What is the Afterlife in Tolkien's Works? Middle-earth Explained
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- Each kindred in Middle-earth has a different destiny in the afterlife. What comes after life is a driving force of character motivations throughout Tolkien’s works, and is important in the conversation of humanity, life and time as presented in the legendarium. Thank you all so much for watching, let me know your thoughts about the afterlife in Tolkien’s works in the comments below! As always, a great thanks to the online artists whose visual works made this video possible! If you are one of the artists, please let me know and I will post your name and a link to your work in this description!
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PIPPIN: I didn't think it would end this way.
GANDALF: End? No, the journey doesn't end here. Death is just another path, one that we all must take. The grey rain-curtain of this world rolls back, and all turns to silver glass, and then you see it.
PIPPIN: What? Gandalf? See what?
GANDALF: White shores, and beyond, a far green country under a swift sunrise.
PIPPIN: Well, that isn't so bad.
GANDALF: No. No, it isn't.
he was describing the shores of Aman
Paradiso
I would like to see it a little more abstract, in the context of Tolkien's own Works.
who lives a thousand lives, in new fantasy stories with Men of the West
as part of the weave.
I do think in the context of the movie it's an awesome scene, but nevertheless it always bugged me. Gandalf says "we all must die"? Bitch, no you don't. Whatever happened exactly to Gandalf the Grey may be called "dying" (since I believe he returned even to outside of Arda, being sent back by Iluvatar himself), but he doesn't experience death like men and we are explicitly told, that even the Valar do not know where the spirits of men go after death.
Me: what was did you think it would end?😂
I hope when Galadriel got back to to the West she was able to talk to Feanor, and told him how a humble Dwarf earned the gift of three strands of her hair
But feanor died....
@@hannah.lindseyy He's curled up in fetal position in the Halls of Mandos.
He actually is crying like a big fat baby right now. He got hooked on parliment cigarettes as well
He is in the halls of Mandos until the end of the World.
You know he never talked to Gimli when him and Legolas showed up in the west
So Tolkien takes great pains to point out that Elves and even the Valar will eventually grow weary of the immortality of their continuing existence and become jealous of the Gift of Men. For gift it originally was. This was why Melkor left Angband as soon as he heard of the awakening of Men. His greatest victory, incomplete though it was, was tainting the gift so that men have ever feared death and have clung to life instead of willingly departing when the time came. Remember when the Edain first arrived in Numenor, the kings died by choice, not by the physical end of life. Aragorn was the last to die in that way, willingly departing. This was why he counseled Arwen not to fail the last test and cling to life until the bitter end.
awesome comment.
aragon is the greatest hero of anything ever
Quite insightful, Master Vagner
Love your comment bro, though I don't think dying by choice is what you think it is. They still die from old age as do all mortal beings. It's just that Men who do not fear death accept it were as other Men tried anything they could to cling to life.
Read Unfinished Tales. It talks about the Kings willingly giving up life before dotage. Yes, they were still old, but they had the choice to either go, or stay and drop into dotage.
This channel has been the jewel of UA-cam
It is a place of light, beauty and music, and so shall be once again
Let the armies of the mundane know this: never again will this channel fall into dispair
This channel of the West has been viewed FOR GONDOR!
FOR GONDOR!
This comment nearly brought tears to my eyes haha. Thank you so much for the support!
@@MenoftheWest continue to bring to us the amazing world of Tolkien
You're friends are with Men of the West
@@MenoftheWest Ha. I actually had the same reaction.
You're the Aragon of UA-cam.! Keep up the good work.
FOR GONDOR!!
Quick question, are you (yoystan) the only one who works on these videos, or is there a small team? Either way, your videos are enjoyable.
@James Trudel Creed?
Hey everyone, here are timestamps for the different kindreds and their afterlives! Enjoy!
I. Intro: 0:00- 0:56
II. Ainur (Valar and Maiar): 0:56- 2:27
III. Elves: 2:27- 3:59
IV. Men/Hobbits: 3:59- 6:21
V. Half-elves: 6:21- 7:18
VI. Dwarves: 7:18- 7:50
VII. Miscellaneous Free-Peoples: 7:50- 8:33
VIII. Miscellaneous Villains: 8:33- 10:02
IX. Outro: 10:02- 11:17
Can you do an Epic character Bio of Sauron to go with Melkors. The giver of gifts has a much longer history after all. Also these vids are an absolute JOY on the eyes.
