That 1897 officers sword from 2:50 (ish) is in truly amazing condition. I've got a few french 1882, and various prussian 1889's (infantry, cavalry). Fun swords. Also did videos on those.
I'm pretty certain it has been refurbished and re-plated. The officer had quite a long career, so it was probably done by him when he got older and the sword had got scruffy.
Makes sense, two world wars without a single bit of blemishing beggars belief. I still have to get an 1895 or 1897. It's astounding that I haven't yet, given I live in Australia and we have the same pattern of sword as our official adopted pattern.
I used to hate them, but over time and when researching them (leading to my article) I grew in admiration for them. Not that I would personally choose that blade, but I can see what they were going for. And I think that for war they are better swords than the French or Prussian equivalents.
scholagladiatoria Same. My father had some NCO swords from the American Civil War and they bored me to death. Nowadays, I miss seeing them above the mantel.
I have an 1889 pattern either Prussian or Imperial(the crest is a single headed eagle with crown) non com sword made between 1906 and 1918. The hilt is not brass and the top edge seems capable of being sharpened(it is unsharpened) about 25 cm back from the point. Also, although I can't be sure the top of the hilt seems to be slightly higher than the sword you showed. The crest is foldable. It is in almost perfect shape. It was brought back to Canada following ww2.
Matt, if you just called the German one a "Degen"... (Which it sounded like to me.) Then no, it does not mean dagger. Instead, it'd be what you'd call an Épée.
Precisely. I think he made a mistake when translating. Or, someone else did, and then took that as a correct translation... Which is too bad in either case.
Ah, this old chestnut again :-) Yes indeed by the 19th century the word Degen meant epee. However, in medieval German degen means dagger. It is the same root word in fact.
I know "Degen" as the Word for "realy thin, long stabby/pointy thing" (so Épée) but i only know the modern word of course (I'm german, but don't have a clue how it was in history). Also the Word "Messer" is exactly "knife" in german.
Halberdier Possibly, I'd say, because during the 17th century, an awful lot of German states (with the exception of Prussia, Bavaria, and a few others) followed the Dutch example, and therefore also changed the meaning of the word, as "Degen' in Dutch (exactly the same spelling), often referred to a rapier, later more directly to Smallswords... ("Degen" in Dutch modern day fencing is simply an Épée as well....) TL;DR: I _think_ the German terminology from the 17th century followed a non-german translation of the word... Thereby changing the whole meaning for centuries to come... Matt, nonetheless, I'd argue you made a tiny mistake then... Then again, as far as we're aware, you're a human. And humans make mistakes.
In my humble opinion the very best video on this subject with a ton of information and months later I keep on catching a detail I missed at first. Having several weapons of this period - even an odd 1845 Wilkinson blade on a 1895 guard Fiore sold me ;) - from Solingen, Wilkinson, Châtellerault, St Etienne, Bavaria - cannot remember the maker for this one - an so on, I still cannot understand the lack of viewers for such a quality context, oh god I mean content. Thank you Matt!
Somehow I apparently missed this one over the years of watching you. It's interesting seeing how much better the quality of your videos have gotten, but the quality of the content has retained high.
Yay as a German with Prussian ancestors I really liked the fact that you talked about german swords! :) Hope more about German swords are coming. I myself got an antique "Preußischer Füsilier Offizierssäbel" Prussian Fusilier Officers saber from somewhat about 1840s I think. I'd love if you made a video about one of these because the information I tried to find is limited.
It's sad that so much Prussian heritage has been erased and the kingdom that was so instrumental in the unification of the German people is now no longer a part of Germany.
I couldn't agree more. My family was from Eastern Prussia now part of Poland. They fled and all their belongings and the farm they owned had to be left behind. That part of my family literally had no inheritance.
Most of the historical state of Prussia was never actually in East Prussia. It's sort of a historical accident that it became known as Prussia rather than Brandenburg - Brandenburg was part of the Holy Roman Empire and (with the exception of Bohemia) you couldn't be a king over part of the HRE, but Prussia was not part of the HRE so the Elector of Brandenburg could also style himself the King of Prussia without challenging the authority of the Emperor. But most of the territory and population of the state were in lands that were not in Prussia proper and are still part of Germany.
The shortish fuller in a thrusting blade intrigues me. Short fullers often serve to move the point of balance out, which isn't what you want in a dedicated thrusting sword.
In this case it was to make the edges thick for parrying cuts - hence the name 'dumb bell blade', because the cross-section of the blade at that point looks like a dumb bell. O=O
To me it looks like the 1897 is almost an inverted main gauche, a parrying tool for the right hand to preserve life while either the pistol or T Atkins Esq sorts out the fundamental problem. I mean sure its a sword and has to be capable of the usual cutty-pokery. But even if not a conscious evolution towards this end, in the context of Victorian warfare, an officers arms were for self defense, principally in the melee. Against peers this means bayonets, butts and swords, pretty much the same threat profile officers had been facing for the last century or three - and there's enough accounts of swords failing under those circumstances. Start mixing in pole arms, heavier swords, clubs and the like favored by native peoples who counted on melee as their primary method of combat, and that unbreakable barbell forte really starts to seem like a good investment.
Hello,I was just wondering whether the sabre partially displayed on the left handed side is a french M1845 and if so have you already talked about it at some time in the past?On a different note, there are different IOD 89 (Prussian 1889 Infantry Officer's Degen), some with a foldable guard. These seem to have the guard on tierce higher up. Have also seen some with fixed, but higher guards as well. Isn't the lower guard not actually guarding the hand but only the fingers and isn't therefore the higher guard to be preferred from a functional point of view?
The ethymology of Degen is a twice one. There is a line towards degert like for example the Rondel dagger. Straight, pointed, stiff. But there is also the medieval Degen, meaning a (noble)warrior, whom you not call a knight>servant or Ritter>rider (many times used in Nibelungenlied around 1200) On Scandinavian runestones you have the same title in the 10./11. century thegn og hemthegn (homewarrior/bodyguard/member of the retinue) Jens Nieling
I'm reminded of the time you once showed a massive, smallsword style blade mounted on a 3 bar hilt I think it was. Something about an experimental sword design. I've always wondered what became of that sword.
