I have been heating with Vermont Casting stoves for over 40 years, starting with the original Defiant and Vigilant in the late 70s bought directly from the foundry in Randolph Vermont and now with two 90s vintage Defiant Encores bought used, both forest green. Every year I say thanks to Duncan Syme for designing these excellent stoves. It is sad to hear of your experience with these flex burn models; I have not experienced any of these problems with my 90s Defiant Encores and while I bought one with a broken liner for the catalytic combustor which I replaced, I have not had to replace either combuster or had any overheat problems in that area even though the stoves have sometimes reached as high as 900 degrees F on the top plate.
Thank you Dale for your video. On Saturday I put a large deposit down on two Vermont Castings stoves. The fact that they weaseled out of the warranty claim is absolutely appalling and was absolutely reason enough for me to get my deposit back and continue with my research before buying. In my opinion, any company that looks for excuses not to honor their written contract is not a company I’m comfortable in supporting. When it comes down to it , a warranty is only as good as the company that wrote it. Thank you again for taking the time to so methodically explain your situation! It is deeply appreciated.
Thank You for making this video. I thought I was the only one with this problem. On my second Encore and am now convinced when the time comes, I will replace with another brand. Thank God for JP Chimney of Gardiner NY who has been VERY helpful along the way.
Thank you Dale for your video. And I thought I was the only one with this problem. I have had my Encore flex burn for one year and one month as of today. I am on my 6th combustor. After I returned two combustors to Midwest Hearth, they reached out to me and told me they wouldn't replace any more of them. Vermont castings has also replaced two catalysts. I am now purchasing them knowing nobody will warrant them. I was a way from wood burning for many years but this is the third Vermont casting stove that we've had. Originally, we had models from the early 1990s that worked perfectly with the circular cumbusters and never had any problem probably because the combustor was located above the firebox and not at the bottom of the firebox. This is a poorly designed stove and can be very dangerous. I have read some of the comments in which VC dealers state that the would being burned is either too wet or too dry. They always pass the buck on to the customer. Do you know of any other stove manufacturer that only gives you about a 6-month window of perfectly seasoned wood that is not too wet or too dry. Please, trust me and trust Dale on this matter. Don't purchase any stove unit from Vermont castings. At a minimum, you may have the same issues that we are dealing with, or worse.
Vermont castings PR department failed to do the calculus on how many stove sales they'd lose by denying your warranty claim. I see 23,281 views here even if 1% would have purchased that's 23 lost sales. Thanks for sharing your hard luck experience with Vermont Castings, it has likely saved others from having the same negative experience.
The store where you bought the stove from is supposed to handle the warranty. VC will replace the interior for free if this happens to first time. I have been a VC dealer for 12 years now and have been a wood stove tech for 35 years. This is brought on by wet wood or over seasoned wood. It doesn't matter who made the stove, garbage in, garbage out. Get a moisture meter!
@@thefirehousestoveshoppe48 Doesn't matter company failed to interact with customer well, honor warranty, and it equals lost sales by other possible customers. Vermont Castings flexburn isn't even on my list of considerations for stoves now. Did you watch the video??! You make assertions you can't even possibly know so there's zero reason to trust you. That type of behavior makes me want to stay away from any VC dealer as well. The guy who shot this is a HERO for letting us know his *Real World* experience. But by all means tell the Canadian who built his own home that he doesn't know how to select properly cured wood.
@@thefirehousestoveshoppe48 This response is presumptive and arrogant. You have no data to back up your dismissive reply. I bet that’s the response I would get from a VC salesman despite the reality of a faulty product. Blame the customer eh? Bad business model! Yet another reason to run from VC stoves.
@@anymor7609 Putting I have a Blazeking Ashford in my home I have never had the chance to burn properly seasoned wood, because I don't have acres of land. I live in a city, I can at most have 3-4 cords of firewood stored on my property at a time. The ashford is a catalytic stove, it has no issues at all with burning it, the cat looks as good as the day I bought it, the only thing I need to do is when refiring the stove after cleaning it out is let the cat get into range and then let the stove burn for as hot as it wants (draft full open) for about 30 minutes. I clean my chimney 3 times during the winter and remove minimal creosote, but better safe then sorry. Again burning none seasoned Spruce that often has sap / pitch leaking from it. Friend has a Blazeking King in his house same story. If Vermont Castings stoves are this fragile that they can only burn wood in a certain range before they self destruct then I will not be putting one upstairs in my house even though I wanted a 2nd decorative stove. I'll go with a competitor.
Thanks for this! And not to be judgmental however looking at how clean your stove is and how beautiful your home is makes me think you take care of your things well and therefore eliminates any question of user error. With that said I do not want to worry about loading a stove and falling asleep, or going to work and having a runaway fire
Just because someone is licensed doesn’t mean they take pride or extra measures to do a top notch installation. Its a warranty scapegoat cause if you do a poor installation the stove will be the least of your worries. Man’s lucky it didn’t burn the house up while sleeping.
I appreciate the thoroughness of your review and the explanation behind what went wrong. I'm so lost on the inner workings of the secondary chamber, the whole thing is a mystery to me. Our stove came with the house when we bought it, and learning how to work with it has been a challenge. I've come to understand that other woodburning stoves, though less beautiful, are much simpler and much less delicate to work with.
Interesting that the new VC Encores warranties their combustors for 6 years and the Flexburn system has a lifetime limited warranty. I wonder if they have solved the design problem you experienced. See page 4 of the Encore Model 2040-CAT-C Owners operating manual. I've been burning the Vermont casting XL Dutchwest 2466(cat stove) since 1991 flawlessly. I've probably burned 100 cord through it over the past 30 years and it's been amazing. I'm thinking of trying the new Encore and I appreciate you sharing your experience. I understand the new models are a redesign.
@@Scott-dn1bk How do you know they haven't solved anything? I purchased the Vermont Casting Encore and installed it in January 2022. I've only burned it for a few months now and probably 2 cords of wood, but I've been very pleased with the performance. Purchase and installation support with my local dealer has been superb. I guess I'm 3 for 3 with VC Cat stoves. They have all been outstanding over the past 30+ years and have over 100 cords of wood.
Very good video. Just installed new intrepid. Wish I had never seen it. Have woke up twice to the sound of smoke alarms blaring. Our complaints are falling on deaf ears,from both the manufacturer and the stove dealership. Wish I had seen your video before our purchase.
I've had the Encore Flexburn for 5 years now with no issues. You can't beat it's top load function, outdoor air kit, and looks. As a kid I grew up with a side-load stove, and coals were always jumping out at you, and rolling to the floor, burning it. You just cant state the loading efficiency, capacity, and safety of a top load stove. I will be buying another for our new house we're building.
I have a Resolute stove from the early 80's and was interested in a cheery enamel Vermont Castings stove. My house is in Vermont after all! I hear you loud and clear, and am dismayed by their dismal failures and customer support services. I won't risk it! I had noticed that the wood stove vendors nearest to me don't list Vermont Castings and now I guess I know why. I wonder if you always kept your cool dealing with these problems as you did on You Tube in describing the history of your experience. On behalf of Vermont, I am very sorry!
Thanks for this review. I bought a VC Encore in 1999 and kept eating through catalysts. Went to a Hearthstone and love it. Looking at the Intrepid Flexburn for an addition. Top loading and ash pan are awesome. The catalysts are an option, so if I decide on VC again, won't get the catalyst.
Thank you very informative . Have been looking at VC Defiant, Encore, Intrepid Flexburns, Jotuls and BK's. Thanks for narrowing down my choices to Jotul and/or BK.
Excellent post, I did get a used VC wood stove for our cottage but I had heard about issues with their catalytics so we got one with the alternate reburner system. Hopefully it will not cause us any issues. Vermont Castings has had a terrible customer service record for a very long time now, it’s too bad really.
