Everyone knows that techniques are only the beginning. But in the process of learning and using them you develop other intangible (sometimes) qualities and an understanding of the principles that create them.
"But many many people never get PAST point sparring, chi sao, push hands...the theory. " And so those people will never learn to fight. End of story. But I say to you, woe to the man who goes up against a traditional master of whatever art who has tested it in battle time and again. Your eyes will be opened.
Long before choosing Wing Chun, I studied standing Jiu Jitsu, BJJ, TKD, Muay Thai, & trained under great teachers such as Machado & Gracies. I started my martial interest at age 13, now I am 41. I even taught BJJ classes...yet here today, I have chosen to study Wing Chun, why? I never met anyone who could do it correctly before...it is a life changing thing to see one who can do it against anything anyone can throw at him. This man can easily take care of every past teacher I ever met.
When people talk about head movement, they probably don't mean moving your head in isolation. At least, boxers don't. Boxers slip punches by moving their whole body.
Basically, what I am saying is that in martial arts, you see the techniques as tools to solve problems. But you should understand what principles the tool uses to solve them. Then with that understanding u can also solve similar problems without the exact tool. So the technique is akin to the tool, but the tool is only a physical object which MUST use PRINCIPLES to function correctly. If you wish, I can send you a private link to show a couple of principles which u can adopt into any art.
In fact I see no problem with learning to fight first, quick, direct and it works, as your skills improve you gain more of an appreciation for the subtleties of something like taiji, bagua, or wing chun which may or may not offer instant gratification. After all, everything they do in MMA was done in TMA before that. It's the training style and environment (and commercialism these days) that made it what it is.
Do not be fooled by superficial appearances. Most of these MMA fighters have many health issues. And they either ignore them or brute force deal with them via drugs or mental stubbornness (constant tolerance). You can tolerate all you want, but that pain is there to tell you something. Tai Chi is a practice which promotes health and longevity & has martial applications. Indeed, out of all arts, I am most afraid of a PROPER Tai Chi player. BJJ, MMA...no problems. I used to do that stuff.
I am certainly biased. But my bias now is the complete 180 of my previous bias before I met capable Wing Chun masters. I can talk till I am blue in the face, the only way to see is for your to search for these people yourself and test them yourself. So you see, my bias is not based on emotional ignorant allegiance to any art or Sifu, it is based on 20 years of training and meeting teachers & practitioners of many arts both traditional & modern methodologies.
So Leung Sheung is one of these masters who knows two arts. But I can tell you that it doesn't not matter, since he aligned himself with Wing Chun for life eventually. As you say, everyone has different paths. I myself have experience in no less than 7 arts, chinese, vietnamese, japanese, & korean and thai. Where am I now?
@doinself Not really, good Xing Yi is HARD, particuarly in the first stage of traning which can take up to 5 years to compleate. If a person dosn't develope good HARD power as a base, their XingYi will always be weak. The phase of using a lot of internal power is the second or "hidden" stage. A lot of players ruin their Xing Yi by trying to skip to the second stage too quick. But a lot of teaches never even teach the stepping methods to generate real power in the first place.
Exactly, its better from a combative perspective to be well rounded. If you're a striker..what happens when you slip and fall? What if you're not as good as you thought? You best know at least some basic grappling and clinching. Agree it's entertainment and that's seriously effected the way many of them fight, showmanship has reared its head. I don't consider it the be all either. The thing they delve into is efficacy. That's part of the arts too remember.
tell that to Wing Lam, George Xu, Yang Jwing Ming, the Shaolin monks and a whole host of other traditionalists...they all study and teach multiple systems. Nobody's complaining about them.
"Perhaps if you take it to the same extreme the professionals do." By ur previous statements, these hardcore badass professionals should be perpetually better than the old TMA suckers. So why the change in tune now? I can guarantee you that the very best Tai Chi master in China will play with Rickson Gracie like a rag doll. I will bet my house on it. I'm actually laughing my ass off from this suggestion.
I have no more a Wing Chun complex than you have an MMA complex. Why the agitation when encountering replies which do not agree with your views about this subject? U have ur understanding which ur declaring to me & I have mine which I declare to u. Who is right or wrong? Does it matter? Even a physical encounter will not find the answer since everyone has bad days in combat.
@smalldash - yep. the problem is that people who are ignorant of martial arts think that MMA is the only way to do martial arts. It's only the surface. What they don't understand, they automatically discount. I made that mistake a long time ago when I studied BJJ & Muay Thai and went to a Wing Chun school to see what they could do. I thought I would break their arms and legs. I thought because I could stand my ground in my BJJ & kickboxing class, I would do fine at the WC school. I was wrong.
Agreed. But it's just a different approach. You can study wing chun in most schools and take 10 years mastering only standup striking/trapping. Or within that same 10 years also study judo/jujutsu and be much more well rounded than if you only studied either of them separately for the same amount of time. Eventually you might be able to catch up...eventually. But the cross trainer will continue to improve also, he doesn't sit still.
I never said it was wrong. I said it is a result of other factors related to the person's disposition. Leung Sheung was a master of the Dragon Style before he met Yip Man. Then he publically renounced his headship of the Hong Kong Dragon Style Organization and announced his discipleship under Yip Man...a man who was around 5.4 and weighed 125 lbs. Leung Sheung was 6' and weighed close to 200. Yip man threw handled him like a doll so thoroughly, it changed his life. So he knows WC & Dragon.
Do you actually think that a BJJ technique works because of the technique itself or because of the underlying principles of the technique? That u do not understand this or that principle as utilized in BJJ, Muay Thai, Tai Chi, does not mean that they do not exist or that they are not the reason why techniques in each art work. U keep on looking at techniques arsenals as the reason behind an art's success, by all means. I'll stick w/ my new understanding after all these years of searching.
