***NOTES*** SUBSCRIBE TO TABLETOP TRENDS! www.youtube.com/@TabletopRPGTrends Also... Yes, Aid probably should have been a bit higher, likely around B tier.
AID is one of those spells that looks iffy on paper, but once players start using it, especially when upcast (and Clockwork Soul sorcerers can Extend Cast it) (and then there's Rest Casting), it can really change how the game plays, and suddenly it can start to feel broken. (I played in a high level campaign where my CS sor expended level 6,7,8 slots on Extended Aid, then we long rested, starting the day with full spell slots, three of us +35 HP, three +30 HP, and the Familiars all with +25 HP. Blew up the BBEG battle entirely.) (We didn't even know about Rest Casting.)
I was about to make this comment. Aid is probably the best upcasted 2nd level spell - as I see it used more in tier 3-4 combined with other buff spells like heroes feast.
I think it should be rated higher, since it upcasts splendidly (and you can rest cast with extend for free HP). Especially if you are a multiclass caster you can upcast it to get +30/45/60/70 HP more for the whole party (5/10/15/20/25 for each) it's probably one of the most convenient spell to upcast. Take fireball for example or any damaging spells each slot usually increases the damage by 6.5 damage for spell slot (I picked a d12 it will probably a smaller dice), Aid gives you +15 hp for each slot higher than 2.
Yeah, Aid is probably at least B Tier as it's one of those Spells that isn't super amazing, but it's actually useful in the long run as it allows characters to take more Hits for a long time and need less reviving. The big one I disagree with though, is actually Beast Sense, which I think is far and away the 2nd worst Spell at 2nd Rank, only beaten by the worst Spell they ever made in Borrowed Knowledge, and even then it's only worse because Borrowed Knowledge is a just straight downgrade to Enhance Ability at the same Rank. As for why it's so bad: you don't control the Beast and have no actual way to control where it goes so the DM is just controlling a simple animal, meaning you probably need another Spell to somehow be able to influence it, and because it has Concentration you can't use a Summoned Beast to do so, further hurting its viability to the point you're way better off just using a Familiar as a Druid while any Ranger that isn't a Beastmaster should just avoid it entirely. Beast Sense is honestly just a straight F- RAW and really needed something to let you at least suggest where it should go so the Spell actually does the thing you expect it to. Addendum: Locate Animals and Plants seems a little underrated, as it's good at the thing it does, even if it's still niche, which definitely means it doesn't deserve F Tier alongside the 4 most useless 2nd Rank Spells in the 2024 PHB, and it is worth noting that with the new Crafting Rules for Healing Potions, it's perfectly reasonable to use this Spell to find those particular herbs now to save money on crafting materials. It may not be the most useful Spell, but at least it doesn't suck at said job unlike Cordon of Arrows, Crown of Madness, Find Traps and especially Beast Sense as I mentioned above. Heck, I was really annoyed that Tasha's gave Ranger Beast Sense instead of this Spell since you can reasonably use it on any Ranger and not just Beastmaster unlike Beast Sense since it doesn't need a million hoops jumped through to work as intended. Ultimately Locate Animals and Plants is a solid D or even C- Tier Spell.
Yup. Low key, I think AID, particularly an Extended AID, might be the best Spell buff in the game for its level. At least until Foresight comes into play.
Yea! My mind was blown!!!!! Aid is amazing. The only thing I can think is because he DMs so often… is aid less effective cast daily when the DM starts taking it into consideration for each combat? That’s the only reason I can think someone would put aid anywhere but A. Hell, might make an argument for S. Instead, he’s got aid in C tier. Right next to that oh so often used *checks notes* arcane lock??
Agree, it is not just a heal, it is actually a PRE heal, with the Extended Spell Metamagic, you can also just use your highest left over spell slot, and cast it at your teammate for next 16hour, which probably covers at least 1 fight after your long rest
Aid is not just a heal, it is actually a PRE heal, with the Extended Spell Metamagic, you can also just use your highest left over spell slot, and cast it at your teammate for next 16hour, which probably covers at least 1 fight after your long rest. Not even mentioning upcast, lv5 upcast is literally 20 max hp for 3 members, imagine on a Barbarian or someone with really high AC, it is sooo good. (Wizard: that could double my max hp...) So already at the start of the video, i could hate this one
I think Cordon of Arrows should be C-tier. The 2d4 piercing damage on a failed DEX save is a deceptive ribbon feature, what this spell really gives you is four arrows that can magically detect ANY intruder, no matter how stealthy, and leap out of the ground in a straight line towards them the second they come within 30 feet, instantly giving you a clear indicator of their presence and current position. The arrows also ignore anyone you consider an ally when casting the spell and are immovably embedded in the earth until triggered, which means they can easily be rigged to set off bigger, mundane traps if you tie bits of string to them. Or just tie a jingle-bell to each one so you can hear where it strikes. Also, it's not explicit in the spell, but I think a reasonable DM would agree that the arrow closest to an intruder is the one that triggers when they enter the spell's area, which could allow you to set up different traps for different approaches. Not exactly an every-day spell but still a very fun situational one. Awesome video though, I'm always a sucker for a good tier list :)
It’s a fun and situational spell for sure. The thing is that there are still better and cheaper ways of accomplishing this. Cordon of Arrows doesn’t stop an intruder from getting in. It kinda just tickles them. You also don’t get any notice that someone did get somewhere. Setting up traps will be better 9/10. I wish it was much better. I love the concept.
See this one is bad on its own but is better because it can stack on top of each other. I mean if you're a ranger and have a bunch of unused spell slots before taking a long rest using them all on good berries and cordon of is a pretty good idea. I mean, let's just say you're done with the day you had only two encounters. You have two level two spell slots, and a level 3 spell slot Why would you not just stack it on this spell. It's really not a combat spell. It's something you stag on top of each other. Your defend the camp spell if you will
It's a very good NPC spell for bosses to utilize and prep against the party. I added it to a white dragon's dragon lair (said white dragon had access to Ranger spells) and all arrows triggered
Agree with the poster. It's crazy to rate it as F while it offers great utility. If you don't rate this spell high enough it means your DM is allowing you too much safety while you rest outside a city and you may not be doing (subjectively) enough encounters per day to feel the need to rest.
Thanks for making these videos, they're really well organized and I'm using them more to get a refresher on all of my spell choices than for the tier placement. Just having the text on screen, in chapters, with some quick notes helps a lot to evaluate relative value within a tier. Appreciate all of the hard work!
Crazy thing happened in my game recently... A character with Warlock Pact Slots multiclassed to get Aid.. Now they Spend their Warlock Slots to cast it at 5th level, on everyone in the party, and then take a Short Rest. Now everyone just permanently has 20 more HP 🤷
@Silverythoughts yup, didn't realize it was added to the free spells. In a different game, I played a Divine Soul Sorcerer, and used Extended spells to cast a Bunch of buffs with 16 hour durations... The campaign was such that we could pick our days to adventure, and head back to town afterwards, so it was pretty perfect.
My wizard used magic mouth for an alarm system at our staffed guild hall. Since the trigger doesn’t rely on a particular creature’s senses, just that it could be sensed, it thwarts basically all stealthy infiltration methods.
The value of a niche spell seems to often depend on the spell preparation rules for the class. Locate Animals or Plants is terrible if you have to dedicate a prepared spell slot on it for an entire level, but druids and rangers can prepare it after a long rest, use it, and replace it on the next long rest.
I genuinely love sitting down to watch a solid 20-30 minute tier list video for exactly that reason lol! It’s a big part of why I’m doing this series, it’s something I would watch :)
I wonder if the solution to spells with super concentration (cit.) like Crown of Madness and Witch bolt would have been, ironically, to remove concentration: they require your bonus action to maintain or the effect ends, but you can combine them with another concentration spell. In my games, I've reinterpreted Augury's "weal or wo" as "risk vs. reward", making the ratio of those two factors what determines the outcome of the reading. Enthrall should require no saving throw and automatically succeed, unless the target is immune to being Charmed or hostile to you. Like Detect Thoughts, maybe it can allow for a check (Insight, imo) to allow a target to figure out what's happening. It's a very circumstantial spell that splits the party almost by design. Find Traps should give everyone advantage on checks to find, identify, and disarm traps you've sensed. Good point about Flame Blade and OAs! Gentle Repose is incredibly useful at 5th level, when you have access to Revivify but may not have enough spell slots to cats it in the midst of combat. I think what's keeping you from bumping Heat Metal up to S tier is the fact that it requires a metal object in the first place. You've really made me re-evaluate Levitate. I wonder if you could combine Magic Mouth with Glyph of Warding or Symbol to functionally extend the range at which they activate, by having the mouth speak a trigger word when someone comes within range of those spells? With the new Nystul's Magic Aura, there's definitely shenanigans. I think it's been mentioned that you can use it in conjunction with Planar Binding to do game-breaking things.
