I think many people, some historians included, miss the point of the Doolittle raid. It wasn't meant to cause much physical damage as it was intended to show the Japanese that they weren't protected from attack. It was meant to dispirit THEM while boosting allied moral. In that regard, it was a success.
My father in-laws uncle was a Doolittle raider, he never came home from the war. The sad thing is most people have no idea about the Doolittle raid. And you are right it was all about opening their eyes to the fact we can get you on your home land.
Something that is not widely known, but the Japanese reaction to the Doolittle Raid included a delay in switching over to a new version of their Naval code. Since the US had had much success deciphering the old code, a switch to a new one would have meant the US would have lost much of their ability to read Japan's messages in April/May of 1942. That was exactly when the US figured out the Japanese plans, schedule and targets for BOTH Operation MO in the Coral Sea AND Operation MI aimed at Midway.✌💯🖖
A. 77 of the men didn't die on the raid or not return on the raid. There was something around 12 that died and a few more that spent a lot of time in camps. B. It was absolutely a moral victory. They thought they were untouchable. They had to be shown that they went the only ones able to reach an enemies shores. It was truly the beginning of the end for the Japanese in the war. C. It's unfortunate what they did to the Chinese that assisted or were just in the area of where the men landed. But that's not the fault of the Allies or Americans. That's like an abuser saying "you made me do it" they were responsible for their own actions and war crimes. D. Every last one of those guys have BALLS OF STEEL. That was a suicide mission . And they handled it like heros and most of all if you listen to these men speak in interviews they are beyond humble .
As a child of a survivor of the Bataan Death March, I have never had a problem with any bombings of Japan. They brought it upon themselves. Their heinous actions throughout the Pacific to all non-Japanese people by the Japanese military made anything they received to be earned by their entire society. Years later, I became a contractor for a few months working for the Japanese Government. I told my father before I traveled to Japan. His reaction, “Good, get some money from them.” He went on to say that the bulk of the Japanese people were quite nice and polite. His further statements can be summed up by another survivor’s words. The other guy owned one of the largest Toyota dealerships on the east coast. He personally traveled to Japan annually. He said he loved the Japanese people, but if he ever saw particular individuals on the street in Tokyo, he would kill them on the spot. Japan has never truly apologized for starting the war. The US has no reason to reciprocate until they do.
They slaughtered millions of Chinese and other civilians. So brought the punishment on themselves. However as you noticed the Japanese people (I have had the privilege to work with) are very kind, friendly and considerate!
It’s happening all over again? or is about to! What will it take for us to all understand, war is Hell,, after World War II,Korea, and Vietnam, It is the devils racket, The greed of man, our disregard for life and all things bestowed upon us. The greatest thing we have is peace but we won’t fight for it or do we. When we go to war
It was not earned by the entire society, that is sociopathic thinking. If you aim a weapon at an entire crowd to deal with a single wrong doer you are no better than they are. The Japanese society was raised to worship the emperor as a God on earth, the society in general was lied to by the military who were behind all the atrocities, on a daily basis, much as putin's Russia is now. They were led to believe the allies were murdering animals with no conscience. The society in general were decent people, it was the fanatical higher classes and military. You my friend are a piece of feces if you think an entire population needs to be punished for the actions of the military. Its a shame the society in general of any nation involved in war has to bear the brunt of their military leaders crimes.
The US Never apologized for wiping out native presence in most of the states. Your father had it coming when he was stationed as a colonial troop in a distant land.
I can personally attest to the great effect the raid had on US Military morale as I was a newspaper boy selling papers in front of the 3 boot mess halls at the Marine Corps training base in San Diego Cal . When they finished breakfast and began to exit the mess halls, I held up a paper and yelled Dolittle bombs Tokyo!! And all hell broke loose, hundreds of Marines swamped me and my 200 papers were gone in a minute, they were yelling at the top of their lungs and jumping up and down and hugging each other , something I will never forget!
My father was a member of a fighter squadron on Iwo Jima at the time. I had an Uncle who had fought from Africa through Italy and France only to find he would be shipped to the Pacific to fight Japanese. Dad's youngest brother was on a carrier that was bombed and kamikazed, but after repairs was headed for Japan, Two cousins were with him. Mom's 3 brothers were already in the pacific fighting in the Philippines and Okinawa. They would all be headed there to invade! They all were absolutely certain the bombing of Japan's cities - especially the atomic bombs, saved their lives! Japan started the war with merciless bombing. The B-29s gave them back the Hell Fires they had earned - simple as that.
Until the Japanese Government recognizes and teaches its school children about the Rape of Nanking, I might consider bearing responsibility for the things we had to do to end the war. Even the “night of black snow” nor the atomic attack on Hiroshima, made the Japanese government willing to end the war or protect its common citizens. The Military Junta and The Emperor have never been held to account for their horrendous war crimes.
More people were killed by Japanese bayonets than the firebombs and nukes COMBINED. 250,000 Chinese men, women, and children were butchered in reprisal for the Doolittle raid alone.
Then enshrined in the Yasukuni shrine that honors Japanese war dead. The Japanese government to this day whitewashes the atrocities committed in the name of the emperor. As for Communist propaganda. The massacre at Nanjing was well documented by the International War Crimes Tribunal for the Far East. So there is that.
The Doolittle raid resulted in Yamamoto being forced to retain a percentage of his naval vessels around the home island for fear of further American attacks on the hitherto safe home island. That’s a success in anybody’s book.
It's also said that the raid was the reason that Yamamoto was given the go ahead for the Midway campaign, so as to expand the Japanese perimeter. So, one could make the argument that the Doolittle raid gave way to the Midway failure, which was the downfall of Japan. They essentially lost their fleet there...
@@frankpinmtl Indeed as many of the Japanese intelligence officers just could not believe that the planes took off from carriers, even though they had reports of just that.
As was shown evident during the battle for Okinawa, Imperial Japan's military leadership was turning its country's entire population, men, women and children, all into military combatants. Imperial Japan's leadership wanted their entire island to be a fortress of no-surrender fighters willing to kill as many of the invading enemy as possible before giving up their lives for the emperor. Japan's military doctrine, at the time, had decreed that there were no Japanese civilians, only Japanese warriors. Imperial Japan's leadership were the true cause of the country's suffering. Make them apologize.
Japan has refused to apologize for virtually any atrocities they committed. And when it was finally discovered/acknowledged that the midget sub meant to attack inside Pearl Harbor was actually sunk a couple hours before the attack but after the aircraft had already launched, they tried to claim WE started the war! I’m glad they’ve recovered, I’m glad they are an ally once again, but I’m always apprehensive when they or Germany begin re-armaments.
Sky Den- Agreed - they started the whole damn thing anyway... Their biggest booboo was picking a fight with a country that knows how to produce weapons and is familiar with the correct application thereof.
@@soonerfrac4611 a big difference between Germany and Japan (today) is that Germany actively teaches the facts of the events, including the atrocities committed by their country's government, of WWII to their children/students in order to prevent a similar future. In comparison, Japan still refuses, for the most part, to teach the complete truth about their country's involvement. I've actually watched a UA-cam video by a Japanese youngster (late teens/early twenties) who did a reaction video to Oversimplified's WWII video. The young, Japanese UA-camr's surprise of the facts of the events is very telling of the country's stance/perception of WWII events. It's quite tragic to say the least.
You are a perfect exemplar of the doctrine of "American Exceptionalism" aren't you? For a Citizen's of a Country that still calls for the arrests of (and rightly so) of Yugoslavian War Criminals, yet still refuses to recognise the jurisdiction of the very Court's that handle those cases, it would be your own Country that would be made to answer to, should ever there be a Government in Tokyo willing enough to file a complaint against you (highly unlikely) you and others from the U.S like you, will remain steadfast in the idea that somehow, you're "a Country that respects the rule of law, and was one of the main Countries at the end of WW2 to frame the laws allowing International Court's to be established, your own Country has never been able to get it ratified by your own law maker's. Must be nice to feel the "exception to the rule" all the time, rather than have them apply in equal measure to you as well.
I met a Marine in the late 60s who was involved in the island hopping and was happy to be alive. But he said word was going around that when they invaded the Japanese homeland, the casualties would be enormous with as many as a million US soldiers lost. So when the bombs were dropped and the Japanese surrendered they finally thought they would survive.
There's no doubt it was tragic and obscene destruction of life and property, but it followed after numerous atrocities committed by Japan beginning in the late 1930's with it's invasion and occupation of China, followed by SE Asia, New Guinea and Pacific islands. Both Japan and Germany during WWII were cases of their citizens believing the absurdities coming from their leaders which eventually led them to accepting and assisting in the atrocities committed by those leaders. This should be a warning and lesson for all Americans to heed in 2022 lest we also begin to believe absurdities from power-hungry politicians and parties. History is full of uncomfortable and even horrible acts and facts which need to be taught, and not suppressed because it's inconvenient for political ideologies and objectives.
The Japanese conduct has nothing to do with the ethical nature here. The integration of military targets into the midst of the city did, and the fire attack was a horrible but necessary way to bring it all offline at once. Precision destruction and continued repair would leave them useful. The human cost was awful, but wasn't enough to stop the raid.
Yup, if we don't stop these republikkkans in their tracks, who knows what will happen. Republikkkans admire trump, like the Germans did with Hitler. People who burn books, will soon burn people.
With the bombing of Japan, once again the ugliness of war was demonstrated but to call the bombings a war crime is simply unwarranted. The responsibility of the Commander In Chief is to minimize the exposure of those serving in the military to danger. An invasion of Japan would have caused millions of casualties (both US and Japanese) and prolonged the war possibly by years. A blockade of Japan would also have likely caused huge casualties due to starvation and disease. The dropping of the atomic bombs was, in fact, the least inhumane alternative for ending the war for both the US and the Japanese. Let us not forget just how inhumane conditions were in the Japanese POW camps where starvation, torture and disease killed a great many of their prisoners. They had a right to expect the US and our allies to end the war as soon as possible.
@@jonathankenton7182 And the millions of Chinese civilians murdered by the Japanese. And the Korean women forced into sex slavery by the Japanese. And the Chinese victims of the gruesome medical experiments performed by Shiro Ichii, who unlike his German counterpart, Josef Mengele, is almost completely unknown and who, like Mengele, was never punished for his crimes.
I don’t consider myself an expert in WW2 history, but I am in the ‘no apology to Japan is necessary’ camp. Canadian military fought the Japanese military from ‘39/40 through to the end. Too many stories of inhumane activities of the Japanese military perpetrated against POWs and civilians within the empire’s sphere. The Emperor wouldn’t surrender. I don’t think the allies had a choice.
Japan got what they deserved but I also believe it is a wonderful thing that we are friends now and wish good things for them. Bull Halsey said early in the war that when the war was done Japanese would only be spoken in hell. This pretty much happened. My father was in the Pacific and was in a troop ship waiting to invade Japan the the atom bomb was dropped. Likely I would not exist without that. We expected one million American casualties . Based on Okinawa that would imply many millions of Japanese casualties are dropping the bomb saved more Japanese lives by giving them a reason to surrender. Of course the attack by the Soviet Union helped convince them as well
the only apology necessary is the Japanese Government promising Japanese citizens that the war was Wrong and that they will never be used in this criminal manner again
while I agree the Japanese, as aggressors, can't complain about the result of their own actions, I always felt targeting the working class areas to be a cynical move. I have always thought if they had targeted the wealthy areas, especially the emperor, surrender might have been more forthcoming- by who ever took over from the emperor's charred corpse.
My father was a Marine , still fighting on Iwo Jima when this raid took place. Some of the shot up B 29 s landed there on a newly repaired, captured airstrip. He was guarding some Japanese prisoners whose eyes grew wide when these enormous birds came into land. They must have known they were on the losing end.
Hi Brian, did you know that the Japanese planned to drop bubonic plague on Iwo Jima? And on the Phillippines? And on San Diego? They had already used it in China and killed hundreds of thousands of people.
