Is Goro Akechi Really a Wild Card?
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Persona 5 Striker came out recently, so this is still relevant -- right?
Hello everyone and welcome to another theory! This time it's about if Goro is actually a wild card or not. By taking a look at the series overall, including the lore from Persona 1 to Persona Q2, it doesn't make sense that Akechi could possibly be a wild card. He's from the Justice Arcana, not the Fool Arcana -- plus, he's hardly a blank slate.
Instead, Goro Akechi seems to have special powers for a whole other reason: shadow selves.
I hope you enjoy the video -- I went a bit more 'edited' rather than just talking over game play this time around.
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I believe that line about Akechi lacking bonds was misinterpreted as it never was how wild cards worked. He doesn't lack personas because of his lack of bonds, but rather his 2 personas reflect why he doesn't have bonds. His unwillingness to open up. He hides behind the facade of Robin Hood, a 'mask," while Loki is is hatred and true intentions.
But don't Wildcards get powered up by their bonds??? Social Links/ Confidants, I mean.
@@MintyCoolness It doesn’t reflect the personas they carry or the amount
@@Antasma1 Well, considering the fact that fake!Igor ups your count based on his bond, and that you get personas when you max a link with someone, i say it does
@@MintyCoolness Well, through magic not his “bond”
@@Antasma1 I'll cop to that, as stock amount increased during level experience in previous games, but my latter point still stands.
"Philemon"
* lights cigarette * I haven't heard that name in years
I know this is old but, Maruki seemed to have a palace and persona long before he gained control of Mementos. Considering Kasumi accidentally entered it. When she gained her persona.
So having a distorted world view and persona is very possible.
He only had the Palace. His Persona was only awakened when Mementos fused with the real world and Yaldabaoth was defeated which caused his power to pass onto Maruki due to the Phantom Thieves' wish to have him take power and actualize their ideal reality, even if it was only subconsciously. He has both at the same time only when he's literally god modding.
It was revealed in an interview that he awakened to both of his Personas at once, but this idea is so much cooler, and makes more sense. Also, good catch with the Persona Q Wild Card issue. That does make it hard to definitively call him a Wild Card.
Hello! Have you got the source of the interview?
Where can I find this interview? I've never heard about this
@@XxStrugglerxX I wish I knew
Heard about it through word of mouth a while ago, and have tried looking for it, but it's hard when all the results are the Akechi news interviews from the game
@@lightning9789 Hmm,then it's safe to say that it may have buen a rumor or a mistranslation,like the '''Akechi was homeless'' one that was spreading before Royal came out.
Google “persona central q and a vol 3”. I tried to put a link, but it seems UA-cam is making it hidden for public view. The article states that it was questions from fans, answered by the persona team. One question states which persona did akechi first awaken to, with the answer being both are aspects of akechi so there is no order to awakening.
Agree to disagree since Royal confirmed that Robin Hood and Loki are 2 different personas and Atlus confirmed that Akechi awakened both at once and as you play through the game with each new party member up to Haru you got more slots for personas till he got 12 so perhaps because Akechi had no bonds he only had Robin and Loki meanwhile Ren became friends with Ryuji before he discovered his ability to recruit shadows. But still it is a interesting theory
And I think Akechi's prince outfit was part of Robin Hood's ability since Robin was for Akechi's deception and Loki is the one who causes hearts or shadows to go psychotic
I believe the fake Igor mentioned giving Aketchi and Ren the "Trickster" powers and why. He started he wanted to see who would win. I really like this theory but I believe that because of his corrupted view and heart and having never gone to the velvet room like The protag, he instead made shadows Uncontrollable instead of taming them. Due to never having positive relationships in his life, he never could reach his true potential which is something the twins mention to you as well. More bonds = more power and freedom
My personal interpretation is that Yaldabaoth wanted to rig the game, and so gave Akechi an advantage with the psychotic breakdowns. As a result of being so strong in will, he’s able to brute force cognition into changing his outfit to hide in the phantom thieves. Robin Hood is still his persona, just one he had never used much due to Loki being better, the same reason he didn’t get more personas. He had what he thought he needed.
I love the video and the effort you put into it.
