Doesn't matter what your eschatology is all that matters is what is true. Scripture never talks about a "huge revival" but on the contrary, a falling away and rampant deception and a turning away from sound doctrine. We are there.
@@DisciplesLifestyle Thats not describing a "great revival" on earth, it is all of the people all throughout history who have ever been saved, including those who came out of the tribulation. Obviously as things get darker, the light will shine brighter BUT the type of "revival" hyper-charismatics envision is a strange hyper "signs and wonders" focused, people falling over and babbling and huge conferences. That is not a revival, it is apostasy.
@@htebazileeilsel2293there were always revivals in 2000 years of church history! There was a huge revival over all the unreached countries in the last 40 years but we self centered western high theological Christians have not noticed: so the predictions came true but not as expected: David Garissons book describes those revivals in his book church planting movements. And if you studied church history in the Wesleyan revival in the Salvation Army were those phenomenons too, so relax a bit in your hyper judgmental critics!
Exactly: 1 John 2:19 19 They left us, but they were never really with us. If they had been, they would have stuck it out with us, loyal to the end. In leaving, they showed their true colors, showed they never did belong.
I was apart of a NAR church (unknowingly) where I was told that certain people were called to be "kingdom financers" and then I was manipulated for money. It's sad and very dangerous the way some of these words are used! But in my healing process, I've found your channel to be very refreshing and informative. Thank you!
In my fifty years as a charismatic, I've received healing, emotional healing, and deliverance, and I've experienced love, peace, and joy. But I've also seen far more false prophecy than true, I've seen a lot of pastoral authoritarianism and abuse, lying, cheating, fleecing, and toxic teaching. I don't expect perfection and I still believe in 'subsequence and evidence' but contemporary charismaticdom makes christianity look and feel extremely ugly. It's so riddled with excess, error, confusion, gnosticism, and contradictions that I can't recommend it anymore at all.
The beautiful thing about true biblical Christianity is we’re offering Jesus as the way the truth and the life, then upon receiving the Holy Spirit we then need discernment to work out our walk with Him ✌️
We have to discerne for not all charismatic utterance is the same: we have to watch “name and clame”preachers and the “faith movement” has strongly gone astray: specially Copeland and Benny Hin! And those Kenneth Hagin’s decouple! We cannot put all things in the same bottle!
"i declare, i decree" more like a provocative prayer than a declarative. "Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God." Philippians 4:5-6
@@DillonJan umm… declare and decree are declarations by definition. “NAR-heavy Apostle’s” who decree and declare, their words carry the weight of prophecy for whose who listen to them. Thinking about it biblically, God alone has the authority to decree and declare with any power behind the words.
Side note: I decided to listen to Bridgeway Church's Sunday service for the first time and just happened to hear an exciting announcement. Blessed by great pastors and teachers like Sam, Michael, and Josh, and praying we get more churches who are committed to Spirit and Truth.
And even there is a danger! To become over critical! There is not one Christian not one church not one movement that has the full truth, errors are found in all churches, don’t be deceived: the problem those guys could walk in is pride! We are the ones with the truth the only decerne ment!
Let people say what ever they want! This show has helped me greatly! From not growing up in the church, to getting saved, only to realize I was with NAR people! I didn't even know that was a thing... Thought what I was being taught, was just me" not understanding".... Nope! It was HOGWASH! Thank God for people just being honest & trying to help!!!
Literally the same i did grow up in church but had been away for a long time and i got saved at a ministry it was awesome then a few years back a huge shift took place and as i continued to grow and mature personally and spiritually the Lord slowly started revealing to me truth im so thankful that now i have confirmation and a terminology for what i was sensing in my Spirit but lacked understanding of what NAR is...thank you @remnantradio
It's crazy how much people grow up like this, I'm the 2nd person under this thread to say this was my exact trajectory. Only I'm still sifting through the mud trying to recover what's biblical and what's not. I hope and pray ppl going through these things don't become cold to the Holy Spirit, wonky churches don't lessen His power working miraculously TODAY.
We are THE BODY. problem is, I can’t even find a, per se, “pastor.” I finally just left the building 14 years ago after 40 years in it. Those “leaders” had no clue who I was (and it was a small congregation and I was on the worship and prayer teams). Now for last 8 years I’ve been in a home group. The host is pretty much my pastor. (I’m 74).
This is my most watched youtube channel, I also support you on patreon for some time now. I have learned so much, so thank you - word of caution, I’ve noticed lately that Josh speaks with disdain or embarrassment of his Pentecostal upbringing. That now that he’s attending a baptist church he has so much more discernment. Love you Josh- just maybe be careful? It comes off arrogant. Not every Pentecostal church or Pentecostal believer is the same. There’s so many episodes that focus in on charismatics and charismatic abuses- what about dissecting reformed teaching and “catch phrases”, (Holy Spirit swapped for “providence”) what about they’re exegesis? (Johnny Mac through Corinthians) How about how many people of that circle idolize John MacArthur, Voddie Baucham etc. And would never question anything they would have to say and take it all as though it’s the gospel truth. Ever hear them talk about the MacArthur bible commentary? They practically start drooling. And at they’re reformed conversion they suddenly make a demonic heretic of every Pentecostal or charismatic believer. But who would dare speak against John MacArthur right? Maybe….. because the whole Baptist/reformed circle treat him like a…. Dare I say…. apostle??? (Small a ) He has a level of power and authority in those churches that elevate him much like NAR churches do with they’re “apostle”
Yep. Just like the folks who call out "right wing" apostasy but ignore or promote "left wing" apostasy or visa versa..John MacArthur is SO incorrect on many different things and idk why anyone listens to him.
We should stay far away from conforming to and identifying as ANY denomination and simply be followers of the Way(Jesus). Sectarianism is sin and carnal!
@@htebazileeilsel2293 1 Corinthians 3:4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe-as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I agree, but yet.. I can see why we have them? We do have different “expressions”, however, as believers, let’s not take our preferences and comforts and elevate them over others. Like “Baptist are so much better then Pentecostals because of they’re reverence of the word of God” that’s not true of course- both churches elevate different points of scripture and they’re style of worship is formed out of that.
@@chelseybushore3740 "For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are *divisions* among you. And I believe it in part, for >there must be factions among you< in order that those who are >genuine< among you may be recognized." ** 1 Corinthians 11:17-19 We need to implore followers of Christ to turn away from denominationalism if they truly love and follow Jesus and allow the Scripture to teach us and correct us and get us on the same page. We must seek God for wisdom together and know Scripture intimately. Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would "guide us into all the truth" Paul also wrote: "I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, **that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you,** but that you be >>united in the same mind and the same judgment."
This is fascinating. I have a database of over 30,000 sermon transcripts set up for key-word analysis, and I am adding more. I'm going to try these words in a few weeks to see what happens.
@@lema2262 We are putting together transcripts from sermons and online discussion posts to look at topics related to religion and right-wing extremism. Still a lot of work to do to get this all assembled. Probably the first sermon results will appear in grad student work and conference papers over the next year. Some work will be "big data" while other pieces will be detailed analysis of text.
@@statisticspenguin9371 is this related to all religions like Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism or just those that profess Christianity as their religion of choice?
@@andrewhambling Sermons: Primarily Protestant, both conservative and mainline. Also have some web broadcasts. Extremist web sites: Multiple religious traditions, through all the sites are English language, which limits the amount of non-Western material.
