I don’t really think PSA is so much a tougher grader as an inaccurate grader. I’d assume collectors will grow tired of ex-nm cards being returned as VG+ and will turn to more competent companies. If people continue to reward incompetence with more submissions… well they will never get better. The PSA insiders ( of course they play favorites) will continue to get plush grades while everyone else gets hammered. They have to be laughing
What has to change there then that hasn't historically yet - is collectors with large PC's already full of PSA being willing to jump ship. I know Mike M. won't, and I get it and why. But you are right, this will not change things. At what point do those invested in PSA no longer tolerate the inconsistency?
giving fair grade's would effect the value of there personal collections and there friends. pop counts can only keep getting higher so they have to manipulate the market.
A couple of clues prevent me from siding with your assessment that PSA grades too harshly. 1. You sent them multiple trimmed cards. 2. You assume a PSA 3 must have crease issues, which is incorrect. I assume you are sending in cards using the eyeball test without measuring the cards or reviewing PSA grade definitions. Many of the cards you showed had bad centering issues. Are you also looking at the registration, print quality, the gloss, off-whiteness, surface scratches? You didn't show the backs of the cards. What tools do you use to assess these things?
Why do people continue to send cards to grading companies and pay for THEIR OPINIONS......knowing that it's all SUBJECTIVE....and then BITCH AND MOAN at the grades they get!!!!
If grading companies didn't exist, the price of high end cards would crash... The old Mint/Nr-Mint/Excellent/Good that the 90s and earlier had made it the wild wild west. The price difference between an 8, 9 or 10 is staggering. And yes, there have been scandals involving grading. I don't buy graded cards, to me a PSA of 5 does the same job to me as a PSA 10 would.
I’m like you Mike. My entire collection is in PSA slabs so I’m not about to switch now BUT the fact that PSA knows that guys like you and me feel this way means they will not change the way they operate. The only way they change their practices is if they see a reduction of submissions. If you, me and others like us decide we’ve had enough, then and only then will they change. They got us and they know it. There’s a lot more guys like us who have spent a ton of money with them and because we want consistency in our slabs won’t ever change. Hence, we live with it.
I also only collect PSA slabs too, but the grade is irrelevant to me. I buy 9’s that look like 10’s, I buy 8’s that look like 9’s when it comes to modern cards. For vintage, I really buy the card and not the grade. I’ve seen PSA 3’s look better then 5’s. Now if you make a living buying raw, getting them graded and selling, then that’s another story. But most of us are collectors, so the grade is just a number as the card is what matters.
Not only that but I'm a huge set registry participant. They jacked up prices so high it makes it prohibitively expensive to get commons graded. But where are you going to go if you're a set registry participant. I used to talk to Joe Orlando all the time on email it was a better company when he ran it. Now they're just gouging people. And with their growth they probably hired a bunch of shity graders. I interviewed over there for 3 Days grading cards in Newport Beach in their dungeon it's a difficult job.
Yes, PSA has been brutal on vintage. I recently cracked out three PSA 9 1972 Seaver's #445 for regrade. Thought one at least had a chance at a 10. One came back 7 and two 8's. Also cracked a nifty recent graded 8.5 SGC 1969 Nolan Ryan. Thought it had a chance at a PSA 8 or 9, came back a 5. Took 4 months to get back. I've got other recent vintage PSA crack outs I could tell you about but I just want to cry. Also three other vintage came back damaged. no kidding here. I'm going with all vintage to SGC. Not sure what's going on there at PSA but its bizarre.
Isn't this the scam/in a fun way...now a PSA 7 is another company's 10, making PSA even more exclusive, like the rich man's art-exhibit vs. the guy in the village with free beer and no admission.
Hey Mike, the question is (and nobody talks about), how much involvement is the Genamint technology playing in to the grading process of vintage cards? Would love to see someone do a deeper dive in this. Just a theory, but I can’t help but wonder if this technology (that PSA acquired/owns) is spotting “too many” flaws on vintage. If a computer is scrutinizing and analyzing a vintage card, flaws can be found on many 9’s and 10’s - let’s face it, vintage cards aren’t made with the same degree of perfection that newer/modern cards are. This is also why I theorize that PSA has different grading service levels based on how old or new the cards are, as I suspect the technology cannot be used the same way for older vs newer cards. It’s all theories and such, but worth a consideration..
My observation of PSA is that when they started getting hammered with submissions they started hiring trainees to help out, so you may have a lot of inexperienced graders.
Grading is like the Wild West right now with all the new employees. Much of it depends on the day and the grader you get. Some nice cards, my favorites are the MacGregor cards. Sent you an email. I like the min-sized Oliva too.
Idk, I think the grades for the most part seemed pretty fair. If you had found these cards in these grades at a show and had the chance to buy them I think you'd be happy to get them. I have noticed that the paper stock on 77 especially is like toilet paper. It is deceptively difficult to grade and keep nice. I have looked at several singles from 77 Topps sets I have had in hopes to grade them but decided not to each time because the card stock is just soft and damages so easily.
You are right Brian. After the video as I looked at the cards more, the grades were more fair than I originally thought. Some were better than the grade they assigned but it wasn't really that bad.
totally agree...we can really only see the centering when it comes to these reveal videos, and the centering alone was more than enough to knock the majority of these cards down to a 6 or 7, and then add in any other issues that exist, 5's and 6's seem quite fair...
I'm told that PSA has so much higher value than SGC that you could sell everything, buy them back in SGC slabs, and still have money leftover to for a basement excavation.
I wouldn't necessarily agree that PSA grading right now is tougher but they are without question way more inconsistent, and frankly they have been since the pandemic/ great reopening. That's why it's always frustrating when I see people who don't submit and grade cards make banal comments about collectors, flippers, dealers, whatever who have made these observations and share their experience. I just want more see more consistency in their grading standards from vintage to ultra modern. Enjoyed the video Mike. Despite some of the grades, the cards look very nice slabbed.