However, I have some contention points (which is not me attacking your opinion, just pointing out some potential flaws in the theory, which I would love to hear your opinion on.)
While Persona Q is Canon, so is Persona 4 Arena (and its sequel Ultimax [Spoiler Warning for said games] ).
Continuing from Persona 3 Fes: The Answer, and Persona 4 Golden, we know that both Aegis and Yu Narukami are Wild Cards. If we were to optimistically assume that at the end of Elizabeth's route, she gains a Wild Card. If we were to assume that Sho Minazuki eventually does sign the contract Igor offered him, that would mean that Inaba would be holding four Wild Cards simultaneously.
Even if we assume that Elizabeth and Sho do not count towards the Wild Card total, the ability doesn't go wonky like it does in Persona Q, as only Aegis and Yu swap Personas in the game (As their insta-kill moves). This means that two Wild Cards can be in an area without things going crazy, which implies that Akechi can be a Wild Card without throwing the universe out of wack.
So moving back to Akechi, during the entire second phase of his boss fight, he claims that "Teammates are nothing but Trash!". Along with the past two years of seeing the corrupt form of society through Shido and his Cohorts, he feels very little towards people, only using them as stepping stones (i.e., Sae Nijima).
It's implied in Royal (yet not outright stated, so this is merely speculation from the community). His first True Bond/Confidant since he awoke his Persona is Joker. Again, during the boss fight, when Morgana claims Akechi doesn't actually hate Joker, Akechi yells at Morgana to "Shut up, shut up, shut up!" because "Teammates!? Friends!? To Hell with that!" because that's all he's known. The last person he cared about was his mother. He doesn't know how to deal with feelings like Friendship.
So while Akechi had Loki for two years, causing the Mental Shutdowns, it would make sense that Loki would be Stronger than Robinhood- who Akechi would've gained in June- when he met Joker. During Sae's Palace, Robinhood is Level 46 (I believe?) upon gaining Crow and knows skills like Megidola, Kouga, and Eiga. However, upon fighting Loki, he has moves like Brave Blade, Heat-Raiser, and Megidolaon, who is about Level 61.
If we were to assume that after Sae's Palace, Akechi never went back to the Metaverse (as he would have no need to, all that would be left to do is get Shido), Where would he have gotten time to make Loki stronger? Why would Robinhood be weaker than Loki? Because he was newer.
This, at least, is why I am leaning more towards Akechi being a Wild Card.
Don't get me started on the whole potential of him using Reversed Arcana Personas either; that's a whole other can o' worms.
Either way, this Video you made earned you a sub.
(I just want to preference this by saying I love your ideas and am not trying to 'attack' them. I really love having debates like this where people go back and forth on ideas since I think that helps make things clearer -- Very Ace Attorney style)
I did think about the Arena games when making the video and came to the conclusion that it was still viable. After all, weird things do happen in the TV world while they're fighting. Labrys' shadow acts very different from all the others ones we've seen (taking on Teddie's appearance and looking like the shadow selves of who ever fights them). While it's not the exact same as what happens in Q, it's still weird.
Plus, I'm not sure if I truly want to count Aigis. Yes, she is a wild card but she isn't one by nature. She's technically pulling on Minato's power and he's no where near Inaba at the time.
As for the leveling of Robin Hood vs Loki -- It's quite possible that Goro just doesn't use Robin Hood as much despite having him longer. After all, very few people do full runs of the game with Arsene, Izunagi, or Orpheus making them lower leveled despite being the ones that the protagonists have the longest.
@@tirmel (Once again, pure polite debate, not tryin' to attack your ideas and stance)
Ah, I never really thought of Aigis that way, but the way you explained it does make more sense than "Oh, she just has the ability now," as P3MC isn't really dead but just has no need for Personas as he is.
I should also highlight another issue with my own point, that Aigis isn't human either. While she does possess a soul, the whole point of 'The Answer' is her going through her newfound emotions towards MC's quote-unquote death. Aigis drawing on MC's power and not being a human in the first place would definitely explain the lessened amount of tomfoolery happening in the Arena Series.
I will definitely concede the Aigis point I was making.
