Since you didn't get to maximum accuracy by abstracting MB to only be used against armour, I decided to do those calculations for anyone interested. Basically, I noted that with MB, 2/3 of the times when you break the opponent's armour, you did not need MB to do so and are as such free to use MB for the injury roll (Probability of 9+ is 10/36, while probability of 8 is 5/36). This increases your chance of CASing someone by 2/3 (chances go up to 10/36 from 6/36) during those 2/3 of cases, so essentially all ultimate probabilities of CASing someone when you have MB should be multiplied with 13/9 compared to those shown here on the video. 1D with MB 3.34% (1 in 29.9) 2D with MB 5,57% (1 in 17.9) 1D with Both 5.02% (1 in 19.9) 2D with Both 7.52% (1 in 13.3) Oh, and there seems to be a mistake in the Block, Claw, MB calculations, as your chance of breaking armour is calculated as if a 7 would be enough, but its not now that Claw and MB can't be combined to make all armour like butter. As such, the final probability of CASing someone with all three is only 8.68% or 1 in 11.5.
Henri For The Win!! :D Awr man, I was so excited by the super kill of Block Claw MB haha! Thank you so much for going through these stats! Pinned for excellence.
Haha, Chaos Chosen are my one and only so I was excited too for a moment, but 8.7% is more than enough to get some Blood for the Blood God! Hell, the opponents may even run out of blood by half-time unless they dodge a lot. And then I'll have to rush with everyone to compensate.
@@FabioSpelta I tend to give them guard at the same time. My current leveling strategy is to pick block as the first skill for 2 blockers and 5 beastmen while the two remaining blockers go for MB and two beastmen go for tackle. For the second pick those who got block as first pick go for guard while the specialists go for block as their second. On the pitch I put my MB blockers on the sides (where there should be enough space to get assists anyway) to push the enemies into a manageable blob while the two other blockers get stuck in at the thickest fighting in the middle. Meanwhile the 4 of the 5 block beastmen help where able while the fifth is a ball carrier and the two tacklers are held back as anti-dodge blitzers unless there is no dodge on the enemy team in which case into the fray they go.
Love your videos Ben. I watch ever day now. Just got the main box and my first team In 20 years. Can’t wait to show you on whip Wednesday when it’s ready! Keep it up!
Thanks Ben, for the nice comparison. Also great to learn that MB no longer works on defensive knockdowns. Like others, I feel there's some wiggle-room left in here. For example, with MB, you can sometimes go for the greedy option and still choose the both down without block, hoping for MB to break armour. I also really appreciate the defensive side of block, where you suffer fewer turnovers and can keep stood up to block another turn. However, this video isn't about the defensive application of force, now is it ;-D
Hahaha, this video is all out CAS-SPP 😂 But you're so right! BD saves you on defense, and MB still works when BD takes you down (Sam "Frenzy" Garner's brother **loves** doing this with his Ogre team!)
The part about blocking that is missing is how it saves from turnovers. And a turnover could cause you to miss extra blocks for your other players or for that one player if he knocked himself out on a both down.
Also not having Block increases the chance that the player will be KO'd or Cas'd themselves which will obviously slow down their development. Block seems the clear winner to me.
Exactly. Block brings safety into a seriously unsafe game. Blocking somebody to the floor makes them unable to: 1. Hit you back 2. Mark a player by moving on their turn, as they loose movement by standing up 3. Assist further blocks Block over MB. Any player, all the time.
Remember: Block is way better if your opponents have lots of Dodge. With Mighty Blow on the other hand you get better casualty odds against Block pieces. I myself prefer usually to get Mighty Blow on a single player first, then usually stick to Block first. A single Mighty Blow killer gives a big advantage in the race to get players off the pitch. You can protect him from enemy killers (and foulers) and blitz every turn if possible.
This is a very good point, yet I still prefer Block of the team is lacking it, like Chaos and such teams, in order to get more reliable blocking going. Block works every turn (even the opponent's turn) while MB is only a chance to work. It is true though that the reward is really worth it.
An example situation for the type of game I mean. Let's say you are playing a squishy but dodgy Av 7 team (for example Wood Elves or Pro Elves). A competent elf player will not give you any free blocks, always dodging away and screening. This game will usually consist of you marking them, then them dodging away (or blocking you away). Both teams will of course Blitz every turn with their best blitzer, often the weakest enemy player with the hope of reducing player count. Because of the general situation of the game you can probably afford to support this blitzer with rerolls and screening/caging him against retaliation. In this case I think a singular Mighty Blow player can increase your odds of coming ahead. But in general I agree, going Block first is definitely not 'the wrong' choice, and I'd give that advice to anyone who can't make up his mind.
