even Chopin himself didn’t hear this melody…
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2022
- Pianist: Cyprien Katsaris
Piece: Frederic Chopin: Waltz, Op.64 No.2
Video used:
Concert at Carnegie Hall, New York City, 1999: In Memoriam Chopin, 150th Anniversary
• Cyprien Katsaris - liv...
Provided to UA-cam by Believe SAS
℗ Piano 21
Music Publisher: D.R
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www.buymeacoffee.com/TheExarion
People who don't play piano are probably unaware how extremely difficult this is... masterful voicing!
Yes, for real! Every touch and note has its own character, just like Chopin said.
You know, even though i am a pianist but i thought this was referring to the circled notes being part of the melody in chopin impromptu in C sharp minor but that was just my understanding.
ua-cam.com/video/Gus4dnQuiGk/v-deo.html
Idt it’s that hard technically, but to creatively spot it out and form a coherent musical idea is nothing short of brilliance
@@chenyanhao676 it is pretty hard technically as well, just the basics of that technique are battling physics at every turn, taking it to a level where even an amateur can spot what our politically misguided piano genius did is otherworldly.
@@SamTahbou why is he politically misguided
He made it sound like a Godowsky arrangement without playing any extra notes
This is literally the first thing that came to my mind hearing this!
perfectly described
Godowsky's recording also has the accented first notes on the Piu Mosso. I think it's an old playing preference.
@@imdarealani Rachmaninoff too
What a brilliant way of describing it!!! 🤣
Dude just added a whole new voice to the piece with the existing notes
@@johannkaribaldursson215 🤓
@@johannkaribaldursson215 🤓
@@_cytosine what did thst guy write
Dang, dude, he sure did that, dude! (^0^)
he did not. just overstated something that always been there.
This is nothing short of incredible. Not only did he find these "inner lines", he is able to play them convincingly and perfectly voiced while the notes are in different hands en sometimes in the middle of chords.
Check out Horowitz's rendition of Stars and Stripes Forever!
Evidently, many individuals are fond of turning Chopin into a circus. Thankfully, I will never be one of them.
Skillfully, yes.
Convincingly? Not so sure.
One may find "inner lines," in any piece. These are NOT "inner Lines."
Katsaris seems to be quite underrated. He’s easily one of the most talented living pianists. Katsaris playing Beethoven/Liszt Symphonies transposed for the piano is just mindboggling.
He's not underrated, he's just not as well known as Argerich, Horowitz and Cziffra. Anyone who has heard him knows he is one of the greatest pianists ever recorded. The generations in the late 19th century to the middle of the 20th century are perfect. Rubinstein, Rachaminoff, Giomar Novaes, Nelson Freire, Argerich, Cziffra, Katsaris, Horowitz between others
Didn't know this guy. But after this, I will look out for more.
Lang Lang
I have never seen anyone say he's underrated. What are you talking about.
@@vincent-ataramaniko that's not how being underrated works...
That pedalling is actually insane though why is no one talking about it.
everyone is talking about it. what you talkin bout
Good point, unfortunately nobody really talks about pedal, probably because it's really subtle. Very important, but hard to pinpoint exactly what the pianist is pedalling.
Because playing the inner voices is WAY harder
Katsaris is an improviser and composer. Not surprised he found these inner harmonic motions. This is essentially what makes Godowsky's transcriptions of Chopin great. Those hidden melodies that while simple are the best. Chopin was incorporating more counterpoint with time as we can see with the barcarolle and the fourth Ballade. If only he had lived to atleast his 50s like Beethoven what we have missed out on is truly a crime against humanity.
@Martin Baldwin-Edwards nothing wrong with being a purist but being so is not always the best or recommended
@Martin Baldwin-Edwards you seem pretty gun-ho about making people not appreciate this re-interpretation for some reason. you’re not obliged to stay on this video! feel free to seek out interpretations that better suit your tastes. there are thousands out there.
@Martin Baldwin-Edwards While I agree that Chopin would perhaps not find such reinterpretations of his music pleasant, in no way do I believe does that make the quality of the music low. There are flaws in Katsaris' playing but at a level like this it is not possible to decide, simply on personal taste, the quality of music be high/low
@Martin Baldwin-Edwards never implied that you don’t have a right to express your opinion. you, on the other hand, literally seem hellbent on restricting people’s freedom with art lol.
@Martin Baldwin-Edwards From another of your comments: “There are limits as to what is acceptable in interpreting other’s compositions.”
I love how he just smirks after playing that passages: "Yeah, that's the stuff..."
