is a super genius combined simultaneously with a super idiot.
I love that you took shots at CinemaSins with the "messing with my script" bits. LOVED that.
Same!!
i thought both channels were done by the same guy...
+marcos soncini I also like both channels and thought it was the same if not oh well still like both of them!
+Tom Cabler yeah I like both of them but it's funny how more people join to dislike stuff either than reviewing what's great about movies. it's like saying "yeah I disliked Interstellar a bit less than Memento, it has less crappy things"
It just came to a point where he couldn't defend it. That's what the joke was. At least as I see it.
"Everyone running away while Bruce Wayne runs INTO THE UNKNOWN"...
Elsa: "Some look for trouble, others don't"
thank you for not being blind! this movie was great!
Its ahead of its time. BvS will go down like scarface trashed by critics but become beloved as time goes on
I totally agree with that.
+Red Queen same
lmao ... yall joking right ? RIGHT ???
+MrGoblin20 lololol if I laugh in my own comments, you have to be wrong. That's how the Internet works right?
Thank you for explaining the Martha scene, I didn't get it at first.
A lot of people didn't because of the typical rage that comes from a first glance. I got it the first go around, just as I also got a lot of things that people were complaining about. And ftr, don't take that the wrong way, I get that sometimes we don't get things at first and I'm no exception, but a lot of people take it WAY too far.
I understood it like Batman would have, because I didn't realize both their mothers were named Martha. Of course it would throw Batman for a loop. Completely agree that it made him even more angry at first because he thought Supes was messing with him, and then realized his revenge was misguided and out of character for his ideals.
Exactly. And yeah, I noticed a while back that their mothers had the same name and I've always wondered if DC ever planned on doing something with that lol.
Jason McCloud I might have to re-watch BVS with a different mindset now. It may haven't been that bad. Still a bit bundled up messly but still.
As a non-comic book reader, I see no difference between BvS and the Avengers movies in quality and messy story telling. In fact, the Avengers is so full of meaningless action with a thin plot that I get bored. Why the DC movies are so hated while the comic book level Marvel is not seems to me ridiculous.
I remember witnessing the Martha scene and thinking this is cinematic gold, and when people made fun of it I was like sure it sounds goofy but it makes so much sense but people didn't seem to get it. Hopefully more people see this and understand that this movie is insanely good.
Benjamin Saunders exactly my sister knows the comics more than I do (maybe) and she doesn't even get it
But surely the fact that it sounds goofy means it isn’t cinematic gold? I mean, it got close by having good ideas and intentions, but the poor execution would give it cinematic silver at best.
I had no problems with this scene and even liked the beginning of the movie and some scenes were great. But an insanely good movie?
It's like there are just people who adore it and those who give it way to much hate.
Cinematic gold...I would say it's a nice watchable movie.
@@Chandlerbingeling I respect that
11:39
When doomsday looked at the Superman statue like that I was amazed. Even though he is an absolute monster designed only to kill. You can still see the anger Zod holds for Superman in doomsday. Fantastic.
It is a well established trait of Batman's character that whenever he gets too close to the edge, the memory of his parents pulls him back. As such, it's been used in every medium Batman has appeared in. What baffles me is that, for the first time in 80 years, this movie is the only time it's been met with derision.
holy shit that was really well put haha
probably because in this movie he has already killed random goons without heistating while in the others its his first time. he kills a shit ton of people in this film lmao it might have worked if he didnt
@@haseebsiddiqi3409 It's ok to not understand the movie.
@@sharendavis9216 r u dumb I understand why he doesn't kill superman but it would make way more sense if that was his first time killing someone
In the movie it is shown that he doesn't hesitate to kill random goons but he does with superman who could kill everyone if he wanted.
@@haseebsiddiqi3409 I would have just shot him, I mean for sure Superman wouldn't even try to dodge (being bulletproof and all that).
Best to ignore these small problems, every movie has them, if it works it works.
"I really hope the studio learns from this next time and just releases the original cut."
If only...
#ReleaseTheSnyderCut
They really messed up big time there
I’ve come from the future. It may be happening.
Paul Silvia I’ve come from even further in the future. It’s happening. HBO Max in 2021. We did it.
@@turtleguyfan Gentlemen, we got em.
@@turtleguyfan I've come from even further in the future, the first trailer is out and it's beautiful!