Men of the West can you please do a video on High Fells of Rhudaur
What if the dragons gotten souls?
if heaven is half as beautiful as the art in this video I would be totally satisfied!
Everything you know about this, Is it all from the book silmarillion, you are so good l love to listen at you
I know I'm late but here's my thoughts: JRRT was a Catholic, and a devout one at that. In Christianity, it's believed that once the saved die, they depart from the whole Universe and live with the Living God in His abode, in supreme bliss and love for all timeless eternity. I truly believe that's what he meant to happen to Men. Why no one knew what happened to Men after the died? Well that's cuz everyone on Arda, except Men, were bound to Arda. They only knew what was going on and what would happen to Arda because they were, imo, woven into the very existence of Arda/Ëa. Outside their knowing of Creation, they were clueless to know what happened. I agree with you, Men pass beyond the bounds of Ëa, and into Eru's presence. And that's what makes them so special. They et to rejoin Eru and (thru Christan theology) be at One with him.
Let's not overglorify men here eh? All children of Eluvutar will sing the second creation song.
@@berilsevvalbekret772 Of course, but he has a point. Men have the most special fates when it came to the LOTR universe and are favored in a special, unique way compared to other beings.
That's probably what the doors of light are,the Gateway to Paradise for men.
Never thought I'd say this but you're wrong for once, Morgoth was cast out yes but he was still bound to Arda regardless as is all Valar and they can only die once Arda is destroyed because they have placed part of themselves into Arda just as Sauron did with his ring. In Dagor Dagorath Arda will be destroyed and that will be the only time the Valar and more importantly Melkor can be killed. Eru will then sing a new theme and create a better world
Greatly enjoy your videos btw
You mean Eru's children along with the Valar and Maiar will cease to exist?
@@lmatt88 Eru's children will join in the song of the music for the new world :)
@@lmatt88 It’s just a beautiful song, meant to reflect the truth. Nothing more.
Listing to this while waiting for the Blood moon.
Thank you for these videos.
Yes! Please talk about Tolkien’s thematic use of death. I would love that. Great video!
I vote yes for the Build a World video that you suggested. I am grateful you put out content to this day on the dearest fantasy mythos to me.
I remember my curiosity was piqued when first reading The Silmarillion and finding that Men were special in a mysterious way. Although they lacked the lifespan and perhaps certain abilities the elves had, they were to have a great role to play in Illuvatar's music.
We eagles are all Maiar, we simply go back to Eru when our flesh-mechs break down.
Hahaha flesh mechs... awesome. Say hi and thanks to Gwaihir from me
I don't imagine that creature's that served Melkor out of torment like the orcs should be resigned to join Melkor beyond the doors of night!
I am most saddened by Arwen dying soon after Aragorn. She had such pure love for him.
Yeah but because she chose to be judged as human presumably her and aragorn were reunited wherever it is that humans go when they die
"Please let me know of any corrections in the comments below."
I think that's the first time I've ever seen someone actually INVITE nerds to "Well, actually . . ."
Knowing that there is an afterlife in lord of the rings actually makes me feel comfort when reading and watching
When it comes to the evil servants, I guess my hope is that their spirits are indeed purified. Their lives were evil because of the suffering of darkness upon them and that is why I hope they can potentially find peace in death, away from Morgoth and his vile.
Well in The Simarillion, Eru Illuvitar said, or at least inferred, that their discord in the music was all part of the greater plan.
@Mobley House Video the debate of free will versus determinism is older than western philosophy. We could literally debate for hours and change no one's mind.
@Mobley House Video I choose to simply "live with the paradox." Our choices are both free and at the same time predetermined. These two ideas seem contradictory but are actually compatible (at least in the mind of an all knowing God).