I just wanna say thanks for the very informative video, I'm working on a project that's set in a fantastical steampunk 1890s and I wanted to make sure my main character's sword would be correct for that era.
The British Army (and in some cases related Anglo-Indian and Anglo-Egyptian forces with British officers) saw action North West Frontier of India 1895-97, Sudan 1896-98, South Africa 1899-1902 and China 1900-01. Three of those campaigns, at least, certainly involved some hand to hand fighting, so plenty of potential use for a officers sword. I think the few German colonial troops were mainly Marines (even in the Boxer uprising)? Really enjoyed your article.
scholagladiatoria I am sure we [as Germans] weren't able to to committ the first genocide of the 20st century without war like behaviour [in ouer African colony] [not that I disagree with Bismarck "protecting merchands" [who happend to own land ther and be as upset as the emperor and generall public with his "colonys make enemies" policys] [he did quite a few things the public loved and hated in the name of security in general [implementating communist policys [so ther party would loose voters], discriminate against minoritys[ [Jews, communists..] to emphasise the general public expectations and "proper" citizens behaviour] [no he wasn't too nice, but yes, he was better than the emperor who relived him of his office [and had ww1 fought]].
This thrust centric, straight, nimble, long bladed service sword was, as a matter of fact, what Bertolini advocated in the early '800. His experience had been with the French Dragoon sword, which was actually less nimble (but very long), and he praised a sword that was lethal with the thrust and could still hurt with a cut. His body count supports his idea of a weapon that could beat both the sabre and the "rapier" (the long dueling smallsword of the time). I am incidentally including the accounts of his fights in the intro of my book about his sabre style.
Matt could you do a video laying out in brief summary the key developments and transitions in European swordsmanship from the migration era (or earlier if you're willing) through to modern sport fencing? Maybe touching on the metallurgy and social circumstances, trade and so forth if possible, but focussing on the production and use of swords. Just a kind of primer to the history of swords in Europe, really, and I'd be particularly interested in what you consider to be the important cultural and/or technological developments that resulted in the modern sport of fencing, how that emerged from duelling and so on. I appreciate I'm asking you to summarize a lot of information, but I think a quick primer like that would be helpful for a lot of people for.....context! See you at Fightcamp!
Is it possible one explanation for gradually moving to thrusting swords -in addition to the thrust being historically deadlier- is that they found, or at least perceived, that thrust-centric systems were better at defending against bayonets attacks?
George: The War started because of the vile Hun and his villainous empire building! Blackadder: George, the British Empire at present covers a quarter of the globe, while the German Empire consists of a small sausage factory in Tanganeeka.
Interestingly those straight bladed thrust centric swords are very similar to the Swedish 1860 naval officer sword. The 1849 Swedish model however was still a cutlass with a somewhat top heavy cutter. So at least in Sweden since have the 1849 model (a pure cutlass) changing into a staight thruster by 1860 (maybe some other country adopted it even earlier?). We can thus narrow the period down further to just about only a 10 year window during the 1950s where the idea of how sword fighting is thought to play out changed immensely.
The curved grip is modernly known as the Count Dooku lightsaber style, the one in Star wars episode II and III (plus clone wars) witch I'm pretty sure was based on this. It's basically that Prusian sword grip minus the basket hilt (is a magical plasma thing after all)
I've been interested in seeing a video on them for ages. I'm really looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll get to hear you talk a bit about flamberges as well.
I think that the move towards thrust centric swords amongst the various European and American armies was driven by the decreased use of the sword in combat and the consequent increase in the importance of gymnasium experience in informing the opinions of those who were responsible for designing regulation patterns.
"Form follows function". It would be interesting to see the different fighting styles / techniques (british, french, german) to go along with the different blade shapes.
Matt, I was at the Little Bighorn Battlefield recently and saw the sword Custer captured in the Civil War. Could you speak about those apparently German trade blades used in colonial Mexico and evidently America as well? Please, pretty please??? :)
Christian Schulz Between this name for a sword of similar dimensions to other nations' swords and the German plan to repel incursions on the Belgian coast during WWI being called Operation Beach Party, I'm beginning to suspect that Germans have a sense of humor.
No, we don't. You can tell because we have close to no political meme magic in Germany. People are just getting angry instead. That's good old German spirit.
I'm curious about the reason for moving towards thrust-centric swords for infantry, why did it happen? Did melees become so rare by then that it was thought that an officer would only ever have to fight one opponent so it didn't matter if the sword got stuck? xD
Are we 100% sure that the french 1882 were meant to be used with thumb on backstrap? I have two of these, and honestly - they feel more like they were designed for hammer grip - they are rather short, and without place for thumb on backstrap. Anyway - I am no expert, so what would I know? ;-)
Could a long thick forte of the British sword be also meant for better parrying capability? I mean in the terms of stopping a hard strike. It would be slower to deflect a quick thrust, though.
Matt, have you ever commented or or reviewed the series of three videos put out by Lynn Thompson and Anthony De Longis as an introduction to the defensive use of the saber?
Hey Matt, are you familiar with swords of Westernized Asian military of countries that weren't colonized? I've always wonder what swords country like Japan and Siam manufactured for their officers and if they were any good.
Japan did, but from what I understand most of the ones made for the government were crap. Officers who had heirloom swords could put regulation hilts/grips on them and use those.
Oberstgreup the kyugunto of the Japanese is an interesting hybrid of Japanese and European design but I don't know how well they function. The Chinese just adopted Prussian designs with cool dragon designs on the guards.
Hey Matt, why did sabres become the melee sidearms of choice? Seems like most people are in agreement that a rapier beats a sabre 1v1 unarmored, are there other factors which made it worse for giving to soldiers? Are thrust centric weapons generally worse against multiple opponents? Why didn't the soldiers carry bucklers? Parrying daggers? Seems like it'd be a good idea in some contexts where hand to hand would be more common. I don't think anyone would argue it's a bad idea to have a buckler if it comes to melee, and they're not too heavy or cumbersome. Is a bowie knife better against sabres or bayonets or colonial context melee weapons than a parrying dagger?