My goodness. The Martha-name-saying secene. FINALLY! Someone who actually gets it. It was one of the most powerful scenes in the movie. People don't understand it and don't want to simply because of the fact that it was more spiritual in nature. People don't handle spiritual moments in cinema well. You need to think about it a bit to understand it. You explained it great. I would only add that what happened was that Batman recognized Superman as a brother in spirit, as an ally, because he saw his father's dying wish to protect his mother, an image of the purity and good in the world, embodied in Superman (not to mention that when Superman was about to die himself he could only speak about "saving Martha" which is IDENTICAL to what Batman's dad did!). He realized that, although they are vastly different, they share the same moral values and within that moment Batman went through a rebirth - he reestablished his true identity through Superman. He became heroic once again, because in Superman he saw himself. That is just cinema gold. Why is this movie bad again?
Victor Kunchev Watch Ralphthemoviemakers review of BVS
Everybody understands the point of this scene. It's still stupid.
First of all, how does Batman doesn't know that Clark Kent has human parents? And mother with the name Martha? But still, he mentioned about Clark having a parents while they were fighting, so Batman knew that Clark no some alien-freak?
But even more, Bruce knew that Superman is not bad, but he told Alfred about "even 1 % chance" and it's alll gone because Superman has a mom?
Ringo Deathstarr Batman doesn't know Clark has human parents because he was constantly being manipulated by Lex into thinking hes a threat, and trying to know about his parents or investigating if he has human parents is not something he would need to investigate, simply because he doesn't care about his life because he thinks of him as a threat and just wants to kill him. Batman assumes Clark Kent has parents, in his imagination, he thought of superman's parents as "aliens" just like him, thinking they would also destroy the world fighting other aliens in the name of peace. That's the reason why he says "1% Chance" to Alfred because he wanted to kill Superman as soon as he gets the chance.
And its all gone Not because Superman has a mom, but because hes reminded of his mother through the name "Martha" who just like Superman tried to stop/fight the criminal from shooting her son(Batman) before dying, and therefore Batman also realizes that he has a human mother because human name. Superman knows Batman's mother's name because he investigates his whereabouts and details much earlier in the movie thinking hes a criminal killing prisoners (which was set up by Lex to cause conflict between both). And in the end, Superman uses the name "Martha" to stop him from killing him.
So, you're saying that they both were manupulated by Lutor, but Superman did investigation about his enemy and THE GREATEST DETECTIVE didn't? It's bullshit.
Ringo Deathstarr Both didn't necessarily need manipulation. Batman was manipulated, by making him witness the capitol explosion and one of his trusted people die in it, making him think superman blew up the building and killed innocent people that wanted to judge him for his acts lawfully, and made him think hes "cruel", whereas superman only needed to know if Batman is a criminal or not to keep an eye on him (which is why he warns Batman at that Batmobile chase scene) and moreover he didn't need to get manipulated because all Lex needed to do was kidnap his mother and force him to face the Kryptonite from Batman's hands (which he didn't know about). Only to show the world that a simple human can kill a God. Moreover, Batman doesn't need to investigate things about an "Alien", he only needs to know what kills Superman (Kryptonite). And Superman does need to investigate, because he thinks Batman is killing prisoners. And Superman's human parents are out of the question, because that's something Batman can never even think of to investigate, which is not really the reason why he changes in the end anyway. It was more about his own mother than Superman's mother.
Ultimate Edition is 20x better then the original.
i disagree. the original movie is good (and very good in certain areas) and didn't deserve the shitting on it got.
The ultimate edition is great movie and one of the best superhero films
Yup
@@jammygamer8961 well, in the theater edition there's a huge mistake, when at the beginning Lex's soldiers kill all of those African soldiers(?) with bullets, then Superman arrives and saves Lois. Later, they say it's Supes fault as he presumably killed those African soldiers, but how come? Superman doesn't shoot bullets. While in the ultimate edition Lex's soldiers burn those African soldiers corpses, and now you can incriminate Superman for using heat vision, and kill them.
@@artofvale_1122 good point
Wonder Woman's theme is fucking awesome
Nah
Sounds like a song out of spy kids
ulyssez guerrero ive seen spy kids many times and that makes no sense
+Gintoki Sakata you're*
Lmao guess we know who's the dumb one
Links get auto-spammed but I let this one through since it sounds absolutely nothing like WW's theme. Not even close. It's the opposite of similar.