@@scottleary8468 what about saurmen he never even encountered the ring and he choose to become evil
@@ahmedst5735 l think one must understand what the Ring of Power symbolizes in Tolkien's works. It is symbolic of a specific type of evil and a specific type of temptation to evil. Evil existed in the world of Middle Earth long before the creation of the Ring of Power. There are several "falls" in Tolkien's world before the existence of the Ring of Power. The first "fall" was that of Melkor which happened long before the creation of the Ring of Power. Evil and temptation existed before the creation of the Ring of Power and also after it's destruction.
First
Edit: I noticed you liked my comment so this is my chance to say thank you for all you do since it seems as though LOTR content creators are rare these days and I think that really shows your love for the series since you still haven’t given up on it. You give me hope that future generations will come to love this book series just as much as people like us do.
Hey Nate, thank you so much for the support, my friend! I have loved Tolkien's works throughout my entire life, and I am so glad to be able to do what I do and to have fans like you to support me! Thank you again!
While Gandalf is describing the shores of Valinor it's still a great scene. Gandalf is there to inspire hope for the race of men in their fight against Sauron. He knows this war will cost many lives and is trying to ease Pippin's uncertainty. He is only a Maiar and knows only the confines of his true home origin which is Aman. Mortal men and hobbits go elsewhere and don't know those details for Eru Illuvatar has kept that information from the Valar. If anything where mortal men go after death is probably even better than the undying lands. Iluvatar knew men would be weary of their mortality and even the elves are unable to grasp the concept of dying from old age. If the men of Numenore had more faith in Eru and accepted that life on earth would be short but the rewards in the afterlife would be far better things might have turned out differently.
As for suggestions for future videos: Perhaps you could make one about the 3 hidden elven realms of Doriath, Gondolin and Nargothrond? Compare them and maybe offer an insight into the motif of a "hiddlen realm" itself, seeing that it appears many times in the legendarium.
I always found it curious that Nargothrond was doomed because the Elven king listened to a human advisor when he suggested open war on Morgoth. Yet Gondolin was doomed precisely because Elven king declined to listen to a human advisor when the latter suggested open war on Morgoth.
The fates of Gondolin and Nargothrond are in this way both mirror images and polar opposites. I always found that curious and never really clear why this is so.
Elves did die in the West. Just ask Finwe. Or Feanor's mom.
Indeed, but one was murdered and the other died in childbirth (due to Fëanor’s fiery spirit) unfortunately :(
No Elves died of natural causes (I believe) in the Undying Lands.
Or the First kinslaying...
great vid id still like a video about foods and weeds of middle earth for next vid thumbs if you agree
the40yogamer It won’t be next week’s video, but I’ll put it on the shortlist, my friend!
Definitely, what was old Toby or was it old tovie, what was in Gandalfs pipe ?? I don't know if Tolkien ever explained this how ever it would be cool if you could gives us your thoughts .
Rob .P Haha indeed that would be a very fun video to make! In the first prologue parts of the Fellowship of the Ring, Tolkien talks about Old Toby, but I’ll have to delve into it in a video!
*weed. You know Bilbo and Gandalf gettin zonked
Hey Yoystan, I'm glad you brought up topic about the afterlife of Tolkien's works. I find that topic very curious for both the movies and the books of LOTR. For over 7 months, in the first epilogue video that you did about what happened to the fellowship after the events of LOTR, I thought to myself about whether or not valinor is actually a place in the afterlife. But when I read in the book called the simarillion, I found out that the valars has simply found and form this place for the sake of living live in peace. So wouldn't valinor have any similarities to heaven at this point?
Good evening Yoystan, another great video. I must say that I am never disappointed when you stray into topics like these. Tolkien's perception of death, or at least the way that he wrote death in Middle Earth has always bee what attracted me most to his writing as an adult. Exploring the rather complex themes of his mythos is something that has consumed quite a few waking hours, bowls of tobacco, and glasses of spirit on cold winter nights. A potential theory video I should like to see in the future is what happened to Frodo Baggins in Aman.
Your video tonight, however, broached a subject I'd never really thought of before: what happens to Sauron's servants following their demise? I'm inclined to think that the Balrogs would be banished beyond the Wall of Night for eternity, and that the dragons, as you have suggested, had no fea to begin with and therefore had nothing awaiting them in the hereafter. Trolls I think also fall into the same category as dragons. However, it is canon that the original orcs were at first elves who had been corruption beyond all recognition, even their own. I am more inclined to think that death, however it came, would purify these older orcs and make them like their old elf-selves again, absolving them of their ill-deeds and returning them to the Halls of Mandos. Later generations of orc might not be so lucky. The first orcs probably died long before the events of the War of the Ring.