As for levels, again, I will concede that point as well, as it is entirely based on if Akechi values Robinhood outside of his healing ability. Which, Akechi would only know about if he leveled up with the Phantom Thieves, as Robinhood only gains Samarecarm at level 54. So all Akechi would know is that Loki is a Stronger, Deadlier, more Efficient version of Robinhood. Why wouldn't he use Loki more?
So, in conclusion, based on the information provided by yourself and myself, my theory depends on too much not elaborated upon enough in either game, manga, or anime.
I commend you for your research and for sticking to your guns upon meeting opposition!
But, how do we explain his "Third Awakening"? [Spoilers ahead for Third Semester for any potential people reading this that isn't that far in the game yet]
In Royal, we see Robinhood and Loki- who are indeed different Personas, fuse together to create Hereward. Unlike the other Third Awakenings, the other Awakenings are the Phantom Thieves' base Personas combined with their evolved forms to become Mega Evolution ala Persona 5.
What's going on with Hereward? If Akechi isn't a Wild Card, how would he fuse two Separate Personas together? While he wasn't in the Velvet Room, the only other people shown to be able to fuse Personas outside of the Velvet Room are Yu Narukami in the Persona 4 anime and Makoto Yuki in the Persona 3 Movie, both of which are Wild Cards. How do we explain the fusing of different Personas without him being a Wild Card?
Looking forward to hearing your response!
@@spesaeterna4263 That's a good point about Hereward -- it could be seen as a type of fusion.
I kind of saw it as a sort of 'coming together' for him.
While Goro clearly has issues, spending time with Akira definitely makes him somewhat of a better person allowing Goro to sort of come to terms with his childish ideals of heroism and his dark-warped version of himself. He sees that both selves can exist at the same time.
In a sense, it would be the equivalent of one of the P4 cast accepting their shadow self. Only, since he already had a persona, the persona merged and grew stronger sort of like the social links in P4 (which, we can assume the personas function like due to Futaba's dungeon).
Yu talks to the party members, helps them accept a deeper truth about themselves, and then their persona grows. Only, now, it's Akira helping Goro grow and his shadow being combined with his persona.
@@spesaeterna4263 Also, I'd love to say that I really enjoy this conversation! This type of stuff is so fun to me!
@@tirmel I really enjoy this conversation as well! To quote Akechi, 'To paraphrase Hegel "Advancement cannot occur without both Thesis and Antithesis."'
Ah, so you subscribe to the notion of Hereward being Akechi's True Persona. Similar to Lavena being split into Caroline and Justine, it could be that Hereward was divided into Loki and Robinhood.
However, I have one final point of contention. Yaldabaoth. The Demiurge stated that both Joker and Akechi were chosen to see who would win in the game he made that was rigged for Yaldabaoth to win regardless of which two actually won. So why would Yaldabaoth only assist Joker in the form of Igor? It seems unlikely that he would choose only one of his two pieces to help and leave the other to go alone.
It also makes sense from a look at what the two pieces stand for. With Joker, we have reforming Society, and with Akechi, we have the destruction and recreation of Society. When speaking with Morgana, Joker learns about Hold-ups, which is how he becomes aware of his ability as a Wild Card. Akechi, on the other hand, isn't a Thief. His goal wouldn't be more money or a good item. Akechi is a Hitman. He'd just attack the Shadow/Persona while it's down. Akechi doesn't have a need to talk to the Shadows except to extract information for Blackmail. And even those aren't Persona Shadows; those are the Shadows of People, so he couldn't gain them anyway.
And then let's not forget one of the more critical pieces of lore so far. In every previous game, Loki has been of the Fool Arcana. Why is Loki suddenly a part of the Justice Arcana in 5? It's because Loki wasn't supposed to be. The Compendium you use throughout 5 is different from 1-4, as Yaldabaoth switches things around to make things harder on you. Higher-level Personas are made weaker, and Weaker Personas are made stronger.
A few examples are as follows. First, Black Frost. Previously, Black Frost of the Fool Arcana is a level 38 Persona. But now in 5? A level 67. In Persona 5, High Pixie is of the Fool Arcana. Previously, however, High Pixie was of the Priestess. Kali is the third strongest of the Empress Arcana in 5. But before being messed around with, she used to be of the Strength Arcana. There are many more examples, but they all lead to the same thing, pointing towards Loki, and therefore Akechi, to be a Fool.