Turkey planned to enter WWII on Germany's side in 1942 and invade the USSR. But by this time British Avro Lancasters started to make shuttle raids on Romanian oil fields taking off in Britain and landing in the USSR. A group of British bombers landed on Turkinsh territory by mistake. Turks were amazed by these planes. The planes Turkey had at that time were primitive and close to those of WWI. Turkish government decided to postpone its military action against Soviets and Allies till 1943. But in 1943 happened Stalingrad and Kursk and Turks thanked God for not interfering ))))
During the Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor the Americans captured one of their midget submarine crew: Ensign Sakamoto. As POW #1 he was flown to San Diego. He was amazed - not even the Imperial Japanese Navy Anchorage or the Construction Yards in Hiroshima had so many cranes, warehouses, dry docks and piers. He was put in a private guarded railroad car and journeyed across America. He stared at the huge empty spaces and the crammed bustling cities. He crossed Kansas & Oklahoma staring at endless fields of wheat, corn, oats and barley. He stared at the thousands of head of beef cattle, pigs and sheep. The automobile factories in Detroit made his jaw drop. So did the steel mills of Pittsburgh. The endless lines outside of the Recruiting Offices astonished him. He began to weep. “What’s wrong?” asked his guard. Sakamoto looked at him. “This war is already over. Japan cannot win.” The Marine looked at him and spoke through the interpreter: “You should have thought of that before you attacked us.”
While I enjoy the channel's efforts, a bit more attention to factual scholarship as opposed to emotional positioning would serve the channel well. Dolittle's raid was never intended to be a great tactical strike. It was intended to rattle the high command in Japan resulting in a reallocation of resources as America prepared to island hop. In that respect the raid was a success. Suggesting apologizing for the conduct of a war today with little appreciation for the state of affairs at the time does not speak well for the understanding required to make such demands.
As was the bombing of Berlin by the British. However, not only did it make an ass of Goering, who stated that not one bomb would fall on Berlin, but it also helped end the Battle of Britain. Hitler was so angry about the bombing that he decided to concentrate the bombing to London so gave the RAF time to strengthen and organise for the rest of the War. WW2 bombers were not capable of precision bombing. Only the Mosquito came close with it's high speed and low flying. How can the fire bombing of Tokyo be regarded as a war crime compared to the two atomic bomb drops. Also, to defeat Germany, the Allies had to bomb German cities with 1000 bomber raids to help bring the Nazis to their knees.
John Weeks is correct. The inane suggestion that America should apologize shows some of the serious flaws in this channel's understanding of history. Also, the monotone delivery and mispronouncing of words is amateur. It's time for me to unsubscribe.
So, a personal story: My dad was part of the occupation force after the war ended and viewed the destruction. He said there was a 14 mile stretch from Tokyo to Yokohama where there was nothing left except for the occasional chimney. He made friends with Japanese people, one of whom had lived in that area before the war. The civilians were routinely drilled on preparing to fight bombing. The alarms would sound, and every good Japanese homeowner would stand at attention outside his house with a bucket of sand in one hand and a bucket of water in the other. The generals would parade through the streets in their cars. This man overheard one general say to another, "As if that would stop it...". The next day he sold his house and moved away to the mountains. The night of this raid he could read newspaper by the light of the fire 26 miles away.
My dad had a very similar story. He was stationed on Tinian at the end, a B-25 navigator. 21 years old and an officer. Like a good 21 year old, he slept through the nuking of Hiroshima. Apparently he traveled extensively through Southern Japan after the surrender. He told us long ago that he saw no difference between the destruction of Tokyo and that of Hiroshima, except that Hiroshima was only one plane and two observers, and a single bomb, Tokyo was an all day affair. This video kind of put that into my perspective. As for an apology for the American "atrocity". First, yes, it was an atrocity. One we never wanted to commit, one that was forced upon us. America would have been very happy to lie fat, dumb, happy, and at peace. We didn't ask for Pearl Harbor, nor Hitler and Mussolini's declaration of war on us. And the atrocity of Tokyo still was not enough to end the war, and essentially assured that my father would have been killed early on in the invasion of Japan, had Truman not made the decision that saved his life, my life and that of my brother. If you don't want atrocities to occur, don't start a war that you can't finish. History is always written by the victors, the losers, if they are lucky, only get to right a footnote.
@@davidh9844 I agree with everything you say, except for the word 'atrocity'. The atrocity would have been for America not to have opposed the Japanese and NAZIs. The Rape of Nanking was an atrocity. The bombing of Japan was terrible, horrific, and tragic. It was not an atrocity. The Japanese killed some 20 million people, mostly civilians, before the bombing. They killed 0 people after the bombing.
@@davidh9844 My Father was drafted in July 1945 and was in basic training when the war ended. He figured the atomic bombs probably saved his life. Invading Japan would have been horrific, for both sides.
I think most viewers who criticize the attack as a war crime are missing a crucial element of the situation. Any war materiel manufacturer is considered a legitimate military target, according the both the Geneva Convention (which the Japanese government did NOT sign) and the Hague Convention (which Japan did sign). After the first effective B-29 attacks on Japanese industry, the Japanese government began breaking up the factories, sending individual drill presses, lathes, and other pieces of manufacturing equipment into the yards and gardens of the workers' homes, in what were known as "shadow factories". This had two unintended consequences. The first was quickly obvious: manufacturing efficiency fell by more than 50% because everything was so scattered. But worse: that move effectively made the home of every single Japanese factory worker a legitimate military target, under the rules of the Hague Convention on Warfare their government had signed and ratified, so many years before. In other words, the decisions of the Japanese government brought LEGAL unrestricted warfare upon its own citizenry. 😭😭😭
Making it LEGAL as you claim DOES NOT make it moral, and that supercedes all this BS that many seem to dismiss. You and others seem to forget that Gods law is the higher authority that trumps lowly man.
@@rogerfreas4139 It appears the bible teaches immorality? Countryman or other men - no difference. Perhaps this could aptly be expressed by the people of Nanking? "And a man who injures his countryman - as he has done, so it shall be done to him [namely,] fracture under/for fracture, eye under/for eye, tooth under/for tooth. Just as another person has received injury from him, so it will be given to him." (Lev. 24:19-21
My father was a Marine from 44 to 64, served in the Pacific theaters as well as my Uncle a Maj in the Marines. They both survived the wars. My father gave little details about his war time experiences In WW II and Korea. He did say that The people's mentality of Hirohito as their Devine ruler, the Imperial Japanese military's horrific war crimes across the Pacific during WW II, brought the wrath of GOD almighty down upon themselves. He thanked God he survived and lost many friends in that conflict. He had no qualms with the Tokyo raids or the Atomic weapons used to bring that nation to its knees. He stated that if they were to have to assault the Island of Japan, millions of allies would have been sacrificed. Japan was brainwashed by a false and evil ideology, that destroyed so much more humanity than the loss they suffered in the last months of the war in 1945. In my mind, Hirohito should NOT have been spared either.
Dead right about Hirohito. But if you control the Emperor then you control the Japanese people. General Macarthur knew this was vital to stop any partisan activity and pacify Japan completely. Sometimes you have to swallow a bitter pill.
@@dp-sr1fd "In my mind, Hirohito should NOT have been spared either." That's bonkers. Plain bonkers. You wanted to humiliate them and make the country unmanageable? Yeah, you should have done that. After the 1st WW, the German emperor was deposed, and his now former empire was thoroughly humiliated. That didn't help much during the Interwar Period, did it? That rather gave some traction to a certain former corporal named Adolf Hitler. You know the rest.
We were nearing the end of WW-2, started by the Japanese on 12-7-1941. As an Army helicopter pilot of the Vietnam War, I can tell you war is hell. All I can say is pay back is hell. I personally believe the firebombing was totally justified for no other reason than the Batan Death March and the treatment of POWs.
erm 1941? sorry to tell you but ww2 started on 1st september 1939 by Germany as a service man you should know this little fact, you lot were late again.
Great topic and video! Gen X'er here and in high school, I had a history teacher, "Colonel Frost", who took part in flying this particular mission! He flew B-17's, B29's, in WWII and early B-52's in the Cold War and later worked in Intelligence during the Vietnam War! When our class started covering WWII. He always told us that he flew a firebombing mission over Tokyo in a B-29 that resulted in more lost of life than the two atomic bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, COMBINED! Much respect to Colonel Frost (RIP) and in the late 80's he had to be in his late 60's or early 70's when he taught that class but he was great! He even taught AP History and invited me to be in that class, as a Sophomore!
Brian, thank you for sharing this. These glimpses of the people who fought or supported the war effort are priceless. And you certainly lucked out to have had Col. Frost as your teacher.
I met like you several 'Frosts' (uncles and renters who stayed in our home in New Haven) from the 60-ties who were there. Omaha Beach, Philippine Islands, Patton 3rd Army tanker, all gone now, among the bravest generation since the time of our 1860's generation who fought in the Civil War, I believe. They made me want to be a soldier so I did my time and survived some things like they did. Even more brave soldiers can claim their honors and sacrifices from the rotten Vietnam War. Many of these survivors roared backward triumphantly and heroically.
I had a teacher of the same caliber,but was in Europe,now we have educators who want to teach pronouns and discuss their sexuality with students,this nation has a huge culture problem that we may not be able to overcome
“It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.” Robert E. Lee It was terrible and terribly necessary. Unconscionable and inevitable. It was a necessity of war, a shame that shows us how terrible we can be to one another. Not a “War crime”, but an action of need in a time of war. When the enemy chooses to fight to the last man, the only path to victory is to take his last man.
Lee said that while watching Union Troops throw themselves at the Stone Wall at the Battle of Marye's Heights in Fredericksburg. Knowing what was coming while watching the Union Army come across the Rappahanock, he said, "I wish those people would go away and leave us alone." Lee often referred to the Union Army as "Those People." Another aside... only one Cadet has graduated from West Point with ZERO Demerits.Only one.
"Highly ineffective"? I'd say you were wrong. There were two main goals for Doolittle's raid: show Japan they were not invulnerable to attack, and to boost morale within the United States and her armed forces. Both objectives were successfully met. EDIT That's a pretty simplistic view as I left out this leading to Midway as others have pointed out. I'd say the outcome of that battle was positive.
'Massive Waste of Resources...' Two carriers, Hornet and Enterprise , operating within the range of the Japanese fishing fleet tripwire line adds up to an immediate and ongoing risk to submarine and ASUW counter bombing attack. Which drove the raid to an earlier than planned start and ended up costing most of the bombers their safe landing options to instead ditch and be captured or killed as the loss of elite crews for no real gain. Had we lost this carrier force, a month before Coral Sea and two months before Midway, we could have easily ended up extending the war in the Pacific past the point where Nishina would have fielded usable nukes. There were valid targets to hit which were much less dangerous. Circling round Australia and hitting the Japanese oil facilities in the DEI. Hitting the in-port IJN fleets in Singapore. Bombing the major fighter fields of Formosa and Hainan. Todtfahrt 'Death Rides' which unduly risk assets for Killroy Was Here showboating are to be avoided. From the 1920s and specifically Fleet Problem IX, we knew that carriers often survived less than a day in littoral waters as enemy landbased airpower had more range, more airfields to start from and a general advantage of time window in which the carrier had to remain in a given area, to successfully recover and cycle her smaller air wing. The best way to offset this was to hit here and.....................................here. So as to push-pull make it uncertain where the raids were originating as each CVBG distracted/decoyed the enemy from the other. Unfortunately, this also doubles the number of enemy surface craft, subs and ASST scout bombers which can find each deck. The Doolittle Raid was exceptionally foolish.
@@xyz-hj6ul looking back from an armchair warrior point of view, it would certainly seem so. But the fact remains, it came off, even though not as entirely planned. I wouldn't want to travel back in time to change the outcome.
I've recently completed Tower of Skulls by Richard B Frank and the Pacific War trilogy by Ian W Toll. The destruction, ruthless and wonton killing, and the reckless and hegemonic campaign across the Pacific and the Asian continent by the Japanese earned for the Japanese people every ounce of destruction heaped upon them to compel them to stop. The routine bayonetting of civilians and combatants to "blood" their soldiers was multiplied by the millions across China, Indonesia, and the Philippines. Japanese cruelty toward prisoners was unmatched. The Japanese were likewise cruel to each other, their training often causing injuries and death to their own soldiers. In barely a generation, the Japanese military known for chivalry and fair dealing in Peking (1900) and Russia (1905), had been transformed by ideology into a murderously brutal force capable of any savagery. Americans harp on colonialism and racism, but no racism compares to the beliefs Japanese held toward all other Asians in their world from the 1920s-1940's-Non-Japanese were barely human. Millions of Chinese, Vietnamese, Burmese, Indonesians, Australians, Filipinos, British, French, and Americans died at their hands. Malcolm Gladwell has treated the obsession with "precision" bombing very well in his book, the Bomber Mafia. Succinctly, the two beliefs that were utterly false and absurd drove the creation of the Strategic arm of the Army Air Force. The beliefs: 1-The bombers will always get through. 2-The Norden Bombsight could place a bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 ft. Both were ridiculous delusions, but well-funded delusions that drove the creation of B-17/B-24 Armadas, followed by the highly flawed B-29. The truth was well known. The bombers, at great loss of life (More airman over Germany than Marines in the entire war) and material cost, couldn't hit a damn thing. The move by the RAF and LeMay was just a too-late admission of reality. While the fire storms and two nukes created the perception in leadership needed to bring about surrender in Japan, it is true that Japan was failing fast. The Toll vol 3 has an interesting insight-The modest mining campaign against Japan's home water and approaches caused massive dislocation, starvation, and loss of production. Had the B-29s dropped mines instead of fire-bombs, or both, the war may have ended months earlier. [The main contribution of the Strategic Bombing campaign, according to Albert Speer, was the need to defend the Reich with thousands of 88mm Flak guns that could have been used against Russian tanks. Dozens of divisions of Flak troops could have been used elsewhere to fight the Allies.]
