Do you think Johns death could have been prevented? Is Madelyn right to sue? Let's discuss in the comments. _ *Useful Links* Shop - www.simplyscuba.com/ Daily Scuba News - bit.ly/39vFkYX Scuba Advice - bit.ly/2SHYiEN Friday Feature - bit.ly/2SsKGhG Deco Stop Podcast - bit.ly/2whcmh7 Teespring - bit.ly/2uLRoGz
Simply Scuba I personally don’t think she is right to sue, the biggest thing that all my instructors have pushed into my head is if you don’t feel comfortable with the dive don’t go. On top of that as far as I’m concerned every time you do go diving you kinda take your life in your hands, though rare things can go wrong. Sad to hear about this and my thoughts and prayers go out to the family.
One has to find negligence. The little that I know it does not appear that PADI or the dive shop are negligent regarding this dive. IMO all divers need to be accountable for their own skill level. Someone can ask what your skill level is and the diver can lie. Who knew? So, as unfortunate, I don't see this law suite as viable. Plus, never found the body?
Why the hell would the instructor suggest to continue when down to 50 bar? Where was his buddy, incase there was another issue with his air leaking faster than others. The buddy system truly failed here. And his buddy failed him.
Unless you’re military the thumbs up means surface. According to PADI, for a missing diver you should conduct a quick search and then surface. The shop could have done a dive check online, so you don’t need a c-card.
I've seen the double thumb up used to indicate going to the surface as opposed to just up to shallower depth. I wonder if that's how the separation happened. He went up as per the signal, but nobody followed him. Unless the thumbs up was Sam's poetic license interpretation of the "all ok" rather than the actual signal exchanged...
A diver gone missing/presumably perished, is always very, very tragic news. Not only to everyone involved, but also to all divers alike, as I believe we can at least, to some extent, try to imagine the utterly horrible situation underwater and above the surface when you have to come up. However, this video takes us back to our Open Water Diver course classes, and to one of the key points of personal responsibilities. This statement also in my mind stands above all other concerns and roles of responsibilty when it comes to the wonderful world of diving. And especially looking at the second phrase in the statement, even if no concerns arise prior to the dive. I will not go more into the details of checking credentials of all divers, obtaining releases of responsibility etc. as these should be parts of prudent diving professionals, because that is not the deciding factor. Just to emphasize, above all else, the following statement is the most important one, always. PADI Open Water Diver Course. Knowledge Review Three. Question Five. "When assessing conditions, if there is anything that causes me significant anxiety or concern, if I can't address it, I should not dive. Ultimately, I am responsible for my own safety, so only I can make the final decision to dive. True/False"
Yeah that confused me. At the 50bar signal, two of the four divers should be heading for the surface. Failure to check they have common signals for numbers?
There were two instructors and two non-instructors. Logic dictates that the buddy pairing would have been each non-instructor with one of the instructors. Otherwise the two instructors would have been paired and the two non-instructors would be paired, a sub-optimal configuration even if the non-instructors were well experienced unless they were at least trained as rescue divers or above. In either case, somebody lost a buddy. Sorry, but there's NO excuse for that, ever. I once ran out of air at a depth of 20m, mostly due to my own stupidity, but it was at the end of a chain of events that began with a very subtle technical issue that I ignored before we stepped off the boat. My wife and I are religious about adhering to the buddy system principles and it literally saved my life. We executed the procedure as we had drilled in our PADI training and the potentially deadly affair turned into a meh. So my view on anyone who neglects the principles of the buddy system is an uncharitable one.
Most tourists don’t understand how dangerous Saipan’s grotto is. I am a Saipan native and growing up, my whole family knew the dangers. Easy money for the scuba business because the place is so breathtaking but most don’t know how to read the waters and don’t know the dangers of the underwater currents/how to handle getting through them.
PADI will expel the instructors and then use their incident reports to help the plaintiff win a larger settlement against the expelled PADI instructors. It's what PADI does.... Every Single Time!