+CinemaWins appreciate it,
We all have our opinions.
THANK YOU, DEAR FUCKING GOD, SOMEONE FINALLY GOT IT WHEN IT CAME TO THE WHOLE "Martha" SCENE! I HATE HOW MISUNDERSTOOD IT USUALLY IS! Thank you so much, seriously. ;u;
I honestly like movies where you have to pay attention. You notice something new every time you watch it. Unfortunately, DC studios seems to be forgetting this greatness and is starting to make movies that you really only need to see once. I really hope Snyder can be worked back into future projects.
The Martha part was never that bad. I was really moved when first time seeing this. People are making a meme out of this just because they need to make a meme out of this.
And the pathetic part is this shit meme is something people still think is funny.... Bunch of kids....
@@nkb5245 and no one takes that seriously or anything. They just think of it as a joke just like everything else in the mcu. And if someone shows up arguing about it then they're like "atleast it wasn't rushed". Like, wtf. A whole origin story is devoted to that one part for allowing people to understand it.
@@nkb5245 yeah basically lol.
¨people hate what they don´t understand¨
Ryan Irwin- Diehl Not the ultimate edition
I also want to add that Bruce had asked "How many of them have remained the same ?" but when Clark(e) or Superman meets him, inspite of being in such predicament, all he wanted to was talk and explain everything to him. And Batman himself had changed, Superman had not. These movies are very deep.
I so love this channel! It always makes me feel good, it is so much harder to create than to rip down. I feel soo proud just to be a fan and have you give some love to the creators of the world!
So, about the martha scene and if anyone is interested in this kind of stuff, the flashback of the waynes is a representation of bruce PTSD: post traumatic stress disorden, the scene shows you the symptoms of ptsd for unexpected outcome. (Basically unexpected surprise). I think that ben affleck did an excelent job portraying those emotions, ptsd flashback are really powerful and fulled with really heavy emotions. Doesn't matter how logical and calculative bruce can be as a character, mental illness shuts down your logical side of the brain without you even realizing.
This movies Lex Luthor gets a lot of hate, but people need to understand that their ARE different versions of him, BvS's Lex Luthor is literally pulled right out of Superman: Birthright form the clear mental issues to the long red hair.
People forget that he's lex Luthor Jr it's obvious as you notice he wouldn't shut up about his dad
Also if they went with the standard lex it would just get shit for being to close to Kevin spaceys version
the ultimate edition is amazing 9-10:)
Agreed.
The ultimate edition made an unfocus mess (but still a rather great film) into a great film.
What's the difference between the ultimate edition and the normal movie ?
The ultimate edition explains a lot of the plot points that were left out in the theatrical cut. There's also more character development.
the normal version was cut for time and was a jumbled mess which left people confused. Ultimate edition only had 30 min of extra film, but my god, it made the mess clean, the flow was amazing, and everything story wise became much more clear.
Ok. This video, this is the cinimawins video that made me realise the reason we NEED this channel. I didn't like bvs but now I watched this video....I do. This video explains the stupid sounding things and makes you realise the real point of scenes and makes you understand the movie even more.
Wait till you see why Everything Wrong With Batman Vs. Superman.
And boy even after this vid I hated it.
@@veritas4733 tbh I still kinda like this film tho. It's better than BVS IMO in every way.
Watch MovieBob's video series on this movie. BvS is one of the worst big budget blockbusters of the 21st century.
The only reason that scene was stupid to everyone was that zack didn’t really explain the scene well, but this guy and I understand the situation.
the idea behind the channel is nice and all, buuut...you shouldn't need a video analysis to understand the movie..
I'd give you a million likes if I could. Great video with great in-depth explanations. Still can't believe how people didn't understand the movie. First time I saw the movie I understood everything. Literally. To me the motivations were clear, the plot was clear, I even understood why this Batman was more violent. In all honesty, I think this movie is Zack Snyder's magnum opus. Man of Steel was excellent, in my opinion, but this one was at least twice as good.
Apparently it has to do with how open minded you go into viewing it. Personally, it gets better every time I watch it
jbgaters Amen to that, friend.
I agree with you completely. I love this movie so damn much. It just sucks that not many see as the masterpiece we do.