Xing yi fighters will "fight as if they are on fire" as far as fighting a grappler, control his hands is key. but how often does your life depend on beating a grappler who is robbing or attacking you. even a navy seal would tell you not to fight unless you have no other choice. these are just some of my thoughts, its just one persons mind set. Traditional Martial arts encompass so many other aspects of life other than mere combat. if you only want to learn combat, join the marines. imho
Yes, being well rounded is important. If u think the only way to be well rounded in combat is literally studying everything under the sun to address every imaginable combat situation...then ur not able to penetrate through the deeper meaning of martial arts. An art is only a guiding map which should lead u to a higher understanding of the principles, not techniques of combat. When u reach this level, then techniques & hand foot shapes are incidental so long as u can apply the principles.
"contact point sparring, chi sao, push hands," No one should ever think that this is fighting. Nor should they think that sparring training in a kickboxing gym with a coach is really fighting. Nor rolling in BJJ. Every art has its tools to train certain aspects which aim to teach certain principles. To mistake the tools for the principles is no different than the finger for the moon.
Today, instant gratification is the norm. What more supremely faster & easy to deal with ground fighting than grappling? You see where we are going here? U think that original hsing-i masters never had to deal with ground adepts? think again. Please try to see farther than the obvious, get out of the instant gratification mind set. Just maybe, some treasures are infinitely more valuable but require magnitudes more effort to attain.
That depends on how you look at it. If you're defining the 'sport' of mma (or any other sport) then it's defined by its rule set. If you're defining it as an 'art form' then it's quite different. Its based on necessity. Sure its a sport, but its still the closest thing to actual fighting (not self defense I admit, big diff) we're going to get without being criminal. MMA was the equalizer that said anyone from any style or system can come in the octagon and....continued
If you read between the lines you'd realize what I meant was...they're not faking it. Not faking it=they're REALLY FIGHTING. Not practicing no contact point sparring, chi sao, push hands, mock up simulations. That makes it a real fight, I did not say it was a street fight or self defense. Obviously its not and I often point that out to people, and I never said anything was moot. I'll thank you to not try to read my mind and put words in my mouth.
and basically use their entire skill set with few exceptions. One thing quickly became clear...not single style or system has all the answers. It's not like those guys learn a little bit of jiujitsu, a little bit of boxing, a bit of wrestling and mix it all together. MMA is well beyond that. It's a continuous study of them all with an emphasis on what works for YOU (in that environment)
"If the MMA guy is a better fighter than the Karate guy now, he will be 10, or 20 years from now too." I disagree. The punishment that truly good MMA fighters is extremely damaging for the body and cannot be sustained. MMA is specifically designed for maximum usefulness in minimum time. It is not designed to be pondered or meditated upon over years. It destroys joint health & organs. In 10-20 years, depending on the age & amount of fights...MMA guy would do well to retire.
"Even an untrained man can defeat a martial artist." You imply that I am not good in BJJ or striking arts when I tested the Wing Chun school. Who is speaking from ignorance here? Do you know me? How marvelous that you possess this intimate knowledge of me and my skills.
Do you have a wing chun complex or something? There are many styles because people cross train, expand on what their teachers taught them, and do their own thing. But when modern people do it in a non traditional way, everyone has a fit. That's exactly what everyone else did. MMA is shallow in some ways, but it works, and is much more efficient than taking 20 years to delve into the deeper meaning when practicality is your aim. Its just faster, and just as effective if not more.
@gespilk This is just practicing the form. Of course it'd be different in a real fight, just like how a boxer practicing a drill won't be repeating that drill in a real fight.
But many many people never get PAST point sparring, chi sao, push hands...the theory. They never get past the theoretical understanding in to how to really apply it. Being aware of the application/theory/concepts is one thing...actually doing it when someone is trying to take your head off is quite another. People all over the place who are aware of the applications/concepts of their taiji, but I seriously doubt most ever practice realistically.
The way a vast majority of people teach TMA these days....they're all standing arts with little or no clinching or ground work so it then becomes necessary to go outside the art to shore up those skills. Even if they do eventually get to those areas of study, it's years down the road. There is also some truth to the statement: some traditionalists can't fathom that maybe, just maybe ancient china didn't know everything and some things have actually improved.
If you don't see my point after using your own logic and quotes to point out your one sided comment, then why try to explain more? The sun is in the sky and the trees on the ground...then someone asks, "explain". There is nothing to explain. Look at your own comment.
There surely is. But in both cases, having good technique or good 'techniques' both depend totally on the underlying principles. There is absolutely no exception to the rule. So if this is the truth of the matter, then one should wisely pursue the understanding of the underlying cause of success--->The Moon itself and not the finger pointing to the moon.
"Who's looking at techniques as the reason?" ur constant repetition of the importance of technique arsenals is enough to reveal a preoccupation with techniques. I am preocuppied with the underlying principles which make any technique work. I could care less about any particular technique per say. Techniques arise out of the principles, not of their own accord. Each principle can birth myriad techniques which express the principle itself. So many arts are born from the same group of principles.
"everything they do in MMA was done in TMA before that. " Absolutely. That is why Hsing I and other TMA only appear superficially to lack the tools to deal with ground fighters. Only to the novice...no matter how many TV interviews or videos he's made, if he can't use pure Hsing I or whatever he studies to deal with all situations, he is a novice.
No, I often say that some things may not work in THAT ENVIRONMENT. MMA is what it is because that's what has been shown to work in that environment. The same could be said for the street, a triangle choke is a good way to get slammed on your head when you take away weight classes and rules against spiking. Not to mention weapons, multiple attackers and the like. Don't misunderstand, I am not a mma is better than tma guy, or vice versa. I like both.
True, but that doesn't mean that the multiple system approach is WRONG. Evidence to the contrary is all around. It's quite uncommon in fact to find a master of Taiji who doesn't also practice Bagua, Xing i, or Liu He Ba Fa, or for that matter also an external art. If you study deeply perhaps its not NECESSARY to cross train. That doesn't mean its WRONG to cross train if you wish.
