I live in the KC area. Going to AOG church for the last 4 years. Left Lifegate Church which is steeped in NAR. The pastor graduated from Rod Parsleys College.
I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your work! The names you drop never end, most I have never heard of. My name list to research this stuff gets longer. How am I going to get anything else done around here...lol.🤪 Thanks again, John
Thank God that was about the same time I left and a heaviness has been lifted off my shoulders my church was all about war war war they were steeped in works and also deliverance ministries there was always a demon in your generational bloodline that you needed to be delivered from I thank God for delivering me I am free!
@@mtal5042 Like leaving any cult - the further you get out the more recognize just how insane that shit is...and that someone is making bank off the whole ideological grid...major drama-queens! One big entertainment for poor, ignorant gullible souls - speaking one who escaped a pentecostal cult before it exploded in my late 20s
Christ - " Know ye not The Lord Thy God is in you." ... " it is NOT ME but The Father IN ME that does the work." God - "As ye do unto another ye have done unto me."
What's so tricky is when people perfectly mix Truth with Falsehoods... Like how we know the Apostles are just the 12+Paul. These are offices of leadership and the Apostles laid the foundation that we have been building upon ever since... But all believers are ALSO called apostles, except it's usually translated as missionary. Like when Jesus said Go, that makes all of us "ones who are sent" But that kind of apostle better be with a lowercase a 😂 and it better follow the same way we're all saints
Neither I nor the Family of Churches I belong to, are part of the NAR , and yet our Family, which is worldwide, believe strongly in the Fivefold ministries of Ephesians 4 and their vital relevance to the Church of The Lord Jesus Christ today! We have an international team led by an Indian brother and several leaders of our team are black African brothers. We were offered a place in NAR but are a relational family not a network, and therefore have never joined it. The revelation of Scripture undergirds us nothing more… nothing less.
One of the most obvious challenges to Wagner's homogeneous group principle is the early church. The early church was made up of Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. There were no separate churches for the Gentiles. Both were placed together, and Paul's letters clearly indicate he was addressing a mixed church.
I am not trying to be disagreeable. I know that John Wimber founder of the Vineyard was Quaker before becoming envangelical then Vineyard. I am not so sure that Wagner was a Quaker do you have the research on this as I am sure that Wagner was from another Proestant denomination.
If you read the New Testament and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you. You will find that the Catholic Church opposes the Holy Scriptures on so many levels. If you trust and believe that Jesus Christ was the Promised Messiah, the Son of God who died for our sins, rose again and is seated with the Father then I suggest you read His Word. No one can come to the Father except through Him. He is the Only Way
@@bjrgstre-mauger5398 Wellsir, I have read the Holy Scriptures, and continue to read the Holy Scriptures, and the Holy Spirit who came in the name of Jesus Christ, my savior and God in whom I trust, led me to the Roman Catholic Church.
@boedye why would the Holy Spirit lead you to a theology that worships idols and makes for themselves graven images? If you read the Scriptures, both old and new Testament, why would you be praying or communicating with the dead? Why do your appointed male leaders have coverings over their head when praying ? Why do they enforce celibacy, which the Apostle Paul warns, is a sign of a false teacher in the end times? Why would you believe that Jesus is being crucified over and over again when you take the cup and the bread? There is so much that contradicts the Word of God, so again I ask why?
@@bjrgstre-mauger5398 Are you asking in sincerity, or rhetorically in order to give a speech that cherry picks scriptures that juxtaposes an understanding. I went to a Reformed Presbyterian Seminary, so Im well versed in Sola Scriptura.
I doubt that Wimber was a Freemason. One of his former colleagues said that his church met on Masonic premises, and that he regretted failing to advise Wimber against it.
John Wimber was a Calvary Chapel pastor before he took over the Vineyard Church. Ken Gulliksen founded the Vineyard before John Wimber came in. Lonnie Frisbee was the one God used in a powerful way on Mother's Day 1980, when a mighty move of the Holy Spirit touched the congregation in a profound way. This was the start of John Wimber's understanding of the power and work of the Holy Spirit.
Really appreciate this expose of C Peter Wagner - who I only knew formerly as simply a Fuller professor and assumed he was some sort of scholar instead of this pathetic Antichrist piece of s*** Now the scripture that a good tree brings forth good fruit but an evil tree brings forth evil fruit makes perfect sense - what came forth from Wagner was horribly Twisted, I should have known there was a problem somewhere
Good grief. I’m only just starting to learn about Peter Wagner and this is just awful. The book Bad Faith by Randall Balmer also shows how racism and preserving segregation were key motivators in activating the evangelical voting bloc in the 70s and 80s.
