Thanks for watching! This will be my last upload until next year but I plan to come out swinging in January. If you want to hear me yap though I have a 2nd channel that's mainly just me talking about current events in Smash that will get a few more videos this year -> ua-cam.com/channels/X_lEy7sh5QNzQwb-XGRBPg.html
One thing I wish this video touched upon is Cloud's impact on doubles in Smash 4. Smash 4 dubs was God's Format until that character dropped. He was as meta-defining in doubles as people thought Bayo was in singles
I also believe Doubles Cloud was the only ban in the Smash series to actually stick. Not double Cloud or a dominant team, but a Cloud partner in general.
I’ve been saying for years that, when it came to low/mid level smash 4 (your locals/regionals/etc) Cloud was more prominent and problematic than Bayo, he was the perfect blend of easy to use and unbelievably oppressive, he straight up invalidates a large chunk of the roster
Bayo was the best character in the game, but Cloud served a Melee Sheik/Puff/Peach role of being the mid tier gatekeeper. With Bayo though, she embodied a lot of what people hated about 4 or Smash in general, TOD's and early rage kills especially. She also had a better disadvantage and recovery than Cloud easily.
Honestly, my biggest retrospective pet-peeve of SSB4 is that we never ended up with an official tier list that reflected the 2018 meta; the final one was made at the end of 2017, but it meant that all the meaningful meta progression that occurred during the game's final year of 2018 was never reflected in any official way. The main true way to see how the meta of SSB4 evolved during the last year would be to hunt down many individual top player's final tier lists, which takes time and far more open to regional/personal bias.
yea its weird, especially with a disclaimer at the beginning already. I get it you dont want to glorify shitty people but this is a video mostly talking about data, saying zero won a lot isnt like some endorsement of his character lol
It wasn't single handedly! Dabuz, Leo, and Tweek were also absolute monsters vs. Bayo players. One big reason Bayo took off in 2018 was because Tweek picked her up as a comain, Leo used her as a replacement for MK, and Dabuz started to lose more sets vs. Bayo. Until 2018 he was at a 90% winrate vs. Bayo. Retirements + picking Bayo up were huge reasons for the shift.
Nah not really, that's only true in retrospect over the entire lifespan of the game. He was on a 6 month ish hiatus for finger injury during the prominence of prepatch bayo, and then never won dominantly again after he came back
He could’ve been a great part of the community if he hadn’t been asking minors for nudes a while back. Im genuinely disappointed with all the people rooting for his comeback. I left the scene in 2020 when all this came out and it’s a shame to see people not hold him accountable 4 years later
I know quite a few of the top talent for smash 4 are players that are now banned from competeing for various reasons that I won't touch on further. But it still feels kind of weird to blur their names in the vods. Its like erasing history or something. Even if many of them turned out to not be great people they still earned the tournament wins they got. It feels weird to refer to them by name but then still blur their names in the video.
People also forget how much sauce the last 2 years of Smash 4 had without Bayo. People were labbing crazy footstool extentions with characters like Falcon of all things. And I dont think any doubles has come close to the lunacy of Smash 4 by the end of the games lifespan I was tuning into tourneys just to watch doubles
It's weird how Brawl was looked down upon at the time but now it's improved with Smash 4 not being the newest any more. Cloud was definitely as big of a threat as Bayo if not more due to how easy he was to pick up and how common he was.
This was always what actually killed Sm4sh. Not everyone could pilot Bayonetta no matter what the haters told you, but Cloud invalidated the same amount of characters for CONSIDERABLY less effort than any other character. Low-level players would destroy most of pools with Cloud and then immediately get culled by all the top talent of the game which left the Bayonetta's free reign. Everyone, myself included, stopped playing in brackets because of the hyper-prevalence of Cloud. And if you beat someone in pools who didn't play Cloud, you had at LEAST a 30% chance that they would switch off to Cloud and lock you in an unwinnable match-up. Bayonetta was bad, yes, but she didn't have a stranglehold on brackets like Cloud did. That he was virtually uncontestable unless you played one of the 7 characters he didnt immediately delete is way more toxic to me than a character who could randomly kill you at zero.
Wait another 3 or 4 years for the kids who played smash 4 to become 18-20 yrs old and start yapping about how underrated it was. Thats why brawl is "somehow" getting a comeback; most ppl eho didnt like it still dont, but a bunch of 30 yr olds are not wasting their time arguing with nostalgia brained 20 yr olds about it
As hated as this game was, I can’t bring myself to hate it as well. I’m aware of all its shortcomings and I still loved it as a competitive game. This game got me into smash and I was really invested in the smash 4 storyline back in 2016-2018. Hell if this was ported to the switch with online capability I’d play the hell out of it.
Are UA-camrs so painfully scarred of being canceled, that they feel the need to blur the actual faces of controversial figures? Have we reached this point?
One thing I truly love about smash 4 is two stocks. It gave the game a street fighter like 2-round per match system. The slower pace made you appreciate every percent in both stocks before the match ended.