My opinion is that MMA is created because people think that more cheese is a good thing. They neither have the patience to master a system fully nor understand its subtleties so they patch together superficial ideas..literally. oh, i need to grapple so i will take grapping, oh i need to learn to hit, oh i need to learn to kick...etc. They keep studying but they hit a wall physically and healthwise before they ever get anything deeper out of all those things they are "studying".
"MMA ...is just a generic term for a kind of "rule" or competition." No, it is a generic term for a collection of techniques from various styles which fit the particular person who cannot master entire styles adequately, either by lack of patience, lack of understanding, lack of requisites for the style, improper mental disposition, improper body type etc. That is why the word "MIXED" is in MMA. It can exist in sport or non-sport mode. Again, take care that your cleverness doesn't betray u.
So it boils down to what kind of person wants to study MMA and what kind of person studies TMA. That's it. Not that MMA or TMA is better or worse. What is it the student wants from the two options. As fast as MMA allows practical usage, that is how dangerous TMA can be and even surpass if enough time and diligence is given to the study of TMA. That is all. U may never see a TMA fighter take UFC titles...does this mean that it doesn't work? If one is stupid, it certainly appears so.
Perhaps if you take it to the same extreme the professionals do. But most are regular people, and most Tai Chi players are just average as well. If you want to go that route, get your best Tai Chi guy vs Rickson Gracie. Your average Taiji exponent vs your average BJJ exponent=a beaten up Taiji person. We've effectively hijacked this entire thread and we're going in circles. lol
Around the turn of the last two centuries, evidence was abundance which seemed to describe reality with certainty. Newtonian physics, Bohr Atomic Model, General & Special Relativity were the mantles of human understanding of the Universe. Then came Quantum physics which ran counter to all these "self evident" truths & appeared super counter intuitive but turns out the fantastical properties of the quantum realm were the true profound things which ran the whole heap of things from the start.
Actually I debate with MMA guys who "bash" TMA too, just saying. Everyone is biased, it's to be expected. Some to the point of arrogance and elitism. I just like a good debate.
"and is much more efficient than taking 20 years to delve into the deeper meaning when practicality is your aim." This cannot be argued against...key word here is "practicallity" in short time. "Its just faster, and just as effective if not more." MMA most definitely is faster to use, & also effective...whether it is more effective than this or that fully mastered traditional art is debatable. U see the difference in mind of the MMA vs. 30yrs of studying 1 art? It is night & day.
"It works better, faster, now rather than later." I am under no illusion that TMA works fast. Quite the opposite is true. My own experience showed me that one month of Muay Thai & BJJ is more useful than two years of Wing Chun. If that were my goal...then I would stick with MMA. I say to u that once u penetrate the worthwhile knowledge of TMA like Wing Chun as an example, u won't even want to waste anymore of your time with the superficial MMA methods.
Though I should also say this. When I speak of MMA I am speaking of the approach or art form. Not the rules, steroids, cheating cowardly showmen. I'm referring to the idea that you have to be good at it all, once you have a well rounded base, many of them specialize. Well rounded base teaches you what you're good at and what you prefer, but don't slack on the other stuff either. Some prefer the practical side rather than the spiritual side. There's something for everyone.
When I say ignorant, it should not be understood as an insult, but rather an actual description. You are free to call anything I write ignorant so long as it is ignorant. When I say frail old men, it is a figure of speech to amplify my view of your opinions, not a claim that you are calling tai chi people frail old men. When I was a refugee in Malaysia from Vietnam, I saw a group of teens teasing an old taiji man. He ignored them, until they attacked him...the flew around like mosquitoes.
I say to u, that even Shaolin monks cannot surpass a master of a single art if that monk tries to use all his mixed skills against that master. Why? Because that master of the single art already should possess mastery of the principles of which the monk is trying to use against him with his multiple techniques from multiple systems he studied. There is no way the monk can have time to go as deep into a single art as one who studies it his whole life. Too many things to master & understand. IMO.
Not everyone takes it to the same extreme as the pro's do though. Cutting weight, roids, overtraining are definitely bad things in the long run, as is training insanely hard for a short time, then taking months off when they should pace themselves and maintain. But there's little to no excuse not to train whatever system you practice realistically these days. Push hands will only take you so far if you've never had real attacks thrown at you.
"Bottom line...wing chun will never teach you to be an elite level grappler..etc.." And grappling will never teach you how to be an elite level striker. Is this chat going the way you thought it would?
You dont have to "master' them to be able to use them. You can study karate all your life and eventually learn how to grapple perhaps..depending on who's teaching it. But if you just want to learn to protect yourself, there are much more efficient ways of achieving the same, or even superior skills. If the MMA guy is a better fighter than the Karate guy now, he will be 10, or 20 years from now too. Most MMA ppl are not pro's who inject toxins into their body, just regular people.
"when it comes down to 'fighting' rather than just 'boxing" I don't know how to explain to you that such statements are ignorant at best. I cannot count the times I have neutralized BJJ fighters in demonstrations in front of audiences simply by using Wing Chun motions...AFTER I allow them to mount and get me in a choke technique or a take down maneuver. I let them stay in their universe, while I use my tools to address their attack. Standing or laying down for me makes no difference.
That is exactly my martial journey which led me to settle on Wing Chun. I took the long way...from obvious to the profoundly subtle. And I will be damned if anyone will convince me to backtrack.
That still doesn't change the fact that they'd thrash a vast majority of so called traditional martial artists. I agree it's not "stopping the spear" but at least it's real and not pretend, and they put their money where their mouth is. It was created to see what works in a real fight, period. It's necessary to have rules. There's a lot more to it than you seem to think. The opposite is true as well. Everybody talks shit about everybody. You're talking shit about them right now
No it doesn't matter and I'm not agitated. This simply started because you said MMA was created because people couldn't master a single art which is simply not true
Though I do agree also that there are better people out there "at boxing" than a mixed martial artist. But that boxer would still get his ass kicked as we've seen time and again when it comes down to 'fighting' rather than just 'boxing'. Anyway I'm out, train hard, fall soft, and good luck.
