On a somewhat unrelated note, I have uncovered the source of Thersites the Historian's emoji. It is Cleisthenes, the Athenian Alcmaeonid largely credited with the founding of Athenian Democracy. 🏦
I believe the king having to have a guy remembering him every day that the Athenians attacked his western province shows how little the Persian king cared about the Greeks. If there wasn't that guy around he would have forgotten the day after.
I agree it's credible. Darius may have believed he needed to punish The Athenians for the burning of Sardis (a lex talionis thing) but he might have forgotten because of more immediate concerns.
Themistocles was a relative political outsider, not being from the privileged upper classes (i.e. ιππείς). His strategic ability, among other things, was to convince the Athenians that the Oracle of Delphi's message to "build a wooden wall" should be correctly interpreted to mean the construction of a naval fleet of technologically advanced warships (i.e. triremes).
Peter Green has an amazing book on this, "The Greco-Persian Wars." Green has the same specialty in history as Thersites. It's very very good, as is Green's biography of Alexander of Macedon, despite being published decades ago.
The traditional story of Pheidippides/Philippides actually recounts that this Athenian herald ran more than the 26 miles mentioned. Previous to the battle he was sent to Sparta to request help. He ran about 150 miles to Sparta in two days, and then ran back. Upon his return to Athens he ran the 26 miles to the battlefield at Marathon. After the battle he ran back again to Athens and announced the Greek victory with the words (in various versions of the story): ''Nikomen'' (We are victorious), or ''Hairete, nikomen'' (Rejoice, we are victorious), then collapsed and died.
@@KonstanzArrens Likely he ran barefoot, like the great African marathoner in recent decades, but if he did have shoes...that would be important to know just what they were. Proto-Nike's, lol.
Herodotus states that Artaphernes' brother Megabates who commanded the 200+ trireme amphibious task force that was to have taken Naxos and the rest of the Cyclades actually tipped off the Naxians ahead of the assault all because he didn't care for Aristagoras and wanted him to fail. It's pretty remarkable that a high ranking Persian would imperil a major Persian led offensive, the failure of which would almost certainly damage Persian influence and prestige which leads me to question its validity. If true I guess Aristagoras would have had a good reason for why the Siege of Naxos was such a disaster if he was worried about what Darius might have thought.
Why does everyone always forget about the 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans who also stayed and died alongside those 300 Spartans? Or the 900 or so helots who also fought to the death in the service of their Spartan masters?
Because that story doesnt sell but you're right. They all fought and died and barely anyone cares except for the Spartans. Idk why people glorify that city. They had hegemony for like a decade before they lost it and by the time of Alexander they were a joke.
The Thebans would have been fighting on the Persian side, so the less said about that the better. This is wrong. The Thebans fought on the Spartan side at Thermopylae, but afterwards defected and fought on the Persian side at Plataea. A remarkably consistent record of getting it wrong.
Personally I'd say no. Whilst the Sasanians honored their Achaemenid past, the Byzantines viewed themselves as Romans, despite them speaking Greek in trade and governing occupations.
I think that Herotidus’ story about the attendant reminding Darius every day about the Athenians is plausible, simply because they were such a minor power, and far away, and easy to forget about and, the Great King indeed did have bigger fish to fry. The Athenians were so small and forgettable, that Darius needed to be reminded who they were and what they did to offend him again lol
Maybe a dumb question but in Greek culture is a tyrant basically a city ruler or king? Know in present day a tyrant has a completely negative connotation. Just curious as anytime there is a leader that has absolute authority and harms their citizens they are labeled tyrants.
As i understand it, Tyranny means the rule of one man, so it could be either a small or large place's ruler. It must be put in contrast to oligarchy and democracy to be understood perhaps, but clearly the word's original is very much detached from its use nowadays
Yes, a city ruler who achieved power without consent. If you want something to compare it to in modern history look at Latin America's history, their caudillos (leaders) and their countless coups.
@@ilFrancotti thanks makes sense. So it did originally have some negative connotations. Wasn’t necessarily a bad leader just took it over with no ones permission
@@mattstakeontheancients7594 I think that tyrants were looked on as somewhat dubious since their power was not legitimately acquired. But in his Politics Aristotle was prepared to offer advice to tyrants on how to stay in power.