All this and still it took the use of the super bombs, one bomb dropped from one plane out of a flight of some five or six planes, twice, and the Soviets overrunning Manchukuo, to finally force the surrender. The wide scale starvation of the Japanese population was averted because there was still a functioning government bureaucracy to administer the distribution of foodstuffs provided and carried by the American logistical networks.
I wish every numb skull who compares the U.S. to Japan in war atrocities would take the time to learn something before spouting off on these things or at least read your comment. After all the fires were out and the dust settled we treated the Japanese WAY BETTER than they did anyone else or even deserved. I say Made in America. Tested on Japan. And though any loss of innocent life is not good I don't feel sorry for the people of Japan or Germany for the wrath they brought upon themselves. Not one bit.
One point that was glossed over very quickly was that it was estimated at that time there would be over 3 million Allied casualties if they were required to invade the main island of Japan. And this bombing was looked at as a better them than us scenario. One of my history teachers in High School had participated in the island-hopping campaign in the south Pacific (witnessed the brutality of the Japanese soldiers) and was being prep'd for this invasion. When this history was discussed in class his only comment was, he wished they had dropped 50 atomic bombs instead of 2.
that's true. Starting a war is one thing, attrocities they committed yet another. Everywhere they went the Japanese were killing civilians with bayonets......read Manilla. They needlessly killed 100,000 non-combatant civilians and raped every woman from 6 to 80 multiple times. And this author even admitted the Japanese had moved their war machine building operations to areas surrounded by civilians.
Yeah, the US Army expected so many casualties from the invasion of Japan that the Purple Heart medals they ordered in expectation of them are still being used today.
My father was slated to be infantry at the tip of the spear on the planned D-Day. A few months later he was in charge of a small detachment demilitarizing the very defenses he had been trained to attack. His considered opinion, based on his knowledge of both sides, was that he would have been killed or gravely wounded. Now my family has connections with Japan and Japanese Americans dating back to just after WWI. I have Japanese relatives. I still have no regrets for this bombing.
Giangrecos "Hell to Pay" is a terrifying look at that invasion - he takes the allied invasion plans, compares them to the actual Japanese defences and plans (they knew where the allies would land, they had studied allied methods) and factors in the actual weather over those dates. It was going to be a lot worse than you think.
My father was a Navy Corpsman training for the invasion of the mainlands. After the surrender, his CO advised them, that his unit would have been in the first wave.
My uncle Bob was one of those Marines who fought his way across the Pacific in WWII... I accepted his word that whatever happened to end the war was well deserved by the Japanese. I always considered that man a hero.... and he explained that all of the real Heros were buried over there
They had MANY times to surrender ,but did not.... As my Dad used to say, the reaped what they had sown. Too bad it took some atomic heat to take the fight out of them, but so be it. Otherwise ,they WOULD have fought to the last person.. God bless your Uncle Bob. ;)
As a veteran myself, I understand why the raid took place and why the Americans will not apologize. In my opinion, the raid caused the relocation of many of the enemy's planes to defend the homeland. Thus, we were able to take an additional island or two without having to worry about attacks from the air. On the other hand, we were faced with the Kamikaze strikes at every campaign after that raid.
Yep. The Doolittle Raid made the Japanese worried of the US aircraft carrier potential which almost directly led to them trying to eliminate that threat at the Battle of Midway
If you pick a fight you lose the ability to pick the consequences. War is a horrible thing but it's much worse when you inflict it on the innocent, particularly those who have remained neutral. No apology, no regret.
I mean, it's reasonable to regret that it had to be done. There were small children and babies who's last moments of their short lives on this earth were the experience of being simultaneously suffocated by the lack of oxygen and burning alive. So that's not super great. In response to activists requesting the US apologize for war crimes, Japan should probably apologize for the genocidal invasion of China and Korea first. At least the US doesn't deny they performed the firebombing of cities. Japan still has statues for people who performed experiments on Chinese prisoners.
@@talldude1412 I regret that the Japanese forced us to take such drastic action. I don't regret that we took that action. It was a solid decision, it achieved the objectives and so many more, it sped the end of the war at a cost that was sustainable and ludicrously one sided. So yeah, no apologies.
@@talldude1412 Took the words right out of my mouth. Germany has apologized and tried to make amends as best one can for the Nazi atrocities. Ukraine has done some serious reckoning with its own anti-Semitic past. But Japan, nothing. It's a very different culture. And your point is equally valid for the atomic bombs.
@@mundanestuff I mean, it definitely destroyed industry and workers, but did it hasten the end of the war? Strategic bombing didn't make anyone quit in WWII, usually it hardened resolve, see the UK and Germany, until the atomic bombs at least. Ukraine is a good example in modern times. Russia can lob 40yr old missiles at cities good for a cep of over 100m and Ukrainian morale doesn't appear to be flagging at all. If anything they are more determined by them.
It was the quickest way to end the war. My grandfather fought in the Pacific theater, he told me the Japanese would a different enemy. The A-Bomb saved more lives, then it killed on both sides. If the Allies invaded mainland Japan it would have been more horrific
Maybe....the real reason though was because the US was afraid japan would surrender to the Russians who would have been to Japan first if we stayed conventional. That was the rush...
In addition to the obvious rationale of pushing Japan to surrender, there was an additional, perhaps more important, reason. The existence of the atomic bomb was known to the Soviets. It was inevitable that they would also possess the technology within a few years. It was also clear that there was going to be a confrontation of some sort between the Soviets and the west. Had the U.S. not used the bomb on Japan, or had they done as some suggested and made a demonstration drop in a visible but relatively unpopulated area, it would have telegraphed to the Soviets that they lacked the resolve (or the disregard for civilian casualties) to make it an effective deterrent in the post war world. The course of the cold war of the 50s through the 70s might have been very different had the more aggressive Soviet politicians and generals not known, with absolute certainty, that the U.S. would use the bomb on their cities if sufficiently provoked.
The war ended as my father (and all his mates) were on their way to attack and capture Singapor. Their convoy was 4 days away from launching their attack, so many lives were saved the day the Japanese surrendered, on BOTH sides. War is always bad, but in this case the atomic bombs were good, strange as it seems. If you want to avoid mass killings and "war crimes" don't start a war in the first place, especially against a country that can flatten you when it comes to it.
What you failed to mention were the hundreds of lathes, drill presses and other machine tools in garages, sheds and rooms of homes throughout Tokyo who produced component parts for the weapons industry, which were collected and assembled in local factories (rocker arms for aircraft engines, grenade pins, etc). These were so intermingle with the civilian residences that they could not be attacked separately.
The Doolittle raid, while more morale boosting than tactical, did have a part in leading the Japanese Navy to attack Midway Island in June 1942. And by a combination of luck and skills, the US Navy scored a big victory there, stopping the Japanese expansion in the Pacific.
the "luck" narrative was psyops to prevent the Japanese from learning the US had a plan for Midway. The battle of Midway was anticipated by the US Naval War College in teh 1930s, and a battle plan was devised during a series of wargames that played out almost exactly as it did in real life. The US went into Midway knowing what to expect and how it would go. They intercepted Japanese codes as well which allowed them to stay one step ahead. A US journalist somehow learned of all this and printed an article, and the US gov was afraid Japan would somehow read this article and change their codes and strategy accordingly, so the US gov decided to spin a narrative of "divine intervention" instead to suppress the journalist's article. And this narrative was the official story in the US until the 1970s when the truth was declassified. In recent years people have done studies of the battle and played various what-if scenarios, and it was nearly impossible for the US to come out of Midway with an unfavorable outcome, even if the battle hadn't ended so one-sided.
Japan's militarists vowed to fight to the last man. The US chose to accommodate them. As Sherman said, war is the solution our enemy has chosen. Give them their fill.
The video mentions the factories were situated in residential areas, I've even read where in some instances machines were moved into the operators homes to keep them safe. Regardless of how horrible it was, wiping out their production capability is a sound tactic.
The Japanese did not have what we would call "zones" dividing residential and industrial areas. Further, the typical Japanese house was basically wood and paper (it still was when I was in Japan in the mid 60'). Easy to ignite and easy to keep burning.
My uncle made it to the Pacific while a Marine. but fought on Iwo and was wounded. My dad who was younger than my uncle used his ID to join the Army in Europe. He was in the Battle of the Bulge when he was found to be under age and sent to the rear. His MOS was as an Artillery Instructor barely over 17. The family got together at my dad's funeral and my uncle told the funny story. It' too bad the records were destroyed in the huge records fire in St. Louis.
Yes the records fire was hard on many relatives of WW II heroes. My father was in the Pacific AIR corps before PEARL and received 5 combat decorations including a Silver Star, Distinguished Fling Cross and 2 Purple Hearts however, I only have a few bits of information as he did not speak of the war. We (his children) did hear some nightmares occasionally over the years and yes the A-Bomb was necessary and Japan should thank the US for allowing the technology to end the war and save over a million more estimated lives than Tojo and his gang had already caused in Asia. My father also had a best friend who died in the Death March inflicted on th Corrigador POWs early in the Pacific was in the Philippines. RIP all who died in the war and those that survived to relive the horrors.
@@cnote9958 That’s disgraceful. Ugh it’s awful that the government has a long and storied history of treating its veterans like garbage once they are home.
Back in the '60's I had a college professor who was scheduled to go ashore in the fifth wave of our landings on Japan. He wasn't a fighter but would begin establishing civil government. He marched into class the day we were scheduled to cover the A-bombing of Japan. He glared at us students than dared any of us to debate the bombing. Several of us were busy sucking in air, ready to debate when he dropped his own bomb about being in the fifth wave. I knew my professor had been on the admiral's staff of Taffy 3 when four Japanese battleships and a whole lot more cruisers and destroyers showed up with the sunrise. That day, off Samar, we had three destroyers and 4 smaller DE's. It amazed me that he'd survived the war. Sorry, but the bomb saved hundreds of thousands of US troops and likely millions of Japanese civilian and military lives. It was a bitch of a choice, but the militarists had a hammer lock on the Japanese government's decision making. They were prepared to let fifty million Japanese subjects die.
I watched a great doco on the "Kyūjō incident", an attempt by some of the extreme militarists to stop the Emperors surrender announcement to the Japanese people by coup. They went as far as murdering one of their own generals. The leaders of the coup attempt suicided when they failed.
Even after the nukes, the military commanders refused to surrender... It took a basket of dirty underwear and a recording of the emperor to do what none of them were willing to.
The 1000+ year old Japanese culture of Victory or Death had to be overcome before Japan would surrender. Truman had to drop the A- Bomb! I am sorry to say "War is Hel!" The Human Spirit has yet to find a way to avoid it... 🙏🙏
Japan would have fallen regardless, it's been very well documented by historians, they were on the verge of surrender. The U.S. military wanted to test nuclear weapons.
I disagree with your conclusion that the Doolittle raid was a "massive waste of resources". That raid caused the Japanese to 'waste' many naval assets in home defense to prevent another such raid. That caution denied them the use of those assets elsewhere in the theater.
Yes, David is right. The Japanese military leadership at the time was divided in which way to go next. Towards India and hook up with the Germans and Italians in that part of the world or to the South Pacific and take Fiji islands and invade Australia or to take Midway Island. The Doolittle raid settled the debate. It would be Midway to draw the American Navy into battle and finish it off. The battle of Midway was the turning point of the war as four of the big Japanese carriers that attacked Pearl Harbor the previous December and most of their highly trained and experienced pilots were lost in that battle. Without the Doolittle raid on Toyoko, the Midway Battle might not have taken place. Plus the Japanese Army was killing thousands of Chinese at the time, daily. Some historians claim that more heads were chopped off by Japanese Army personnel during the war in Asia than were killed in the two atomic bomb attacks.
@@cathyadams3392 See my other comment. Because if you think japan was going to invade Australia you are as wrong there as you are as you are in the this comment.