@Martin Baldwin-Edwards no one asked
The voicing technique is so masterful. I, personally think that it doesn't need that much of an extra melody for this piece, but it's such a fresh take on this (somewhat) overly played waltz.
I think that he's played this piece so many times that at that he couldn't help but vary it so it doesn't get boring to him tbh
You broke the UA-cam algorithm... Every time you change the name of this video it reappears in my recommended
Look at that sly smile.. this man knows EXACTLY what he is doing to our ears..
not even part of the voicing, but this vid helped me see how Katsaris distinguishes the grace notes at 0:45 and 0:50. 0:45 sounds much more slippery whereas 0:50 sounds more jumpy. both are so beautiful. Katsaris is a master at making the same material fresh.
Obviusly Chopin did think in counterpoint, this is just an example of how hidden counterpoint is on almost every work and a reason to keep searching and recording it
He absolutely did. Play the top note of each chord in the left hand of any nocturne, and you'll find a beautiful melody.
@@johannkaribaldursson215 Ha, he's obviously having a bit of fun as an encore. And showing off his virtuoso voicing skills.
Nice channel btw!
You obviously dońt know much about chopin i you state that. Chopin thought contrapunctally all the way. Those “accompaniments” are not merely such and he put every note where he heard it, thinking contrapunctally.
Wow! I definitely never would have imagined this. Thanks for bringing it to our attention, especially with the notes circled so I can really see it. As someone with a jazz background who feels a bit stifled by classical sometimes, this is eye opening. I see that some commenters hate it, but I like that the pianist is willing to take such liberty/risk in a formal performance.
funny thing is if you look at alot of the great composers in classical they were very prominent improvisers.
Some might call it excessive, but Katsaris's interpretation of this piece opened my eyes to a new dimension of piano when I heard this many years ago, and made both playing and listening to piano so much more captivating for me ever since. Happy to see Katsaris get some meme love 😂
I accept 0:12, but from 0:15 onwards it's excessive.
it is excessive. he highlighted a half-invented voice through the whole piece even though it is certainly not the most important one. Creative? yes. impressive technique? yes. Good interpretation? certainly not.
Katsaris played this during an encore and was being playful. He played a Waltz that everyone in the audience probably knew and highlighted inner melodies that most people have not heard before. It is nice that he is given everyone something to take home and think about.
I've credited Katsaris for years for showing me how important inner voices and their treatment are. You can find hidden passages everywhere and add a whole new layer to your playing. And he is the master of this as far as I'm concerned. I would love to hear him play Thalberg's Grand Caprice on Bellini's Sonnumbula.
Listen to Horowitz!
More voicings than the machination of Scriabin's mind. Absolutely based.
Oof
I get the essence here but Il have to disagree, objectively late Scriabin is still much more textually and musically dense.
Not disparaging the cool here polyphony though
Scriabin did that in almost all his compositions. That's why it's so difficult to play Scriabin music correctly. Some authors tell the story that when Scriabin died, Rachmaninoff planned a series of concerts playing only Scriabin's works, but the public asked him not to do it, because he would destroy all Scriabin pieces. Scriabin contemporaries often said that ONLY Scriabin himself could play Scriabin as it should be played. Noone nearly close ! 💥
Voices?
@@daliilars3350melody ligns = voices
This was something I learned about back in college: find hidden melodies in accompaniment figures or in sequences like he does in the arpeggiated sections
i remember this video being named smth like: "chopin himself never heard the melody" or smth lmao
One of the most phenomenal things my ears have ever heard
Have always loved this with the 2 underneath "melodies"--my piano teacher played it like that for me in 1962. He was a concert pianist who emigrated (escaped) from Russia to NYC.
The title was "Playing Connect the dots with Chopin" you can't fool me
This actually blew my mind. It's like listening to a whole different piece.
How have I never heard this melody in all my time practicing this piece.
I’m learning this piece right now, almost done with the middle part and I’ll be done. As much as I want to believe this, I think he added some of these notes. I know the melody during the faster part everytime you hit your thumb but I’m pretty sure he added the low note you’re hearing, unless I’m mixing it up. I can see him playing an extra note with his left hand
@@notkurt4104
I honestly think you are right.
I've learned this piece twice in my time as a pianist and both times I referred to this performance and couldn't quite get how the pianist was making the melody they were with their left hand.
I've always felt like I'm missing a few notes that they play.
Who knows, though. Besides, I prefer to play it my way.
@@notkurt4104 Also, good luck on learning this piece.