The key feature regarding a Tyrant versus a King or an oligarchy or rule based on some for of democracy is the way in which he attains power in said polis. He is either installed by an outside power such as how Persia installed Persian friendly locals of influence as Tyrants throughout the city-states of Ionia and Aeolis in western Anatolia or alternatively the tyrant seizes power (through use of force or political intrigue or both) such as Peisistratus in Athens during the 6th Century. Because of how they came to power Tyrants always had the cloud of illegitimacy hanging over his rule of affairs of the state. For this reason you often saw many of the self-installed Greek tyrants come to power with deep pockets bearing lots of gifts to placate or lessen the resistance of the people and aristocratic class whose power had been supplanted. Many tyrants immediately set about major public building programs that eventually changed the skyline of several Greek cities during this period of time. More times than not a tyrant would eventually lose power but sometimes his reign was actually considered good and his heir would assume power when he died such as the case of Pisistratus in Athens. Upon Pisistratus' death his two sons Hippias and Hipparchus took control but from the outset they ran into problems due to their lack of skills in governing that their more able father possessed. Hipparchus was murdered causing Hippias to become very paranoid and despotic. Upon learning that Hippias was liaising with the Persians in Anatolia (ostensibly to strengthen his power) the Alcmaeonidae family formed an alliance with Sparta and together overthrew Hippias who escaped to Persian held Anatolia.
"The kinship of all Greeks in blood and speech, and the shrines of gods and the sacrifices that we have in common, and the likeness of our way of life." Herodotus, 8.144.2
Apparently so. But The Athenians were on the shitlist anyway because of the burning of Sardis. Sparta choosing to join in the war was more of a surprise.
Dubious claim. The Phoenicians and Greeks already covered most of the Mediterranean before Cyrus was ever King of Kings. People in Anatolia had known about the Greeks for centuries but no one cared. The Mycenaeans were just as accomplished as the Hittites and the Egyptians. The only surefire "on the map" event is Alexander taking Babylon. THAT made the entire Persian empire bow to the Greeks and spread their culture across the Old World into India.
When you asked "how did the Persians feel about their defeat in Greece" you made me realize that Persia's defeat in Greece could be comparable to US' defeat in Afghanistan in terms of direct consequences to their respective Empires. Interesting analysis, and oddly funny when you think at Ancient Greeks as "ancient terrorists".
@@ChevyChase301 the same. lol "[Armenian, like Hittite, Luwian, and Lycian, retains the third laryngeal initially, ... These and other archaisms lead to the conclusion that Armenian is an Anatolian language and can be compared to more advantage with Lycian and Hittite than with the IE languages proper.]" SAME SAME SAME SAME SAME LOL Is macedon Greek? Same same same same same lol Are Veneto Italian the same as Sicilian Italian today? Even when they're drunk soccer people? close enough.. Same same same.
Thersites is on a roll, and I love it!
On a somewhat unrelated note, I have uncovered the source of Thersites the Historian's emoji. It is Cleisthenes, the Athenian Alcmaeonid largely credited with the founding of Athenian Democracy. 🏦
Greek city states in Asia minor: "thank you Athens! You saved us!"
Athens: "Saved? More like, under new management..."
I believe the king having to have a guy remembering him every day that the Athenians attacked his western province shows how little the Persian king cared about the Greeks.
If there wasn't that guy around he would have forgotten the day after.
I agree it's credible.
Darius may have believed he needed to punish The Athenians for the burning of Sardis (a lex talionis thing) but he might have forgotten because of more immediate concerns.
Interesting perspective .
That was an astute and hilarious observation.
@@alanpennie8013 Agreed the Athenian forces were destroyed at Ephesus so "honor" would have been satisfied.
Themistocles was a relative political outsider, not being from the privileged upper classes (i.e. ιππείς). His strategic ability, among other things, was to convince the Athenians that the Oracle of Delphi's message to "build a wooden wall" should be correctly interpreted to mean the construction of a naval fleet of technologically advanced warships (i.e. triremes).