I can completely understand wanting to have your collection consistent with one grading company. I suppose I didn't have a plan when I started collecting but I have been partial to SGC these days. 🐧🐧🐧
I’ve graded about 2,000 cards with PSA in the past 3 years. I’ve had to re-SUB some egregious ones, for example a perfect 2012 Prizm Tom Brady that was a 9 the first time, gem 10 after its 2nd trip to SoCal. Most modern/ultra modern is working pretty well at PSA, BUT…about 9-12 months ago I stopped sending vintage to PSA. I grade less vintage, many are sitting raw in boxes, some I send to SGC where I feel I get accurately graded cards 90% of the time. PSA cards I thought would get a 6, perhaps a 7 on a good day were coming back as 3’s. A 1968 Topps Standup Joe Namath I was sure would be a 7, and hoped even for an 8 came back as a 5. Just can’t send them these cards anymore.
those 1977 world series cards are really off-centered, so PSA 5's seem accurate to me..many of those cards are really off-centered, so when you add in any soft corners and edges, plus surface issues, it is no wonder most cards were 4's 5's and 6's...many of the cards present nicely, so not the end of the world, but it is very hard to get 9's on older cards even if you took them directly out of a pack today...
Based on what I saw I’m surprised you submitted all of those off centered cards and expected high grades. If you missed that you probably missed other obvious flaws.
PSA and SGC live in their own reality. My last order took six months with PSA. SGC slabs and labels suck, so would not care if if takes a year with PSA, I would never send to SGC. PSA lies. Their grading HAS changed. I resubmitted a 75 Brett that was broken out of a PSA 8 slab back in 2000 and resubmitted a couple years ago, it came back a 6. I will never accept Jim Kaat is in the HOF. HOF has basically become meaningless.
"Harsh" is a good word.......and yet you folks pay for this abuse.........interesting. I have no respect for the "grading" companies. Biggest scam to hit collectibles ever.....
Nice cards! Just by the quick look you gave us, on quite a few, I think you got hosed 1 or 2 grades. They definitely are inconsistent with other vintage cards I’ve seen graded by PSA lately
Nice video and I agree the grading of vintage is harsh with PSA. My bigger complaint is I think they grade the "Super Stars" harder. Mantle, Jordan, Brady and players like that seem to get the tougher grades. I sometimes use SGC when I want to turn sales around quickly but I use PSA for my PC.
As someone who has not sent cards in to get graded previously (though have bought several both PSA and SGC), this is very enlightening. I am gradually opening a '71 vending box from the Frisch vault and eventually planned to send a fair amount of these off for grading. I was already leaning SGC because of the look of the cards in holder, but seeing this is pushing me even further in that direction. Thanks for all your posts Mike, and I have especially loved listening your podcast since I found it about a year ago. I really loved the '48 vs. '49 Leaf talks as well as going through the current Bowman sets. You were a big inspiration for me to decide to do the '71 vending break over UA-cam and hopefully do other show and tell things. Love vintage cards and collecting what I enjoy!!!
Man, tough break Mike. I didn’t believe it at first but the more I see and experience myself these days, the more I’m a believer in PSA pop controlling cards. I look very closely at everything I submit but get back nothing but 9’s these days 🤷♂️
Great minds think alike Mike. In the past few months, I’ve bought the same late ‘70’s “leaders” cards you showed & having seen your grades, I may hold off grading them now 😆
Yea that’s a bummer Mike, PSA has you by the baseballs! I’m lucky I started with sgc, I’m the same way, I want everything in the same slab. Thanks for the content!
OH Mike this wrong video for me to watch today. I just mailed off 57 pre 1970 vintage cards to PSA. Sorry they were so harsh on your grades. I hope that grader doesn't get mine. On a bright note, as always I enjoy your videos and continue to love vintage more and more. No matter what PSA says. Hehe.
The grades and inconsistency has to be so frustrating, but as a set builder and completionist by nature I understand you’ve come way too far to turn back now. The sticking by your team analogy about sums it up. Grades aside, those are a bunch of great additions to your 4 decades set. Would be interested to see an update video on your progress, especially since chasing cardboard started. Thanks for sharing Mike!
I appreciate your videos but why the hell are all card collectors videos 20 minutes longer than they need to be? Let's learn to do a little bit of consolidation and video editing . But props your content
I've gotten some cards back from Psa that were total head scratchers. They will really low ball your cards. I only use Csg and Sgc for vintage. The cards are always within a point or half a point of what I'd expect expect. Not to mention the slabs are nicer and better looking.
Vintage is getting hit hard by Genamint technology detecting tiny one-sided wrinkles and surface imperfections. Stuff we can’t always see with our loupes and magnifying lamps.
Why would you get any of those cards graded in the first place? If it’s for your PC then fine I guess but for someone who looks at as many cards as you do, both graded and ungraded, your expectations might have been out of whack.
I'm speculating they're using magnification equipment that reveal flaws unseen by the naked eye. That may be why you thought they looked like they should grade higher. Having said that, there is no doubt an element of judgement involved so based on the time of day, experience level of grader, you will inevitably see inconsistencies. I know they use templates for measuring centering which again is hard to compare to surface appeal or how centering registers at a glance. Corners are another area where it's impossible to detect minor flaws without the assistance of devices. I've researched grading methodologies and it appears to be part art and part science. Nice cards though no matter what the grades came back as.
Grading should not be subjective, we need a common guide to grading...we have to have it. I feel they grade vintage like the card is ultra modern. I would hope they have graders that grade older cards knowing how a card looks. This is why I don't like grading, it's based on a person's opinion and we know how that goes for everything else in life. 😉
Nov 9th 32 card vintage order still waiting. They are so slow on vintage. They may have sent your cards to a home grader and they damaged them. PSA doesn’t really like to talk about their home graders for obvious reasons
Funny how when we want to back a brand we will make excuses or claim it’s not too bad and then when another company like Beckett does the same thing they are evil. This hobby is so clueless Be a leader and if anything , intentionally use BGS to prove your not a brainless follower :) I like your channel , you and this was good just remember to be positive on all fronts or negative on all fronts. It’s like a mom who bails a kid out of jail and makes excuses for his/her behavior but then cast judgement on another kid for the same behaviors. It’s just human nature to have a broken mindset and that’s why being a leader will solve a lot of problems.
