Yeah, it fuckin' violates your ears immediately after hitting new game like whiplash after the chill main menu music. I honest to God remember that part fondly. 11/10!
Interesting video! I am not sure where Ange (or you, for that matter) is from, but I remember once reading about how the concept of morally grey or antagonistic protagonists doesn't work as well in the US because of how protagonists in fiction have been shaped there. It's always a lenses of "utter good vs utter evil". I've noticed this because as an European, a lot of fiction is morally grey, but I see all the outrage (or people simply not getting the point of the story) over darker works. I read Saya no Uta late in my VN journey so I didn't get so impressed by it, but watching your video and listening to you talk about it made me definitely appreciate it more.
Saya no Uta is the perfect short horror vn. I saw someone rate over 100 vns they read and they rated Saya no Uta at the bottom. Their top were school harem moe stuff. People's tastes are just that blinding at times.
What is up DramaAlert nation? Huge bombshell in the visual novel community when creator Adze posts a reasoned and respectful response video addressing criticisms of long-time vntuber Ange's arguments about Saya no Uta
Saya would have been able to easily kill the neighbor, but in that moment she was completelessy caught off guard. She thought what she just did was not a big deal because she could revert the change afterward. The reaction she got however and the brutality of it was completely unexpected for her. Remember that at this point she had read hundreds of books on romance and thus formed an idea of how a relation like that should be like. She had her experiences with fuminori to validify that point too. It's only after she got through that that the yoh scene is even able to exist. She remember how she felt at that momwnt and wanted to enact it on yoh for vengeance's sake.
I think that she's not actually that big and/or strong. Most of her "food" has been little animals and a newborn baby. Even when killing Yoh (who is a thin woman and most likely not as strong as an average man) she had to hide in the shadows and rely on the element of surprise
Sweet Jesus. I didn't have intention to comment, but just his FIRST POINT, where he says he needed *couple hours at least FLASHBACK... IS HE NARUTO FAN, or something?!* 😳 I am 30+ woman and I LOVE me good horror/guro, but I think, as it was 2003, whole game was more likely experiment, with how short for today standards it was... And maybe I am wrong, so call me out if so, but I think, that SnU was one of, if not first ever VNs with so potentially...Psyche-unfriendly content. There is even 4, if remember, type of censorships for graph. We discuss Saya for how BEAUTIFUL it is, metaphorically. But there is no lying, especially in 2003, or by Western localisation 2013 even...world was MUCH less desensitized, than nowadays, where news flash show us daily constant tragedy, to point, where we start rolling eyes at it. ✌️ And most importantly. IF we start with some cutesy BS story for HOURS... 1. Majority wanting horror will sign off, especially today, where many players got attention span of goldfish. 2nd and MOST importantly : game will just NOT feel same. Like, we are suppoused to BE FUMINORI. So we CAN'T see humanity in 'monsters', as it will beat purpose of seeing world through FUMINORI lenses. 😩 You are right. Your buddy ABSOLUTELY didn't got that game. Not my role to judge, BUT he probably is rather created for... Less heavy content, than slipping into madness to side with monsters. 🤷🏻♀️
What a great video, this video allowed you to delve even further into the perceptions and mindsets of the characters in the story which is how I mainly viewed it too. This + your original video on Saya makes for a pretty in depth look at how the game was built and what one is expected to think about coming out of it. I think Saya no Uta is a game that also allows for a few different ways of understanding the story or things to ponder. I like it a lot for the fact it's quite short and still manages ro accomplish that.
'Monsters making people insane from looking at them is more of a meme based on the mechanics of the Call of Cthulhu RPG than an actual representation of how people go mad in HPL's stories. Though even in the RPG Sanity damage is more of a stress mechanic where insanity is just the endpoint if you failed to manage stress properly. Monsters in the RPG only cause different levels of sanity damage because its an RPG that needs variant threat levels and Cthulhu itself is supposed to be an undefeatable boss enemy. Monsters with literal madness auras are more a thing from other RPGs that don't center mental health as a mechanic.