You are quite right! We had many years ago a non - cathalythic resolute, it came with a tag saying: "Tested for airseal" but it wasn't tested at all! The top around the top filling chute door was not flat and smoke came out into the living room causing constant demand for cleaning. A new top send as a replacement, but I had to install it myself. -Porcelain handle broke after a while due to opening the front doors and a brass one machined by a friend overcame this problem. The side mesh shelfs had different profile not corresponding with the stove, I realized that the stove range all had different top-corner profile, but only one type at the shelfs. The underside flaps for the Allen screws are far too flimsy and they broke off in normal use. A coalburning grate set wasn't much better; when using the shaker grate coalpieces blocked the movement and eventually lifted the furnace sidepanels and after sometime the firebars "bent downwards" and of no use. Firebars must be of a special heat resitant alloy capable of dealing with the intense heat, but here its not!! We have allways used powerdry wood, but the way the secondary combustion chamber was designed it didn't work properly as it is too cold and the otherwise combustible smoke wnet up in the chimney to no use. In fact the was heavy deposits in the chimney and the chimneysweeper said that all theese stoves have the same problem: ie risk of fire in the chimney. There is people here on You tube that for good reasons complains about the Aspen C3 stove, where the airchannels inside it is filled with too much heat resistent cement, blocking the air to the combustion and producing unwanted smoke and less heat. My father bought an Intrepid, here the cast iron combustion chamber slowly deterioated after 2 seasons, consequently this was the last Vermont stove we bought and do not recomment it. Use the Canadian Bullerjan tubestove or better the European Walltherm it can burn 5 hours without refueling, as the wood gas represents 80% of the heat and it burns it with bluewhite flames all combustible stuff is burned and there is no smoke! The stove sends 30% of the heat to the room and the rest 70% through the central heating system, thus heating the house, heating your hot water and it will take 20kg fuel each time. The tecnology is far better, but have a look at www.Walltherm.com for details. HM. marine engineer.
I had an Encore that was our primary source of heat and never had any issues. We would regularly get about 11 hour burns with it stuffed full and everything banked down.
Well done. I have a Jotul V500 with the same issues. They say that the issue is the tall straight chimney I have, results in to much draft. I was thinking of replacing it with a Vermont Casting stove but sounds like I would have the same issue. They suggest adding a damper but won’t put it in writing so insurance won’t cover damage if a fire resulted. Does anyone make a stove that will not over fire with a long straight chimney ?
The earlier Defiants didn't have this problem. You can tell the difference by where you load/inspect the combustor. The one I have is in the rear. Great Stove!
I have a 2016 defiant in my living room. The glass on my door fell out while it was burning one day. After using the stove and seeing all the issues people have with them I have come to this conclusion. It seems like these stoves are not holding up to hard use, they look beautiful but they seem like they are good for the person that burns a couple days in the winter. As for me, my stove burns for weeks non stop, so if i had to do it again I would get a Jotul.
I just installed a defiant two and one stove a couple of months ago. I have not experienced any of these problems. Even if I crack my ash door open to increase the air flow I have found it very difficult to get the stove above 500 degrees. I typically leave the flue open but have closed it and let the catalyst burn over-night. The burn time is increased but the temperature drops significantly when using catalyst. Taking the doors off and reinstalling them for cleaning does require a bit of attention to insure the hinge pins are securely in the hinge pin holes. Don't let go of the door until you are sure the hinge pins are securely in the holes! Like you, I installed mine myself and can't believe VC would expect the typical consumer to hire an installer, it is not that difficult. Hopefully they have changed their warranty! Overall I am very satisfied with the Defiant.
ugh! I was looking into the new defiant to replace my old. Over 20 years with my Defiant 1910 and love it. It's getting old. The refractory assembly is getting worn out but still ok. I see the new Defiant has those delicate ceramic plates and my first thoughts were WTH! Why would they do this? Those plates must break often! My old 1910 model has a cast iron back wall and 5 sacrificial ceramic bricks to protect the combuster/refractory/catalytic assembly. Got 20+ years out of those bricks...just bought replacements today for $40. Anyway, time to take my ad off Craigslist and tell the folks interested in my old stove that "I'M KEEPING IT!!" Not sure I will go with the new Defiant now. I love vermont castings top loading. I could have 10 inches of glowing coals and just toss another few logs on top. I've had glowing coals for weeks without cleaning the the ash. I guess I'll have this season to decide if I'll sell and what to replace it with....maybe that blaze king
I assume this gentleman would know enough about VC stoves to check and make certain the outside air plate was in place or if it has been removed. If not (and the plate is off because the dealer had set it up for modern air-tight homes) this would most certainly explain what's happening here. Replace the plate (if missing) and Voila! He seems smart enough to know to check - but did he?
@@mountainfunguy5657 It's a small (~3"x6"+-) plate bolted to the back of the stove, near the bottom. It's used to funnel outside air, via an installed air duct, to the stove in modern, super air-tight homes. The stove should come with the plate bolted on and only be removed by a contractor, or installer connecting the stove to the air duct. If this is not in place and left open, an uncontrolled amount of air could enter the stove making it difficult to control. Or, that's the theory, anyway. My stove came with this plate firmly bolted in place and has never been removed. I've never had any problem with our stove, controlling it's air-intake via the air lever on the right-hand side.
I got the exact same stove in 03 the very first thing I did was take that Catalyst that you pointed out and chunked it as far as I could been running the stove for 17 years without a hitch
Purchased a new Defiant 2n1 model 1975 in 2012. Burning 4 cords per year of 1-2 year seasoned hard wood, 24/7 in the winter. I have experienced these issues exactly, thans for making this video. Now on my third refractory, yes it requires a total teardown and rebuild. Eats cats like candy 2 year life at best. I love the features of this stove and it looks great, but the burn is terrible. Never again will I purchase a new Vermont Castings.
Got rid of mine to but before I did any damage to it. The Encore used a thermostatic secondary air control . The flexburn has a 1 1/2 inch hole in the back bottom of the stove NO CONTROL wide open ! this air enters through the small holes at the bottom back of the stove where it mixes with smoke then goes to the catalyst . At least that's the theory. In practice however there is nothing to stop this air from going into the main fire when you cut the main air control. I had thought of fashioning a small stainless steel baffle to direct the air UP into the the cat chamber. Had a hard time getting a over night burn . no coals left . I am now looking at a Blaze King . it has both catalytic burn and thermostatic control for long burn time. or a Lopi Rockport
probably to late but I went the blazeking route and am quite happy with it. Have several friends who went that way too, none of us have issues with our stoves despite only having Sappy Spruce tree's t o burn and none of us takes particular care to burn only seasoned wood. We accept that it is less efficient, but the stove does not care, as long as the cat is in its operating range and you let it burn hot for the first 30 minutes after the cat is in its active range the cat pretty much self cleans. The only negative I have with this is clean my chimney more frequently. But I just do not have enough land to dedicate to seasoning more than 4 cords of firewood at a time, so thats the trade off. Blazeking stoves are pretty robust and problem free.
Very helpful! Was considering a Vermont Castings over a Jotul (never had anything else) simply because I wanted enamel. It doesn't sound like it's worth it.
Same problems. Two new Flexburn Encores. BOTH overfired since the "thermostatic air control did not work. The dealer took both stoves back and refunded the full cost. We had used 5 VC stoves since the early 80's without ANY problems.
I was planning on getting one to install upstairs on my mainfloor to not just be a functional stove but to be something that looks good too. I think I'll look at the competition. Meanwhile my basement Blazeking Ashford doesn't have any issues at all, actually all of my friends that have blazeking Cat stoves have been entirely problem free, you just need to remember when starting them let them heat up into c atalytic range, engage it, then run the stove full open for 20-30 minutes, then damper down. That 20-30 minutes full open is to get the cat fully heated up and it also helps clean any soot that may have built up on the cat off of it. If you do that you wont have so much to clean up when you do your standard maintenance (clean chimney / scrub cat with toothbrush if it looks dirty / sooty.) every few months.)
Old style defiant stoves(non-catalytic) are beasts. Try not to over fire it and it will last a long long time. May not reach the efficiency of these new stoves but its still a solid option.