@@UniqueScubaLakewoodRanch if the instructor isn't following established guidelines, I see ZERO issue with this. I've been on dives with instructors who blatantly ignored basic safety guidelines. For instance, I had one tell the group we didn't really need a buddy on this dive because the water was so clear. Sure, the water was clear, but it was also a deep wreck dive. Everyone was in their own little world, spread out all over the place. One person got caught up in some snagged fishing line, freaked, ditched their BC and bolted because no one was around to help them. I'd have no issue with PADI hanging that person out to dry. Please don't take this as me saying PADI is great... just saying in that these instances, I don't have an issue with it.
Well hard to say. If the two guides had stayed one ahead and one as the last of the team, probably they would have noticed that he had a problem. But we do not know all the circumstances so I think it would anyway be better if he has given a signal by 100 bar rather than 50 (maybe he did...)
it all depends on the qualification the guys was holding and if the dive shop let him dive beyond what his limits should have been. Cavern Dive is not a cave but depending on the site bringing an open water diver would be not advisable especially if is air consumption would be problematic at deeps. There is not enough details given to really now what happened. I find it just weird that when your buddy tells you he is low air you would not stay extremely close to be withing air sharing distance.
My personal point of contention would be the extent of the diver's experience and if that was sufficient. Apart from that we all need to take more responsibility for ourselves and our choices.
Use your brain before using your mouth. Do you sue the driving instructor for every driver that drives over the limit or who has a fatal crash? No? Suing PADI for the decisions of individual instructors makes no sense. Unless you're claiming that PADI guidelines caused the incident, or that the instructors had prior offenses for which PADI should have revoked their licenses.
As a diver myself you have to dive within your limits no question. While you should be able to trust so called professionals it's your life on the line.
As an instructor, what a negligent mess. I would not have taken him down without knowing his qualifications. At 50 bar, that’s a crisis, add the cavern and it’s a disaster waiting to happen.
Charlie foxtrot gungho diving. Experienced a lot of this kind of diving in Cayman. I used to get nasty comments for surfacing on my reserve. I was "cutting the dive short"
I recall the saying "there are old divers and there are bold divers, but there are no bold old divers". I would be at a different dive shop the next day.
All very sad. Sounds like the DMs did a fair job and the divers are always responsible for thier own level of competence. The lack of a body "ever" is probably more of an investigation.
First off, it is very limited information to present a uniform opinion on this. In most cases, a fatal accident is the result of a cascade of failures and/or bad decisions. Could John's death have been prevented? Yes, likely. The fact that his experience or certification level hasn't been checked rings some bells. I do not know this cave or cavern and the difficulty level. That being said I wouldn't be the one taking an uncertified or OW diver with a handful of dives into a real cave or cave system. But John also had a responsibility to cancel his dive if he felt he wasn't up for it. About the 50 bar, the normal rule would say whoever calls the dive and signals low on air terminates the dive and starts a controlled ascent. But depending on the situation, the instructor's judgement is an important factor. Maybe the instructor made the call, having let's say 160 bar left in his tank (just assuming here John was a guzzler), to return to an underwater swim-through of 100 meters using his octo or buddy breathing instead of ending a good way from shore in strong currents without a pick-up boat present. I don't quite understand how they lost him though. There were 2 instructors for a total of 4 divers. One should have stayed with John (and his buddy) and address the situation - which could have induced panic for John. the other instructor could have opted to finish the dive with the 2 others according to the dive plan. Maybe there was an error in judgement, but does his wife have the right to sue? No. The USA has a lawsuit culture, this is also why PADI and all other agencies and dive shops usually have you signing all kinds of waivers. Diving always has some risk involved, mitigated by proper equipment, training and staying within your limits.