13:05 I've seen plenty of people having the same opinion, that it doesn't make sense that saya couldn't overpower the neighbour, but I have a few possibilities on my mind as to why that could be the case (the story doesn't really ever say the reason so I'm just speculating) 1. maybe the reason fuminori sees saya as a young girl, and the reason she relies on surprise attacks, is that she's actually rather small and not very strong? it seems to me like she heavily relies on surprise attacks and the irrational fear she inflicts on people to overpower them 2. maybe she was in shock from what was happening? she expected him to just be kind to her and he suddenly went to r*pe her, this one I'm not so sure about, she's not human, but at the same time it seems like she became almost completely human mentally from all the time she spent with Ogai 3. maybe she was still hoping that the neighbour would change his mind, or just didn't want to kill him, from my point of view she doesn't seem to kill for no reason, only to feed herself or protect her loved ones, and at that point she had enough food in the fridge for that 3.5. countering point 2. but maybe she actually DOESN'T feel like being r*ped is a horrible experience, because she's not human, so maybe for her it's okay to let it happen as long as her life is not in danger and can maybe try to reason with him once he's calmed down? anyway these are just some possible reasons I came up to justify that scene that kind of make sense in-universe? maybe the author just wanted a scene where fuminori had to save saya and I don't need all these mental gymnastics xD
It's been a while since I actually read Saya no Uta so I could be off-base here, but if I'm remembering correctly, I'm pretty sure Saya had to physically restrain both Fuminori's neighbor and Yoh when she was doing her experiments, which was my main reasoning for thinking she should have been able to get away from him. Granted, he did have crazy person strength which should not be overlooked (humans are actually ridiculously strong when the subconscious limiters get bypassed). I also feel like while Saya does gain some human-like tendencies (most notably with the storybooks convincing her that love was a prerequisite to reproduction), I still feel like she considers humans as a class beneath her (with the obvious exception of Fuminori). This is in line with the majority of Lovecraft's monsters. Like, Cthulhu isn't actually evil. Mankind is just completely inconsequential to it. So like... I don't think she goes around killing for the sake of it, but I also don't think she'd consider it wasteful to kill if it was at all convenient. And I'll also say that I think the scene with Fuminori's neighbor had other thematic purposes to it, but I can't quite put my finger on it (I'll probably need to do a re-read for that). Whatever it's going for could very well change my thoughts on this scene.
@@Adze in the neighbor's case, from the text it looks like she made him pass out in only a few seconds, while he was still paralized by fear (she was playing with his brain after all) in Yoh's case... I have no idea, although she was being experimented on live, without anesthesia, so maybe she was paralized by pain or something? i'm not sure as for how saya sees humanity... I've never read any of Lovecraft's works, but it never seemed to me as if she felt above them or anything, she didn't even know what she was, my opinion is that she just saw us as any other animal (smarter sure, but not any different from the cats she ate), and she seemed to still be rather animalistic despite her intelligence and knowledge, so maybe she just saw the world with a "the best suited survives" mentality, and was just doing what she had to to survive and to keep fuminori safe (and their nest hidden from prying eyes like Omi) I think that despite her immense knowledge and intelligence she was just too young, we don't have any clear dates but I think she must be around 2-4 years old from what I remember being specified (she spent at least 1 year with Ogai, no mention of more than that, after that she spent like 6~ months hidden in the hospital). So maybe that's just not enough for an intelligent creature to gain things like morals through experience, since she had barely 0 contact with humans outside of Ogai and Fuminori (and not like Ogai taught her anything, he was a madman), and she probably only read most stories superficially without actually stopping to think about the implications and morals in them, except romance since her instincs tell her that reproductions is something to pay atention to
i posted this comment somewhere else yesterday, but in reference to #2: 'yea lol saya basically says this explicitly. i remember her saying that every other time shes attacked someone, they've been too scared by her appearance to put up resistance. so this is her first time in a situation like that (a real fight against a human).'
You can disagree with his takes but he is consistent with what he likes atleast I guess. I am looking at his tier list appalled but at the same time it seems legit The genres he likes are properly ordered while those he isn't into get insane debuffs
I just think the design is bad on many levels with a remarkably empty world and a money system that discourages the player from actually spending any of the money they collect (due to the multiple points where you need a certain amount of money to progress, meaning you have to grind if you spent anything). There were also instances where you need to hope RNG spawns the right car nearby. One timed driving mission in particular was an instant fail if you got stuck with a slow car. Also, hard mode is horribly balanced. You can naturally recover up to (I think) 60% of your max health over time with healing items being required to go above that. Of course, the hitscan enemies can one-tap you from there if you get unlucky. It was just a very frustrating experience all around. The only part I actually liked about the game was the story and half of it felt like it was lifted straight out of the first Godfather movie.
Saya No Uta makes it clear from the very beginning that it doesn't want you to feel good.
Yeah, it fuckin' violates your ears immediately after hitting new game like whiplash after the chill main menu music.
I honest to God remember that part fondly. 11/10!
Yeah it disturbed me from beginning to end while making me interested enough to see where it goes.
Interesting video! I am not sure where Ange (or you, for that matter) is from, but I remember once reading about how the concept of morally grey or antagonistic protagonists doesn't work as well in the US because of how protagonists in fiction have been shaped there. It's always a lenses of "utter good vs utter evil". I've noticed this because as an European, a lot of fiction is morally grey, but I see all the outrage (or people simply not getting the point of the story) over darker works.