@@cathyadams3392 oh by far. I read a comparison somewhere that listed the Japanese soldier with the highest kill ratio (when including civilians killed as well as opposing soldiers). And you're right about Midway too.
The Japanese barely acknowledge the atrocities they committed throughout Asia during World War II. And when I was over there in the military's in the 1990s they didn't speak of it at all. But the right wingers in Japan downplayed or outright denied them. But instead focused on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
All war crimes and all war criminals should be exposed and highlighted, the Japanese have never acknowledged their war crimes and this is a thing they share with the USA and the UK.
Japan started the war. The US and allies did what was required to end it. That massive loss of life was required on all sides is on them. Period. Full stop.
@@davidsellars646 You don’t know if that was what was required or not nobody does FULL STOP. It’s funny how people are so selective about what is deemed Acceptable to do to end a war & what’s not. How about murdering thousands of innocent civilians is unforgivable no matter who does it…. And that was my whole point what America did to those people WAS DEFINITELY AN ATROCITY AND WORSE THAN ANYTHING JAPAN DID.
My Japanese mother as a baby and her family survived this very attack. the family house in downtown Nakakano in the center of Tokyo, and the family the family shrine two blocks away were the only building to survive the attack relativiely unscathed. To this day a hard memory for her still. Thankfully the war is over. The US and Japan are strong allies and family now.
@@seanlander9321 Not to mention, the atrocities That will be felt until next century. They may have erased it from their own history But they're just as responsible for the nuclear age as America. The seal was broken on the use of atomic weapons that event will come back on us all of us some day. Granted it may have been inevitable to use atomic weapons now or later, but that's not the way history played out.
@@seanlander9321 Wow, You said nothing offensive, yet UA-cam shadow banned your reply. You didn't even say anything controversial and they hid your response. Y.T is out of control.
By dropping the Atomic bombs saved many lives including my Dad because they were loading up on ships in France to go to Japan ! He had already survived fighting the Nazis and was going to have to fight the Japanese! He had already lost one brother in 1944 fighting the Japanese around the Philippines and he was happy when they told him the Japanese had surrendered!
My grandfather was also spared combat in Japan because of the surrender. His regiment was already in Hawaii, Due to delays they have spent a little over a year there. when it was already decided they were going to be part of the invasion of Japan and were gearing up the war ended and instead his unit was demobilized and sent home.
My dad as well. He was told that his odds of survival were low, but that the invasion of Japan was necessary as they refused all demands to surrender. He had trained to be a glider pilot after driving a truck through the ETO, but had hoped for better odds.
My father was on Okinawa training for the invasion of Kyushu. He was a US Army Combat Engineer and had already been involved in brutal cave fighting on both Guam and Okinawa. I have no doubt I wouldn't be here but for the atomic bombs dropped on Japan.
My father in the ETO from D-Day, wounded at the battle of the Bulge and at the crossing of the Rhine was building the camp to send the GIs to the Pacific. I have a picture of him on a bridge in the camp of a GI rowing a boat that says Pacific Bound. I have no doubt there is a good possibility I would not exist if the fire bombing and Atomic bombing of Japan had not occurred As horrible as the Germans were; the Japanese were worse! The appearance and truth was buried and and distorted to create the image of Japan and make them our allay against rising Russia and China.
the Doolittle raid wasn't so much about doing damage per say. It was more about morale. It let the Japanese know they weren't untouchable anymore plus they would have to keep troops at home to defend against air raids. So while it didn't take out military capabilities it did remove them from battles by keeping them back just in case.
Learning about WWII, even as a child in the 1960s, taught me the evil that lies in the heart of men. Many young people today think that they are morally better than this which is what scares me.
Given the chance of no repercussions, humans, will sink to the lowest levels of morality. I once told a younger person trying to harangue me about my Vietnam service "just be tankful you have people like me to protect you from people like me".
The greatest generation wasn't so morally deficient as you seem to conclude here. It seems to me that you should read more about the terrible situation that the Japanese put the Americans in during the latter months of the war. They fanatically fought to the last man. They held suicidal last-stands on every island which were only intended to cause as many casualties as possible to US troops. They flew their planes, with bombs attached and filled with gasoline, into American ships; killing thousands of sailors. They refused to negotiate and they vowed to never surrender. So, invading their country would have cost the USA many thousands of lives and it would have dragged the war out for years to come, which would have made the entire world suffer. With their limited technology, I believe that this was the USA's only option. They didn't have smart bombs which could only hit military targets, thus saving civilian lives. They only had dumb bombs which had to be dropped enmass and then they'd basically hit the intended target by luck. They had no other options and they were seeing the casualty counts of their own soldiers steadily growing each day as they advanced closer to Japan. Put yourself in their position. What would you have done? Sacrificed tens or hundreds of thousands of the lives of your own countrymen in a bloody invasion attempt? Or would you have done something like this, which I'm sure was sickening to even contemplate, but in the end would you have concluded it was better than the alternative?
They definitely arent morally better, their bankrupt morals are just shielded by those who came before them sacrifices. We live in the Goldilocks era of Human history It won't always be this way. They don't have to make the choices and decisions, or sacrifices. They sit back and bicker over entitlement
@@writerme You should consider reading The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (who I am informally quoting by the way). My father and 4 of my uncles bravely fought for this country in WWII BTW.
My father, God rest his soul and others on the Allied side as well, worked in a war-related plant in Schenectady, N.Y. and was, therefore, exempt from serving in the active military. He got to know many many active service personnel some of whom served on shipboard off the coast of Japan. To a man, they were extremely grateful for the Air Force efforts in bringing the war to mainland Japan. The toll of American lives had we had to invade would have been monsterous ! Many asked how those who objected to carpet bombing or the atomic bombs would have felt if they had been on the decks of the landing ships off the Japanese coast waiting their turn to go ashore and face the perhaps certain death involved !
My grandfather was a radio operator on a B-29 named Genie, in the 20th Air Force. 58th Bomb Group; he flew in the Tokyo Raids. One mission their bomber sustained heavy damage from Japanese anti-air defenses resulting in them having to fly towards China as they wouldn’t have been able to make it back to the island they took off from. I think it was Tinian, I don’t remember. His pilot and copilot died in the crash landing somewhere about 15 miles inland luckily in an allied region of China. Grandpa and the rest of the crew were later rescued by Chinese farmers and several Chinese militiamen who had never seen an American before. Eventually they got back to an airbase and he then flew aboard Jacks Hack, which is currently on display at the New England Air Museum.
Martin Caidens book A Torch to the Enemy is a detailed account of this fire raid. The effects on the populace are detailed. Strategically it definitely moved the needle towards the Japanese surrender.
I don’t know if I entirely agree. I would say it required Japan to pull what little resources they had left back to the home islands to defend it. You could say it shortened the war since Japan couldn’t really defend much further outside the home islands. Especially by air. The population itself could have wanted to end the war, by the military government by no means wanted to surrender
@@WAH1447_cards ...THE PROBLEM WAS THAT THE BIG SHOTS IN JAPAN HAD TOO DAM MUCH TO ANSWER FOR- AND THEY WERE TRYING TO SAVE THEIR OWN HIDES BY DRAGGING OUT THE WAR- AND GAMBLING THAT THE U.S. WAS WOULD TIRE OF THE BLOODSHED AND CAVE IN FIRST!!! ...BUT THE U.S. FOOLED JAPAN- AND NUKED JAPAN'S ASS-(!)
When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, they awoke the sleeping giant. They delivered a "divine" wind, but in the end, they reaped the whirlwind. If we had not finished the war, many millions of additional lives would have been lost and rather than focusing on the economics, the point was to finish the war they started. Often overlooked is that we were also preventing Russia from taking any of the Japanese territories.
The Japanese also attacked Pearl before declaring war (they tried to declare before but their embassy people screwed it up). The US knew of the approaching attack due to having broken the Japanese code but they screwed up getting message to Pearl before the attack started.
Euclidus--- You would do well to read more of the beginnings of the war between U.S. & Japan. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. The occasional shooting started in the late 30's when the US 6th Fleet blockaded their oil shipments coming through the Philippine shipping lanes. The 6th Fleet shelled their Merchant Marine ships. And "millions of additional lives"?? You're just ranting mindlessly there. Many more lives would have been lost, yes, but not anything like millions. Calm down and do your research.
@@lesizmor9079 ...HAS IT EVER OCCURRED TO YOU THAT THE U.S. INTERFERING WITH JAPANESE SHIPMENTS MIGHT HAVE HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE ATROCITIES JAPAN WAS INFLICTING ON CHINA- AND THE U.S. DIDN'T WANT TO CONTINUE BEING AN ACCESSORY TO JAPAN'S AGGRESSION?!!
@@lesizmor9079 Bull$hit! The Sixth Fleet was not established until February 1950 and was in the Mediterranean. Prior to WW2 the Asiatic Squadron was responsible for that area and was so understrength that they wound not dare pick a fight with the Japanese navy. The unprovoked attack and sinking of the USS Panay on December 12, 1937 was the only attack between the two countries prior to Pearl Harbor. You are the one making stuff up.
@@daleburrell6273 Lez Izmor's post is pure fabrication. He is either making it up or has confused the embargos, an economic measure, with some sort of military measure.
Well Done!!! and this from a person who has studied the war in the Pacific since 1962. My interest was stoked because my father had been a TBM Avenger pilot in Night Torpedo Squadron 90 aboard the USS Enterprise. On February 17, 1945, he flew a night strike on Tokyo in the first carrier attack since the Doolittle raid. You perfectly described the B-29 fire bombing of Tokyo and I am impressed with your presentation. I might add that the high altitude precision bombing did not work because our B-29s were dropping bombs from 30,000 feet that fell through jet stream winds which scattered the bombs. In fact, some of the winds aloft our planes encountered reached 200 mph and had never been seen before. Again, kudos to you from a highly knowledgeable historian.
No one in WW2 was more lethal than the Japanese soldier. For every Japanese soldier killed, that soldier killed eight soldiers and civilians (mostly civilians in China). Very few allowed themselves to be taken prisoner, and their horrific war crimes are well known and documented. Their treatment of prisoners and conquered civilian populations was incomprehensible. And they would. not. give. up. In the end, the only thing that finally convinced the Emperor to give in wasn't our little nukes that did less damage than Lemay's firebombing, but instead was the Soviet invasion of Manchuria on August 9th when 1.5 million Russians flooded Manchuria and threatened Japan with a fate worse than annihilation - complete subjugation at the hands of the Soviets.
You are mostly correct, except for the reason why it was a worse fate for japan's government; it was the fact that under soviet occupation, the fascists and almost certainly the emperor as well would have been executed, as shown by Unit 731 being left off the hook damn near scot free despite committing countless war crimes and numerous crimes against humanity.
Without the United States propping them up, the Soviets didn't have the wherewithal to invade Japan. Too much emphasis and credit is given to the Soviets by the revisionist historians. Without the United State's Lend Lease program and Germany losing access to the vast oil fields in North Africa, the Soviets would have been crushed by Germany within the first 6 months...
The USA was said to lose 1,000,000 men in fighting to take the islands of Japan. My Dad might have been one of them but the war that Japan started ended first, thank god. WAR is a terrible thing but there is one thing that worsts than war, losing one.
When I was a Navy Intel Officer, I took part in an exercise with the JSDF Navy attached to COMUSFJ staff at Yakota Air Base outside Tokyo. We were given a "cultural sensitivity" brief before leaving CONUS. They told us we would each have an equal rank JSDF counterpart officer, and discussion of WWII was fine as long as we didn't bring up how it started or how it ended! Since I married the daughter of an Army grunt assigned to the planned invasion of Japan I have no scruples about anything we had to do to stop the bestial behavior of the Japanese military.
It is my understanding the Japanese had to keep ships and planes in the home Islands to protect the home islands that they would not otherwise have had to keep there. In my opinion it seemed like the Doolittle Raid was a tremendous success and tying up Japanese forces in the home Islands.
At the time of the bombing Japan had initiated the kamikazes, created the Iwo Jima bloodbath and the atrocities in the Philippines. It was clear that the Japanese weren't going to take the easy way out which meant that it wasn't possible to hold back.
The victor of war doesn't need to apologize to the defeated. On top of that very few Japanese military members were ever punished for the war crimes they committed, nor has the Japanese government apologized for them or even recognized many of them even happened
There is absolutely no reason for the great grandchildren of forefathers to apologize to the great-grandchildren of those who ambushed the US in the first place. No way, no how - and I say that as a person of Asian heritage living the US myself. War illustrates the outer limits of evil, and the desperation of humanity to maintain itself through it. Nothing resets humanity's priorities faster than a world war - which is why we have only had two of them and tried our best not to have another (though one may argue what's going on in Ukraine and Taiwan to be the opening act of the third one).