Bought one from the plant in Randolph in 1978, hard to beat. Liked it so much I bought a used one with cracked backplate. The rebuild was straight forward. Sold both with the house when I left Connecticut. They went 16 years. Got that "Encore" now; it can't compare to the old defiant
We purchased a VC Defiant in November, and “babysitting” is a perfect term . We are very careful not to let the temperatures get to high. Last night we gave it a cleaning and checked to see how the catalyst was doing. We were shocked to find it broken into pieces! We are very disappointed with this stove. It burns our wood way too fast , all the time, even turned right down and with catalyst on. The catalyst was not clogged at all, just shattered! Has that happened to you? We are hoping it is safe to use even without the catalyst part, because the next few days will be -30 to -40 with the windchill, and it is our only source of heat. We are going to phone the place we purchased it today, but do you know if the warranty allows you to replace it with a different stove, granted it was installed by technician who was WETT certified? Thanks for your video!!!!!!
I have an encore 2550 which is catalytic but not one of the newer "flex burn" models. I don't know if its because the 2550 secondary burn chamber is refractory instead of firebrick, but I am able to achieve temps up to 1600 without damaging the cat or burn chamber. The catalytic converter, is double the size of the flexburn one as well, if thats a possible reason Over-firing that I would worry about according to my probe temps would be over 1700 which, from the couple times I have witnessed it happen, is usually in the low 1700's. I know this is two years too late but have you considered too much draft? My stove's setup has 2 90's on a 6" liner about 24' from stove top, which seems work well. Are you using an 8" liner?
Thank you for posting this! I almost bought one, but not without research first. If anyone knows wood stoves it should be you guys in Canada. What brands do you recommend? I only have experience with a Buck 74. Thanks again
Couldn't afford a new VC so bought Quadrafire Isle Royale for $900 on craigslist. Non-cat, huge 3.0 cf firebox, clean burning. No need to pay for replacing cat. Looks a lot like the Defiant.
Thank you. Tube secondary burners seem to be very efficient. I was wondering about the flex, but it sounds like a complicated and dangerous system. Too bad they only offer flex and catalytic. Thankfully there are American made steel tube stoves (at a fraction of the price )that made the epa data sheet at >= 75% efficient. I wonder if the cast iron VC Aspen C3 log burner would be better engineered?
I regret buying vermont castings. I waste a lot of time rebuilding and trying to keep it working. The place I bought it from just laughed when I asked if it would have any trade in value toward a different brand of stove. Worked fine a couple years, then it has just been a headache ever since.
Oh crap October ‘24 replaced a 1993 Encore with a new Encore. Haven’t fired it up yet. the old one had warped and cracked over the 30 years and just didnt burn as long. I’ll post my experience as we get into the 24-25 winter. It doesn’t say Flexburn through. However the Dauntless and Intrepid do claim to have Flexburn
Isn't that just unbelievable? That you pay a fortune for a fancy stove but are now reticent to put more than 2 logs in at a time. I hope you live in a southern state somewhere!!!
...so have you heard anything about the non-cat Defiant? I bought one new years ago and it has yet to be fired up as my new house has been on hold for a few years...
Hi Dale, we have used Defiant stoves in two homes for about 25+ years. I was considering purchasing one for our new home. Is it possible for me to NOT know the stove was damaged? We loved it and used it all the time in chilly temps. I do know I got it very hot many times.. Even had to open windows to let some heat out of the house. I am not a home builder even though we have subbed out the building.. We even installed the last stove ourselves, but do not consider ourselves as versed in the stoves as you are. We rarely monitored the temp.
Thanks for the informative video Dale. One question I had was whether these stoves have the fan kit on them, and if you believe having or not having the fan kit would make any noticeable/measurable difference with the problem? Thanks again for your thorough review and investigation.
They both have fan kits, and being a bottom burning stove, it is better for heat transfer. However, it made no difference in either of these stoves in over-firing the secondary and destroying combustors.
The look of your ceramic cover is a proof that your stove has been constantly overheated. 500 to 600°F is enormous. Full cast iron stove are made to function between 400 and 500 F. Of course sometimes the temperature can rise even above 600 but this should be avoided and should not last.
Thanks for our input, you mention nothing about the fuel you are using. I read in the manual that you could not use wood below a certain moisture point, but that was in an up to date manual. With following another parties advice in fuel, lots of people say 'dryer the better'. But with engineer measure in place to maximize burn you could do damaged buy not following the manufactures direction. I bought a defiant and don't take possession tell march 2022. But I am going to run it according the manual and have it install by a WET certified installer and go one step further and have it operated by a power engineer. I like the idea of having the temp read out at the secondary combustor to let you know if you are doing damage. How many people actual do a moister test on their fuel?
seems needlessly complicated and fragile when you could just get a blaze king catalytic stove that doesn't really care at all about how wet or dry the wood is. The only thing it requires of you is that you let the cat get warm enough before engaging it and then you let it run as hot as possible for the first 20 -30 minutes to burn / clean any residual soot off / out of the cat. I live in an area where I do not have hardwood available just spruce, and I cannot season anymore than 4 cords of wood per year due to my limited property size. So far no issues, I just clean my chimney 3 times a year and even that is probably not necessary given the tiny amount of creosote that I am finding. Friend of mine has a King that he has been running for a decade same circumstances zero issues with the cat or overheating.
@@BType13X2both brands operate similarly. Burning wood is the most complicated/dangerous way to heat your house. I'm not sure how a cast iron stove is fragile. Having a chemical reaction that boost the temp to double the burn temp of wood , is called over firing your stove. There is not a lot of material that can't withstand that temp. If you don't follow the manufacturer instructions you could have serious issues. Sounds like you're not dealing with overly dry wood, seeing how you say it's only been seasoned for a year.Try burning wood with zero moisture and see how hot your catalytic converter gets. In the burn king manual it says not to over fire your stove, not to use processed wood and not to load the stove with kindling. The outtake I took from the video is i have to harvest wood every year. So I am burning in the correct moisture range Before watching this video I was thinking of doing once every 5 years and renting machinery to make everything easier. I have like 165 acres of trees. One thing I noticed with my defiance stove is the oval to round adapter has gaps in it where I can see light, and is a source of excess O2 which is not a good thing. Hopefully the new part arrives soon. I wouldn't recommend a Vermont casting stove because I've had some issues with parts not fitting correctly. And the new part that they brought in doesn't match my stove colour. I had a horrible experience with the wet workers. If I was to hire wet workers again I'd expect them to have a red seal trades ticket of some type.
This is Dale Hilderbrand in Washington State and I have already ordered a Defiant to replace my old huge Fire View barrel type end loader. I’m a mechanical engineer and wish I would have seen this review earlier. It was either the Quadrafire 4300 or this Defiant. I never liked the idea of a catalytic converter stove but it looked like it could have also been run without the unit installed as then a second fire rather than third fire. The wife liked the looks so we ordered it over my choice of the Quadrafire. Seems like I should cancel the order and go back to my first choice. Nice video. Any thoughts on the second burn issue over third burn?
Should probably do it. I can get insane burn times on my 3100 from 93... With a inch layer of ash coals from a load of wood last all night to start splits in the morning.
Cat stoves are not the problem , the issue is with these VC stoves. I installed a Blaze King Ashford with a Cat in it, I don't have the luxury of burning seasoned wood or even hardwood. In my area it is nothing but spruce and the only wood I can burn that is seasoned is the first 4 cords per year. The Ashford doesn't care, the cat looks as good as the day I got it, all I have to do is let the stove heat up until its in catalytic range, engage it and then let if burn full bore for about 20-30 minutes to clean any residual soot from the cat and leave it be. This is something you only have to do when refiiring the stove something that I only do every few weeks. ( I never put out the fire, just reload the stove and dump the ashes.) A friend of mine has a Blazeking King, same story. He has had the same Cat in his stove for a decade no issues at all. There are people who have princesses and earlier blazeking Cat stoves who are still on their original cat from 20 years ago. As long as you follow those steps on start up and they are really easy steps you shouldn't have any issues.
Man I got an intrepid flex burn was recently installed and am about to install the combustor I picked up from Condar. Now I am worried. What would cause the secondary to "overfire'?