Invisibility S -> You can use it in or out of combat -> upcast for more creatures -> Spells "YOU CAN SEE" you are immun from maybe 50 or more spells invisible -> "every" campain should have a good moment for it Hold Person high A -> repeat save -> but most important ONLY Humanoid you could have real trouble in a undead, devil, fey,... campain -> no out of combat use? Summon Beast S at level 3 -> 1 Ally 13AC 30 HP !! (Fly 20HP) -> Packt Tactics or -> Flyby -> Fly, climb or swim speed (Wather Breathing) -> If you get in a wather fight it should outperform most player characters (no Suffocating, no extra movement costs, no disadvantage on attacks -> some Weapons are with out) -> Darkvision -> Can block the way, should get OP Attacks? -> resemles an animal of your choice/enviroment -> maybe out of combat use ? -> BIG it scales with Level -> Multiattack, AC and HP ! For a level 3 Caster a +30HP meat shield is wow,.. Fighter/Paladin/Ranger +2Con (lev 3) 10+2 + 6+2 + 6+2 -> 28HP Bard/Cleric/Druid/Monk/Rogue/Warlock + 2Con (lev 3) 8+2 + 5+2 + 5+2 -> 24HP Sorcerer/Wizard 6+2 + 4+2 + 4+2 -> 20HP
I'll keep feeding the algo by posting my own tier list. I'll be mentioning "circumstances" a lot, and those also include things like specific builds (e.g. Shillelagh ranger or wizards not preparing rituals), being a ritual, only being good at certain levels, requiring concentration when there are better options, or the component being too costly for the spell's effect/level (e.g. Chromatic Orb, Identify). S (extremely useful in many/most circumstances, arguably OP): 5 - Aid (sorry), Find Steed, Nystul's Magic Aura (shenanigans), Spike Growth, Suggestion (literal interpretation) A (very useful in many circumstances OR irreplaceable in its niche): 14 - Barkskin, Detect Thoughts, Gentle Repose, Heat Metal, Invisibility, Lesser Restoration, Locate Objects, Misty Step, Pass without Trace, Phantasmal Force (iron maiden and cooperative DM), Prayer of Healing, Rope Trick, See Invisibility, Web, Zone of Truth B (somewhat useful in many circumstances AND great in its niche): 11 - Augury, Blindness/Deafness, Cloud of Daggers, Darkness, Dragon's Breath, Hold Person, Levitate, Magic Weapon, Shatter, Shining Smite, Summon Beast C (somewhat useful in many circumstances OR great in its niche): 15 - Arcane Lock, Blur, Calm Emotions, Enhance Ability, Enlarge/Reduce, Flaming Sphere, Knock, Mind Spike, Mirror Image, Moonbeam, Protection from Poison, Ray of Enfeeblement, Scorching Ray, Silence, Spider Climb, Spiritual Weapon D (circumstantial): 11 - Alter Self, Animal Messenger, Arcane Vigor, Beast Sense, Continual Flame, Darkvision, Flame Blade, Gust of Wind, Locate Animals or Plants, Melf's Acid Arrow, Warding Bond F (very circumstantial AND bad in its own niche): 5 - Cordon of Arrows, Crown of Madness, Enthrall, Find Traps, Magic Mouth
moonbeam in c is just wrong, you literally dont have to move it to keep getting free damage, no action cost, its one of the best spells you can cast before going into wildshape to stack up damage, if they dont move away from you you dont have to move moonbeam, if they do move you get an opportunity attack potentially with sentinel
Agreed. On paper this doesn't seem that great but in practice the only time it's ever less than fantastic is when the combat is unexpectedly short. My group calls it "sticking someone in the microwave"
Yeah moonbeam is a bread and butter for Druid’s. There are better dps spells, but a 2x2 hazard that any team member can make use of is great… con save definitely isn’t the best but radiant is almost never resisted
@@theredwind I guess maybe that's the only reason for C; only available to Druids ("Can shine in specific circumstances. They might have limited uses...")
The description has changed a lot. It does damage when it enters the space of an enemy, and unlike flaming sphere its move doesn't stop there. It's area denial without using an action, and using an action it's a 10' wide 60' long (not necessarily straight) 2d10 aoe. At level 3 this cleans up a lot of minions with 2 actions (1 to cast, next to move).
It is a very good spell for sure, B tier still represents that! Stealth is common and important but it still is just doing that one thing. Granted, maybe A since being stealthy can enable some additional elements of play too! I’m also surprised they didn’t change it, I’ve mentioned in videos before that I think the design is problematic.
13:00 One thing I'd like to point out about Enlarge/Reduce is that when someone get's enlarged, so do their weapons. If you use the rules for weapon sizes, then that means your great axe wielding barbarian is suddenly gonna be dealing 2d12+1d4 damage on each hit (large weapons have twice the amount of damage dice).
Arcane Vigor is a Wizard Spell. Eldritch Knights & Arcane Tricksters get access to this. More than a d6, it can be a d10 or d8, respectfully. It could translate to being a Spell version of Second Wind OR Durable feat.
Phantasmal Force has been hilarious in my home game, where we put creatures in a hot cube. the creature can't target us, and takes damage. It worked well enough, especially since when we used it against a beholderkin, it failed the skill check every turn. so basically it could be a low level hold monster, if the monster is large or smaller.
Pass Without Trace as a “B Tier” spell!?!?! That is an S Tier spell if I have ever seen one. Absolutely crazy to drop it in B. Also, yeah, Aid is an easy A Tier as well.
B is a very good rating, I would encourage you to review the descriptions at the beginning of the video for each tier. Pass Without Trace is phenomenal at what it does. But stealth is one small part of the game. Yes, being stealthy *can* lead to other things but that’s all impossible to gauge because there are quite literally infinite possibilities of what may or may not happen in someone’s game based on a successful stealth check.
WARLOCK: Some spells may need reconsideration when evaluated from a Warlock's perspective, especially with the potential for upcasting. While many spells are impressive at the level they are first acquired, those that cannot scale through upcasting can lose their appeal over time. Conversely, spells that initially seem underwhelming might gain value due to their upcasting potential, making them worth a second look.
I mean, I don't think it's going to be THAT important. If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing. What do I mean by this? Several spells on 5.24e scale by allowing you additional targets, e.g. Tasha's hideous laughter or Command. If you're into the spell for its upcasting potential, it needs to already do something worth a spell slot in the first place.
Scrolls. I think where a lot of these spells shine is in Spell Scrolls. At 2nd level, they’re still pretty affordable, but pack a lot of utility. Arcane Lock, Calm Emotions, Darkvision, Enlarge/Reduce, Gentle Repose, Knock, Lesser Restoration, Levitate, Locate Object, Rope Trick, See Invisibility, Silence, Spider Climb, Zone of Truth… all excellent in the right situation, but not always worth your spell prep slot. It’s a pretty low cost to have these for exactly when you want them.
@@InsightCheck good assumption since scrolls completely change how low level spells can impact a game. Nothing quite throws off the scary invisible horde of demons encounter like three arcanists whipping out the scrolls of See Invisibility they've been carrying for so long, everyone had forgotten about them.
I'll be making a comment and editing it as I watch the video. Aid is actually an amazing spell for one simple reason, it give actual hit points and not temporary HP. This means that it stacks with things like inspiring leader, or other ways to give out Temporary hit points. Darkness is amazing it works especially well with parties that can build around it. For example, those with fighting styles take blindfighting and a warlock/ranged attackers take Devils Sight. Find Traps...HOW THE FUCK DOES IT STILL NOT FIND TRAPS! Heat Metal is really nice. The good ol' cook and book. Find Steed is really nice as well. Mounted combat is really nice, especially when used with ranged combat. Hold Person is devastating if it lands. One time, I was able to land it and the fighter nearly ended the boss in a single round. Mirror Image used to be nearly useless on a well built wizard. But, now it is very nice as it works better the higher your AC is. Rope Trick is amazing. Especially sense you can duck in and out of it to pepper the enemy, hiding away from counter attack. Scorching Ray is an amazing spell, at higher levels. At this level, its okay. But, when you cast it and combine it with a spell that deals extra damage per hit, the potential damage is outstanding. Spike Growth is absolutely amazing. Especially, since forced movement forces the damage to happen repeatedly. If the entire party can combo with the spell, this one Second level spell can deal hundreds of damage per round. I'm glad that Spiritual Weapon has been nerfed. It has never been a good spell and now hopefully, people will stop taking it. The amount of damage it deals is so low that regeneration can out heal it. Not to mention that if a creature is moving, the weapon will never catch up. Outside of the slowest of slow enemies. Never take Spiritual Weapon. You'd be better off casting literally any other spell. Suggestion, on the other hand, has always been a good spell to get out of sticky situations. Especially now that the Suggestion only needs to be achievable and not reasonable. Meaning that you can tell an enemy to fail any subsequent saves that the party has it make. Warding Bond is a really cool and interesting spell. I just wish that I could find situations in which another spell or action would be better. Dealing damage or using a control spell tends effective in reducing damage, so I don't see it used often. Web is one of the most powerful spells in the game and my personal favorite spell in the game. It was the first true control spell that I cast and I've loved control spells ever since. Just being able to shut down so many enemies. and the fact that they must take an action to escape makes it so good. Especially when you work with other characters.
Yeah, you did. I think that you undervalued that aspect a bit. Personally, I take this on every character I can unless the party already has everyone covered. Then it gets cast at the end of every long rest.