Some pro-traditionalists like to use the "eye gouging" reasoning to defend gung fu against MMA. That is a superficial argument since u can take gloves of an MMA guy & he can also gouge eyes. They too do not get that mastery of principles will save u and not any particular technique.
It's not like they learn a little boxing, a little Jujutsu, a little wrestling and leave it at that. It's a continuous study of all aspects of the sport. So your definition is wrong. You make my point for me, studying just a grappling art will indeed not make you a good striker and vice versa. The point is that MMA is the equalizer that levels the playing field, albeit in a sportive way. Anyone from any system could use more or less their entire skill set in there.
Ask urself why there are so many styles of martial arts. Because there are many types of people who think differently & are different physically, there needs be different approaches to solving the issue. But to learn every approach is inefficient. These collections of arts all possess & use similar principles, yet their techniques appear different...don't look at the varying surface, look deeper to see the unifying principles. Then the style is irrelevant. Wing Chun has no meaning anymore.
I've never seen Aikido in the ring face off BJJ, Judo, or striking arts. But I ain't a fool to think that Ueshiba never whipped some Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Judo ass in his days. And certainly ain't foolish enough to think that those old masters of those arts were ineffective fighters. So I am not about to simply dismiss Aikido, even though I don't follow it. The same with any TMA that is absent in the ring. It just is irrelevant.
Ok, don't make this personal. You've called me/my comments ignorant multiple times, and now you're insinuating that I'm a hating troller who makes fun of frail (looking) old men.
Actually its more to do with the fact that any one style or system by itself is not good enough when you're fighting against someone who's just as good as you are, and/or has tools that you do not have. Bottom line...wing chun will never teach you to be an elite level grappler..etc. Its born of the idea not unlike the 5 elements. Take someone out of their comfort zone...they become a baby.
It is not that Xing-I or Wing Chun is better or worse than this or that art. It is just that within these systems, there is enough to take care of all situations if only u go deep enough. If u discount them after failing to defend against another art, or u never see it on pay TV beating MMA, then u err in concluding they're weak or useless. It takes hard work to reap the benefits of any one art. Were any of these traditional arts useless, they would have been extinct soon after they arise.
"We're all different and have different goals. Start learning one day, and don't stop." And if you insist on the MMA methodology, your body will cease to be able to handle it much sooner than later & you will end up in a wheelchair old and frail riddled with weak damaged organs and arthritis, while the "shitty" Tai Chi 90 yr. old guy is still out in the morning doing his sets and pushing teenage brutes around like paper sheets.
Look, in the context of the Octagon, MMA fighter go at it for real. They really try to hurt each other. But they are still bound by those regulations. They MUST adhere to those rules while they try to take each others' heads off. I find it disingenuous for you or anyone to write over-simplistic things which infer claims that MMA should be associate with "real" fighting and which discounts the merits of TMA in "real" fighting. So sure of urselves, u'll have to forgive my incredulity.
This is akin to the "evidence" which you see that runs contrary to TMA's efficacy. The profound truths contained within many TMA have been around for much longer than the newly found methods which modern fighters have cobbled together using the superfically obvious tools of the ancient arts from whence they originated. U will never see a super advanced maneuver from TMA being taught in an MMA class. It just takes too much thinking & practice. Beyond the time threshold limit for MMA.
A very skinny old man named Tsui Chon Tin. See how ridiculous he looks in the videos. Then make fun of him. Because you have never met him in person and do not understand the true method of the woman style.
Do you know who how many Wing Chun masters I consider exist on video on UA-cam? 1... and that man isn't even in my lineage. He does things a little different than I do. the rest are lunatics, from Leung Ting to all those "wing chun" muscle heads who propound superficial understandings such as 50/50 vs. 70//30 etc...they end up showing just how much the do not know while they feel puffed up in their studios on UA-cam. Ridiculous.
U see it as talking shit. I see it as observing. When u say "in a real fight" u reveal ur ignorance. MMA bouts are nothing to scoff at, however, they are not "real" fights...as deadly as they are, rules = mutually exclusive to "real". The more u write, the more u reveal ur limited understanding of things. That no "traditional" martial artists have fame via MMA is no proof that traditional arts are moot. As u say, there is much more that is unseen...especially in traditional arts.
"when it comes down to 'fighting' rather than just 'boxing" I don't know how to explain to you that such statements are ignorant at best. I cannot count the times I have neutralized BJJ fighters in demonstrations in front of audiences simply by using Wing Chun motions...AFTER I allow them to mount and get me in a choke technique or a take down maneuver. I let them stay in their universe, while I use my tools to address their attack. Standing or laying down for me makes no difference.
I am no expert, just a beginner, but I can feel the special power behind this. This is excellent.
Everyone knows that techniques are only the beginning. But in the process of learning and using them you develop other intangible (sometimes) qualities and an understanding of the principles that create them.
"But many many people never get PAST point sparring, chi sao, push hands...the theory. "
And so those people will never learn to fight. End of story. But I say to you, woe to the man who goes up against a traditional master of whatever art who has tested it in battle time and again. Your eyes will be opened.
Long before choosing Wing Chun, I studied standing Jiu Jitsu, BJJ, TKD, Muay Thai, & trained under great teachers such as Machado & Gracies. I started my martial interest at age 13, now I am 41. I even taught BJJ classes...yet here today, I have chosen to study Wing Chun, why?
I never met anyone who could do it correctly before...it is a life changing thing to see one who can do it against anything anyone can throw at him. This man can easily take care of every past teacher I ever met.