Once you get comfortable playing the whole thing it's really fun to change how you play it.
what is happening to your uploads lmao
He’s growing lol
Haha 😂 well… I have to admit this is the the first video of this „genre“ that I find is making an actual point
Wonderful rendition!
@@en-blanc-et-noir ur dumb
ne oluyor cidden
Best title yet xD
That BRAVO at the end lol same here
you’re the first person to mention it in over 180 comments… thank u 🥹
@@TheExarion I feel honored 🤣🙏
I love this - it's not some bombastic new arrangement or style, it sounds like classic Chopin with a fresh take. That's what I want to hear from musicians, it's a perfect mix of classic and new!
OMG! never heard this progression clearly before! I've been playing this for years
For 40 years now I have been listening and advocating Katsaris for this very reason, his inventiveness in finding alternate inner voices thus making pieces way more interesting to listen to. One can find myriads of examples like this in his recordings. It's not show off, it's originality and gives the listener an expanded perspective. Plus, rachmaninov and other amazing pianists of the golden era used to do this very naturally.
Goosebumps running all though my body hearing that inner voice. A huge motivation to learn this piece in Cyperien's style of interpretation.
My god... that is amazing... Beginning to love Katsaris these days. He did a really good performance on Liszt-Beethoven Symphony 3, and even did his own embellishments.
And hearing Chopin being played like that is so refreshing.
Might sound crazy but I’m pretty sure Chopin was aware of this. This is a pretty common and natural interpretive choice that most performers arrive at by themselves. This passage is repeated such an egregiously excessive number of times (~12ish) that you have to do whatever you can to vary it each time. Using suspensions to create simple countermelodies in stepwise sequences is absolutely bread-and-butter. It works extremely well in Bach too, who definitely informed Chopin’s affinity for this kind of writing. Chopin explicitly writes this kind of thing all the time too, including in the A section of this exact waltz, where there are descending sequences of half notes with the same pattern.
This definitely goes a bit further than what Chopin was thinking. Chopin definitely thought about how the chords connect to each other melodically, but this interpretation jumps between the different voices and doesn't just play an already existing melody in a middle voice - it combines the different middle voices and creates a new melody out of them. So, this goes a bit further than just bringing attention to an already existing middle voice.
There is a clear accompaniment and main melody in this piece. The accompaniment is still written "melodically" (i.e., the movement in the middle voices is important) - and the main melody also sometimes implies multiple voices - and there's definitely a voice leading idea behind it all. But this way of combining notes from different voices into a new voice is not just playing what Chopin wrote - it's creating a completely new melody.
It's kind of like if I just wrote a chordal accompaniment with logical voice leading, and then someone else decided to highlight a melody that jumped from one voice to another all the time. I didn't create that melody intentionally - I just created a progression that follows logical voice leading, and someone else took the time to combine those voices in an interesting way.
@@MaggaraMarine I mean, I’m aware that these suspensions are not in the text and that Chopin could have easily written them if he wanted to. You’re basically arguing that they’re not literally written, but that’s a given. My point is that Chopin was the kind of composer who paid attention to and valued these kinds of things, and in the process of handwriting these notes he probably considered their sequence and relationship. Regardless of whether they are emphasized like this, they are there to be heard. Yes the structure is a clear melody and accompaniment, but it’s not strict 2-part counterpoint, so the inclusion (or at least the consideration) of a third voice is not really a remarkable departure. The Ballades for example are packed with these sorts of fleeting countermelodies, almost always in the context of similar melody+comp textures. Either way, this interpretation is great and it works, which is why so many performers do it. Alice Sara Ott has one of the best recordings of the Waltz cycle and she also does this.
Those performances made much more interesting the music, and make every performance unique. Something that academics would reject but performer like him give us the pleasure to rediscover same beautiful music again and again from different perspective
it almost sounds like a completely different piece. he's incredible
ワルツを踊る、ダンスの相手が変わっていく。足のステップが変化したのが見えるような気がする、素晴らしい演奏です。
Not only marvelous musical insight and execution, but also excellent score highlighting! Fine art in service of fine art.
Keep the Katsaris uploads up 🔥🔥🔥
beautiful
This is absolutely insane. Beautiful voicing!!
Cyprien Katsaris is a true legend and needs greater recognition.
Actually, there's a Rachmaninov recording where he brings up that middle melody voice (although not as emphazised as Katsaris). To be honest, I think Katsaris is going too far here. I prefer Rach's recording, although no one can deny how much finger independency you need to voicing as Katsaris
P.S: Chopin was well aware of this inner melodies
I agree, Rach did it beautifully, and just the right degree to keep it in the boundaries of good taste. Katsaris rendition, while still very well executed, seems to be all about this “hidden melody”. In my opinion, it’s a much more challenging task to find the right phrasing for the actual theme, that Chopin wrote.