My experience was similar to Michael's (after being saved outside the church), finding myself in what was a wonderful fellowship that encouraged the development of the gifts God gave but eventually lost its way in the NAR stream. After coming out of that I found myself again in the place God wanted me to be - a fellowship that rightly handled the word of God. It was there that the damage done through the excesses of my first fellowship was undone. However, everything was done through the pastor and there was not much, if any, room for the gifts. I never believed there was much true faith there because nobody would evangelise, as if they themselves weren't at all sure of God beyond what they read and just hoped was true. I finally got out of there when they shut the church doors for a long time and obeyed every mandate imposed upon them - as if government authority trumped God's authority. There was great fear at that fellowship and I stood alone as one warning them to enquire of God. I'm grateful to God for both fellowships and hope to find a fellowship soon that walks in the Spirit whilst upholding the authority of Scripture. It really shouldn't be one or the other. Please pray for me ✝️
God is teaching you. We learn from rejection, misuse and abuse. God has a higher goal in our lives than just our well being. We are soldiers in his Armee, so he trains us as recruits, to stand and fight. We get hurt in order to forgive and love, we get deceived to learn to descerne etc so go on hold to the lord and be strong in him!
First of all I want to thank you guys for your show and doing episodes like this that highlight the inconsistency in charismatic/ Pentecostal churches and seek to bring people in it to a more unified biblical perspective. I commend you for doing this show I think it’s extremely important and I like how you get contributions from so many theologians from different denominations. Excellent. 👍🏼 First question; Everything you talked about in this episode I have heard coming out of Bethel church teaching including all the words used and some of the weird “angelic” visitations where some of their leaders have spoken about these in testimony. Bethel are also major supporters of the passion translation. Do you consider Bethel NAR? Second question, When Todd Bentley was getting his “apostolic inauguration” during the Lakeland revival, there was a group of “apostles” on the stage all speaking into Todd Bentley and prophesying into his ministry and him personally. Are these apostles part of the NAR? Last question; this is a long one I’m sorry. Will you be having an episode discussing Lakeland and what happened on that stage that night, including all the prophecies or words spoken to Todd and the fruit of what came of that whole situation and whether or not any of the apostles have apologised for what happened about how wrong they all were in hindsight. Thanks again 🙏 for what all you guys are doing as I think it’s extremely important. Some of my cessationist brothers might scoff at what you guys do but I commend you blokes for at least trying to discuss the issues within the charismatic community and try to find a balance with biblical truth. Who knows if this was happening sooner I might not have left the charismatic “realm”. 🤣 Anyway, keep up the great work and God bless 🙏 Andrew from Melbourne Australia 🇦🇺
Hi dear brother, when prophecies are spoken out of somebody that never means they all come true. Prophecies are all conditional: “if you stay in humility, if your heart stays teachable, if you follow the Lord etc etc etc…. What happens with Todd Bentley is very simple: because his extraordinary gifts he has been put in a place of authority to soon! And instead of fathering him, people started to follow him like a guru then came pride into his heart, with the pride unteachability and he was not tested and corrected so deceiving spirits could enter in! That happens When a young Christian is given an extraordinary gift, he needs a extraordinary subordination under a spiritual father or mother, instead those people are given authority in the church no submission and that is the ideal place to bring a gifted person to fall and with them all the congregation that follows the guy: be aware of the spirit of Absalom.
@@grace4peace Greetings from Melbourne Australia 🇦🇺. Thank you for your reply to me personally. I truly appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts on Todd Bentley. Your answer is predicated by the presumption that Todd had some form of extraordinary gift from God. How is it possible that our thrice Holy God would give a gift to someone that was a false teacher and an antichrist? We know that many say they are anointed as did Todd, but was he? Jesus told us we shall know them by their fruit. Matthew 7:15-20 | NKJV 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Todd's fruit was rotten/bad fruit so clearly, he was NEVER a good tree but a bad tree. Otherwise, he would have produced good fruit as Jesus explained so clearly to us. Todd would talk many times about being anointed or feeling the anointing and he would shake his head from side to side so as to make people think he was feeling the Holy Spirit upon himself. But the Bible warns about people that claim of being anointed. Matthew 24:23-24 | NKJV 23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christ’s and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Secondly you also assume he wasn't mentored or fathered. He was involved in ministry way before we saw him with tattoos and biker boots. He was a clean-cut young preacher (no tattoos and no biker boots) as far back as 2001 travelling around the world as part of the fresh fire team with very well know charismatic leaders. That's why he was such a sought-after speaker at different churches because he was friends with them all. A lot of people assumed he had a wild past of being a bad guy biker in his youth and raising hell but no, he was a clean-cut preacher man when in his early 20's. He seemed to have changed his persona along the way to be more cutting edge to the youngsters and gullible people that would assume every word that came out of his mouth was truthful. The facts are he was already in trouble with the law in Canada for being a child fiddler as a teenager. Now that should have set off some alarm bells and had some red flags waving for anyone with any modicum of discernment but not for everyone involved in the prophetic ministry. They didn't have any inkling that anything was wrong with him. You would have to seriously ask the question about the whole prophetic movements ability to discern or exert any kind of legitimate authority by realising early on he wasn't qualified for any type of public ministry. Same could be said for Mike Bickle and ihopkc too. So much for any word of knowledge in that community. Thirdly, you say to be aware of “the spirit of Absalom”, why? Isn't he dead? Why must I be aware of his spirit if none of the New Testament writers warned me about a thing such as the “spirit of Absalom”? The epistle of James does mentions that we are tempted when we are drawn away by our own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. In relation to Todd, he most probably had an ulterior motive as to why he wanted to be involved in the particular ministry he was involved in as to wield his influence via his manipulative methods of persuasion. Unfortunately, not much discernment in the prophetic movement that could see how unqualified he was for any ministry role. Many that profess to be Christian are illiterate to biblical orthodoxy. Not understanding basic fundamental doctrines nor understanding church history and particular heresy's that the church has dealt with in the course of history. Some people will just believe what any “preacher” tells them on the stage instead of asking one simple question, is this preacher rightly handling this text of scripture? In its context?” Other questions one may consider also; Are they faithfully exegeting the text? or is this a good example of eisegesis? Are they giving a proper distinction between law and gospel? Am I hearing about Christ and His finished work or am I hearing anecdotes? How many stories have I heard about what this “preacher” did at some other time and in some other place? The whole Lakeland “revival” was a complete failure in absolutely every facet. How no one in the charismatic community has done a whole exposition or documentary on the whole thing as to avoid anything like it happening again is beyond me. It should be dissected and studied and taught so as to know exactly how to never do a “revival”. Thanks again for your time. God bless, Andrew.
Hah, the NAR is like some group of kids roleplaying as Christian-y superheroes. "Kingdom Shift Portal Birthing Atmosphere Activate! Fresh Revelation Awakened, Declared and Received!" "Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud, and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it." - Paul, to the Colossians.
Re billion soul harvest. I read a post on Facebook saying everyone wants a harvest but no one wants to plant. Let's just plant and let God do the saving.😊
I'm Pentecostal, so this isn't coming from a cessationist p.o.v. but Prophecy does seem like something you cannot train for. You can train on hearing God's voice, but not prophecy because either God speaks or He doesn't. If a "Thus saith the LORD" isn't from the mouth of the LORD then worse case scenario the person just made themselves a false prophet and best case scenario they greatly sinned by prophesying from the flesh.