When people talk about head movement, they probably don't mean moving your head in isolation. At least, boxers don't. Boxers slip punches by moving their whole body.
Basically, what I am saying is that in martial arts, you see the techniques as tools to solve problems. But you should understand what principles the tool uses to solve them. Then with that understanding u can also solve similar problems without the exact tool. So the technique is akin to the tool, but the tool is only a physical object which MUST use PRINCIPLES to function correctly.
If you wish, I can send you a private link to show a couple of principles which u can adopt into any art.
Initially suspicious this linked form . but five fists look solid.. especially that Pi Chuan👍
In fact I see no problem with learning to fight first, quick, direct and it works, as your skills improve you gain more of an appreciation for the subtleties of something like taiji, bagua, or wing chun which may or may not offer instant gratification. After all, everything they do in MMA was done in TMA before that. It's the training style and environment (and commercialism these days) that made it what it is.
Do not be fooled by superficial appearances. Most of these MMA fighters have many health issues. And they either ignore them or brute force deal with them via drugs or mental stubbornness (constant tolerance). You can tolerate all you want, but that pain is there to tell you something.
Tai Chi is a practice which promotes health and longevity & has martial applications. Indeed, out of all arts, I am most afraid of a PROPER Tai Chi player. BJJ, MMA...no problems. I used to do that stuff.
大致還不錯;稍有瑕疵
The best I have ever seen. Some real ki there.
Been fun. Sleep time. I been doing my 6 mile runs at 9 am instead of the normal 6am...can't do that tonight again.
I am certainly biased. But my bias now is the complete 180 of my previous bias before I met capable Wing Chun masters. I can talk till I am blue in the face, the only way to see is for your to search for these people yourself and test them yourself.
So you see, my bias is not based on emotional ignorant allegiance to any art or Sifu, it is based on 20 years of training and meeting teachers & practitioners of many arts both traditional & modern methodologies.
This is the best video I found for learning : it gives an excellent idea of how to move.
Can you date this video ? 1970's ? earlier ?
thanks
So Leung Sheung is one of these masters who knows two arts. But I can tell you that it doesn't not matter, since he aligned himself with Wing Chun for life eventually. As you say, everyone has different paths. I myself have experience in no less than 7 arts, chinese, vietnamese, japanese, & korean and thai. Where am I now?
Who's looking at techniques as the reason? Where do you get that? I guess the eye sees what it chooses to see.
240p, it's been a while my friend
Agreed. However since MMA gloves are fingerless they can even with their gloves on. Happens all the time in fact.
@doinself Not really, good Xing Yi is HARD, particuarly in the first stage of traning which can take up to 5 years to compleate. If a person dosn't develope good HARD power as a base, their XingYi will always be weak. The phase of using a lot of internal power is the second or "hidden" stage. A lot of players ruin their Xing Yi by trying to skip to the second stage too quick. But a lot of teaches never even teach the stepping methods to generate real power in the first place.
Exactly, its better from a combative perspective to be well rounded. If you're a striker..what happens when you slip and fall? What if you're not as good as you thought? You best know at least some basic grappling and clinching. Agree it's entertainment and that's seriously effected the way many of them fight, showmanship has reared its head. I don't consider it the be all either. The thing they delve into is efficacy. That's part of the arts too remember.
tell that to Wing Lam, George Xu, Yang Jwing Ming, the Shaolin monks and a whole host of other traditionalists...they all study and teach multiple systems. Nobody's complaining about them.
"Perhaps if you take it to the same extreme the professionals do."
By ur previous statements, these hardcore badass professionals should be perpetually better than the old TMA suckers. So why the change in tune now?
I can guarantee you that the very best Tai Chi master in China will play with Rickson Gracie like a rag doll. I will bet my house on it. I'm actually laughing my ass off from this suggestion.
I have no more a Wing Chun complex than you have an MMA complex. Why the agitation when encountering replies which do not agree with your views about this subject? U have ur understanding which ur declaring to me & I have mine which I declare to u. Who is right or wrong? Does it matter? Even a physical encounter will not find the answer since everyone has bad days in combat.
@smalldash - yep. the problem is that people who are ignorant of martial arts think that MMA is the only way to do martial arts. It's only the surface. What they don't understand, they automatically discount. I made that mistake a long time ago when I studied BJJ & Muay Thai and went to a Wing Chun school to see what they could do. I thought I would break their arms and legs. I thought because I could stand my ground in my BJJ & kickboxing class, I would do fine at the WC school. I was wrong.
Agreed. But it's just a different approach. You can study wing chun in most schools and take 10 years mastering only standup striking/trapping. Or within that same 10 years also study judo/jujutsu and be much more well rounded than if you only studied either of them separately for the same amount of time. Eventually you might be able to catch up...eventually. But the cross trainer will continue to improve also, he doesn't sit still.
I never said it was wrong. I said it is a result of other factors related to the person's disposition.
Leung Sheung was a master of the Dragon Style before he met Yip Man. Then he publically renounced his headship of the Hong Kong Dragon Style Organization and announced his discipleship under Yip Man...a man who was around 5.4 and weighed 125 lbs. Leung Sheung was 6' and weighed close to 200. Yip man threw handled him like a doll so thoroughly, it changed his life. So he knows WC & Dragon.
Do you actually think that a BJJ technique works because of the technique itself or because of the underlying principles of the technique?
That u do not understand this or that principle as utilized in BJJ, Muay Thai, Tai Chi, does not mean that they do not exist or that they are not the reason why techniques in each art work.
U keep on looking at techniques arsenals as the reason behind an art's success, by all means.
I'll stick w/ my new understanding after all these years of searching.