@ I’m wasn’t going over every spell. But, Summon Beast is a decent spell. It’s generally not very useful. But, it could be alright in some niche situations
Ok, some differences here. Misty step should be an S tier spell. Bonus action for a 30 ft teleport. This allows you to escape grapples, flee an enemy without an attack of opportunity, close with an enemy, teleport past minions to engage the target behind them, teleport past your tanks to get fo areas of safety. It is probably the best 2nd level spell in the game. Cloud of daggers, while nice, is actually worse then moonbeam. You have an automatic 10 dmg vs 5 to 11 damage, however, cloud of daggers is a teleport for additional damage, while moonbeam travels for additional damage. This means that if monsters are spread out enough, you only do 10 dmg per turn. However, with a 60 ft movement, you can reliably hit even more monsters, most possibly every monster on the combat. Say a combat with 6 monsters. With some ok spacing, probably 2 monsters. However, moonbeam will tag all 6, meaning you already are doing 1.5 the damage even if all monsters succeed on the save. As for scorching ray, it is lower tier, however, with wizards, you can now unlock conjure minor elementals. Assume level for this experiment. 2 5th level spells. Turn 1, upcast conjure elemental. Turn 2, upcast scorching ray. While it requires a set up turn, you are now dealing 2d6+5d8 per ray. That is a total of 12d6+30d8 single target damage, for a total of 177 dmg on avg.
Good list. Given this list and the past lists for 1st level spells & Cantrips, I think you are a bit more generous with giving out the highly touted S-tier designation. It also seems like C-tier is the the default 'does what it says on the tin' rank. I would certainly switch Mind Spike and Warding bond, if not put Warding Bond lower. Also, while Locate Object may not be as niche as Locate Animals or Plants, it is still pretty niche and the range limitation of 1000 feet really serves to limit it further. I can't argue with Acid Splash too much, except to say that the devs seem to far overvalue damage over time spells. Does it offer the opportunity to force two Concentration saves? Sure. But most of the time you would rather have x+y damage now over x now and y later; especially when y is a fairly piddly amount. That is kind of a nice niche for acid damage spells, though: ongoing damage. It does serve to differentiate the damage type from others. Too bad they are getting away from that, it would be nice if went: acid: damage over time; cold slowing; lightning taking away opportunity attacks; Thunder increasing damage to objects or breaking things; poison can inflict the poisoned condition; and fire just does a bit more damage. I also slightly disagree with your take on Nystal's Magic Aura. I don't like the interpretation that you can just cast it on someone and have them be immune to Hold Person, for example. Or cast it on a demon and have them be subject to it. In my view Hold Person only affects Humanoids because it does not have enough power/scope/juice to effect other creature types; not because it 'detects' the creature type and decides "Mmmm, not on my racial profiling list, better not." The spell itself does not care what the creature type is, it just won't work on other types. It's like saying "if I fool the electricity in the circuit to think this wooden stick is metal, this stick is now a conductor!" The electricity does not care, it just follows the natural path according to what is there. It would take something like Polymorph to do that. Sure, for things like Glyphs of Warding, the Alarm spell, and Locate Creature, it will work swimmingly. That's just my take. But I admit the wording is certainly open to interpretation, I just find the it far too powerful of an effect for a second level Illusion spell.
First spell and I already feel compelled to comment. You are massively underselling Aid. The use you talk about is a bit niche, sure. But that is not how you use aid to good effect. It upcasts really well and that many additional hit points is a huge difference across the whole party for the whole day. It's one of the most effective healing actions the caster is going to take all day, because it persists all days. You can regain hp back up to your new max. So it stacks with every other healing effect in the game. It's really a very, very good spell. It's just not flashy at all. Aid is easily an A, could even be S.
The thing about Phantasmal Force is that the DM fiat of it is worse than just “ok, they take the Study Action every turn until they see it’s an illusion”. That at least is eating up their Action. It’s that they can walk out of the area of effect even if the illusion would be something they perceive as impassable, then justify it in whatever way the DM wants.
Love your videos, almost all great takes but "Pass Without Trace, solid B tier spell" made me lightheaded. That is tier 3-4 expertise bonus to stealth, that stacks on top of any proficiencies for the whole party. With the old surprise rules (still good with new rules) or for exploration/infiltration it might as well be the shield spell.
Glad you enjoy my videos :) As for Pass Without Trace, it’s come up a couple of times in the comments so I will just copy/paste what I’ve said already in another comment. B is a very good rating, I would encourage you to review the descriptions at the beginning of the video for each tier. Pass Without Trace is phenomenal at what it does. But stealth is one small part of the game. Yes, being stealthy *can* lead to other things but that’s all impossible to gauge because there are quite literally infinite possibilities of what may or may not happen in someone’s game based on a successful stealth check.
I'd love to see some comparison of the lower level "always hit" options (magic missile, witch bolt, and cloud of daggers come to mind). Maybe with some math - or is that a Treantmonk thing?!
AFAIK Barkskin can't be combined with anything. A clarification from the devs would be nice but i think that after all AC calculations you check if your AC is lower than 17. Not even the shield spell would be added on top. I heard it once as a "last line of defense" type of defense. If they reached your skin then the Barkskin applies
It can go either way. I would say that Shields do work with it since they aren’t impacting the way your AC is calculated, they are just adding to it. Armour though, does impact how AC is calculated at a base level. There is an old tweet from Mike Mearls suggesting this is correct but really I think it’s just a table decision. I would allow it to work.
Placing Magic Mouth on a piece of jewellery can warn you if there is a creature in x ft who is invisible, or any fast catchall warning you select, so A+ or S- tier for me
I love your lists. You rock. But you have got to be trolling with aid at C tier. Isn’t it universally considered one of the best/most broken spells in the game? Is it just my little echo chamber? I feel gaslit right now.
Hey anything is possible! I’ve never really seen or heard of it being all that busted but it is certainly exceptional in certain situations! It could probably be in B, but I’ve never said I don’t make mistakes haha :) Glad you enjoy my lists!
Every party I have ever played in or DMd has cast this spell every single day, usually at the highest possible level. And often, players get a whole feat (meta magic adept) just to be able to extend this spell so it can be cast at the higher level before a long rest
lol that’s amazing! In my years of DM’ing for a few different groups I think I’ve seen the spell cast two or three times haha. I’ve seen discussions about it in the past but just never seemed that “broken”. I’m still not convinced that it is, but it could probably be at least B.
@@InsightCheck I think that just speaks to how groups have their own styles. And let’s be honest, that’s part of what makes this game fun. I think my surprise was mostly based on the fact that I didn’t think this was one of those spells that was more group specific. It’s just a health buff for the whole party (I don’t remember using it for healing).
Summon beast is a great spell as it’s a cast & forget. It doesn’t need your action or bonus action on subsequent turns to get full damage from it. Not to mention it can also tank for you. If they’re attacking your summon they aren’t attacking you. Easily A tier.
I would certainly not go so far as to say it’s “cast and forget” considering it requires concentration so you always need to consider it when evaluating your next move.
You had a lot of C-tier spells that probably should have either been higher or lower. Off the top of my head, Aid and Moonbeam should have been higher, and Enhance Ability, Magic Mouth, and Melf's Acid Arrow should have been lower. It's funny how much different our table plays vs yours on some of the highest tier.
If you think Magic Mouth is anything than S tier, you don't know how to use it. It's permanent and automatic detection of traps, invisible creatures, shapeshifters and many more.
I think we have very different gaming experiences. I must have disagreed with about 75% of your rankings and that is not necessarily a bad thing. The fact that the community disagree on how good or bad a spell is suggests to me that the spells are more balanced and a player’s style of play has a bigger impact on how they perceive a spell’s use.
@@tibot4228 yeah, that's what I meant. On the surface, it's like"5 HP? That sounds pretty lame." But, as you said, once people start using it, and upcasting it, suddenly players are breaking the DM's encounters with it, because they can soak (and recover with magic or short rests) so much more damage over time.
Cordon of Arrows as F Tier is too harsh reflecting the Tier 1/2 play it was designed for. If you can choose the battlefield or place the arrows on a moveable location such as a ship, you are getting an extra attack per turn...and possibly during combat turns where you are completely hidden and unable to be attacked. Additionally the point of the spell is NOT area denial but as an alarm. A completely invisible camp interloper will trigger the arrows at distance. An enemy disguised as your ally will be attacked by the arrows.
Heat Metal is S. The most important part is not the damage but that if the creature is wearing metal, it will make all attacks at a disadvantage. If you see enough of Esper's Monster Melee, you will how ridiculous this spell is.
The spell is ridiculously good, but the fact that it requires a creature to be wearing metal immediately makes it not S. as shown at the beginning and discussed throughout the video, the intent here is to rate spells based on general applicability and quality. Needing metal is a huge caveat. If you’re in a jungle fighting animals or animated plants, Heat Metal isn’t doing a whole lot for you.
@@InsightCheck In that context, I do agree. But if a creature is wearing metal, it is pretty much GG. I would always take it, if I had the chance. Even in a Jungle there are going to be Brigands and other humans to cook in their armor. However, by that same definition, Hold Person should be A, because if you are fighting animals, fey, undead or anything but humans. That is not going to help you :P
2nd level spells are weird, there are some really good spells like Aid, cloud pf daggers or find steed, and than there are some michelaneous spells that are really rare to use like eternal flame (i only saw the used in dungeons description) magic mouth rr cordon of arrows, that for me look like more as DM's toolbox spells to use to create or enhance structure or to build up some traps than to be really used by players, like magic jar or simulacrum or other high level plot spells... I always have trouble on choosing 2nd and even 4th level spells as s spellcaster for this reason
Nystul's Magic Aura is a great DM-Spell... Oops! The Big Bad Vampire now detects as Human to all spells! And so does his Simulacrum! It can also be used for stupidly strong exploits, like making something be effected as a Celestial, so you can cast Planar Binding on it, or make it so that Beholder is effected as a Beast, so you can use a 4th level casting of Dominate Beast instead of an 8th level casting of Dominate Monster... It's... really weird, and I don't like how effective it is...