I read Saya no Uta late in my VN journey so I didn't get so impressed by it, but watching your video and listening to you talk about it made me definitely appreciate it more.
Saya no Uta is the perfect short horror vn. I saw someone rate over 100 vns they read and they rated Saya no Uta at the bottom. Their top were school harem moe stuff. People's tastes are just that blinding at times.
What is up DramaAlert nation? Huge bombshell in the visual novel community when creator Adze posts a reasoned and respectful response video addressing criticisms of long-time vntuber Ange's arguments about Saya no Uta
Let's get riiiiiiiight into the news!
What is this a reference to?
@@AngeVNs The most vile UA-camr on the platform that has existed for way too long.
@@AngeVNsKeem Star
1:37 Lack of emotional investment. In an Urobuchi story. What a surprise
Saya would have been able to easily kill the neighbor, but in that moment she was completelessy caught off guard. She thought what she just did was not a big deal because she could revert the change afterward. The reaction she got however and the brutality of it was completely unexpected for her. Remember that at this point she had read hundreds of books on romance and thus formed an idea of how a relation like that should be like. She had her experiences with fuminori to validify that point too. It's only after she got through that that the yoh scene is even able to exist. She remember how she felt at that momwnt and wanted to enact it on yoh for vengeance's sake.
I think that she's not actually that big and/or strong. Most of her "food" has been little animals and a newborn baby. Even when killing Yoh (who is a thin woman and most likely not as strong as an average man) she had to hide in the shadows and rely on the element of surprise
Sweet Jesus. I didn't have intention to comment, but just his FIRST POINT, where he says he needed *couple hours at least FLASHBACK... IS HE NARUTO FAN, or something?!* 😳
I am 30+ woman and I LOVE me good horror/guro, but I think, as it was 2003, whole game was more likely experiment, with how short for today standards it was... And maybe I am wrong, so call me out if so, but I think, that SnU was one of, if not first ever VNs with so potentially...Psyche-unfriendly content. There is even 4, if remember, type of censorships for graph.
We discuss Saya for how BEAUTIFUL it is, metaphorically. But there is no lying, especially in 2003, or by Western localisation 2013 even...world was MUCH less desensitized, than nowadays, where news flash show us daily constant tragedy, to point, where we start rolling eyes at it. ✌️
And most importantly. IF we start with some cutesy BS story for HOURS... 1. Majority wanting horror will sign off, especially today, where many players got attention span of goldfish.
2nd and MOST importantly : game will just NOT feel same. Like, we are suppoused to BE FUMINORI. So we CAN'T see humanity in 'monsters', as it will beat purpose of seeing world through FUMINORI lenses. 😩
You are right. Your buddy ABSOLUTELY didn't got that game. Not my role to judge, BUT he probably is rather created for... Less heavy content, than slipping into madness to side with monsters. 🤷🏻♀️
Ange came into reading this VN with the wrong mindset and expectations. I guess that's what Moege does to you.
lol I read Saya no UTa long before any moege. The only VNs I read before were Fate, Umineko, Ever17, and Sharin no Kuni
As a moege fan thats kind of bull
SnU is on my top 10 VNs
What a great video, this video allowed you to delve even further into the perceptions and mindsets of the characters in the story which is how I mainly viewed it too. This + your original video on Saya makes for a pretty in depth look at how the game was built and what one is expected to think about coming out of it. I think Saya no Uta is a game that also allows for a few different ways of understanding the story or things to ponder. I like it a lot for the fact it's quite short and still manages ro accomplish that.
'Monsters making people insane from looking at them is more of a meme based on the mechanics of the Call of Cthulhu RPG than an actual representation of how people go mad in HPL's stories.
Though even in the RPG Sanity damage is more of a stress mechanic where insanity is just the endpoint if you failed to manage stress properly. Monsters in the RPG only cause different levels of sanity damage because its an RPG that needs variant threat levels and Cthulhu itself is supposed to be an undefeatable boss enemy. Monsters with literal madness auras are more a thing from other RPGs that don't center mental health as a mechanic.
Even if I agree with a lot of his rating on the surface level his takes strike me as incredibly shallow.