Xing yi fighters will "fight as if they are on fire" as far as fighting a grappler, control his hands is key. but how often does your life depend on beating a grappler who is robbing or attacking you. even a navy seal would tell you not to fight unless you have no other choice. these are just some of my thoughts, its just one persons mind set. Traditional Martial arts encompass so many other aspects of life other than mere combat. if you only want to learn combat, join the marines. imho
Yes, being well rounded is important. If u think the only way to be well rounded in combat is literally studying everything under the sun to address every imaginable combat situation...then ur not able to penetrate through the deeper meaning of martial arts. An art is only a guiding map which should lead u to a higher understanding of the principles, not techniques of combat. When u reach this level, then techniques & hand foot shapes are incidental so long as u can apply the principles.
"contact point sparring, chi sao, push hands,"
No one should ever think that this is fighting. Nor should they think that sparring training in a kickboxing gym with a coach is really fighting. Nor rolling in BJJ.
Every art has its tools to train certain aspects which aim to teach certain principles. To mistake the tools for the principles is no different than the finger for the moon.
But it's still just YOUR experience, other people have their own.
Today, instant gratification is the norm. What more supremely faster & easy to deal with ground fighting than grappling? You see where we are going here? U think that original hsing-i masters never had to deal with ground adepts? think again.
Please try to see farther than the obvious, get out of the instant gratification mind set. Just maybe, some treasures are infinitely more valuable but require magnitudes more effort to attain.
That depends on how you look at it. If you're defining the 'sport' of mma (or any other sport) then it's defined by its rule set. If you're defining it as an 'art form' then it's quite different. Its based on necessity. Sure its a sport, but its still the closest thing to actual fighting (not self defense I admit, big diff) we're going to get without being criminal. MMA was the equalizer that said anyone from any style or system can come in the octagon and....continued
If you read between the lines you'd realize what I meant was...they're not faking it. Not faking it=they're REALLY FIGHTING. Not practicing no contact point sparring, chi sao, push hands, mock up simulations. That makes it a real fight, I did not say it was a street fight or self defense. Obviously its not and I often point that out to people, and I never said anything was moot. I'll thank you to not try to read my mind and put words in my mouth.
and basically use their entire skill set with few exceptions. One thing quickly became clear...not single style or system has all the answers. It's not like those guys learn a little bit of jiujitsu, a little bit of boxing, a bit of wrestling and mix it all together. MMA is well beyond that. It's a continuous study of them all with an emphasis on what works for YOU (in that environment)
"If the MMA guy is a better fighter than the Karate guy now, he will be 10, or 20 years from now too."
I disagree. The punishment that truly good MMA fighters is extremely damaging for the body and cannot be sustained. MMA is specifically designed for maximum usefulness in minimum time. It is not designed to be pondered or meditated upon over years. It destroys joint health & organs. In 10-20 years, depending on the age & amount of fights...MMA guy would do well to retire.
There's a difference between having good 'technique' and 'techniques' though too.
"Even an untrained man can defeat a martial artist."
You imply that I am not good in BJJ or striking arts when I tested the Wing Chun school.
Who is speaking from ignorance here? Do you know me? How marvelous that you possess this intimate knowledge of me and my skills.
Do you have a wing chun complex or something? There are many styles because people cross train, expand on what their teachers taught them, and do their own thing. But when modern people do it in a non traditional way, everyone has a fit. That's exactly what everyone else did. MMA is shallow in some ways, but it works, and is much more efficient than taking 20 years to delve into the deeper meaning when practicality is your aim. Its just faster, and just as effective if not more.
@gespilk This is just practicing the form. Of course it'd be different in a real fight, just like how a boxer practicing a drill won't be repeating that drill in a real fight.
But many many people never get PAST point sparring, chi sao, push hands...the theory. They never get past the theoretical understanding in to how to really apply it. Being aware of the application/theory/concepts is one thing...actually doing it when someone is trying to take your head off is quite another. People all over the place who are aware of the applications/concepts of their taiji, but I seriously doubt most ever practice realistically.
The way a vast majority of people teach TMA these days....they're all standing arts with little or no clinching or ground work so it then becomes necessary to go outside the art to shore up those skills. Even if they do eventually get to those areas of study, it's years down the road. There is also some truth to the statement: some traditionalists can't fathom that maybe, just maybe ancient china didn't know everything and some things have actually improved.
If you don't see my point after using your own logic and quotes to point out your one sided comment, then why try to explain more? The sun is in the sky and the trees on the ground...then someone asks, "explain". There is nothing to explain. Look at your own comment.
There surely is. But in both cases, having good technique or good 'techniques' both depend totally on the underlying principles. There is absolutely no exception to the rule. So if this is the truth of the matter, then one should wisely pursue the understanding of the underlying cause of success--->The Moon itself and not the finger pointing to the moon.
"Who's looking at techniques as the reason?"
ur constant repetition of the importance of technique arsenals is enough to reveal a preoccupation with techniques. I am preocuppied with the underlying principles which make any technique work. I could care less about any particular technique per say. Techniques arise out of the principles, not of their own accord.
Each principle can birth myriad techniques which express the principle itself. So many arts are born from the same group of principles.
I love your comment, and I feel the love for the principles as well... oddly I want to share with you the video called "Vinh Xuan game"
"everything they do in MMA was done in TMA before that. "
Absolutely. That is why Hsing I and other TMA only appear superficially to lack the tools to deal with ground fighters. Only to the novice...no matter how many TV interviews or videos he's made, if he can't use pure Hsing I or whatever he studies to deal with all situations, he is a novice.
No, I often say that some things may not work in THAT ENVIRONMENT. MMA is what it is because that's what has been shown to work in that environment. The same could be said for the street, a triangle choke is a good way to get slammed on your head when you take away weight classes and rules against spiking. Not to mention weapons, multiple attackers and the like. Don't misunderstand, I am not a mma is better than tma guy, or vice versa. I like both.