The atrocities committed by the Japanese army at that time more than overshadows any bombings they were unleashed on them. Read the story of the Bataan Death March. You can also read about what happened in Nanking, China.
My father survived the death march. The Rape of Nanking is perhaps the most horrible exhibition of inhumanity of people of similar races against each other. Our Civil war pales by comparison. When the JAPANESE chose to attack us, for cutting off their supplies of oil, as Admiral Yamamoto said, I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant. They actually ate some of our captured soldiers in their belief that consuming a person, or his organs would give them the fearlessness of the unwilling donor .
My Father, two of his brothers-in-law, & one of his cousins finished their work in Europe and my Father was on a ship headed to Japan by the time the Atomic bombs were dropped in Japan. The U. S. Military had 500,000 Purple Heart Medals stamped out and supplies for World War II to be fought until 1948 were being stacked on Pacific Islands. Plans were made but not approved for using poison gas delivered by airplane which was estimated to kill 7-10 million Japanese in 10 days. I and millions of other Americans & Japanese would not exist if that war had continued for 2-3 more years.
People seem to forget or don’t know that because of the firebombing campaign that destroyed most Japanese cities at the end of World War Two is the reason Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen for the atomic bombs. It was because they were two of the largest cities that had yet to be firebombed is the reason the US chose to nuke them.
I’m from the Marianas Islands(Saipan).You can still see the bunkers and shelters were they stored bombs and I often walk on the old runways where the bombers took off. I’ve even seen the atomic bomb pits where they loaded them onto the planes.
One of the runways on Tinian has been restored to operational status. The US Marines use it during training exercises. I recently saw a video of a Marines C-130 landing on it.
I read a first hand account of one of these fire bombing raids. Long story short, a new member of the bomber crew saw the entire horizon a glow. He ask how close they were. The pilot replied, we're still ninety miles out from the coast. Until the aggressor (Japan) asks forgiveness an apology is meaningless.
Richard Rogerson Yes sadness is on order, but not an apology. The only apology due is from the Japanese military for starting the war and murdering some 20 million people.
The "intense gust of wind" that was interfering with precision bombing is better known as the Jet Stream. It wasn't some random event. It was a steady 200mph, right at the altitude where the B-29s flew, and nobody knew it was there before, because nobody ever flew over Japan at that altitude before. Fun fact - One of 21st Bomber Command's meteorologist was Edward Lorenz, who would go on to discover Chaos Theory and what is popularly known as "The Butterfly Effect." He'd been just weeks away from a PhD in Mathematics from Harvard when the US entered the war and he was recruited to become a meteorologist. That was where he found his passion. So you could say that Pearl Harbor was a butterfly flapping its wings in the course of his own life.
When considering the US bombing of Tokyo and other legitimate targets in Japan, let us not forget the appalling treatment of captured American aircrew at the hands of the Japanese who refused to be signatories to The Geneva Convention. Brave men who deserve our respect and admiration for their service.
Not quite. The Geneva Convention originated from 1949. The Geneva Protocol from 1925 has Japan as a signatory and Japan was a signatory to part IV "Convention respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land" of the Hague convention of 1907. Ironically, the US was a party to the Geneva Protocol under "Parties with unwithdrawn reservations limiting the applicability of provisions of the Protocol".
@@TomFynn The Geneva Convention consists of four treaties signed over the course of 30 years. The third one about prisoners of war was drafted in 1929. Japan, despite signing it, considered it illegitmate.
It is truly heartbreaking. It’s a damn shame things have to hit so hard. They lit the fuse as sad as it was. They begged the Japanese over and over to give up.
My father, who was in the Pacific theater during the time up to the Tokyo raid, and if he was still with us, he would say........Hell no! No apology. We didn't start it, but we damn well finished it.
@@jonaarbakke9633 There was no blockade on Japan. Embargo of oil and steel yes, blockade no. Otherwise our battleships would not have been in port at Pearl Harbor. And by the way, Japan invaded China.
You missed the point of the Doolittle raid entirely. A handful of B25s was never meant to knock out whole factories, shipyards, government building or anything else of significance. They were not meant to do major physical damage. They meant to and did in fact cause psychological damage to Japanese moral. They sent a message to Tojo and company not to get smug or complacent, that the U.S. could and would strike at the heart of the Japanese empire. It was just a matter of time. For someone who is supposedly up on their history, you seem to display a rather severe lack of information here!
My late father was an RCAF Halifax bomber pilot in the European theater in WWII. I recall asking him about the morality of the fire-bombing of Dresden late in war (he was not involved personally). He replied , “Son, you cannot understand. It was war. And Dresden was a target.” War by definition involves the suspension of morality. Memories of the war tormented the soul of my father until his death at ninety-two.
Funny isnt it - when we burn down a whole city and the people in it, it is not a war crime but when Russia hits some apartment towers it is a war crime? Now it seems destroying the electricity grid is also unacceptable yet, when The Us Attacked Iraq and when NATO bombed Belgrade, the first things they targeted were electricity, communications and bridges because they were treated as military targets. People should appreciate that the Russians held off attacking the infrastructure for so long.
@@kenneths.perlman1112 Morality?Massacring the American Indians, nuking whole cities full of civilians, firebombing cities full of civilians, napalming civilians?
Although the damage done and lives lost by the fire bombing of Tokyo during the "Night of the Black Snow" would likely be consider a war crime and/or a crime against humanity by today's standards and rule of warfare, it would be wise to consider the context in which this event took place. The US had recently been attacked at Pearl Harbor and had suffered tens of thousands of loses during it's island hopping campaign, and well as numerous loses of warships and aircraft in various sea battles as well such as in Midway. It wasn't a given that the US was going to be as successful as it was in getting close to Japan as it was and it could be said that in some cases such as Midway it was almost more a matter of luck that the US won than anything else since there were many times that the Japanese likely had the advantage in the battle. None the less, even when the US won any battle it was all but a given that every victory came at a great cost and the Japanese were fanatical in their beliefs and gave incredible resistance in each conflict. For the Japanese it was a doctrine of victory or death and they expect little quarter and gave almost none if any. Against such an enemy a military commander can not handle them with "kid gloves" so to speak and one would have to expect to use any military resource available to it's utmost potential. If they were not willing to do this, then it is possible that the enemy commanders themselves could seize an opportunity to use whatever resources that were not destroyed do to the commanders timid hesitation. In other words, both the US and Japanese commanders believed they were in a kill or be killed situation and were willing to use almost any and all means to destroy their enemies ability to conduct war. It is easy to point out in times outside of such a conflict that a military commanders actions could be a war crime but if one takes a moment to realize that the reason such a person was put in such a position is because of what they are willing to do to protect their country it might be easier to understand why such actions were done. If somehow the Japanese had won the war, they would have tortured and then killed every US commander (as well as most of the pilots and soldiers that fought against the Japanese) who responsible for bombing of Japan that they could get their hands on. I'm not saying it is "OK" that the US did what it did partly out of fear of what the Japanese would do to those that they conquered, I'm just saying that one should also think about how little quarter the Japanese would have given if they ever had the upper hand during WWII and if they would have considered it a war crime if their commanders did the same thing to US cities and civilians. All that said I'm glad the US and Japan are today allies on good terms and that we have mostly overcome our differences since the war. The Japanese are smart, hard working people, and I feel sorry for the US and Japanese loses that were cause by WWII and hope that in the future we can stop and many destructive wars as possible before they start.
Very well and thank you for sharing your thoughts on the matter. I wonder how one views the US today with its war mongering and imperialistic ambitions that has virtually been in a constant state of war for the past 200 years for the sole reason to do the political class and their lobbyists bidding? Ukraine is the latest example that by virtue has tarnished the US's moral standing in the world because of its proxy disposition and regime change mentality that it has encroached upon many countries sovereignty in the world with. For this a growing resentment towards the US has grown and continues to hurt US standing in today's world.
@ joseyzadoria... Are you a Russian disinformationalist? The US fights AGAINST imperialist aggression- like Russia's invasion of Ukraine, after its annexation of Crimea. The US protects the rights of freely elected states.
Operation Meetinghouse on March 9-10, 1945 was the incendiary bombing of Tokyo which with a combination of high wind and the wooden houses caused a massive firestorm resulting in tremendous loss of lives and property. It’s the single most destructive act of war in human history. Well over 100,000 dead and over a million homeless. The Japanese called it the “Night of the Black Snow”. US used B-29 bombers at fairly low altitude to drop napalm and white phosphorus.
The Tokyo raid was horrific, according to my father who piloted one of the B29s. In fact, there actually were two such raids. And the bomber groups each struck multiple times each of those nights. Each airplane was loaded half with incendiary and half with high explosive bombs. Their first pass they dropped the incendiary bombs, then they circled back to drop the high explosives to thwart any efforts to fight the fires. There is no need for apologies for the Tokyo raid or the A bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Yes, it is estimated between 80,000 and 130,000 died in the Tokyo raids, while between 130,000 and 215,000 died in the two atomic blasts. So somewhere between 210,000 and 345,000 between the four raids. Many of those killed were civilians, but much of the civilian population was involved in production for the war effort (as in the US) and unlike in the US and Europe, many Japanesex production facilities were scattered throughout residential neighborhoods. But also consider that most probably the Japanese were the aggressor and their military is believed to have killed 6,000,000 from 1937 when they invaded China to the end of WWII in 1945. Some estimates run as high as 10,000,000. Those included both military and civilian from the many Asian nations they invaded, as we all as Allied military, millions of forced laborers and at least 138,000 prisoners of war. If the Allies had instead landed on the Japanese mainland it was estimated just establishing a beachhead would cost 50,000 American lives. After our experience capruring Iwo Jima and Okinawa (where 19,000 American soldiers, 132,000 Japamese military and up to 130,000 Japanese civilians died) MacArthur feared the Imperial government would lose control and a guerrilla war develop on the Japanese mainland that saw 1 million Allied soldiers fight for ten years to truly subdue the country. The loss of life on both sides would have been in the millions of that had happened. So as horrible as the Tokyo fire bombings and the two atomic bombs were, no apologies are needed because those actions brought to a swift end a war that would otherwise have been far more costly in lives and destruction.
@@rogerfreas4139 I worked for a Japanese company - SMC, which is now a billion $ a year company - wanna guess where it started? In the founder's house, in a residential area, making components used by thier military. So was it a legitimate target ? Same with VC using hospitals and schools as base camps to attack us.
@Fidd88, I'm just sorry they didn't have enough a-bombs to enable the Allied forces to carpet bomb that whole damned country. What they did to the POW's and to the Chinese would have been justification enough!
Sympathy? Only in a dictionary. It's just shame they didn't have enough a-bombs to carpet bomb that country and pay them back at least partially for the savage barbarism they used to conduct the war.
I am far more than "remotely educated" on Japanese military actions from 1931-45. That you can't imagine sympathy for women and children dying slowly from flames, heat and smoke only means you have an unusually tiny imagination.
I'm less sure than this otherwise excellent video that antiaircraft gun fire caused the B-29 losses on the first Tokyo fire bombing missions. Most of the AAA guns defending Tokyo were relatively old and slow firing 80mm and 75mm weapons. Some more modern 120mm weapons also participated in the defense of Tokyo. However, one reason LeMay made the decision to execute this mission was the weakness of IJA low-level defenses. Unlike the Luftwaffe, the IJA did not have excellent 37mm and 20mm AAA weapon systems and mostly relied on slow-firing 25mm systems for low level air defenses that had a low muzzle velocity and an intense muzzle flash that would have impeded gunnery accuracy, especially at night. Moreover, all IJA AAA guns in Tokyo would have had restricted fields of fire against low level attackers that would have reduced engagement opportunities. In any event, returning aircrew reported massive thermals over the target caused by the intense fires raging below. Some returning crews reported observations of neighboring B-29s being flipped over on their backs and crashing into the ground. I suspect thermals accounted for a significant share of the relatively heavy B-29 losses that night over Tokyo. Collisions in the crowded night sky probably accounted for a few losses too.
My dad was very busy shooting down kamikazi raid on the fleet around Okinawa. His ship never made it back to the states, being sunk an hour or so before she was to be relieved for her return to SF for a refit. They had fired so much ammo that her 40mm would glow cherry red. My dad would never agree to any statements of regret and I could see him telling anyone who called for war crimes to stick it.