Cloud of daggers S tier? U serious bro? Ok it's a pure damage spell so let's compare it to a pure damage lvl1 spell, Witch bolt. Witch bolt, on its initial cast, can deal (spell attack) 2d12 damage (average13) to a single target, then you use your bonus action to deal 1d12 to the same target. Cloud of daggers deals, no questions asked, 4d4 damage (average 9) to more often than not, a single target, unless there's something flying overhead, then you consume your full action to deal the same damage to another target. You're getting very similar results, with an arguably better damage type (lightning) with a lvl1 spell, except it doesn't consume your very valuable full round action.
A few points to make. 1) yes I am serious :) 2) I also rated Witch Bolt as S tier 3) I am not comparing between spell levels and I am also not comparing between spells. You’ll notice everything here just went at the end, every spell is so different it would be next to impossible to rank them amongst each other. 4) Cloud of Daggers is average 10 damage 5) the point of CoD isn’t to spend your action moving it to another target. Ideally it’s used in a space where a target is stuck or combined with another creature grappling or otherwise restraining. 6) it isn’t just a passive Bonus Action tax. It’s also not even an action tax unless you wanted to move it. Cloud of Daggers is an excellent spell. So is Witch Bolt (now).
@@InsightCheck First of all, thanks for taking the time for such a well structured reply! Really adds to the analysis. That said, I'm comparing it to a lvl1 spell because the jump between lvl1 and 2 spells is meaningful and, as you state in your opening, it's very much hit or miss in that gap between that power void where lvl3 spells are a BIG jump for most classes. So, by definition, the lvl2 spell, in order to be considered great, should offer way more than what a great lvl1 spell does. The action economy is to be considered, imo, because you relying on others for the spell to be effective is not the soundest of plans. Also it's going to require their action economy and some good luck to be effective, which is why i compared it to a single-use scenario. Concentration is also a valuable resource and, if worse comes to worst, using up both concentration and action to deal 10 average damage, does not exactly scream S tier to me, for a pure damage lvl2 spell. So I'll have to disagree on your analysis. IMO Cloud of daggers is way better than it used to, but it certainly doesn't reach S tier status (spells you go out of your way to get); heck, doesn't even reach B tier status to me, i.e. a good spell in my list I will pick-up sometime early when available, since it's not exactly very good. Once again I appreciate your well structured response, and while it might merit SOME relevance because some classes that get it (e.g. Bard) don't get that much in the way of damage, imo, not enough to merit calling it amazing. Damage now is always more valuable than damage later, especially when it comes to concentration spells.
Aid is too clutch to be anywhere lower than A. It makes a losing battle immediately winnable again by reviving 3 allies. For a 2nd level that stays useful forever. Raising the max hit points by 5 is overrated though
Summon beast being c while warding bond is b is off. Summon beast is broadly applicable and warding bond situationally useful and problematic against area damage
Cloud of Daggers offers no attack roll or save, it always deals its damage with nothing to interfere. Moonbeam targets the worst save to target in the game.
@@InsightCheck The difference in average damage isn't huge. 10 for Cloud of Daggers. If we assume enemies save 50% of the time (which seems generous even for CON) then it's 8.125 for Moonbeam. But I think Radiant is likely to be more reliable than magical Slashing with the new monsters, and Moonbeam covers a bigger area, and has double the range and movement.
Beast sense is far from C for druids. For a level 1 slot or wild shape they can summon a CR 0 familiar of any sort to do the same thing, plus you have control of it, and there's no "willing" requirement. Without find familiar it's a niche spell at best, and with find familiar it's of low value.
Interesting list. Thanks! Since this is the Internet, I'll complain. 😉 Phantasmal Force is not an S tier spell. Too much openness to DM interpretation and too many better options for locking down a foe. Solid B.
Magic Mouth is S tier. You can create earings for the whole party with triggers like "an invisible creature makes a step within 30 ft of you", or similar things for traps, glyphs of warding, poison etc. and have automatic detection of things happening around you. It is, however, a pain in the ass to keep track of.
Flaming sphere: "It doesn't exclusively take the damage when the creature ends its turn within its range anymore, which is a nice touch" What? Your words don't make sense to me. Did I miss something I've just reread both versions now and I'm still very confused by your wording as there's no mechanical changes to the spell from 2014.
Nothing but a simple derp :) Most spells that used to deal damage at the end of a creatures turn now deal it also when they enter (yes I’m excluding the bonus action). When you spend 5 days just staring at spells, your brain does all kinds of silly things.
@@InsightCheckYou did a great job with this list overall(and the cantrip and lvl 1 lists). I've been playing and DMing this game for decades and never thought to use Magic Aura defensively to avoid spells that target an aspect you are but now magic thinks you are not. I only ever thought of it as subterfuge "no high level magical cops i am not an evil caster see your magic is telling you I am good not evil and it was just coincidence the orphanage burned down the night after I entered town!" That makes the spell cooler for sure.
I’m actually surprised at how many 2nd level spells benefit with just the “magic action” a thief rogue with flame blade can bonus attack with it, or move cloud of daggers with bonus. The possibilities of this subclass just keep getting bigger for me.
This is not accurate. The Thief can use Magic action to activate a magic item, not to independently use spells or spell effects. To use scrolls you would also need a multiclass before late game.
As noted in the pinned comment, I’d consider bumping Aid up, but not higher than B. As for the other two? I’ll gladly die on that hill. I’d suggest reading the tier definitions at the beginning and the reasoning provided in each section.
For a damage comparison between Cloud of Daggers and Moonbeam: CoD deals an average of 10 damage for no save, while Moonbeam deals an average of 11 damage on a failed save, and 5.5 on a successful one. With the targeted stat being Constitution, I'd assume that saves are failed about 50% of the time, which would put Moonbeam's average damage at 8.25.
@tibot4228 there’s also more to it since CoD is one far more lists than Moonbeam and there is value in knowing that when cast, CoD will always land so there is only one element of variance (damage rolls) rather than two (damage rolls and a save).
crown of madness is an insane control spell. completely disagree. it can fully lock down an enemy humanoid, they have to waste their action every turn. if they dont have minions it can basically wipe an encounter.
Remember that they must do so *before they move*. If there is no creature within their reach (typically 5 feet) then the spell does nothing and the creature can do whatever it wants and the spell has no effect. It’s quite the opposite of what you said, if they don’t have minions, the spell does literally nothing. And let’s be real, who is going to stand next to the guy with a spectral crown of jagged iron that mysteriously appeared over its head lol.
I think you've misread the spell. If they don't immediately make the attack, they get their full turn unhindered. It literally does nothing against a single enemy.
***NOTES***
SUBSCRIBE TO TABLETOP TRENDS! www.youtube.com/@TabletopRPGTrends
Also...
Yes, Aid probably should have been a bit higher, likely around B tier.
AID is one of those spells that looks iffy on paper, but once players start using it, especially when upcast (and Clockwork Soul sorcerers can Extend Cast it) (and then there's Rest Casting), it can really change how the game plays, and suddenly it can start to feel broken. (I played in a high level campaign where my CS sor expended level 6,7,8 slots on Extended Aid, then we long rested, starting the day with full spell slots, three of us +35 HP, three +30 HP, and the Familiars all with +25 HP. Blew up the BBEG battle entirely.) (We didn't even know about Rest Casting.)
I was about to make this comment. Aid is probably the best upcasted 2nd level spell - as I see it used more in tier 3-4 combined with other buff spells like heroes feast.
I think it should be rated higher, since it upcasts splendidly (and you can rest cast with extend for free HP). Especially if you are a multiclass caster you can upcast it to get +30/45/60/70 HP more for the whole party (5/10/15/20/25 for each) it's probably one of the most convenient spell to upcast. Take fireball for example or any damaging spells each slot usually increases the damage by 6.5 damage for spell slot (I picked a d12 it will probably a smaller dice), Aid gives you +15 hp for each slot higher than 2.
Aid might deserve the A spot honestly
Yeah, Aid is probably at least B Tier as it's one of those Spells that isn't super amazing, but it's actually useful in the long run as it allows characters to take more Hits for a long time and need less reviving.
The big one I disagree with though, is actually Beast Sense, which I think is far and away the 2nd worst Spell at 2nd Rank, only beaten by the worst Spell they ever made in Borrowed Knowledge, and even then it's only worse because Borrowed Knowledge is a just straight downgrade to Enhance Ability at the same Rank. As for why it's so bad: you don't control the Beast and have no actual way to control where it goes so the DM is just controlling a simple animal, meaning you probably need another Spell to somehow be able to influence it, and because it has Concentration you can't use a Summoned Beast to do so, further hurting its viability to the point you're way better off just using a Familiar as a Druid while any Ranger that isn't a Beastmaster should just avoid it entirely. Beast Sense is honestly just a straight F- RAW and really needed something to let you at least suggest where it should go so the Spell actually does the thing you expect it to.
Addendum: Locate Animals and Plants seems a little underrated, as it's good at the thing it does, even if it's still niche, which definitely means it doesn't deserve F Tier alongside the 4 most useless 2nd Rank Spells in the 2024 PHB, and it is worth noting that with the new Crafting Rules for Healing Potions, it's perfectly reasonable to use this Spell to find those particular herbs now to save money on crafting materials. It may not be the most useful Spell, but at least it doesn't suck at said job unlike Cordon of Arrows, Crown of Madness, Find Traps and especially Beast Sense as I mentioned above. Heck, I was really annoyed that Tasha's gave Ranger Beast Sense instead of this Spell since you can reasonably use it on any Ranger and not just Beastmaster unlike Beast Sense since it doesn't need a million hoops jumped through to work as intended. Ultimately Locate Animals and Plants is a solid D or even C- Tier Spell.