True, but that doesn't mean that the multiple system approach is WRONG. Evidence to the contrary is all around. It's quite uncommon in fact to find a master of Taiji who doesn't also practice Bagua, Xing i, or Liu He Ba Fa, or for that matter also an external art. If you study deeply perhaps its not NECESSARY to cross train. That doesn't mean its WRONG to cross train if you wish.
And who might that one master be?
Muito Bom! Very Good!
My opinion is that MMA is created because people think that more cheese is a good thing. They neither have the patience to master a system fully nor understand its subtleties so they patch together superficial ideas..literally. oh, i need to grapple so i will take grapping, oh i need to learn to hit, oh i need to learn to kick...etc.
They keep studying but they hit a wall physically and healthwise before they ever get anything deeper out of all those things they are "studying".
@99oroshisoba Would you please rewrite this address? It's missing something...Thanks!
"MMA ...is just a generic term for a kind of "rule" or competition."
No, it is a generic term for a collection of techniques from various styles which fit the particular person who cannot master entire styles adequately, either by lack of patience, lack of understanding, lack of requisites for the style, improper mental disposition, improper body type etc. That is why the word "MIXED" is in MMA.
It can exist in sport or non-sport mode.
Again, take care that your cleverness doesn't betray u.
So it boils down to what kind of person wants to study MMA and what kind of person studies TMA. That's it.
Not that MMA or TMA is better or worse. What is it the student wants from the two options. As fast as MMA allows practical usage, that is how dangerous TMA can be and even surpass if enough time and diligence is given to the study of TMA. That is all.
U may never see a TMA fighter take UFC titles...does this mean that it doesn't work? If one is stupid, it certainly appears so.
Perhaps if you take it to the same extreme the professionals do. But most are regular people, and most Tai Chi players are just average as well. If you want to go that route, get your best Tai Chi guy vs Rickson Gracie. Your average Taiji exponent vs your average BJJ exponent=a beaten up Taiji person. We've effectively hijacked this entire thread and we're going in circles. lol
Around the turn of the last two centuries, evidence was abundance which seemed to describe reality with certainty. Newtonian physics, Bohr Atomic Model, General & Special Relativity were the mantles of human understanding of the Universe.
Then came Quantum physics which ran counter to all these "self evident" truths & appeared super counter intuitive but turns out the fantastical properties of the quantum realm were the true profound things which ran the whole heap of things from the start.
Actually I debate with MMA guys who "bash" TMA too, just saying. Everyone is biased, it's to be expected. Some to the point of arrogance and elitism. I just like a good debate.
"and is much more efficient than taking 20 years to delve into the deeper meaning when practicality is your aim."
This cannot be argued against...key word here is "practicallity" in short time.
"Its just faster, and just as effective if not more."
MMA most definitely is faster to use, & also effective...whether it is more effective than this or that fully mastered traditional art is debatable.
U see the difference in mind of the MMA vs. 30yrs of studying 1 art? It is night & day.
awesome
"It works better, faster, now rather than later."
I am under no illusion that TMA works fast. Quite the opposite is true. My own experience showed me that one month of Muay Thai & BJJ is more useful than two years of Wing Chun. If that were my goal...then I would stick with MMA. I say to u that once u penetrate the worthwhile knowledge of TMA like Wing Chun as an example, u won't even want to waste anymore of your time with the superficial MMA methods.
A man who is performing in the latter half [4:52-End] is performing here.
↓
NuFEf4yOyHs
best
Though I should also say this. When I speak of MMA I am speaking of the approach or art form. Not the rules, steroids, cheating cowardly showmen. I'm referring to the idea that you have to be good at it all, once you have a well rounded base, many of them specialize. Well rounded base teaches you what you're good at and what you prefer, but don't slack on the other stuff either. Some prefer the practical side rather than the spiritual side. There's something for everyone.
When I say ignorant, it should not be understood as an insult, but rather an actual description. You are free to call anything I write ignorant so long as it is ignorant.
When I say frail old men, it is a figure of speech to amplify my view of your opinions, not a claim that you are calling tai chi people frail old men.
When I was a refugee in Malaysia from Vietnam, I saw a group of teens teasing an old taiji man. He ignored them, until they attacked him...the flew around like mosquitoes.
I do not think you are trying to convince me or anyone. That is self evident.
I say to u, that even Shaolin monks cannot surpass a master of a single art if that monk tries to use all his mixed skills against that master. Why? Because that master of the single art already should possess mastery of the principles of which the monk is trying to use against him with his multiple techniques from multiple systems he studied. There is no way the monk can have time to go as deep into a single art as one who studies it his whole life. Too many things to master & understand. IMO.
That's the problem. There are so very few who have really tested it in battle. So many just pretend.
Not everyone takes it to the same extreme as the pro's do though. Cutting weight, roids, overtraining are definitely bad things in the long run, as is training insanely hard for a short time, then taking months off when they should pace themselves and maintain. But there's little to no excuse not to train whatever system you practice realistically these days. Push hands will only take you so far if you've never had real attacks thrown at you.
"Bottom line...wing chun will never teach you to be an elite level grappler..etc.."
And grappling will never teach you how to be an elite level striker. Is this chat going the way you thought it would?
You dont have to "master' them to be able to use them. You can study karate all your life and eventually learn how to grapple perhaps..depending on who's teaching it. But if you just want to learn to protect yourself, there are much more efficient ways of achieving the same, or even superior skills. If the MMA guy is a better fighter than the Karate guy now, he will be 10, or 20 years from now too. Most MMA ppl are not pro's who inject toxins into their body, just regular people.
"when it comes down to 'fighting' rather than just 'boxing"
I don't know how to explain to you that such statements are ignorant at best.
I cannot count the times I have neutralized BJJ fighters in demonstrations in front of audiences simply by using Wing Chun motions...AFTER I allow them to mount and get me in a choke technique or a take down maneuver.
I let them stay in their universe, while I use my tools to address their attack. Standing or laying down for me makes no difference.