13:05
I've seen plenty of people having the same opinion, that it doesn't make sense that saya couldn't overpower the neighbour, but I have a few possibilities on my mind as to why that could be the case (the story doesn't really ever say the reason so I'm just speculating)
1. maybe the reason fuminori sees saya as a young girl, and the reason she relies on surprise attacks, is that she's actually rather small and not very strong? it seems to me like she heavily relies on surprise attacks and the irrational fear she inflicts on people to overpower them
2. maybe she was in shock from what was happening? she expected him to just be kind to her and he suddenly went to r*pe her, this one I'm not so sure about, she's not human, but at the same time it seems like she became almost completely human mentally from all the time she spent with Ogai
3. maybe she was still hoping that the neighbour would change his mind, or just didn't want to kill him, from my point of view she doesn't seem to kill for no reason, only to feed herself or protect her loved ones, and at that point she had enough food in the fridge for that
3.5. countering point 2. but maybe she actually DOESN'T feel like being r*ped is a horrible experience, because she's not human, so maybe for her it's okay to let it happen as long as her life is not in danger and can maybe try to reason with him once he's calmed down?
anyway these are just some possible reasons I came up to justify that scene that kind of make sense in-universe? maybe the author just wanted a scene where fuminori had to save saya and I don't need all these mental gymnastics xD
It's been a while since I actually read Saya no Uta so I could be off-base here, but if I'm remembering correctly, I'm pretty sure Saya had to physically restrain both Fuminori's neighbor and Yoh when she was doing her experiments, which was my main reasoning for thinking she should have been able to get away from him. Granted, he did have crazy person strength which should not be overlooked (humans are actually ridiculously strong when the subconscious limiters get bypassed).
I also feel like while Saya does gain some human-like tendencies (most notably with the storybooks convincing her that love was a prerequisite to reproduction), I still feel like she considers humans as a class beneath her (with the obvious exception of Fuminori). This is in line with the majority of Lovecraft's monsters. Like, Cthulhu isn't actually evil. Mankind is just completely inconsequential to it. So like... I don't think she goes around killing for the sake of it, but I also don't think she'd consider it wasteful to kill if it was at all convenient.
And I'll also say that I think the scene with Fuminori's neighbor had other thematic purposes to it, but I can't quite put my finger on it (I'll probably need to do a re-read for that). Whatever it's going for could very well change my thoughts on this scene.
@@Adze in the neighbor's case, from the text it looks like she made him pass out in only a few seconds, while he was still paralized by fear (she was playing with his brain after all)
in Yoh's case... I have no idea, although she was being experimented on live, without anesthesia, so maybe she was paralized by pain or something? i'm not sure
as for how saya sees humanity... I've never read any of Lovecraft's works, but it never seemed to me as if she felt above them or anything, she didn't even know what she was, my opinion is that she just saw us as any other animal (smarter sure, but not any different from the cats she ate), and she seemed to still be rather animalistic despite her intelligence and knowledge, so maybe she just saw the world with a "the best suited survives" mentality, and was just doing what she had to to survive and to keep fuminori safe (and their nest hidden from prying eyes like Omi)
I think that despite her immense knowledge and intelligence she was just too young, we don't have any clear dates but I think she must be around 2-4 years old from what I remember being specified (she spent at least 1 year with Ogai, no mention of more than that, after that she spent like 6~ months hidden in the hospital).
So maybe that's just not enough for an intelligent creature to gain things like morals through experience, since she had barely 0 contact with humans outside of Ogai and Fuminori (and not like Ogai taught her anything, he was a madman), and she probably only read most stories superficially without actually stopping to think about the implications and morals in them, except romance since her instincs tell her that reproductions is something to pay atention to
i posted this comment somewhere else yesterday, but in reference to #2:
'yea lol saya basically says this explicitly. i remember her saying that every other time shes attacked someone, they've been too scared by her appearance to put up resistance. so this is her first time in a situation like that (a real fight against a human).'
I fucking love the fact people are still discussing about Saya No Uta to this day
I mean, the guy is full of pretty bad VN takes, so it's not surprising at all.
You can disagree with his takes but he is consistent with what he likes atleast I guess. I am looking at his tier list appalled but at the same time it seems legit
The genres he likes are properly ordered while those he isn't into get insane debuffs
@@GreatRusio Yeah, he is consistent.
He is consistent in completely missing the point with works that need actual thinking to be understood.
omg ange such acunt
What the problem with Mafia 2?
I just think the design is bad on many levels with a remarkably empty world and a money system that discourages the player from actually spending any of the money they collect (due to the multiple points where you need a certain amount of money to progress, meaning you have to grind if you spent anything). There were also instances where you need to hope RNG spawns the right car nearby. One timed driving mission in particular was an instant fail if you got stuck with a slow car.
Also, hard mode is horribly balanced. You can naturally recover up to (I think) 60% of your max health over time with healing items being required to go above that. Of course, the hitscan enemies can one-tap you from there if you get unlucky. It was just a very frustrating experience all around. The only part I actually liked about the game was the story and half of it felt like it was lifted straight out of the first Godfather movie.