I would love to see you guys do a comparison of NAR Leadership. And that was reform or say Baptist. Where they have the the Moses principal. Where are there is a leader and he's leading everybody and we follow what he has to say. Because you have all these people out there freaking out about NAR. But you don't really talk about the spiritual abuses of non-charismatic churches
I’m just seeing this one. I agree that we shouldn’t be trying to deal with territorial if that’s what NAR calls. We should be standing in God’s strength, with our armor and praying for the Lord’s help. For powers of darkness challenging us here on the earth, we should deal with it just as Jesus said we should and the early church gives some examples of this including Paul. This is good help for me about NAR. I will use this show as my starting point to understand this movement.
lol. Love it. The captions spelled out GNAR…. so I guess that’s the Gnu Apostolic Reformation. Sorry. Not sorry. I’m counting on you having a sense of humour
Hey guys, I really hope you see this but would you guys do an episode on the third temple? I saw the news that Israel is planning on beginning building on it supposedly. I don't honestly know a lot about it but I would love to learn about it
Thank you guys for putting out the truth. I appreciate that you can make a difference between "Spirit- filled " folks from ones that have gone beyond the scripture and really are separating the church.
The word “door “ in Revelation 4:1 is defined in the Strong’s concordance: G2374 (Strong) θύρα thura thoo'-rah Apparently a primary word (compare “door”); a portal or entrance (the opening or the closure, literally or figuratively): - door, gate. Total KJV occurrences: 39
I will not tell you what to do, but I can tell you what I would do. I have a long history in nar, but have recently woken up to a lot of error that I was a part of. I, first of all, did a lot of research into my church, and what they really believed. I was honestly shocked. Then I started questioning things, and then I was ghosted bad. I think if I had stayed, I would have have been thrown out, for questioning authority. I am not saying your church is like that at all, but it doesn't hurt to ask questions. Blessings to you, may God give you grace.
Looking at Paul’s letters, it seems he was the final authority in all the churches he started, no? He seems to give direction as though he was. I’m not into NAR but it looks like there was apostolic authority in the first century church.
The NAR vocabulary? What about the New Apostolic Paradigm, Five Fold Ministry, spiritual baptism, glossalia or Continuationism? All kind of fits since people in the NAR have called Pentecostals and Charismatics as cessationists.
How about you do some catch words that you find in reform or Baptist Church. Or the what I call charismatic with a seatbelt on people. Like John MacArthur Mike Winger, Ruslan, John Piper, Justin peters. This whole group of discernment minister
I have heard in a couple of different videos your definition of an Apostle and I think it is not correct to say it is essentially the same a someone who starts churches or is a missionary. I understand, in modern western Christianity, it is not well accepted that someone could be an Apostle. I would differentiate between The Apostles, the 12, and the apostles that came later but I think there are some key attributes that cross over from the Apostles and the apostles. I am not ready to write a long thesis on it here in the comments but I do think this should be discussed more.
Totally agree. Plus, not all missionaries plant churches. I’ve been a missionary for several decades. I’m not an apostle. And I’ve never planted a church. Not sure if that’s a thing in his church??? Plus plus…not all missionaries are actually ‘sent’. They just go for many reasons.
When I meet a self proclaimed apostle, I ask them who God told them to go to. If apostle means sent one, they should know where they are sent. I still think missionary is the same thing but most of the time, without any power.
I would just make note that some of these words, for example "portals", have very real and distinctive meanings in occult circles and that is also how they are used in NAR. So, although the average believer might not bat an eye at some of these terms, someone who has knowledge about the occult will definitely see a more nefarious purpose in their using such terminology. I would also not necessarily assume that NAR folks are "brothers and sisters in Christ". If they were saved before becoming involved in NAR, great, but if they believe that they came to faith in Christ in a Gospel-less church, then that is decidedly, no.
Question can people who before they get born again have any spiritual gifts before they get saved? Example some strong intuition and when they get saved they gifted with visions etc
If spiritual gifts are manifestations of the spirit given for the common good of the body of Christ, i don’t think unsaved individuals can have them. They may have unique abilities (i’d argue everyone has at least one thing they’re really good at), but i’d explain that as an innate ability or a learned skill or a personality tendency.
People can have supernatural abilities and experiences but if it doesn't honor Christ it's from a demonic source. All pagan witchcraft, sorcery, divination is demonic in nature that's why the scriptures condemn it. If someone sees the dead or something like that and claim it is from God, ask them about their background, if they ever did tarot cards, ouija boards or stuff like that. By dabbling with these things you open yourself up to demonic oppression and by repenting from it and deliverance prayer you can deal with these influences in people's lives.
Stoked to see you on AG Spirit & Fire. Also would like to see you interview Andrew Selley from F12 Global, have you heard of them? Started in South Africa, now all over the globe, also in the USA.
Just described my childhood in a list of buzzwords. I cannot begin to explain the insanity that I have witnessed. Grew up in the Vineyard - SoCal - 1990s. If you know you know. The hype is maddening.
Vineyard isn’t NAR though bro. Even Baptists scholars that hate us write about how we aren’t NAR. But in the 90’s I was in a fundamentalist youth group so I can’t speak to what vineyard was like then.
@@mikefoster7366 Vineyard isn’t technically NAR. However, the Vineyard is what is considered “pastor led”. This means the pastor can run the show how they want with little to no oversight, save for an “elder board”, which is usually comprised of yes men. This means, if a pastor is influenced by NAR theology - it will be promoted. There is so much crossover between Vineyard/Bethel/IHOP/Morning Star/H-Rock/PIHOP. I was attending one Vineyard where people like Todd White and Georgian Banov would regularly be invited to speak. And there was so much hype and build up about “this person being an apostle” so “ooh ahh” and “do whatever they say”. There was a gross “don’t speak against the Lord’s anointed” culture. The “prophets” were treated the same. I still attend a Vineyard and it is definitely not NAR but we still get guest speakers from time to time that are blatantly from NAR circles. So yeah, Vineyard may not be “NAR” but Vineyard is definitely in bed with NAR, with little pockets of being un-NAR. This is coming from a middle aged lifetime of first hand observation and experiences. Some good, some wicked, mostly deceptive and confusing.
@@jonb1671 oh got ya man! Yeah I’ve been a little disillusioned lately as I’ve learned many vineyard churches aren’t like the one I’m at. Our Pastor changed our bylaws when he came on to make it so it’s not pastor led. But I understand what you mean now, thank you man!
I don't believe the NAR philosophies, never decreed or declared anything into existence, I despise the false prosperity gospel and don't promote visits to heaven, I've never 'ushered' the Holy Spirit or spoken to an 'angel''... how did I make NAR Connections list? Strange
Josh is pretty unfair in his assessment of Bob Jones. To constantly mention his moral failing which happened literally decades before his passing. And to claim he didn't finish well, because he encouraged traveling to heaven is unfair. You can argue the Bible doesn't encourage people to travel to heaven neither does it discourage it. You can have an opinion that you think it is dangerous, but it is not explicitly unblibical, so for you to elevate your opinion that it isn't safe to the standard is both judgemental and arrogant. Last point to constantly bring up a man's moral failing without bringing up his many victories both in prophecy and ministry is also unfair and does not seem right.
And y'all are talking about the structure of ihopkc...yep...you didn't see it then...and most people from the outside didn't...BUT MB was definitely The Man on top making all the decisions. 😢
You guys should make a trip to Kansas City and check out IHOP, International House of Prayer with Mike Bickle. While you’re here, also examine some of the other huge moves like Unity Village in Lee’s Summit, MO, and also Restoration Branch (Joseph Smith). Kansas City/Independence, MO is a huge hub for the beginnings of spiritual movements. (Edit-also Brian Zahnd is here)
I agree with the concept that words should clarify meaning and not obscure it but nothing wrong with any of those words. I don't think attempting to control language is very wise. Did you know people wanted to remove John 1:1 out of the Bible because the concept of Logos went back to Greek philosophy and religion, glad those people didn't succeed
Really important show to clarify between charismatics and with the NAR group who, also, really are Kingdom Now, so their End Times is open ended and the Prophets are in Charge of WHEN Jesus can return. Their unbiblical view of the final prophecies of the end are not good.