Aid anywhere lower than A tier is crazy to me. It upcasts so well! It can instantly increase the survivability of your team by 20% or more.
Yup. Low key, I think AID, particularly an Extended AID, might be the best Spell buff in the game for its level. At least until Foresight comes into play.
Yea! My mind was blown!!!!! Aid is amazing.
The only thing I can think is because he DMs so often… is aid less effective cast daily when the DM starts taking it into consideration for each combat?
That’s the only reason I can think someone would put aid anywhere but A. Hell, might make an argument for S.
Instead, he’s got aid in C tier. Right next to that oh so often used *checks notes* arcane lock??
Agree, it is not just a heal, it is actually a PRE heal, with the Extended Spell Metamagic, you can also just use your highest left over spell slot, and cast it at your teammate for next 16hour, which probably covers at least 1 fight after your long rest
I don’t think he considered up casting
@LyleAshbaugh it vaguely factored into it but I tried to keep things as level appropriate as possible.
Aid is not just a heal, it is actually a PRE heal, with the Extended Spell Metamagic, you can also just use your highest left over spell slot, and cast it at your teammate for next 16hour, which probably covers at least 1 fight after your long rest.
Not even mentioning upcast, lv5 upcast is literally 20 max hp for 3 members, imagine on a Barbarian or someone with really high AC, it is sooo good. (Wizard: that could double my max hp...)
So already at the start of the video, i could hate this one
My group invested in a shop and used magic mouth as advertisement every time a customer walks through the door.
Haha that’s awesome!
I think Cordon of Arrows should be C-tier. The 2d4 piercing damage on a failed DEX save is a deceptive ribbon feature, what this spell really gives you is four arrows that can magically detect ANY intruder, no matter how stealthy, and leap out of the ground in a straight line towards them the second they come within 30 feet, instantly giving you a clear indicator of their presence and current position. The arrows also ignore anyone you consider an ally when casting the spell and are immovably embedded in the earth until triggered, which means they can easily be rigged to set off bigger, mundane traps if you tie bits of string to them. Or just tie a jingle-bell to each one so you can hear where it strikes. Also, it's not explicit in the spell, but I think a reasonable DM would agree that the arrow closest to an intruder is the one that triggers when they enter the spell's area, which could allow you to set up different traps for different approaches. Not exactly an every-day spell but still a very fun situational one.
Awesome video though, I'm always a sucker for a good tier list :)
It’s a fun and situational spell for sure. The thing is that there are still better and cheaper ways of accomplishing this. Cordon of Arrows doesn’t stop an intruder from getting in. It kinda just tickles them. You also don’t get any notice that someone did get somewhere. Setting up traps will be better 9/10. I wish it was much better. I love the concept.
See this one is bad on its own but is better because it can stack on top of each other. I mean if you're a ranger and have a bunch of unused spell slots before taking a long rest using them all on good berries and cordon of is a pretty good idea.
I mean, let's just say you're done with the day you had only two encounters. You have two level two spell slots, and a level 3 spell slot
Why would you not just stack it on this spell. It's really not a combat spell. It's something you stag on top of each other. Your defend the camp spell if you will
It's a very good NPC spell for bosses to utilize and prep against the party. I added it to a white dragon's dragon lair (said white dragon had access to Ranger spells) and all arrows triggered
Agree with the poster. It's crazy to rate it as F while it offers great utility. If you don't rate this spell high enough it means your DM is allowing you too much safety while you rest outside a city and you may not be doing (subjectively) enough encounters per day to feel the need to rest.
Bold assumption lol. Especially considering the spell is effectively duplicated by someone just looking :P
Thanks for making these videos, they're really well organized and I'm using them more to get a refresher on all of my spell choices than for the tier placement. Just having the text on screen, in chapters, with some quick notes helps a lot to evaluate relative value within a tier. Appreciate all of the hard work!
Crazy thing happened in my game recently...
A character with Warlock Pact Slots multiclassed to get Aid..
Now they Spend their Warlock Slots to cast it at 5th level, on everyone in the party, and then take a Short Rest.
Now everyone just permanently has 20 more HP 🤷
Better Yet...be a Celestial Warlock!
@Silverythoughts yup, didn't realize it was added to the free spells.
In a different game, I played a Divine Soul Sorcerer, and used Extended spells to cast a Bunch of buffs with 16 hour durations... The campaign was such that we could pick our days to adventure, and head back to town afterwards, so it was pretty perfect.
My wizard used magic mouth for an alarm system at our staffed guild hall. Since the trigger doesn’t rely on a particular creature’s senses, just that it could be sensed, it thwarts basically all stealthy infiltration methods.
“Shedding light and shredding blights” hell yeah
Hahaha I’m glad someone enjoyed that! :)
The value of a niche spell seems to often depend on the spell preparation rules for the class. Locate Animals or Plants is terrible if you have to dedicate a prepared spell slot on it for an entire level, but druids and rangers can prepare it after a long rest, use it, and replace it on the next long rest.
Find steed in S tier! Haha thanks for humoring me. I do think it's basically the best level 2 spell.
It’s a total banger, for sure!
No idea why but these teir lists are so relaxing to watch.
I genuinely love sitting down to watch a solid 20-30 minute tier list video for exactly that reason lol! It’s a big part of why I’m doing this series, it’s something I would watch :)
No joke and no disrespect - I fall asleep to them! Good news is: multiple views because I always have to watch multiple times 🙂
I wonder if the solution to spells with super concentration (cit.) like Crown of Madness and Witch bolt would have been, ironically, to remove concentration: they require your bonus action to maintain or the effect ends, but you can combine them with another concentration spell.
In my games, I've reinterpreted Augury's "weal or wo" as "risk vs. reward", making the ratio of those two factors what determines the outcome of the reading.
Enthrall should require no saving throw and automatically succeed, unless the target is immune to being Charmed or hostile to you. Like Detect Thoughts, maybe it can allow for a check (Insight, imo) to allow a target to figure out what's happening. It's a very circumstantial spell that splits the party almost by design.
Find Traps should give everyone advantage on checks to find, identify, and disarm traps you've sensed.
Good point about Flame Blade and OAs!
Gentle Repose is incredibly useful at 5th level, when you have access to Revivify but may not have enough spell slots to cats it in the midst of combat.
I think what's keeping you from bumping Heat Metal up to S tier is the fact that it requires a metal object in the first place.
You've really made me re-evaluate Levitate.
I wonder if you could combine Magic Mouth with Glyph of Warding or Symbol to functionally extend the range at which they activate, by having the mouth speak a trigger word when someone comes within range of those spells?
With the new Nystul's Magic Aura, there's definitely shenanigans. I think it's been mentioned that you can use it in conjunction with Planar Binding to do game-breaking things.
Think my favorite is how you can Nystul magic aura something then awaken it - essentially making anything your pet for 30 days
Invisibility S
-> You can use it in or out of combat
-> upcast for more creatures
-> Spells "YOU CAN SEE" you are immun from maybe 50 or more spells invisible
-> "every" campain should have a good moment for it
Hold Person high A
-> repeat save
-> but most important ONLY Humanoid you could have real trouble in a undead, devil, fey,... campain
-> no out of combat use?
Summon Beast S at level 3
-> 1 Ally 13AC 30 HP !! (Fly 20HP)
-> Packt Tactics or
-> Flyby
-> Fly, climb or swim speed (Wather Breathing)
-> If you get in a wather fight it should outperform most player characters
(no Suffocating, no extra movement costs, no disadvantage on attacks -> some Weapons are with out)
-> Darkvision
-> Can block the way, should get OP Attacks?
-> resemles an animal of your choice/enviroment
-> maybe out of combat use ?
-> BIG it scales with Level -> Multiattack, AC and HP !
For a level 3 Caster a +30HP meat shield is wow,..
Fighter/Paladin/Ranger +2Con (lev 3)
10+2 + 6+2 + 6+2 -> 28HP
Bard/Cleric/Druid/Monk/Rogue/Warlock + 2Con (lev 3)
8+2 + 5+2 + 5+2 -> 24HP
Sorcerer/Wizard
6+2 + 4+2 + 4+2 -> 20HP
Yeah, having Invisibility available is always going to be impactful for creative players.
Aid at its base level is pretty underwhelming, but when upcasting it can very good. 20 extra max HP for a 5th level slot can make a big difference
I'll keep feeding the algo by posting my own tier list. I'll be mentioning "circumstances" a lot, and those also include things like specific builds (e.g. Shillelagh ranger or wizards not preparing rituals), being a ritual, only being good at certain levels, requiring concentration when there are better options, or the component being too costly for the spell's effect/level (e.g. Chromatic Orb, Identify).