What do you know about this Vermont Stove-- "The Dauntess- This stove is essentially the exact same stove as the intrepid except slightly bigger, It is also available in all 5 colors, and catalytic is not standard here either as it is not required. This stove will heat up to 2,000 sq ft." There is no catalytic in this one, unless you want one, which I don't. Do you believe they would be a good stove without the catalytic option? thanks, -Chris
Hello, I noticed vermont casting doesn't show the defiant or encore as being flexburn but the dauntless and intrepid are. Did they do away with this feature?
What a nightmare. You made the right decision for grandma. The Enviro Boston is an excellent choice and should be trouble free for many years. Is that what you chose to replace the Defiant too?
No. I didn't think the Enviro 1700 would be large enough for my house due to square footage. I replaced the Defiant with a Drolet Legend II. So far, so good, but I do miss the top load of the Defiant and the Encore. The price point was much more reasonable as well. It's not as pretty, but it works!!
That's a reasonable choice, though the Enviro Boston 1700 is only a little smaller. It would also do the job and is frugal with wood as well as a good looker. Drolet makes great simple stoves. It should do the job well for many years to come and for a whole lot less cost and hassle.
I know this is late.Yyou are running your stove to hot. If you run with with a catalytic converter in your not supposed to run your stove over 500F and thats on the stove top. The flue should not be getting over 700-800 degrees. 1400 degrees is super hot and not good for cast iron. Also you do not have to use the catalytic converter. You can remove it. Simple. Instead of ranting about it learn how to use it properly.
Your wood is too wet. Get a moisture meter and check your wood. This is a clear sign of wet wood. The proper moisture content is 9% to 14%. Split your wood and check it from the interior. If the wood is too dry, this can happen as well.
Does anyone know if Vermont Castings addressed or corrected this issue with their 2020 stove models? I understand there was a significant redesign effort to meet increasing EPA emissions standards in America beginning in 2019-2020.
If you look at the parts list, part numbers for the catalytic section (refractory pieces) are the same between the flexburn and 2021 cat-c model numbers.
@@jasonsherwood5262 Which would lead one to assume (always dangerous) that there were no essential changes in the Defiant despite it now no longer being listed as a Flex burn stove. Interesting.
@@mic982 I only looked at the refractory pieces a few weeks ago when I was pricing out those parts but I wouldn't be surprised at all if the 2040-cat-c and 2040 flex are identical. manuals w/ part numbers can easily be found online. The 2040 flex does not meet 75+% efficiency without the cat for the 2021 26% tax credit. Selling it only with the cat would make it eligible. Both meet the emissions standards of I believe 2g/hour.
@@jasonsherwood5262 Well, it's kinda what the dealer told me: WITH the catalyst the older stoves meet spec. Without the catalyst, they no longer do. At least, this applies to the Defiant and Encore models. The Intrepid models are still advertised as Flexburn meaning (I guess) they still meet the new specs, with or without the catalyst in place.
You sound overqualified to install your own stove you probably took many extra steps to assure a solid installation as I have. I am on my second Dutchwest Federal Airtight that I bought used for $300. I don’t understand the purpose of a top load stove however?
Yeah good man for making this video. I have a 1979 buck 27000 stove. She's a old smoke dragon which I do not like but she's an extremely reliable warrior that will burn as I tell her to. Unacceptable your experience that big business just spit on you. We the people are now spitting on them the fckn honorless dirt bags. Myself, nor a single one of my friends or family will be allowed to purchase any of these stoves. Shame on you Vermont castings
Very sorry to hear this. I have had a Defiant Encore (in beautiful red enamel) since 1996 and its been problem free. Since the 90's, the company has been sold a few times and it has definitely impacted quality, no question about it. Hence, many long time dealers fled. Prior to 1996, I had a problem free Intrepid. Unfortunately, not the same company it once was with original ownership. I have since heard the original owner was sorry for selling. Today, I would buy Jotul but would severely miss the top load feature and beauty of Vermont Castings.
Hi...I am not sure. What I do know is that I have a 1988 Defiant Encore before they broke the two into two models..the Defiant (my size) and the Encore (now the biggest size Vermont Castings. I bought it before the company was sold a few times and quality issues surfaced as many dealers / former dealers and customers have shared over the years. I still love my stove and its in perfect condition as I have always baby it. We also only use it on weekends for a little extra heat and ambiance, which I think helps in the longevity. This stove will last my lifetime. I can’t ask fkr more than that. All the best with yours!
I only use the cat when the stove reaches 500 degrees. I also rarely exceed 650 degrees. I’ve never had a problem in 25 years. Some people just run their stoves too hot and issues ensue..I have heard this several times from our trusted VC maintenance guy.
Bought an Encore model, had almost a year. Vermont Casting is NOT the quality it used to be since the company was bought out. Literally falling apart. 100% NO support if you try to contact the company, not even an email contact. Insulation, glass on door fall off as they are poorly attached. The bypass lever on the right side does not work properly. Almost all the nuts, bolts, screws were loose when I received it. Buyer beware, they are just throwing theses stoves together as fast and cheap and expensive as possible.
Sounds like a lot of bias, anti-American review. I have never had the problems you talked about "over heating." It sounds and looks like you are having one stove to do the job of two. Here in Minnesota have have hard winter's and with my house, around 2700sq ft, we have three stoves to properly heat our house.
Anti-American bias??? At one time it was owned by the Canadian teachers pension fund before that it was owned by a Japanese company hasn't been owned by an American company for quite some time and that's the problem keeps getting sold and they're just trying to keep the shareholders happy and not the customers!!!
I have a flex burn defiant made in 2018 it's an excellent wood stove we love it burn it all year long.i mostly burn without the cat because I burn not so great wood even without the cat it still easy on wood.this guy dosnt know what he's doing.
I wrote to the company in Randolph after all these problems, but never got an answer, then phoned to them and was told a long story of no use, it was as if I was using the stove wrong. As a company you have a "single shot in the rifle" so to speak and if the costumers trust is lost forever, then the only thing to do is to close the business. The company went out of business some years after. The decorations and general design is very fine, but there seems to be a lack off how combustion really works, there is a line of other stoves where the combustion is taking place at lower combustion chamber and the smoke burns here much better. There is also a high-end gasification cooker: Pertinger that cooks you food, heat the house by central heating ang prepares alle the hot was you need. Have a look at: Pertinger Sturzbrand-Heizungsherd - UA-cam. Have a look here at You tube seach for "gasification stoves", - it will impress you! HM.
I have been heating with Vermont Casting stoves for over 40 years, starting with the original Defiant and Vigilant in the late 70s bought directly from the foundry in Randolph Vermont and now with two 90s vintage Defiant Encores bought used, both forest green. Every year I say thanks to Duncan Syme for designing these excellent stoves. It is sad to hear of your experience with these flex burn models; I have not experienced any of these problems with my 90s Defiant Encores and while I bought one with a broken liner for the catalytic combustor which I replaced, I have not had to replace either combuster or had any overheat problems in that area even though the stoves have sometimes reached as high as 900 degrees F on the top plate.
Thank you Dale for your video. On Saturday I put a large deposit down on two Vermont Castings stoves. The fact that they weaseled out of the warranty claim is absolutely appalling and was absolutely reason enough for me to get my deposit back and continue with my research before buying. In my opinion, any company that looks for excuses not to honor their written contract is not a company I’m comfortable in supporting. When it comes down to it , a warranty is only as good as the company that wrote it. Thank you again for taking the time to so methodically explain your situation! It is deeply appreciated.
Thank You for making this video. I thought I was the only one with this problem. On my second Encore and am now convinced when the time comes, I will replace with another brand. Thank God for JP Chimney of Gardiner NY who has been VERY helpful along the way.