Sometimes in a church the top man would trust his appointed leaders to be shepherding & managing people & to my observation usually the middle management level are the cause of abuse & mis representation of the ministry but because of relationship with the top man they many times get away from hurting people
Re NAR... what I see is power hunger. All of their teachings focus on winning. But the Bible focuses on love, truth, hope, faith. Again, let's preach and let God do the winning. Power and glory belong to God not us.
@ it is sad 😢 I’ve been going through your videos (I only recently “found” y’all, bc I saw an interview on Wake Up & Win) but by category, since it’s like five years worth of stuff. Doing the NAR ones right now, but I will look into your IHOP KC response videos next. Thank you, btw; I’m enjoying your videos!
Why can't an all powerful god have exactly the kind of creation that he wants instead of assembling an army of supporters to fight for him? Maybe he likes action and drama instead of perfection.
Another great show. Personally, I can't stand any of the vernacular common to the NAR movement. I've tried to be charitable but it just rubs me the wrong way.
How can you frequently have that guy from Bethel on and people who are of the NAR and never seem to actually warn against them but then do an episode like this?
Joshua has a background in the assemblies of God but I don't know if he identifies with that denomination anymore. I think one of them is some sort of charismatic Baptist as odd as that might sound. I think they would both identify as second wave charismatics but don't take anything I'm saying to the bank. This is all just from my memory and I apologize if I misrepresenting anything.
I (Josh) belong to a SBC church, I no longer hold to multiple distinctive of the AOG. Both of my cohost are apart of non-denom churches. Roundtree was just adopted as the new pastor of Bridgeway church in OKC. I’m not sure if they have a denominational affiliation.
"Billion Soul Harvest"... yeah.. no neferious undertones there at all. Who would be against the billion soul harvest. Granted, sounds like an avengers level threat, but go for it.
These guys really have no clue what the NAR is. Crazy to think that they have the audacity to talk on something they know nothing about. Talk about scratching the surface.
I'm watching this 2 years after this conversation. At 43:09 y'all are talking about your respect for MB. I feel so sad 😢 bc I'm in the future knowing the scandal that has happened and all the sa that MB has done over the decades! It's also this strange feeling I have....like I'm in the future talking to you in the past....strange. But of course you are in the now and this conversation is from the past. I wonder how much of what we have believed and put out there is being completely deconstructed so we can return to the most important thing. But again...y'all seem to stay centrally focused on the true Gospel....
Interesting question. I've always wondered about Deere's "baptism of the Holy Spirit" but no need to speak with tongues. Just wondering.Deere from the SB Seminary may have an underlying prejudice against tongues as evidence of outpouring of the Holy Spirit? Can you really train and teach prophecy as the utterance comes unbidden and often with just a few syllables. So after Deere visited a Methodist Church, many without Baptism of the Holy Spirit in the traditional sense began to prophecy and to hear from God--- by some holding the pencil and listening and writing, really a slippery slope. Of course, the tongues may not be the may stay of the Baptism. However, one still needs to ask Jesus with the Baptism of the Spirit and of Fire as John predicted.
I think there are many dangerous things outside in the christian World. But the passion translation is rich if you learn to think more in this time and in hebrew meaning. Portal is a door and when Jesus lives in us his power can shine through us and we can be a door for others to see god in us. But god shines in us.
50 foot angels standing in the sanctuary through the roof and everyone runs to the spot where they are supposed to be standing? Does that count? 😂 How about angel feathers (ceiling dust) bringing healing into the meeting? Gold teeth 🦷? I exodus'd a heavy NAR church in Harrisburg, Pa. All the "prophets" and "apostles" came through... ain't going back!!!
Your talking so fast interrupting each other and falling in the worse, that is very confusing specially for foereigners listening to you! I am German native speaker and I think it would be helpful clarifie the words For example: Bob Jones! Are there two of them and what is now wrong!?
Re dispensationalism; God does have a plan for Israel - but the doctrine of dispensationalism teaches that the church took over from Israel. It's incorrect.
You guys are the charismatic pot, calling the NAR kettle black. And you think that there is a scale for how wrong you are. Wrong is wrong. And the wrong starts as soon as you turn from the more sure word to seek experiences and start trusting your experiences or someone else’s “stories”over the Bible. You seem more interested in being entrenched in your position than you are in knowing the truth. I was in it in the 70’s and 80’s . scripture twisting, scandal, positive confession, greed, graft, man centered foolishness. I pray that our Lord will open your eyes and grant you repentance. You guys are cute and entertaining with an awesome set! What a waste of my time! I have Charismatic PTSD recurrence thanks to you !
I continue to be impressed with your level of discernment. Thanks for all you guys do. - J
I don't think you all realize just how you unique you are and how rare it is to find a charismatic church that is not steeped in NAR.
Doesn't matter what your eschatology is all that matters is what is true. Scripture never talks about a "huge revival" but on the contrary, a falling away and rampant deception and a turning away from sound doctrine. We are there.
I think they get that from the Bob Jones prophecy. I’ve never actually seen that in scripture either.
@@DisciplesLifestyle Thats not describing a "great revival" on earth, it is all of the people all throughout history who have ever been saved, including those who came out of the tribulation. Obviously as things get darker, the light will shine brighter BUT the type of "revival" hyper-charismatics envision is a strange hyper "signs and wonders" focused, people falling over and babbling and huge conferences. That is not a revival, it is apostasy.
@@htebazileeilsel2293 This is why it's so needed to be studied and approved. See how easy it is to take verses out of their proper context.
@@htebazileeilsel2293there were always revivals in 2000 years of church history! There was a huge revival over all the unreached countries in the last 40 years but we self centered western high theological Christians have not noticed: so the predictions came true but not as expected: David Garissons book describes those revivals in his book church planting movements.
And if you studied church history in the Wesleyan revival in the Salvation Army were those phenomenons too, so relax a bit in your hyper judgmental critics!
Exactly:
1 John 2:19
19 They left us, but they were never really with us. If they had been, they would have stuck it out with us, loyal to the end. In leaving, they showed their true colors, showed they never did belong.
I was apart of a NAR church (unknowingly) where I was told that certain people were called to be "kingdom financers" and then I was manipulated for money. It's sad and very dangerous the way some of these words are used! But in my healing process, I've found your channel to be very refreshing and informative. Thank you!
In my fifty years as a charismatic, I've received healing, emotional healing, and deliverance, and I've experienced love, peace, and joy. But I've also seen far more false prophecy than true, I've seen a lot of pastoral authoritarianism and abuse, lying, cheating, fleecing, and toxic teaching. I don't expect perfection and I still believe in 'subsequence and evidence' but contemporary charismaticdom makes christianity look and feel extremely ugly. It's so riddled with excess, error, confusion, gnosticism, and contradictions that I can't recommend it anymore at all.
Yes, I've been involved about that long too and I agree.
The beautiful thing about true biblical Christianity is we’re offering Jesus as the way the truth and the life, then upon receiving the Holy Spirit we then need discernment to work out our walk with Him ✌️
We have to discerne for not all charismatic utterance is the same: we have to watch “name and clame”preachers and the “faith movement” has strongly gone astray: specially Copeland and Benny Hin! And those Kenneth Hagin’s decouple! We cannot put all things in the same bottle!
Rasputin lunacy
You missed two huge NAR words used constantly… “declare and decree”.
And "Download"
"i declare, i decree" more like a provocative prayer than a declarative.
"Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand; do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God."
Philippians 4:5-6
Might be a little more word of faith streams ?