S (extremely useful in many/most circumstances, arguably OP): 5
- Aid (sorry), Find Steed, Nystul's Magic Aura (shenanigans), Spike Growth, Suggestion (literal interpretation)
A (very useful in many circumstances OR irreplaceable in its niche): 14
- Barkskin, Detect Thoughts, Gentle Repose, Heat Metal, Invisibility, Lesser Restoration, Locate Objects, Misty Step, Pass without Trace, Phantasmal Force (iron maiden and cooperative DM), Prayer of Healing, Rope Trick, See Invisibility, Web, Zone of Truth
B (somewhat useful in many circumstances AND great in its niche): 11
- Augury, Blindness/Deafness, Cloud of Daggers, Darkness, Dragon's Breath, Hold Person, Levitate, Magic Weapon, Shatter, Shining Smite, Summon Beast
C (somewhat useful in many circumstances OR great in its niche): 15
- Arcane Lock, Blur, Calm Emotions, Enhance Ability, Enlarge/Reduce, Flaming Sphere, Knock, Mind Spike, Mirror Image, Moonbeam, Protection from Poison, Ray of Enfeeblement, Scorching Ray, Silence, Spider Climb, Spiritual Weapon
D (circumstantial): 11
- Alter Self, Animal Messenger, Arcane Vigor, Beast Sense, Continual Flame, Darkvision, Flame Blade, Gust of Wind, Locate Animals or Plants, Melf's Acid Arrow, Warding Bond
F (very circumstantial AND bad in its own niche): 5
- Cordon of Arrows, Crown of Madness, Enthrall, Find Traps, Magic Mouth
moonbeam in c is just wrong, you literally dont have to move it to keep getting free damage, no action cost, its one of the best spells you can cast before going into wildshape to stack up damage, if they dont move away from you you dont have to move moonbeam, if they do move you get an opportunity attack potentially with sentinel
Agreed. On paper this doesn't seem that great but in practice the only time it's ever less than fantastic is when the combat is unexpectedly short. My group calls it "sticking someone in the microwave"
Yeah moonbeam is a bread and butter for Druid’s. There are better dps spells, but a 2x2 hazard that any team member can make use of is great… con save definitely isn’t the best but radiant is almost never resisted
@@theredwind I guess maybe that's the only reason for C; only available to Druids ("Can shine in specific circumstances. They might have limited uses...")
The description has changed a lot. It does damage when it enters the space of an enemy, and unlike flaming sphere its move doesn't stop there. It's area denial without using an action, and using an action it's a 10' wide 60' long (not necessarily straight) 2d10 aoe. At level 3 this cleans up a lot of minions with 2 actions (1 to cast, next to move).
We call it the orbital death laser. The 4 square area allows for surgical sweepstakes across the battlefield.
It is pleasantly weird how many spells that were very useful in 1e and 2e are still around, even though they've become increasingly niche.
I can agree on most of these but pass without trace being only B? Nah mate it is so good. Im suprised they didnt change it!
It is a very good spell for sure, B tier still represents that! Stealth is common and important but it still is just doing that one thing. Granted, maybe A since being stealthy can enable some additional elements of play too!
I’m also surprised they didn’t change it, I’ve mentioned in videos before that I think the design is problematic.
Pass without trace has been heavily nerfed by the change to surprise rules so it’s not so bad now
16:31 They did fix the “cook and book” tech where you just cast Heat Metal and run away by limiting the extra damage to while you are in range
I wasn’t even considering the running away element: you don’t need to, it’s just free damage.
@@InsightCheck It sounds like you're not familiar with the "cook and book" technique he's referring to. That was a big problem, and they fixed it.
The fact they didn't fix crown of madness....is madness. I only use a homebrew version.
13:00
One thing I'd like to point out about Enlarge/Reduce is that when someone get's enlarged, so do their weapons. If you use the rules for weapon sizes, then that means your great axe wielding barbarian is suddenly gonna be dealing 2d12+1d4 damage on each hit (large weapons have twice the amount of damage dice).
Arcane Vigor is a Wizard Spell. Eldritch Knights & Arcane Tricksters get access to this. More than a d6, it can be a d10 or d8, respectfully.
It could translate to being a Spell version of Second Wind OR Durable feat.
Also Abjuration Wizards can use it to help restore their ward and also heal themselves a tad
Phantasmal Force has been hilarious in my home game, where we put creatures in a hot cube. the creature can't target us, and takes damage. It worked well enough, especially since when we used it against a beholderkin, it failed the skill check every turn. so basically it could be a low level hold monster, if the monster is large or smaller.
That’s amazing, I honestly love the spell, it’s so much fun.
Pass Without Trace as a “B Tier” spell!?!?! That is an S Tier spell if I have ever seen one. Absolutely crazy to drop it in B.
Also, yeah, Aid is an easy A Tier as well.
B is a very good rating, I would encourage you to review the descriptions at the beginning of the video for each tier.
Pass Without Trace is phenomenal at what it does. But stealth is one small part of the game. Yes, being stealthy *can* lead to other things but that’s all impossible to gauge because there are quite literally infinite possibilities of what may or may not happen in someone’s game based on a successful stealth check.
WARLOCK: Some spells may need reconsideration when evaluated from a Warlock's perspective, especially with the potential for upcasting. While many spells are impressive at the level they are first acquired, those that cannot scale through upcasting can lose their appeal over time. Conversely, spells that initially seem underwhelming might gain value due to their upcasting potential, making them worth a second look.
I mean, I don't think it's going to be THAT important. If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing. What do I mean by this? Several spells on 5.24e scale by allowing you additional targets, e.g. Tasha's hideous laughter or Command. If you're into the spell for its upcasting potential, it needs to already do something worth a spell slot in the first place.
Scrolls. I think where a lot of these spells shine is in Spell Scrolls. At 2nd level, they’re still pretty affordable, but pack a lot of utility. Arcane Lock, Calm Emotions, Darkvision, Enlarge/Reduce, Gentle Repose, Knock, Lesser Restoration, Levitate, Locate Object, Rope Trick, See Invisibility, Silence, Spider Climb, Zone of Truth… all excellent in the right situation, but not always worth your spell prep slot. It’s a pretty low cost to have these for exactly when you want them.
Yeah this is a fair point. The assumption being made here is that you are casting through a spell slot and not a scroll.
@@Artharazon Yes! Scrolls are incredibly under appreciated especially for the highly situational spells.
@@InsightCheck good assumption since scrolls completely change how low level spells can impact a game. Nothing quite throws off the scary invisible horde of demons encounter like three arcanists whipping out the scrolls of See Invisibility they've been carrying for so long, everyone had forgotten about them.
I'll be making a comment and editing it as I watch the video.
Aid is actually an amazing spell for one simple reason, it give actual hit points and not temporary HP. This means that it stacks with things like inspiring leader, or other ways to give out Temporary hit points.
Darkness is amazing it works especially well with parties that can build around it. For example, those with fighting styles take blindfighting and a warlock/ranged attackers take Devils Sight.
Find Traps...HOW THE FUCK DOES IT STILL NOT FIND TRAPS!
Heat Metal is really nice. The good ol' cook and book.
Find Steed is really nice as well. Mounted combat is really nice, especially when used with ranged combat.
Hold Person is devastating if it lands. One time, I was able to land it and the fighter nearly ended the boss in a single round.
Mirror Image used to be nearly useless on a well built wizard. But, now it is very nice as it works better the higher your AC is.
Rope Trick is amazing. Especially sense you can duck in and out of it to pepper the enemy, hiding away from counter attack.
Scorching Ray is an amazing spell, at higher levels. At this level, its okay. But, when you cast it and combine it with a spell that deals extra damage per hit, the potential damage is outstanding.
Spike Growth is absolutely amazing. Especially, since forced movement forces the damage to happen repeatedly. If the entire party can combo with the spell, this one Second level spell can deal hundreds of damage per round.
I'm glad that Spiritual Weapon has been nerfed. It has never been a good spell and now hopefully, people will stop taking it. The amount of damage it deals is so low that regeneration can out heal it. Not to mention that if a creature is moving, the weapon will never catch up. Outside of the slowest of slow enemies. Never take Spiritual Weapon. You'd be better off casting literally any other spell.
Suggestion, on the other hand, has always been a good spell to get out of sticky situations. Especially now that the Suggestion only needs to be achievable and not reasonable. Meaning that you can tell an enemy to fail any subsequent saves that the party has it make.
Warding Bond is a really cool and interesting spell. I just wish that I could find situations in which another spell or action would be better. Dealing damage or using a control spell tends effective in reducing damage, so I don't see it used often.
Web is one of the most powerful spells in the game and my personal favorite spell in the game. It was the first true control spell that I cast and I've loved control spells ever since. Just being able to shut down so many enemies. and the fact that they must take an action to escape makes it so good. Especially when you work with other characters.
Yeah I mentioned it stacking with temporary hit points too!
Yeah, you did. I think that you undervalued that aspect a bit. Personally, I take this on every character I can unless the party already has everyone covered. Then it gets cast at the end of every long rest.
I also think I undervalued it.
I enjoyed the rest of your list by the way!
@@eldritchdefender7785You missed summon beast, but yes good points.
@ I’m wasn’t going over every spell. But, Summon Beast is a decent spell.
It’s generally not very useful. But, it could be alright in some niche situations
I never even knew of that spell that can change the way your creature type is perceived by other spells.
That’s very unique and could be major 🤔
~_~
It’s a very interesting effect for sure! It has tons of potential!