Great stuff! However you might score more defensive CAS and having the blocker on pitch more games with block over MB. However if you really love CAS then you are not as fuzzy about if it's your players or the opponents so MB is most def the way to go ;)
I feel that this question 'Block or MB first' should come with a huge caveat. This is only applicable on the 'killer' positionals of the team. Any Blocker is far better of with Block because their main job is to stand in the way and BLOCK the opponent's advance. The added benefit is that these Blockers are now a reliable way of starting a turn with 2d Blocks, everyone knows how often those 1/9 blocks happen. PS: I just realized that you did mention this question in regards to the Blocker positions. So I have to warn that this is a trap because Blockers aren't supposed to rack up skills. They are there to take punches and punch back. So they will make less often use added skills. I am now developing my Chorf Blockers with Guard and Stand Firm, Only taking MB as a Third skill. The exception being any doubles or stat increases. My Claw and ST4 Chorf have gotten MB.
You're not wrong Joris!! I guess this is more about which skill gets you both quicker! And Blockers on teams without Blitzers have to dual-role a lot (Saurus etc)!
awesome video Ben. Block is good for winning, mighty blow is good for fun lol. Nice to see that claw+mb+block is still insane, i would hate to see the percentages of CAS in the previous edition
Interesting comparison, but even though the casualty chance for mighty blow is higher than you described (as you don't always use mighty blow for the armour roll) I would still get block first, for the more reliable blocking and avoiding a turnover. Winning games is more of a priority than SPP. Clearing the defenders more effectively also allows other players to score more often, hence getting more SPP.
Thanks Ben, nice to drive to/from work in happy Blood bowl land. Tl;dr: You can’t block when you’re eating dirt, and a wise man once said: more blocks is more better!! I’ve been considering whether to save for block or take claw first on my Underworld Rogre. Two things about block: 1) for 1D blocks, you half your chance of falling over (2/6 to 1/6) and missing a turn of blocking (or more). For 2D blocks, you go from 4/36 chance to 1/36 of falling over... that’s lots of extra blocks. AND 2) you don’t fall over over in defence as often, meaning again, you spend more time blocking and less time knocked over, stunned or off the pitch. So, though mighty blow increases chance of pain per block, it means you make fewer blocks. I think block is going to result in more SPP. Wonder if FUMBBL has stats on this?
Oof, the Rogre question is a toughy! Especially as your Blocks are going to be 2DB most of the time!! I think Block is *technically correct*, but surely the Rogre is there for removal? 😉
@@BoneheadPodcast Yeah man - and you're playing Underworld for a reason right?! By the way, a subject near and dear to your heart: I'm in love with the Ratogre-Snotling symbiosis, and not just for the surety of the Rogre blitz either. Chain pushes for ball sacking. Flood a cage with snotlings, S5 frenzy blitz/block the right player, and with a carefully planned set of chain pushes, out pops the ball carrier next to your Stormvermin or whatever...
Thoughts for a new series of UA-cam videos. I think you guys need to do a beginner series of skills explained. You could set a scenario up with characters on a pitch, their stats and then how the skill will play out. I think it could really be helpful to some new players.
@@BoneheadPodcast Definitely would like to see how skills apply in different scenarios. Also I'd love to direct some mates of mine to videos of that nature to try and expand my bloodbowl circle of friends.
Vey interesting! I have a suggestion/question I want answered 😉 is having an apothecary or a regeneration (undead) team better for survival? I know it may be a broad question but I wondered if you could shine some light on it! I always think regen is better but I’d like to see the results! Thanks as always!
Since you didn't get to maximum accuracy by abstracting MB to only be used against armour, I decided to do those calculations for anyone interested. Basically, I noted that with MB, 2/3 of the times when you break the opponent's armour, you did not need MB to do so and are as such free to use MB for the injury roll (Probability of 9+ is 10/36, while probability of 8 is 5/36). This increases your chance of CASing someone by 2/3 (chances go up to 10/36 from 6/36) during those 2/3 of cases, so essentially all ultimate probabilities of CASing someone when you have MB should be multiplied with 13/9 compared to those shown here on the video.
1D with MB 3.34% (1 in 29.9)
2D with MB 5,57% (1 in 17.9)
1D with Both 5.02% (1 in 19.9)
2D with Both 7.52% (1 in 13.3)
Oh, and there seems to be a mistake in the Block, Claw, MB calculations, as your chance of breaking armour is calculated as if a 7 would be enough, but its not now that Claw and MB can't be combined to make all armour like butter. As such, the final probability of CASing someone with all three is only 8.68% or 1 in 11.5.