I don’t know how this popped up but I found myself here and watched the video. This is an interesting topic. I listened to it twice and I don’t hear racism. I heard that people groups matter. Culture matters. And the civil rights movement, as a whole, this Wagner guy saw, caused blacks to attempt to become like whites rather than to become free blacks. It was particularly noticeable to Wagner in regards to churches because of what he had seen during his missionary work with other cultures. I have read missionary stories of old and learned how much white Americans actually changed the “heathens” to become like *them* along with their acceptance of the gospel. To those people groups I bet Jesus was a white American. And it shouldn’t have been that way. We can do better. Wagner even called the whites arrogant. I am hearing culture matters even to God, and to Wagner. Jesus didn’t come to make us all like each other but Christ*like born again from above. I know America was supposed to have her own culture of assimilation. but maybe that wasn’t best for each individual church which make up the whole of the body of Christ. (Which btw should be a culture of her own. In the world but not of it) And Wagner’s description of how segregated or integrated churches should be, he based on micro societies. It’s like Paul’s letters to the churches he started. Church at Corinth was not the church at Philipi etc. they would have been different people, perhaps even different pegan cultures depending on their gods, temple(s), trading routes, geographical range etc. I mean, Athens! Was any other place like Athens? Neither Jew nor Greek, slave or free verse is in reference to how we humans lord over others. We are all one meaning we are all of the same value, equal. It doesn’t mean that one culture gets eaten up by another but that both are transformed by Christ just as each individual comes from their own “place” and is changed by the gospel. I think that’s what Wagner was seeing long before others did… or maybe still don’t? Maybe this is a deeper reason why many blacks still don’t feel equal (free) and why many whites are still arrogant. “We have not so learned Christ.”” This is what I understood from the video. Did I make it up? Lol --who am I? A random white lady. Don’t know the channel, or the Wagner guy, I don’t agree with NAR, I attend a regular church in my town because it is my town (micro society) and I am a believer in Jesus.
You present an excellent viewpoint. Based on the comments it's amazing how easily people believe whatever they're told without necessarily employing a discerning ear.
What about the part at the end where Wagner worries about blacks coming to outnumber whites in their own congregations? That rings of the whole "white genocide" idea to me. He seems afraid that whites will lose their dominant position in society.
Good info but the title of the video is unfortunately a misnomer if not deceptive. There is no hidden agenda shown in this video. Rather what is shown is a clearly spelled out incorrect view of race relation in the Church of Christ. And the very fact that the video says that Wagner view was resisted and never got its way, shows that this might have just been the indiosyncratic view of Wagner instead of that of the New Apostolic reformation as a mouvement.
I think there is a hidden agenda--this guy couches his racism and desire to keep black people down and people segregated in all this reasonable sounding writing. If there was no hidden agenda, he would say, I'm a racist, I love to act like the "white savior " that the black people need, and I want to keep black people down and separate. Instead he says, black people can be IN OUR churches, as long as they are the minority. He tried to make it sound oh so reasonable, at the same time spewing hate.
I find this information particularly disturbing and problematic. I have been part of a local, independent charismatic church, co-pastored by an interracial couple. They are both senior pastors in their own right, not just nominally. My female pastor, who is White, received her doctorate of ministry through the Wagner Institute, about 15-20 years ago. One of the foundations of the Church is to "know no man after the flesh", according to 2 Corinthians 5:16, and Galatians 3:28, which states that "...there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus". We do have an integrated, though small congregation which is primarily White, with a few Black families, and one Hispanic family. This being said, my pastors would never stand for this nonsense. We are not a NAR church, but we fo believe in the gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit, and the present day ministries of the prophet and Apostle, although they are not the same as the offices occupied by the writers of New Testament Canon.
You absolutely are a NAR church. And your female “pastor “ is in direct disobedience to God. And by the way her “ doctorate“ isn’t a real doctorate it’s from Wagner which is not an accredited school!!!!!!!!