Smash 4 was just how I remembered unfortunately. There was a period in 2016 where the diversity in competition was peak but ultimately we all eventually just prayed there was less Bayo in top 8.
I think a missing piece of the puzzle here is that a lot of the Bayonetta discourse of the era was fueled by vibes more than the raw data. Quantitatively, characters like Cloud in doubles and Sheik in early Smash4 meant they had more *objective* impact. But the narrative surrounding Bayonetta made her *perceived* impact far stronger. Even Brawl Meta Knight, who was infamously overpowered and received partial bans, didn't have as much toxic sentiment from its players. - Playing against her was exceptionally stressful and frustrating because of the slim-but-palpable chance to get 0-to-deathed off any interaction. - Her earliest reps like CaptainZack and Mistake/Tamim were low-profile players prior to Bayo, giving the sense that she was an easy character (lol, no) and carried the players in question (debatable and varied per person). - Said players were also controversial as actual people. - Local and major tournament attendance was in the midst of a steep decline. That happened for a lot of reasons but was partially attributable to Bayonetta. It led to this really nasty aura surrounding the character which never really dissipated until several months after Ultimate came out.
I don't care what anybody says The smash 4 competitive zeitgeist was way better than ultimates. It's a shame that memory compresses with time and all most people seem to be able to remember about this game is Bayonetta and child predation
Man i miss Smash 4. I wasn't old enough to compete, but i wanted to be good. I loved the way sheik played and wanted to be good. I was only like 12-13 at the time, but i wanted to be good. I hate the way Ult plays and I'm so disappointed in it. It's an unpopular opinion i know, but i just don't like Ult as much as Smash 4
Okay, blurring banned players is a bit much. Like, why? It's, as you say, historical. The whole disclaimer seems unnecessary too. It'd be like if WW2 documentaries both said they don't support angry Austrian man and then blurred his face anytime he came up.
sm4sh controls soooooo much better than Ultimate, game is way worse, but simply controlling your characters is much smoother, responsive and less laggy Ultimate really screwed up with input delay+double buffer system, in those ways its the worst smash game.
@@auzzpanda3497 Yeah. If I take a break from Ult and come back its like I have to adjust a bit every time because of it. Essentially what this does is make it so that you can react to less stuff and have to make more guesses. Even if you are a pro there's no getting around this. I have no idea why there wasn't massive outrage over this because this stuff is extremely important. 80 characters but you squander basic stuff? Not ok.
I'd unironically say that Ultimate is better in PvP but worse singleplayer. Which sounds nuts because Ultimate has much more singleplayer content, but I just don't enjoy said content as much as Smash 4's. Ultimate reuses the same stuff contantly and if I don't like the gimmicks and bossfights the first time, then I won't like them the 4th time. I essencially just got my singleplayer-fill by 100%ing the first map of world of light and then didn't even bother unlocking the full roster before staying online the rest of my playtime.
@@lpfan4491 I think most people would definitely agree with you about this. I also thought custom moves were a ton of fun. You could just not use the game breaking ones. With Customs worse characters could jump tiers and fight the strongest in the game on almost even footing, that was awesome. Its a shame they didn't put more effort into the custom moves or patch them or have a better unlock system for them imo. Would've been awesome if they could have been on. But there was just too many broken ones and in practical terms it was also not possible because of how you unlocked them.
When talking about pre patch Diddy let’s not forget Diddy players hadn’t started experimenting with up throw and down tilt confirms so early meta Diddy could even potentially be stronger than what it was
4:07 Dont forget Spinjumps, the tech where you could combine the momentum of a spin dash with your double jump to recover horizontally from the blast zone all the way to the ledge.
i don't think showing banned players means you condone their behavior. If anything, it's more distracting because of half the screen is blurred, but most people watching a video on Smash 4 probably have some idea of who they are anyways (plus you say their names)
I don’t mind giving less attention to him, he’s trying to make a UA-cam comeback and any more attention he gets only helps him. Pedos like him should be shunned by the rest of the scene
Videos like this are really helpful and important to me since I only got into smash in mid 2019, so I missed a lot of this. Having a record of some kind is awesome.
I played 64, melee and a bit of Brawl but then I had an hiatus from Smash Bros until Post-Covid Ultimate. This video was awesome breaking some preconceived ideas I had about Smash 4, because from speaking to others or from internet most of my knowledge was about the last two years and Evoo so I was a very distorted view of the metagame. Great work as always!
I feel like you could've had a part in the video where you go over the character dominance stuff but disclude ZeRo from everything. Would've been interesting to see
I think everyone already having mains by the time Bayo released and the fact you need to master her combos made it so a lot of people didn’t pick her up, unlike Brawl MK who was available before even play Substance, was contrastly easy to pick up (and really fun) and the best character.
I was somebody who was heavily involved in commentating and playing throughout sm4sh's life span and I really appreciate this retrospective. There was a period of time nobody remembers after sheik got nerfed for almost a year nobody knew who the best character in the game was and the whole meta was up for grabs in a way that I've never seen since.