+Hard to Kidnap agreed to a certain extent. If you missed the Martha piece, once again, it does have to deal with intelligence but more so watching the film with an open mind. It is not enough to write off certain scenes because they "didn't make sense" and more often than not the comments and critics against that particular arc speak to the fact the majority of those that left those types of comments and reviews simply did not understand the scene and why it was placed where it was. This film has flaws, yes, but if we as moviegoers were to watch every movie for said flaws and are NOT critics that are getting paid for their opinion(s), then every movie would suck.
I still have mixed feelings about this. I like it from a thematic standpoint, and the cinematography is pretty fantastic. But as a Superman fan? This film kills me.
"Tell me, do you bleed...? YOU WILL...! arguably the best batman line ever, especially with the modulated voice.
Superman opening a door without breaking it. talk about control.
THANK YOU. I hate that I have to defend "the Martha scene". it makes total sense and it's extremely powerful if you actually pay attention to the narrative and the theme of the movie...
lol it literally makes no sense try again m8
Crono Strife It makes sense, it just could have been written better. The Zemo scene was only marginally better, man.
I agree. I don't hate the movie, I just have a hard time seeing the positives because of how much they've changed my favorite characters into things they shouldn't. for me "could have been written better." sums up exactly how I feel about the movie as a whole.
Crono Strife 9:36 to 10:50 would like to disagree.
Zachary Robertson What Zemo scene?
I loved this movie so much. I really hope that Zack Snyder's cut of Justice League gets a release. The theatrical version was alright but it had way too much of what I dislike about the MCU in it. I'm really excited for Flashpoint though, Ezra Miller is great as Barry Allen.
I'm excited for Flashpoint as well, since DC and WB are 99.9% certainly going to use it to completely scrap everything (except Wonder Woman somehow) and reboot the entire franchise with movies that can actually compete with Marvel.
@@SarajevoKyoto they ain't gonna reboot . They confirmed that DCEU is not gonna reboot for a very long time
the Snyder cut is literally all the stuff he filmed that its its all the footage he filmed before he had to leave for pretty tragic reasons there is no Synder cut because Synder didn't finish the Movie
He said “Not Lana” and that totally shook me! Damn Smallville Days 💯
I have to admit I resisted watching the Ultimate Edition for the longest time because, for me, the Theatrical Version was a painful chore to sit through. I can't even tell you how many times during the movie I thought, "GOD DAMMIT GET ON WITH IT ALREADY!!!." Even after hearing so many great things about the Ultimate Edition, I still put off watching it because what if I experience the same thing again?
I finally made myself watch the Ultimate Edition the other night and..... I had the BIGGEST smile on my face the whole movie!! Never before have I so insanely enjoyed watching an extended version of a movie I didn't enjoy in the first place! Everything just flowed like a river. It's amazing what adding 30 minutes worth of scenes can do to improve a film. Hell, even Eisenberg's performance became bearable (mostly).
I will never for as long as I live even glance in the Theatrical Version's general direction again. But the Ultimate Edition? I could watch that till my eyes bleed out. Anyone who hasn't watched the Ultimate Edition yet needs to go do so RIGHT NOW! I promise you, it is DEFINITELY worth your time.
TheSupersaiyan2012 Dude I agree! And I liked the theatrical version. I literally just finished watching the ultimate edition and I have no words. It's a million times better.
TheSupersaiyan2012 i
I shall watch it then
Been putting it off for a while
"I could watch it till my eyes bleed out."
Well, my eyes already bled out the first time I saw BvS Theatrical Release. Not gonna let myself be disappointed again.
Bryan Koh I honestly wouldn't blame you.
there's a cineman wins??!!?!
I know right!!!! I just discovered it today and i got so happy.
+Just Blaze it's not the same as cinema sins though :/
brownie Lashea cinemasins is much funnier
Redknight li My thoughts exactly my friend
+brownie Lashea cinema sins is meant to make fun of a movie. This seems to be meant to show us the good things in a movie. So we are not going to get a lot of jokes making fun of the movie
People also turned off their brains when they wondered why Superman couldn't find his mother himself. Yes, telescopic/x-ray vision would've helped...IF he knew she was in Gotham. He had no reason to assume that. She was all the way in Kansas when she was kidnapped and Luthor made it clear that he had no idea where his men took her because he wouldn't let them tell him. That being said, for all he knew, she could've been anywhere. Possibly even out of the range of his senses (which Zack Snyder said were nerfed in this universe). That's not a risk he could take. Super-hearing wouldn't have worked either, as she had guns and a flamethrower pointed at her head, keeping her from making a sound. You can't hear a sound if there is no sound to hear.
lex even said if he flies away Martha dies meaning if superman tried to go and find martha they'll end up killing her before he even finds her
Manny619 Exactly. Lex has been one step ahead of Superman throughout the entire film. He knew Superman would come for Lois in Africa and knew he'd show up at the capitol. People really think he wouldn't have anticipated Superman going to find his own mother?
