The MCU has a Joke Problem | Video Essay
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- Опубліковано 17 сер 2022
- The MCU has a joke problem so let's talk about it.
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Having every character be funny and quippy also really takes away from the characters who are SUPPOSED to be like that, like Spiderman.
And Deadpool and Fantastic Four.
This is a great point
I like to call this trope *"Everybody Wants To Be Tony Stark".* It used to be that we had one sarcastic quippy character in the friend group; ie: Chandler Bing, Han Solo. Today every MCU character talks in a quippy manner, even side characters like Sorcerer Supreme Wong.
@@One.Zero.One101 Right? It's so important when writing a team to make sure not every character in the team to be the same. Even with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles they're different. You got the smart nerdy guy, the violent guy, the honorable guy, and the funny guy. Imagine how Boring it would be if everyone in that team was the smart/nerdy guy? Or how annoying it would be if everyone was the honorable peaceful type like Leonardo without Raphael's more violent nature to add some spice to the group. If even the freaking NINJA TURTLES can get this right then there's no excuse for Marvel constantly fucking it up.
@TomCruz54321 It's more like Tony Stark wants to be the Spider-Man or the Flash. He wasn't really a humorist like them and mostly copied offer them being the easy going quipster may care hero.
My issue is that when the actors stop as if waiting for the audience to stop laughing.
That’s the laziest form of comedy to me
Yeah there’s just some awkward pause as if they’re waiting for the joke to land.
Or stopping because they're baiting for audience soyface reactions like the tobey and andrew reveal scenes in NWH
It’s like Big Bang theory
One of my favorite videos on youtube is a Yugioh April Fools video called "Yu-Gi-Oh! April 2036 TOCG Banlist Analysis", and what makes it such a good video is because it specifically DOESN'T pause to allow for laughs, and just keeps throwing out an onslaught of different jokes and swinging with different bats (with the exception of the times in which the speaker becomes suddenly silent in reaction to something, in which the silence itself is a joke which wonderfully breaks the pace of the video). That one video downright changed my perception of comedy.
Iron-man does that a lot. He always pauses before landing the joke or dropping a punchline.
The comparison to the Guardians is important. Each character in GOTG has their own unique personality. When Captain America makes the exact same jokes and remarks as Thor, Iron Man, Spider Man, Black Widow and Hulk they lose so much humanity. They just blend together.
Yeah in the first Thor movie, Thor was a fish out of water but I never felt he was dumb. Today Thor is like a dumb frat boy. It's a combination of Flanderization and Marvel's quippy humor.
Only spidey should nlbe making jokes not them.
Captain America barely joked, and mostly used quips when he felt and not when the plot tells him to do it. They were genuinely funny moments when used properly.
I wish they kept the one eyed Thor look. By keeping the eye patch on him him it shows he has grown as a character. There are lasting consequences. I think characters with battle scars look more badass. Also it would have mirrored his father’s look, taking the reins as a leader for his people.
i'm willing to bet that they didn't do that because having a main character wear an eye patch like that for all the time of filming all of his movies might be a bit much for an actor to deal with. its one thing for character with normal eye patches who can just flip them up in between scenes, but his was glued on.
No consequences allowed in the MCU, I'm afraid.
Scars are overrated, but I agree with the rest of what you said.
The rapid jokes and quips in the Infinity Saga was a moderate problem, but holy shit Phase 4 turned that shit up to 11!
And I thought Kung Fu Panda did balance Comedy and Serious scene very well
Thor Love and Thunder made me want to leave the Theater the amount of jokes were just unbearable.
@@laei6391 yea
@@saul7466 agreed, the worst of all things is that there is like 3 or 4 jokes, but then it repeats not only once, the goat joke was like 5 or 6 times
@@saul7466 Well the director likes to give himself a handy while the audience watches. And if you turn away, he grabs your head and says watch! Even though it is a Thor movie...I hate Love and Thunder...
They should have made Winter Soldier their template instead of guardians. Every character has become Star Lord. Not a single scene has room to be serious. Every character has interchangable dialogue.
I don’t hate on the MCU for it but damn you’re right they could have been so much more if they did
Yeah, guardians is amazing, but not every director can be James Gunn and the the incessant humor has become exhausting
Best comment. Yes, Winter Soldier should have been the template and not Guardians.
This!!! Every character is Star Lord especially Thor. I'd say Thor has become more Star Lord than Star Lord
@@jfelton3583 Right! Before that's what made them unique. Capt was serious, Ironman was selfish, Thor was the outsider, and Hulk was uneasy and lacked trust. Each unique. Now everyone cracks jokes
MCU having a joke problem is the understatement of the decade
Yea fr I’m confused how people are just barely talking about this, shit has always been like this
Finally, someone with my thoughts. Almost all of the "humor" is painfully unfunny. I binged all the mcu movies except Ant man 2 and GOG 2. I have laughed at one joke, in the entire franchise, and I am not kidding. The only thing I laughed at was "Why's Gamora". How people are noticing this just now is beyond me.
@@efreq.6465they probably been blinded by the hype of the MCU to notice
@@sibinsamthomas4719 because most mainstream movies nowadays follow a formula, people haven’t noticed because it’s all they know
Marvel has a writing problem
My problem is jokes during a serious moment. Drives me nuts
Their audience has matured, the movies has not
I don't get this critique whenever it is made. Do you think that Maturity is the problem? It's not the real MCU Problem is that The Writing, Characters and World Building no longer make any sense. In terms of turning characters into Jokes, people always leave out Ragnarok which i believe is the biggest offender of not taking things seriously. Like it's retarded.
I don’t think so to be honest, more like a vocal minority
I thi k your right. When looking at the Boys, The Batman, hell even DR Strange 2, people want dark, different and interesting stories. People are starting to reject goofiness. Because the audience is maturing. There's a reason, that Films Like Too Gun maverick, which took itself seriously, had some funny jokes, but was still an overall serious story. Marvel needs to mature or the 2020s are going to be rough.
The movies have regressed honestly
@@isacctavares1368 No I don't think so. Eternals was probably the most serious MCU movie to date and audiences didn't resonate with it. General audiences still like the lightheartedness of these movies. It's mostly hard-core fans that are the one constantly complaining about the tone of the MCU.
I remember clearly being in the theater watching Endgame and the audience laughing their heads off at Fat Thor. It just felt weird to me that the movie was asking us to laugh at this man who has lost his ENTIRE family (before the snap, so they ain't coming back...as far as he knew), nearly had his whole race of people wiped out, and is dealing with soul-crushing guilt over allowing Thanos to destroy half of the universe. Thor's story was actually pretty compelling if the directors weren't lighting a metaphorical LAUGH sign every time he was on screen.
Hollywood is more about social conditioning than making money.
That’s true. They wouldn’t make a joke about Natasha letting herself go.