18:30 how is Bowser there? Nairo used him as a secondary that won him sets to get into multiple top 8s (most notably beating zero twice with it and also showing up in a very famous counter pick war vs twerk)
Haven't finished the video, but got a few thoughts. "Before Brawl was viewed as the weird, outcast family member and Sm4sh was cool. But now that preceptive has been flipped." IDK what you call this cycle, but it happens all the time. (I use the Star Wars Prequels as a prime example) Where the audience that grew-up with a previously & generally panned product, become the vocal opinion and reminiscent in it fondly. Brawl has hit its phase for it, and it's only a matter of time before Sm4sh does as well. Even then, a lot of Sm4sh's "infamous" rep is more just the game being an easy target now: - It's higher production version came out on a failed console that's not old enough for many to be nostalgia about. - It released when Social Media and Content Creation really took off/become a standard, so a lot of it's oddities were both experienced and documented at first hand. - Was the first game with patches and DLC, that crafted plenty of positives and negatives. (The negatives/"What could have been" end having a way more lasting impact to gamers. AKA the negativity bias) - Despite the notable mechanic and mode differences, it was basically replaced by the bigger and (agreed to be) better Ult which is arguably the most similar to it's predecessor. Did it have big problems? Well I'll answer that question with another: Did any Smash game not have big problems?
Freezie, from one video editor to another, will you pls tell a brotha the name of wiggle-like effect used on the bayo portrait at 0:16? Fantastic work btw
I don't agree with blurring the banned players in their sets when they still have their in game tags shown, and you're mentioning them anyway. I think just saying you're not trying to honor them is enough, but the way it was done here makes the censorship feel inconsistent, distracting, and pointless
Funnily enough, I did this recently with Pokemon's VGC 2015 and CHALK. CHALK was still an amazing archetype, but there really was a lot of diversity at Worlds that year. Those diverse picks just don't get mentioned because all anyone can remember about 2015 was just five Pokemon.
Really great video! I appreciate the insight and nuance discussing this game when the vast majority of people write it off. One thing I'm curious on though, is Bowser really that low on the list shown at the end? Bowser saw some relevancy as a counterpick character back around 2017 iirc and while he was contesting with DK who shared a very similar niche, I do wonder if Bowser actually lacked concrete results through the lens of being a counterpick character from some players. If my memory serves me right I believe it was Nairo who really took advantage of Bowsers strengths in tournament although I may be confusing him with another player. Regardless fantastic video, I quite enjoyed it and I'm very glad that you brought up how Ultimates announcement impacted the meta of the game a lot. If the game had gone on longer the meta would definitely have developed more, especially regarding how we view Bayonetta as players got more competent at dealing with her combos and as more players would experiment with counterpicking her as she had a few matchups where she definitely had to work much harder in. Love the video I can't wait to watch your other content, cheers.
@SSJPENGUIN which players were performing well with Puff? The only player that comes to mind who got great results with Puff is Captain L who used Jigglypuff as a secondary. His best win off the top of my head was taking a set against Larry Lurr with it at a regional in BC but I'm not 100% sure about it I would need to go through his sets again.
Smash 4 would've been top/high tier characters would've been balanced if they all got their best version except bayo and cloud, pre-patch diddy, sheik, meta knight, post-patch marth, mewtwo would've been interesting
I can't stand this blurring of names, it's bogus. It's so disingenuous and it serves to erase history rather than celebrate it. I don't care what these people did NOW (not saying they're good people, I just don't care about their actions), if you're covering things from a historical lens, you cover them as you would in the moment, as such the reference of these people should remain discreet and clear no matter who they are NOW. All blurring their names does is remove context and serve to alienate new viewers from learning more about the community you're indirectly covering with this video. For this reason, no, I will not be subscribing even though I appreciate the content you produce. I cannot, in good faith, support platforms of people who are so allergic to history and can't accept that the past is the past.
Thanks for this video, Smash 4 was not as one dimensional as people remember. 2017 was an amazing year for the game too, the rise of Leo and Tweek, the retirement of ZeRo. Also the EU and Japan meta had less Bayonetta (still very present but not as much)
I remember when ZeRo absolutely dominated Smash 4. People don't talk about his sets anymore but i remember when he faced Ranai and people called it big, when he lost to Luhtie, when he was sweating against Tsu, etc. Smash 4 is mostly forgotten by the fact that people don't want to talk about the banned players lile ZeRo, Ally, Salem and Nairo who were some of the best Smash 4 players, and the history can't be accuratly told without them.