@@chelseybushore3740 LOL
@@DillonJan umm… declare and decree are declarations by definition. “NAR-heavy Apostle’s” who decree and declare, their words carry the weight of prophecy for whose who listen to them. Thinking about it biblically, God alone has the authority to decree and declare with any power behind the words.
Side note: I decided to listen to Bridgeway Church's Sunday service for the first time and just happened to hear an exciting announcement. Blessed by great pastors and teachers like Sam, Michael, and Josh, and praying we get more churches who are committed to Spirit and Truth.
Thanks Amy! Funny you happened to see that. Pretty cool :)
And even there is a danger! To become over critical! There is not one Christian not one church not one movement that has the full truth, errors are found in all churches, don’t be deceived: the problem those guys could walk in is pride! We are the ones with the truth the only decerne ment!
“It’s demonic congestion; I need apostolic release to get delivered.”
“Portal out of there, bro!” 😂 😂
Yes !!!!!
Let people say what ever they want! This show has helped me greatly! From not growing up in the church, to getting saved, only to realize I was with NAR people! I didn't even know that was a thing... Thought what I was being taught, was just me" not understanding".... Nope! It was HOGWASH! Thank God for people just being honest & trying to help!!!
Literally the same i did grow up in church but had been away for a long time and i got saved at a ministry it was awesome then a few years back a huge shift took place and as i continued to grow and mature personally and spiritually the Lord slowly started revealing to me truth im so thankful that now i have confirmation and a terminology for what i was sensing in my Spirit but lacked understanding of what NAR is...thank you @remnantradio
You guys are such children
It's crazy how much people grow up like this, I'm the 2nd person under this thread to say this was my exact trajectory. Only I'm still sifting through the mud trying to recover what's biblical and what's not. I hope and pray ppl going through these things don't become cold to the Holy Spirit, wonky churches don't lessen His power working miraculously TODAY.
Uh oh you used the word "shift"
We are THE BODY. problem is, I can’t even find a, per se, “pastor.” I finally just left the building 14 years ago after 40 years in it. Those “leaders” had no clue who I was (and it was a small congregation and I was on the worship and prayer teams).
Now for last 8 years I’ve been in a home group. The host is pretty much my pastor. (I’m 74).
This is my most watched youtube channel, I also support you on patreon for some time now. I have learned so much, so thank you - word of caution, I’ve noticed lately that Josh speaks with disdain or embarrassment of his Pentecostal upbringing. That now that he’s attending a baptist church he has so much more discernment. Love you Josh- just maybe be careful? It comes off arrogant. Not every Pentecostal church or Pentecostal believer is the same.
There’s so many episodes that focus in on charismatics and charismatic abuses- what about dissecting reformed teaching and “catch phrases”, (Holy Spirit swapped for “providence”) what about they’re exegesis? (Johnny Mac through Corinthians) How about how many people of that circle idolize John MacArthur, Voddie Baucham etc. And would never question anything they would have to say and take it all as though it’s the gospel truth. Ever hear them talk about the MacArthur bible commentary? They practically start drooling. And at they’re reformed conversion they suddenly make a demonic heretic of every Pentecostal or charismatic believer.
But who would dare speak against John MacArthur right? Maybe….. because the whole Baptist/reformed circle treat him like a…. Dare I say…. apostle??? (Small a )
He has a level of power and authority in those churches that elevate him much like NAR churches do with they’re “apostle”
Exactly. Discernment seems to be a one-way street with most of these people.
Yep. Just like the folks who call out "right wing" apostasy but ignore or promote "left wing" apostasy or visa versa..John MacArthur is SO incorrect on many different things and idk why anyone listens to him.
We should stay far away from conforming to and identifying as ANY denomination and simply be followers of the Way(Jesus). Sectarianism is sin and carnal!
@@htebazileeilsel2293 1 Corinthians 3:4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?
What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe-as the Lord has assigned to each his task.
I agree, but yet..
I can see why we have them? We do have different “expressions”, however, as believers, let’s not take our preferences and comforts and elevate them over others. Like “Baptist are so much better then Pentecostals because of they’re reverence of the word of God” that’s not true of course- both churches elevate different points of scripture and they’re style of worship is formed out of that.
@@chelseybushore3740 "For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are *divisions* among you. And I believe it in part, for >there must be factions among you< in order that those who are >genuine< among you may be recognized." ** 1 Corinthians 11:17-19
We need to implore followers of Christ to turn away from denominationalism if they truly love and follow Jesus and allow the Scripture to teach us and correct us and get us on the same page. We must seek God for wisdom together and know Scripture intimately. Jesus told us that the Holy Spirit would "guide us into all the truth"
Paul also wrote: "I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, **that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you,** but that you be >>united in the same mind and the same judgment."
This is fascinating. I have a database of over 30,000 sermon transcripts set up for key-word analysis, and I am adding more. I'm going to try these words in a few weeks to see what happens.
Hi, what database is this?
@@lema2262 We are putting together transcripts from sermons and online discussion posts to look at topics related to religion and right-wing extremism. Still a lot of work to do to get this all assembled. Probably the first sermon results will appear in grad student work and conference papers over the next year.
Some work will be "big data" while other pieces will be detailed analysis of text.
@@statisticspenguin9371 is this related to all religions like Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism or just those that profess Christianity as their religion of choice?
@@andrewhambling Sermons: Primarily Protestant, both conservative and mainline. Also have some web broadcasts. Extremist web sites: Multiple religious traditions, through all the sites are English language, which limits the amount of non-Western material.
@@statisticspenguin9371 What about left-wing extremism?
I’d love to hear you guys talk about the “kingdom now” theology that is taking over a lot of the charismatic church
My experience was similar to Michael's (after being saved outside the church), finding myself in what was a wonderful fellowship that encouraged the development of the gifts God gave but eventually lost its way in the NAR stream. After coming out of that I found myself again in the place God wanted me to be - a fellowship that rightly handled the word of God.
It was there that the damage done through the excesses of my first fellowship was undone. However, everything was done through the pastor and there was not much, if any, room for the gifts. I never believed there was much true faith there because nobody would evangelise, as if they themselves weren't at all sure of God beyond what they read and just hoped was true.
I finally got out of there when they shut the church doors for a long time and obeyed every mandate imposed upon them - as if government authority trumped God's authority. There was great fear at that fellowship and I stood alone as one warning them to enquire of God.
I'm grateful to God for both fellowships and hope to find a fellowship soon that walks in the Spirit whilst upholding the authority of Scripture. It really shouldn't be one or the other. Please pray for me ✝️
God is teaching you. We learn from rejection, misuse and abuse. God has a higher goal in our lives than just our well being.
We are soldiers in his Armee, so he trains us as recruits, to stand and fight.
We get hurt in order to forgive and love, we get deceived to learn to descerne etc so go on hold to the lord and be strong in him!
Im attending a church that has NAR influence. I need to sit down with the pastor. I think it shows up more in worship and some individuals.
First of all I want to thank you guys for your show and doing episodes like this that highlight the inconsistency in charismatic/ Pentecostal churches and seek to bring people in it to a more unified biblical perspective. I commend you for doing this show I think it’s extremely important and I like how you get contributions from so many theologians from different denominations. Excellent. 👍🏼
First question;
Everything you talked about in this episode I have heard coming out of Bethel church teaching including all the words used and some of the weird “angelic” visitations where some of their leaders have spoken about these in testimony. Bethel are also major supporters of the passion translation. Do you consider Bethel NAR?
Second question,
When Todd Bentley was getting his “apostolic inauguration” during the Lakeland revival, there was a group of “apostles” on the stage all speaking into Todd Bentley and prophesying into his ministry and him personally. Are these apostles part of the NAR?
Last question; this is a long one I’m sorry.