Thank you Dale for your video. And I thought I was the only one with this problem. I have had my Encore flex burn for one year and one month as of today. I am on my 6th combustor. After I returned two combustors to Midwest Hearth, they reached out to me and told me they wouldn't replace any more of them. Vermont castings has also replaced two catalysts. I am now purchasing them knowing nobody will warrant them. I was a way from wood burning for many years but this is the third Vermont casting stove that we've had. Originally, we had models from the early 1990s that worked perfectly with the circular cumbusters and never had any problem probably because the combustor was located above the firebox and not at the bottom of the firebox. This is a poorly designed stove and can be very dangerous. I have read some of the comments in which VC dealers state that the would being burned is either too wet or too dry. They always pass the buck on to the customer. Do you know of any other stove manufacturer that only gives you about a 6-month window of perfectly seasoned wood that is not too wet or too dry. Please, trust me and trust Dale on this matter. Don't purchase any stove unit from Vermont castings. At a minimum, you may have the same issues that we are dealing with, or worse.
Vermont castings PR department failed to do the calculus on how many stove sales they'd lose by denying your warranty claim. I see 23,281 views here even if 1% would have purchased that's 23 lost sales. Thanks for sharing your hard luck experience with Vermont Castings, it has likely saved others from having the same negative experience.
The store where you bought the stove from is supposed to handle the warranty. VC will replace the interior for free if this happens to first time. I have been a VC dealer for 12 years now and have been a wood stove tech for 35 years. This is brought on by wet wood or over seasoned wood. It doesn't matter who made the stove, garbage in, garbage out. Get a moisture meter!
@@thefirehousestoveshoppe48 Doesn't matter company failed to interact with customer well, honor warranty, and it equals lost sales by other possible customers. Vermont Castings flexburn isn't even on my list of considerations for stoves now. Did you watch the video??! You make assertions you can't even possibly know so there's zero reason to trust you. That type of behavior makes me want to stay away from any VC dealer as well. The guy who shot this is a HERO for letting us know his *Real World* experience. But by all means tell the Canadian who built his own home that he doesn't know how to select properly cured wood.
@@thefirehousestoveshoppe48 This response is presumptive and arrogant. You have no data to back up your dismissive reply. I bet that’s the response I would get from a VC salesman despite the reality of a faulty product. Blame the customer eh? Bad business model! Yet another reason to run from VC stoves.
His video has made me think twice about buying this.
@@anymor7609 Putting I have a Blazeking Ashford in my home I have never had the chance to burn properly seasoned wood, because I don't have acres of land. I live in a city, I can at most have 3-4 cords of firewood stored on my property at a time. The ashford is a catalytic stove, it has no issues at all with burning it, the cat looks as good as the day I bought it, the only thing I need to do is when refiring the stove after cleaning it out is let the cat get into range and then let the stove burn for as hot as it wants (draft full open) for about 30 minutes. I clean my chimney 3 times during the winter and remove minimal creosote, but better safe then sorry.
Again burning none seasoned Spruce that often has sap / pitch leaking from it. Friend has a Blazeking King in his house same story. If Vermont Castings stoves are this fragile that they can only burn wood in a certain range before they self destruct then I will not be putting one upstairs in my house even though I wanted a 2nd decorative stove. I'll go with a competitor.
Thanks for this! And not to be judgmental however looking at how clean your stove is and how beautiful your home is makes me think you take care of your things well and therefore eliminates any question of user error. With that said I do not want to worry about loading a stove and falling asleep, or going to work and having a runaway fire
Just because someone is licensed doesn’t mean they take pride or extra measures to do a top notch installation. Its a warranty scapegoat cause if you do a poor installation the stove will be the least of your worries. Man’s lucky it didn’t burn the house up while sleeping.
@@tc96z1 it was the stove though.
Thanks for the heads up, was looking at an Encore for a new build, guess I'll move on.
I appreciate the thoroughness of your review and the explanation behind what went wrong. I'm so lost on the inner workings of the secondary chamber, the whole thing is a mystery to me. Our stove came with the house when we bought it, and learning how to work with it has been a challenge. I've come to understand that other woodburning stoves, though less beautiful, are much simpler and much less delicate to work with.
Interesting that the new VC Encores warranties their combustors for 6 years and the Flexburn system has a lifetime limited warranty. I wonder if they have solved the design problem you experienced. See page 4 of the Encore Model 2040-CAT-C Owners operating manual. I've been burning the Vermont casting XL Dutchwest 2466(cat stove) since 1991 flawlessly. I've probably burned 100 cord through it over the past 30 years and it's been amazing. I'm thinking of trying the new Encore and I appreciate you sharing your experience. I understand the new models are a redesign.
@@Scott-dn1bk How do you know they haven't solved anything? I purchased the Vermont Casting Encore and installed it in January 2022. I've only burned it for a few months now and probably 2 cords of wood, but I've been very pleased with the performance. Purchase and installation support with my local dealer has been superb. I guess I'm 3 for 3 with VC Cat stoves. They have all been outstanding over the past 30+ years and have over 100 cords of wood.
Very good video. Just installed new intrepid. Wish I had never seen it. Have woke up twice to the sound of smoke alarms blaring. Our complaints are falling on deaf ears,from both the manufacturer and the stove dealership. Wish I had seen your video before our purchase.
I've had the Encore Flexburn for 5 years now with no issues. You can't beat it's top load function, outdoor air kit, and looks. As a kid I grew up with a side-load stove, and coals were always jumping out at you, and rolling to the floor, burning it. You just cant state the loading efficiency, capacity, and safety of a top load stove. I will be buying another for our new house we're building.
I have a Resolute stove from the early 80's and was interested in a cheery enamel Vermont Castings stove. My house is in Vermont after all! I hear you loud and clear, and am dismayed by their dismal failures and customer support services. I won't risk it! I had noticed that the wood stove vendors nearest to me don't list Vermont Castings and now I guess I know why. I wonder if you always kept your cool dealing with these problems as you did on You Tube in describing the history of your experience. On behalf of Vermont, I am very sorry!
Thanks for this review. I bought a VC Encore in 1999 and kept eating through catalysts. Went to a Hearthstone and love it. Looking at the Intrepid Flexburn for an addition. Top loading and ash pan are awesome. The catalysts are an option, so if I decide on VC again, won't get the catalyst.
Thank you very informative . Have been looking at VC Defiant, Encore, Intrepid Flexburns, Jotuls and BK's. Thanks for narrowing down my choices to Jotul and/or BK.
Excellent post, I did get a used VC wood stove for our cottage but I had heard about issues with their catalytics so we got one with the alternate reburner system. Hopefully it will not cause us any issues.
Vermont Castings has had a terrible customer service record for a very long time now, it’s too bad really.
They heat well, but ours is also very frustrating. Thanks for sharing your experience Dale.
Thank you for this video. I was planning to buy a Vermont stove but now I will look at other options
You are quite right! We had many years ago a non - cathalythic resolute, it came with a tag saying: "Tested for airseal" but it wasn't tested at all! The top around the top filling chute door was not flat and smoke came out into the living room causing constant demand for cleaning. A new top send as a replacement, but I had to install it myself. -Porcelain handle broke after a while due to opening the front doors and a brass one machined by a friend overcame this problem.
The side mesh shelfs had different profile not corresponding with the stove, I realized that the stove range all had different top-corner profile, but only one type at the shelfs. The underside flaps for the Allen screws are far too flimsy and they broke off in normal use.
A coalburning grate set wasn't much better; when using the shaker grate coalpieces blocked the movement and eventually lifted the furnace sidepanels and after sometime the firebars "bent downwards" and of no use. Firebars must be of a special heat resitant alloy capable of dealing with the intense heat, but here its not!!
We have allways used powerdry wood, but the way the secondary combustion chamber was designed it didn't work properly as it is too cold and the otherwise combustible smoke wnet up in the chimney to no use. In fact the was heavy deposits in the chimney and the chimneysweeper said that all theese stoves have the same problem: ie risk of fire in the chimney.
There is people here on You tube that for good reasons complains about the Aspen C3 stove, where the airchannels inside it is filled with too much heat resistent cement, blocking the air to the combustion and producing unwanted smoke and less heat.
My father bought an Intrepid, here the cast iron combustion chamber slowly deterioated after 2 seasons, consequently this was the last Vermont stove we bought and do not recomment it.