I just submitted some late 90s cards. Many came back 8s, some 9s, and few 10s. YES! I went through them fairly well, but didn't have my 40x loupe yet only about 15x. Centering, edges, corners. If you have ANY noticeable edge or corner wear, you're gonna be lucky to get an 8. Then, centering and surface could easily knock you down. Unless it's better than 55/45 centering or just for your PC. I wouldn't bother sending them in. You're already at a disadvantage and for sure not going to get a 10. Especially if there's nicer cards they can compare too.
@@BaseballCollector I'm not really familiar with Genamint. Is that measuring? What concerns me is how PSA unilaterally decides what condition is. You remember before PSA...if a card looked mint to the naked eye it was mint to collectors. Maybe NM to some. The cards you showed on the video would compare very favorably to cards PSA used to grade as 8's or higher just a few years ago. This feels like they are redefining the definition of conditions again.
Mike, I can relate to your disappointing grades from PSA. I’ve taken a double hit from PSA with grading of Armour coins. First of all while the cost for grading of most cards went down in price, the cost for grading coins and pins has increased by 50%. It costs $75 to grade a 1 1/2 inch plastic coin. It’s hard to justify that cost on a coin worth $20. To make matters worse the coin grades coming back are also disappointing. This is making it impossible to upgrade my sets in the registry.
I mean they have 20 yr Olds who haven't seem any cards besides pokemon cards grading everything. Paying them minimum wage. Of course their control on the pop reports
Great points Mike, I have been sharing the same lately with PSA vintage. I have been buying more then ever before graded because 4 to 6 range look so damn good. Flip side is, I have cards that I am hesitant on sending in. My PC cards, I am in absolutely no rush. The ones I will sell I am just gonna do smaller orders for now. Maybe 10 to 15 per. I am interested in the Hank Aaron, feel free to reply if it's available. Thanks
70s are tough, like the (black) 71s. The color prints right to the edge and so its too easy to nick those edges, thus hurting the grade. You can even nick an edge in placing the raw card in a penny saver holder. If anyone can manage to get a PSA 8 or better, that's an incredible task. Also, I noticed that many of the cards are not centered, albeit with sharp edges. I bet many of the cards graded 4 or 5 are ones with damaged edges with regards to the color being nicked off. Also NOTE. Regarding bending, and your comment at the 15:00 minute mark, about, "I don't think I sent a bent card," I want to do an experiment the next time I send in cards to PSA. Suggest you do this too. Say, for instance you send in 20 cards, I would get out a notebook and make notes for the condition of each card in detail regarding ANY BENDS, FOLDS, or NICKS regarding the edges. Draw a generic version of the card, front and back, and (as one would send in a diamond to have it's FLAWS, IMPERFECTIONS, BLEMISHES, and INCLUSIONS noted in a "Diamond Grading Chart," [See online for a photo] do the same with that card). One card per page in the notebook, with the sketch on top and the notes below. Why?? Because I also suspect that something was done on their end after sending in cards that did not have bends and nicks in them originally. So, to have the original card condition photographed and documented in your notebook, would be THE evidence you need to confirm that damage was done on the PSA end (or the card is as it is). And yes, take some quality, close up photos of the card, front and back, before you send it in. Spend some real time documenting the card. As an experiment that would go far into putting any doubt that you may have about damage. You're spending hundreds of dollars anyway, and a ton of time, so why not do a bit more on your end --- as a quality control?! Good luck.
I have a couple of graded PSA unopened returns . That I received January 2020 and a Beckett unopened retI got in December 2019.I have plans to do a couple of videos for each returns. Plus I'm a grader for SGC and I have graded nearly 16,000 cards already
Grading seems completely subjective. All graders should include a checklist of how they determined the grade for each and every card. They need to come out of the shadows.
There is another option besides starting over vs continuing to drink the PSA kool-aid, and that is having a collection that has both PSA and SGC slabs. My complete 1948 Bowman set is all SGC slabs, so I can understand the need to keep things "uniform", but my player runs have mixed slabs and I don't feel the need to make them all the same slab. In fact, my near complete Spahn run has PSA, SGC, CSG, and even one BVG slab. I guess its a matter of taste, but I prefer to collect the best version of each card I can find regardless of slab. And when I sub vintage, its only with SGC because they are the best grading company for vintage, and I refuse to pay any more money to be abused by PSA. But we're all different and our PC's are all different, and that's ok.
I also have Killebrew card of him hitting one out of the park three pictures in sequence 1962 ,A 1961 world series card great shape but not centered makes it only dallor amount
I'm building 54 Bowman and 60 Topps sets, and I can depend on a PSA 6 being a nice card, and prices, especially on on the 60's, confirm it. A couple comments on your cards. You say you'd rather have an 8 OC than a 6. As nice as vintage 6's are, I'll take the 6. Your cards are consistently OC. Remember - backs count - that RBI back is bad. A year ago most of your cards would be qualified OC. I bought two complete 81 Topps traded sets many years ago (most poorly centered, BTW) that were in binder pages. They looked beautiful - color, gloss, white borders... Every one has a dinged corner, however slight. Pages are a corner destroyer.
The ONLY way to make PSA more consistent and fair, is to stop sending them cards. SGA is at this moment the best all-around grading Company. So I will be sending everything to SGA and NOTHING to PSA. They (PSA) have lost their mojo!
No wonder !, PSA graders are always in a bad mood. They have to work in Newport BEACH. California. They probably live there also. On a BEACH ! . It is really tough living on a BEACH !
All your 'miscuts' looked well within 'non-miscut' spec on the front... was it the backs that were screwed up?... centering definitely cost you on a bunch of these... I think the thing that leaps out at me with this group as an aggregate is that the colors and edges look great but some of the corners and centering not as great... And as to PSA generally, they are maddeningly inconsistent: I've resubbed cards that were in this general area of grades(4-6) that came back 8&9... that just shouldn't happen... Agree with you that SGC is the best from all metrics(other than resale $)... half of my collection is SGC and I'm fine with that...