Maybe this is a minor point, and I understand your meaning, but she absolutely has a right to sue (whether she should or sued, or whether she should win, are different questions). I think his level of certification (if any) is a major factor here. It could easily be argued that taking an uncertified diver on a cave dive that had multiple deaths in the few years before (not to mention leaving them on their own with low air) would be gross negligence. At least in many states in the USA, no matter what waiver you sign, you can't waive your right to sue for gross negligence. I don't know about other jurisdictions.
Wasn’t there a guy in the USA named John Jones who died while caving ? I suggest no one with that name should go anywhere near a cave 🙈 Rest In Peace buddy
His wife must be a Millennial, blaming everyone else for her husband's death, when as a diver he should know his limitations. So sick of people trying to go for the big money lawsuit after the death of a loved one. How does she know he was never asked about his dive experience, how does she know that the dive and the difficulty of this dive was never discussed? This is a flat out money grab.
@@CDeanhartman I may be joking about the Millennials but, it still doesn't take away from the fact that it is always someone else fault and not his own fault. From the very little I have found online about this story, it doesn't look like his wife was around to make claims that he wasn't briefed and I haven't found anything from the person diving with him that day that confirms the wife's claims.
@@CDeanhartman Edward never suggested that *John* must be a Millenial; he said "His wife must be a Millennial..." Maybe John married a woman much younger than himself.
@@seikibrian8641I never suggested that Ms. Jones wasnt a Millennial. Since things have devolved into the pedantic, the couple were married for 46 years. Ergo, neither are/were Millennials.
Do you think Johns death could have been prevented? Is Madelyn right to sue? Let's discuss in the comments.
_
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Simply Scuba I personally don’t think she is right to sue, the biggest thing that all my instructors have pushed into my head is if you don’t feel comfortable with the dive don’t go. On top of that as far as I’m concerned every time you do go diving you kinda take your life in your hands, though rare things can go wrong. Sad to hear about this and my thoughts and prayers go out to the family.
One has to find negligence. The little that I know it does not appear that PADI or the dive shop are negligent regarding this dive. IMO all divers need to be accountable for their own skill level. Someone can ask what your skill level is and the diver can lie. Who knew? So, as unfortunate, I don't see this law suite as viable. Plus, never found the body?
Why the hell would the instructor suggest to continue when down to 50 bar? Where was his buddy, incase there was another issue with his air leaking faster than others. The buddy system truly failed here. And his buddy failed him.
Unless you’re military the thumbs up means surface.
According to PADI, for a missing diver you should conduct a quick search and then surface. The shop could have done a dive check online, so you don’t need a c-card.
I've seen the double thumb up used to indicate going to the surface as opposed to just up to shallower depth. I wonder if that's how the separation happened. He went up as per the signal, but nobody followed him.
Unless the thumbs up was Sam's poetic license interpretation of the "all ok" rather than the actual signal exchanged...
A diver gone missing/presumably perished, is always very, very tragic news. Not only to everyone involved, but also to all divers alike, as I believe we can at least, to some extent, try to imagine the utterly horrible situation underwater and above the surface when you have to come up.
However, this video takes us back to our Open Water Diver course classes, and to one of the key points of personal responsibilities. This statement also in my mind stands above all other concerns and roles of responsibilty when it comes to the wonderful world of diving. And especially looking at the second phrase in the statement, even if no concerns arise prior to the dive. I will not go more into the details of checking credentials of all divers, obtaining releases of responsibility etc. as these should be parts of prudent diving professionals, because that is not the deciding factor. Just to emphasize, above all else, the following statement is the most important one, always.
PADI Open Water Diver Course. Knowledge Review Three. Question Five.
"When assessing conditions, if there is anything that causes me significant anxiety or concern, if I can't address it, I should not dive.
Ultimately, I am responsible for my own safety, so only I can make the final decision to dive.
True/False"
Diver signals 50bar so guides say ok let's go into a cave... negligent as feck...
Yeah that confused me. At the 50bar signal, two of the four divers should be heading for the surface.