Ok, some differences here. Misty step should be an S tier spell. Bonus action for a 30 ft teleport. This allows you to escape grapples, flee an enemy without an attack of opportunity, close with an enemy, teleport past minions to engage the target behind them, teleport past your tanks to get fo areas of safety. It is probably the best 2nd level spell in the game. Cloud of daggers, while nice, is actually worse then moonbeam. You have an automatic 10 dmg vs 5 to 11 damage, however, cloud of daggers is a teleport for additional damage, while moonbeam travels for additional damage. This means that if monsters are spread out enough, you only do 10 dmg per turn. However, with a 60 ft movement, you can reliably hit even more monsters, most possibly every monster on the combat. Say a combat with 6 monsters. With some ok spacing, probably 2 monsters. However, moonbeam will tag all 6, meaning you already are doing 1.5 the damage even if all monsters succeed on the save. As for scorching ray, it is lower tier, however, with wizards, you can now unlock conjure minor elementals. Assume level for this experiment. 2 5th level spells. Turn 1, upcast conjure elemental. Turn 2, upcast scorching ray. While it requires a set up turn, you are now dealing 2d6+5d8 per ray. That is a total of 12d6+30d8 single target damage, for a total of 177 dmg on avg.
Good list. Given this list and the past lists for 1st level spells & Cantrips, I think you are a bit more generous with giving out the highly touted S-tier designation. It also seems like C-tier is the the default 'does what it says on the tin' rank. I would certainly switch Mind Spike and Warding bond, if not put Warding Bond lower. Also, while Locate Object may not be as niche as Locate Animals or Plants, it is still pretty niche and the range limitation of 1000 feet really serves to limit it further. I can't argue with Acid Splash too much, except to say that the devs seem to far overvalue damage over time spells. Does it offer the opportunity to force two Concentration saves? Sure. But most of the time you would rather have x+y damage now over x now and y later; especially when y is a fairly piddly amount. That is kind of a nice niche for acid damage spells, though: ongoing damage. It does serve to differentiate the damage type from others. Too bad they are getting away from that, it would be nice if went: acid: damage over time; cold slowing; lightning taking away opportunity attacks; Thunder increasing damage to objects or breaking things; poison can inflict the poisoned condition; and fire just does a bit more damage.
I also slightly disagree with your take on Nystal's Magic Aura. I don't like the interpretation that you can just cast it on someone and have them be immune to Hold Person, for example. Or cast it on a demon and have them be subject to it. In my view Hold Person only affects Humanoids because it does not have enough power/scope/juice to effect other creature types; not because it 'detects' the creature type and decides "Mmmm, not on my racial profiling list, better not." The spell itself does not care what the creature type is, it just won't work on other types. It's like saying "if I fool the electricity in the circuit to think this wooden stick is metal, this stick is now a conductor!" The electricity does not care, it just follows the natural path according to what is there. It would take something like Polymorph to do that. Sure, for things like Glyphs of Warding, the Alarm spell, and Locate Creature, it will work swimmingly. That's just my take. But I admit the wording is certainly open to interpretation, I just find the it far too powerful of an effect for a second level Illusion spell.
First spell and I already feel compelled to comment. You are massively underselling Aid. The use you talk about is a bit niche, sure. But that is not how you use aid to good effect. It upcasts really well and that many additional hit points is a huge difference across the whole party for the whole day. It's one of the most effective healing actions the caster is going to take all day, because it persists all days. You can regain hp back up to your new max. So it stacks with every other healing effect in the game. It's really a very, very good spell. It's just not flashy at all. Aid is easily an A, could even be S.
The thing about Phantasmal Force is that the DM fiat of it is worse than just “ok, they take the Study Action every turn until they see it’s an illusion”. That at least is eating up their Action. It’s that they can walk out of the area of effect even if the illusion would be something they perceive as impassable, then justify it in whatever way the DM wants.
Aid is one of the best spells in the game... C?!
Love your videos, almost all great takes but "Pass Without Trace, solid B tier spell" made me lightheaded. That is tier 3-4 expertise bonus to stealth, that stacks on top of any proficiencies for the whole party. With the old surprise rules (still good with new rules) or for exploration/infiltration it might as well be the shield spell.
Glad you enjoy my videos :)
As for Pass Without Trace, it’s come up a couple of times in the comments so I will just copy/paste what I’ve said already in another comment.
B is a very good rating, I would encourage you to review the descriptions at the beginning of the video for each tier.
Pass Without Trace is phenomenal at what it does. But stealth is one small part of the game. Yes, being stealthy *can* lead to other things but that’s all impossible to gauge because there are quite literally infinite possibilities of what may or may not happen in someone’s game based on a successful stealth check.
@@InsightCheck Fair enough, didn't look at it that way
Magic Mouth with some creativity is incredibly useful. Build up a variety of mouths on rocks or other things you carry around. With reusable triggers
A very useful review, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I'd love to see some comparison of the lower level "always hit" options (magic missile, witch bolt, and cloud of daggers come to mind). Maybe with some math - or is that a Treantmonk thing?!
Love this Videos, keep the good work 💪
Thank you! :)
Prophecies tell of a time when dragon’s breath will actually be able to benefit from the draconic sorcerer’s elemental affinity
But if you upcast Continual Flame, it goes through Darkness, which is cool
AFAIK Barkskin can't be combined with anything.
A clarification from the devs would be nice but i think that after all AC calculations you check if your AC is lower than 17. Not even the shield spell would be added on top.
I heard it once as a "last line of defense" type of defense. If they reached your skin then the Barkskin applies
It can go either way. I would say that Shields do work with it since they aren’t impacting the way your AC is calculated, they are just adding to it. Armour though, does impact how AC is calculated at a base level. There is an old tweet from Mike Mearls suggesting this is correct but really I think it’s just a table decision. I would allow it to work.
The only instance in which alter self is better than aid is in a combatless campaign
They have completely different use cases. That’s why these spells aren’t compared against each other within their respective tiers.
What are your thoughts on hard defined spell lists?
Placing Magic Mouth on a piece of jewellery can warn you if there is a creature in x ft who is invisible, or any fast catchall warning you select, so A+ or S- tier for me
I love your lists. You rock. But you have got to be trolling with aid at C tier. Isn’t it universally considered one of the best/most broken spells in the game? Is it just my little echo chamber? I feel gaslit right now.
Hey anything is possible! I’ve never really seen or heard of it being all that busted but it is certainly exceptional in certain situations! It could probably be in B, but I’ve never said I don’t make mistakes haha :)
Glad you enjoy my lists!
No. It's not you. It's definitely better than a C. Probly A.
Every party I have ever played in or DMd has cast this spell every single day, usually at the highest possible level. And often, players get a whole feat (meta magic adept) just to be able to extend this spell so it can be cast at the higher level before a long rest
lol that’s amazing! In my years of DM’ing for a few different groups I think I’ve seen the spell cast two or three times haha. I’ve seen discussions about it in the past but just never seemed that “broken”. I’m still not convinced that it is, but it could probably be at least B.
@@InsightCheck I think that just speaks to how groups have their own styles. And let’s be honest, that’s part of what makes this game fun.
I think my surprise was mostly based on the fact that I didn’t think this was one of those spells that was more group specific. It’s just a health buff for the whole party (I don’t remember using it for healing).
Great tear list 🥲
Thanks! :)
Acid arrow is almost always rendered obsolete by magic missile
Summon beast is a great spell as it’s a cast & forget. It doesn’t need your action or bonus action on subsequent turns to get full damage from it.
Not to mention it can also tank for you. If they’re attacking your summon they aren’t attacking you. Easily A tier.
I would certainly not go so far as to say it’s “cast and forget” considering it requires concentration so you always need to consider it when evaluating your next move.
@@InsightCheckTrue, but I was comparing it to cloud of daggers & other concentration spells which do require your action or ba.
Spiritual weapon being nerfed by adding concentration is very heartbreaking.
And the bonus action to move it and attack was also curbed down to 20ft
Arcane vigor -- the big value here is if you need to "spend HD" to do something... now you can do that thing... in combat! e.g bloodwell vial
Yesss, I've been waiting for this!!
Hope you enjoy it :)
@@InsightCheck I very much did :-)
You had a lot of C-tier spells that probably should have either been higher or lower. Off the top of my head, Aid and Moonbeam should have been higher, and Enhance Ability, Magic Mouth, and Melf's Acid Arrow should have been lower. It's funny how much different our table plays vs yours on some of the highest tier.
If you think Magic Mouth is anything than S tier, you don't know how to use it. It's permanent and automatic detection of traps, invisible creatures, shapeshifters and many more.
I think we have very different gaming experiences. I must have disagreed with about 75% of your rankings and that is not necessarily a bad thing. The fact that the community disagree on how good or bad a spell is suggests to me that the spells are more balanced and a player’s style of play has a bigger impact on how they perceive a spell’s use.
Agree
Almost all druids now want to take war caster. You can attack with flame blade with warcaster as a reaction
Shillelagh (club) / Flame Blade two weapon fighting druid is an intriguing possibility until Conjure Minor Elementals comes around.
I'm not sure this works RAW. But obviously DMs should allow it.
The first spell you ranked is easily the spiciest pick of the whole video XD
It sure seems that way haha
@@tibot4228 Aid is a bit of a sleeper.
@@PatricRogers Idk if I agree, it's a formidable spell when you get it and remains useful when you have tons of spell slots to burn XD
@@tibot4228 yeah, that's what I meant. On the surface, it's like"5 HP? That sounds pretty lame." But, as you said, once people start using it, and upcasting it, suddenly players are breaking the DM's encounters with it, because they can soak (and recover with magic or short rests) so much more damage over time.
@@tibot4228 right? Ha. Yeah, what a way to start off 😉 good for the algorithms, though, right? 😄
Aid is the new Thornwhip, no I still haven’t forgotten.