Henri For The Win!! :D
Awr man, I was so excited by the super kill of Block Claw MB haha!
Thank you so much for going through these stats! Pinned for excellence.
Haha, Chaos Chosen are my one and only so I was excited too for a moment, but 8.7% is more than enough to get some Blood for the Blood God! Hell, the opponents may even run out of blood by half-time unless they dodge a lot. And then I'll have to rush with everyone to compensate.
That's quite a bigger swing in favour of MB for the speed.
@@obelix1996 unrelated. would you give guard to the chaos blockers or to the beastmen first? Thanks.
@@FabioSpelta I tend to give them guard at the same time. My current leveling strategy is to pick block as the first skill for 2 blockers and 5 beastmen while the two remaining blockers go for MB and two beastmen go for tackle. For the second pick those who got block as first pick go for guard while the specialists go for block as their second. On the pitch I put my MB blockers on the sides (where there should be enough space to get assists anyway) to push the enemies into a manageable blob while the two other blockers get stuck in at the thickest fighting in the middle. Meanwhile the 4 of the 5 block beastmen help where able while the fifth is a ball carrier and the two tacklers are held back as anti-dodge blitzers unless there is no dodge on the enemy team in which case into
the fray they go.
Picked up BB during COVID19 this channel has helped immeasurably. Great stuff! Thankyou
Boom! That's great to hear BBQDave Thanks! 😁
*No human linemen were harmed during the making of this video
Love your videos Ben. I watch ever day now. Just got the main box and my first team In 20 years. Can’t wait to show you on whip Wednesday when it’s ready! Keep it up!
Thanks Ben, for the nice comparison. Also great to learn that MB no longer works on defensive knockdowns. Like others, I feel there's some wiggle-room left in here. For example, with MB, you can sometimes go for the greedy option and still choose the both down without block, hoping for MB to break armour. I also really appreciate the defensive side of block, where you suffer fewer turnovers and can keep stood up to block another turn. However, this video isn't about the defensive application of force, now is it ;-D
Hahaha, this video is all out CAS-SPP 😂
But you're so right! BD saves you on defense, and MB still works when BD takes you down (Sam "Frenzy" Garner's brother **loves** doing this with his Ogre team!)
The part about blocking that is missing is how it saves from turnovers. And a turnover could cause you to miss extra blocks for your other players or for that one player if he knocked himself out on a both down.
You're bang on Super Mercado! More Block means More Blocks 😁
This is the most crucial part of skill selection: do I want to develop this player or do I want to develop the team's ability to win?
Also not having Block increases the chance that the player will be KO'd or Cas'd themselves which will obviously slow down their development. Block seems the clear winner to me.
Exactly. Block brings safety into a seriously unsafe game.
Blocking somebody to the floor makes them unable to:
1. Hit you back
2. Mark a player by moving on their turn, as they loose movement by standing up
3. Assist further blocks
Block over MB.
Any player, all the time.
Remember: Block is way better if your opponents have lots of Dodge. With Mighty Blow on the other hand you get better casualty odds against Block pieces. I myself prefer usually to get Mighty Blow on a single player first, then usually stick to Block first. A single Mighty Blow killer gives a big advantage in the race to get players off the pitch. You can protect him from enemy killers (and foulers) and blitz every turn if possible.
That's a great call out MutantBall!
This is a very good point, yet I still prefer Block of the team is lacking it, like Chaos and such teams, in order to get more reliable blocking going.
Block works every turn (even the opponent's turn) while MB is only a chance to work.
It is true though that the reward is really worth it.
An example situation for the type of game I mean. Let's say you are playing a squishy but dodgy Av 7 team (for example Wood Elves or Pro Elves). A competent elf player will not give you any free blocks, always dodging away and screening. This game will usually consist of you marking them, then them dodging away (or blocking you away). Both teams will of course Blitz every turn with their best blitzer, often the weakest enemy player with the hope of reducing player count. Because of the general situation of the game you can probably afford to support this blitzer with rerolls and screening/caging him against retaliation. In this case I think a singular Mighty Blow player can increase your odds of coming ahead.
But in general I agree, going Block first is definitely not 'the wrong' choice, and I'd give that advice to anyone who can't make up his mind.
Thanks Ben, didn't realise MB doesn't work defensively any more.
Great stuff!
However you might score more defensive CAS and having the blocker on pitch more games with block over MB.
However if you really love CAS then you are not as fuzzy about if it's your players or the opponents so MB is most def the way to go ;)
Hey Hampus! You're not wrong buddy! I kinda figured the defensive CAS would balance out versus the bonus CAS from +1 to Injury sometimes! :D
@@BoneheadPodcast Thanks and I do believe so to but trying to get some maths on it would be a horrible nightmare xD
I feel that this question 'Block or MB first' should come with a huge caveat.