In your previous videos on the 1892-1897 pattern swords, you showed a sword with an 1895 pattern hilt, but still with the 1845 pattern cut-and-thrust sabre blade. Have you ever come across any sword with the 1897 pattern hilt and pre-1892 pattern blade? It seems the earlier cut-and-thrust blade would be more useful as a self-defence weapon?
Yes you do find the old 1845 type blade with both 1895 and 1897 hilts. And some officers ordered swords after 1892 which did not have the new thrusting blade or the 1845 type blade, but other specialised designs. You can even find old 17th century blades mounted on 1897 hilts.
Lars Petter Simonsen If you look at the on line catalog of the German company that bought the Wilkinson name, the Sword of the Irish Medical Corps seems to be an 1845 pattern blade with an 1897 hilt. I wonder what the story is behind that.
I would love to see your design for the perfect (both aesthetically and functionally) military saber. Maybe send the design off to man at arms or something
There is a fantasy saber sold by Cold Steel called the 1917 saber, which I wish someone would give or loan you for your evaluation. Basically a dutch Klewang cutlass with a blade extended to saber length, combined with a lightened by punched round holes in the hilts steel shield. To my uneducated eye it seems to provide (in theory anyway) the best of all worlds regarding cut, thrust and hand protection. Of course I know nothing about how it balances.
Matt I really hope you've had the pleasure of playing the Suvarnabhumi Mahayuth mod for Mount&blade:Warband. It is an excellent mod and I think it really captures the mood of 16th century southeast Asia. If you've not tried it I highly suggest you do.
Matt, I don't know if you've discussed this before or not but what was the reason for the British regulations calling for brass hilts when steel was stronger and you could simply gild them to look golden? Was it a cost concern, although given that officers paid for their own swords I don't see how cost would have been that great of a concern.
Excited for the Moro Kris video. If ever you need any info, feel free to pm me as I can either prepare some answers or refer you to people who know a whole lot more (basically dedicated their lives to collecting and studying them!)
7 років тому
@scholagladiatoria: oooh nice sundang you have there on the wall behind you
If we consider the infantry officers' weapons as a whole from that period, the Germans would probably need the sword more likely than the French or especially the British. The German M1879 Reichsrevolver did not have an ejector, which meant that you had to poke the empty cases out with a separate wooden stick before even beginning to reload. Not a very fast process to do even after training for it.
Though of course the Germans were not really fighting anyone who charged at them with swords and spears, for the most part. Britain was quite a lot and France was occasionally.
scholagladiatoria Yes, on a strategic level a British or French officer was more likely to encounter swords or spears. What I meant was that in a close combat situation a German officer would have had more difficulties reloading his revolver, so he would have more likely found himself in a situation, where he would have had to use his sword for self defense, regardless of what kind of weapons the enemy might have had.
Given the focus on weapons of the United Kingdom and the Indian subcontint, it was extremely interesting to see this kind of comparisons. Now, maybe my dream will come true and someday we will see weapons from Sardinia/Italy, and its arch-rival, and major power, the Austro-Hungarian Empire too ^^
I remember seeing a turn of the century sword with a blade that got wider in the last 1/4th of its length. iirc it was a German sword. Was that an attempt to make give cutting ability to a thrusting sword?
Hello Matt, quick question do you have or will you do a similar lecture on mid to late 18thC Officer swords -- I would be interested in your thoughts about Loyalist Units in the Revolutionary War era. The presumption is they had std British Issue but there's no consensus as far as I know .. any thoughts would be appreciated Cheers Scott
Recently I bot an antique us navy sword and it needs a new pice of cloth to keep the guard from getting scratched by the brass scaberd throat but i do not know what the cloth is called or what ever can you tell me please?
Matt, I'm currently looking for an 1897 pattern sword and brown scabbard, with either no regimental emblems, or with a royal marines blade, but I don't want to buy new if i can avoid it (it will be used by a SNCO to teach officers parade drill) any suggestions where I should be looking? Thanks
Buying a WW1 era example will be your cheapest and best option I would think. I don't have any coming up for sale straight away, but lots of militaria dealers will have examples for sale.
"Degen" doesn't mean just 'dagger', according to context it can be a sidesword, rapier, field sword, just sword, and, today, it refers to rapiers or epees mostly. Compare "Schweizerdegen" - 'swiss dagger' and "Felddegen" - 'field sword'
Although the word "Degen" originally meant 'dagger', it didn't exclusively mean that from late medieval times on, and especially later, the meaning converged on 'stab-centric-sword'.
Hi Matt. I had the opportunity to handle a british 1897 pattern sabre made by K+C. I found it to be much more nimble than the sabres I've tried and also much quicker in the point than my rapier or side sword fencing weapons. Is this due to the inherent properties of the design or are there variations between manufacturers? Would love to have a fencing sword that handled as well.
Hey @scholagladiatoria, thanks for all the informative and entertaining videos. I have a question. I happen to own a french 1882 model. It's not as pretty as yours, it is pretty banged up, with one of the handguard bars fractured and some dings in the blade (romantic me hopes that thats from combat, but most likely from somebody amateurishly sparring with it and damaging the blade in the process). I tried to get some background info on it, though, but my google-fu really failed me. Can you recommend sources/books that have info on the 1882 makes and markings? Cheers aforehand!
Can anybody please tell me what's the pattern name of the first sword that Matt showed in this video ? I'm really fascinated by this sword. It looks both extremely beautiful and effective. I would love to buy a functioning replica of that sword one day.
Hey Matt. I´ve recently bought a Victorian Wilkinson sword that combines a 1845-pattern fullered and pretty straight blade with a 1895-pattern steel guard, i.e. it was re-hilted at some stage. Seems not everybody was excited about the newer 1892 thrusting blade. Do you know if this occurred very frequently?
Not entirely related, but how familiar are you with the Fakir-Sannyasi rebellion? I think it would be interesting to have a video on that, or on religion in historical conflicts in general.