Will you be having an episode discussing Lakeland and what happened on that stage that night, including all the prophecies or words spoken to Todd and the fruit of what came of that whole situation and whether or not any of the apostles have apologised for what happened about how wrong they all were in hindsight.
Thanks again 🙏 for what all you guys are doing as I think it’s extremely important.
Some of my cessationist brothers might scoff at what you guys do but I commend you blokes for at least trying to discuss the issues within the charismatic community and try to find a balance with biblical truth.
Who knows if this was happening sooner I might not have left the charismatic “realm”. 🤣
Anyway, keep up the great work and God bless 🙏
Andrew from Melbourne Australia 🇦🇺
Hi dear brother, when prophecies are spoken out of somebody that never means they all come true. Prophecies are all conditional: “if you stay in humility, if your heart stays teachable, if you follow the Lord etc etc etc….
What happens with Todd Bentley is very simple: because his extraordinary gifts he has been put in a place of authority to soon! And instead of fathering him, people started to follow him like a guru then came pride into his heart, with the pride unteachability and he was not tested and corrected so deceiving spirits could enter in!
That happens
When a young Christian is given an extraordinary gift, he needs a extraordinary subordination under a spiritual father or mother, instead those people are given authority in the church no submission and that is the ideal place to bring a gifted person to fall and with them all the congregation that follows the guy: be aware of the spirit of Absalom.
@@grace4peace
Greetings from Melbourne Australia 🇦🇺.
Thank you for your reply to me personally. I truly appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts on Todd Bentley.
Your answer is predicated by the presumption that Todd had some form of extraordinary gift from God.
How is it possible that our thrice Holy God would give a gift to someone that was a false teacher and an antichrist? We know that many say they are anointed as did Todd, but was he? Jesus told us we shall know them by their fruit.
Matthew 7:15-20 | NKJV
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Todd's fruit was rotten/bad fruit so clearly, he was NEVER a good tree but a bad tree. Otherwise, he would have produced good fruit as Jesus explained so clearly to us.
Todd would talk many times about being anointed or feeling the anointing and he would shake his head from side to side so as to make people think he was feeling the Holy Spirit upon himself. But the Bible warns about people that claim of being anointed.
Matthew 24:23-24 | NKJV
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christ’s and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Secondly you also assume he wasn't mentored or fathered.
He was involved in ministry way before we saw him with tattoos and biker boots. He was a clean-cut young preacher (no tattoos and no biker boots) as far back as 2001 travelling around the world as part of the fresh fire team with very well know charismatic leaders. That's why he was such a sought-after speaker at different churches because he was friends with them all.
A lot of people assumed he had a wild past of being a bad guy biker in his youth and raising hell but no, he was a clean-cut preacher man when in his early 20's. He seemed to have changed his persona along the way to be more cutting edge to the youngsters and gullible people that would assume every word that came out of his mouth was truthful.
The facts are he was already in trouble with the law in Canada for being a child fiddler as a teenager. Now that should have set off some alarm bells and had some red flags waving for anyone with any modicum of discernment but not for everyone involved in the prophetic ministry. They didn't have any inkling that anything was wrong with him.
You would have to seriously ask the question about the whole prophetic movements ability to discern or exert any kind of legitimate authority by realising early on he wasn't qualified for any type of public ministry.
Same could be said for Mike Bickle and ihopkc too. So much for any word of knowledge in that community.
Thirdly, you say to be aware of “the spirit of Absalom”, why? Isn't he dead? Why must I be aware of his spirit if none of the New Testament writers warned me about a thing such as the “spirit of Absalom”?
The epistle of James does mentions that we are tempted when we are drawn away by our own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
In relation to Todd, he most probably had an ulterior motive as to why he wanted to be involved in the particular ministry he was involved in as to wield his influence via his manipulative methods of persuasion. Unfortunately, not much discernment in the prophetic movement that could see how unqualified he was for any ministry role.
Many that profess to be Christian are illiterate to biblical orthodoxy. Not understanding basic fundamental doctrines nor understanding church history and particular heresy's that the church has dealt with in the course of history.
Some people will just believe what any “preacher” tells them on the stage instead of asking one simple question, is this preacher rightly handling this text of scripture? In its context?”
Other questions one may consider also;
Are they faithfully exegeting the text? or is this a good example of eisegesis? Are they giving a proper distinction between law and gospel? Am I hearing about Christ and His finished work or am I hearing anecdotes? How many stories have I heard about what this “preacher” did at some other time and in some other place?
The whole Lakeland “revival” was a complete failure in absolutely every facet. How no one in the charismatic community has done a whole exposition or documentary on the whole thing as to avoid anything like it happening again is beyond me.
It should be dissected and studied and taught so as to know exactly how to never do a “revival”.
Thanks again for your time.
God bless,
Andrew.
Hah, the NAR is like some group of kids roleplaying as Christian-y superheroes.
"Kingdom Shift Portal Birthing Atmosphere Activate!
Fresh Revelation Awakened, Declared and Received!"
"Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud, and they are not connected to Christ, the head of the body. For he holds the whole body together with its joints and ligaments, and it grows as God nourishes it." - Paul, to the Colossians.
Christian D&D! 😂
Re billion soul harvest. I read a post on Facebook saying everyone wants a harvest but no one wants to plant. Let's just plant and let God do the saving.😊
Very valid point. NAR is more concerned with dominionism and an end-times transfer of wealth. The missiology is as wrong as the theology.
So then I said... "HOW NAR-LY ARE THEY?"
ROFL
Favorite YT theology channel!!
I'm Pentecostal, so this isn't coming from a cessationist p.o.v. but Prophecy does seem like something you cannot train for. You can train on hearing God's voice, but not prophecy because either God speaks or He doesn't. If a "Thus saith the LORD" isn't from the mouth of the LORD then worse case scenario the person just made themselves a false prophet and best case scenario they greatly sinned by prophesying from the flesh.
It is a " gift " from God. You cannot train for it or " claim " it, the same applies to all the other gifts of the Spirit from God.
@@sianpearson9927 when I received a new bicycle for my birthday , I still have to Learn to ride it
@@Henriette-van-der-Ende exegesis over eisgesis. 🙏
Everything has to be looked at through the lense of scripture and scripture has to be unlocked through the revelation of Holy Spirit...
Perfectly stated.
“You need to portal out of there, bro”
🤣
We believe in portholes...on ships. They run about $40 on Amazon. - J 😉
Pretty much every guest on Sid Roth’s show.
Loved this. Sad we couldn’t go through all of them. I’m interested on your thoughts “mantle” and “fresh anointing”
I would love to see you guys do a comparison of NAR Leadership. And that was reform or say Baptist. Where they have the the Moses principal. Where are there is a leader and he's leading everybody and we follow what he has to say. Because you have all these people out there freaking out about NAR. But you don't really talk about the spiritual abuses of non-charismatic churches
Craig Keener is the Bob Ross of Christian youtube.
Change my mind!
When I hear C.K. I think of this quote from Bob “Anytime you learn, you gain.” - J
@@HeyWiseGuy This is the truest thing I've heard all day
I’m just seeing this one. I agree that we shouldn’t be trying to deal with territorial if that’s what NAR calls. We should be standing in God’s strength, with our armor and praying for the Lord’s help. For powers of darkness challenging us here on the earth, we should deal with it just as Jesus said we should and the early church gives some examples of this including Paul. This is good help for me about NAR. I will use this show as my starting point to understand this movement.
lol. Love it. The captions spelled out GNAR…. so I guess that’s the Gnu Apostolic Reformation. Sorry. Not sorry. I’m counting on you having a sense of humour
So great. lol.