Fantastic video. As someone who lived through it as a mid level player I can say for sure Bayo would’ve dominated just like brawl mk had the meta continued. Small corrections if memory serves I believe Dath made top 8 at a major with Robin, getting 3rd(?). And Larry won Mexico Saga over Zero with Fox
Mii Brawler was good in the early meta, until customs were banned 😢I wonder how the game would have gone they banned individual problematic customs like trip sapling instead of all of them at once
God the charizard buffs made charizard more fun so i rotate between zard and mario in the smash 4 days during the locals a friend hosted where i lived i made a lot of people lock in when i made people learn the zard match up he was my counter pick for cloud and diddy but the moment i see a fox i had to switch to mario. Its what happens new game and final patch ends the game and with no new game in the future ultimate will slowly lose players but still have a dedicated playerbase and scene until a new game is announced
Smash 4 also had some amazing player storylines and it's just unfortunate that so many of them turned out to be the people they were. To the point where we can now never celebrate what, at the time, was some fantastic narrative
I can understand blurring the faces since if you allow people to react on Twitch, they won’t get banned for showing banned people, but naming them aloud and then hiding their tags (and sometimes you blur the tags sometimes you don’t, so it’s just completely inconsistent and a detriment to the overall quality of the video) is just odd. It’s all over the place and just makes it look
Thanks for watching! This will be my last upload until next year but I plan to come out swinging in January. If you want to hear me yap though I have a 2nd channel that's mainly just me talking about current events in Smash that will get a few more videos this year -> ua-cam.com/channels/X_lEy7sh5QNzQwb-XGRBPg.html
i love you freezie
Cloud absolutely killed mid/lower level play. Sakurai straight up said he made the character very strong and very easy to play and yeaaaaaah it showed
One thing I wish this video touched upon is Cloud's impact on doubles in Smash 4.
Smash 4 dubs was God's Format until that character dropped. He was as meta-defining in doubles as people thought Bayo was in singles
This
Everyone started running double cloud as soon as he dropped, but to be fair he was fun af
IIrc stats wise Cloud was just as oppressive in doubles then Meta Knight was in Brawl if not more, it was insane
I also believe Doubles Cloud was the only ban in the Smash series to actually stick. Not double Cloud or a dominant team, but a Cloud partner in general.
@@Driff97 nah double meta knight in brawl was banned
I’ve been saying for years that, when it came to low/mid level smash 4 (your locals/regionals/etc) Cloud was more prominent and problematic than Bayo, he was the perfect blend of easy to use and unbelievably oppressive, he straight up invalidates a large chunk of the roster
Bayo was the best character in the game, but Cloud served a Melee Sheik/Puff/Peach role of being the mid tier gatekeeper. With Bayo though, she embodied a lot of what people hated about 4 or Smash in general, TOD's and early rage kills especially. She also had a better disadvantage and recovery than Cloud easily.
Cause Cloud was just so easy. Big sword, strong killing, very few combos needed, fast af. One button neutral.
Coney take. Based.
@@bnsz8704Was?
I mean yeah, but his disadvantage was doo doo. I bet if the meta was longer even mid level players would have been able to adapt to him.
Honestly, my biggest retrospective pet-peeve of SSB4 is that we never ended up with an official tier list that reflected the 2018 meta; the final one was made at the end of 2017, but it meant that all the meaningful meta progression that occurred during the game's final year of 2018 was never reflected in any official way.
The main true way to see how the meta of SSB4 evolved during the last year would be to hunt down many individual top player's final tier lists, which takes time and far more open to regional/personal bias.
If you’re going to mention players just don’t sensor the names in the set. Doesn’t make sense at all.
agreed. this vid has way to many flaws including that
Idk I think there's some sort of legal problems with the tournaments. I wouldn't jump to conclusions like that.
Super soy bros
@@RegalBlob2ggc doesn't exist anymore and that's like 90% of the footage used
yea its weird, especially with a disclaimer at the beginning already. I get it you dont want to glorify shitty people but this is a video mostly talking about data, saying zero won a lot isnt like some endorsement of his character lol
ZeRo accomplishing 50 tournament wins in a row will always be the best achievement in the smash series
M2K being bitw in Melee and Brawl probably is the best one
THANK YOU FOR MENTIONING ZERO, IM TIRED OF YTBERS ACTING LIKE NOT SAYING THE NAME WILL DO ANYTHING, YES, ZERO IS, IN FACT, GOATED AT SMASH
@@Wulf_YTWas*
Dude most of them were locals or weeklies lmao
@@Wulf_YT zeros a pedophile
As someone who came into the Smash Community during late Smash 4 I appreciate this video a lot.
Crazy how ZeRo single handedly stopped Bayo from being as prominent as she could’ve been.
It wasn't single handedly! Dabuz, Leo, and Tweek were also absolute monsters vs. Bayo players. One big reason Bayo took off in 2018 was because Tweek picked her up as a comain, Leo used her as a replacement for MK, and Dabuz started to lose more sets vs. Bayo. Until 2018 he was at a 90% winrate vs. Bayo. Retirements + picking Bayo up were huge reasons for the shift.