I think the comparison is not complete without Kavallerie Degen 1889. That thing is as beefy, military sword as it can get. Steel guard, beefy, pipeback blade, anatomic grip. IOD 89 is a toy for officers in comparison.
Regarding the use of brass for hilts, you bring forward the British experience in its colonies, but during the napoleonic wars, basically all French swords and sabers had brass hilts, while it was planned they would be fighting trained European soldiers in close combat, including the incredible slashers 1803 flank officer saber and of course the 1796 light cavalry saber (all the An XI sabers being designed afterwards). So either French were systematically stupid (since brass hilts were kept on the 1816, 1821 1822, 1829, 1845, 1854, and 1882 sabers) , either brass is actually a suitable hilt material when properly used in adequate designs. What entirely disappeared, on the other hand, was sheet metal brass guards, as had been seen on some revolutionary era sabers ("sabre de mineur", "petit montmorency", "sabre de volontaire national", "sabre à garde tournante", etc), and it's quite likely that this sort of brass hilt was indeed way too weak for serious military use, but properly cast brass hilts (maybe specific alloys and specific heat treatments, cause yes, brass type alloys are sensitive to heat treatment, they often come hard and brittle from the mold, but can be annealed to various degrees) remained in French service for over a century. It might be that the British simply didn't experiment with brass hilts enough.
By making a brass guard thicker and heavier (as on the French cavalry swords) you can certainly make a guard that resists blows/cuts better. However, I don't think there is any doubt that steel is a better material for a guard - for the same weight, you get a lot more protection. Or, you get the same protection for less weight. The French brass infantry hilts of 1822 and 1845 offer rather less area of coverage than the British infantry hilts. Therefore the British brass hilts tend to be a little thinner than the French ones, so as not to be too heavy. If you can have a larger guard that is the same or less weight, then that seems a good resolution and let's not forget that the French infantry hilt of 1882 moved to a steel guard.
It seems the coverage of the brass hilts on French saber was enough, especially if one considers the sword not as a purely functional object, but as a product, which manufacture takes place in an actual economy. We know that the British mastered cast steel quite early, and almost had a monopole on the technology for quite a while. It was the best grade of steel available at the time, but for France, it's a foreign product, which means currency leak, and from a country often hostile, which makes it even worst. Klingenthal, the royal sword manufacture, was created in the first place precisely not to depend on Solingen's supply. Brass hilts could be cast indigenously from locally sourced materials, and that is a significant advantage, especially in wartime. Apparently, this counterweighted the purely technical aspect: the disadvantage of the brass hilts of a lesser coverage was not overcoming other considerations. The regulation 1882 infantry officer pattern has a hilt cast from a white metal alloy, probably of copper, zinc and nickel, something quite similar to German silver. As far as I known, the only regulation French sword/saber with an iron alloy hilt were the navy hangers, the famous "cuillère à pot" (not accounting all the earlier walloon types of swords, and some hussar sabers when they were still close in style to their eastern origin). Some non-regulation 1882 could have had an iron alloy hilt, and extra branches, either on the outside or inside, but according to Ariès and Pétard, steel was found along the same type of white metal on hilt of the ancestor of the 1882, the non-regulation swords that were fashionable especially among officers serving in North Africa (and yours might just be one of these).
Matt's done that thing where he puts a new and unusual sword in the background of a video... It's very distracting, and I can't help but wonder if he's using it to insert subliminal messages into his videos, turning us all into sleeper agents for his coming revolution...
That 1897 officers sword from 2:50 (ish) is in truly amazing condition. I've got a few french 1882, and various prussian 1889's (infantry, cavalry). Fun swords. Also did videos on those.
I'm pretty certain it has been refurbished and re-plated. The officer had quite a long career, so it was probably done by him when he got older and the sword had got scruffy.
Makes sense, two world wars without a single bit of blemishing beggars belief.
I still have to get an 1895 or 1897. It's astounding that I haven't yet, given I live in Australia and we have the same pattern of sword as our official adopted pattern.
I used to hate them, but over time and when researching them (leading to my article) I grew in admiration for them. Not that I would personally choose that blade, but I can see what they were going for. And I think that for war they are better swords than the French or Prussian equivalents.
scholagladiatoria
Same. My father had some NCO swords from the American Civil War and they bored me to death. Nowadays, I miss seeing them above the mantel.
Dear God, IPostSwords and Scholagladiatoria have exchanged posts in a UA-cam comment! I'm happy. :]
I have an 1889 pattern either Prussian or Imperial(the crest is a single headed eagle with crown) non com sword made between 1906 and 1918. The hilt is not brass and the top edge seems capable of being sharpened(it is unsharpened) about 25 cm back from the point. Also, although I can't be sure the top of the hilt seems to be slightly higher than the sword you showed. The crest is foldable. It is in almost perfect shape. It was brought back to Canada following ww2.
Excellent video, the sword - as any weapon or tool - becomes so much more interesting when it is seen in its historic context. Thanks a lot.
Matt, if you just called the German one a "Degen"... (Which it sounded like to me.) Then no, it does not mean dagger. Instead, it'd be what you'd call an Épée.
Dolch would be the German word for Dagger, Degen is indeed an Epee.
Precisely. I think he made a mistake when translating. Or, someone else did, and then took that as a correct translation... Which is too bad in either case.
Ah, this old chestnut again :-) Yes indeed by the 19th century the word Degen meant epee. However, in medieval German degen means dagger. It is the same root word in fact.
I know "Degen" as the Word for "realy thin, long stabby/pointy thing" (so Épée) but i only know the modern word of course (I'm german, but don't have a clue how it was in history). Also the Word "Messer" is exactly "knife" in german.
Halberdier
Possibly, I'd say, because during the 17th century, an awful lot of German states (with the exception of Prussia, Bavaria, and a few others) followed the Dutch example, and therefore also changed the meaning of the word, as "Degen' in Dutch (exactly the same spelling), often referred to a rapier, later more directly to Smallswords... ("Degen" in Dutch modern day fencing is simply an Épée as well....)
TL;DR: I _think_ the German terminology from the 17th century followed a non-german translation of the word... Thereby changing the whole meaning for centuries to come...