They were gifted an incredibly well-written universe and set of characters to build movies around, and then did literally everything wrong
@@pyroshayniac1090 I mean they probably would have. Beating down a person thats at there lowest is commonly used in comedy
I’d like to uncomfortably point out that Thor has been forced to be naked on screen in every one of his movies and it’s always been played as a joke. I’m waiting for any of the female characters to be subjected to such treatment, and I’ll be waiting until the MCU dies.
the biggest lesson the marvel franchise has taught me is that all good things must come to an end
Same here, my friend.
my issue with wanda, whose character i love so much, is how in wandavision she’s only grieving vision, not her parents, not her twin brother, not her home country, just vision… which you could make the argument that it was her most recent loss, it’s what pushed her over the edge but.. it’s so weird how she doesn’t also create versions of her parents and brother in her play pretend pocket reality….. and to make things even worse, she doesn’t miss vision at all in MoM so.. what was the point of wandavision? 😭 i’ve seen a lot of people saying she was solely after her children in MoM because that was the darkhold controlling her and that’s so stupid because we didn’t exactly see how that happened, we didn’t get to watch her turn evil due to the influence of the darkhold.. she just was and we had to accept that, period.. she was pure evil in that movie, a full on terrorist, a serial killer lol it wouldve all made a lot more sense if they simply showed us how it all happened, her slowly losing herself to the darkhold, but no, marvel writers are too lazy for that apparently
They also made her very stupid, she could got everything she wanted by dreamwalking and taking America before she even meet strange but she want to be reasonable and her version of being reasonable is by summoning monsters that terrorized people & destroying property in order to get one girl, let not forgot her powers, she can read people minds, she can control you, she can TELEPORT which she only used once in movie and it was a cheap jumpscare, and mostly importantly can bend reality, why didn’t she ever used her reality bend powers to kill dr strange like she did to black blot & mr fantastic, it would have made sense for her use it on the one person that constantly foals her plans & adding the fact being corrupted increasing the likely
No, we dont need to see everything. we dont need to see hulk turning into prof Hulk or Wanda turning evil. We are not retards who need to be spoonfed everything.
I liked her in both Wandavision and MoM but she's basically two different characters in each. WandaVision and MoM can be enjoyed on their own but it kinda falls apart when you try to tie the two together, unfortunately.
" ... not her twin brother"
Uhm ... she actually kinda does.
@@aerithroses2683 right? and her character could've been written so much better. she has lots of potential. in MoM, she doesn't even seem like a threatening or good villain. one moment she murderous and is killing the Kamar Taj, next she's calmly talking to strange as if nothing happened.
Its crazy how Guardians are the more colorful, lightheartedly MCU movies amd still somehow end up being more mature than the other mcu films lately
Exactly but it’s ok if gotg has some jokes and goofiness but Thor has more jokes in it than a comedy show that’s not funny
It's works mostly because Guardians is a more serious movie led by a goofy lead character
I laugh at the jokes, but I don't watch any of the movies.
@S Niter yeah that’s true, Sif was going to die and said she was going to Valhalla and Thor says “you have to die in battle to go to Valhalla 😬” Making sifs death scene a joke.
But if you watch the behind the scenes of that movie Chris Hemsworth and Taika tell you exactly how they approach the character now. Chris hemsworth said “Yeah we don’t care about what happened in the old movies they don’t exist, we’re just making these as fun as possible” (or something along those lines)
Meh, GOTG 2 had too may jokes for its own good. Especially Rocket was essentially responsible for everything bad that happened in the movie.
The thing is, I like Thor in Endgame. It felt real, and tangible, that someone who was at the highest of highs and still failed would crash, hard, and that he was "still worthy" despite it all. And if they DIDN'T have every other character play it as a joke, it could have been incredibly compelling, as it's probably one of the most relatable responses to loss in the film, if not THE most. It's just when characters make jokes about cheese whizz in the most important moments of his arc that it kinda looses its poignancy.
That's a good point.
He's not saying he doesn't like Thor; he's saying he doesn't like the jokes being made about his weight when it comes from a place of pain.
No it was a terrible choice
I love your comment, and I want to add that I really hate the fact that they specifically made him fat to make it the butt of jokes. It felt like it was completely separate from his mental trauma and was just some low-hanging fruit they added *solely* to make fun of him.
But honestly, out of all of them, it felt the most in place for Tony to make fun of him
Sam raimi is a good representation of implementing jokes while still being tasteful and not ruining serious moments in the movie
And before someone points it out, no, he did not write MoM.
Spiderman trilogy
@@bikramarora1819 that's true
@@bikramarora1819 director for brand recognition
@@pheunithpsychic-watertype9881 that’s all MCU directors really are. Only guys like Gunn and Taika get any real freedom. You could literally have a robot direct the other movies and they wouldn’t be much different.
I think the MCU is like the stepdad who knows(in his own head) he'll never measure up to your real dad so he just takes as many chances to make you laugh as he can, even when that isn't what you want or need from him. Everything substantive that he could do is made less engaging because he isn't concerned with pursuing a decent relationship with you, he just wants to make your mom happy with that " hey, I tried" sort of half-measure attitude. He wants to be as casual as possible with neutered responses and empty stories. He looks like a decent guy on the surface but he's just not a man you look to as an authority or role model. Best you can do is have a beer to get through the small talk.
YOU DESERVE AN AWARD FOR YOUR ACCURACY!!!!
Ignorant.
This is part of why Winter Soldier is my favorite film. It has very little humor, and I would argue the humor has meaning. I hate that they changed Fury's line about his eye, which has pretty important meaning for the events of the movie.
The movies having humor isn't the problem to me. It's what moments and characters they apply humor to. 'Black Widow' should have been a darker, spy-style movie.
Black Widow was pretty dark, especially at the beginning during the opening credits.
@@magallanesagustin4952 Yeah, but I wish it kept the tone of the opening credits throughout the rest of the movie. The opening scene is one of my favorite scenes in the MCU. It's perfect for Black Widow. I just wanted that as the entire film.
Plus points for Winter Soldier for making me laugh whenever they joke around because the humor always lands in that movie.
"Don't say it, don't say it." "On your left." "Come on!"
"41st floor, north west corner!" "We're coming, stay where you are." "Not an option!"
"41st floor, 41st!" "It’s not like they put the floor numbers on the outside of the building."
"Can I help you guys, with anything?" "Oh no, my fiancé was just helping me with some honeymoon destinations." "Right, we're getting married."
"I made breakfast, if you eat that sort of thing."
"Anybody asks for me, tell them they can find me right HERE." *points at his fake grave*
@@somecallmejeremy I love the way they keep bringing up things throughout the entire movie. "What's Sitwell doing on a ship," then later "what were you doing on the Lemurian Star?" Or Nat constantly trying to get Steve a date. Things tend to be brought up at least two, usually three times in that movie; it helps create this continuity, for me at least.
@@asellape9270 Right? The Winter Soldier is an S-tier movie for me when it comes to the ranking of MCU movies. The way they handled the tone is so masterfully done, to the point where it feels like you're watching a James Bond movie and not a Captain America movie.
The problem is most of their jokes arn’t funny 😄 lol
Agreed. The jokes in MCU films just feel so forced.
All*
True, but this video just shows off most of the examples of where they shouldn’t be put in
commented before he talked about it but he explained it a lot better at 3:22
@@jeremyusreevu237 eh....not all of them, quite a lot of the jokes work well.
The MCU since they left phase 1 has been catering to one kind of audience. The audience like my sister who was reading a book and got mad at us for not warning her that a character dies later on in the book. Because it was "bad vibes and a waste of time", as I grew more wary of the MCU's over the top silliness she grew more fond of the MCU. Seriously there are people who try to claim Sam Raimi's Spiderman movies were over the top goofy, but nothing he has ever made hold a candle to the MCU's goofiness.
I miss the perfect balance of humor and seriousness in Phase 1. Phase 1 is still my favorite phase of the MCU.
Old MCU movies had jokes and comedic moments but they were used somewhat sparingly and not to interrupt serious moments. After the success of Guardians of the galaxy, it seemed like the movies had to pause every 5 minutes just to get a joke in. Like don't get me wrong Guardians of the galaxy was funny but that was because 1. The jokes were well written and 2. They worked with the tone of the movie.
James Gunn is such a good director that a juggernaut company is sinking themselves trying to impersonate his work
Meanwhile, he casually released a DC series that is undeniably better than any of the Disney+ shows.
@@Watermelon_Man Facts
@@Watermelon_Man Yeah, marvel did well with James Gunn for GOTG 1 and 2 because yes they did give him freedom apart from trying to keep it family friendly. But James Gunn absolutely dropped the balls with Peacemaker and the Suicide squad.