James Clissett Yes. That's what a lot of people don't understand. For films, you have to put limits and filters on Superman's abilities in order to make storytelling more accessible. Superman can't be seen pushing planets or tanking supernovas. Unless you're a comics reader, that comes off as ridiculous. I mean, look at how people call BS on the things Chris Reeve's Superman could do; throw a cellophane "S" sheet, wipe Lois' memory with a kiss, rebuild the Great Wall of China by looking at it, and of course, turning back time with a worldwide spin. A Superman of that power-level is not optional for today's cinema.
Just to help your point, she was actually in a warehouse in Gotham. In the extended cut she's collected by a GCPD Officer while Batman flies off. People who ask why Superman couldn't have found her are vastly underestimating how big Metropolis is, how big the World is, and Overestimating Supermans powers.
M El Oh, yeah! Silly me! She was in Gotham. And I'm so glad to see yet another person who actually pays attention to the narrative and recognizes Superman's clear limitations in the DCEU. Thanks again for the Gotham warehouse catch! Can always count on a member of the House of El for intellectual insight!
I’m so glad he explained that it wasn’t about the names being identical. Because I surely was one of the people who thought that that was the reason he ceased from killing Superman. Now that I know the actuality of it, it is kinda heart warming. 💯😌
yes, but what could've happened if they have different names? would batman let superman live?
@@user-ux1ll3tw9l No, he would ask who that woman is after hearing the "You are letting them kill X"
@@user-ux1ll3tw9l It's also because of the fact that he pleaded for someone elses life instead of his own in that moment. He didn't expected that from an alien.
Wow I just discovered this channel with this vid and...well its so refreshing! It was great to watch a vid that focused on the positive!
Exactly lol and certainly didn't expect to stumble upon your comment lol.
Jason McCloud *Gasps* YOU.
ME!!!
But that's unpossible!
+Slade Wilson (Deathstroke) Impossible*
Best video on the subject of BvS, Yes? Yes
5 Wins
I really enjoy both cuts of the film, but for the sake of balance, I would check out moviebobs video essays on BvS, they are very good and an interesting take on the problems with the film.
ding ding
Slappy Guy yep it’s good.
@@IvanSpirit7 ding
I NEVER CLICKED ON A VIDEO SO FAST BEFORE
Same! 😂
same
same
Lol. I did stop what I was doing and immediately clicked on this as soon as I saw it. I had to see what could be positively said about this one. 1st movie ever I went to theaters to see and walked out actually kind of wanting my money back lol smh
RIGHT!!!
"I really hope the studio learns from this next time and just releases the original cut. ...Or ignore us and keep doing what you're doing. It's not like this is the third time his vision for the movie has been the better version."
Oh boy. Hearing these words now.
#ReleaseTheSnyderCut just got trending with over 700k tweets at #1 worldwide on Twitter with the cast, crew, and Zack himself joining in with the voice of the movement that also includes lots of industry professionals who weren't involved with the making of Zack's next movie... does WB not watch these videos? Damn.
ua-cam.com/video/RdZBivkweT8/v-deo.html
AND WE ARE GETTING THE SNYDER CUT
Suck it , Whecock !
@@tclturbo2456 We got it and it's fucking incredible
@@L3GiTxGH0STx *Men are still good.*
Thanks for making me fall in love with Batman vs superman again! A true justice!
I'm glad this video exists, this film seems to get nothing but hate from critics and for a while I believed them. This gives me a much greater appreciation for the film and makes me hopeful for the rest of the DCCU... so long as it doesn't turn out like Suicide squad. No list of great songs can save that film.
who know maybe when this guy makes every great about suicide squad maybe it will change your opinion on that movie.