I have Minnie.Minoso but it is not centered. Bob Cerv .Jim Davenport now that's centered in has no bad corners it glossy,flate it a strate card Mel mcgaha Alrie Pearson,Bob Nieman. It centered I guess my problem is centered pitcher if it's not centered it drop a lot in value but other then that there in fine or above that witch still only make them low dollar on the market prices rely
Grades looked pretty fair to me for 2023 grades. Either you are going too fast, or not taking centering into account maybe? They (the reputable 2 for vintage) will kill you on centering anymore. 70's cards can also have weird surface stuff that you never know how they will treat. Sorry you were disappointed.
Hi Mike, thanks for the video. I enjoyed your explaining why you stick with PSA. But I think your comparison with your loyalty to the Rangers is a little off. I get sticking with a team. I've been a Phillies fan when they were terrible and when they're great. However, I don't lose anything by sticking with the Phillies. I always enjoy their games, win or lose. With collecting cards and grading, there are investment decisions that are simply business. If a collector cares about the card and not the specific grade, then why grade it? I believe that grading makes sense to maximize the value of the card for the purpose of selling, trading and investing. At least that's how I look at it. Of course, we all have a different way of collecting and the only person we have to please is ourselves.
Congrats on your collection but Dont tell me what to collect. I collect the Freak, Big Time Timmy Jim. The Freaky Franchise. Today seems like a good day to take my Gator to the my firing range. I got more Land then all your Subs i bet. Tim Lncecum was the best Texas Rangers pitcher since nolan ryan. LOL. lmao. had to do it.
Why would you feel like you have to start all over? Is it that horrible to have a mix of PSA and SGC in your collection? I initially thought like this but then realized the card is the same card regardless of the holder. And having to have everything uniform, for me, is not necessarily and unjustifiably expensive. SGC is a great call for vintage cards. And modern cards can now be in either holder and still look good.
They have had to hire too many new people in such a short time. As much as I love having a big card in a PSA slab, I don't trust sending them anything mid grade right now... And I'm sorry but the thing that bothers me the most is their bizarre holdering jobs on irregular size items. They are a giant company that clearly dominates the hobby and has been getting different stuff sent to them for 20+ years. They can't put stuff in a decent holder that actually looks like it belongs? Everytime I see it I get more and more frustrated. Ok sorry for my rant😂
It's pretty hard to tell if the grades were accurate or not because you don't show the coroner's up close and you don't show the back on most of the cards. Your 65 Eddie Mathews has a big gouge on the left border. I see a lot touched worn corners.
Psa is everyone's first choice, not me. To each their own but there is no way I will have them grade anything for me! I had a buddy send some cards in into psa and gave him a bad grade on several of them. Another buddy was sending in some of his into psa so he took 2 of the bad graded cards broke them open and sent them with the other buddy's cards and they came back 2 grades higher than they originally graded them at! To me that is ridiculous! They will never get my business! That's just my 2 cents!
My opinion....if psa is going to grade like shit and charge what they do, something needs to change. A simple explanation wouldn't take that long and would be beneficial for both sides
Great video. I’ve done several subs with PSA and find their grading to be very, very inconsistent. Pulling a 7 feels like 9 /10 in the vintage, pre 1970 era.
Than they should charge less for vintage, since they’re rendering the cards worthless with their ridiculous low grades. They have no intention of changing the pop reports on these cards imo.
Grading needs to graduate to the point where there is repeatability, transparency and the subjectiveness is eliminated. The only way we get there is electronic grading (like TAG) and I hope we get there sooner than later. We have to take the human out of the loop.
PSA's inconsistency with grading is become more apparent. I to have a decent collection of PSA holders, however, SGC is starting to become my go to. I sent them several cards that I thought were under graded and they fully agreed. I love the accurate and honest grading SGC provides and the turnaround.
I don’t really think PSA is so much a tougher grader as an inaccurate grader. I’d assume collectors will grow tired of ex-nm cards being returned as VG+ and will turn to more competent companies.
If people continue to reward incompetence with more submissions… well they will never get better. The PSA insiders ( of course they play favorites) will continue to get plush grades while everyone else gets hammered. They have to be laughing
What has to change there then that hasn't historically yet - is collectors with large PC's already full of PSA being willing to jump ship. I know Mike M. won't, and I get it and why. But you are right, this will not change things. At what point do those invested in PSA no longer tolerate the inconsistency?
giving fair grade's would effect the value of there personal collections and there friends. pop counts can only keep getting higher so they have to manipulate the market.
Amen. 😎
A couple of clues prevent me from siding with your assessment that PSA grades too harshly. 1. You sent them multiple trimmed cards. 2. You assume a PSA 3 must have crease issues, which is incorrect. I assume you are sending in cards using the eyeball test without measuring the cards or reviewing PSA grade definitions. Many of the cards you showed had bad centering issues. Are you also looking at the registration, print quality, the gloss, off-whiteness, surface scratches? You didn't show the backs of the cards. What tools do you use to assess these things?
1. Should be irrelevant. If they are grading a submitter and not the card, the system is flawed in it's most basic level.
Why do people continue to send cards to grading companies and pay for THEIR OPINIONS......knowing that it's all SUBJECTIVE....and then BITCH AND MOAN at the grades they get!!!!
If grading companies didn't exist, the price of high end cards would crash... The old Mint/Nr-Mint/Excellent/Good that the 90s and earlier had made it the wild wild west. The price difference between an 8, 9 or 10 is staggering. And yes, there have been scandals involving grading. I don't buy graded cards, to me a PSA of 5 does the same job to me as a PSA 10 would.
Centering, centering, centering.
I’m like you Mike. My entire collection is in PSA slabs so I’m not about to switch now BUT the fact that PSA knows that guys like you and me feel this way means they will not change the way they operate. The only way they change their practices is if they see a reduction of submissions. If you, me and others like us decide we’ve had enough, then and only then will they change. They got us and they know it. There’s a lot more guys like us who have spent a ton of money with them and because we want consistency in our slabs won’t ever change. Hence, we live with it.