Goddamm that man is talented,
@@r7ahtesham885 SS was so fucking good, JG really knows how to make us love unknown characters also the scene with ratcatcher 2 and her father is one of my favorites from all time
@@ElCabra91 Yup, I liked it too..
I also liked when peacemaker ordered a drink for ratcacther 2's rat Sebastian..
Not only was the “beef or vegetarian” scene not funny, it was incredibly awkward and it ruined the flow of the dramatic moment and thrust us into something nobody wanted to see
So much so I was saying "shut the fuck up. Not funny." out loud. It's emoji movie levels of bad. Seriously.
From what movie was that
@@jovanym2931 Shang chi
My guess would be studio notes injected mandatory shitty humor in the worst possible spots.
Shit like that either comes from the top down, or from hiring people that are not great at what they do to write because they are the race or gender that meets the big corporations diversity agenda
That's what he said... In the video... That you commented on...
My defense of the Hasselhoff joke is that Ego is so far gone in terms of being a "god" that he lacks empathy for Peter. He is just doing things to be a "good" father such as taking that form, "like look I did this and that, what more do you want." IMO it was actually brilliant in that it shows more of Egos problem of lacking this empathy as he is so powerful he can take something Peter would hold onto for comfort as a child and use it against him. also giving a chuckle. but that's my take! Great video!
The first avengers movie was the only one where they were all on screen and actually had diverse and distinct personalities. Tony was literally the only one who was trying to be funny, which led to him and Steve clashing with tension at some moments cause Steve didn’t think he took things seriously. Nat was pretty level-headed and committed too cause getting Clint back mattered. The only time Thor laughed was at the humans arguing. And Banner was the butt of some of Tony’s jokes which ironically enlightened him cause he preferred that to being treated like a bomb about to go off.
Now literally everyone is Tony
Everyone else now is a try-hard Tony Stark.
Tony stole alot from Spideys and Deadpools characters. He was the witty and fun pov relatable guy that made fun of everything.
With Nick Fury and the cat, it could have sort of worked, if the joke was “haha lol the cat almost took out Nick Fury’s eye”.
But no they had to make it “haha lol Nick Fury’s eye was taken out by a cat”.
Yeah, that would've been better. Teasing the audience with it, instead of actually committing to it.
“The last time I trusted someone, I lost an eye!!” - Nick Fury in Winter Soldier.
@@traviscollura2440 well he did trust the cat 😂😂😂
@@clove5958 trash
This has to be ranked among the worst payoffs in movie history
Marvel allowed Disney to turn them into a 90 minute joke. Now every since Thor ragnorack it's like every movie has to be 90% comedy
Marvel was better before Disney bought them. Back when Marvel had its own unique identity. Marvel's identity now is just the MCU.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp facts bro
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Disney bought marvel like RIGHT after Ironman that’s like 99% of the mcu
@@alexoxo1 Yeah, but it wasn't directly integrated into Walt Disney studios until 2015. Before then it was kind of its own thing within Disney, with more control over the production of the films. Around 2015 Disney had more influence over the films, and Marvel itself.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Which movie was the first to experience this increase of influence?
The thing that got to me was the scene in Ragnarok where Loki and Thor just talked to their dad for the last time and there is this super brief moment of like actual emotion between them and then Hela comes in and they go straight to jokes. That was too much for me. In that scene ended my desire to continue the MCU.
Ironman and Loki were the best characters in the MCU movies
i disagree with the point about discussion of the red room in aou vs in black widow, because imo whether you find it personally funny or not it made sense for yelena’s character to treat it lightly. a character coping with humor or by treating everything lightly is something that can work, the issue is that that’s how EVERY mcu character responds to trauma (bc they can’t write anything else 🙄).
Thing is, it's not properly set up that she is deflecting with humor; it just feels like she's just being quippy for the sake of being quippy.
@@Wolffman109 If it was set up or made clear that's how she copes, it would have stuck the landing.
The problem is the whole scene was played for a joke. It wasn't only Yelena that was joking, the pace of the quips and the response from Red Guardian makes the scene a light-hearted interaction. It would have been 100 times better if Yelena was using jokes as a defense mechanism, but the whole scene was played serious because the other characters can sense what's going on.
The thing with The Hulk is that, this seems like the endpoint for his character. Bruce took full control and can just chill forever, since nothing can touch him. Fine. Great. Good for him and I love that this is where they went instead of whatever the fuck happened to him in the comics in so many versions (incest country for example). The problem is, by turning him into this between two very packed movies, it doesn't feel earned. He didn't do anything to earn this change, this catharsis for him. He just smashed a few things, fucked off, cameod in Ragnarok and was useless and then badabing, Professor Hulk
Honestly, it felt too early to do it in Endgame. They should have done it in his last movie
@@dabatman5187 Exactly my point. Hulk barely did anything before being scrapped into a green nerd
Savage Hulk is going to return with a vengeance apparently
@@ir6734 maybe they will do a prequel
Tbh, the 5 years stime skip is literally a goldmine for plot and stories. They could've made a story about how Hawkeye became an assassins in Japan, how Tony started a family, how the Avengers cope with the fact that they lost, heck, even how Bruce Banner regain control of the Hulk.
But Nope, they choose to move the story forward in the worst way imaginable, while leaving a lot of plotholes unexplained.
Thor in Endgame was such a missed opportunity. I don’t think him being fat, drunk, and hiding in video games was the problem. I could buy that as a reaction to deep pain, turning to ANYTHING that might numb the pain. The issue, as you point out, is how the movie treats this. Where it could have come across as full of pathos and even his jokes understood as a way to deflect… it just feels self-indulgent. Thor could have behaved in this self destructive manner for a time but the movie itself should have been clear that this is not the right way to grieve. Like Guardians vol 2 at least one character should have called him on it, made him realize the folly, just like Yandu did with Rocket. Gunn’s movies aren’t perfect, but I think he knows how to balance the humor and the emotional stakes. Infinity gave us Thor at his lowest circumstances and Endgame COULD have been super interesting showing us the emotional toll of those circumstances. This is one of the reasons why I think Infinity was the better story.
Thor was the 2nd of the original avengers to not have a good reputation
I don’t need a sermon within a story to teach me right from wrong. It’s okay to allow characters to be flawed without explaining that their characteristics are flaws or qualities. I enjoyed that they seemed to have a good time with a funny but realistic response to trauma. It made it a lot of fun that the heroes could backslide.
@@danielkaczmarski5688 Just because it's realistic doesn't mean it's good
@@danielkaczmarski5688 You can have a hero backslide. However, don't treat that backslide or trauma as something to laugh at. That's all Thor was in Endgame. Just the movie's punching bag. Someone for the audience to laugh at because fat, drunk, and sad is funny.
@@rickywilliams1586 Why not? Trauma is funny. Yes there are several other emotions associated with it too. But humor is one of those things that happens too especially after five years. It was good as far as I’m concerned.
If they ever make jokes about Rocket's trauma I will fucking riot
The Batman did humor properly.
They didn't want laugh out loud moments, they just wanted chuckles.
As someone who doesn't love the MCU, Guardians Of The Galaxy was a really good film
As someone who doesn't love the MCU, and also fell asleep during the last third of the film, Guardians Of The Galaxy is still a really good film.
As someone who used to love the MCU, Guardians of the Galaxy vol 1 and 2 were really good films, Thor Ragnarok too, the Joke/Action was quite balanced and the jokes were funny
@@LuisFelipe-pq9lr
Bro? When was the last time you watched Ragnarok? That shit was not balanced, lmao
@@LuisFelipe-pq9lr Korg/taika waititi joking while asgard destroyed. They cant even have serious moment in ragnarok.
Then we compared it with yondu's death
absolutely!!