Christian Stotts I highly doubt that
I don't think they wanted Suicide Squad to be as deep as BvS. It is a good popcorn flick you forget after a few days but BvS stays with you forever. I hope for the sake of the DC universe that the executives are not copying the Marvel formula because that will rob the fans of the true essence of DC movies.
Jnr
John Richards That's my biggest fear for this series. That WB is trying to turn DC into Marvel, which absolutely NEVER HAPPEN. Honestly, I feel like WB has suffered a change of management after Man of Steel.
I think BVS was awesome so I don't know why they ditched some of the executives. I think they want the critics' vote so they are cutting corners and trying to make DC movies less intense and more kid friendly like Marvel movies. If they had adapted the Assault on Arkham animated movie to the big screen it would have done better than the Suicide Squad movie we got. Where BVS was a 10/10, Suicide Squad was a decent 7/10 but you don't feel the need to watch again. However BVS is a movie you can watch again and again because of its depth and hidden messages as well as the emotional ending where Superman dies.
Jr
This is the first video I've seen on cinema wins. Its so weird he is not saying anything bad about it.
like cinemasins, they dont discuss about anything good in a movies. not even in winter soldier
You seem to be confused about the premise of the channel.
+Ratiwat Watthanaphuti he sometimes removes wins though, in Finding Nemo the 'all drains lead to the ocean' thing earned one anti-win
9:37 personally the only thing the "Martha" scene needed was a P.O.V shot of Bruce briefly seeing himself as the robber who killed his parents (seeing hismelf holding a gun instead of the spear), after Superman pleads him to save his mom, Martha.
Sure it is one hell of a coincidence, but is the coincidence that was loud and in-your face enough to get into the head of the rage-fueled Batman at this point.
brilliant, bravo!!
Can I steal this comment? Batman realized he was the one holding the gun, at essentially a helpless son. Bruce needed something to slap him in the face HARD to snap him out of this...a Flashback to Joe Chill or whoever killed his parents in this continuity...qualifies.
When people complaining about 'Martha' scene I was like 'You don't know about PTSD, do you?
Oh. and funny thing is people who bashing BvS for 'trying to be something more than superheroes film' are the same one that praise Logan.....Yep.
Thanya Waeohongsa what does Logan have to do with it
People praise Logan for being 'more than superheroes movie'. I'm also one of them too. But those people also criticize BvS for 'be more than superheroes film' which is really weird statement. Most of those people always be like 'I hate BvS for being more than superheroes film but I love Logan for being more than superheroes film' or 'Superheroes film should be fun and lots of action. Why did they made BvS so gloomy with few actions. Oh, but Logan is so good because it's so tragic eventhough it has few action scenes'.
Don't get me wrong, man. I have nothing against Logan at all. It's one of my favourite movies of 2017 next to Blade Runner 2049 (can't wait to see EGA of that movie) and little bit higher than Wonder Woman. I just feel like some of statement against BvS are ridiculous. I understand some of them eventhough I don't agree with them but some of them are bullshit.
Thanya Waeohongsa well I've never heard more than superheros but Logan was amazing and while bvs ultimate edition is better some things in it was poorly executed and it bored me to be honest it had its moments but it really felt crammed
What do you know about PTSD?
@@thanyawaeohongsa691 I praise Logan because its a Great movie with a Coherent plot.
11:45 Also, did you notice when Lex told Superman that "God wasn't there to protect me from Daddy's fists and abominations", Superman does exactly what Lex just said in this scene as a God protects Lex from fists and abominations.
Amazing what you can find if you pay attention :D
If this movie is bad why are people in the entire cinema standing Up And Clapping at the end? Damn Critics
My theater was full of indifference. I thought it was aight. I didn't like Doomsday, but I do like how his fight pretty much addressed my biggest problem with the Zod fight. I still hate how they made it so that Superman didn't do much damage control during the big Zod fight, but in this one, Supes is trying to drag Doomsday into space, lure him into uncrowded areas and all his attempts are met with different results which add substance to the fight. That's how you execute a superhero fight scene.
Same at the theater I went too, they did it for MOS as well
people in my theater left with 20 minutes left. and i went to the premiere
+Colton "Batman" Wayne That was my experience too.
people boo'd at my theater.