Most people miss the inner melody(s). I always liked to play it subdued the 1st time, more the 2nd, and fully there by the end. This performance is a little much for me, but still nice to hear an alternate way, showing the talent of Chopin and the wonderful things in his music.
I also think he's going too far. This just sounds to me like he is demonstrating the inner voice in a didactic way, rather than just playing the piece.
There is no going too far.
This is wonderful!
Thank you. Its so good. Makes me cry ❤️❤️❤️
These titles are getting unhinged man
Katsaris is one of my favourite pianists of all times for performances like this, he looks into the music itself to depth so great that he likely understands what makes the piece work more than the composer did when they wrote it. For those who haven’t heard it, his recordings of the second movement of Liszt/Beethoven symphony 5 transcription and the entire 7th symphony transcription are in my opinion some of the greatest piano recordings ever done!
He’s terrific, his interpretation is remarkable, but I don’t know how we can be so certain Chopin didn’t hear or intend those lines
That's genius
Beautiful. Simply beautiful!
Plot twist: Chopin not only hear the melody but also predict this video.
Chopin is a master of voice leading and burying textures and hidden melodies. i often want to change a note here or there and then remind myself of his utter disdain of other's performance of his music: while he himself 'never played a piece the same way twice' live, he was adamant that his markings were strictly observed. he was a perfectionist you see and labored over every measure. he even goes as far in his music to include a lot of fingering most would not consider necessary; he knew the difference in sound produced by each finger.
i have a new favorite performer.
Incredible.
Katsaris is one of the best Chopin interpreter.
That you can play Chopin with different voicing and find entirely new melodies is what makes me love Chopin. He was a genius
I’ve re-watched this so many times already I just love it 😂 I even had a dream about Katsaris playing this last night hahaha. His reinvention is amazing. Playing this in a concert program soon and might have to steal some of his ideas…
This is absolutely amazingg especially when the melody goes to the left hand
Gorgeous
Katsaris is such an inventive, talented performer
That shows how naturally brilliant Chopin was that even unintentionally there's beautiful musicality lol
Oh, but it was intentional.
His face be like "Hold on lemme cook 🔥🔥"
even without looking at the sheet music i could hear the marked melody very clearly! that’s so difficult so 👏👏👏
always fascinating to hear interpretations that emphasize the lower voice
Interesting to note how other pianists like Rachmaninoff and Ott also create a new countermelody from 0:12-0:15 and 0:17-0:19. The other voicings, however, are Katsaris doing what Katsaris does best.
@Martin Baldwin-Edwards I dont wanna mislead in anyform but i can only think of Alice Sara Ott when refering to the last name Ott
im pretty sure even Rubinstein does it, the countermelody itself isn't new, the others definitely are
Classical music is AMAZING!
wow! ive played this piece tons and never noticed this
Bravo!
Over the years I'm convinced i've found many many similiar hidden themes or melodies which i thought were known and easily recognizable just by everyone... From now on i will check twice.
Chopin's waltzes are underrated. In my opinion, his greatest melodic genius is found there.
Would you care to explain how they are underrated? Do you mean they are never performed in public? No recordings exist?
@@pawelpap9 of course I don't mean those things because they aren't true. Why would you say that?
Dude in front had that BRAVO locked and loaded
This is incredible.. incredible artist
So great he added some interpretation and his artistry of creating a line of melody out of the harmony to add variety to this repeating passage true artist!! I do a version of this voicing but not to that extent
Why are people pissed in the comments? Let's just enjoy the music, man
They don’t understand what is going on here. Musical ignorance
LMAO go somewhere else then! (Just a friendly suggestion and not suppression of speech 🙄) This is your second day commenting on a video that you say you did not enjoy.
@Martin Baldwin-Edwards It's an essay, not a speech. I don't care for you or your manners. You're still popping up in comments that have nothing to do with you. My friendly advice is that if you think you have better ways to spend your time, you're free to do so and should do so. Otherwise, you're essentially admitting to pissing yourself off on purpose at this point.
@Martin Baldwin-Edwards When did I claim that right? Or do you just lack basic reading comprehension?
@Martin Baldwin-Edwards I'm challenging you. When did I claim the right to determine what is or what is not to do with you in this comment thread?
Very inspiring and unique !
Brilliant!
My jaw dropped he is so good
This reminds me of Bach’s contrapuntal music…. Thank you for the video, so beautiful.
That was masterful
One of the best interpretations I have heard.