🥰🤣🤣🤣🥰
Around 37:40, I’m curious as to which eschatological view teaches the end time revival and Biblical support for that?
Hey guys, I really hope you see this but would you guys do an episode on the third temple? I saw the news that Israel is planning on beginning building on it supposedly. I don't honestly know a lot about it but I would love to learn about it
It's a sign of the end times
Thank you guys for putting out the truth. I appreciate that you can make a difference between "Spirit- filled " folks from ones that have gone beyond the scripture and really are separating the church.
You guys brought a smile to face with this one I chuckled even though it’s a serious topic.
Bringing back the Biblical punishment for false prophets would cut out most of this silliness.
The word “door “ in Revelation 4:1 is defined in the Strong’s concordance: G2374 (Strong)
θύρα
thura
thoo'-rah
Apparently a primary word (compare “door”); a portal or entrance (the opening or the closure, literally or figuratively): - door, gate.
Total KJV occurrences: 39
The word “activate” has become big in our church, somethings not sitting right, sounds like old new age , any pointers would be appreciated ✌️
I will not tell you what to do, but I can tell you what I would do. I have a long history in nar, but have recently woken up to a lot of error that I was a part of. I, first of all, did a lot of research into my church, and what they really believed. I was honestly shocked. Then I started questioning things, and then I was ghosted bad. I think if I had stayed, I would have have been thrown out, for questioning authority. I am not saying your church is like that at all, but it doesn't hurt to ask questions. Blessings to you, may God give you grace.
Looking at Paul’s letters, it seems he was the final authority in all the churches he started, no? He seems to give direction as though he was. I’m not into NAR but it looks like there was apostolic authority in the first century church.
The NAR vocabulary? What about the New Apostolic Paradigm, Five Fold Ministry, spiritual baptism, glossalia or Continuationism?
All kind of fits since people in the NAR have called Pentecostals and Charismatics as cessationists.
Great conversation! Thank you!!
Surely it doesn't matter what someone's reason is for talking to dead saints? If they're talking to the dead they're talking to the dead
Agreed.
The audio on this stream is bady distorted - it sounds as if it has been hard-limited or accidentally clipped.
How about you do some catch words that you find in reform or Baptist Church. Or the what I call charismatic with a seatbelt on people. Like John MacArthur Mike Winger, Ruslan, John Piper, Justin peters. This whole group of discernment minister
This was very helpful. Thank you guys.
This was one of the best episodes
What a excellent show. Good teaching. I have so many friends that follow the NAR. Wow you guys hit the nail on the head
I have heard in a couple of different videos your definition of an Apostle and I think it is not correct to say it is essentially the same a someone who starts churches or is a missionary. I understand, in modern western Christianity, it is not well accepted that someone could be an Apostle. I would differentiate between The Apostles, the 12, and the apostles that came later but I think there are some key attributes that cross over from the Apostles and the apostles. I am not ready to write a long thesis on it here in the comments but I do think this should be discussed more.
Yeah...they are called priests🥰.....the catholic church is the one true church.
Totally agree. Plus, not all missionaries plant churches. I’ve been a missionary for several decades. I’m not an apostle. And I’ve never planted a church. Not sure if that’s a thing in his church???
Plus plus…not all missionaries are actually ‘sent’. They just go for many reasons.
I heard the words "breakthrough," "declare," "revival," etc. at my former church.
It's important to define what "apostle" means. I just met a self-proclaimed apostle yesterday. I try to avoid them.
When I meet a self proclaimed apostle, I ask them who God told them to go to. If apostle means sent one, they should know where they are sent. I still think missionary is the same thing but most of the time, without any power.
I would just make note that some of these words, for example "portals", have very real and distinctive meanings in occult circles and that is also how they are used in NAR. So, although the average believer might not bat an eye at some of these terms, someone who has knowledge about the occult will definitely see a more nefarious purpose in their using such terminology. I would also not necessarily assume that NAR folks are "brothers and sisters in Christ". If they were saved before becoming involved in NAR, great, but if they believe that they came to faith in Christ in a Gospel-less church, then that is decidedly, no.
Question can people who before they get born again have any spiritual gifts before they get saved? Example some strong intuition and when they get saved they gifted with visions etc
If spiritual gifts are manifestations of the spirit given for the common good of the body of Christ, i don’t think unsaved individuals can have them. They may have unique abilities (i’d argue everyone has at least one thing they’re really good at), but i’d explain that as an innate ability or a learned skill or a personality tendency.
People can have supernatural abilities and experiences but if it doesn't honor Christ it's from a demonic source. All pagan witchcraft, sorcery, divination is demonic in nature that's why the scriptures condemn it. If someone sees the dead or something like that and claim it is from God, ask them about their background, if they ever did tarot cards, ouija boards or stuff like that. By dabbling with these things you open yourself up to demonic oppression and by repenting from it and deliverance prayer you can deal with these influences in people's lives.
Are the "Church of God " nar?
Stoked to see you on AG Spirit & Fire.
Also would like to see you interview Andrew Selley from F12 Global, have you heard of them? Started in South Africa, now all over the globe, also in the USA.
26:45 SOUNDS like SEVEN MOUNTAINS = The New ROME
I'd be interested in you guys looking into Ian Clayton and the Sons of Thunder ministry.
Just described my childhood in a list of buzzwords. I cannot begin to explain the insanity that I have witnessed. Grew up in the Vineyard - SoCal - 1990s. If you know you know. The hype is maddening.
Vineyard isn’t NAR though bro. Even Baptists scholars that hate us write about how we aren’t NAR. But in the 90’s I was in a fundamentalist youth group so I can’t speak to what vineyard was like then.
@@mikefoster7366 Vineyard isn’t technically NAR. However, the Vineyard is what is considered “pastor led”. This means the pastor can run the show how they want with little to no oversight, save for an “elder board”, which is usually comprised of yes men. This means, if a pastor is influenced by NAR theology - it will be promoted. There is so much crossover between Vineyard/Bethel/IHOP/Morning Star/H-Rock/PIHOP.
I was attending one Vineyard where people like Todd White and Georgian Banov would regularly be invited to speak. And there was so much hype and build up about “this person being an apostle” so “ooh ahh” and “do whatever they say”. There was a gross “don’t speak against the Lord’s anointed” culture.
The “prophets” were treated the same. I still attend a Vineyard and it is definitely not NAR but we still get guest speakers from time to time that are blatantly from NAR circles.
So yeah, Vineyard may not be “NAR” but Vineyard is definitely in bed with NAR, with little pockets of being un-NAR. This is coming from a middle aged lifetime of first hand observation and experiences. Some good, some wicked, mostly deceptive and confusing.
@@jonb1671 oh got ya man! Yeah I’ve been a little disillusioned lately as I’ve learned many vineyard churches aren’t like the one I’m at. Our Pastor changed our bylaws when he came on to make it so it’s not pastor led. But I understand what you mean now, thank you man!
What's wrong with being a heresy hunter? I'm thankful for that protection à la Ephesians 5:11.
I don't believe the NAR philosophies, never decreed or declared anything into existence, I despise the false prosperity gospel and don't promote visits to heaven, I've never 'ushered' the Holy Spirit or spoken to an 'angel''... how did I make NAR Connections list? Strange
Wait do you think Matt Chandler is a biblical Christian worthy of sharing a platform with?
Josh is pretty unfair in his assessment of Bob Jones. To constantly mention his moral failing which happened literally decades before his passing. And to claim he didn't finish well, because he encouraged traveling to heaven is unfair. You can argue the Bible doesn't encourage people to travel to heaven neither does it discourage it. You can have an opinion that you think it is dangerous, but it is not explicitly unblibical, so for you to elevate your opinion that it isn't safe to the standard is both judgemental and arrogant. Last point to constantly bring up a man's moral failing without bringing up his many victories both in prophecy and ministry is also unfair and does not seem right.