I also only collect PSA slabs too, but the grade is irrelevant to me. I buy 9’s that look like 10’s, I buy 8’s that look like 9’s when it comes to modern cards. For vintage, I really buy the card and not the grade. I’ve seen PSA 3’s look better then 5’s.
Now if you make a living buying raw, getting them graded and selling, then that’s another story. But most of us are collectors, so the grade is just a number as the card is what matters.
@@chrisolivo6591 I am exactly like you. I have lots of PSA 5’s and 6’s that look amazing slabbed. Look at the money we save!
Although they sell for slightly less in vintage, I prefer SGC for accuracy, turnaround time and the way the black makes the cards pop.
ua-cam.com/video/ITVtA5Rwzqc/v-deo.html
Not only that but I'm a huge set registry participant. They jacked up prices so high it makes it prohibitively expensive to get commons graded. But where are you going to go if you're a set registry participant. I used to talk to Joe Orlando all the time on email it was a better company when he ran it. Now they're just gouging people. And with their growth they probably hired a bunch of shity graders. I interviewed over there for 3 Days grading cards in Newport Beach in their dungeon it's a difficult job.
Yes, PSA has been brutal on vintage. I recently cracked out three PSA 9 1972 Seaver's #445 for regrade. Thought one at least had a chance at a 10. One came back 7 and two 8's. Also cracked a nifty recent graded 8.5 SGC 1969 Nolan Ryan. Thought it had a chance at a PSA 8 or 9, came back a 5. Took 4 months to get back. I've got other recent vintage PSA crack outs I could tell you about but I just want to cry. Also three other vintage came back damaged. no kidding here.
I'm going with all vintage to SGC. Not sure what's going on there at PSA but its bizarre.
Isn't this the scam/in a fun way...now a PSA 7 is another company's 10, making PSA even more exclusive, like the rich man's art-exhibit vs. the guy in the village with free beer and no admission.
So you got f3cked by your own greed. /golf clap for you, stucky.
Sad when someone can’t leave an ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP. (PSA) 😔😣😖😫😭
Centering issues seem low grade
Hey Mike, the question is (and nobody talks about), how much involvement is the Genamint technology playing in to the grading process of vintage cards? Would love to see someone do a deeper dive in this. Just a theory, but I can’t help but wonder if this technology (that PSA acquired/owns) is spotting “too many” flaws on vintage. If a computer is scrutinizing and analyzing a vintage card, flaws can be found on many 9’s and 10’s - let’s face it, vintage cards aren’t made with the same degree of perfection that newer/modern cards are. This is also why I theorize that PSA has different grading service levels based on how old or new the cards are, as I suspect the technology cannot be used the same way for older vs newer cards. It’s all theories and such, but worth a consideration..
I agree with this. These old paper cards have surface wrinkles that we just can’t see like they do.
My observation of PSA is that when they started getting hammered with submissions they started hiring trainees to help out, so you may have a lot of inexperienced graders.
No doubt that is true.
Looks like centering was the big grade killed for most of the cards.
I agree.
….and another reason why grading is dumb. You liked the cards and now you can’t look at them the same way.
Grading is like the Wild West right now with all the new employees. Much of it depends on the day and the grader you get. Some nice cards, my favorites are the MacGregor cards. Sent you an email. I like the min-sized Oliva too.
Idk, I think the grades for the most part seemed pretty fair. If you had found these cards in these grades at a show and had the chance to buy them I think you'd be happy to get them.
I have noticed that the paper stock on 77 especially is like toilet paper. It is deceptively difficult to grade and keep nice. I have looked at several singles from 77 Topps sets I have had in hopes to grade them but decided not to each time because the card stock is just soft and damages so easily.
You are right Brian. After the video as I looked at the cards more, the grades were more fair than I originally thought. Some were better than the grade they assigned but it wasn't really that bad.
totally agree...we can really only see the centering when it comes to these reveal videos, and the centering alone was more than enough to knock the majority of these cards down to a 6 or 7, and then add in any other issues that exist, 5's and 6's seem quite fair...
The high to low centering is not as displeasing to the eye, but it's a deal breaker...
I'm told that PSA has so much higher value than SGC that you could sell everything, buy them back in SGC slabs, and still have money leftover to for a basement excavation.
I wouldn't necessarily agree that PSA grading right now is tougher but they are without question way more inconsistent, and frankly they have been since the pandemic/ great reopening. That's why it's always frustrating when I see people who don't submit and grade cards make banal comments about collectors, flippers, dealers, whatever who have made these observations and share their experience. I just want more see more consistency in their grading standards from vintage to ultra modern. Enjoyed the video Mike. Despite some of the grades, the cards look very nice slabbed.
I can completely understand wanting to have your collection consistent with one grading company. I suppose I didn't have a plan when I started collecting but I have been partial to SGC these days. 🐧🐧🐧
He should have sent them elsewhere like Beckett or something if he wanted higher gradings.
HTF is that Nolan Ryan/Tom Seaver card a PSA 5?? that card looks like its at least a 7.5. PSA is so inconsistent unlike SGC.
I just buy graded vintage only. There’s too many fakes, cut and creased cards that you can’t see online.
I’ve graded about 2,000 cards with PSA in the past 3 years. I’ve had to re-SUB some egregious ones, for example a perfect 2012 Prizm Tom Brady that was a 9 the first time, gem 10 after its 2nd trip to SoCal. Most modern/ultra modern is working pretty well at PSA, BUT…about 9-12 months ago I stopped sending vintage to PSA. I grade less vintage, many are sitting raw in boxes, some I send to SGC where I feel I get accurately graded cards 90% of the time. PSA cards I thought would get a 6, perhaps a 7 on a good day were coming back as 3’s. A 1968 Topps Standup Joe Namath I was sure would be a 7, and hoped even for an 8 came back as a 5. Just can’t send them these cards anymore.
those 1977 world series cards are really off-centered, so PSA 5's seem accurate to me..many of those cards are really off-centered, so when you add in any soft corners and edges, plus surface issues, it is no wonder most cards were 4's 5's and 6's...many of the cards present nicely, so not the end of the world, but it is very hard to get 9's on older cards even if you took them directly out of a pack today...