This is only applicable on the 'killer' positionals of the team. Any Blocker is far better of with Block because their main job is to stand in the way and BLOCK the opponent's advance.
The added benefit is that these Blockers are now a reliable way of starting a turn with 2d Blocks, everyone knows how often those 1/9 blocks happen.
PS: I just realized that you did mention this question in regards to the Blocker positions.
So I have to warn that this is a trap because Blockers aren't supposed to rack up skills. They are there to take punches and punch back. So they will make less often use added skills.
I am now developing my Chorf Blockers with Guard and Stand Firm, Only taking MB as a Third skill. The exception being any doubles or stat increases. My Claw and ST4 Chorf have gotten MB.
You're not wrong Joris!!
I guess this is more about which skill gets you both quicker!
And Blockers on teams without Blitzers have to dual-role a lot (Saurus etc)!
awesome video Ben. Block is good for winning, mighty blow is good for fun lol. Nice to see that claw+mb+block is still insane, i would hate to see the percentages of CAS in the previous edition
Haha! I'm tempted to run the old stats, but I don't want to make myself too sad 😁
Interesting comparison, but even though the casualty chance for mighty blow is higher than you described (as you don't always use mighty blow for the armour roll) I would still get block first, for the more reliable blocking and avoiding a turnover. Winning games is more of a priority than SPP. Clearing the defenders more effectively also allows other players to score more often, hence getting more SPP.
You didn't take into account that when the result is a both down (when you don't have block) you still have a chance to cause a casualty.
Hey Fred! You're right 😁 MB get's a little boosted in that way!
@@BoneheadPodcast I’m not sure it does as you bony use MB if you go down in a both down
Thanks Ben, nice to drive to/from work in happy Blood bowl land.
Tl;dr: You can’t block when you’re eating dirt, and a wise man once said: more blocks is more better!!
I’ve been considering whether to save for block or take claw first on my Underworld Rogre. Two things about block:
1) for 1D blocks, you half your chance of falling over (2/6 to 1/6) and missing a turn of blocking (or more). For 2D blocks, you go from 4/36 chance to 1/36 of falling over... that’s lots of extra blocks.
AND
2) you don’t fall over over in defence as often, meaning again, you spend more time blocking and less time knocked over, stunned or off the pitch.
So, though mighty blow increases chance of pain per block, it means you make fewer blocks. I think block is going to result in more SPP. Wonder if FUMBBL has stats on this?
Oof, the Rogre question is a toughy! Especially as your Blocks are going to be 2DB most of the time!!
I think Block is *technically correct*, but surely the Rogre is there for removal? 😉
@@BoneheadPodcast Yeah man - and you're playing Underworld for a reason right?!
By the way, a subject near and dear to your heart: I'm in love with the Ratogre-Snotling symbiosis, and not just for the surety of the Rogre blitz either. Chain pushes for ball sacking. Flood a cage with snotlings, S5 frenzy blitz/block the right player, and with a carefully planned set of chain pushes, out pops the ball carrier next to your Stormvermin or whatever...
Thoughts for a new series of UA-cam videos.
I think you guys need to do a beginner series of skills explained. You could set a scenario up with characters on a pitch, their stats and then how the skill will play out. I think it could really be helpful to some new players.
Ash, that sounds great! If you think that would be useful we could totally sort that! 😁
@@BoneheadPodcast Definitely would like to see how skills apply in different scenarios. Also I'd love to direct some mates of mine to videos of that nature to try and expand my bloodbowl circle of friends.
Dwarfs "why not both?"
You missed out Guard as well haha 😁
Vey interesting! I have a suggestion/question I want answered 😉 is having an apothecary or a regeneration (undead) team better for survival? I know it may be a broad question but I wondered if you could shine some light on it! I always think regen is better but I’d like to see the results! Thanks as always!
My 30-game level 2 Flesh Golem hates me for picking Block as a first skill 😅
Haha, Block is the vegetables to the Frenzy Mighty Blow dessert 😁
block it knocks down your opponent more AND keeps your blocker on his feet more too ( thus giving him a better chance to throw more blocks a game)
Silly question, play dwarfs and you already have block. Take MB and Guard 😜
Haha! 'Tis the season of the Dwarf currently after all! 😉
With troll 🤮, can you use mighty blow? It's an block action, isn't it?
No, it’s an action that replaces it.
Sadly not!! That would be a cool mutation though! 😁
Block or wrestle should be next. Everyone loves Block until you blitz with your wrestle piece...
Hehe, Wrestle is probably my favourite combat skill 😁