My dad was a part of that raid with the 314 bomb wing 19th bomb group, 28th squadron He was a left blister gunner, City of Tulsa was the name of the plane, M11 plane number. He told me stories of that raid when I was a kid.
The US has no reason to apologize for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Japanese were the first to attack and had to pay the consequences for their actions. Unfortunately war is not a game that you can play where no one dies, too many do and that is why we need to learn to get along with each other and respect each others boundaries.
But that’s just it, the Japanese military was the first to attack, the price of the bloodshed at Pearl Harbour does not lay at the feet of innocent civilians. Though I do see and understand the other side of it, the Japanese government refusing to capitulate and negotiate does put America in a tough spot, I don’t have the answer to whether America should apologize. But I will say that you disregarding the mass killing of the innocent as the consequences of starting a war is shortsighted and objectively false
I get that, but war crime hearings should have been pursued over the atomic bombings. Winning a war you didn't start doesn't give any nation agency to liquidate hundreds of thousands of civilians.
@@Ulrich_von_Jungingen The two.bombings killed 200,000 people. A conventional invasion of the Japanese home islands would have killed 1 million allied servicemen and 5 to 6 million Japanese civilians. The Japanese held in reserve 10,000 planes to be used as Kamikazis against our invasion fleet. And they were training civilians to meet our landing at the beaches with sharpened bamboo sticks and satchel charges strapped to their bodies. So Gen Ulrich, which butcher bill would you like to pay ? We need your answer. Col Tibetts is in the Enola Gay with the engines idling. Give the order: Proceed with the mission to bomb Hiroshima, or Scrub the Mission? Which is it? Col Tibetts is waiting for your decision...Launch or Scrub the Mission ?
Hell no they don’t deserve an apology. To this day Japan still refuses to even acknowledge the horrible things THEY did in the war, let alone apologize for them or make reparations. As someone else stated.. when you pick a fight and are rather brutal in your actions, you don’t get to cry about whatever consequences you received in order to make you stop.
When your enemy considers it an "honor" to die in a war that cannot be won. You have to do the unimaginable to change his mind. They were willing to send women and children into battle against men armed to the teeth with nothing more then bamboo spears. The cost paid was a dear one, but we changed his mind. Now, we are friends and allies. It's a strange world.
I’ve had a couple of personal links to the bombing of Japan. I used to make lots of technical marketing visits to Japan. Only once was WW II mentioned. After we checked in with the receptionist and were waiting for the customers to come from their offices, my Japanese colleague mentioned that the USAF had tried to bomb this building repeatedly without success. I think I just stood there with my mouth open. No appropriate response was available. It was Mitsubishi Gunma. Definitely my weirdest and most exclusive aviation experience. The other connection is that my father was in the Marine Second Division, scheduled to be in the first wave of the invasion of Japan. He believed that the atomic bombs saved his life.
@@GilmerJohn yeah. Apparently the Marine 2nd Div didn’t appear in the invasion plans after day 4. They didn’t say it was destroyed….. And my dad participated in the meat grinder campaign at the end of the Okinawa operation. He talked about seeing a dump truck load of dead Marines coming back as he was moving up. He talked about the night he spent outside the perimeter. And he talked about the nice old general who asked him general type questions about his family and how they were treating him. Simon Bolivar Buckner, just before he got blown away. My dad was with the same command company that got blown up in Lebanon many years later. I wonder if Buckner was visiting that company when he died.
Dad was on Tinian, a B 25 navigator. He would have been in that first wave too. No, the atomic bombs saved your father, Mr Gilmer's father, and my father. Which means they saved each of us too. I was in Hiroshima three years ago, and went to the memorial. There was a Japanese gentleman there, placards, signs, etc protesting how his mother was gravely injured during the raid, and how he was a "survivor" of the nuclear blast. I calmly went up to him, gaygin, round eye, Caucasian, and told him in English that I was a survivor too, how my father nearly died. The man was somewhat surprised, startled even that anyone would question his "victim" status, much less an American. He looked me straight in the eye, and bowed very deeply. No one in Japan ever bowed to me like he did. I gave him my America version of trying to politely bow my head to him. His action truly spoke mountains, apology accepted with respect.
"You don’t know the horrible aspects of war. I’ve been through two wars and I know. I’ve seen cities and homes in ashes. I’ve seen thousands of men lying on the ground, their dead faces looking up at the skies. I tell you, war is Hell!" William Tecumseh Sherman (8 February 1820 - 14 February 1891), United States Army general during the American Civil War.
Tokyo has hardly the only city to be attacked during LeMay's firebombing campaign. If you read the book Flyboys by James Bradley, in the back, on Page 289 of the first Back Bay paperback edition, You'll Find the list of Cities attacked, the percentage of destroyed area and a comparable United States city. To name the cities attacked: Kawasaki, Shimizu, Hiratsuka, Toyohashi, Hammatsu, Kofu with the worst amount of damage at 78%, Hitachi, Tokyo with 40% destroyed, Yokohama, Chiba, Nagoya, Gifu, Takahatsu, Himeji, Kobe, Osaka, Shimonoseki, Moji with the least damage at 24%, and Nagaoka. This does not refer to "area bombed or area damaged but to area obliterated, gone, burned, turned to ash." The nukes we dropped that many people consider the reason for Japan's capitulation were just the icing on the cake. So much more was destroyed in the fire bombing campaign. Japan wants an apology. What about all the POW's that were eaten? Fillets taken from thighs, and bandaged, so as to keep the prisoner alive until they needed more meat. Among many many other things. No apologies. War is a nasty thing. And not too many people Involved in that war are left alive anyway. It was a long time ago.
Iris Chang wrote the book, "The Rape of Nanking", that described the horrors imposed upon the Chinese people at the hands of the Japanese in the 1930s. She had wanted to do a lecture tour in Japan after the book's release which was mostly denied but a very few colleges permitted her to speak. She said that WWII was rarely mentioned during a student's education never mind the many atrocities committed by Japan. At one college she was asked, "So Japan and America fought a war? Who won?"
@@rudydedogg6505 Good grief. I didn’t know their denial went that far. I’ve spoken to American children that don’t know about the moon landings or the Vietnam war, but to not even know about your own country being in and defeated in a world war? Mind boggling.
The Doolittle Raid WAS effective for strategic reasons. It caused the Japanese to rethink their deployment and affected their offensive campaigns when they recalled forces from the Indian Ocean to beef up defenses of the home islands. It banished the myth of the impregnable home land. These were significant accomplishments for a mere sixteen bombers.
As others have said, your characterization of the Doolittle Raid is mistaken. I believe that we should have called Japan's bluff, and blockaded the country near the end. We had sufficient resources in the area, and the threat of kamikazes would rapidly diminish. It would have taken longer though. Japan accusing the US of war crimes is the height of hypocrisy.
Add to Paul's comment ... the idea of invasion or a blockade were both considered. While the cost of an estimated 1 million casualties for the invaders has been often mentioned, there are some who considered the effects on the Japanese both having far greater casualties on them. Of those the greater damage would have been by blockade but it would have taken years and that wasn't desired
It was obvious Japan was going to loose. But they didn't give up. So put your self in the shoes of the US generals. Our troops were dieing in the thousands with island hopping.
Like General Tecumseh Sherman said during his infamous "March to the Sea," "They voted for war, let's give them all they voted for." The U S motto during WWII "When in doubt WIN." Having spent a number of years working on the Nimitz Class aircraft carriers, CVN's, I enjoyed the motto emblazoned on their command ball caps: "90,000 tons of diplomacy"
That is so horrendously untrue and baseless it’s insane lmfao. The Rape of Nanking, probably their most infamous crime committed during WWII, took place in 1937?
Yeah this fire raid caused more casualties in Tokyo than the atomic bomb dropping on Hiroshima. Just to think about 20 years before Tokyo had been devastated by an earthquake and fires including fire tornadoes in the great Kanto earthquake.
Japanese Nationalism before and during WWII used the Bushido code to maintain a policy of not surrendering and pledging to fight till the end. While it is feasible that the fire bombing of Tokyo on March 9, 1945 was a war crime, we have to remember the the US was fighting an enemy that would not give up; even when they had no hope of winning. If that meant unleashing hell on Japan to end the war, then the ends justify the means.
Imperialism was common at the time. It wasnt viewed as evil action that must be stopped at all cost until it effected another country's assets. Do you think if Hawaii was invaded by foot soldiers and such by a military that americans would fight to the death to stop the invaders? What about if the invading military was a collection of countries that included pacific islanders who believed the US had acquired the hawaiian islands through forceful imperialism and that they must be stopped before the US includes more free islands into its rule of law? The bushido code is just a convenient excuse. The US very well had foot soldiers and pilots willing to sacrifice their life via suicidal methods that would be only designed to harm others.
I read the book 30 Seconds Over Tokyo. As the Doolittle Raiders were steam towards Japan they were briefed by an expert on Japan’s capital. He said if you got a good fire going that the Tokyo Fire Department could never put it out. This was in 1942…. years before the Great Fire Raid.
I first saw the 1944 movie by the same name when it first came out. I remember the drama when a bomber was about to be pushed overboard because it wouldn't start, but then it started and took off. Also, the embarrassment of a Chinese man who offered a pair of slippers to a downed airman before noticing that the airman had lost a leg. I don't know if any of that really happened.
The problem is that Japan's city design removed the innocence of the people in these areas. People lived clustered around the very factories where they worked, in this case factories that were directly contributing to the war effort. So the vast majority of people in these regions were, in fact, directly working in the military factories. Another thing to consider regarding this attack is the loss of knowledge and skilled manpower it inflicted. Even if the factories could be rebuilt, all the trained workers, and often the only people who knew how to make certain parts, perished in the attacks. There's literally no way to come back from such an attack.
As Sherman said, "War is hell." Those civilizations who selfishly start wars should be made to pay for allowing themselves to be lead into them. Regarding the fire bombing of Tokyo, another saying comes to mind, "All is fair in love and war." As far as I know, Japan never apologized for Pearl Harbor. Regardless, there will never be an apology for Tokyo.
I worked in a warehouse in Yokuska Japan as a military dependent in high school. One morning as I reported to work the older, WWII age workers were huddled outside talking excitedly and looking at their watches. I asked the Japanese foreman, a young guy, what was going on. He dead pan explained they were counting down the minutes till the moment of attack at Pearl Harbor. They don’t think there’s anything to apologize for for Pearl Harbor and besides we “made” them attack by embargoing resources they needed for their empire ambitions. It’s our fault.
Anytime I hear someone from Japan complain about anything that happened in WWII, I ask them if any of it would have happened if it had not been for Pearl Harbor.
According to post-war analysis, the Tokyo fire bombing, technically, did not cause a firestorm. For a true firestorm, it has to generate winds to feed it, from all directions. The prevailing winds at the time of the raid prevented this from occurring. A minor point, I agree. I don't expect those carrying out the raid or those on the ground would have noticed the difference, but worth recording, I think.
The fires as I understood them were due to houses and structures made almost exclusively from wood and those structures were built very close together. There was literally no escaping the fires. Robert Morgan, pilot of the famed "Memphis Belle", later flew B-29s after his tour in England ended. He wrote in his autobiography that they would fly at low altitudes at night to drop incendiaries on Japanese targets. As they didn't require oxygen they left their masks off and cracked open vents in the cockpit for fresh air. He said that once over the target, areas nearby were already ablaze and the smell of burnt flesh filled the cockpit. He wrote that whenever he smelled meat cooking on a backyard grill or from a BBQ restaurant he was reminded of those raids. I got to meet him about a year before he passed and I have an autographed copy of his book. RIP Col. Morgan.
No. The US should not be held accountable for the bombing of Tokyo (or any other city for that matter). The US was trying to put an end to the war, and Japan was refusing to capitulate. The only thing left to do was to continue with the war effort and hope that Japan would surrender before the US was forced to invade the home islands, which everyone knew would be very costly. It's such a shame that the leadership in Japan was so stubborn and adamant, even when the rest of the world knew it was over for them. It was like that in Germany too. Germany never considered surrendering until the Allies and Soviets met at the Oder River on 25 April 1945.
Your contention the Doolittle raid was a “massive waste of resources” is contrary to the opinion of many historians. Japan significantly altered its plans for the war as a result of the raid. Which weakened their offensive capabilities. It also greatly improved the moral and confidence of the American people and the allies as a whole. Also, you give full credit to the British for the fire storming of Dresden. It was a combines US/British operation.