Grades look accurate, why would you pay $20 a card to grade when the card isn’t worth $5? Makes no sense.
Based on what I saw I’m surprised you submitted all of those off centered cards and expected high grades. If you missed that you probably missed other obvious flaws.
PSA and SGC live in their own reality. My last order took six months with PSA. SGC slabs and labels suck, so would not care if if takes a year with PSA, I would never send to SGC. PSA lies. Their grading HAS changed. I resubmitted a 75 Brett that was broken out of a PSA 8 slab back in 2000 and resubmitted a couple years ago, it came back a 6. I will never accept Jim Kaat is in the HOF. HOF has basically become meaningless.
"Harsh" is a good word.......and yet you folks pay for this abuse.........interesting. I have no respect for the "grading" companies. Biggest scam to hit collectibles ever.....
Nice cards! Just by the quick look you gave us, on quite a few, I think you got hosed 1 or 2 grades. They definitely are inconsistent with other vintage cards I’ve seen graded by PSA lately
I agree SGC is the best overall grading company!!
I agree.
Nice video and I agree the grading of vintage is harsh with PSA. My bigger complaint is I think they grade the "Super Stars" harder. Mantle, Jordan, Brady and players like that seem to get the tougher grades. I sometimes use SGC when I want to turn sales around quickly but I use PSA for my PC.
As someone who has not sent cards in to get graded previously (though have bought several both PSA and SGC), this is very enlightening. I am gradually opening a '71 vending box from the Frisch vault and eventually planned to send a fair amount of these off for grading. I was already leaning SGC because of the look of the cards in holder, but seeing this is pushing me even further in that direction. Thanks for all your posts Mike, and I have especially loved listening your podcast since I found it about a year ago. I really loved the '48 vs. '49 Leaf talks as well as going through the current Bowman sets. You were a big inspiration for me to decide to do the '71 vending break over UA-cam and hopefully do other show and tell things. Love vintage cards and collecting what I enjoy!!!
I stopped using PSA and have never been happier. What a ripoff operation they are... "The Emperor's Clothes" persists to this day.
Centering on most of those 5’s and 6’s were pretty bad.
You’re in an abusive relationship and refuse to leave. F loyalty. At some point the blame falls on the abused for not walking out the door.
Man, tough break Mike. I didn’t believe it at first but the more I see and experience myself these days, the more I’m a believer in PSA pop controlling cards. I look very closely at everything I submit but get back nothing but 9’s these days 🤷♂️
they don't want to effect the value of there own personal collections and there friends.
I would say sgc is tougher on vintage.
Again you don't have use psa. But you put in more orders.
Great minds think alike Mike. In the past few months, I’ve bought the same late ‘70’s “leaders” cards you showed & having seen your grades, I may hold off grading them now 😆
If SGC offered to crossover your entire collection into SGC slabs for free, would you do it?
Interesting question. I do not know. I would definitely think about it.
That'd be a no brainer for me. Better run company with employees in a far better state. SGC all the way.
Yea that’s a bummer Mike, PSA has you by the baseballs! I’m lucky I started with sgc, I’m the same way, I want everything in the same slab. Thanks for the content!
OH Mike this wrong video for me to watch today. I just mailed off 57 pre 1970 vintage cards to PSA. Sorry they were so harsh on your grades. I hope that grader doesn't get mine. On a bright note, as always I enjoy your videos and continue to love vintage more and more. No matter what PSA says. Hehe.
There are vintage cards out there in early PSA 7 holders that would probably grade a 4 today.
The grades and inconsistency has to be so frustrating, but as a set builder and completionist by nature I understand you’ve come way too far to turn back now. The sticking by your team analogy about sums it up. Grades aside, those are a bunch of great additions to your 4 decades set. Would be interested to see an update video on your progress, especially since chasing cardboard started. Thanks for sharing Mike!
I appreciate your videos but why the hell are all card collectors videos 20 minutes longer than they need to be? Let's learn to do a little bit of consolidation and video editing . But props your content
Short videos are for TikTok.
I've gotten some cards back from Psa that were total head scratchers. They will really low ball your cards. I only use Csg and Sgc for vintage. The cards are always within a point or half a point of what I'd expect expect. Not to mention the slabs are nicer and better looking.
Vintage is getting hit hard by Genamint technology detecting tiny one-sided wrinkles and surface imperfections. Stuff we can’t always see with our loupes and magnifying lamps.
That's a great point about Genamint.
Why would you get any of those cards graded in the first place? If it’s for your PC then fine I guess but for someone who looks at as many cards as you do, both graded and ungraded, your expectations might have been out of whack.
All PC cards
I'm speculating they're using magnification equipment that reveal flaws unseen by the naked eye. That may be why you thought they looked like they should grade higher. Having said that, there is no doubt an element of judgement involved so based on the time of day, experience level of grader, you will inevitably see inconsistencies. I know they use templates for measuring centering which again is hard to compare to surface appeal or how centering registers at a glance. Corners are another area where it's impossible to detect minor flaws without the assistance of devices. I've researched grading methodologies and it appears to be part art and part science. Nice cards though no matter what the grades came back as.
Well sorry I'm not sure what but I'm getting nothing out of this sorry
Sorry you feel that way
On the vintage it’s the centering. Some of those cards had problems.
They did for sure
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Mike. Most of my major cards are PSA and on the registry. SGC grading is more consistent and accurate than PSA.
It sucks you even felt like you needed to explain yourself. You do you.
It's all good. I don't have a problem explaining myself.
I always marked my cards secretly. Knowing that they are mine. I will check my
That's going to ruin their value.
Grading should not be subjective, we need a common guide to grading...we have to have it. I feel they grade vintage like the card is ultra modern. I would hope they have graders that grade older cards knowing how a card looks. This is why I don't like grading, it's based on a person's opinion and we know how that goes for everything else in life. 😉
Nov 9th 32 card vintage order still waiting. They are so slow on vintage. They may have sent your cards to a home grader and they damaged them. PSA doesn’t really like to talk about their home graders for obvious reasons
Funny how when we want to back a brand we will make excuses or claim it’s not too bad and then when another company like Beckett does the same thing they are evil. This hobby is so clueless
Be a leader and if anything , intentionally use BGS to prove your not a brainless follower :)
I like your channel , you and this was good just remember to be positive on all fronts or negative on all fronts. It’s like a mom who bails a kid out of jail and makes excuses for his/her behavior but then cast judgement on another kid for the same behaviors. It’s just human nature to have a broken mindset and that’s why being a leader will solve a lot of problems.