I've held this belief since 2017. I still argue that Taika is the one responsible for Thor's humor problem. It baffles me that people praised it as much as they did, seeing as they changed Thor's overall demeanor and trivialized his loss. The Russo brothers handled him much better, even in Endgame where they at least gave him a coping mechanism for his depression.
Thank youu
I agree, well said
Disagree. What Russos did with Thor was based on what Taika did in Ragnarok. Humor as coping mechanism is Taika's whole MO for his entire filmography and Ragnarok is no exception.
Love & Thunder is that exception. That movie legit trivialized Thor's loss. Taika never stooped so low; that all is shallow. Worst part is that jokes aren't funny.
Agreed. I enjoyed Ragnorok quite a bit, but it wasn't what I wanted from that story. (There's a reason they're taking Hulk back to Sakaar to properly utilize World War Hulk as inspiration for a future story). I still think it worked because there was still an underlying emotional maturity to the character, and he took himself and the situations he was in very seriously when it became appropriate to do so. With that said, the story did have problems, and Waititi's frequent lack of sincerity did create problems in certain scenes (using the explosion of Asgard's homework to set up an anticlimactic joke is the biggest example), but I feel like Taika Waititi was still restrained in that film. Love & Thunder took all of the flaws of Ragnorok and dialed them up to eleven while stripping away any of Ragnorok's virtues. What boggles my mind is that Waititi is absolutely capable of using genuinely funny humor to ease the blow of incredibly heartfelt and serious situations (see Jojo Rabbit for reference), but Thor: Love & Thunder goes to show that he really doesn't give two cents about Thor or his story and mythos and is just using Disney as an easy paycheck so he can do the original, smaller, and more financially risky films he actually cares about. Good for him for making it work, but screw him at the same time for not putting the same level of care and attention to his Thor work. If Love & Thunder had the same care put into it that Jojo Rabbit did, it could have been both really funny and genuinely dramatic and an all around excellent film. He just treats Thor and everything about him as a joke. By deliberately making the characters a parody of itself, he was basically mocking the audience for even caring about "a classic Thor adventure." Why Marvel (and Star Wars) keeps hiring people who don't give a rip about the material (or at least don't care about becoming respectfully familiar with the material they're adapting if they aren't already familiar) and are just grifters parasitizing off of the franchise's success to push their own personal agendas is not a good longterm success strategy. Honestly, it might have to take the failure of Black Panther: Wakanda Forever and their next few D+ projects for there to be any hope of a change for the better.
I don’t really agree there, I don’t think Taika ruined it at all in Ragnarock. I think ragnarock was genuinely funny, as with Boy, What we do in the Shadows (film version) & Hunt for the Wilderpeople. Australia and New Zealand have very similar humour where it’s sort of based on mundane & awkward moments eg Flight of the Concordes or the Castle.
If we look at Taika’s film Hunt for the Wilderpeople- there’s a lot of very caring and genuine moments mixed in with ordinary characters that have quirk - but they are not caricatures, and I’d still argue that those moments are there in Ragnarock. I think love and thunder was shallow, but I don’t think that is Taika’s fault. Rather I think there might have been execs / editors / producers looking over him and telling him to cut out the character growth for more meme-able moments & soundbites. It’s not uncommon. It’s Disney; I’ve known of directors to not be able to have the final edits of their films, and it moves more like a bureaucracy then a studio today.
However; I also think that after Ragnarock’s case, Disney was trying to replicate its humour without understanding why it was so funny. So take the staples of NZ humour: awkward moments, unremarkable & everyday protagonists (that usually have a quirk or two), and doing mundane things (which can have domino effects!). It was this juxtaposition of superhero’s mixed with the mundane & awkward that made ragnarock so funny.
I feel like this is the equivalent of America trying to remake a British show. The characters are the same on paper but it’s generally missing the little quirks and what makes it funny in the first place. Without the little moments…it feels just empty; and the characters feel like caricatures.
That’s not a Taika problem, that’s a Disney problem. They don’t understand what’s special about their own IP.
Are people just now figuring this out? This has been a problem since Age of Ultron.
Sine Iron Man 2 really.
In guardians the humor works because the characters use humor to hide and cope with their trauma and being levity to a bad situation. The trauma was never the joke itself but that is what later movies misunderstand
That's a just an excuse. The characters just became more stupid as time went on
I think the problem is that sometimes the jokes in the MCU undercut the drama. I just recently rewatched Breaking Bad again and noticed that even though there’s a lot of funny moments in the show, when things get serious they stay serious. They allow the drama to breathe.
Exactly the jokes are in a good place in the story and not during super serious moments.
I think we can blame Joss Whedon's influence since Avengers was huge. Incessantly quippy dialogue is an issue with his writing in general.
> I think the problem is that sometimes the jokes in the MCU undercut the drama.
yea it's not like the guy in the video you commented on just spent 15 minutes saying this
No shit, that's what the vids talks about.
@@seth5143 Exactly, it started around the time the first Avengers movie came out. In the 2nd Thor movie parts of the dialogue already were whack as well and then you had these stupid sidecharacters like that one chick (had to look it up: Kat Dennings) just having useless unfunny oneliners. Upon seeing Mjolnir she goes: "Mjuh mjuh". It's stuff like that that is so offputting. And Thor was already becoming a bumbling buffoon.
To be fair the Hasselhoff scene ties back to a previous moment where peter and gamora are talking about the rough childhood peter had and how he’d lie and say David was his father, it just shows how powerful and petty ego is to try to get his way by him not even being there during that talk but still knowing what it was about and exploiting it just to try and further convince Peter onto his side
Agreed. I didn't take that as a joke. It was completely in character for what Ego was trying to do. David Hasselhoff was who Peter Quill modeled his ideal absent father as when he lied as a kid about why he wasn't there. Ego knew this and was deliberately playing to Peter's desires and insecurities in order to manipulate him. If it was meant to be funny, it was darkly comical in a manner that was consistent with the menace of the scene and the characters involved.
@@Tyler_W personally, I don’t really see it as a moment of satire, sure the acting was cranked up to 11 into the slightly goofy tone when ego first transforms into Hasselhoff but I feel like that’s because he transformed right as he was angrily yelling at Peter, which is why it sounds slightly off
We’re all aware of that. It still doesn’t negate the fact that it needs to be properly placed
@@brittneyharmon6647uhm ok? Just because it wasn’t properly placed doesn’t mean it’s a joke though
That’s another problem. Everything is either a callback to previous content or setup for more content
It is the laziest worst jokes and people in theaters laugh at them because they're supposed to laugh! It's sickening to me!
The reason I hate all marvel movie and prefer dc over them. JOKES
I do love how modern comedy has lost all it’s sincerity. Notice how the best comedy stories always have a “straight man” archetype to fill that lack of sincerity. Comedy doesn’t work if every character is the funny one. The worst type of comedy is when you don’t have time to digest the jokes. See Thor Ragnarok where every character jokes around to the point you can’t even process the first joke before the next bit. That works in reverse too. A drama doesn’t work if it’s torture porn levels of tragic. The best dramas also have moments of levity to let the audience breath. It’s all about balance.
That is so well put. Ghostbusters female had that problem that there was no straight man and Marvel has continued
@@lindasmith320 I like how we all just call the remake as Ghostbusters Female now
@Bulb99 To be fair it’s been completely decanonized lol.
@@bulb9970 true lol
So you're telling me that you hate classic comedies like the movie "Airplane!" or the anime "Nichijou" ??
Finally, someone addressed the elephant in the room, which is GoTG 1. It's from there where every MCU film was forced to become a comedy or have a comedic tone, with some notable exceptions.
I think Guardians wrongly confirmed to Marvel that this was the direction they should go in, but the heavily self-aware, meta style of humor very much originated in The Avengers with Joss Whedon, because that is his style that so many Millenial writers have adopted for some reason.