Dude you’ve been killing it
The Athenians were lucky to find a man as cunning and resourceful as Themistocles to guide them through such a dangerous time.
Hard times call for hard men. 👍
what an amazing video
pls keep more of them coming
Peter Green has an amazing book on this, "The Greco-Persian Wars." Green has the same specialty in history as Thersites. It's very very good, as is Green's biography of Alexander of Macedon, despite being published decades ago.
Agreed about Darius I, well stated and thank you.
The traditional story of Pheidippides/Philippides actually recounts that this Athenian herald ran more than the 26 miles mentioned. Previous to the battle he was sent to Sparta to request help. He ran about 150 miles to Sparta in two days, and then ran back. Upon his return to Athens he ran the 26 miles to the battlefield at Marathon. After the battle he ran back again to Athens and announced the Greek victory with the words (in various versions of the story): ''Nikomen'' (We are victorious), or ''Hairete, nikomen'' (Rejoice, we are victorious), then collapsed and died.
One wonders what sort of footwear he used.
@@trentw.3566 Nike?
@@KonstanzArrens Likely he ran barefoot, like the great African marathoner in recent decades, but if he did have shoes...that would be important to know just what they were. Proto-Nike's, lol.
Herodotus states that Artaphernes' brother Megabates who commanded the 200+ trireme amphibious task force that was to have taken Naxos and the rest of the Cyclades actually tipped off the Naxians ahead of the assault all because he didn't care for Aristagoras and wanted him to fail. It's pretty remarkable that a high ranking Persian would imperil a major Persian led offensive, the failure of which would almost certainly damage Persian influence and prestige which leads me to question its validity. If true I guess Aristagoras would have had a good reason for why the Siege of Naxos was such a disaster if he was worried about what Darius might have thought.
And all the Greeks lived happily ever after.
Why does everyone always forget about the 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans who also stayed and died alongside those 300 Spartans? Or the 900 or so helots who also fought to the death in the service of their Spartan masters?
Because that story doesnt sell but you're right. They all fought and died and barely anyone cares except for the Spartans. Idk why people glorify that city. They had hegemony for like a decade before they lost it and by the time of Alexander they were a joke.
The 1962 film acknowledges the thespians.
The Thebans would have been fighting on the Persian side, so the less said about that the better.
This is wrong.
The Thebans fought on the Spartan side at Thermopylae, but afterwards defected and fought on the Persian side at Plataea.
A remarkably consistent record of getting it wrong.
It's not simple enough I guess. The Thebans surrendered at one point and were spared after they were branded "with the King's mark."
@Thersites Do you think that the Great Byzantine-Sasanian War of 602-628 CE was the last Greco-Persian War?
Personally I'd say no.
Whilst the Sasanians honored their Achaemenid past, the Byzantines viewed themselves as Romans, despite them speaking Greek in trade and governing occupations.
I think that Herotidus’ story about the attendant reminding Darius every day about the Athenians is plausible, simply because they were such a minor power, and far away, and easy to forget about and, the Great King indeed did have bigger fish to fry. The Athenians were so small and forgettable, that Darius needed to be reminded who they were and what they did to offend him again lol
Makes it even more embarrassing that the Tiny Athenians Dominated them 🤣
Maybe a dumb question but in Greek culture is a tyrant basically a city ruler or king? Know in present day a tyrant has a completely negative connotation. Just curious as anytime there is a leader that has absolute authority and harms their citizens they are labeled tyrants.
As i understand it, Tyranny means the rule of one man, so it could be either a small or large place's ruler. It must be put in contrast to oligarchy and democracy to be understood perhaps, but clearly the word's original is very much detached from its use nowadays
Yes, a city ruler who achieved power without consent.
If you want something to compare it to in modern history look at Latin America's history, their caudillos (leaders) and their countless coups.
@@ilFrancotti thanks makes sense. So it did originally have some negative connotations. Wasn’t necessarily a bad leader just took it over with no ones permission
@@mattstakeontheancients7594
I think that tyrants were looked on as somewhat dubious since their power was not legitimately acquired.
But in his Politics Aristotle was prepared to offer advice to tyrants on how to stay in power.