I believe that later orcs, like dragons, were mere machines of Sauron's will and are therefore lacking in fea and upon their death nothing happens. They can't really be anything else, because it is established in canon that Sauron cannot create life, but only create the palest mockery of it, which is what orcs are fundamentally. If he created orcs by pouring his own essence into them, then it's possible that they may join Sauron and Melkor beyond the Walls of Night for eternity, or until Dagor Dagorath, at which point they will be finally destroyed by the Valar et al before the Second Music.
Great video, and thanks so much for the work that you do. Farewell until next Sunday!
That reminds me of how, in the Elder Scrolls universe, Falmer (which are corrupted snow elves) don't own a sentient (black) soul anymore, but are more similar to animals in their spirit. The same logic may apply to orcs in the Middle Earth
I always did wonder what happened to the "evil" men-easterlings, Haradrim, variags, dunlendings, etc...
Darth Invictus probably he’ll even if they were good. I think if middle earth was more fair a lot of elves and western men would also go to hell for having power to change things but doing nothing
According to what I have read, men used to think they were immortal before they fell by a deceit of Melkor, sort of like the Garden of Eden story.
That is interesting! I'll have to look into that!
@@MenoftheWest Yes. Originally Men knew death was a gift. Melkor made them fear it.
christian miranda Yes indeed! I actually think I remember seeing that now when I was doing research for this video. But later in the timespan of Men, they came to fear it. And if that is due to Melkor, that makes sense.
@@MenoftheWest I read somewhere that originally all men were supposed to be like the Numenoreans. but Melkor corrupted them. since the edain were faithful iluvatar restored them to their original state.
Also all of middle earth was like Aman. Originally the valar were gonna live in Middle earth. But Melkor corrupted the land itself. only a small piece of middle earth wasn't corrupted. so the valar took this piece of land and separated it from middle earth so it would be saved. they called this land Aman.
Basically originally Middle-earth was going to be a paradise......
In one of the history of middle earth books, it is a discussion between a leading woman and Finrod on the beliefs of death
No matter what part of life I'm consumed by, whether it be good or devoid of humanity, lotr lore carries me through.
“It is important to live in the now, while we have time and strength left to do good in the world”. Very true my friend. Great video.
The choice of the half-elven has always intrigued me, I would love to see a theory/explanation video on this one day as I have always wondered about the actual mechanics of how this 'choice' was put into practice. I came up with the theory that when a half-elven consummate's a relationship and creates life, the race of their partner determines which kind of life force they have, ie elven or human. Not sure if I am explaining this right, its a complicated topic I think.
Just like sisters and brothers may not have the same exact DNA...it is a choice on some level what our spirit wants to inherit.
Always been one of the topics I wish I knew more about. Thanks much!
I always thought the eagles were maiar. Like Ungoliant.
Ungoliant wasn't a Maiar, she was a demon of the Outer Dark.
We don’t know what Ungoliant is
I looked it up on reddit and other places. I didnt know that there were other beings other than the valar and maiar. I don't think she was bad before she met melkor though. He corrupted her into his service. Whether that means he made her bad or just aligned her with himself. I guess the same may be for tom bombadil. I thought he was maiar but I think he was a different type of being. Am I right that the ainur are tied to arda but the other beings aren't?
Ungoliant is spirit of the void
We don't know, canonically, what Ungoliant is.
In the published Silmarillion it's a being that came from the void, maybe representing the void itself. But in other texts it's not that clear. It might be a maia. But still, not canon.
The eagles are somehow linked to the Valar Manwë though. Not sure exactly how.