Matt, nonetheless, I'd argue you made a tiny mistake then...
Then again, as far as we're aware, you're a human. And humans make mistakes.
In my humble opinion the very best video on this subject with a ton of information and months later I keep on catching a detail I missed at first. Having several weapons of this period - even an odd 1845 Wilkinson blade on a 1895 guard Fiore sold me ;) - from Solingen, Wilkinson, Châtellerault, St Etienne, Bavaria - cannot remember the maker for this one - an so on, I still cannot understand the lack of viewers for such a quality context, oh god I mean content. Thank you Matt!
"Even left handed I can move the tip more quickly" -Matt Easton 2017
Somehow I apparently missed this one over the years of watching you. It's interesting seeing how much better the quality of your videos have gotten, but the quality of the content has retained high.
Bless you for adding that 'still does'
Yay as a German with Prussian ancestors I really liked the fact that you talked about german swords! :)
Hope more about German swords are coming. I myself got an antique "Preußischer Füsilier Offizierssäbel" Prussian Fusilier Officers saber from somewhat about 1840s I think. I'd love if you made a video about one of these because the information I tried to find is limited.
It's sad that so much Prussian heritage has been erased and the kingdom that was so instrumental in the unification of the German people is now no longer a part of Germany.
I couldn't agree more. My family was from Eastern Prussia now part of Poland.
They fled and all their belongings and the farm they owned had to be left behind.
That part of my family literally had no inheritance.
Most of the historical state of Prussia was never actually in East Prussia. It's sort of a historical accident that it became known as Prussia rather than Brandenburg - Brandenburg was part of the Holy Roman Empire and (with the exception of Bohemia) you couldn't be a king over part of the HRE, but Prussia was not part of the HRE so the Elector of Brandenburg could also style himself the King of Prussia without challenging the authority of the Emperor. But most of the territory and population of the state were in lands that were not in Prussia proper and are still part of Germany.
The shortish fuller in a thrusting blade intrigues me. Short fullers often serve to move the point of balance out, which isn't what you want in a dedicated thrusting sword.
In this case it was to make the edges thick for parrying cuts - hence the name 'dumb bell blade', because the cross-section of the blade at that point looks like a dumb bell. O=O
+scholagladiatoria Fantastic visualisation.
Shaped similar to an I beam which gives tremendous strength along the long axis.
To me it looks like the 1897 is almost an inverted main gauche, a parrying tool for the right hand to preserve life while either the pistol or T Atkins Esq sorts out the fundamental problem. I mean sure its a sword and has to be capable of the usual cutty-pokery. But even if not a conscious evolution towards this end, in the context of Victorian warfare, an officers arms were for self defense, principally in the melee. Against peers this means bayonets, butts and swords, pretty much the same threat profile officers had been facing for the last century or three - and there's enough accounts of swords failing under those circumstances. Start mixing in pole arms, heavier swords, clubs and the like favored by native peoples who counted on melee as their primary method of combat, and that unbreakable barbell forte really starts to seem like a good investment.
awesome video Matt. I actually learned something here (again). Cheers
A very informative video. Thanks!
Hello,I was just wondering whether the sabre partially displayed on the left handed side is a french M1845 and if so have you already talked about it at some time in the past?On a different note, there are different IOD 89 (Prussian 1889 Infantry Officer's Degen), some with a foldable guard. These seem to have the guard on tierce higher up. Have also seen some with fixed, but higher guards as well. Isn't the lower guard not actually guarding the hand but only the fingers and isn't therefore the higher guard to be preferred from a functional point of view?
The ethymology of Degen is a twice one. There is a line towards degert like for example the Rondel dagger. Straight, pointed, stiff. But there is also the medieval Degen, meaning a (noble)warrior, whom you not call a knight>servant or Ritter>rider (many times used in Nibelungenlied around 1200) On Scandinavian runestones you have the same title in the 10./11. century thegn og hemthegn (homewarrior/bodyguard/member of the retinue) Jens Nieling
I'm reminded of the time you once showed a massive, smallsword style blade mounted on a 3 bar hilt I think it was. Something about an experimental sword design. I've always wondered what became of that sword.
Great Video! Dear Matt Easton, it would be awesome if you could make a video about the Sword of Goujian.
Keep up the great content
just want to say matt that having a bit of beard stubble like this really suits you. looks good man!
I do hope you decide to do a video on that Kriss back there. you've teased at it in your pistol grip and flamberge videos.
I just wanna say thanks for the very informative video, I'm working on a project that's set in a fantastical steampunk 1890s and I wanted to make sure my main character's sword would be correct for that era.
The British Army (and in some cases related Anglo-Indian and Anglo-Egyptian forces with British officers) saw action North West Frontier of India 1895-97, Sudan 1896-98, South Africa 1899-1902 and China 1900-01. Three of those campaigns, at least, certainly involved some hand to hand fighting, so plenty of potential use for a officers sword.
I think the few German colonial troops were mainly Marines (even in the Boxer uprising)?
Really enjoyed your article.
I'd forgotten about the Germans in the Boxer Rebellion! That's indeed a rare example of Germans in pre-WW1 colonial warfare.
scholagladiatoria
I am sure we [as Germans] weren't able to to committ the first genocide of the 20st century without war like behaviour [in ouer African colony] [not that I disagree with Bismarck "protecting merchands" [who happend to own land ther and be as upset as the emperor and generall public with his "colonys make enemies" policys] [he did quite a few things the public loved and hated in the name of security in general [implementating communist policys [so ther party would loose voters], discriminate against minoritys[ [Jews, communists..] to emphasise the general public expectations and "proper" citizens behaviour] [no he wasn't too nice, but yes, he was better than the emperor who relived him of his office [and had ww1 fought]].
Excellent viedo ! Thanks !
This thrust centric, straight, nimble, long bladed service sword was, as a matter of fact, what Bertolini advocated in the early '800. His experience had been with the French Dragoon sword, which was actually less nimble (but very long), and he praised a sword that was lethal with the thrust and could still hurt with a cut. His body count supports his idea of a weapon that could beat both the sabre and the "rapier" (the long dueling smallsword of the time). I am incidentally including the accounts of his fights in the intro of my book about his sabre style.