And Every Fool has been a Wild Card. It's in the nature of the Arcana. Empty and yet full of Potential.
This... actually makes a lot of sense. I didn't even think to add the point of PQ's explanation of what would happen if two Wildcards were in close proximity when deciding that Akechi is one himself. You make a very valid point
The thing about Q and Q2 is that they're set in different worlds, not exactly the same type of worlds the other games take place in, as they are sectioned off in places meant to not retain any memory in order to maintain continuity.
By that logic, the fact that two Wild Cards are in the same messed up world, an area, it could just be coincidental.
That said, two Wild Cards at a time in a stable world will do some things to it, it just wouldn't be as extreme.
Also like other comments have said a year before me, Akechi's Personas were both awakened to at once, likely as how varied the Upright and Reversed Justice card can be from a design standpoint.
I think that's it is more than just being a wild card to have things go fuckey. At least I always saw it as both Narukami and Door-Kun having strong bonds which really makes the power of the wild card (Joker too). But since Akechi never really made any strong bonds he never got that power so he wouldn't be able to make things go fuckey despite there being 2.
Oooh, that's interesting. Their wildcard powers 'leveling up' as they learn the power of friendship.
I'd always imagined that Crawling Chaos granted Akechi's Persona, but Yaldabaoth could've granted Loki, but I don't know if Nyralethotep guides Akechi like Philemon does for the protagonist.
I Had a Thought Before thinking Akechi Was A Wild Card, because (Haven’t seen the vid yet) In the thieves den, i think there’s a quote wiht akechi and mona talking about robin hood where goro says “only kidding” in response about a joke if he can wield multiple persona. My Thought was: His Persona Was Always robin hood, But he never revealed it Had the Power to Turn Beings Psychotic. The reason we Could see Loki in the Shido Palace Fight, is because It was Soon to evolve to loki, proven because we only see a Shadow Of it. After Loki Is Revealed, Akechi Turned Psychotic and Evolved robin hood to loki. This is also why we see robin hood and loki make Hereward, not loki and another. WildCards need Immense Strength to evolve their personas to second evolution. EX: the Masses Rebellious will against Yaldabaoth, Or The Will to fight for the truth Among the investigation team in p4. Thats just my thought tho.
I know this video is years old
But i found a magazine called Persona 5 Maniacus with comments from developer
In the magazine it's stated that Akechi has the same power of the protagonist. He is another choosen one
I think akechi’s twin persona fit more with something we see from P4. Akechi both tamed and fused with his shadow. Robin Hood is his persona while Loki is his shadow. First manifesting subconsciously as resentment for a father he never knew, and then a conscious desire for revenge for a father he KNEW abandoned him. Robin Hood then would be a persona in its true sense, a mask. He actually mentions as much in Royal when he rejoins and he’s in his dark form with Loki.
You have a lot of talent, this video was extremely comprehensive and I think you have a lot of potential! ^-^ I'll be following this channel as you continue to grow.
Also, no one tell Goro he isn't really a wildcard. His ego is bruised enough lol.
Thank you! (Also, you're right -- Goro would not take well to this video)
So, from my prespective, Akechi is like a “false wild card” cause both Loki and Robin Hood are both Justice arcana instead of The Fool arcana. Loki is a god of mischief, so it made sense that he can fake his appearance and persona.
Considering he only became the detective prince because he was "solving cases" he in fact was the true culprit or manipulating in, could he have "relinquished the fool" or his development switched from the fool to justice? I don't see how Yaldy would have given the power to both Goro and Ren and not have them both wildcards? Unless that was why Goro got his years before Ren.
I may be misremembering, but in q2 didnt one of the velvet attendants say they detected another wildcard in the p5 cast
They said in the “area” and imo I think they’re talking about femc cause she’s in the first dungeon
@@RaspyCh no it was the twins at the end of the game
Good Theory, even if I disagree. I think Goro is a Wildcard who never got taught about the scope of his powers. I mean, think about it; Makoto, Yu and Ren all had to be told that they had the power of Wildcard, and that friendships/respectful bonds were the way to power them up. Goro never got that education, thus his power might have been either severely underutilized, or mutated into the form he has now.