This is the depth of Tolkien's world that sets him apart from other Fantasy novelists who have followed. It's not just about world building and grand parallels to ancient human history but also a spiritual reworking and cosmology inspired by it. I know most don't like to argue about GRRM vs JRRT but when you breakdown GRRM's cosmology from his works they just look like a collection of tropes and mythologies, whereas Tolkien took inspiration from ancient European mythology and Christianity to create Illuvatar and the Vala
Yoystan made a very well thought out video, though I’d like to conclude and perhaps correct some of the point he made:
The Ainur are ëalar, which means that they do not require a body to be complete. When they descended into Arda, they remain bound to the World until its end, even the evil ones. Melkor may be thrown out the Doors of Night, a major part of his essence is imbued into the world, effectively making it “Morgoth’s Ring”. (Dagor Dagorath is considered to be an abandoned concept before LotR rolled out, and was considered to be the predecessor of the War of Wrath).
“Valar ar Maiar fantaner nassentar fanainen ve quenderinwe coar ar larmar,” The Ainur can take physical forms called fana, yet they can be weakened, which may affect their ability to take shapes, influence the world, or even affect the world at all. Melkor is a prime example: he started as the strongest Valar, able to defeat all the other Valar up until Tulkas arrived. Yet he slowly imbued his power into the world, weakening him. He was able to take a fair form in Valinor, yet when he was burnt by the Silmarils, he lost that ability. He was weakened so much that he lost the duel with Fingolfin.
Gandalf is a whole different case and people are still debating whether Eru brought him back or the Valar brought him back.
Elves are immortal and die only when mortally wounded or due to a broken heart. Their hröar were designed to last with their fëar, but because of the tainting of the world, their bodies cannot last for a long time (the elven definition). Their fëar eventually consumes their body and they become like wraiths. The only way to counteract this is to go to Valinor.
Elves can choose to go to the Halls of Mandos to be judged and/or be reincarnated into a new body. They can also choose to remain in Middle Earth and never be reincarnated, but their fëar are considered to be tainted by evil.
The fate of men is unknown to even the Valar. They are considered as visitors of Arda, which their fëar are gathered in the Halls of Mandos, and departed from the world. Those who were cursed to stay in Arda by oath-breaking or have their gift withheld from Eru himself are doomed to roam the world forever, like the oathbreakers.
Dwarves believe that when they die, their fëar are also gathered into the Halls of Mandos, albeit separated from the other kindreds.
Of the fate of the ents few do know.
Animals like Huan or the Giant Eagles maybe more intelligent than the average animal, they are considered to not have a fëar.
Corrupted beasts like dragons, vampires, and possibly orcs (the fate of orcs are highly complicated) are considered corruptions of the kelvar and olvar of Arda, and thus have no fëar.
I always thought of the men afterlife as going to another planet to live another life without the gods that's how it sounded like in the silmarillion to me
It's like a syncretism of Christian and Nordic. Is that bad? (Some of) my fellow Evangelicals excoriate JRRT for that portion of
his content that originates from Germanic/Welsh myth, and for his readers who embrace wiccan instead of Christian spirituality.
I find it fascinating. Roman Catholics...at least those of a literary bent...tend to be more nuanced in their POV's than the Evangelicals.
I don't like your theory that Dragon's are souless machines, they have a will of their own, and most importantly all Melkor's creations were twisted mockeries of already existing beings.
So there were giant lizards living in the northern parts of Arda wich I believe were twisted and made grow and breathe fire, so Dragon's soul would have the same fate as any other animal soul.
Same for Wargs, giant spiders, Felbeasts, and other animals wich had malice in them.
I never liked eternal punishments for deeds of evil. Yes, some creatures have sinned, but only out of blindness, lack of wisdom and simply foolishness. And beings should be given a chance to learn from their mistakes, that this is not the wae. A million years? Two? Sure. But never the eternity.
Aaaah I've been waiting for this, always wanted to know what happened after Frodo and Gandalf left 😢
Oh haha I actually don't really talk much about them specifically. Here is a video about the Fellowship of the Ring and their character epilogues where you may find that info: ua-cam.com/video/A9wMO_s88QE/v-deo.html
Hope that helps, my friend! Enjoy!
@@MenoftheWest Ooooh ok great, thanks for this, this video was great anyways!!
@@HUUSTISHIA Thank you, I really appreciate it!
Yep that sounds about right,. Eru give the gift of men, death. Yet he also rewards men with longer lives. Mixed signals.
Personally, I hope that the orcs who were once elves would be purified because the elves did not chose to become orcs, they were forced into it through torture.