That's insane. At first I was listening thinking "Pfft, I do that voicing!" for the last RH note of each bar, but all the rest of it is just so effortlessly brilliant. The Eb at 0:54 is exceptional. I've never paid attention to it.
This is an unorthordox but really intriguing and exquisite interpretation ! How can he stress on these note ??
This is mind blowing
I always play the middle section of the waltz like this. Sublime inner voices. I love to compose like that as well.
On one hand, it's really cool that these melodies are hidden in there, however I like it better when Horowitz underlines these kind of melodies, because he somehow magically makes it possible that one understands all of the melodies at once. This I can not hear with Katsaris as well. It seems these melodies are clashing at each other.
He's still an incredible pianist of course, and my goal is not to rank anyone, I just wanted to share my fascination of Horowitz.
I agree.
It is amazing wht he does here, but i agree with you.
you may like Katsaris' Rach op 23 no 5 more though, the melodies aren't as clashing there, in fact the voicing is quite beautiful
I think he's intentionally trying to do something different here, which is why it sounds a bit weird. I definitely think it's interesting, but it only sounds cool because we've all heard this piece a hundred times. If this wasn't such an overplayed piece, I think a more common reaction would simply be "what a weird interpretation choice". But since we have the "normal" version in our ears so well, a more experimental interpretation is cool.
He isn't just highlighting a middle voice that already exists in the piece - he's jumping between different voices and creates a new melody out of them. It takes a lot of creativity, and I think this is definitely an interesting idea. But it's almost "recomposing" the whole piece. It is adding a totally new element to it, and not just bringing attention to an already existing middle voice.
In other words, would I listen to this as the "main version" of this piece? No. It's a fun version, but it intentionally ignores the main melody, and makes the piece sound a bit too different (and again, he goes way further than just highlighting an interesting middle voice - he creates a new melody by combining notes from the different middle voices). Of course he's being playful here. He knows that the audience knows the "normal" version, so he can experiment with it.
きれいなワルツ。
最もショパンらしいショパン。
左手の親指がアクセントですね。
Bravo, indeed.
Fantastic!!!
But well.... Chopin, the master of subtlety and counterpoint of his day, composed the entire thing. The man that said that a piece can be played differently every day. He definitely knew that melody! :D
That’s a face of a pianist who knows what he is doing 0:39
AHHH I DIDNT EVEN NOTICE!!! THIS IS SO BEAUTIFUL ❤
AND IM PLAYING IT RIGHT NOW LOL
Coolest version of this I have ever heard. Something special about this performance.
This is such an interesting voicing! I really like it
LMAO. Rachmaninoff played it like this. I was looking for a more modern recording in the same style. Thank you :)
Uuauuuuu q magia descubrir esa melodía escondida en el bajo
Ottima esecuzione, bella la nuova melodia scoperta!
Extraordinary!
he's one my favorist pianist and will forever be. He has tremendous knowledge of Liszt and Chopin music and also from their students, he does not do anything without thinking first about it. Yet he's also a great improvisor and so plays with a lot of intuition too. I understand his "intellectual" playing might not please everybody, but actually i don't care lol (and don't forget Horowitz used to do the exact same thing about inner voices).
And finally don't forget he's the first (and only one?) who played the Flight of the Bumblebee version that Cziffra specially wrote for him (which is different and more difficult than the usual version played by Yuya Wang etc...). You may find it on youtube when he played it in premiere in front of Cziffra himself on national TV.
Ahh yes Cyprien Katsaris, the greatest pianist alive today. What a rendition. Legendary
sokolov?
trifonov?
I love the way he does justice to the melodies bass line, too often forgot. Listen to the his performance of Schumann's Kinderszenen.
I wasn't playing piano, but your channel is very intellectual. Definitely subscribed. Definitely will be interested in studying more about this art direction 🐻❄️
I was like, yeah uh ok... until 0:24. Never heard anyone play it like that!
Yeah same. The first section I was like 'ehhh, I've heard this voicing before'; but he just kept going.
Worth checking out his Chopin third sonata where he does his inner voicing magic. He also does it in his recording of D960, magical too.
i probably love his rach op 23 no 5 most tho in terms of voicing
Katsaris does inner voicing magic almost everywhere
My favorite is his ending of the schumann fantasy
both you and Katsaris are amazing that you noticed his interpretation and that he noticed what Chopin didn't realize. Always thought Katssris is understimated, and you just proved it again, he really is.
Spooooky, like conjuring a brand new melody out of thin air- it’s ghastly and delightful and raises the hair on the back of my neck!!!