Japan had been offered many opportunities to surrender but because of pride & stupidity, they forced our hand by not believing that we either wouldn't or couldn't....sadly, they found out differently. A huge & grateful salute to ALL our US service men & women that served then & now....esp. those that have given it all! May God bless them & give their souls His eternal rest!! ✝️
The Doolittle raid had two objective-both of which surpassed the objectives! The first was to show the folks at home in the US that we were doing something as the Japanese continued to invade and control almost all of East Asia. The second objective was to drive directly into the psyche of the Japanese. Since their first incursion of war, no one had ever been able to bring war to Japan itself. The Doolittle raid showed the people of Japan that the United States had NOT been crippled much less knocked out of the war. The US would strike down and there was more where that came from. A secondary win for the US was that since the planes had been launched from Aircraft Carriers, Yamamoto was able to persuade the War Council that a last, final destruction of those carriers must be carried out. The result of that was the rout of Japanese Carrier fleet at Midway. The consequences of the Doolittle raid were what allowed the war to turn in the US favor. Never underestimate what that raid accomplished!
The question "should the US be held accountable?" is absurd. Never. No apologies. No revisionist crap. The fact you even ask the question shows just how far we've drifted from those days of clarity. I fervently pray following generations never experience the desperation my father's generation endured. If they do, then they will learn the inanity of such questions.
I think many people, some historians included, miss the point of the Doolittle raid. It wasn't meant to cause much physical damage as it was intended to show the Japanese that they weren't protected from attack. It was meant to dispirit THEM while boosting allied moral. In that regard, it was a success.
Unless you were one of the 77 out of 80 that didnt survive
My father in-laws uncle was a Doolittle raider, he never came home from the war. The sad thing is most people have no idea about the Doolittle raid. And you are right it was all about opening their eyes to the fact we can get you on your home land.
@@reefermadnezz9819 also if you were part of the thousands of chinese civilians killed by the japanese in punishment for helping the Dolittle raiders.
Something that is not widely known, but the Japanese reaction to the Doolittle Raid included a delay in switching over to a new version of their Naval code. Since the US had had much success deciphering the old code, a switch to a new one would have meant the US would have lost much of their ability to read Japan's messages in April/May of 1942. That was exactly when the US figured out the Japanese plans, schedule and targets for BOTH Operation MO in the Coral Sea AND Operation MI aimed at Midway.✌💯🖖
A. 77 of the men didn't die on the raid or not return on the raid. There was something around 12 that died and a few more that spent a lot of time in camps.
B. It was absolutely a moral victory. They thought they were untouchable. They had to be shown that they went the only ones able to reach an enemies shores. It was truly the beginning of the end for the Japanese in the war.
C. It's unfortunate what they did to the Chinese that assisted or were just in the area of where the men landed. But that's not the fault of the Allies or Americans. That's like an abuser saying "you made me do it" they were responsible for their own actions and war crimes.
D. Every last one of those guys have BALLS OF STEEL. That was a suicide mission . And they handled it like heros and most of all if you listen to these men speak in interviews they are beyond humble .
As a child of a survivor of the Bataan Death March, I have never had a problem with any bombings of Japan. They brought it upon themselves. Their heinous actions throughout the Pacific to all non-Japanese people by the Japanese military made anything they received to be earned by their entire society.
Years later, I became a contractor for a few months working for the Japanese Government. I told my father before I traveled to Japan. His reaction, “Good, get some money from them.” He went on to say that the bulk of the Japanese people were quite nice and polite. His further statements can be summed up by another survivor’s words. The other guy owned one of the largest Toyota dealerships on the east coast. He personally traveled to Japan annually. He said he loved the Japanese people, but if he ever saw particular individuals on the street in Tokyo, he would kill them on the spot.
Japan has never truly apologized for starting the war. The US has no reason to reciprocate until they do.
They slaughtered millions of Chinese and other civilians. So brought the punishment on themselves. However as you noticed the Japanese people (I have had the privilege to work with) are very kind, friendly and considerate!
It’s happening all over again? or is about to!
What will it take for us to all understand, war is Hell,, after World War II,Korea, and Vietnam, It is the devils racket, The greed of man, our disregard for life and all things bestowed upon us. The greatest thing we have is peace but we won’t fight for it or do we.
When we go to war
@@SwanOnChips ❤
It was not earned by the entire society, that is sociopathic thinking. If you aim a weapon at an entire crowd to deal with a single wrong doer you are no better than they are. The Japanese society was raised to worship the emperor as a God on earth, the society in general was lied to by the military who were behind all the atrocities, on a daily basis, much as putin's Russia is now. They were led to believe the allies were murdering animals with no conscience. The society in general were decent people, it was the fanatical higher classes and military. You my friend are a piece of feces if you think an entire population needs to be punished for the actions of the military. Its a shame the society in general of any nation involved in war has to bear the brunt of their military leaders crimes.
The US Never apologized for wiping out native presence in most of the states.
Your father had it coming when he was stationed as a colonial troop in a distant land.
I can personally attest to the great effect the raid had on US Military morale as I was a newspaper boy selling papers in front of the 3 boot mess halls at the Marine Corps training base in San Diego Cal . When they finished breakfast and began to exit the mess halls, I held up a paper and yelled Dolittle bombs Tokyo!! And all hell broke loose, hundreds of Marines swamped me and my 200 papers were gone in a minute, they were yelling at the top of their lungs and jumping up and down and hugging each other , something I will never forget!
Wow, interesting to hear from someone who was around at the time.
This was not the Doolittle raid
@@wilsonpickett3881 Did you not hear the narrator take a crap on the Doolittle raid at the beginning?
My father was a member of a fighter squadron on Iwo Jima at the time. I had an Uncle who had fought from Africa through Italy and France only to find he would be shipped to the Pacific to fight Japanese. Dad's youngest brother was on a carrier that was bombed and kamikazed, but after repairs was headed for Japan, Two cousins were with him. Mom's 3 brothers were already in the pacific fighting in the Philippines and Okinawa. They would all be headed there to invade! They all were absolutely certain the bombing of Japan's cities - especially the atomic bombs, saved their lives! Japan started the war with merciless bombing. The B-29s gave them back the Hell Fires they had earned - simple as that.
Nanking payback
Until the Japanese Government recognizes and teaches its school children about the Rape of Nanking, I might consider bearing responsibility for the things we had to do to end the war. Even the “night of black snow” nor the atomic attack on Hiroshima, made the Japanese government willing to end the war or protect its common citizens. The Military Junta and The Emperor have never been held to account for their horrendous war crimes.
Nothing happened at Nanking it's all communist propaganda.
More people were killed by Japanese bayonets than the firebombs and nukes COMBINED. 250,000 Chinese men, women, and children were butchered in reprisal for the Doolittle raid alone.
well, 'toejam tojo' was HUNG
Then enshrined in the Yasukuni shrine that honors Japanese war dead. The Japanese government to this day whitewashes the atrocities committed in the name of the emperor.
As for Communist propaganda. The massacre at Nanjing was well documented by the International War Crimes Tribunal for the Far East. So there is that.
Does that apply to the murders of African Americans by White America?
The Doolittle raid resulted in Yamamoto being forced to retain a percentage of his naval vessels around the home island for fear of further American attacks on the hitherto safe home island. That’s a success in anybody’s book.
It's also said that the raid was the reason that Yamamoto was given the go ahead for the Midway campaign, so as to expand the Japanese perimeter. So, one could make the argument that the Doolittle raid gave way to the Midway failure, which was the downfall of Japan. They essentially lost their fleet there...
planes too
@@frankpinmtl Indeed as many of the Japanese intelligence officers just could not believe that the planes took off from carriers, even though they had reports of just that.
@@EarleALLEN More so, it was the experienced pilots that they couldn't afford to lose.
As was shown evident during the battle for Okinawa, Imperial Japan's military leadership was turning its country's entire population, men, women and children, all into military combatants. Imperial Japan's leadership wanted their entire island to be a fortress of no-surrender fighters willing to kill as many of the invading enemy as possible before giving up their lives for the emperor. Japan's military doctrine, at the time, had decreed that there were no Japanese civilians, only Japanese warriors. Imperial Japan's leadership were the true cause of the country's suffering. Make them apologize.
Putin would have used nukes by now if he didn't made an excuse that hes liberating ukraine people
Japan has refused to apologize for virtually any atrocities they committed. And when it was finally discovered/acknowledged that the midget sub meant to attack inside Pearl Harbor was actually sunk a couple hours before the attack but after the aircraft had already launched, they tried to claim WE started the war!
I’m glad they’ve recovered, I’m glad they are an ally once again, but I’m always apprehensive when they or Germany begin re-armaments.
Sky Den- Agreed - they started the whole damn thing anyway... Their biggest booboo was picking a fight with a country that knows how to produce weapons and is familiar with the correct application thereof.
@@soonerfrac4611 a big difference between Germany and Japan (today) is that Germany actively teaches the facts of the events, including the atrocities committed by their country's government, of WWII to their children/students in order to prevent a similar future. In comparison, Japan still refuses, for the most part, to teach the complete truth about their country's involvement. I've actually watched a UA-cam video by a Japanese youngster (late teens/early twenties) who did a reaction video to Oversimplified's WWII video. The young, Japanese UA-camr's surprise of the facts of the events is very telling of the country's stance/perception of WWII events. It's quite tragic to say the least.
You are a perfect exemplar of the doctrine of "American Exceptionalism" aren't you?
For a Citizen's of a Country that still calls for the arrests of (and rightly so) of Yugoslavian War Criminals, yet still refuses to recognise the jurisdiction of the very Court's that handle those cases, it would be your own Country that would be made to answer to, should ever there be a Government in Tokyo willing enough to file a complaint against you (highly unlikely) you and others from the U.S like you, will remain steadfast in the idea that somehow, you're "a Country that respects the rule of law, and was one of the main Countries at the end of WW2 to frame the laws allowing International Court's to be established, your own Country has never been able to get it ratified by your own law maker's.
Must be nice to feel the "exception to the rule" all the time, rather than have them apply in equal measure to you as well.
I met a Marine in the late 60s who was involved in the island hopping and was happy to be alive. But he said word was going around that when they invaded the Japanese homeland, the casualties would be enormous with as many as a million US soldiers lost. So when the bombs were dropped and the Japanese surrendered they finally thought they would survive.
There's no doubt it was tragic and obscene destruction of life and property, but it followed after numerous atrocities committed by Japan beginning in the late 1930's with it's invasion and occupation of China, followed by SE Asia, New Guinea and Pacific islands. Both Japan and Germany during WWII were cases of their citizens believing the absurdities coming from their leaders which eventually led them to accepting and assisting in the atrocities committed by those leaders. This should be a warning and lesson for all Americans to heed in 2022 lest we also begin to believe absurdities from power-hungry politicians and parties. History is full of uncomfortable and even horrible acts and facts which need to be taught, and not suppressed because it's inconvenient for political ideologies and objectives.
Yes the Japanese soldiers were despicable.
Did that give us the right to kill their women and children?
Absolutely, they bayoneted hundreds of thousands of babies.
The Japanese conduct has nothing to do with the ethical nature here.
The integration of military targets into the midst of the city did, and the fire attack was a horrible but necessary way to bring it all offline at once.
Precision destruction and continued repair would leave them useful.
The human cost was awful, but wasn't enough to stop the raid.
It was retribution for the war crimes committed by Jap troops, and encouraged by their leaders. Payback is a bitch, but fully justified.
Yup, if we don't stop these republikkkans in their tracks, who knows what will happen. Republikkkans admire trump, like the Germans did with Hitler. People who burn books, will soon burn people.
With the bombing of Japan, once again the ugliness of war was demonstrated but to call the bombings a war crime is simply unwarranted. The responsibility of the Commander In Chief is to minimize the exposure of those serving in the military to danger. An invasion of Japan would have caused millions of casualties (both US and Japanese) and prolonged the war possibly by years. A blockade of Japan would also have likely caused huge casualties due to starvation and disease. The dropping of the atomic bombs was, in fact, the least inhumane alternative for ending the war for both the US and the Japanese.
Let us not forget just how inhumane conditions were in the Japanese POW camps where starvation, torture and disease killed a great many of their prisoners. They had a right to expect the US and our allies to end the war as soon as possible.
Exactly this👆
You should add cannibalism of US POWs by the Japanese.
I think you meant to say, most humane alternative for ending the war for both the US and the Japanese.
Bataan death march, etc.
@@jonathankenton7182 And the millions of Chinese civilians murdered by the Japanese. And the Korean women forced into sex slavery by the Japanese. And the Chinese victims of the gruesome medical experiments performed by Shiro Ichii, who unlike his German counterpart, Josef Mengele, is almost completely unknown and who, like Mengele, was never punished for his crimes.