Elves live forever in arda with the valar, and so they are the wisest in the world of the two children, they are ment to live in the undying lands and so they long for the sea when in middle earth. Men on the other hand, die, and go to eru. That is why men are restless in this world, they long for something beyond it, but since they lacks the wisdom of the elves they may not understand this, so they seek for the answer in arda, and it even led to the numenoreans desperate attempt to invade valinor in hopes to claim immortality thinking this was the answer. Men was at their peak in numenor spiritually, this is why eru granted them their original gift back, and no longer shortened their lifes as a reward for their good deeds in beleriand. They lived for about 350 years on average and could chose when to leave the world.
Can you start posting the sources for all of the artwork in the description? I always want to track them down.
There were other orders of spirits besides Valar and Maiar. Also, non-Timeless Hall spirits and creatures from Ëa could and did enter Arda at will, and they were None of the Above. They were, as it were, from Space. Arda was only one world in Ëa.
My speculation about Tom Bombadil is he was the first of the Ëa-an creatures to enter Arda before perhaps even the Valar came, or came in as the First Creature during construction. Odd things lived in Arda that were not from Eru's domain.
Your script writing is bloody superb.
Morgoth was and still bound, even if he was thrown out into the void. He cannot die until the world is unmade, for it is his anchor as The One Ring is Sauron’s
No one understands what eternity means because we are so focused on this world of shadow and illusion
Love your vidz.
Dropped a like here too.
I have to say that in Tolkien's works there are actually some pronounciation guides (in both LotR Appendices and in the Silmarillion version as assembled and published by Christopher Tolkien).
I notice you have a tendency to modify every elvish word in a very peculiar way. The appendices of LotR may prove informative.
Awesome, man! Thanks for posting!
Of course! Thanks for watching Ben!
Yes I would love a second video on Tolken's mysterious picture of death in LOTR !! Thank you for this channel !!! It is an amazing blessing !!!
I thought Tuor's fate was never told. He simply set sail west and wasnt heard from again. Is his fate now explained?
I had no idea Aragorn was a descendant of Elrose and the ancestral nephew to Elrond. Jus figured out the name of the long span living humans. Minamorians
I was litteraly wondering this a few weeks ago.
This channel doesn’t have nearly as many suscribers as it should.
Maybe it’s like this in real life too. Unfortunately no one is there to tell us the truth
Extremely interesting subject matter! I've always wondered wat happened to all those orcs and evil creatures once they were vanquished. Do they go to an afterlife? A middle earth version of hell? Or do they return to their natural genesis?
I guess the ultimate truths to these questions will remain with Tolkien himself
As it should b :)
I love ur videos keep it up!
I think a point you didn't touch on about the valor and Maier is it seems that the corrupted ones actually do perish.
Melkor couldn't be destroyed being second only to iluvator ( sorry first time trying to spell these names)
But spirits such as gandalf and sauron i feel can in fact be destroyed a thier spirit level if they become evil.
Unless I'm mistaken sauron was destroyed completely. Because he poured so much of his spirit into his evil works.
The ring.
The reason melkors physical being was damaged by the elf is because he had poured so much of himself into actually creating other evil beings( balrogs, dragons, orcs, etc). Its like in doing these evil works it not only takes away from their physical being but also thier spirit forms.
The one thing they want is power but in trying to gain it they slowly destroy themselves.
If saurons spirit endured after the destruction of the one ring, did he go back to the eternal halls?
Or was he left wandering middle earth unable to ever be strong enough to even influence? I feel like he was just completely destroyed. If he was not allowed in the eternal halls.. Because even if he was weakened so much spirit wise but wandered middle earth he'd still be powerful enough to influence evil works.
No youre wrong because if you think back to the first age when that was to be summoned and which the spirits haunted a ghost body lingering elf poison the great halls. The undying ama in the west as much as gandalf had an affair with aragorn and had king elesar the third cursed amd forsaken and took a blade to the neck by lord gibly the fourth age scumbag
The “ Circles of the World” is a complex concept. Melkor was banished through the door of night but that void is still counted as in the circles of the world. Eä, or all that is, is the physical part of the world. Only Men and possibly their mortal counterparts could truly l
leave the circles of the world and will have a fate that is only known to Eru.