Use the Canadian Bullerjan tubestove or better the European Walltherm it can burn 5 hours without refueling, as the wood gas represents 80% of the heat and it burns it with bluewhite flames all combustible stuff is burned and there is no smoke! The stove sends 30% of the heat to the room and the rest 70% through the central heating system, thus heating the house, heating your hot water and it will take 20kg fuel each time. The tecnology is far better, but have a look at www.Walltherm.com for details.
HM. marine engineer.
I had an Encore that was our primary source of heat and never had any issues. We would regularly get about 11 hour burns with it stuffed full and everything banked down.
Thank you for posting this. You've just prevented a sale to Vermont Castings for 8KUS. I hope I can find a suitable replacement.
This is a very valuable testimony, sir. Many thanks.
Well done. I have a Jotul V500 with the same issues. They say that the issue is the tall straight chimney I have, results in to much draft. I was thinking of replacing it with a Vermont Casting stove but sounds like I would have the same issue. They suggest adding a damper but won’t put it in writing so insurance won’t cover damage if a fire resulted. Does anyone make a stove that will not over fire with a long straight chimney ?
The earlier Defiants didn't have this problem. You can tell the difference by where you load/inspect the combustor. The one I have is in the rear. Great Stove!
Very informative and educational, thank you!
I have a 2016 defiant in my living room. The glass on my door fell out while it was burning one day. After using the stove and seeing all the issues people have with them I have come to this conclusion. It seems like these stoves are not holding up to hard use, they look beautiful but they seem like they are good for the person that burns a couple days in the winter. As for me, my stove burns for weeks non stop, so if i had to do it again I would get a Jotul.
I just installed a defiant two and one stove a couple of months ago. I have not experienced any of these problems. Even if I crack my ash door open to increase the air flow I have found it very difficult to get the stove above 500 degrees. I typically leave the flue open but have closed it and let the catalyst burn over-night. The burn time is increased but the temperature drops significantly when using catalyst. Taking the doors off and reinstalling them for cleaning does require a bit of attention to insure the hinge pins are securely in the hinge pin holes. Don't let go of the door until you are sure the hinge pins are securely in the holes! Like you, I installed mine myself and can't believe VC would expect the typical consumer to hire an installer, it is not that difficult. Hopefully they have changed their warranty! Overall I am very satisfied with the Defiant.
great video
ugh! I was looking into the new defiant to replace my old. Over 20 years with my Defiant 1910 and love it. It's getting old. The refractory assembly is getting worn out but still ok. I see the new Defiant has those delicate ceramic plates and my first thoughts were WTH! Why would they do this? Those plates must break often! My old 1910 model has a cast iron back wall and 5 sacrificial ceramic bricks to protect the combuster/refractory/catalytic assembly. Got 20+ years out of those bricks...just bought replacements today for $40. Anyway, time to take my ad off Craigslist and tell the folks interested in my old stove that "I'M KEEPING IT!!" Not sure I will go with the new Defiant now. I love vermont castings top loading. I could have 10 inches of glowing coals and just toss another few logs on top. I've had glowing coals for weeks without cleaning the the ash. I guess I'll have this season to decide if I'll sell and what to replace it with....maybe that blaze king
I assume this gentleman would know enough about VC stoves to check and make certain the outside air plate was in place or if it has been removed. If not (and the plate is off because the dealer had set it up for modern air-tight homes) this would most certainly explain what's happening here. Replace the plate (if missing) and Voila! He seems smart enough to know to check - but did he?
Tell me more about this air plate. I ordered a defiant but had not seen this review until now. I would like to avoid the same seemingly defiant issues
@@mountainfunguy5657 It's a small (~3"x6"+-) plate bolted to the back of the stove, near the bottom. It's used to funnel outside air, via an installed air duct, to the stove in modern, super air-tight homes. The stove should come with the plate bolted on and only be removed by a contractor, or installer connecting the stove to the air duct. If this is not in place and left open, an uncontrolled amount of air could enter the stove making it difficult to control. Or, that's the theory, anyway. My stove came with this plate firmly bolted in place and has never been removed. I've never had any problem with our stove, controlling it's air-intake via the air lever on the right-hand side.
@@mic982 Excellent point, Mic. Sure sounds like this might be the problem.
I got the exact same stove in 03 the very first thing I did was take that Catalyst that you pointed out and chunked it as far as I could been running the stove for 17 years without a hitch
This answers my question. But how does the second fire set up heat (rather than third fire catalytic?
Purchased a new Defiant 2n1 model 1975 in 2012. Burning 4 cords per year of 1-2 year seasoned hard wood, 24/7 in the winter. I have experienced these issues exactly, thans for making this video. Now on my third refractory, yes it requires a total teardown and rebuild. Eats cats like candy 2 year life at best. I love the features of this stove and it looks great, but the burn is terrible. Never again will I purchase a new Vermont Castings.
Got rid of mine to but before I did any damage to it. The Encore used a thermostatic secondary air control . The flexburn has a 1 1/2 inch hole in the back bottom of the stove NO CONTROL wide open ! this air enters through the small holes at the bottom back of the stove where it mixes with smoke then goes to the catalyst . At least that's the theory. In practice however there is nothing to stop this air from going into the main fire when you cut the main air control. I had thought of fashioning a small stainless steel baffle to direct the air UP into the the cat chamber. Had a hard time getting a over night burn . no coals left . I am now looking at a Blaze King . it has both catalytic burn and thermostatic control for long burn time. or a Lopi Rockport
probably to late but I went the blazeking route and am quite happy with it. Have several friends who went that way too, none of us have issues with our stoves despite only having Sappy Spruce tree's t o burn and none of us takes particular care to burn only seasoned wood. We accept that it is less efficient, but the stove does not care, as long as the cat is in its operating range and you let it burn hot for the first 30 minutes after the cat is in its active range the cat pretty much self cleans. The only negative I have with this is clean my chimney more frequently. But I just do not have enough land to dedicate to seasoning more than 4 cords of firewood at a time, so thats the trade off. Blazeking stoves are pretty robust and problem free.
Very helpful! Was considering a Vermont Castings over a Jotul (never had anything else) simply because I wanted enamel. It doesn't sound like it's worth it.
Same problems. Two new Flexburn Encores. BOTH overfired since the "thermostatic air control did not work. The dealer took both stoves back and refunded the full cost.
We had used 5 VC stoves since the early 80's without ANY problems.
I was planning on getting one to install upstairs on my mainfloor to not just be a functional stove but to be something that looks good too. I think I'll look at the competition. Meanwhile my basement Blazeking Ashford doesn't have any issues at all, actually all of my friends that have blazeking Cat stoves have been entirely problem free, you just need to remember when starting them let them heat up into c atalytic range, engage it, then run the stove full open for 20-30 minutes, then damper down. That 20-30 minutes full open is to get the cat fully heated up and it also helps clean any soot that may have built up on the cat off of it.
If you do that you wont have so much to clean up when you do your standard maintenance (clean chimney / scrub cat with toothbrush if it looks dirty / sooty.) every few months.)
Thanks for the warning.
Here in Europe one big mess too. No service and issues with cat. After 20 years switched to Jotul.
Old style defiant stoves(non-catalytic) are beasts. Try not to over fire it and it will last a long long time. May not reach the efficiency of these new stoves but its still a solid option.
Bought one from the plant in Randolph in 1978, hard to beat. Liked it so much I bought a used one with cracked backplate. The rebuild was straight forward. Sold both with the house when I left Connecticut. They went 16 years. Got that "Encore" now; it can't compare to the old defiant
We purchased a VC Defiant in November, and “babysitting” is a perfect term . We are very careful not to let the temperatures get to high. Last night we gave it a cleaning and checked to see how the catalyst was doing. We were shocked to find it broken into pieces! We are very disappointed with this stove. It burns our wood way too fast , all the time, even turned right down and with catalyst on. The catalyst was not clogged at all, just shattered! Has that happened to you? We are hoping it is safe to use even without the catalyst part, because the next few days will be -30 to -40 with the windchill, and it is our only source of heat. We are going to phone the place we purchased it today, but do you know if the warranty allows you to replace it with a different stove, granted it was installed by technician who was WETT certified? Thanks for your video!!!!!!