Also, persona users in the first two games all had the power of the wildcard, were not blank slates, and could even equip other arcanas.
Like I said, good theory, I just have my own as well~
If you play PQ2, Caroline and Justine both acknowledge that there feels like there’s another Wild Card user in the area at the beginning of the game, and the only party there currently is Akira, Akechi, Futaba, Ann, Ryuji and Yusuke. The P3 and P4 characters aren’t around yet
Imo I think they were talking about FeMC cause you meet her literally in the first dungeon. She is rather close to them
Goro probably rejected or was never offered the Wild Card contract, tho we do know he has the power of one. Even then, the protagonists from p1-2ep had the ability to fuse personas in-spite of not being Wild Cards, and their arcana's were Emperor, Sun, and Moon respectively. So I figure that if nothing else, he's more similar to the non Fool main characters from the previous games- he just had 2 personas to start with
It’s still kinda odd how in P5R the game kinda goes out of its way to articulate how Akechi and Joker have “the same power”, yet the power being spoken of is not shared by any other Persona user.
Like in the Third Semester, Yoshizawa is confused about Akechi’s connection to Personas and the Metaverse, and rather than simply saying he has a persona, he says: “Would it make it easier for you to understand if I told you I have the same power as his[Joker]?”
Imo Akechi seems more like a semi-failed attempt by Yaldabaoth to create a wild card user.
i was playing p5r and i dont remember when but i think it was between kaneshiro and madarame palace, didnt igor said that there was another user with the same power as joker? ..
I believe there is a section where 'Igor' says something about there being another person like Joker, but I don't remember the exact wording. However, it's important to keep on mind that 'Igor' can't exactly be trusted
two different personas = wildcard.
No Loki outfit came first then Robin Hood because he created that to fool the phantom thieves
This does make a lot of sense. But if I remember correctly, he is said to be the wild card anyway
That was actually interesting. Never knew that in the earlier games your teammates can switch around Persona’s. That’s pretty neat.
Loki is a trickster God that specializes in shape shifting, so it's my theory that Loki shape shifts into Robin Hood, as for Akechi's clothes, perhaps that's part of the shape shifting power, and if you put Loki in the thieves den, you can listen in on a conversation with Yusuke and Akechi, and Akechi jokes about being able to use any amount of personas, but then quickly says he's just kidding. Also if you Interact with the Robin Hood statue it's called a master of disguise, so I think my shape shifting theory is very possible.
I feel like having both loki and robin hood could be like how death (not thanatos) ripped himself out of orpheus in persona 3, as far as we know this wasn't a wild card ability and maybe akechi had something similar but simply gained control of loki to use as his persona alongside robin hood.
4:52
Maruki did not formulate his own Palace through his actualization ability. His Palace, like every other Palace in the game, was formed because his desire to help people became extremely distorted. He had his actualization ability already, sure, but he had no knowledge of the Metaverse or Mementos at all before that; simply his research on changing cognition.
I also argue that Loki was actually Akechi's first Persona rather than Robin Hood, for two reasons;
1. Each of Akechi's Personas are also bound to a specific costume/mask. Black Mask Akechi is bound to Loki, representing his inner rage and lust for revenge against Shido, while Prince Akechi is bound to Robin Hood, representing the masquerade of the kind Detective Prince he wears in public.
2. Call of Chaos (how he turns Shadows psychotic) was an ability given to him by Yaldabaoth, and is a move that he uses on himself and other shadows through use of Loki, NOT Robin Hood, during his bossfight in Shido's Palace. If it's used through Loki and he was able to use it as soon as he met Shido, then logically Loki had to be his first Persona.
So my personal theory is that the reason Akechi has two Personas is because he is in fact a Wildcard, but not necessarily in the same way that Akiren is. He has the capacity to bear multiple personalities like the Protag, but unlike Joker, he strictly keeps those two personalities from mixing. This is why Joker keeps his Thief outfit/mask the same shape; His multiple Personas are all technically a part of him, but he manages to make all of them a cohesive whole in a healthy manner. Akechi's two sides, by contrast, are so different from each other they're practically different people, and to represent the new "Nice guy" side, the Prince Akechi costume and Robin Hood were formed.