@@CoolbroSwaggins
Cosmos was great vs Bayo too, as was Esam
Nah not really, that's only true in retrospect over the entire lifespan of the game. He was on a 6 month ish hiatus for finger injury during the prominence of prepatch bayo, and then never won dominantly again after he came back
He could’ve been a great part of the community if he hadn’t been asking minors for nudes a while back. Im genuinely disappointed with all the people rooting for his comeback. I left the scene in 2020 when all this came out and it’s a shame to see people not hold him accountable 4 years later
@@N279 People are rooting for his comeback because she didn't knew her age plus, he was still a teenager himself lmao
I know quite a few of the top talent for smash 4 are players that are now banned from competeing for various reasons that I won't touch on further. But it still feels kind of weird to blur their names in the vods. Its like erasing history or something. Even if many of them turned out to not be great people they still earned the tournament wins they got. It feels weird to refer to them by name but then still blur their names in the video.
Wait how’d people even get banned? Were they somehow cheating or maybe exposed for being creeps?
@@hexbug101Either creeps, or homo/transphobes, or both
@@hexbug101 The second one, except for Captain Zack who cheated and Ally who did both
Captain zack was the ultimate creep, groomer, and sexual abuser. The guy is legit evil.
@@Invader-xy2deCaptain Zack did both too
Triple jump was not a glitch, it still is a thing now and they widened the window to carry the 3rd jump
Smash 4 in 2024? Am I DREAMING
IKE PFP!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@ yeah. My main in Ultimate
@JakeSm4sh YOOOOOO ME TOO
@ no thanks
7:30 coney jumpscare
cant wait for this movie
FELLAS!
I would be so mad 😡😡
People also forget how much sauce the last 2 years of Smash 4 had without Bayo. People were labbing crazy footstool extentions with characters like Falcon of all things. And I dont think any doubles has come close to the lunacy of Smash 4 by the end of the games lifespan I was tuning into tourneys just to watch doubles
It's weird how Brawl was looked down upon at the time but now it's improved with Smash 4 not being the newest any more.
Cloud was definitely as big of a threat as Bayo if not more due to how easy he was to pick up and how common he was.
Brawl is the best casual fighting game ever.
This was always what actually killed Sm4sh. Not everyone could pilot Bayonetta no matter what the haters told you, but Cloud invalidated the same amount of characters for CONSIDERABLY less effort than any other character.
Low-level players would destroy most of pools with Cloud and then immediately get culled by all the top talent of the game which left the Bayonetta's free reign. Everyone, myself included, stopped playing in brackets because of the hyper-prevalence of Cloud. And if you beat someone in pools who didn't play Cloud, you had at LEAST a 30% chance that they would switch off to Cloud and lock you in an unwinnable match-up.
Bayonetta was bad, yes, but she didn't have a stranglehold on brackets like Cloud did. That he was virtually uncontestable unless you played one of the 7 characters he didnt immediately delete is way more toxic to me than a character who could randomly kill you at zero.
Brawl will always have subspace emmissary. The final smashes were awesome though not competitevely sound. Was a very fun game.
Wait another 3 or 4 years for the kids who played smash 4 to become 18-20 yrs old and start yapping about how underrated it was. Thats why brawl is "somehow" getting a comeback; most ppl eho didnt like it still dont, but a bunch of 30 yr olds are not wasting their time arguing with nostalgia brained 20 yr olds about it
As hated as this game was, I can’t bring myself to hate it as well. I’m aware of all its shortcomings and I still loved it as a competitive game. This game got me into smash and I was really invested in the smash 4 storyline back in 2016-2018. Hell if this was ported to the switch with online capability I’d play the hell out of it.
In 5 years, people will start fondly reminiscent on it.
Yeah it was Diddy Kong, but that Grand Finals where there was two Bayonettas was diabolical during Smash 4 era. I still hate that memory.
Are UA-camrs so painfully scarred of being canceled, that they feel the need to blur the actual faces of controversial figures? Have we reached this point?
One thing I truly love about smash 4 is two stocks. It gave the game a street fighter like 2-round per match system. The slower pace made you appreciate every percent in both stocks before the match ended.
This editing is insane. And great documentation, hope you can keep up bangers like this!
Smash 4 was just how I remembered unfortunately. There was a period in 2016 where the diversity in competition was peak but ultimately we all eventually just prayed there was less Bayo in top 8.
Off topic, but i love how sonic and mario are always right next to the other in the tierlist
I will never understand the Smash 4 hate pver the last few years. It was a great time while it was still popular.
Great video, glad that there’s so much quality smash content this year 👌
I think a missing piece of the puzzle here is that a lot of the Bayonetta discourse of the era was fueled by vibes more than the raw data.
Quantitatively, characters like Cloud in doubles and Sheik in early Smash4 meant they had more *objective* impact. But the narrative surrounding Bayonetta made her *perceived* impact far stronger. Even Brawl Meta Knight, who was infamously overpowered and received partial bans, didn't have as much toxic sentiment from its players.
- Playing against her was exceptionally stressful and frustrating because of the slim-but-palpable chance to get 0-to-deathed off any interaction.