Failure to check they have common signals for numbers?
At 50 bar they should actually be ON the surface, not on the way up.
There were two instructors and two non-instructors. Logic dictates that the buddy pairing would have been each non-instructor with one of the instructors. Otherwise the two instructors would have been paired and the two non-instructors would be paired, a sub-optimal configuration even if the non-instructors were well experienced unless they were at least trained as rescue divers or above. In either case, somebody lost a buddy. Sorry, but there's NO excuse for that, ever.
I once ran out of air at a depth of 20m, mostly due to my own stupidity, but it was at the end of a chain of events that began with a very subtle technical issue that I ignored before we stepped off the boat. My wife and I are religious about adhering to the buddy system principles and it literally saved my life. We executed the procedure as we had drilled in our PADI training and the potentially deadly affair turned into a meh. So my view on anyone who neglects the principles of the buddy system is an uncharitable one.
Most tourists don’t understand how dangerous Saipan’s grotto is. I am a Saipan native and growing up, my whole family knew the dangers. Easy money for the scuba business because the place is so breathtaking but most don’t know how to read the waters and don’t know the dangers of the underwater currents/how to handle getting through them.
Pretty sure PADI's Teflon legal team will put this on the Instructors.
Well... yeah. How exactly would responsibility for this fall on PADI?
@@David-ql1hd Yeah, people seem to think PADI instructors are directly mind-controlled by PADI for all their decisions...
PADI will expel the instructors and then use their incident reports to help the plaintiff win a larger settlement against the expelled PADI instructors. It's what PADI does.... Every Single Time!
@@UniqueScubaLakewoodRanch if the instructor isn't following established guidelines, I see ZERO issue with this.
I've been on dives with instructors who blatantly ignored basic safety guidelines.
For instance, I had one tell the group we didn't really need a buddy on this dive because the water was so clear. Sure, the water was clear, but it was also a deep wreck dive. Everyone was in their own little world, spread out all over the place. One person got caught up in some snagged fishing line, freaked, ditched their BC and bolted because no one was around to help them.
I'd have no issue with PADI hanging that person out to dry.
Please don't take this as me saying PADI is great... just saying in that these instances, I don't have an issue with it.
Things happen. Every time you put on gear you take responsibility for yourself.
Well hard to say. If the two guides had stayed one ahead and one as the last of the team, probably they would have noticed that he had a problem. But we do not know all the circumstances so I think it would anyway be better if he has given a signal by 100 bar rather than 50 (maybe he did...)
it all depends on the qualification the guys was holding and if the dive shop let him dive beyond what his limits should have been. Cavern Dive is not a cave but depending on the site bringing an open water diver would be not advisable especially if is air consumption would be problematic at deeps. There is not enough details given to really now what happened. I find it just weird that when your buddy tells you he is low air you would not stay extremely close to be withing air sharing distance.
My personal point of contention would be the extent of the diver's experience and if that was sufficient. Apart from that we all need to take more responsibility for ourselves and our choices.
Don't worry about padi, they will just throw the instructors under the bus like they always do.
Use your brain before using your mouth. Do you sue the driving instructor for every driver that drives over the limit or who has a fatal crash? No?
Suing PADI for the decisions of individual instructors makes no sense. Unless you're claiming that PADI guidelines caused the incident, or that the instructors had prior offenses for which PADI should have revoked their licenses.
@@KimonFrousios look into the history of padi doing this to instructors when involved in a lawsuit before you open yours.
Crich775 how would this be padis fault you moron?
@@Robert_H_Diver Never once did I say it was padis fault, sorry you couldn't read.
As a diver myself you have to dive within your limits no question. While you should be able to trust so called professionals it's your life on the line.
As an instructor, what a negligent mess. I would not have taken him down without knowing his qualifications. At 50 bar, that’s a crisis, add the cavern and it’s a disaster waiting to happen.