I have an encore 2550 which is catalytic but not one of the newer "flex burn" models. I don't know if its because the 2550 secondary burn chamber is refractory instead of firebrick, but I am able to achieve temps up to 1600 without damaging the cat or burn chamber. The catalytic converter, is double the size of the flexburn one as well, if thats a possible reason Over-firing that I would worry about according to my probe temps would be over 1700 which, from the couple times I have witnessed it happen, is usually in the low 1700's. I know this is two years too late but have you considered too much draft? My stove's setup has 2 90's on a 6" liner about 24' from stove top, which seems work well. Are you using an 8" liner?
Thank you for posting this! I almost bought one, but not without research first. If anyone knows wood stoves it should be you guys in Canada. What brands do you recommend? I only have experience with a Buck 74. Thanks again
Couldn't afford a new VC so bought Quadrafire Isle Royale for $900 on craigslist. Non-cat, huge 3.0 cf firebox, clean burning. No need to pay for replacing cat. Looks a lot like the Defiant.
Thanks for making this video en being honest about it.
thank you.. I almost purchased a flex burn on sale. Also what is the make & Model you recommend please ?
Thank you so much! You just saved us a lot of money!
Thank you. Tube secondary burners seem to be very efficient. I was wondering about the flex, but it sounds like a complicated and dangerous system. Too bad they only offer flex and catalytic. Thankfully there are American made steel tube stoves (at a fraction of the price )that made the epa data sheet at >= 75% efficient. I wonder if the cast iron VC Aspen C3 log burner would be better engineered?
OOhhh just saved me! Thank you!!!
I regret buying vermont castings. I waste a lot of time rebuilding and trying to keep it working. The place I bought it from just laughed when I asked if it would have any trade in value toward a different brand of stove. Worked fine a couple years, then it has just been a headache ever since.
Perhaps I missed your explanation, but what made you a fan of VC in the first place? All the best.
Oh crap October ‘24 replaced a 1993 Encore with a new Encore. Haven’t fired it up yet. the old one had warped and cracked over the 30 years and just didnt burn as long. I’ll post my experience as we get into the 24-25 winter. It doesn’t say Flexburn through. However the Dauntless and Intrepid do claim to have Flexburn
my defiant has done the same thing, overfire on the secondary. now im scared to load more than a couple logs at a time. 🥴
Isn't that just unbelievable? That you pay a fortune for a fancy stove but are now reticent to put more than 2 logs in at a time. I hope you live in a southern state somewhere!!!
it would be nice if you can advise which fireplace you would recommend, there is allot of mis information out there. Please tell us what you prefer.
...so have you heard anything about the non-cat Defiant? I bought one new years ago and it has yet to be fired up as my new house has been on hold for a few years...
You talked me out of buyng one as well. They look so much nicer than any other so I'm very disappointed.
Do you have any details on how you installed the condar system on this stove? The users manual online is very vague.
Hi Dale, we have used Defiant stoves in two homes for about 25+ years. I was considering purchasing one for our new home. Is it possible for me to NOT know the stove was damaged? We loved it and used it all the time in chilly temps. I do know I got it very hot many times.. Even had to open windows to let some heat out of the house. I am not a home builder even though we have subbed out the building.. We even installed the last stove ourselves, but do not consider ourselves as versed in the stoves as you are. We rarely monitored the temp.
The early stoves with rear loading combustor seem to not have these issues.
Thanks for the informative video Dale. One question I had was whether these stoves have the fan kit on them, and if you believe having or not having the fan kit would make any noticeable/measurable difference with the problem? Thanks again for your thorough review and investigation.
They both have fan kits, and being a bottom burning stove, it is better for heat transfer. However, it made no difference in either of these stoves in over-firing the secondary and destroying combustors.
The look of your ceramic cover is a proof that your stove has been constantly overheated. 500 to 600°F is enormous. Full cast iron stove are made to function between 400 and 500 F. Of course sometimes the temperature can rise even above 600 but this should be avoided and should not last.
Thanks for our input, you mention nothing about the fuel you are using. I read in the manual that you could not use wood below a certain moisture point, but that was in an up to date manual. With following another parties advice in fuel, lots of people say 'dryer the better'. But with engineer measure in place to maximize burn you could do damaged buy not following the manufactures direction. I bought a defiant and don't take possession tell march 2022. But I am going to run it according the manual and have it install by a WET certified installer and go one step further and have it operated by a power engineer. I like the idea of having the temp read out at the secondary combustor to let you know if you are doing damage. How many people actual do a moister test on their fuel?
seems needlessly complicated and fragile when you could just get a blaze king catalytic stove that doesn't really care at all about how wet or dry the wood is. The only thing it requires of you is that you let the cat get warm enough before engaging it and then you let it run as hot as possible for the first 20 -30 minutes to burn / clean any residual soot off / out of the cat.
I live in an area where I do not have hardwood available just spruce, and I cannot season anymore than 4 cords of wood per year due to my limited property size. So far no issues, I just clean my chimney 3 times a year and even that is probably not necessary given the tiny amount of creosote that I am finding. Friend of mine has a King that he has been running for a decade same circumstances zero issues with the cat or overheating.
@@BType13X2both brands operate similarly. Burning wood is the most complicated/dangerous way to heat your house. I'm not sure how a cast iron stove is fragile. Having a chemical reaction that boost the temp to double the burn temp of wood , is called over firing your stove. There is not a lot of material that can't withstand that temp. If you don't follow the manufacturer instructions you could have serious issues. Sounds like you're not dealing with overly dry wood, seeing how you say it's only been seasoned for a year.Try burning wood with zero moisture and see how hot your catalytic converter gets. In the burn king manual it says not to over fire your stove, not to use processed wood and not to load the stove with kindling. The outtake I took from the video is i have to harvest wood every year. So I am burning in the correct moisture range Before watching this video I was thinking of doing once every 5 years and renting machinery to make everything easier. I have like 165 acres of trees. One thing I noticed with my defiance stove is the oval to round adapter has gaps in it where I can see light, and is a source of excess O2 which is not a good thing. Hopefully the new part arrives soon. I wouldn't recommend a Vermont casting stove because I've had some issues with parts not fitting correctly. And the new part that they brought in doesn't match my stove colour. I had a horrible experience with the wet workers. If I was to hire wet workers again I'd expect them to have a red seal trades ticket of some type.
thx for this video, I was just thinking about buying one.
This is Dale Hilderbrand in Washington State and I have already ordered a Defiant to replace my old huge Fire View barrel type end loader. I’m a mechanical engineer and wish I would have seen this review earlier. It was either the Quadrafire 4300 or this Defiant. I never liked the idea of a catalytic converter stove but it looked like it could have also been run without the unit installed as then a second fire rather than third fire. The wife liked the looks so we ordered it over my choice of the Quadrafire. Seems like I should cancel the order and go back to my first choice. Nice video. Any thoughts on the second burn issue over third burn?
Should probably do it. I can get insane burn times on my 3100 from 93... With a inch layer of ash coals from a load of wood last all night to start splits in the morning.
Cat stoves are not the problem , the issue is with these VC stoves. I installed a Blaze King Ashford with a Cat in it, I don't have the luxury of burning seasoned wood or even hardwood. In my area it is nothing but spruce and the only wood I can burn that is seasoned is the first 4 cords per year. The Ashford doesn't care, the cat looks as good as the day I got it, all I have to do is let the stove heat up until its in catalytic range, engage it and then let if burn full bore for about 20-30 minutes to clean any residual soot from the cat and leave it be. This is something you only have to do when refiiring the stove something that I only do every few weeks. ( I never put out the fire, just reload the stove and dump the ashes.)
A friend of mine has a Blazeking King, same story. He has had the same Cat in his stove for a decade no issues at all. There are people who have princesses and earlier blazeking Cat stoves who are still on their original cat from 20 years ago. As long as you follow those steps on start up and they are really easy steps you shouldn't have any issues.