- Her earliest reps like CaptainZack and Mistake/Tamim were low-profile players prior to Bayo, giving the sense that she was an easy character (lol, no) and carried the players in question (debatable and varied per person).
- Said players were also controversial as actual people.
- Local and major tournament attendance was in the midst of a steep decline. That happened for a lot of reasons but was partially attributable to Bayonetta.
It led to this really nasty aura surrounding the character which never really dissipated until several months after Ultimate came out.
I don't care what anybody says
The smash 4 competitive zeitgeist was way better than ultimates. It's a shame that memory compresses with time and all most people seem to be able to remember about this game is Bayonetta and child predation
Child predators do tend to take the fun out of things
lol why use zeitgeist instead of just sayin spirit
@@lokks2130 why not what are you on about
@leaffinite2001 sounds silly. Not how you usually use the term 🤷🏿♂️
@lokks2130 it has a slightly different meaning than spirit, its not inappropriately used
I wish Smash 4 had another 4 years giving Bidou time to shine + develop
Especially since Ultimate lacks super worthwhile micro-spacing options
Oh my god i forgot about that! I used to use it a lot before I mained Ryu and it because irrelevant. Would have been crazy to see how bidou progressed
Man i miss Smash 4. I wasn't old enough to compete, but i wanted to be good. I loved the way sheik played and wanted to be good. I was only like 12-13 at the time, but i wanted to be good. I hate the way Ult plays and I'm so disappointed in it. It's an unpopular opinion i know, but i just don't like Ult as much as Smash 4
Okay, blurring banned players is a bit much. Like, why? It's, as you say, historical. The whole disclaimer seems unnecessary too. It'd be like if WW2 documentaries both said they don't support angry Austrian man and then blurred his face anytime he came up.
Some people do not like seeing these people. Probably because they did irreparable damage to Smash's reputation.
Ye. That’s like blurring the ww2 German dictator anytime he shows up in like a oversimplified vid
@@illford who and why.
A games community isnt a person that needs to look spotless
wdym blurring banned players? He consistently mentions banned players in this video and doesnt ignore their achievements
The difference is these people are still alive
sm4sh controls soooooo much better than Ultimate, game is way worse, but simply controlling your characters is much smoother, responsive and less laggy
Ultimate really screwed up with input delay+double buffer system, in those ways its the worst smash game.
yeah in smash 4 it really feels like the character moves when you do inputs, ultimate feel a lot more chunky
@@auzzpanda3497 Yeah. If I take a break from Ult and come back its like I have to adjust a bit every time because of it.
Essentially what this does is make it so that you can react to less stuff and have to make more guesses. Even if you are a pro there's no getting around this.
I have no idea why there wasn't massive outrage over this because this stuff is extremely important. 80 characters but you squander basic stuff? Not ok.
I'd unironically say that Ultimate is better in PvP but worse singleplayer. Which sounds nuts because Ultimate has much more singleplayer content, but I just don't enjoy said content as much as Smash 4's. Ultimate reuses the same stuff contantly and if I don't like the gimmicks and bossfights the first time, then I won't like them the 4th time.
I essencially just got my singleplayer-fill by 100%ing the first map of world of light and then didn't even bother unlocking the full roster before staying online the rest of my playtime.
@@lpfan4491 I think most people would definitely agree with you about this. I also thought custom moves were a ton of fun. You could just not use the game breaking ones. With Customs worse characters could jump tiers and fight the strongest in the game on almost even footing, that was awesome.
Its a shame they didn't put more effort into the custom moves or patch them or have a better unlock system for them imo. Would've been awesome if they could have been on. But there was just too many broken ones and in practical terms it was also not possible because of how you unlocked them.
When talking about pre patch Diddy let’s not forget Diddy players hadn’t started experimenting with up throw and down tilt confirms so early meta Diddy could even potentially be stronger than what it was
10:04 the triple jump tech isn't a glitch, it's intentional. iirc it was in the Bayonetta games and it's still possible to do in smash ultimate.
Smash 4 was the closest we ever got to ‘Brawl+’ as a legit game from Nintendo
Ultimate could learn a lot from ‘Brawl+’
Also perfect pivots were epic
I didn't expect to see smash 4 bayo propaganda
Smash 4 content? LFG!!!
7:32 AAAAAAAAAA
I was not ready for that jumpscare
4:07 Dont forget Spinjumps, the tech where you could combine the momentum of a spin dash with your double jump to recover horizontally from the blast zone all the way to the ledge.
Bowser did see some major top relevance when Nairo used him as a secondary
i don't think showing banned players means you condone their behavior. If anything, it's more distracting because of half the screen is blurred, but most people watching a video on Smash 4 probably have some idea of who they are anyways (plus you say their names)
I don’t mind giving less attention to him, he’s trying to make a UA-cam comeback and any more attention he gets only helps him. Pedos like him should be shunned by the rest of the scene
Please more smash 4 content we need it
Putting You Are the End at the end of the video was neat btw, such an amazing song
Great vid :]
All you need to remember is Pink Fresh vs Marss from Ktar Saga Winners Finals.