@@Tyler_W yeah, but I think the humour in The Avengers was fairly grounded and didn't go totally overboard like what happened in the subsequent films.
I feel like a bigger problem was Age of Ultron. That’s when all characters began quipping regardless of whether it made sense for their characters eg Ultron himself.
I think you all forgot the guardians comics are meant to be comedic
Gunn is just following the source material
Nah it was Ironman 2 imo
Avengers 1's jokes is what started us down this path, then guardians just solidified it
Marvel has a joking problem
A story problem
A character problem
and quality problem
Compared to the DCEU, not in the slightest.
@@apprentice_jedi I think their getting to the same level
It's not that the recent MCU movies don't take themselves seriously, it's that they treat the story and characters as a joke and they expect the audience to take it seriously. Which is why it's ironic and frustrating.
Hopefully they don't go overboard with the jokes in Daredevil Born Again because Daredevil is a character that needs to be taken seriously.
Idk if this only or mostly applies to his brief portrayal in She-Hulk or if this will apply to his Born Again series too, but they've almost all but confirmed that the goofy, meta Mark Waid Daredevil run, the worst and lowest performing Daredevil run in decades, is going to be their template for the character.
They definitely won't be treating serious, if anything they'll double down on all the jokes.
i’m literally so terrified they’re gonna disney-fy him. i’d rather they don’t touch the character at all if that’s what’s gonna happen 😕
It's probably going to be bad, so even though Daredevil is (almost) perfect I think we should skip this one.
Considering how he's presented in Spiderman: No Way Home, I doubt they'll go serious with him. "How'd you do that?" (Having just caught a brick flying in from the window) "I'm a really good lawyer." That doesn't sound like a serious character.
i didnt even see the hasselhoff "joke" so much as a joke, he basically showed him what forms he took/would take to please him (the character likes hasselhoff) but also deceive him, it can feel weird, but i never saw it as a joke just as a way to show another way how he did deceive him
This is why I liked the movie Edge of Seventeen because when the main character is playing victim the entire movie based on everything happening around her, she has to accept her harsh reality but also take a look at her own actions and take accountability for them as well in order to mend her relationships and self esteem. Self reflection and accountability is so important and I don’t know why movies these days lost that part of the story.
I had an issue with the jokes from the MCU around Infinity War. "We have an earth ending threat"
*random joke*
*random joke*
*exposition*
*broken up by a random joke*
I actually watched Avengers 2012 recently, and it’s way less quippy than I think people remember. At least compared to current day marvel. It actually lets its serious moments be serious instead of being constantly interrupted.
a comedy special is less quippy then current day marvel.
The avengers was still way to comedic though
Natasha’s genuine fear of the Hulk really stuck with me.
@@pyroshayniac1090 it was very well acted
@@jacobhargiss3839 For sure, Scarlett played it so Natasha was in perfectly in control of herself at all times. The scene where she showed no actual fear as goons threatened to pull out her teeth and tilted her over a chasm showed how fearless and capable she was. If something about this unassuming guy had Natasha scared, it had to be something unspeakably bad, and the audience knew they had something to be scared about too.
The quips are just cringe and not funny. How are we supposed to be invested in how much of a threat the villain is if the characters act like its just a social gathering
the sad fact is that comedy, amidst a story full of disorder, grief, and trauma, can be a great way to add levity and texture to a film. Bong Joon-Ho's body of work is a perfect example of how to do humor within the most depressing baseline of stories, and hell I'd add half of Asian cinema into this. it's the matter of timing, context, and appropriation, all of which Marvel have failed miserably since.
I don't have a problem with Endgame's Thor, I have a tremendous problem with Taika Waititi's Thor (both films).
Nah bro, ragnorok was better than endgame Thor. Tho I admit there wasn’t much of a character in the first place.
Same! I feel kinda satisfied though with the backlash to Love and Thunder. It kinda makes me feel like I was not insane for thinking Ragnorak had a bunch of issues, with far too many jokes, screwing over entirely better written comic storylines for the lols, and literally killing the Fantasy side of the MCU. Like Doctor Strange is barely about Magic or the Mystic arts--it's pseudo science fantasy stuff. I wanted Thor to be, well, like God of Wars tone and vision...but instead we got Guardians of the Galaxy with Asgardians.
Ragnarok Thor was still the same Thor of intelligent & wise warrior but now using humor as a coping mechanism for all the bullshit he went through in recent memory. Its the love & thunder Thor which is an absolute abomination
I think it’s crazy that people are more mad at this movie than ragnarok. I think that Taika shitting all over the lore and making characters into jokes was more egregious in ragnarok but people give it a pass. Idk maybe it worked better cuz even I liked ragnarok more it’s a weird phenomenon
The thing about ragnarok is that it basically laid the groundwork for Thor's character destruction. While it is an enjoyable movie, it still has a lot of problems decribed in this video: jokes undercutting emotional moments (like turning Loki's and Thor's relationship into something it isn't, the korg joke after Asgard, their fucking home for centuries is destroyed, etc.) Thor's comedy in the previous moments came from him being an extraterrestrial being on earth, in a completely different environment and not understanding certain things. Also him being more of a "hit things guy" than a thinker. But he still could be serious and smart. Ragnarok took this and turned him into another version of Tony Stark who suddenly talks like a dudebro. Also Taika literally said fuck all the source material because as long as it's funny it doesn't matter if anything is connected which then continued to happen more in the MCU. And while Thor 1 and TDW still have their own flaws, I personally prefer them over the other two Thor movies because they feel different, magical, mysterious and like actual movies about Gods.
i liked WandaVision, but I never saw it as "Wanda did no wrong" and i personally dont think they actually said that. I always saw it as "depression, when not acknowledged or treated, can lead you to hurt others and do regrettable things"
They might’ve been aiming for that but then they had Monica say the terrible line “They’ll never know what you sacrificed for them.”
@@jrsam21 true. i never understood that line
@@callnight1441 it's called accountability. Any non eunuch will tell you it's women's kryptonite.
Well Joker did it better so...
If they did that, it would have better
she hulk has been an establish character since the 80’s, she’s not some “new and improved version” she’s a classic character
Yeah, but too bad she was butchered in the MCU.
I actually don't think Ego shaping into Hasselhoff was meant to be a joke, rather it was him trying to seduce Peter one final time before fully snapping.
I will say that even the (hands-down) best film of Phase 4, Spider-man No Way Home, suffered from the same humor problem. That is until Green Goblin took over in the apartment scene. From then on, the film actually started to really take itself seriously. There was still humor, but it felt more natural and it wasn’t too much.
"What did you say your name was again?"
"Doctor Otto Octavius"
"Hehehehe"
Keep in mind these kids are getting ready to start college, and they're cracking up over a man's name.
@LimeSlime Yeah, but it didn’t warrant that much laughing.
@@dragonsword8129 most it warrants is a silent thought in your head. Even if they are trying to portray them as socially inept nerds it don't work
@@SpeedKing.. A better response would’ve been something like an eye-roll or pausing with a raised eyebrow before asking, “Seriously?”
@@dragonsword8129 yeah the most they could afford was that.
I didn’t have a problem with ego turning into Hasslehoff, I didn’t really see it as a joke but as more of a call back to Star Lord’s fixation with having a dad as a child and how much that meant to him, kind of like ego was taunting him
Exactly that’s what I was thinking it wasn’t a joke
Absolutely, it was rather frightening. It showed how much power Ego had over reality, how he thought he was giving to his son what his son needed and how much he didn't get the whole situation. Even if it was "funny", it was absurd, threatening, tragic - but not comedy.
@@seresimarta4436 I had a similar thought to the black widow joke which he had a big reaction to.