Do you think Arnor and Gondor will be in Dagor Dagorath?
If the two kingdoms yet remained in the world by the end-times, their citizens would have indeed seen the end of the world. But I would imagine that those kingdoms would have had to last many ages. That is a great question!
@@MenoftheWest do you think the dunedain died out?
christian miranda I don’t think they would have. The Dúnedain were strong, and made stronger by their King Elessar. I think they would’ve survived on to the end of time!
@@MenoftheWest if that's true then they must have surpassed Numenor.
Well in Tolkien’s Legendarium they will not be there as the Dagor Dagorath is in the future. There is no Gondor or Arnor around so it is safe no say no.
thank you for explaining this , ive always needed more of an in depth explanation.
One thing: is it canonical that Hobbits are an offshoot of Men? I am unaware of any source material on the ultimate origins of the halflings.
"The Hobbits are, of course, really meant to be a branch of the specifically human race (not Elves or Dwarves) hence the two kinds can dwell together (as at Bree), and are called just the Big Folk and Little Folk." - Letter #131
This is also part of the Prologue, Concerning Hobbits, in The Lord of the Rings:
"It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves or even than Dwarves."
Great discussion! Thanks for posting!
Gandalf is Tolkien's own representation of Angels whereas Sauron is his own representation of Demons
Listening to the LOTR books on Audible, love your vids my man
Hey Big Fella..what do you think of a vid of all the great artwork from the Hildebrand..?? not sure if that's right.,but right up to the current art...
Excellent Video! It's hard to discern what Tolkien intended with the "Afterlife" as it is a touchy subject to create in fiction and that there is usually a good and bad place. For what we know for certain is that immortal spirits that live within Arda cannot escape it unless if by The Valar judge their spirits so. Those cast out into the Halls of night such as Morgoth (maybe Sauron and Saruman) are still bound within Arda yet in a space without escape save for the door. Mortal spirits such as Men and other off branches of Men such as Hobbits their spirits are allowed to leave the circles of the world. The Dwarves, I believe like you said have halls apart from Elves and Men where they are with Aule the Smith. I believe that Tolkien intended Morgoths final death to be the "True Death" to all evil, where there is no second chance, their spirit is erased completely. Dragons are hard to think about, they do have speech and intelligence, they could possibly be a corrupt Eagle of Manwe maybe, or that just leaving their creation ambiguous is something Tolkien wanted to do or should've had a bit more clarity on. Can't wait for next week!
Point 1. Arwen had already chose to become mortal long before she married Aragorn, so that explains why their children won't have that choice.
Point 2. If the corrupted Numenoreans feared death they could have just took elven spouses and have half elven children, but then it'll just create more problems than it solves.
Point 3. Tolkien was a christian writer with his novels inspired by biblical texts so it would make more sense that in Tolkien's universe the spirits of Men would go to Eru/God after death.
2:03 "Fear" ?
2:49 "Horror" ?
As if my existential crises aren't scary enough!! XD
almost 400 views on the first day.. getting a nice little fan base. great videos. LotR is the most beautiful story and world ever imagined :)
Awesome vid as always Yoystan. Keep it up
You do awesome job with your Tolkien videos! Thank you so much 🙏
Also I love the final positive reflection you give in each video
Great video! I have a request based on this video. If there is more information about the lives of Elves that remain and chose not to go to the Undying Lands. What becomes of them?
Love your work, especially your use of fan art across a broad range of sophistication: in a certain way, the more childlike, the more endearing. You also have an amazing talent for flowing narrative and skilled editing that makes the otherwise static images come alive. Your loving, scholarly approach brings back fond memories of my first reading of Tolkien back in the late '60's. I'm a fan of yours!
Man, best LOTR channel of all, by far. I love your videos. The way you go about making them, the way you present them. It's obvious to anyone watching, you love the material as much as I or anyone else does. Please, keep up the fantastic work.
I would love to see that video you suggested making at the end.
tolkein abandoned all concepts of afterlife of authority. SUPES VAGUE. Read Socrates. To know more.
About time someone brings this up! Ive always been curious about the afterlife in tolkiens books.