I just submitted some late 90s cards. Many came back 8s, some 9s, and few 10s. YES! I went through them fairly well, but didn't have my 40x loupe yet only about 15x. Centering, edges, corners. If you have ANY noticeable edge or corner wear, you're gonna be lucky to get an 8. Then, centering and surface could easily knock you down. Unless it's better than 55/45 centering or just for your PC. I wouldn't bother sending them in. You're already at a disadvantage and for sure not going to get a 10. Especially if there's nicer cards they can compare too.
PSA seems to be redefining what NM, EX and VG stand for.
No doubt Keith. I am curious if you think they are incorporating Genamint more into their grading process and finding more flaws than before???
@@BaseballCollector I'm not really familiar with Genamint. Is that measuring?
What concerns me is how PSA unilaterally decides what condition is. You remember before PSA...if a card looked mint to the naked eye it was mint to collectors. Maybe NM to some. The cards you showed on the video would compare very favorably to cards PSA used to grade as 8's or higher just a few years ago. This feels like they are redefining the definition of conditions again.
They still look pretty in slabs...but man, I've got a lot worse looking slabbed 4s and 5s. Weird.
Mike, I can relate to your disappointing grades from PSA. I’ve taken a double hit from PSA with grading of Armour coins. First of all while the cost for grading of most cards went down in price, the cost for grading coins and pins has increased by 50%. It costs $75 to grade a 1 1/2 inch plastic coin. It’s hard to justify that cost on a coin worth $20. To make matters worse the coin grades coming back are also disappointing. This is making it impossible to upgrade my sets in the registry.
I mean they have 20 yr Olds who haven't seem any cards besides pokemon cards grading everything. Paying them minimum wage. Of course their control on the pop reports
Great points Mike, I have been sharing the same lately with PSA vintage. I have been buying more then ever before graded because 4 to 6 range look so damn good. Flip side is, I have cards that I am hesitant on sending in. My PC cards, I am in absolutely no rush. The ones I will sell I am just gonna do smaller orders for now. Maybe 10 to 15 per.
I am interested in the Hank Aaron, feel free to reply if it's available. Thanks
The title of this video makes me nervous since I just sent a Rickey Henderson rookie to PSA yesterday.😅
Good luck
@@BaseballCollector thank you. It looks like I need it!
I have card from 1962 card grade 10 to 8 uncirculated baseball cards Jim Gintile250 Felipe Alou
70s are tough, like the (black) 71s. The color prints right to the edge and so its too easy to nick those edges, thus hurting the grade. You can even nick an edge in placing the raw card in a penny saver holder. If anyone can manage to get a PSA 8 or better, that's an incredible task. Also, I noticed that many of the cards are not centered, albeit with sharp edges. I bet many of the cards graded 4 or 5 are ones with damaged edges with regards to the color being nicked off. Also NOTE. Regarding bending, and your comment at the 15:00 minute mark, about, "I don't think I sent a bent card," I want to do an experiment the next time I send in cards to PSA. Suggest you do this too. Say, for instance you send in 20 cards, I would get out a notebook and make notes for the condition of each card in detail regarding ANY BENDS, FOLDS, or NICKS regarding the edges. Draw a generic version of the card, front and back, and (as one would send in a diamond to have it's FLAWS, IMPERFECTIONS, BLEMISHES, and INCLUSIONS noted in a "Diamond Grading Chart," [See online for a photo] do the same with that card). One card per page in the notebook, with the sketch on top and the notes below. Why?? Because I also suspect that something was done on their end after sending in cards that did not have bends and nicks in them originally. So, to have the original card condition photographed and documented in your notebook, would be THE evidence you need to confirm that damage was done on the PSA end (or the card is as it is). And yes, take some quality, close up photos of the card, front and back, before you send it in. Spend some real time documenting the card. As an experiment that would go far into putting any doubt that you may have about damage. You're spending hundreds of dollars anyway, and a ton of time, so why not do a bit more on your end --- as a quality control?! Good luck.
That’s why i believe that the future of grading will be computer AI, my 2 cents
I have a couple of graded PSA unopened returns . That I received January 2020 and a Beckett unopened retI got in December 2019.I have plans to do a couple of videos for each returns. Plus I'm a grader for SGC and I have graded nearly 16,000 cards already
I just saw a guy who did a PSA reveal. He resubmitted a 6 & 7 and got back a 8 & 9. Thats insane.
cognitive dissonance on parade
Well we can't all be brilliant like you
Grading seems completely subjective. All graders should include a checklist of how they determined the grade for each and every card. They need to come out of the shadows.
There is another option besides starting over vs continuing to drink the PSA kool-aid, and that is having a collection that has both PSA and SGC slabs. My complete 1948 Bowman set is all SGC slabs, so I can understand the need to keep things "uniform", but my player runs have mixed slabs and I don't feel the need to make them all the same slab. In fact, my near complete Spahn run has PSA, SGC, CSG, and even one BVG slab. I guess its a matter of taste, but I prefer to collect the best version of each card I can find regardless of slab. And when I sub vintage, its only with SGC because they are the best grading company for vintage, and I refuse to pay any more money to be abused by PSA. But we're all different and our PC's are all different, and that's ok.
I also have Killebrew card of him hitting one out of the park three pictures in sequence 1962 ,A 1961 world series card great shape but not centered makes it only dallor amount
I'm building 54 Bowman and 60 Topps sets, and I can depend on a PSA 6 being a nice card, and prices, especially on on the 60's, confirm it. A couple comments on your cards. You say you'd rather have an 8 OC than a 6. As nice as vintage 6's are, I'll take the 6. Your cards are consistently OC. Remember - backs count - that RBI back is bad. A year ago most of your cards would be qualified OC. I bought two complete 81 Topps traded sets many years ago (most poorly centered, BTW) that were in binder pages. They looked beautiful - color, gloss, white borders... Every one has a dinged corner, however slight. Pages are a corner destroyer.