To me it was less of a throw away joke and more dark humour showcasing the tendency to make light of and minimize your own trauma and pain. It went back to the themes of the movie: autonomy and control. She can make light of it because she's so used to it. That type of violation is just another part of everyday part of her life.
The red guardian recoils from the information because yes he find it gross, but also because he never had to face what his daughters had to go through before and he doesn't want to. It's similar to the scene Melina has later when she says she never considered that Yelena would one of the agents being min controlled with her technology.
We got no hasslehoff joke in my country. They censored it, i dont know why
I'm pretty sure Peter says he lied and said his Dad was David Hasselhoff as well, it shows Ego delving deep into what Peter believes, its scary.
As someone who wants to start his own writing journey I appriciate this video so much! Really gave me an insight of how we as the audience sometines just blink through the characters traumatic experiences.
Good luck on your journey!
@@sofia7294 Thank you my friend :)
The worst part is how you can tell so many of the jokes are written as theatre-bait. People lose their shit in theatres over certain types of jokes and it feels like that's all these movies are packed with.
Old people
Or 8 year olds.
Im glad someone is calling out jokes ruining serious moments. One of the ones I hate the most is in Infinity War. Bruce is talking about Thanos, and Strange and Wong are wondering about him, Tony just jokes about Ice Cream Flavors. Theres a serious threat coming and Tony is joking about Ice Cream, when Iron Man knows about Thanos and how serious he is. He says in Endgame that Thanos has been living in his head since Iron Man 3. And Jokes about Ice Cream....😑
🤓
Yeah, i think they suffered from a case of "wouldn't it be funny", there's no way that line about ice cream came about organically in the writing process. They added it because they thought it would be funny, even though it makes no sense.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp it was definitely an RDJ adlib. That probably wasnt in the script. Other than that Joke I still love the seriousness of Infinity War, but that type of joke really pulls us put of the moment.
@@isacctavares1368 that's why I consider the true ending to be Infinity War. Endgame was such a disappointing mess. Felt like it was made by completely different people.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp I think Endgame is a good ending, they just had a lot thread's and storylines too close. So it was a tad too much. It wasn't really a true finale as it still left things open, it was satisfying, but not a satisfying ending Like Return of the Jedi, or Harry Potter or Return of the Kings ending, that felt definite.
I thought Spider-Man Homecoming did a better job with the humor. It was integrated in the movie because the majority of the vibe felt like a full on comedy. The movie got serious at times when it had to without constantly switching the tone. Not surprised since it was written by the guys who directed Game Night.
Yep, just reference to another reference and repeat which gave me a hard time whenever I revisit Homecoming.
We are lucky Spider-Man is not owned by Marvel, otherwise it would be also be changed to another cheap comedy movie..
@@3107karan that’s just Far From Home :/
it also helps that spiderman has always been a quippy character.
No way home was filled with jokes to the point of being distracting. They somehow managed to overshadow a quippy character with literally everyone else around him cracking more jokes than him
It's called Bathos. When you interrupt an emotional scene to put something (usually a joke) that throws out the entire vibe and just makes everything unconfortably anticlimatic
The Problem is that they don't have Jokes. Just dumb sentences.
I said the same thing, they always now rely on jokes to carry their movies rather than the emotional and moral sides of their stories. Hopefully they learn from their viewers and bring back the golden age of Marvel
Seeing how they handle criticism, I *HIGHLY* doubt that.
Eh, just you wait until you see Phase Six CGI.
@@kyodarkness9243 ??
@@kyodarkness9243 Eh?
Completely agree (although I do think Thor would have worked really well in Endgame had they not made a joke out of his trauma). Marvel has gone from the occasional funny quip to nothing but jokes, making characters into jokes, etc.
One thing though, the Hasslehoff transformation in Guardians 2 didn't even strike me as a joke. Knowing what Peter said about pretending Hasslehoff was his Dad as a kid, it struck me as horrifying, utterly manipulative, and very in character for Ego.
I've had this problem for years with marvel movies. Every moment has to be downplayed with some joke that just makes you roll your eyes
A pile of piss has more coherent writing than the MCU does.
I can concur to that.
@@darkclaw1462
Thanks.
I've brought this up in a couple conversations how un-impactful and disingenuous every moment in the MCU feels.
When you're constantly in life-threatening situations where often and realistically there are dozens to thousands of bystanders that could be in harm's way and they (the heroes) don't take it seriously, cracking jokes constantly as they're crushing skulls or getting stabbed, and then without warning based on circumstance but very obviously foreshadowed to the viewer, they decide to get somber with a big sacrifice or reveal.
Why should we (the audience) care? The entire time it's been nothing but jokes and plot armor, and every losing battle is either inevitably met with an easy comedic getaway or some joke-infused deus ex machina.
The MCU lost the raw grit that the original Iron Man, Hulk, or even Thor had, and replaced it with everyone being a comedian once they saw a formula that worked from Guardians OTG and Deadpool.
The issue is the average person is not funny, and while trauma can curate a sense of humor in a person, it is not equally applicable, nor equally expressive in each person/character. These are some dark characters that should reflect that, with the occasional shining of the light you should expect of a hero.
Not every moment feels un-impactful and disingenuous. They do take it seriously for the most part...when they crack jokes it's in between moments where they are crushing skulls and getting stabbed.
Because the heroes do take what they are doing seriously...that's why we should care. Not really, and it's mostly not plot armor either. Not true....a lot of the time it's met with them winning in a rather serious way that isn't easy or deus ex machina, and even the times comedy is involved it isn't easy or deus ex machina.
Not everyone is a comedian though.
That is true....but different people are different kinds of funny and the average person is not a superhero either.
@@jaydenc367 Did you not see the beginning of Thor Love & Thunder? At no point did any of them take what they were dong seriously.
@@budgiecat9039 I haven't seen that film yet no.
@@jaydenc367 Well okay just saying your argument is flawed because of that then and its only getting worse now since they dont seem to care anymore about quality control.
@@budgiecat9039 Well yeah...but tbh I was never trying to defend how Phase 4 treated Thor.
The Marvel jokes are sort of preemptive strike jokes. Superheroes are an inherently silly concepts. Musclebound guys in colorful spandex fighting villains bent on world domination by using abilities that defy physics. So Marvel jokes about most of its tenets. Capes? Quick! Make a joke! Silly bit of world-building? Make a joke! Make a joke about it before somebody in the audience does it himself. They are laughing WITH us, not AT us. Right?
It's a defense mechanism. Subconsciously Marvel doesn't have faith in its own material. Or its own audience for that matter.
Which brings ut to Taika. Why Ragnarok is so lauded is a mystery to me. A bunch of its comedy is pratfalls and Thor getting electrocuted. People gave shit to George Lucas for Jar-Jar, but now we have to act like this sub-par Benny Hill shit is the height of comedy? Taika decided that a god with a hammer is a stupid fucking concept, so why even bother? How did anyone ever treat this shit seriously? A story about the destruction of his home is sprinkled with scenes where he throws a dodge-ball at a wall and it hits him back in his head. Might as well go and spit in Walt Simonson's face while you are at it.
But it seems genpop is eating this shit up. It's just that it boils down even Tony Stark to a caricature. Watching RDJ throwing a barrage of jokes about some guy's lack of nose, while in the background a giant circular saw seems to be cutting Manhattan in half is bizarre. Surely there's room for jokes, but also moments of levity. There's thousands dying in the background but that horrible collateral damage everybody was upset in Man of Steel doesn't seems to matter here. Maybe Superman should've quipped about insurance rates going through the roof and everybody would be fine about it.
WHEW your comment hasn't gotten very much attention but your first point is so accurate. Marvel does not, subconsciously, have faith in its source material and does not believe audiences will take it seriously, which results in them trying to prevent being made fun of by audiences via making fun of themselves first.