We have news from the devs now that akechi awake to both personas at the same time
Are you sure that butterfly in p5 is not just lavenza?
The blue butterfly has always been Philemon so it wouldn't make sense from a writing stance to switch the identity. Yes we hear Lavenza speak when we see it but that still makes sense for the butterfly being Philemon -- as an attendant, she (and the rest of the attendants/Igor) work for Philemon. When Philemon revealed himself to Joker to grant him the powers of the wildcard, it would make sense that the rift between the two worlds would be connected and, thus, Lavenza could call for help.
@@tirmel I can only think of one time this happened, it might've happened more, but we've seen the blue butterfly literally turn into Lavenza during the third semester in the councilors office
I think he has two different personas and outfits, because he considers the detective prince and his actual self to be two separate people. He starts with loki, then as he works for shido and starts gaining popularity with his act as the detective prince. As the detective prince, he feels like a completely different person, the praise combined with some childhood memories creates Robin hood.
Didnt Morgana said that a Persona-User can't have a palace?
Honestly, I don't remember. But just because they don't have a palace, it doesn't mean they're safe from a distorted worldview which would lead to a shadow (and, in what I believe to be Goro's case, a shadow-persona like Loki).
I think Maruki was an exception since he formed a palace before fully awakening to a persona which was already unique on top of becoming the administrator of Mementos. His own palace was the core of the metaverse as he had his own palace rather than being directly linked to Mementos.
Hey dope video, this felt hella researched and well thought out! Keep it up!
Thank you!
I like to think that Goro IS a wild card, but he just doesn't use it the same as Ren does. He sees no benefit to using any other personas than the ones he has now, so that explains why he only has Robin Hood and Loki. Plus, i think the whole "lack of bonds" thing is explained by the inability to access the Velvet Room. I think when a Guest arrives, their bonds with others are turned into power, thus, able to become social links. Goro doesn't have that, so he lacks the ability to turn bonds into power. He's a wild card, i have no doubt about that, he's just no the same as Ren, Yu, or Makoto who use multiple personas and form bonds nor does he see a benefit to it. That could explain why him and Ren being in a party together doesn't cause instability like it does in Q and Q2.....
I believe that akechi has a bond with shido but it's not positive but negative kind of like yu and adachi true that it's not all negative but it's does turn that at the end of persona 4
I don't know what you're talking about. There is no social link with Adachi, there is no meeting him at Junes, there is no accomplice ending. Nope, not at all. :P
@@tirmel adachi is the devil arcana in persona 4 golden and if you max out the link you get the accomplice ending
@@elizjahjennings9004 no,adachi is Jester/Hunger in P4G,just wanted to clear that up
@@Fkin176 your.right thanks but my orignally point still stands
Man this makes a lot more sense than my theory that he's bi-polar.
not really persona can be see at personality so the wild card mean that hey have many personality but then what if somewon fake thier personality and that there is a big question akechi is a good place to start edgy akechi is how he really is and church akechi is his fake personality but does that mean joker have no fealling when hanging out with his team ???? idk
While a Persona in real life refers to the different personalities that a person uses, it's been established in the Persona Series that a Persona is a representation of the true self (In P5's case, it's their will of rebellion)
@@tirmel maybe akechi is like haru they know that there are persona but they havent unllock thier full power can that happen
So glad to see vids like this. Too often is statements like “he might have the same power of joker” is taken at fact, when Akechi’s personas are birthed from broken aspects of his personality. His contorted sense of justice and his malice to destroy the society that burdened and ruined him.
Holy crap that outro blew my ears off jfc
I'm so sorry this was one if my first videos so I guess I hadn't gotten the sound mixing right!
Thank you for letting me know. I've trimmed the video to remove the ending so it won't happen again!