The ONLY way to make PSA more consistent and fair, is to stop sending them cards. SGA is at this moment the best all-around grading Company. So I will be sending everything to SGA and NOTHING to PSA. They (PSA) have lost their mojo!
No wonder !, PSA graders are always in a bad mood. They have to work in Newport BEACH. California. They probably live there also. On a BEACH !
. It is really tough living on a BEACH !
They won't you to keep cracking and resubmit your cards it's bullshit. I
Nice slabs. New sub here from Adam's shoutout. Nice video
All your 'miscuts' looked well within 'non-miscut' spec on the front... was it the backs that were screwed up?... centering definitely cost you on a bunch of these... I think the thing that leaps out at me with this group as an aggregate is that the colors and edges look great but some of the corners and centering not as great... And as to PSA generally, they are maddeningly inconsistent: I've resubbed cards that were in this general area of grades(4-6) that came back 8&9... that just shouldn't happen... Agree with you that SGC is the best from all metrics(other than resale $)... half of my collection is SGC and I'm fine with that...
I have Minnie.Minoso but it is not centered. Bob Cerv .Jim Davenport now that's centered in has no bad corners it glossy,flate it a strate card Mel mcgaha Alrie Pearson,Bob Nieman.
It centered I guess my problem is centered pitcher if it's not centered it drop a lot in value but other then that there in fine or above that witch still only make them low dollar on the market prices rely
I use PSA 1980 and above and SGC anything earlier than 1980.
Grades looked pretty fair to me for 2023 grades. Either you are going too fast, or not taking centering into account maybe? They (the reputable 2 for vintage) will kill you on centering anymore. 70's cards can also have weird surface stuff that you never know how they will treat. Sorry you were disappointed.
Hi Mike, thanks for the video. I enjoyed your explaining why you stick with PSA. But I think your comparison with your loyalty to the Rangers is a little off. I get sticking with a team. I've been a Phillies fan when they were terrible and when they're great. However, I don't lose anything by sticking with the Phillies. I always enjoy their games, win or lose. With collecting cards and grading, there are investment decisions that are simply business. If a collector cares about the card and not the specific grade, then why grade it? I believe that grading makes sense to maximize the value of the card for the purpose of selling, trading and investing. At least that's how I look at it. Of course, we all have a different way of collecting and the only person we have to please is ourselves.
Congrats on your collection but Dont tell me what to collect. I collect the Freak, Big Time Timmy Jim. The Freaky Franchise. Today seems like a good day to take my Gator to the my firing range. I got more Land then all your Subs i bet. Tim Lncecum was the best Texas Rangers pitcher since nolan ryan. LOL. lmao. had to do it.
Why would you feel like you have to start all over? Is it that horrible to have a mix of PSA and SGC in your collection? I initially thought like this but then realized the card is the same card regardless of the holder. And having to have everything uniform, for me, is not necessarily and unjustifiably expensive. SGC is a great call for vintage cards. And modern cards can now be in either holder and still look good.
Unsure where to ask this question, seems there are many experts on this thread.. Are opee chee cards from the 70s as valuable as Topps
They have had to hire too many new people in such a short time. As much as I love having a big card in a PSA slab, I don't trust sending them anything mid grade right now... And I'm sorry but the thing that bothers me the most is their bizarre holdering jobs on irregular size items. They are a giant company that clearly dominates the hobby and has been getting different stuff sent to them for 20+ years. They can't put stuff in a decent holder that actually looks like it belongs? Everytime I see it I get more and more frustrated. Ok sorry for my rant😂
It's pretty hard to tell if the grades were accurate or not because you don't show the coroner's up close and you don't show the back on most of the cards. Your 65 Eddie Mathews has a big gouge on the left border. I see a lot touched worn corners.
PSA is the benchmark grading company- meaning you don’t want to do worse but you want to try to do better
Psa is everyone's first choice, not me. To each their own but there is no way I will have them grade anything for me! I had a buddy send some cards in into psa and gave him a bad grade on several of them. Another buddy was sending in some of his into psa so he took 2 of the bad graded cards broke them open and sent them with the other buddy's cards and they came back 2 grades higher than they originally graded them at! To me that is ridiculous! They will never get my business! That's just my 2 cents!
My opinion....if psa is going to grade like shit and charge what they do, something needs to change. A simple explanation wouldn't take that long and would be beneficial for both sides
Top Babe Ruth special 1962 none are graded how much did it cost to Grade at PGA and without a grade their not worth nothing no mater the condition
Great video. I’ve done several subs with PSA and find their grading to be very, very inconsistent. Pulling a 7 feels like 9 /10 in the vintage, pre 1970 era.
Centering and surface is key. Anyone can look at corners and edges and easily say Ok that looks minty. But centering and surface is a lot trickier.
Than they should charge less for vintage, since they’re rendering the cards worthless with their ridiculous low grades. They have no intention of changing the pop reports on these cards imo.
brutally low grades.. now I wish I didn't send in an order of 21 vintage to them today...
Grading needs to graduate to the point where there is repeatability, transparency and the subjectiveness is eliminated. The only way we get there is electronic grading (like TAG) and I hope we get there sooner than later. We have to take the human out of the loop.
Psa is harsher on edges and corners and SGC is more on centering with vintage cards.
Psaisa joke and people till use them are nuts
Honestly man, these cards are not as “crisp” as you first described, idk seems about right, just my thoughts here
PSA's inconsistency with grading is become more apparent. I to have a decent collection of PSA holders, however, SGC is starting to become my go to. I sent them several cards that I thought were under graded and they fully agreed. I love the accurate and honest grading SGC provides and the turnaround.
yes subjective. should be objective. Most of us have been where you are BRO. What should we do?
I seen some thing like 15.00 dallor a card is that about right reply
I swear they don't know what they're doing when it comes to vintage lol