Am I the only 1 that thinks homeboy reads the script too fast? 😂 I have to put playback on .75 or keep rewinding 10 seconds over and over again
I love learning new things about Tolkiens work. Thanks and keep up the great work!
Absolutely brilliant channel. I’ve been binge watching all day.
Love the videos and content, but HATE that closing song. Watched most of your videos, just have not subscribed on principle. That shit is LAMMMMEEEEE
My problem with the undiying lands is, Frodo gave everything to the destruction of the Ring. When he found himself there he was still mortal. It's such a mishmash, of Catholic/Presbyterian theology.
I love that Tolkien fans can swallow such a contradiction: "Death is a gift" also humans who were loyal to Iluvitar get to live longer. Lol.
Men were just fertilizer for the ground.
Wait so Elrond and Aragon are very very distantly related? And Aragon is pumping Elrond’s daughter stinking....small world
So ur telling me that Aragorn the man,the myth,the legend.... basically married his great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great..........................................aunt?
I'm a middle-earth anarchist. No God's, no rulers. Stop manipulating me! I just wanna be a farmer and trade with my neighbors! ;-)
Great video mate! Such an interesting subject to think on. Looking forward to more like this!
There is guarantee that Elves will take part in the second song. Men will, but Elves we don’t know. That is what they hope for. Many people think their spirits will disappear and be nonexistent after the death of Arda, since they are bound to arda. But afterlife immortality for Elves is not a sure thing.
Note the Elves, Valar and Maiar are immortal but can be slain, they are bound to arda, Likewise Huan ,ents and great eagles are also immortal but can be slain. It seems like in Tolkien's world being immortal means you're bound to the world and thus go to the Halls of Mandos to be reembodied to live in Valinor.
while I'm not sure of what would happen to the orcs I do believe if Eru Iluvatar all knowing and just the orc might be seen as slave of Morgoth and be forgiven and be given a choice except this forgiveness or join Morgoth beyond the walls of night
I want to live on Middle Earth do bad
The Dagor Dagorth HAS to be canon!!!
Otherwise, when will Turin ever be avenged???
Whilst reading the Hobbit the other day, I happened upon something quite interesting, a single mention of Fairies, creatures that are not mentioned much in Tolkien's works. perhaps you could research them in the context of the legendarium and tell us about them in a video- would be great!
It is sad to witness in this video that people can't make the difference between the soul and the spirit. I don't blame the author, our modern cultures are just tainted in different ways than the cultures of old were. These are as different as a brain can be from a thought: linked, but distinct.
The soul is fairly easy to describe by two of its major attributes, although the other ones are not clear to me. These are the volition, or ability to will, and the ability to experience. They are often called conscience, these days, for some reason.
A spirit can be many things, but in this setting, it's mainly either the image someone has of someone else or of himself (or of anything) and the sum of knowledge, experience, beliefs and decisions a person currently holds; it can include or exclude what he remembers, what actually happened, in some beliefs the soul memory (separate from the brain's memory and sometime held as "perfect" although it can be argued that without a body many memories don't make sense), the past emotions and many things. A spirit can include other spirits it self, which can make things confusing.
After that, some will tell you emotions are of the domain of the soul, but I tend to categorize them as in the realm of the body and passed from it to the soul to experience.
If the gift of death is so good... why was the gift the neumenorians recieved... extended life? Seems like a crock of shit to me. It's pretty obvious that the elves were the favorite child in this situation.
Elrond choses to be elven. Elros choses to be man and is the first king of Numenor. Aragorn is descended from the Numenorians. Wait? Does the mean Aragorn married his first cousin umpteen times removed?
Perhaps the good men that were allowed to return to Iluvatar were made into the new Valar and would take the place of the old and complacent spirits that had made the world and grew weary with their charge. Perhaps these new Valar would finally cleanse Morgoth's original corruption from Arda and remake it the way Iluvatar had originally intended.
So, are Aragorn and Arwen technically cousins, since they're descendants of Elros and Elrond?
Definitely if after life is to chill with Jesus and sing those church music, ahh I'm good I rather be reborn just to feel existence. Energies can't be destroyed it just get transferred to somewhere else
Interesting topic! Love anything I haven't seen before! Keep It UP!!!