My theory (It’s basically a head cannon but still) Goro is like 1/4th wild card. This sounds kinda wack but let me explain. He does have some form of the wild card. I believe every persona user can use some weird form of the wild card. It’s like a wild card but only allows you have 2 personas that matches your personal arcana. Your true persona that matches your personality in Goro’s case I believe it is Loki. Then you have a second a persona that matches the false personality of someone. Like how Goro made up his detective prince personality. Theoretically this is possible for every persona user ever. It just happens that most persona user are able to stay true to them selves.
Oooh, that's a cool idea. And it makes sense if Goro has the 'potential' to be a wild card but never met Igor to sign the contract!
Nah, Goro is not a wild card. He just worked so hard creating another personality that seemed so real he naturally developed Robin Hood.
I think akechi is not a wild card and it’s just one of those awakenings all the side cast get like ryuji with seiten tensei, just more story driven, seeing as after unlocking loki you can get his third awakening like the other party members
Never knew people didn’t call him his canon name till recently
I’m going to criticize your video even though I liked it and I definitely agree on the idea Akechi isn’t a wild card. And I believe his two personas are more like two different version of him than two different persona he can switch.
Your idea of Akechi being changed from a more Robin Hood version to a more Loki, which is indeed a pretty interesting,version due to his link contradicts 2 facts.
So there is no actual base to say so. My opinion is that Robin Hood is just a facade and that his true self is Loki ever since he can remember. (Which is the most simple explanation and so due to the Razor of Occam is the most likely correct one)
Let’s see my 2 criticisms :
1) You assume that akechi truly means what he said about his justice and wanting to be a hero
But you seemed to forget he is making all that stuff up. All of the dialogues where he talks about his justice are a mere facade since he clarify after he tries to kill Joker he doesn’t actually believe in any justice and he only cares about himself and his goal to get his revenge.
So there is no authentic hero Akechi in the story we see, it’s just a very well made facade.
2) Let’s assume Akechi was a pure justice pursuer when he was a little kid. That is a bit sad considering how he turned out to be.
However we cannot say that for sure since Akechi when he talks about his past is also often lying about it.
Even if that was the case we cannot say he preserved that pure side of him until the moment he decided to help Shido.
I would say it’s right to say he lost that side forever and his true self became like Loki either when he lost his mother or when he started to live in misery.
Besides the Akechi who decided to side with Shido had for sure already Loki as his true self. That is because he wasn’t forced or manipulated by Shido to do the crimes he did. (This nonsense is what it seems several Akechi fans believe)
He already had his plan of revenge so he decided by his own free will to do that horrible things, he was for sure Loki Akechi back then, before even doing his first crime (The culprit from P4 for instance was distorted before doing bad things as well).
That’s why I say it doesn’t matter if there was a time long ago when he was righteous since he was distorted for so long before even having receiving his persona.
That's a really interesting idea! I always enjoy seeing how other people interpret things!
(Also, while I usually enjoy debating how media can be interpreted, I'm afraid I will have to refrain this time as I can already see where the difference in our point of view comes from -- I am very much the type of person who chooses to believe in the fundamental good in people and your argument hinges on the opposite [whether that is how you see the world or not]. And I know I can get a little touchy sometimes about my value system/belief in people so it wouldn't end up being a fun little debate. I hope you understand.)
@@tirmel as long as you understand and accepts the limits of your interpretation (which as I understood search for the good sides in people) I think it’s completely fine you do it.
Plus I think it is a good thing (which I try as hard as I can to do) understanding the good person in a person everyone hate. I mean in real life
In fact I don’t think anyone deserves hate (except extreme cases we cannot afford to have not isolated because there is so little we can do to rehabilitate them) and I’m actually studying psychology to help people.
That being said when I watch a work of fiction I criticize characters basing on what it is clearly told. I want to be able to judge their actions by what I think is right, so morality and ethic can be developed by facing the problems we see in fiction.
That’s why I cannot stress enough how Akechi’s fans seems to forget how much bad he did.
I think being respectful and caring about people also means pursuing what is just.
I won’t say Akechi isn’t as bad as the other antagonists of persona 5. (So many even treats him as a part of the Phantom thieves group as valid as Yusuke, for instance, because “it’s more or less the same, they both did bad things to the group and then they both joined and worked together”)
I would not be respectful to say so because acting like Akechi means make some many people suffer and even kill.