Female pastor? That's not biblical. And Galatians 3:28 doesn't allow women pastors. That's only about salvation. For pastors Titus 1 applies. And 1 Tim 2 :12 forbids women pastors
JOHN, I NEED HELP ON SOME RESEARCH AND I WOULD BE WILLING TO PAY YOU A FEE TO FIND THIS FOR ME BECAUSE IT RELATES TO MY ELDERLY PARENTS BEING DECEIVED BY THIS CULT. ONE OF THE FALSE PROPHETS IN MY FAMILIES CHURCH IS CONNECTED TO SEE PETER WAGNER, AND ONE OF HIS STUDENTS. ANYWAY, I WOULD LIKE TO ESTABLISH THAT THEY ARE CONNECTED TO JIM JONES AND THE THING THAT I CAN'T FIND THAT I FOUND ONCE BEFORE was see Peter Wagner saying that he is connected to the ladder ramp and that they made some mistakes "all pioneers do" this video is very difficult for me to find now and I have been looking for over a year to re-find it can you please help me it could really help me to help my elderly parents. Thank you.
@@LeavingtheMessage thank you, but I did not see the video that I was looking for the video that I am looking for is where Peter Wagner directly mention the ladder rain, can you help me locate that video please?
Please pray for my brother who
Has been involved in the Nar for many years now.
Thank you!
Your research is deep, brother. The details and information presented is overwhelming.
Kansas City is living this.
I live in the KC area. Going to AOG church for the last 4 years. Left Lifegate Church which is steeped in NAR. The pastor graduated from Rod Parsleys College.
I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your work! The names you drop never end, most I have never heard of. My name list to research this stuff gets longer. How am I going to get anything else done around here...lol.🤪 Thanks again, John
Yikes! That is profoundly disturbing! 😬 I hadn't the foggiest.
I left the NAR 4 years ago
Thank God for your deliverance!
👍👍👍
Thank God that was about the same time I left and a heaviness has been lifted off my shoulders my church was all about war war war they were steeped in works and also deliverance ministries there was always a demon in your generational bloodline that you needed to be delivered from I thank God for delivering me I am free!
@@mtal5042
Like leaving any cult - the further you get out the more recognize just how insane that shit is...and that someone is making bank off the whole ideological grid...major drama-queens!
One big entertainment for poor, ignorant gullible souls - speaking one who escaped a pentecostal cult before it exploded in my late 20s
Amen! Wise Decision! God Bless!
Christ - " Know ye not The Lord Thy God is in you." ... " it is NOT ME but The Father IN ME that does the work." God - "As ye do unto another ye have done unto me."
TONGUES IS A SIGN TO THE UNBELIEVING
Real tongues, not babble.
Do a word study in the Greek to get the translation of "tongues."
THANKS KAREN
@@knowsnugget3321 And now we know where you're at spiritually.
@@fphlflash GROW UP DIM WIT!
Listening to it right now. So far it is accurate. I studied under Wagner at Fuller in the early 90's. Happy to answer any questions here.
Excellent work - thank you!
This channel is top shelf good!!! Thank you for your research
I am dealing with a I think hundreds of people including young women too who think they are Apostles or Prophets today !
The problem is that these people hear God when God is silent.
I'm noticing the arrogance in a lot of these and how they handle themselves. It's appalling, the egos I see
What's so tricky is when people perfectly mix Truth with Falsehoods... Like how we know the Apostles are just the 12+Paul. These are offices of leadership and the Apostles laid the foundation that we have been building upon ever since...
But all believers are ALSO called apostles, except it's usually translated as missionary. Like when Jesus said Go, that makes all of us "ones who are sent"
But that kind of apostle better be with a lowercase a 😂 and it better follow the same way we're all saints
Neither I nor the Family of Churches I belong to, are part of the NAR , and yet our Family, which is worldwide, believe strongly in the Fivefold ministries of Ephesians 4 and their vital relevance to the Church of The Lord Jesus Christ today!
We have an international team led by an Indian brother and several leaders of our team are black African brothers. We were offered a place in NAR but are a relational family not a network, and therefore have never joined it. The revelation of Scripture undergirds us nothing more… nothing less.
What church are you a part of?
NARS is directly pinned to the 5 folder ministries belief. Do your homework...
Amazing research. You are connecting all the dots we need to see in order to understand our world.
Had no idea Fuller had roots related to William Branom
Yikes! I had no idea that he pushed segregation.
Yeah because of course he would. I think he was absolutely crazy and as an atheist I completely disagree with what he promoted.
Is it me, or is this guy looking like Colonel Sanders from KFC?
An uncanny resemblance. But not as good at business, me thinks.
One of the most obvious challenges to Wagner's homogeneous group principle is the early church. The early church was made up of Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. There were no separate churches for the Gentiles. Both were placed together, and Paul's letters clearly indicate he was addressing a mixed church.
Wow - someone Mike Bickle and ihop are affiliated with
No wonder, all blatant heretics. And now Bickle is in trouble, the Hellsong thing, seggsual assault, ouch
Deus é maior sempre
NAR roots reach right back to the Garden.