I thinkk thor ragnarok does, i dont like eige undoes all th high fantasy thor.
But its actually funny. I have mixed feelings (and the worst of it i that it has a point, but must then ruin that in infinity war, after he learned to be a king, and that, and.. ) And taita actually gives thor serious character developement that int just him getting angry and traumatized.
i can jut gues that hulk was forced in, and he actually is funny but, why did anyone to put hulk in that story? and i think its a tetament its actually made work more than, it was not him deciding hulk needed to b in.
And tony in iron man one an 2 is the exception as he is meant to e a character that needs serious adressing hi personality problems and i am fine h had a relapse, but later, urg, why is he shown as hero when he, doesnt grow from his tim when he is an antihero.
Like it can b dark comedy to adress things like that tony is gross irreponsible. When he is meant to be in his needs to grow phase, early.
Also yeah hulk deserved to be way more serious than he is, i liked the norton hulk way more.
I think the beat on the head that’s comics is a silly concept is the most over used excuse to create terrible movies and stories in live action form
totally agree with you friend
Very well and if I say they are muscular characters in spandex but what Mr. Kevin Feige does not know is that no matter how eccentric your fantasy world is, you must be plausible in your story
Did we come from this generation of serious movies like Tobey Maguire's Spiderman, Singer's X Men or Nolan's Batman and you return to Shumacher's Batman? Why continue destroying Clooney's Batman if today Thor is naked in a forum ridiculing Russel Crowe?
Why destroy Snyder's Superman for not smiling
But if you applaud Thor who smiles like an idiot?
I don't think the entire MCU is guilty of this, because clearly the audience did take it seriously enough to follow the story and make Avengers: Endgame one of the most successful movies ever made. The problem is that I think they've progressively gotten infiltrated and taken over by the normies and "cool kids" who are embarrassed by what they're working on and are only there to parasitize off of its success because it's trendy now in order to use it as a platform for their own personal interests and pet agendas. The best MCU has to offer fully acknowledges the absurdity of comic books, but they also understand and aspire to the creative feat of using these absurd premises to tell genuine stories about real ideas and the human condition with human characters (not literally in some cases, but you get what I mean). They embrace the creative challenge of taking that absurdity and making you care anyway, and that attitude comes from a place of love and respect, both for the medium and for storytelling in general. Unfortunately, I think the kind of people parasitizing the franchise's success have largely taken over. I don't believe it's impossible for things to improve, but I highly doubt it, because that would require a serious Zazlav in WB Discovery levels of seismic change to the Disney corporate culture that I'm not sure can happen just yet. Disney's star rose so high that it still needs to be humbled even further before they can muster the will to get their heads out of their collective rear ends.
"I'm not the one with the guns, director" is possibly the single stupidest line presented in the entire MCU, and most of film industry. 🤦🏻♂️
9:10. It’s honestly a miracle this didn’t happen with No Way Home, both retuning Peter’s feel like a logical progression from their previous outings. With maybe an exception on Peter #3 “not holding his punches” since we didn’t get a chance to see it. But the bit where he feels like there isn’t much room for Peter stuff in his life, only to be encouraged by a Peter who went through something like that is on point
Another insanely annoying problem I have with the McU is it’s fucking awful power balancing. It drives me up a wall. Thor in Infinity War armed with just stormbreaker EASILY overpowers Thanos with all 6 stones. On Titan Tony is able to take him on and draw blood when he’s armed with at least 4 if I remember correctly at that point. And then in endgame it’s just thanos, who now has no previous battle experience with the Avengers, armed with a big sword and no stones. Iron man has his best suit of armor, Thor is Dual Wielding Mjolnir and Stormbreaker, and Captain America now has access to the power of Thor. And yet they get ass blasted by him. Make it make sense man. Black Panther is literally wearing Captain Americas shield as a suit of armor, tanks .50 caliber automatic gunfire without being moved when chasing Bucky, but then has to make an effort to dodge Hawkeyes arrows in the airport…
Tfw tony and thor whoop hulk when he's supposed to be the strongest man (or creature?) alive
Thank you, Guardians was my favorite MCU movie when it came out but I almost instantly noticed that every movie after that was trying to be a bad version of it, just because something works for one story or group of characters doesn't mean it works for them all and some of these "Jokes" made me feel ill.
Black Widow should have been a lower budgeted R Rated thriller that brought some variety into the MCU and really got into what made the title character who she was.
Honestly I think now my favorite MCU things are Daredevil and Jessica Jones because I can stay invested in them thanks to them not treating their characters and what they go through as a sitcom.
thats one of the reasons i wasn't a fan of Ragnarok everyone was raving about how much better it was than the first two and how it "fixed Thor" but i always saw it as Guardians light. i will always prefer the first two because the Thor films for better or worse actually had their own identity Ragnarok is literally just a Guardians movie starring Thor
@@evenhartwick4422 Yeah, I hated that movie. In the first movie and The Avengers Thor was my favorite character because he was a classic epic hero, then they turned him into a joke and his movies started to feel like Guardians movies.
I liked Guardians of the Galaxy, but that isn't what I want from a Thor movie. I watch different movies for different reasons, if every movie in a series feels the same, why should I watch more than one movie in the series.
I just rewatched the first six Star trek movies and you want to know what makes them stand out, they each feel different from each other and have their own feel and tone while still staying true to the characters, Marvel needs to go back to doing that.
You are correct about Guardians being the tipping point. Guardians featured a very different style and rhythm to its direction, which set it as unique in the MCU. Not to mention it was set in outer space. Then the executives figured that haha funny lol was the one singular thing that made the movie good (and not, heavens forbid, literally everything else) and they made Thor 3 attempt the same type of humor. "It's in space with aliens, so it's basically Guardians 1.5"
Thor 3 was the drop after the tipping point.
For the trauma thing, some people cope by making it humorous. Wanda isn't that type of people so she isn't going to make jokes about it while Yelena seems to be so she's going to make jokes and quip about it. In Black Widow's case, I don't think the movie isn't taking it seriously, its just the kind of character they have written Yelena as. I am not saying its a good character writing making Yelena a Guardian of the Galaxy but that's just how she is written.
This is something that the justice league (cartoon not the movie!) did much better, flash was really the only who made jokes. Wonder woman superman and the other members of the justice league didn't really joke about but they were still hopeful and optimistic, batman was really the one member who was dark anf broody. This was a much better dynamic for the show
In ZSJL, Flash was also the only one who made jokes.
Agree 100
@@Strato_Casterrr9898 and were funnier than Whedon’s jokes in his version
The hasselhoff joke was was building on something Peter had said earlier in the movie though so it didn't feel like it came out of nowhere, he mentioned how he would tell people hasselhoff was his father so it just built on that plot point
Better throw it in at an intense part of the movie so the 14 year olds will pay attention.
For a show I was least excited about, Hawkeye has some of the best serious moments of Phase 4 so far from pre-existing characters. Sure the show has its flaws, but the scene where Clint is talking to his son on the phone and the mourning of Natasha throughout really grounds its story of family and I give it credit for that
i'm pretty sure any film involving members of the Shield, the Winter Soldier and Falcon took itself more seriously, they are by far the best ones for me
When Thor looked more silly and dumb than star lord then yeah that's a problem
James Gunn could at least balance the humor and drama in the Guardians films
Man I couldn’t agree more. I stopped after Endgame (aside from NWH) and I’m glad I did tbh. I saw this stuff coming since Endgame, and I thought Endgame was a …….*fine*…….ending. I love MauLer too.
Infinity War is the true ending. Half of everyone died. The end. Endgame was a disappointing mess.
I think the MCU officially jumped the shark during Endgame when on a mission to save half the universe Captain America cracked a joke about his ass.