Very interesting.
Matt could you do a video laying out in brief summary the key developments and transitions in European swordsmanship from the migration era (or earlier if you're willing) through to modern sport fencing? Maybe touching on the metallurgy and social circumstances, trade and so forth if possible, but focussing on the production and use of swords.
Just a kind of primer to the history of swords in Europe, really, and I'd be particularly interested in what you consider to be the important cultural and/or technological developments that resulted in the modern sport of fencing, how that emerged from duelling and so on. I appreciate I'm asking you to summarize a lot of information, but I think a quick primer like that would be helpful for a lot of people for.....context!
See you at Fightcamp!
Is it possible one explanation for gradually moving to thrusting swords -in addition to the thrust being historically deadlier- is that they found, or at least perceived, that thrust-centric systems were better at defending against bayonets attacks?
George: The War started because of the vile Hun and his villainous empire building!
Blackadder: George, the British Empire at present covers a quarter of the globe, while the German Empire consists of a small sausage factory in Tanganeeka.
Used to have an officer that looked like George. Made for some good humour with one of my buddies.
Interestingly those straight bladed thrust centric swords are very similar to the Swedish 1860 naval officer sword. The 1849 Swedish model however was still a cutlass with a somewhat top heavy cutter.
So at least in Sweden since have the 1849 model (a pure cutlass) changing into a staight thruster by 1860 (maybe some other country adopted it even earlier?). We can thus narrow the period down further to just about only a 10 year window during the 1950s where the idea of how sword fighting is thought to play out changed immensely.
thank you. it's very nice video
The curved grip is modernly known as the Count Dooku lightsaber style, the one in Star wars episode II and III (plus clone wars) witch I'm pretty sure was based on this.
It's basically that Prusian sword grip minus the basket hilt (is a magical plasma thing after all)
The idea came from the actor handling a barong, though.
Just found out today my Saxon Sabre is 138 years old I love learning about swords
:O A keris! Video when?
Yeah, that's a rather amazing weapon. Video coming :-)
I've been interested in seeing a video on them for ages. I'm really looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll get to hear you talk a bit about flamberges as well.
Really interesting °_° Amazing video! (As usual :P)
I think that the move towards thrust centric swords amongst the various European and American armies was driven by the decreased use of the sword in combat and the consequent increase in the importance of gymnasium experience in informing the opinions of those who were responsible for designing regulation patterns.
"Form follows function". It would be interesting to see the different fighting styles / techniques (british, french, german) to go along with the different blade shapes.
It's not very known, but there's an Evil Matt, who runs a hidden channel called "slaughtagladiatoria."
Is the Evil Matt clean shaven with a full head of hair?
And how does Mett Euston fit in to all of this? 🤔
+Regolith Mett Euston's the one that was dropped on his head as a child.
Matt, I was at the Little Bighorn Battlefield recently and saw the sword Custer captured in the Civil War. Could you speak about those apparently German trade blades used in colonial Mexico and evidently America as well? Please, pretty please??? :)
Hi Matt.
You said, the degen feels almost like an smallsword. That's correct. At the time Degen meant smallsword in German.
Christian Schulz
Between this name for a sword of similar dimensions to other nations' swords and the German plan to repel incursions on the Belgian coast during WWI being called Operation Beach Party, I'm beginning to suspect that Germans have a sense of humor.
Garret LeBuis yes, we have
Lies
No, we don't. You can tell because we have close to no political meme magic in Germany. People are just getting angry instead. That's good old German spirit.
What advantage does a metal backstrap provide over a simple wrapped grip?
I'm curious about the reason for moving towards thrust-centric swords for infantry, why did it happen? Did melees become so rare by then that it was thought that an officer would only ever have to fight one opponent so it didn't matter if the sword got stuck? xD
Are we 100% sure that the french 1882 were meant to be used with thumb on backstrap? I have two of these, and honestly - they feel more like they were designed for hammer grip - they are rather short, and without place for thumb on backstrap. Anyway - I am no expert, so what would I know? ;-)
The French manuals I have seen all have the thumb up.
Good to know. I do not know French unfortunately - is there any good 19th century manual translated into English?
Could a long thick forte of the British sword be also meant for better parrying capability? I mean in the terms of stopping a hard strike. It would be slower to deflect a quick thrust, though.
Matt, have you ever commented or or reviewed the series of three videos put out by Lynn Thompson and Anthony De Longis as an introduction to the defensive use of the saber?
Hey Matt, are you familiar with swords of Westernized Asian military of countries that weren't colonized? I've always wonder what swords country like Japan and Siam manufactured for their officers and if they were any good.
Japan did, but from what I understand most of the ones made for the government were crap. Officers who had heirloom swords could put regulation hilts/grips on them and use those.
Oberstgreup the kyugunto of the Japanese is an interesting hybrid of Japanese and European design but I don't know how well they function. The Chinese just adopted Prussian designs with cool dragon designs on the guards.
Degen does not translate into dagger. It more describes a Pallasch (straight saber) but thinner.
Hey Matt, why did sabres become the melee sidearms of choice?
Seems like most people are in agreement that a rapier beats a sabre 1v1 unarmored, are there other factors which made it worse for giving to soldiers? Are thrust centric weapons generally worse against multiple opponents?
Why didn't the soldiers carry bucklers? Parrying daggers? Seems like it'd be a good idea in some contexts where hand to hand would be more common. I don't think anyone would argue it's a bad idea to have a buckler if it comes to melee, and they're not too heavy or cumbersome. Is a bowie knife better against sabres or bayonets or colonial context melee weapons than a parrying dagger?
A rapier is heavier and more cumbersome to wear than a sabre. As for parrying daggers and bucklers they were replaced with pistols.
Hey Matt, what about Italian swords? the ones I've seen are very like the British type, though i think of a later year I guess.
The German sword looks lightly broader than the other two. Am I just imagining that? If it is broader, is it slightly better at cutting as a result?