That is exactly my martial journey which led me to settle on Wing Chun. I took the long way...from obvious to the profoundly subtle. And I will be damned if anyone will convince me to backtrack.
Not trying to. But each person walks his/her own path.
Time to train.
That still doesn't change the fact that they'd thrash a vast majority of so called traditional martial artists. I agree it's not "stopping the spear" but at least it's real and not pretend, and they put their money where their mouth is. It was created to see what works in a real fight, period. It's necessary to have rules. There's a lot more to it than you seem to think. The opposite is true as well. Everybody talks shit about everybody. You're talking shit about them right now
Do you have a point?
No it doesn't matter and I'm not agitated. This simply started because you said MMA was created because people couldn't master a single art which is simply not true
起鑽落翻
Though I do agree also that there are better people out there "at boxing" than a mixed martial artist. But that boxer would still get his ass kicked as we've seen time and again when it comes down to 'fighting' rather than just 'boxing'. Anyway I'm out, train hard, fall soft, and good luck.
Some pro-traditionalists like to use the "eye gouging" reasoning to defend gung fu against MMA. That is a superficial argument since u can take gloves of an MMA guy & he can also gouge eyes. They too do not get that mastery of principles will save u and not any particular technique.
It's not like they learn a little boxing, a little Jujutsu, a little wrestling and leave it at that. It's a continuous study of all aspects of the sport. So your definition is wrong. You make my point for me, studying just a grappling art will indeed not make you a good striker and vice versa. The point is that MMA is the equalizer that levels the playing field, albeit in a sportive way. Anyone from any system could use more or less their entire skill set in there.
Ask urself why there are so many styles of martial arts. Because there are many types of people who think differently & are different physically, there needs be different approaches to solving the issue. But to learn every approach is inefficient. These collections of arts all possess & use similar principles, yet their techniques appear different...don't look at the varying surface, look deeper to see the unifying principles. Then the style is irrelevant. Wing Chun has no meaning anymore.
And I've seen a 70 year old boxer knock the crap out of a home invader.
I've never seen Aikido in the ring face off BJJ, Judo, or striking arts. But I ain't a fool to think that Ueshiba never whipped some Jiu Jitsu, Karate, Judo ass in his days. And certainly ain't foolish enough to think that those old masters of those arts were ineffective fighters.
So I am not about to simply dismiss Aikido, even though I don't follow it. The same with any TMA that is absent in the ring. It just is irrelevant.
my god!! there are lots of so-called "master" !! or talker```` not doer``
Ok, don't make this personal. You've called me/my comments ignorant multiple times, and now you're insinuating that I'm a hating troller who makes fun of frail (looking) old men.
Actually its more to do with the fact that any one style or system by itself is not good enough when you're fighting against someone who's just as good as you are, and/or has tools that you do not have. Bottom line...wing chun will never teach you to be an elite level grappler..etc. Its born of the idea not unlike the 5 elements. Take someone out of their comfort zone...they become a baby.
It is not that Xing-I or Wing Chun is better or worse than this or that art. It is just that within these systems, there is enough to take care of all situations if only u go deep enough. If u discount them after failing to defend against another art, or u never see it on pay TV beating MMA, then u err in concluding they're weak or useless. It takes hard work to reap the benefits of any one art. Were any of these traditional arts useless, they would have been extinct soon after they arise.
"We're all different and have different goals. Start learning one day, and don't stop."
And if you insist on the MMA methodology, your body will cease to be able to handle it much sooner than later & you will end up in a wheelchair old and frail riddled with weak damaged organs and arthritis, while the "shitty" Tai Chi 90 yr. old guy is still out in the morning doing his sets and pushing teenage brutes around like paper sheets.
Look, in the context of the Octagon, MMA fighter go at it for real. They really try to hurt each other. But they are still bound by those regulations. They MUST adhere to those rules while they try to take each others' heads off.
I find it disingenuous for you or anyone to write over-simplistic things which infer claims that MMA should be associate with "real" fighting and which discounts the merits of TMA in "real" fighting.
So sure of urselves, u'll have to forgive my incredulity.
This is akin to the "evidence" which you see that runs contrary to TMA's efficacy. The profound truths contained within many TMA have been around for much longer than the newly found methods which modern fighters have cobbled together using the superfically obvious tools of the ancient arts from whence they originated.
U will never see a super advanced maneuver from TMA being taught in an MMA class. It just takes too much thinking & practice. Beyond the time threshold limit for MMA.
I agree to an extent but some things like 4:43 are just kind of comical and I can't imagine a use for them
A very skinny old man named Tsui Chon Tin. See how ridiculous he looks in the videos. Then make fun of him. Because you have never met him in person and do not understand the true method of the woman style.
燕子要抄水
Do you know who how many Wing Chun masters I consider exist on video on UA-cam? 1... and that man isn't even in my lineage. He does things a little different than I do. the rest are lunatics, from Leung Ting to all those "wing chun" muscle heads who propound superficial understandings such as 50/50 vs. 70//30 etc...they end up showing just how much the do not know while they feel puffed up in their studios on UA-cam.
Ridiculous.
U see it as talking shit. I see it as observing. When u say "in a real fight" u reveal ur ignorance. MMA bouts are nothing to scoff at, however, they are not "real" fights...as deadly as they are, rules = mutually exclusive to "real". The more u write, the more u reveal ur limited understanding of things.
That no "traditional" martial artists have fame via MMA is no proof that traditional arts are moot. As u say, there is much more that is unseen...especially in traditional arts.
"when it comes down to 'fighting' rather than just 'boxing"
I don't know how to explain to you that such statements are ignorant at best.
I cannot count the times I have neutralized BJJ fighters in demonstrations in front of audiences simply by using Wing Chun motions...AFTER I allow them to mount and get me in a choke technique or a take down maneuver.
I let them stay in their universe, while I use my tools to address their attack. Standing or laying down for me makes no difference.