People Hate What they Don't Understand
because they don't want to understand
You missed the best quote of all. "If you seek his monument, look around". Gives me the feels everytime
It is a real shame that after this masterpiece warner bros and dc blinked and made justice league such a cop out that very poorly links in with the story and themes this movie set up
9:53 not to mention that when Lois told him about Martha, Bruce at that moment saw himself in the position of the man that killed his parents with the weapon in his hand, it was that moment he realized that he was no better than the man that killed his parents, if anything, he felt he became worse than the murderer of his parents.
Way to read into a scene what was never portrayed.
There was NO indication of that at all. If THAT were what had happened you would expect some really glaring change and self reflection on his activities. Instead we just got " Oh well, I don't hate this Super alien anymore and were now besties and I'll do whatever I can to help him".
@@daverobson3084 it was too clear to be seen by people like you. Didn't his facial expression gave the slightest hint about this to you? Didn't his way of saying "martha won't die tonight" showed his desperation of getting redemption?
@@DivvayKhatri
1-You could hardly see his face and his expression hardly changed.
2-His expression could be for any reason of "Hey I shouldn't be killing this guy" so reading in that it was exactly because of what the OP stated was.....reading in. Saying that Bruce " saw himself in the position of the man that killed his parents" is reading in and stating that Bruce never made any connection with taking another life until he found out that Superman had a mother, something that he never had a reason to doubt, even if said human was an alien because as far as he knows Kryptonians also have parents. this might work work with another character . One which does not think about things nearly as much as the ( normally) very complex one of Batman does, but, not with Batman.
And nothing in this explains why Superman wanted Batman's help in the first place or why he trusts him to be the sole protector of his mother moments after Batman was trying to murder him( or why Superman decided to fight Batman at all when he could have simply ignored any of his attacks up until the Kryptonite instead of explaining himself).
Again . this stuff could work with " dumber characters". Ones known for acting more out of emotion or desperation, but not with these two.
@@daverobson3084 hey don't get butthurt just because you're too stupid to understand an obvious scene
@@theAverageJoe25
Blah-blah-blah.
Stupid scene and lazy writing.
You are probably the only person who accurately describes parts of movies that either confuse people or things people get just wrong. In this case, I'm referring to "Martha" but you also did it with the "plot holes" from A Quiet Place, Thanos snapping half of life away rather than doubling resources, and why Peter lost his powers in Spiderman 2. There are several things in movies that people like MatPat will spend a whole video trying to figure out that you are able to answer in less than 2 minutes. You sir, are VERY good at your job!
It's not a great movie, but it's not as bad as people say. Id give it a 6.5/10 or somewhere around there
go fuck yourself
Christ, there's just no middle ground on this thing is there?
no either you die or accept this movie as your personal savior no other choice
+CinemaStone (；一_一)Sarcasm mate
I love the movie, Snyder is in my heart
I'm so glad that this video was made because I actually enjoyed this movie so I think this is a nice change from al the criticism this movie is getting
Still a bad movie. I didn't think something could make me hate Superman this much
+Stormtrooper is one word pls respect Then we just different opinion since this and MoS are the first time I don't dislike Superman.
By the way, good or bad, is still an opinion. You can say that Pulp.Fiction is an awful movie while Fast and.the furious is a good movie. It's just opinion.
+Elliot Perera Lol don't think art is a "special" or good term, art is simply someone expressing themselves, A horrible movie( im not talking BvS) could be called art
+Adrian Vazquez Morales I'm not even a fan of super hero movies and this film pissed me off. Especially with that ending
Stormtrooper is one word pls respect What does not being a fan in general but pissed you off fit in together?
We didn't get a Batman vs. Superman movie, we got a Justice League trailer with a coupe of neat moments. Batfleck was good. Movie is a 5/10 in my honest opinion so I'll just have to agree to disagree.
every Marvel film is an ad for the next 20 films which is far worse
It wasn't perfect but I enjoyed it! And it's ok if you didn't enjoy it, we ain't all gotta like the same things! 😄
Kathy Wong Not saying Marvel films aren't. Doesn't exempt this movie from suffering from that or giving it a free pass. And at least Marvel movies aren't boring for me :P.
***** Marvel films are for people who do not like to bring their brain with them to the movies.
+Kathy Wong How about they're both good? Comparing them is like saying apples are better than oranges. They're two different things even though they're similar and just because you like one doesn't mean you have to hate the other.
“we’re criminals, we’ve always been criminals” -bruce wayne. taken directly from the dark knight returns comic where so much of this movie gets its inspiration from, awesome