The key feature regarding a Tyrant versus a King or an oligarchy or rule based on some for of democracy is the way in which he attains power in said polis. He is either installed by an outside power such as how Persia installed Persian friendly locals of influence as Tyrants throughout the city-states of Ionia and Aeolis in western Anatolia or alternatively the tyrant seizes power (through use of force or political intrigue or both) such as Peisistratus in Athens during the 6th Century. Because of how they came to power Tyrants always had the cloud of illegitimacy hanging over his rule of affairs of the state. For this reason you often saw many of the self-installed Greek tyrants come to power with deep pockets bearing lots of gifts to placate or lessen the resistance of the people and aristocratic class whose power had been supplanted. Many tyrants immediately set about major public building programs that eventually changed the skyline of several Greek cities during this period of time. More times than not a tyrant would eventually lose power but sometimes his reign was actually considered good and his heir would assume power when he died such as the case of Pisistratus in Athens. Upon Pisistratus' death his two sons Hippias and Hipparchus took control but from the outset they ran into problems due to their lack of skills in governing that their more able father possessed. Hipparchus was murdered causing Hippias to become very paranoid and despotic. Upon learning that Hippias was liaising with the Persians in Anatolia (ostensibly to strengthen his power) the Alcmaeonidae family formed an alliance with Sparta and together overthrew Hippias who escaped to Persian held Anatolia.
Is this a series? Is there a playlist?
"The kinship of all Greeks in blood and speech, and the shrines of gods and the sacrifices that we have in common, and the likeness of our way of life."
Herodotus, 8.144.2
Xerxes is also quoted saying that his men fight like women but his women fight like men
Wpaa All that mystery is out the Window now
The man depicted at 11:00 is Xerxes not Darius
The Greeks lucked out several times it seems. Sometimes fates just on your side I guess
21:15 Didn't the Athenians also kill their embassador?
Apparently so.
But The Athenians were on the shitlist anyway because of the burning of Sardis.
Sparta choosing to join in the war was more of a surprise.
😊
👍👍👍
The Greco-Persian wars put Western Civilization on the map.
Dubious claim. The Phoenicians and Greeks already covered most of the Mediterranean before Cyrus was ever King of Kings. People in Anatolia had known about the Greeks for centuries but no one cared. The Mycenaeans were just as accomplished as the Hittites and the Egyptians. The only surefire "on the map" event is Alexander taking Babylon. THAT made the entire Persian empire bow to the Greeks and spread their culture across the Old World into India.
Platea was mainly a Spartan victory, Mardonios was killed while fighting the Spartans not the Athenians.
When you asked "how did the Persians feel about their defeat in Greece" you made me realize that Persia's defeat in Greece could be comparable to US' defeat in Afghanistan in terms of direct consequences to their respective Empires.
Interesting analysis, and oddly funny when you think at Ancient Greeks as "ancient terrorists".
Were the Persians truly defeated? The succeeded in occupying and wrecking Athens after all, and keep their control over Ionia.
@@andywomack3414
I believe they lost Ionia for nearly 100 years, so it was a serious (if local) defeat.
Explore Golgumbaz
Would have been interesting to see how the Assyrian empire would have handled an invasion of Greece
The Assyrians were so sadistic, their exit from history is kind of a relief. It's like they were a bronze age holdover of a more barbaric time.
Spartans are known for liking little boys and having trouble adjusting to women b/c they were so used to little boys. Very creepy
Phrygia and Lydia are probably Armenians.
I think it’s a lot more likely they all belonged to a Anatolian language family
@@ChevyChase301 the same. lol "[Armenian, like Hittite, Luwian, and Lycian, retains the third laryngeal initially, ... These and other archaisms lead to the conclusion that Armenian is an Anatolian language and can be compared to more advantage with Lycian and Hittite than with the IE languages proper.]" SAME SAME SAME SAME SAME LOL Is macedon Greek? Same same same same same lol Are Veneto Italian the same as Sicilian Italian today? Even when they're drunk soccer people? close enough.. Same same same.
No
@@decimusausoniusmagnus5719 fair enough (If Medes is Kurds, then totally Armenia)