Alter self -- the big issue is that iot's concentration !!
Cordon of Arrows as F Tier is too harsh reflecting the Tier 1/2 play it was designed for. If you can choose the battlefield or place the arrows on a moveable location such as a ship, you are getting an extra attack per turn...and possibly during combat turns where you are completely hidden and unable to be attacked.
Additionally the point of the spell is NOT area denial but as an alarm. A completely invisible camp interloper will trigger the arrows at distance. An enemy disguised as your ally will be attacked by the arrows.
Lots of low level spells are not really worth spell slots but are perfect 'one per day' spells from magic items.
Heat Metal is S. The most important part is not the damage but that if the creature is wearing metal, it will make all attacks at a disadvantage. If you see enough of Esper's Monster Melee, you will how ridiculous this spell is.
The spell is ridiculously good, but the fact that it requires a creature to be wearing metal immediately makes it not S. as shown at the beginning and discussed throughout the video, the intent here is to rate spells based on general applicability and quality. Needing metal is a huge caveat. If you’re in a jungle fighting animals or animated plants, Heat Metal isn’t doing a whole lot for you.
@@InsightCheck In that context, I do agree. But if a creature is wearing metal, it is pretty much GG. I would always take it, if I had the chance. Even in a Jungle there are going to be Brigands and other humans to cook in their armor. However, by that same definition, Hold Person should be A, because if you are fighting animals, fey, undead or anything but humans. That is not going to help you :P
Really good Tier List, btw. I am just nitpicking, hopefully to bring another perspective to viewers
2nd level spells are weird, there are some really good spells like Aid, cloud pf daggers or find steed, and than there are some michelaneous spells that are really rare to use like eternal flame (i only saw the used in dungeons description) magic mouth rr cordon of arrows, that for me look like more as DM's toolbox spells to use to create or enhance structure or to build up some traps than to be really used by players, like magic jar or simulacrum or other high level plot spells...
I always have trouble on choosing 2nd and even 4th level spells as s spellcaster for this reason
Nystul's Magic Aura is a great DM-Spell...
Oops! The Big Bad Vampire now detects as Human to all spells!
And so does his Simulacrum!
It can also be used for stupidly strong exploits, like making something be effected as a Celestial, so you can cast Planar Binding on it, or make it so that Beholder is effected as a Beast, so you can use a 4th level casting of Dominate Beast instead of an 8th level casting of Dominate Monster... It's... really weird, and I don't like how effective it is...
Cloud of daggers S tier? U serious bro?
Ok it's a pure damage spell so let's compare it to a pure damage lvl1 spell, Witch bolt.
Witch bolt, on its initial cast, can deal (spell attack) 2d12 damage (average13) to a single target, then you use your bonus action to deal 1d12 to the same target.
Cloud of daggers deals, no questions asked, 4d4 damage (average 9) to more often than not, a single target, unless there's something flying overhead, then you consume your full action to deal the same damage to another target.
You're getting very similar results, with an arguably better damage type (lightning) with a lvl1 spell, except it doesn't consume your very valuable full round action.
A few points to make.
1) yes I am serious :)
2) I also rated Witch Bolt as S tier
3) I am not comparing between spell levels and I am also not comparing between spells. You’ll notice everything here just went at the end, every spell is so different it would be next to impossible to rank them amongst each other.
4) Cloud of Daggers is average 10 damage
5) the point of CoD isn’t to spend your action moving it to another target. Ideally it’s used in a space where a target is stuck or combined with another creature grappling or otherwise restraining.
6) it isn’t just a passive Bonus Action tax. It’s also not even an action tax unless you wanted to move it.
Cloud of Daggers is an excellent spell. So is Witch Bolt (now).
@@InsightCheck
First of all, thanks for taking the time for such a well structured reply! Really adds to the analysis.
That said, I'm comparing it to a lvl1 spell because the jump between lvl1 and 2 spells is meaningful and, as you state in your opening, it's very much hit or miss in that gap between that power void where lvl3 spells are a BIG jump for most classes. So, by definition, the lvl2 spell, in order to be considered great, should offer way more than what a great lvl1 spell does.
The action economy is to be considered, imo, because you relying on others for the spell to be effective is not the soundest of plans. Also it's going to require their action economy and some good luck to be effective, which is why i compared it to a single-use scenario. Concentration is also a valuable resource and, if worse comes to worst, using up both concentration and action to deal 10 average damage, does not exactly scream S tier to me, for a pure damage lvl2 spell.
So I'll have to disagree on your analysis. IMO Cloud of daggers is way better than it used to, but it certainly doesn't reach S tier status (spells you go out of your way to get); heck, doesn't even reach B tier status to me, i.e. a good spell in my list I will pick-up sometime early when available, since it's not exactly very good.
Once again I appreciate your well structured response, and while it might merit SOME relevance because some classes that get it (e.g. Bard) don't get that much in the way of damage, imo, not enough to merit calling it amazing. Damage now is always more valuable than damage later, especially when it comes to concentration spells.
Aid is too clutch to be anywhere lower than A. It makes a losing battle immediately winnable again by reviving 3 allies. For a 2nd level that stays useful forever. Raising the max hit points by 5 is overrated though
Summon beast being c while warding bond is b is off. Summon beast is broadly applicable and warding bond situationally useful and problematic against area damage
How is cloud of daggers better than moonbeam?
Cloud of Daggers offers no attack roll or save, it always deals its damage with nothing to interfere. Moonbeam targets the worst save to target in the game.
@@InsightCheck The difference in average damage isn't huge. 10 for Cloud of Daggers. If we assume enemies save 50% of the time (which seems generous even for CON) then it's 8.125 for Moonbeam. But I think Radiant is likely to be more reliable than magical Slashing with the new monsters, and Moonbeam covers a bigger area, and has double the range and movement.
Beast sense is far from C for druids. For a level 1 slot or wild shape they can summon a CR 0 familiar of any sort to do the same thing, plus you have control of it, and there's no "willing" requirement. Without find familiar it's a niche spell at best, and with find familiar it's of low value.
Interesting list. Thanks!
Since this is the Internet, I'll complain. 😉
Phantasmal Force is not an S tier spell. Too much openness to DM interpretation and too many better options for locking down a foe. Solid B.
AID in C??? This person must have NEVER played tier 3. Rest casting spells are insanely strong
Yeeeeeeeeeeees, tks!
They gotta just remove Find Traps from the game at this point, it is wasting space on the page😭
Magic Mouth is S tier.
You can create earings for the whole party with triggers like "an invisible creature makes a step within 30 ft of you", or similar things for traps, glyphs of warding, poison etc. and have automatic detection of things happening around you.
It is, however, a pain in the ass to keep track of.
Flaming sphere: "It doesn't exclusively take the damage when the creature ends its turn within its range anymore, which is a nice touch"
What? Your words don't make sense to me. Did I miss something I've just reread both versions now and I'm still very confused by your wording as there's no mechanical changes to the spell from 2014.
Nothing but a simple derp :)
Most spells that used to deal damage at the end of a creatures turn now deal it also when they enter (yes I’m excluding the bonus action).
When you spend 5 days just staring at spells, your brain does all kinds of silly things.
@@InsightCheckYou did a great job with this list overall(and the cantrip and lvl 1 lists). I've been playing and DMing this game for decades and never thought to use Magic Aura defensively to avoid spells that target an aspect you are but now magic thinks you are not. I only ever thought of it as subterfuge "no high level magical cops i am not an evil caster see your magic is telling you I am good not evil and it was just coincidence the orphanage burned down the night after I entered town!" That makes the spell cooler for sure.
I’m actually surprised at how many 2nd level spells benefit with just the “magic action” a thief rogue with flame blade can bonus attack with it, or move cloud of daggers with bonus. The possibilities of this subclass just keep getting bigger for me.
This is not accurate. The Thief can use Magic action to activate a magic item, not to independently use spells or spell effects. To use scrolls you would also need a multiclass before late game.
Cloud of dagger at S and Aid at C.... Yea, this aint it chief. Even more egregious when u put Moonbeam at C.
As noted in the pinned comment, I’d consider bumping Aid up, but not higher than B. As for the other two? I’ll gladly die on that hill. I’d suggest reading the tier definitions at the beginning and the reasoning provided in each section.
For a damage comparison between Cloud of Daggers and Moonbeam: CoD deals an average of 10 damage for no save, while Moonbeam deals an average of 11 damage on a failed save, and 5.5 on a successful one. With the targeted stat being Constitution, I'd assume that saves are failed about 50% of the time, which would put Moonbeam's average damage at 8.25.
@tibot4228 there’s also more to it since CoD is one far more lists than Moonbeam and there is value in knowing that when cast, CoD will always land so there is only one element of variance (damage rolls) rather than two (damage rolls and a save).
crown of madness is an insane control spell. completely disagree. it can fully lock down an enemy humanoid, they have to waste their action every turn. if they dont have minions it can basically wipe an encounter.
Remember that they must do so *before they move*. If there is no creature within their reach (typically 5 feet) then the spell does nothing and the creature can do whatever it wants and the spell has no effect.
It’s quite the opposite of what you said, if they don’t have minions, the spell does literally nothing. And let’s be real, who is going to stand next to the guy with a spectral crown of jagged iron that mysteriously appeared over its head lol.
I think you've misread the spell. If they don't immediately make the attack, they get their full turn unhindered. It literally does nothing against a single enemy.