Best set of smash of all time
This and grands of the same tournament.
4:58 “THAT’S THE HOO HAA!”
Some people watch one video and think they know the whole smash 4 meta of “cloud and bayo too broken”
Videos like this are really helpful and important to me since I only got into smash in mid 2019, so I missed a lot of this. Having a record of some kind is awesome.
I played 64, melee and a bit of Brawl but then I had an hiatus from Smash Bros until Post-Covid Ultimate.
This video was awesome breaking some preconceived ideas I had about Smash 4, because from speaking to others or from internet most of my knowledge was about the last two years and Evoo so I was a very distorted view of the metagame.
Great work as always!
I feel like you could've had a part in the video where you go over the character dominance stuff but disclude ZeRo from everything. Would've been interesting to see
I think everyone already having mains by the time Bayo released and the fact you need to master her combos made it so a lot of people didn’t pick her up, unlike Brawl MK who was available before even play Substance, was contrastly easy to pick up (and really fun) and the best character.
Incredible content man hope you continue to see growth. Really refreshing to see non-slop smash content
What I remember are the nightmares and rage from dying at low percents. As long as you win neutral though, you don’t have to worry about that.
I was somebody who was heavily involved in commentating and playing throughout sm4sh's life span and I really appreciate this retrospective. There was a period of time nobody remembers after sheik got nerfed for almost a year nobody knew who the best character in the game was and the whole meta was up for grabs in a way that I've never seen since.
18:30 how is Bowser there? Nairo used him as a secondary that won him sets to get into multiple top 8s (most notably beating zero twice with it and also showing up in a very famous counter pick war vs twerk)
Haven't finished the video, but got a few thoughts.
"Before Brawl was viewed as the weird, outcast family member and Sm4sh was cool. But now that preceptive has been flipped."
IDK what you call this cycle, but it happens all the time. (I use the Star Wars Prequels as a prime example)
Where the audience that grew-up with a previously & generally panned product, become the vocal opinion and reminiscent in it fondly.
Brawl has hit its phase for it, and it's only a matter of time before Sm4sh does as well.
Even then, a lot of Sm4sh's "infamous" rep is more just the game being an easy target now:
- It's higher production version came out on a failed console that's not old enough for many to be nostalgia about.
- It released when Social Media and Content Creation really took off/become a standard, so a lot of it's oddities were both experienced and documented at first hand.
- Was the first game with patches and DLC, that crafted plenty of positives and negatives. (The negatives/"What could have been" end having a way more lasting impact to gamers. AKA the negativity bias)
- Despite the notable mechanic and mode differences, it was basically replaced by the bigger and (agreed to be) better Ult which is arguably the most similar to it's predecessor.
Did it have big problems?
Well I'll answer that question with another: Did any Smash game not have big problems?
LET'S GOOOO SMASH 4 CONTENT
Someone should mention: the music playing throughout the video is mostly from the Bomb Rush Cyberfunk OST.
Freezie, from one video editor to another, will you pls tell a brotha the name of wiggle-like effect used on the bayo portrait at 0:16? Fantastic work btw
Cptn faIcon’s highs were beautiful in ssb4
I don't agree with blurring the banned players in their sets when they still have their in game tags shown, and you're mentioning them anyway. I think just saying you're not trying to honor them is enough, but the way it was done here makes the censorship feel inconsistent, distracting, and pointless
Funnily enough, I did this recently with Pokemon's VGC 2015 and CHALK. CHALK was still an amazing archetype, but there really was a lot of diversity at Worlds that year. Those diverse picks just don't get mentioned because all anyone can remember about 2015 was just five Pokemon.
Damn the amount of banned players in this video is insane
6:51 Slick dodge
Brawl was the only Smash game to have a true dominant character
Really great video! I appreciate the insight and nuance discussing this game when the vast majority of people write it off. One thing I'm curious on though, is Bowser really that low on the list shown at the end? Bowser saw some relevancy as a counterpick character back around 2017 iirc and while he was contesting with DK who shared a very similar niche, I do wonder if Bowser actually lacked concrete results through the lens of being a counterpick character from some players. If my memory serves me right I believe it was Nairo who really took advantage of Bowsers strengths in tournament although I may be confusing him with another player.
Regardless fantastic video, I quite enjoyed it and I'm very glad that you brought up how Ultimates announcement impacted the meta of the game a lot. If the game had gone on longer the meta would definitely have developed more, especially regarding how we view Bayonetta as players got more competent at dealing with her combos and as more players would experiment with counterpicking her as she had a few matchups where she definitely had to work much harder in.
Love the video I can't wait to watch your other content, cheers.
Puff started to become a little more relevant at the end of the meta too
Spicy set-ups had been labbed + Puff fell out of a lot of Bayo strings
@SSJPENGUIN which players were performing well with Puff? The only player that comes to mind who got great results with Puff is Captain L who used Jigglypuff as a secondary. His best win off the top of my head was taking a set against Larry Lurr with it at a regional in BC but I'm not 100% sure about it I would need to go through his sets again.