In your previous videos on the 1892-1897 pattern swords, you showed a sword with an 1895 pattern hilt, but still with the 1845 pattern cut-and-thrust sabre blade.
Have you ever come across any sword with the 1897 pattern hilt and pre-1892 pattern blade? It seems the earlier cut-and-thrust blade would be more useful as a self-defence weapon?
Yes you do find the old 1845 type blade with both 1895 and 1897 hilts. And some officers ordered swords after 1892 which did not have the new thrusting blade or the 1845 type blade, but other specialised designs. You can even find old 17th century blades mounted on 1897 hilts.
Lars Petter Simonsen If you look at the on line catalog of the German company that bought the Wilkinson name, the Sword of the Irish Medical Corps seems to be an 1845 pattern blade with an 1897 hilt. I wonder what the story is behind that.
What is that awesome looking sword just behind your head? The one with the wavy blade.
A kris (Malayan) or something similar.
I would love to see your design for the perfect (both aesthetically and functionally) military saber. Maybe send the design off to man at arms or something
There is a fantasy saber sold by Cold Steel called the 1917 saber, which I wish someone would give or loan you for your evaluation. Basically a dutch Klewang cutlass with a blade extended to saber length, combined with a lightened by punched round holes in the hilts steel shield. To my uneducated eye it seems to provide (in theory anyway) the best of all worlds regarding cut, thrust and hand protection. Of course I know nothing about how it balances.
Yes I've seen it in photos. I've not handled one though.
Matt I really hope you've had the pleasure of playing the Suvarnabhumi Mahayuth mod for Mount&blade:Warband. It is an excellent mod and I think it really captures the mood of 16th century southeast Asia. If you've not tried it I highly suggest you do.
Plz do a video about that kris on the wall
Matt, I don't know if you've discussed this before or not but what was the reason for the British regulations calling for brass hilts when steel was stronger and you could simply gild them to look golden? Was it a cost concern, although given that officers paid for their own swords I don't see how cost would have been that great of a concern.
Excited for the Moro Kris video. If ever you need any info, feel free to pm me as I can either prepare some answers or refer you to people who know a whole lot more (basically dedicated their lives to collecting and studying them!)
@scholagladiatoria: oooh nice sundang you have there on the wall behind you
Do the techniques with the straighter blade differ as they are taught to officers?
If we consider the infantry officers' weapons as a whole from that period, the Germans would probably need the sword more likely than the French or especially the British. The German M1879 Reichsrevolver did not have an ejector, which meant that you had to poke the empty cases out with a separate wooden stick before even beginning to reload. Not a very fast process to do even after training for it.
Though of course the Germans were not really fighting anyone who charged at them with swords and spears, for the most part. Britain was quite a lot and France was occasionally.
scholagladiatoria Yes, on a strategic level a British or French officer was more likely to encounter swords or spears. What I meant was that in a close combat situation a German officer would have had more difficulties reloading his revolver, so he would have more likely found himself in a situation, where he would have had to use his sword for self defense, regardless of what kind of weapons the enemy might have had.
Given the focus on weapons of the United Kingdom and the Indian subcontint, it was extremely interesting to see this kind of comparisons.
Now, maybe my dream will come true and someday we will see weapons from Sardinia/Italy, and its arch-rival, and major power, the Austro-Hungarian Empire too ^^
Hey, a flamberge has appeared on the wall! Eagerly waiting for a video on that :)
Konstantin Voloshin That was in the video before this one. The Kris
how about the prussian cav. sabre m1852? Would like to hear what your think
Could you talk about Spanish blades of the colonial perioids please?
I remember seeing a turn of the century sword with a blade that got wider in the last 1/4th of its length. iirc it was a German sword. Was that an attempt to make give cutting ability to a thrusting sword?
There are a few Swedish models like that.
Maybe that is what I saw.
Thanks
Hello Matt, quick question do you have or will you do a similar lecture on mid to late 18thC Officer swords -- I would be interested in your thoughts about Loyalist Units in the Revolutionary War era. The presumption is they had std British Issue but there's no consensus as far as I know .. any thoughts would be appreciated
Cheers
Scott
I may do in the future, but late-18th century swords are not my area of expertise.
Thanks -- will look forward to it -- have a great evening .
Recently I bot an antique us navy sword and it needs a new pice of cloth to keep the guard from getting scratched by the brass scaberd throat but i do not know what the cloth is called or what ever can you tell me please?
That German sword is gorgeous...any chance of you selling it any time soon?
Actually yes I will be.
Awesome! Now I just need to make sure to have the money to buy it.
Matt, I'm currently looking for an 1897 pattern sword and brown scabbard, with either no regimental emblems, or with a royal marines blade, but I don't want to buy new if i can avoid it (it will be used by a SNCO to teach officers parade drill) any suggestions where I should be looking? Thanks
Buying a WW1 era example will be your cheapest and best option I would think. I don't have any coming up for sale straight away, but lots of militaria dealers will have examples for sale.
That british military sword is absolutely beautiful, and I personally really love the blade itself (as well as the handle)
"Degen" doesn't mean just 'dagger', according to context it can be a sidesword, rapier, field sword, just sword, and, today, it refers to rapiers or epees mostly.
Compare "Schweizerdegen" - 'swiss dagger' and "Felddegen" - 'field sword'
Although the word "Degen" originally meant 'dagger', it didn't exclusively mean that from late medieval times on, and especially later, the meaning converged on 'stab-centric-sword'.
It's hard to move your tip when you are real super dry
Hi Matt. I had the opportunity to handle a british 1897 pattern sabre made by K+C. I found it to be much more nimble than the sabres I've tried and also much quicker in the point than my rapier or side sword fencing weapons. Is this due to the inherent properties of the design or are there variations between manufacturers? Would love to have a fencing sword that handled as well.
Hey @scholagladiatoria, thanks for all the informative and entertaining videos. I have a question. I happen to own a french 1882 model. It's not as pretty as yours, it is pretty banged up, with one of the handguard bars fractured and some dings in the blade (romantic me hopes that thats from combat, but most likely from somebody amateurishly sparring with it and damaging the blade in the process). I tried to get some background info on it, though, but my google-fu really failed me. Can you recommend sources/books that have info on the 1882 makes and markings? Cheers aforehand!