I even saw how much Futaba suffered, for instance, because Akechi didn’t aim for Shido directly but chose to help him by killing Wakaba in that way so he could earn his trust.
Or even how he mercilessly and coldly tried his best to kill the one who many say is his best friend. (I often invite people to watch that cutscene focusing only on how Akechi acts and therefore how his emotions are cold)
That being said I really enjoy talking to you and I hope you understand my reasons and the objective facts I brought more than my point of view and my subjective ideas because I think the first two are more important.
@@edwardsuou well you have to remember goro was an orphan at the time when he approached shido and he didn’t have anywhere to go because Japan likes to treat orphans and bastard children like second class citizens because they care about social status plus if you thought akechi killing shido would have solved everything then you missed the point of that if akechi had killed shido he would have died as a savior to the public and it wouldn’t have mattered anyways because yaldaboath would have won by the time. Do you seriously think that akechi could have walked out from a country wide conspiracy it was either fallow shidos orders or he would get killed he honestly didn’t get a choice in the matter.
@@lukefarag10 of course he could’ve taken down Shido and getting out with it, Okumura clearly specified no one knew how and who did the kills they just had to ask (to Shido)
That makes sense considering Akechi works alone and he doesn’t need to be involved with other criminals affairs Shido does (apparently he didn’t even commit any murder in real life besides the Joker one for obvious reasons)
All he had to do was to take down Shido and it would’ve been exactly the same scenario as Light in death note stopping the kill (no one can track him down then). Akechi was convinced to go to the very end so he could fulfill his selfish desire but he also stated he could’ve entered Shido’s palace anytime meaning he had his life in his hands.
The thing you say about Yaoldabaoth is just baseless, nothing to back it up. Shido becoming a martyr (as if Shido could ever be popular without Akechi) has nothing to do with Yaoldabaoth winning that was basically a game between destruction and construction meaning the conditions of that fight are around Joker fighting Akechi and have the winner punished so he could’ve toyed with them more. That’s what he actually does, however if you take what he says as true the matter is whether society goes in one direction or the other. Anyway Akechi was always free to do the hell he wanted as Joker was free to fail at any time.
@@edwardsuou but even if he did someone would have taken shidos place from the conspiracy and corruption in society would still remain look I’m not excusing what akechi did but to be honest I don’t blame him for being pissed at society and everyone in it for what happened to his mother and how society did not care about him in the first place.
So the answer is yes but actually no
I don't think having two Personas makes him a wildcard, because his Personas are unique to him. Hell, maybe Loki has the ability to mask himself as Robin Hood (Since Akechi disguised himself as our ally too)
Bruh Loki is clearly his Ultimate Persona. God of trickery much?
I thought it'd be hereward
I may have been a dumbass but I thought that Loki changed his form to Robin Hood as he is the trickster god
That's a cool way of looking at it too! (At the end of the day, none of the things I ramble about on this channel are things I'm trying to sell as absolute fact - stories all have multiple ways of being interpreted and I just like presenting my own thoughts and hearing other people's)
No, it’s said in there descriptions they are each one of two personas of Goro.
I honestly think he isn’t one. People say that Robin Hood and Loki are two separate personas he uses but then why in the 3rd semester he gets his 3rd “awakening” just like every other party member. It’s also called an awakening like everyone else.
Or
Maybe he is one but I think it’s just that Akechi just doesn’t have good writing. Yea he’s an interesting character but it doesn’t mean he’s a good character (imo) I think Atlus just fucked up his character and made too many questions for Akechi and just say “we leave it up to the fans” sorry i just hate when games leaves too many questions open without some definitive proof/answer
No, Akechi doesn't have the Wild Card, he has basic Tier 1-3 Personas
Akechi doesn’t fall under the tier 1-3 personas like the other thieves do
For all the other thieves their main persona transforms into the second tier and they can’t use the first form
With Akechi, Loki and Robin Hood are separate from eachother and he has access to both of them. During the prince phase of his fight first he summons Loki and then he uses Robin Hood for the rest of the fight
There is no tier 1/2 persona for him, only the third tier