This was from 2 years ago. I bet you have different opinions on Bickel now.
And y'all are talking about the structure of ihopkc...yep...you didn't see it then...and most people from the outside didn't...BUT MB was definitely The Man on top making all the decisions. 😢
NAR/Latter Rain have more than words that define them. You are showing some problems, while allowing some of the bigger ones to hide.
You guys should make a trip to Kansas City and check out IHOP, International House of Prayer with Mike Bickle. While you’re here, also examine some of the other huge moves like Unity Village in Lee’s Summit, MO, and also Restoration Branch (Joseph Smith). Kansas City/Independence, MO is a huge hub for the beginnings of spiritual movements. (Edit-also Brian Zahnd is here)
I agree with the concept that words should clarify meaning and not obscure it but nothing wrong with any of those words. I don't think attempting to control language is very wise. Did you know people wanted to remove John 1:1 out of the Bible because the concept of Logos went back to Greek philosophy and religion, glad those people didn't succeed
Just curious: Are you really charismatics or are you actually charismaniacs? Do you have thorough definitions of those terms?
Really important show to clarify between charismatics and with the NAR group who, also, really are Kingdom Now, so their End Times is open ended and the Prophets are in Charge of WHEN Jesus can return. Their unbiblical view of the final prophecies of the end are not good.
Why are seemingly most believers more bent on substituting the non biblical term “trinity” for the biblical term “Godhead”?
Sometimes in a church the top man would trust his appointed leaders to be shepherding & managing people & to my observation usually the middle management level are the cause of abuse & mis representation of the ministry but because of relationship with the top man they many times get away from hurting people
List at 14:05
Cheesy and OH YES 👍🏼 👍🏼 👍🏼
I am converting to eastern Orthodox I am done with charismatic Rasputin lunacy
I left the nar I asked the pastor if he was an apostle he said people call me an apostle and I could come under his mantel lol
Is ihop Atlanta teaches prophecy like fortune telling going out to malls 8 is also a teacher how to do it it's wrong
Re NAR... what I see is power hunger. All of their teachings focus on winning. But the Bible focuses on love, truth, hope, faith. Again, let's preach and let God do the winning. Power and glory belong to God not us.
What the heck is grave soaking?!
Watch the series on the Kansas City prophet’s and seems their opinions on some areas have changed. 👍❤️
Josh's impression of NAR at 51:35. hahahahaha
Ooops; your perspective on IHOP KC / Mike Bickle, didn’t age well 😮 43:41
Sadly, no. We’ve down four response videos on what happened. You can find them if you search IHOP and Mike Bickle on our channel.
@ it is sad 😢
I’ve been going through your videos (I only recently “found” y’all, bc I saw an interview on Wake Up & Win) but by category, since it’s like five years worth of stuff. Doing the NAR ones right now, but I will look into your IHOP KC response videos next. Thank you, btw; I’m enjoying your videos!
If I give 10 or 15 bucks a month, am I able to get you and Josh on my podcast?
Why can't an all powerful god have exactly the kind of creation that he wants
instead of assembling an army of supporters to fight for him?
Maybe he likes action and drama instead of perfection.
Another great show. Personally, I can't stand any of the vernacular common to the NAR movement. I've tried to be charitable but it just rubs me the wrong way.
How can you frequently have that guy from Bethel on and people who are of the NAR and never seem to actually warn against them but then do an episode like this?
Huba juba huba juba oh a charismatic prophecy lol
Which denomination do you belong to?
Joshua has a background in the assemblies of God but I don't know if he identifies with that denomination anymore. I think one of them is some sort of charismatic Baptist as odd as that might sound. I think they would both identify as second wave charismatics but don't take anything I'm saying to the bank. This is all just from my memory and I apologize if I misrepresenting anything.
I (Josh) belong to a SBC church, I no longer hold to multiple distinctive of the AOG.
Both of my cohost are apart of non-denom churches. Roundtree was just adopted as the new pastor of Bridgeway church in OKC. I’m not sure if they have a denominational affiliation.
"Billion Soul Harvest"... yeah.. no neferious undertones there at all. Who would be against the billion soul harvest.
Granted, sounds like an avengers level threat, but go for it.
These guys really have no clue what the NAR is. Crazy to think that they have the audacity to talk on something they know nothing about. Talk about scratching the surface.
I'm watching this 2 years after this conversation. At 43:09 y'all are talking about your respect for MB. I feel so sad 😢 bc I'm in the future knowing the scandal that has happened and all the sa that MB has done over the decades! It's also this strange feeling I have....like I'm in the future talking to you in the past....strange. But of course you are in the now and this conversation is from the past. I wonder how much of what we have believed and put out there is being completely deconstructed so we can return to the most important thing. But again...y'all seem to stay centrally focused on the true Gospel....
TheNAR light will eventually go to NAR heavy.
Do you boys think your love for Jack Deere is creating a blind spot?
Interesting question. I've always wondered about Deere's "baptism of the Holy Spirit" but no need to speak with tongues. Just wondering.Deere from the SB Seminary may have an underlying prejudice against tongues as evidence of outpouring of the Holy Spirit? Can you really train and teach prophecy as the utterance comes unbidden and often with just a few syllables. So after Deere visited a Methodist Church, many without Baptism of the Holy Spirit in the traditional sense began to prophecy and to hear from God--- by some holding the pencil and listening and writing, really a slippery slope. Of course, the tongues may not be the may stay of the Baptism. However, one still needs to ask Jesus with the Baptism of the Spirit and of Fire as John predicted.
I think there are many dangerous things outside in the christian World. But the passion translation is rich if you learn to think more in this time and in hebrew meaning. Portal is a door and when Jesus lives in us his power can shine through us and we can be a door for others to see god in us. But god shines in us.
50 foot angels standing in the sanctuary through the roof and everyone runs to the spot where they are supposed to be standing? Does that count? 😂 How about angel feathers (ceiling dust) bringing healing into the meeting? Gold teeth 🦷? I exodus'd a heavy NAR church in Harrisburg, Pa. All the "prophets" and "apostles" came through... ain't going back!!!
Fresh oil......what?! What in the world. If it doesn't sound right or make sense then it isn't the gospel.
I like John MacArthur
Your talking so fast interrupting each other and falling in the worse, that is very confusing specially for foereigners listening to you! I am German native speaker and I think it would be helpful clarifie the words
For example: Bob Jones! Are there two of them and what is now wrong!?
Pouring out a double portion of fresh oil.......😂😂😂😂 what?!
Wow. Couple cooks.
Divine Cosmology.....!!!! Spells......Occult.....
Huba juba huba juba tounges
NAR Clowns , turning Joels Prophecy in the latter rain of the Spirit, to themselves
Re dispensationalism; God does have a plan for Israel - but the doctrine of dispensationalism teaches that the church took over from Israel. It's incorrect.
You guys are the charismatic pot, calling the NAR kettle black. And you think that there is a scale for how wrong you are. Wrong is wrong. And the wrong starts as soon as you turn from the more sure word to seek experiences and start trusting your experiences or someone else’s “stories”over the Bible. You seem more interested in being entrenched in your position than you are in knowing the truth. I was in it in the 70’s and 80’s . scripture twisting, scandal, positive confession, greed, graft, man centered foolishness. I pray that our Lord will open your eyes and grant you repentance. You guys are cute and entertaining with an awesome set! What a waste of my time! I have Charismatic PTSD recurrence thanks to you !