It is so crazy that its hard to believe...😢 madness
✅ interesting
I am not trying to be disagreeable. I know that John Wimber founder of the Vineyard was Quaker before becoming envangelical then Vineyard. I am not so sure that Wagner was a Quaker do you have the research on this as I am sure that Wagner was from another Proestant denomination.
I thought Wagner was a Congregationalist and John Wimber was a Quaker.
We in the holy catholic and apostolic church... still have these offices.
If you read the New Testament and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you. You will find that the Catholic Church opposes the Holy Scriptures on so many levels. If you trust and believe that Jesus Christ was the Promised Messiah, the Son of God who died for our sins, rose again and is seated with the Father then I suggest you read His Word. No one can come to the Father except through Him. He is the Only Way
@@bjrgstre-mauger5398 How did you hear about Him?
@@bjrgstre-mauger5398 Wellsir, I have read the Holy Scriptures, and continue to read the Holy Scriptures, and the Holy Spirit who came in the name of Jesus Christ, my savior and God in whom I trust, led me to the Roman Catholic Church.
@boedye why would the Holy Spirit lead you to a theology that worships idols and makes for themselves graven images? If you read the Scriptures, both old and new Testament, why would you be praying or communicating with the dead? Why do your appointed male leaders have coverings over their head when praying ? Why do they enforce celibacy, which the Apostle Paul warns, is a sign of a false teacher in the end times? Why would you believe that Jesus is being crucified over and over again when you take the cup and the bread? There is so much that contradicts the Word of God, so again I ask why?
@@bjrgstre-mauger5398 Are you asking in sincerity, or rhetorically in order to give a speech that cherry picks scriptures that juxtaposes an understanding. I went to a Reformed Presbyterian Seminary, so Im well versed in Sola Scriptura.
John Wimber was a Quaker when he got in the religion business..Wimber a Freemason was in Nixon's Blue Lodge and church
I doubt that Wimber was a Freemason. One of his former colleagues said that his church met on Masonic premises, and that he regretted failing to advise Wimber against it.
John Wimber was a Calvary Chapel pastor before he took over the Vineyard Church. Ken Gulliksen founded the Vineyard before John Wimber came in. Lonnie Frisbee was the one God used in a powerful way on Mother's Day 1980, when a mighty move of the Holy Spirit touched the congregation in a profound way. This was the start of John Wimber's understanding of the power and work of the Holy Spirit.
So Wagner was a racist? Wow, that's dynamite... but I guess he learned from Branham.
It's sad that that is what people need to hear. Decades of false teaching doesn't seem to bother anyone
Really appreciate this expose of C Peter Wagner - who I only knew formerly as simply a Fuller professor and assumed he was some sort of scholar instead of this pathetic Antichrist piece of s***
Now the scripture that a good tree brings forth good fruit but an evil tree brings forth evil fruit makes perfect sense - what came forth from Wagner was horribly Twisted, I should have known there was a problem somewhere
I can't help but think, NAR is setting up to be the religious arm of djt's return to power.
The Catholic Church along with her daughters one of which is the NAR will be the church of the Antichrist during the tribulation.
Good grief. I’m only just starting to learn about Peter Wagner and this is just awful. The book Bad Faith by Randall Balmer also shows how racism and preserving segregation were key motivators in activating the evangelical voting bloc in the 70s and 80s.
I don’t know how this popped up but I found myself here and watched the video. This is an interesting topic.
I listened to it twice and I don’t hear racism. I heard that people groups matter. Culture matters. And the civil rights movement, as a whole, this Wagner guy saw, caused blacks to attempt to become like whites rather than to become free blacks. It was particularly noticeable to Wagner in regards to churches because of what he had seen during his missionary work with other cultures.
I have read missionary stories of old and learned how much white Americans actually changed the “heathens” to become like *them* along with their acceptance of the gospel. To those people groups I bet Jesus was a white American. And it shouldn’t have been that way. We can do better.
Wagner even called the whites arrogant.
I am hearing culture matters even to God, and to Wagner. Jesus didn’t come to make us all like each other but Christ*like born again from above.
I know America was supposed to have her own culture of assimilation. but maybe that wasn’t best for each individual church which make up the whole of the body of Christ. (Which btw should be a culture of her own. In the world but not of it)
And Wagner’s description of how segregated or integrated churches should be, he based on micro societies.
It’s like Paul’s letters to the churches he started. Church at Corinth was not the church at Philipi etc. they would have been different people, perhaps even different pegan cultures depending on their gods, temple(s), trading routes, geographical range etc.