Charlie foxtrot gungho diving. Experienced a lot of this kind of diving in Cayman. I used to get nasty comments for surfacing on my reserve. I was "cutting the dive short"
I recall the saying "there are old divers and there are bold divers, but there are no bold old divers". I would be at a different dive shop the next day.
All very sad. Sounds like the DMs did a fair job and the divers are always responsible for thier own level of competence. The lack of a body "ever" is probably more of an investigation.
First off, it is very limited information to present a uniform opinion on this.
In most cases, a fatal accident is the result of a cascade of failures and/or bad decisions.
Could John's death have been prevented? Yes, likely. The fact that his experience or certification level hasn't been checked rings some bells. I do not know this cave or cavern and the difficulty level. That being said I wouldn't be the one taking an uncertified or OW diver with a handful of dives into a real cave or cave system.
But John also had a responsibility to cancel his dive if he felt he wasn't up for it. About the 50 bar, the normal rule would say whoever calls the dive and signals low on air terminates the dive and starts a controlled ascent. But depending on the situation, the instructor's judgement is an important factor. Maybe the instructor made the call, having let's say 160 bar left in his tank (just assuming here John was a guzzler), to return to an underwater swim-through of 100 meters using his octo or buddy breathing instead of ending a good way from shore in strong currents without a pick-up boat present.
I don't quite understand how they lost him though. There were 2 instructors for a total of 4 divers. One should have stayed with John (and his buddy) and address the situation - which could have induced panic for John. the other instructor could have opted to finish the dive with the 2 others according to the dive plan.
Maybe there was an error in judgement, but does his wife have the right to sue? No. The USA has a lawsuit culture, this is also why PADI and all other agencies and dive shops usually have you signing all kinds of waivers. Diving always has some risk involved, mitigated by proper equipment, training and staying within your limits.
Maybe this is a minor point, and I understand your meaning, but she absolutely has a right to sue (whether she should or sued, or whether she should win, are different questions). I think his level of certification (if any) is a major factor here. It could easily be argued that taking an uncertified diver on a cave dive that had multiple deaths in the few years before (not to mention leaving them on their own with low air) would be gross negligence. At least in many states in the USA, no matter what waiver you sign, you can't waive your right to sue for gross negligence. I don't know about other jurisdictions.
Wasn’t there a guy in the USA named John Jones who died while caving ? I suggest no one with that name should go anywhere near a cave 🙈 Rest In Peace buddy
Saipan, pronounced 'sie pan'. S eye pan. No 'sei pan'.
Yeah that's the issue here, someone with a different accent pronouncing something different to you, FFS 🤦♂️
You must be the life of the party
Family suing everyone... Just a bunch of low caliber people trying to get something for nothing. The diver is an adult, and his own decision.
I mean sounds like they did about all they could. Who knows what happened.
I dunno... Ever find a body?
Mark Jr. did great!
His wife must be a Millennial, blaming everyone else for her husband's death, when as a diver he should know his limitations. So sick of people trying to go for the big money lawsuit after the death of a loved one. How does she know he was never asked about his dive experience, how does she know that the dive and the difficulty of this dive was never discussed? This is a flat out money grab.
Actually, John was 65 years-old, far from being a Millennial.
@@CDeanhartman I may be joking about the Millennials but, it still doesn't take away from the fact that it is always someone else fault and not his own fault. From the very little I have found online about this story, it doesn't look like his wife was around to make claims that he wasn't briefed and I haven't found anything from the person diving with him that day that confirms the wife's claims.
@@CDeanhartman Edward never suggested that *John* must be a Millenial; he said "His wife must be a Millennial..." Maybe John married a woman much younger than himself.
@@seikibrian8641I never suggested that Ms. Jones wasnt a Millennial. Since things have devolved into the pedantic, the couple were married for 46 years. Ergo, neither are/were Millennials.
Edward Wabals sounds more like boomer culture to me
Diver fault.