German one have ''blood noch'' like a kukri. Why, for sharpening maybe? Is this the same reason why kukri has noch in a blade?
Have you ever handled the Dutch 1897 sword? I have one, and am very interested in your opinion of it..
I mean the 1897 Dutch Infantry Officers Sword....
Can anybody please tell me what's the pattern name of the first sword that Matt showed in this video ? I'm really fascinated by this sword. It looks both extremely beautiful and effective. I would love to buy a functioning replica of that sword one day.
could you make a video about the kris and why it is wavy?
Hey Matt. I´ve recently bought a Victorian Wilkinson sword that combines a 1845-pattern fullered and pretty straight blade with a 1895-pattern steel guard, i.e. it was re-hilted at some stage.
Seems not everybody was excited about the newer 1892 thrusting blade. Do you know if this occurred very frequently?
Not entirely related, but how familiar are you with the Fakir-Sannyasi rebellion? I think it would be interesting to have a video on that, or on religion in historical conflicts in general.
Any record of these being used in trench raids / fighting?
Yes
and...... another video perhaps?
What are your thoughts on the 1796 heavy cavalry sword?
how did necessity to face polar bears and walruses in hand to hand combat in Franz Josef Land projected into hilts of Austrian officers?
Interesting piece. Could you talk sometime about American swords?
So do you purposefully put new things on your wall as teasers for other videos?
How do you get your swords/other weapons?
Are their any Prussian or German military saber manuals?
Yes quite a few from across the 19th century.
Could you throw me a link or a name? I haven't had any success finding them.
Have a look through the links on the Schola Forum (treatise database)
Christmann is one of the most famous, though it's not available online
Thanks
I see you also got both a "wavy blade" AND a Kris...
I think the comparison is not complete without Kavallerie Degen 1889. That thing is as beefy, military sword as it can get. Steel guard, beefy, pipeback blade, anatomic grip. IOD 89 is a toy for officers in comparison.
Is that Keris new?
Why if 1897 pattern is still used, the 1902 and 1912 patterns were introduced?
LordTytusMandarynka the 1897 is infantry, whereas the 1908 is a cavalry sword
Wait, what is that wavy sword?
Regarding the use of brass for hilts, you bring forward the British experience in its colonies, but during the napoleonic wars, basically all French swords and sabers had brass hilts, while it was planned they would be fighting trained European soldiers in close combat, including the incredible slashers 1803 flank officer saber and of course the 1796 light cavalry saber (all the An XI sabers being designed afterwards). So either French were systematically stupid (since brass hilts were kept on the 1816, 1821 1822, 1829, 1845, 1854, and 1882 sabers) , either brass is actually a suitable hilt material when properly used in adequate designs.
What entirely disappeared, on the other hand, was sheet metal brass guards, as had been seen on some revolutionary era sabers ("sabre de mineur", "petit montmorency", "sabre de volontaire national", "sabre à garde tournante", etc), and it's quite likely that this sort of brass hilt was indeed way too weak for serious military use, but properly cast brass hilts (maybe specific alloys and specific heat treatments, cause yes, brass type alloys are sensitive to heat treatment, they often come hard and brittle from the mold, but can be annealed to various degrees) remained in French service for over a century. It might be that the British simply didn't experiment with brass hilts enough.
By making a brass guard thicker and heavier (as on the French cavalry swords) you can certainly make a guard that resists blows/cuts better. However, I don't think there is any doubt that steel is a better material for a guard - for the same weight, you get a lot more protection. Or, you get the same protection for less weight. The French brass infantry hilts of 1822 and 1845 offer rather less area of coverage than the British infantry hilts. Therefore the British brass hilts tend to be a little thinner than the French ones, so as not to be too heavy. If you can have a larger guard that is the same or less weight, then that seems a good resolution and let's not forget that the French infantry hilt of 1882 moved to a steel guard.
It seems the coverage of the brass hilts on French saber was enough, especially if one considers the sword not as a purely functional object, but as a product, which manufacture takes place in an actual economy. We know that the British mastered cast steel quite early, and almost had a monopole on the technology for quite a while. It was the best grade of steel available at the time, but for France, it's a foreign product, which means currency leak, and from a country often hostile, which makes it even worst. Klingenthal, the royal sword manufacture, was created in the first place precisely not to depend on Solingen's supply. Brass hilts could be cast indigenously from locally sourced materials, and that is a significant advantage, especially in wartime. Apparently, this counterweighted the purely technical aspect: the disadvantage of the brass hilts of a lesser coverage was not overcoming other considerations.
The regulation 1882 infantry officer pattern has a hilt cast from a white metal alloy, probably of copper, zinc and nickel, something quite similar to German silver. As far as I known, the only regulation French sword/saber with an iron alloy hilt were the navy hangers, the famous "cuillère à pot" (not accounting all the earlier walloon types of swords, and some hussar sabers when they were still close in style to their eastern origin). Some non-regulation 1882 could have had an iron alloy hilt, and extra branches, either on the outside or inside, but according to Ariès and Pétard, steel was found along the same type of white metal on hilt of the ancestor of the 1882, the non-regulation swords that were fashionable especially among officers serving in North Africa (and yours might just be one of these).
So why brass hilts were so popular if steel is better material?
Easier to shape/cast, does not rust, looks golden.
"At delivery depot" if I trust "Parcelforce" id est Almost home
It's so weird to see swords made at the same time as magazine fed, smokeless powder rifles.
Is that a new kris?
Matt's done that thing where he puts a new and unusual sword in the background of a video... It's very distracting, and I can't help but wonder if he's using it to insert subliminal messages into his videos, turning us all into sleeper agents for his coming revolution...
Isn't the German one technically a pallasch?
I see a new sword....video comin?
Degen doesnt mean Dagger in german. Epee or Rapier would fit.
Degen did mean dagger in medieval German. It was not applied to thrusting swords until later. But in the 19th century yes it means thrusting sword.
I love the Moro Kris in the back round.