I mean, Athens! Was any other place like Athens?
Neither Jew nor Greek, slave or free verse is in reference to how we humans lord over others. We are all one meaning we are all of the same value, equal. It doesn’t mean that one culture gets eaten up by another but that both are transformed by Christ just as each individual comes from their own “place” and is changed by the gospel. I think that’s what Wagner was seeing long before others did… or maybe still don’t? Maybe this is a deeper reason why many blacks still don’t feel equal (free) and why many whites are still arrogant. “We have not so learned Christ.””
This is what I understood from the video. Did I make it up? Lol
--who am I? A random white lady. Don’t know the channel, or the Wagner guy, I don’t agree with NAR, I attend a regular church in my town because it is my town (micro society) and I am a believer in Jesus.
Lord have mercy!
You present an excellent viewpoint. Based on the comments it's amazing how easily people believe whatever they're told without necessarily employing a discerning ear.
What about the part at the end where Wagner worries about blacks coming to outnumber whites in their own congregations? That rings of the whole "white genocide" idea to me. He seems afraid that whites will lose their dominant position in society.
Seems the man was right.
Right about what? I think he was wrong about almost everything.
Was he right about Todd Bentley? 😄 ua-cam.com/video/Np8wigVX7oU/v-deo.html
Good info but the title of the video is unfortunately a misnomer if not deceptive. There is no hidden agenda shown in this video. Rather what is shown is a clearly spelled out incorrect view of race relation in the Church of Christ. And the very fact that the video says that Wagner view was resisted and never got its way, shows that this might have just been the indiosyncratic view of Wagner instead of that of the New Apostolic reformation as a mouvement.
I think there is a hidden agenda--this guy couches his racism and desire to keep black people down and people segregated in all this reasonable sounding writing. If there was no hidden agenda, he would say, I'm a racist, I love to act like the "white savior " that the black people need, and I want to keep black people down and separate. Instead he says, black people can be IN OUR churches, as long as they are the minority. He tried to make it sound oh so reasonable, at the same time spewing hate.
The kingdom of hell shall not prevail.
Reformation impossible.
Where is your faith?
Catholicism vs Relativism 💫
Bendita sea la memoria del Apóstol Peter Wagner
I find this information particularly disturbing and problematic. I have been part of a local, independent charismatic church, co-pastored by an interracial couple. They are both senior pastors in their own right, not just nominally. My female pastor, who is White, received her doctorate of ministry through the Wagner Institute, about 15-20 years ago. One of the foundations of the Church is to "know no man after the flesh", according to 2 Corinthians 5:16, and Galatians 3:28, which states that "...there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female, for we are all one in Christ Jesus". We do have an integrated, though small congregation which is primarily White, with a few Black families, and one Hispanic family. This being said, my pastors would never stand for this nonsense.
We are not a NAR church, but we fo believe in the gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit, and the present day ministries of the prophet and Apostle, although they are not the same as the offices occupied by the writers of New Testament Canon.
You absolutely are a NAR church. And your female “pastor “ is in direct disobedience to God. And by the way her “ doctorate“ isn’t a real doctorate it’s from Wagner which is not an accredited school!!!!!!!!
Female pastor? That's not biblical. And Galatians 3:28 doesn't allow women pastors. That's only about salvation. For pastors Titus 1 applies. And 1 Tim 2 :12 forbids women pastors
How are the offices different ??
JOHN, I NEED HELP ON SOME RESEARCH AND I WOULD BE WILLING TO PAY YOU A FEE TO FIND THIS FOR ME BECAUSE IT RELATES TO MY ELDERLY PARENTS BEING DECEIVED BY THIS CULT. ONE OF THE FALSE PROPHETS IN MY FAMILIES CHURCH IS CONNECTED TO SEE PETER WAGNER, AND ONE OF HIS STUDENTS. ANYWAY, I WOULD LIKE TO ESTABLISH THAT THEY ARE CONNECTED TO JIM JONES AND THE THING THAT I CAN'T FIND THAT I FOUND ONCE BEFORE was see Peter Wagner saying that he is connected to the ladder ramp and that they made some mistakes "all pioneers do" this video is very difficult for me to find now and I have been looking for over a year to re-find it can you please help me it could really help me to help my elderly parents. Thank you.
william-branham.org/site/research/people/jim_jones
@@LeavingtheMessage thank you, but I did not see the video that I was looking for the video that I am looking for is where Peter Wagner directly mention the ladder rain, can you help me locate that video please?