I saw this coming at Endgame, too. The entire Thanos arc had so much build up and the stakes were so high that there was no way they were going to be able to top it. But corporations do what they're going to do, so they're going to keep making these movies as long as they make them money. Can't necessarily fault them for it, since that's their whole purpose, but that doesn't mean I have to come along for the ride either. I checked in for No Way Home, since I grew up on Spiderman, but if it weren't for the dripping fanservice the movie wouldn't have been worth it.
@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp Endgame was a solid ending. The only problem was they were too many plot points to wrap up at once to the point where most of them felt rushed.
@@quangamershyguyyz7166 another problem is how they made Thor and Hulk into complete jokes. They had no real ending or jumping off point.
You set up that Guardians 2 has an instance of a joke interrupting a dramatic moment. Why would you show the part of the scene that isn’t what you were referencing!?
Here's a great example of a serious character turned into a joke that actually works: Brak. In the original Space Ghost series, Brak was a ruthless villain, and in Space Ghost Coast To Coast and The Brak Show, he was turned into an optimistic, simple minded naive child. But there are 2 reasons this works: 1. Both Space Ghost Coast To Coast and The Brak Show are parodies, meaning that not only are they not really canon, but they're intentionally more farcical and silly by design, unlike the MCU which is still mostly serious, despite the occasional joke. And 2. Parody Brak is actually a really good character. Unlike Professor Hulk, who is just "quips: the character" Parody Brak is a very interesting character filled with personality. He's likable, naive but not a complete moron, always tries to befriend anyone he meets, and the comedy not only comes from him doing and saying silly things, but also with how he contrasts off characters that are the complete opposite of him personality wise, like Zorak, Thundercleese, and Brak's Dad. Essentially, they took an unremarkable villain from a Hanna Barbera show, and through making him more silly and ridiculous, they created a fun, likable, unique, and enjoyable character.
Great video by the way. And watch The Brak Show, it's so friggin good!!!!!!
I love parody Brak so very much his show was the best 🧡🦇
@@T0xXx1k Agreed.
They need to use it with certain characters like spider man is a teenager and it makes sense his franchise would have humor but making everyone like That takes away from their actual characters
It feels like every piece of media is copying the typical Marvel dialogue as well. Even games now have annoying ass quips that completely ruin the experience.
I hated Endgame, mostly because of what they did to the characters of Thor and Captain America. I’m sure they thought that Cap’s ending would be a real warm and fuzzy for all of the idiots who would say, “awwwww… isn’t that nice. Cap finally got to spend a life with Peggy.”
It doesn’t work that way. A hero is a hero because they make the big sacrifices. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Steve was selected to the program because he is the kind of guy that can’t stand aside and let someone else step up and make the sacrifice. Before having the super powers, he threw his body on what he thought was a live hand grenade.
That was something that Cap accused Tony of not being, yet Tony threw his life away when he took a missile through the portal and when given a second chance, he loses his life making the snap because Captain Marvel was too stupid to do it while she had the gauntlet. What did she think she was going to fly it into the portal and know when and where to deliver every stone to?
Instead, Steve is made a complete coward, who left his friend Bucky at the mercy of Hydra. I guess Steve was happy to live in the police state that Hydra would have created with no heroes to stop it, but hey, he gets to spend that life watering and mowing the lawn behind that white picket fence in a police state with Peggy. No wonder he refused to elaborate more to Falcon.
Thor was the one that took it the worse from the writing. Rather than giving Thor the redemption arc and let him make the snap to bring half of the universe back, they give it to Banner, a character who had fuck all to do with Thanos. What did Thanos take personally from Bruce? The one fight he lost. Thor had his best friend and brother killed by Thanos. Even if it had to kill Thor to do the snap, at least he would go out a boss, rather than the bumbling comic relief he has now become.
No wonder they made Thor the stupidest character, after all he has only been living for over 1,500 years, but needs lessons in love and life form Starlord, the other buffoon of the MCU.
Thor had progressed so much as a character by Infinity Wars, having some real depth to him emerging, so what do they do to him, make him the big Lebowski for all future Thor movies. Thor did nothing but get his ass kicked repeatedly by Thanos. Even Steve dished put more punishment with Mjolnir on Thanos. I can’t remember Thor doing anything of note in the entire fight. The MCU really hates his character.
Thor does much better without Jane. Natalie Portman is such a stale character in these superhero movies. It’s just not her kind of part. There is nothing special about her character that would make you realize why Thor fell in love with her.
If it’s just a pretty face, Thor is shown as being the heartthrob of the MCU, so pretty faces should be easy for him. How about Doctor Chow from Age Of a Ultron. She would have made a much more interesting match for Thor. I never really saw any chemistry between Thor and Jane. There had to be a better character than Jane.
You wrote this whole essay for what? For some fictional characters that don’t affect your life in anyway? Get a fucking life bro
The non Disney films had brilliant moments of humour but Disney have no idea how to merge humour with drama at an adult level
These movies aren't made for adults. They're made for 9 year olds and marvel fans.
Not to mention that the wanda they built up before phase 4 wouldn't have done the evil things she does in wandavision and MoM. She had a full personality switch. In civil war she blames herself for inadvertently causing the death of those wakandans at the beginning of the movie, she also believed that genocide was bad and that's why she turned on ultron. She wasn't a bad person, but they turned her into one
I was so confused on my she was the in TMOM. I was thinking maybe she was in the comics, but I don’t read the comics.
I thought that was South Africa or Nigeria in the beginning of CA: CW?
As comic reader Scarlett Witch is both good and bad she isn't always a hero
Wanda is portrayed a hero because it's her story. It was meant to establish her as a villain. It only falls apart when Monica cheers her on because Monica is supposed to be the 'good guy' in the show.
Thor just stopped trying. After time, you stop trying to get better and just do the minimum to stay afloat and humour is a great way to cope through that. I related to the character so much because that's a near accurate depiction of trauma, I went through something similar. The issue with Endgame's humour is when it is misplaced. Like when Nat dies and everyone is going through the grief and Thor is in denial and Rhodey says his blood is Cheez-wiz, that's the humour you don't need in a movie.
That's some chimp-brain writing.
11:20 Imagine if this conversation wasn't played for laughs and was actually just a serious one-to-one between Yelena and Alexei with Yelena exposing all the pent up rage and anger that she felt towards him over his betrayal and abandonment as he sold her down the river to be horrifically abused both mentally and physically as a child.
The visceral emotion that a scene like that would be able to portray would be incredible. That could be a brilliant turning point in his character as he reflects on all the terrible shit that he's done.
But then that might make the audience sad so we can't have that.
I want Taika Waititi to be banished from every making movies again after Thor Love and Thunder, that movie was just awful.
Do take this with a grain of salt, but there has been rumors that Thor will not be returning for Thor 5. Now if this was true, I wouldn't be surprised he left because of the backlash and that Thor 5 gets cancelled.
They are all tonally messed up and for me, the jokes almost never land.
Give me Prof X in Logan saying, "Shes 11, I'm f**king 90" any day over the humor in the MCU thus far
It's sad how you start with a right angle just to go to "wah wah wimenz changed my Marvel wah"
Even Deadpool handles trauma more seriously and carefully than the MCU
Same for the Fantastic Four.
I hate when they have a serious moment and then they slap you in the face with a joke
Guardians Of The Galaxy are the only MCU movies where the comedy work.
They did not invent this style of humor. I was watching the opening scene from an old James Bond movie and the characters were quipping back and forth the entire time.
I thought the Hasselhoff thing was weird, but I honestly didn’t think it was a joke.
“That’s my freaking father!” And the PAC Man gag was more of a problem for me though.
The MCU also has the issue with making fun of character names as if everyone watching is an 8 year old
Haven't they only ever done that once?