For the Ness player FOW - you would pronounce it like "foe"
it was just his initials and we called it as such :P
I think with triple jump still persisting in Ult, I don't think it was ever a glitch.
Smash 4 would've been top/high tier characters would've been balanced if they all got their best version except bayo and cloud, pre-patch diddy, sheik, meta knight, post-patch marth, mewtwo would've been interesting
I can't stand this blurring of names, it's bogus. It's so disingenuous and it serves to erase history rather than celebrate it. I don't care what these people did NOW (not saying they're good people, I just don't care about their actions), if you're covering things from a historical lens, you cover them as you would in the moment, as such the reference of these people should remain discreet and clear no matter who they are NOW.
All blurring their names does is remove context and serve to alienate new viewers from learning more about the community you're indirectly covering with this video. For this reason, no, I will not be subscribing even though I appreciate the content you produce. I cannot, in good faith, support platforms of people who are so allergic to history and can't accept that the past is the past.
I love the editing style/animations.
This one is gonna bang
Fantastic write-up
Shout outs to the guy that won a Super Nova 2024 with Ness
I remember the reign of terror that was Diddy Kong
Nairo is still a pdf file
That's because smash 4 is so gimmicky. While brawl just is so unbalanced that it's.... bad but not annoying.
Feel they've both got pros & cons other eachother
Smash 4 air dodge was more engaging than Brawl's imo
Thanks for this video, Smash 4 was not as one dimensional as people remember. 2017 was an amazing year for the game too, the rise of Leo and Tweek, the retirement of ZeRo. Also the EU and Japan meta had less Bayonetta (still very present but not as much)
I'll still say that Civil War was the peak-est event that I've ever seen.
Cloud = oppression in smash 4, the nair alone was CRIMINAL
ANTi singlehandedly made sm4sh
Cloud was so perfect in 4....he's completely a neutered shell of himself in ultimate now.
Excellent video!
Did you forget about Nairo using Bowser? That was a legit secondary and beat ZeRo at a major 18:35
Minor gripes but ZSS grabbed ledge with side b not zair in this game. And FOW is pronounced Foe (I miss him) 🥲
This felt very nostalgic. 2015 was a whole decade ago huh?
Smash 4 gave me Mega Man who I’ve mained for 10+ years. All thanks to a cheese factory of a game.
Anyone know what's the song at 1:40?
I remember when ZeRo absolutely dominated Smash 4. People don't talk about his sets anymore but i remember when he faced Ranai and people called it big, when he lost to Luhtie, when he was sweating against Tsu, etc. Smash 4 is mostly forgotten by the fact that people don't want to talk about the banned players lile ZeRo, Ally, Salem and Nairo who were some of the best Smash 4 players, and the history can't be accuratly told without them.
Fantastic video. As someone who lived through it as a mid level player I can say for sure Bayo would’ve dominated just like brawl mk had the meta continued.
Small corrections if memory serves I believe Dath made top 8 at a major with Robin, getting 3rd(?). And Larry won Mexico Saga over Zero with Fox
Neither were considered majors under the PGR
@@eazyfreezieah rip Didn’t realize. Keep up the great work bud
I've been WAITING to see a nuanced take on Smash 4 for a good while, thank goodness. I miss it.
WE GETTIN' CYBERFUNK WITH THE FIRST BACKGROUND MUSIC
Thats because she was the last dlc character
I literally promise you if that game game had another year we would have seen even more bayo. Top players were between quitting or picking her up
Did you create the logo at 3:45 just for the video? LOL
Lol yeaaaaa
@@eazyfreezie hahahahaha thats sick
Mii Brawler was good in the early meta, until customs were banned 😢I wonder how the game would have gone they banned individual problematic customs like trip sapling instead of all of them at once
Coney jumpscare at 7:32
God the charizard buffs made charizard more fun so i rotate between zard and mario in the smash 4 days during the locals a friend hosted where i lived i made a lot of people lock in when i made people learn the zard match up he was my counter pick for cloud and diddy but the moment i see a fox i had to switch to mario. Its what happens new game and final patch ends the game and with no new game in the future ultimate will slowly lose players but still have a dedicated playerbase and scene until a new game is announced
That megafox shout out caught me of gaurd ima tell him next time i see him
Smash 4 also had some amazing player storylines and it's just unfortunate that so many of them turned out to be the people they were. To the point where we can now never celebrate what, at the time, was some fantastic narrative
Been needed smash 4 content recently tbh
FELLAS
I can understand blurring the faces since if you allow people to react on Twitch, they won’t get banned for showing banned people, but naming them aloud and then hiding their tags (and sometimes you blur the tags sometimes you don’t, so it’s just completely inconsistent and a detriment to the overall quality of the video) is just odd. It’s all over the place and just makes it look
Universal 3 Frame jump squat made the whole Ultimate cast feel too similar imo