Saved me a bundle from being dooped. Thanks!
Man I got an intrepid flex burn was recently installed and am about to install the combustor I picked up from Condar. Now I am worried. What would cause the secondary to "overfire'?
What do you know about this Vermont Stove-- "The Dauntess- This stove is essentially the exact same stove as the intrepid except slightly bigger, It is also available in all 5 colors, and catalytic is not standard here either as it is not required. This stove will heat up to 2,000 sq ft." There is no catalytic in this one, unless you want one, which I don't. Do you believe they would be a good stove without the catalytic option? thanks, -Chris
I ordered one of these also and I am curious to know the answer to this question also.
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Hey Dale, you going to do a mid season review of the new stoves?
Not presently. Would like to wait and assess another year or two, to make a fair and accurate review.
Hello, I noticed vermont casting doesn't show the defiant or encore as being flexburn but the dauntless and intrepid are. Did they do away with this feature?
I think my defiant that is still on order as of yesterday is a flexburn
For the money they charge for these stoves ,they should make it right.
Great video - both information and your presentation. It scared my off of Encore!
What a nightmare. You made the right decision for grandma. The Enviro Boston is an excellent choice and should be trouble free for many years. Is that what you chose to replace the Defiant too?
No. I didn't think the Enviro 1700 would be large enough for my house due to square footage. I replaced the Defiant with a Drolet Legend II. So far, so good, but I do miss the top load of the Defiant and the Encore. The price point was much more reasonable as well. It's not as pretty, but it works!!
That's a reasonable choice, though the Enviro Boston 1700 is only a little smaller. It would also do the job and is frugal with wood as well as a good looker. Drolet makes great simple stoves. It should do the job well for many years to come and for a whole lot less cost and hassle.
Thank you for making this video
Vey helpful also talked me out of buying one
difference with a stove jøtul?
I know this is late.Yyou are running your stove to hot. If you run with with a catalytic converter in your not supposed to run your stove over 500F and thats on the stove top. The flue should not be getting over 700-800 degrees. 1400 degrees is super hot and not good for cast iron. Also you do not have to use the catalytic converter. You can remove it. Simple. Instead of ranting about it learn how to use it properly.
Is this a problem with the catalyst unit removed?
Your wood is too wet. Get a moisture meter and check your wood. This is a clear sign of wet wood. The proper moisture content is 9% to 14%. Split your wood and check it from the interior. If the wood is too dry, this can happen as well.
Everywhere I've read says 20%.
Does anyone know if Vermont Castings addressed or corrected this issue with their 2020 stove models? I understand there was a significant redesign effort to meet increasing EPA emissions standards in America beginning in 2019-2020.
If you look at the parts list, part numbers for the catalytic section (refractory pieces) are the same between the flexburn and 2021 cat-c model numbers.
@@jasonsherwood5262 Which would lead one to assume (always dangerous) that there were no essential changes in the Defiant despite it now no longer being listed as a Flex burn stove. Interesting.
@@mic982 I only looked at the refractory pieces a few weeks ago when I was pricing out those parts but I wouldn't be surprised at all if the 2040-cat-c and 2040 flex are identical. manuals w/ part numbers can easily be found online. The 2040 flex does not meet 75+% efficiency without the cat for the 2021 26% tax credit. Selling it only with the cat would make it eligible. Both meet the emissions standards of I believe 2g/hour.
@@jasonsherwood5262 Well, it's kinda what the dealer told me: WITH the catalyst the older stoves meet spec. Without the catalyst, they no longer do. At least, this applies to the Defiant and Encore models. The Intrepid models are still advertised as Flexburn meaning (I guess) they still meet the new specs, with or without the catalyst in place.
Install a propane heater? It's Canada nothing is going on up there anyway. Sue them.
You sound overqualified to install your own stove you probably took many extra steps to assure a solid installation as I have. I am on my second Dutchwest Federal Airtight that I bought used for $300. I don’t understand the purpose of a top load stove however?
Yeah good man for making this video. I have a 1979 buck 27000 stove. She's a old smoke dragon which I do not like but she's an extremely reliable warrior that will burn as I tell her to. Unacceptable your experience that big business just spit on you. We the people are now spitting on them the fckn honorless dirt bags. Myself, nor a single one of my friends or family will be allowed to purchase any of these stoves. Shame on you Vermont castings
I wish I'd seen this before I forked out $5k a couple weeks ago.
Just bought a VC dauntless flex burn. Nothing but problems so far.
Very sorry to hear this. I have had a Defiant Encore (in beautiful red enamel) since 1996 and its been problem free. Since the 90's, the company has been sold a few times and it has definitely impacted quality, no question about it. Hence, many long time dealers fled.
Prior to 1996, I had a problem free Intrepid.
Unfortunately, not the same company it once was with original ownership. I have since heard the original owner was sorry for selling.
Today, I would buy Jotul but would severely miss the top load feature and beauty of Vermont Castings.
Would you mind posting the date code on the back of your stove? I just bought one with a date code 0919. I think it might be from 1991. not sure.
Does yours have the rear access plate for the combustor? What model is it?
Hi...I am not sure. What I do know is that I have a 1988 Defiant Encore before they broke the two into two models..the Defiant (my size) and the Encore (now the biggest size Vermont Castings. I bought it before the company was sold a few times and quality issues surfaced as many dealers / former dealers and customers have shared over the years.
I still love my stove and its in perfect condition as I have always baby it. We also only use it on weekends for a little extra heat and ambiance, which I think helps in the longevity. This stove will last my lifetime. I can’t ask fkr more than that. All the best with yours!
Oops.....My stove is a 1996, ,not 1988 as previously incorrectly mentioned.
I only use the cat when the stove reaches 500 degrees. I also rarely exceed 650 degrees. I’ve never had a problem in 25 years. Some people just run their stoves too hot and issues ensue..I have heard this several times from our trusted VC maintenance guy.
Can't u burn it without the combuster
thanks
Talked me out of buying one!
Not buying anything from Vermont castings. I think I am going to look at a jotul.
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Dump them at the factory office and be done with them.
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Bought an Encore model, had almost a year. Vermont Casting is NOT the quality it used to be since the company was bought out. Literally falling apart. 100% NO support if you try to contact the company, not even an email contact. Insulation, glass on door fall off as they are poorly attached. The bypass lever on the right side does not work properly. Almost all the nuts, bolts, screws were loose when I received it. Buyer beware, they are just throwing theses stoves together as fast and cheap and expensive as possible.
Glad I have a non cat
sucky situation.
If you still have this stove, seal of the secondary air and it will solve your problem.
what do you mean seal the secondary air ????
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Sounds like a lot of bias, anti-American review. I have never had the problems you talked about "over heating." It sounds and looks like you are having one stove to do the job of two. Here in Minnesota have have hard winter's and with my house, around 2700sq ft, we have three stoves to properly heat our house.
Anti-American bias??? At one time it was owned by the Canadian teachers pension fund before that it was owned by a Japanese company hasn't been owned by an American company for quite some time and that's the problem keeps getting sold and they're just trying to keep the shareholders happy and not the customers!!!
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I have a flex burn defiant made in 2018 it's an excellent wood stove we love it burn it all year long.i mostly burn without the cat because I burn not so great wood even without the cat it still easy on wood.this guy dosnt know what he's doing.
I wrote to the company in Randolph after all these problems, but never got an answer, then phoned to them and was told a long story of no use, it was as if I was using the stove wrong. As a company you have a "single shot in the rifle" so to speak and if the costumers trust is lost forever, then the only thing to do is to close the business. The company went out of business some years after.
The decorations and general design is very fine, but there seems to be a lack off how combustion really works, there is a line of other stoves where the combustion is taking place at lower combustion chamber and the smoke burns here much better. There is also a high-end gasification cooker: Pertinger that cooks you food, heat the house by central heating ang prepares alle the hot was you need. Have a look at: Pertinger Sturzbrand-Heizungsherd - UA-cam. Have a look here at You tube seach for "gasification stoves", - it will impress you!
HM.