I don’t consider myself an expert in WW2 history, but I am in the ‘no apology to Japan is necessary’ camp. Canadian military fought the Japanese military from ‘39/40 through to the end. Too many stories of inhumane activities of the Japanese military perpetrated against POWs and civilians within the empire’s sphere. The Emperor wouldn’t surrender. I don’t think the allies had a choice.
Japan got what they deserved but I also believe it is a wonderful thing that we are friends now and wish good things for them. Bull Halsey said early in the war that when the war was done Japanese would only be spoken in hell. This pretty much happened. My father was in the Pacific and was in a troop ship waiting to invade Japan the the atom bomb was dropped. Likely I would not exist without that. We expected one million American casualties . Based on Okinawa that would imply many millions of Japanese casualties are dropping the bomb saved more Japanese lives by giving them a reason to surrender. Of course the attack by the Soviet Union helped convince them as well
the only apology necessary is the Japanese Government promising Japanese citizens that the war was Wrong and that they will never be used in this criminal manner again
while I agree the Japanese, as aggressors, can't complain about the result of their own actions, I always felt targeting the working class areas to be a cynical move. I have always thought if they had targeted the wealthy areas, especially the emperor, surrender might have been more forthcoming- by who ever took over from the emperor's charred corpse.
@@roberts5539 The emperor was God to them. It would have made them even more hysterical about killing Americans and preventing invasion.
Wars aren’t to be apologized for or forgiven; they’re to be won or lost, then moved on from.
My father was a Marine , still fighting on Iwo Jima when this raid took place. Some of the shot up B 29 s landed there on a newly repaired, captured airstrip. He was guarding some Japanese prisoners whose eyes grew wide when these enormous birds came into land. They must have known they were on the losing end.
Hi Brian, did you know that the Japanese planned to drop bubonic plague on Iwo Jima? And on the Phillippines? And on San Diego? They had already used it in China and killed hundreds of thousands of people.
Had sorta the same effect as when Goring saw the Mustangs over Berlin...
@@vintagevmax2410 and the P-38's
Turkey planned to enter WWII on Germany's side in 1942 and invade the USSR. But by this time British Avro Lancasters started to make shuttle raids on Romanian oil fields taking off in Britain and landing in the USSR. A group of British bombers landed on Turkinsh territory by mistake. Turks were amazed by these planes. The planes Turkey had at that time were primitive and close to those of WWI. Turkish government decided to postpone its military action against Soviets and Allies till 1943. But in 1943 happened Stalingrad and Kursk and Turks thanked God for not interfering ))))
During the Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbor the Americans captured one of their midget submarine crew: Ensign Sakamoto. As POW #1 he was flown to San Diego. He was amazed - not even the Imperial Japanese Navy Anchorage or the Construction Yards in Hiroshima had so many cranes, warehouses, dry docks and piers. He was put in a private guarded railroad car and journeyed across America. He stared at the huge empty spaces and the crammed bustling cities. He crossed Kansas & Oklahoma staring at endless fields of wheat, corn, oats and barley. He stared at the thousands of head of beef cattle, pigs and sheep. The automobile factories in Detroit made his jaw drop. So did the steel mills of Pittsburgh. The endless lines outside of the Recruiting Offices astonished him. He began to weep. “What’s wrong?” asked his guard. Sakamoto looked at him. “This war is already over. Japan cannot win.” The Marine looked at him and spoke through the interpreter: “You should have thought of that before you attacked us.”
While I enjoy the channel's efforts, a bit more attention to factual scholarship as opposed to emotional positioning would serve the channel well. Dolittle's raid was never intended to be a great tactical strike. It was intended to rattle the high command in Japan resulting in a reallocation of resources as America prepared to island hop. In that respect the raid was a success. Suggesting apologizing for the conduct of a war today with little appreciation for the state of affairs at the time does not speak well for the understanding required to make such demands.
I'm here for the DARK effects brah
@@GodKing804 Im here for the Dark Pronouncing of Words ... They have a hard time with words it seems . Cylinder for example .
That was eloquent …. Very
As was the bombing of Berlin by the British. However, not only did it make an ass of Goering, who stated that not one bomb would fall on Berlin, but it also helped end the Battle of Britain. Hitler was so angry about the bombing that he decided to concentrate the bombing to London so gave the RAF time to strengthen and organise for the rest of the War. WW2 bombers were not capable of precision bombing. Only the Mosquito came close with it's high speed and low flying. How can the fire bombing of Tokyo be regarded as a war crime compared to the two atomic bomb drops. Also, to defeat Germany, the Allies had to bomb German cities with 1000 bomber raids to help bring the Nazis to their knees.
John Weeks is correct. The inane suggestion that America should apologize shows some of the serious flaws in this channel's understanding of history. Also, the monotone delivery and mispronouncing of words is amateur. It's time for me to unsubscribe.
So, a personal story: My dad was part of the occupation force after the war ended and viewed the destruction. He said there was a 14 mile stretch from Tokyo to Yokohama where there was nothing left except for the occasional chimney. He made friends with Japanese people, one of whom had lived in that area before the war. The civilians were routinely drilled on preparing to fight bombing. The alarms would sound, and every good Japanese homeowner would stand at attention outside his house with a bucket of sand in one hand and a bucket of water in the other. The generals would parade through the streets in their cars. This man overheard one general say to another, "As if that would stop it...". The next day he sold his house and moved away to the mountains. The night of this raid he could read newspaper by the light of the fire 26 miles away.
My dad had a very similar story. He was stationed on Tinian at the end, a B-25 navigator. 21 years old and an officer. Like a good 21 year old, he slept through the nuking of Hiroshima. Apparently he traveled extensively through Southern Japan after the surrender. He told us long ago that he saw no difference between the destruction of Tokyo and that of Hiroshima, except that Hiroshima was only one plane and two observers, and a single bomb, Tokyo was an all day affair. This video kind of put that into my perspective. As for an apology for the American "atrocity". First, yes, it was an atrocity. One we never wanted to commit, one that was forced upon us. America would have been very happy to lie fat, dumb, happy, and at peace. We didn't ask for Pearl Harbor, nor Hitler and Mussolini's declaration of war on us. And the atrocity of Tokyo still was not enough to end the war, and essentially assured that my father would have been killed early on in the invasion of Japan, had Truman not made the decision that saved his life, my life and that of my brother. If you don't want atrocities to occur, don't start a war that you can't finish. History is always written by the victors, the losers, if they are lucky, only get to right a footnote.
@@davidh9844 Very nicely stated, and I am glad you and your brother are here.
@@davidh9844 I agree with everything you say, except for the word 'atrocity'. The atrocity would have been for America not to have opposed the Japanese and NAZIs. The Rape of Nanking was an atrocity. The bombing of Japan was terrible, horrific, and tragic. It was not an atrocity. The Japanese killed some 20 million people, mostly civilians, before the bombing. They killed 0 people after the bombing.
@@davidh9844 My Father was drafted in July 1945 and was in basic training when the war ended. He figured the atomic bombs probably saved his life. Invading Japan would have been horrific, for both sides.
It can be said that all war is atrocious. If we, as a human race want to stop such atrocities, we must end all war.
I think most viewers who criticize the attack as a war crime are missing a crucial element of the situation. Any war materiel manufacturer is considered a legitimate military target, according the both the Geneva Convention (which the Japanese government did NOT sign) and the Hague Convention (which Japan did sign). After the first effective B-29 attacks on Japanese industry, the Japanese government began breaking up the factories, sending individual drill presses, lathes, and other pieces of manufacturing equipment into the yards and gardens of the workers' homes, in what were known as "shadow factories". This had two unintended consequences. The first was quickly obvious: manufacturing efficiency fell by more than 50% because everything was so scattered. But worse: that move effectively made the home of every single Japanese factory worker a legitimate military target, under the rules of the Hague Convention on Warfare their government had signed and ratified, so many years before.
In other words, the decisions of the Japanese government brought LEGAL unrestricted warfare upon its own citizenry. 😭😭😭
Human shields even if that wasn’t the specific intent. Good points. Thanks
Excellent research, valid points all
The Japs perfected WAR CRIMES....
Making it LEGAL as you claim DOES NOT make it moral, and that supercedes all this BS that many seem to dismiss. You and others seem to forget that Gods law is the higher authority that trumps lowly man.
@@rogerfreas4139 It appears the bible teaches immorality? Countryman or other men - no difference.
Perhaps this could aptly be expressed by the people of Nanking?
"And a man who injures his countryman - as he has done, so it shall be done to him [namely,] fracture under/for fracture, eye under/for eye, tooth under/for tooth. Just as another person has received injury from him, so it will be given to him." (Lev. 24:19-21
My father was a Marine from 44 to 64, served in the Pacific theaters as well as my Uncle a Maj in the Marines. They both survived the wars. My father gave little details about his war time experiences In WW II and Korea. He did say that The people's mentality of Hirohito as their Devine ruler, the Imperial Japanese military's horrific war crimes across the Pacific during WW II, brought the wrath of GOD almighty down upon themselves. He thanked God he survived and lost many friends in that conflict. He had no qualms with the Tokyo raids or the Atomic weapons used to bring that nation to its knees. He stated that if they were to have to assault the Island of Japan, millions of allies would have been sacrificed. Japan was brainwashed by a false and evil ideology, that destroyed so much more humanity than the loss they suffered in the last months of the war in 1945. In my mind, Hirohito should NOT have been spared either.
Dead right about Hirohito. But if you control the Emperor then you control the Japanese people. General Macarthur knew this was vital to stop any partisan activity and pacify Japan completely. Sometimes you have to swallow a bitter pill.
I believe we should have erased the Japanese the same way they would have done to every place they invaded if they could have.
@@dp-sr1fd "In my mind, Hirohito should NOT have been spared either."
That's bonkers. Plain bonkers. You wanted to humiliate them and make the country unmanageable? Yeah, you should have done that.
After the 1st WW, the German emperor was deposed, and his now former empire was thoroughly humiliated. That didn't help much during the Interwar Period, did it? That rather gave some traction to a certain former corporal named Adolf Hitler. You know the rest.
And Houston should've let the RoT soldiers waste Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna(so the surrender could've been rendered null and void)
Good stuff.
We were nearing the end of WW-2, started by the Japanese on 12-7-1941. As an Army helicopter pilot of the Vietnam War, I can tell you war is hell. All I can say is pay back is hell. I personally believe the firebombing was totally justified for no other reason than the Batan Death March and the treatment of POWs.
Thank for your service in Vietnam.
erm 1941? sorry to tell you but ww2 started on 1st september 1939 by Germany as a service man you should know this little fact, you lot were late again.
@@johnhall9476 he was talking about the day america got involved in the war. still you dont have to be a prick when you try to correct him right?
@@lanceamadantebonife3987 Remember that Ford and Preston Bush were big Nazi allies
@@johnhall9476 he was talking about December 7 1941 better learn how to read. Before you open your loud mouth
Great topic and video! Gen X'er here and in high school, I had a history teacher, "Colonel Frost", who took part in flying this particular mission! He flew B-17's, B29's, in WWII and early B-52's in the Cold War and later worked in Intelligence during the Vietnam War! When our class started covering WWII. He always told us that he flew a firebombing mission over Tokyo in a B-29 that resulted in more lost of life than the two atomic bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, COMBINED! Much respect to Colonel Frost (RIP) and in the late 80's he had to be in his late 60's or early 70's when he taught that class but he was great! He even taught AP History and invited me to be in that class, as a Sophomore!
Brian, thank you for sharing this. These glimpses of the people who fought or supported the war effort are priceless. And you certainly lucked out to have had Col. Frost as your teacher.
I met like you several 'Frosts' (uncles and renters who stayed in our home in New Haven) from the 60-ties who were there. Omaha Beach, Philippine Islands, Patton 3rd Army tanker, all gone now, among the bravest generation since the time of our 1860's generation who fought in the Civil War, I believe. They made me want to be a soldier so I did my time and survived some things like they did. Even more brave soldiers can claim their honors and sacrifices from the rotten Vietnam War. Many of these survivors roared backward triumphantly and heroically.
We were lucky to still have folks like that around for our generation.
I had a teacher of the same caliber,but was in Europe,now we have educators who want to teach pronouns and discuss their sexuality with students,this nation has a huge culture problem that we may not be able to overcome
Awesome luck to have a teacher like that! I had several. In the European Theater and China Burma & Pacific Theater.
“It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.”
Robert E. Lee
It was terrible and terribly necessary. Unconscionable and inevitable. It was a necessity of war, a shame that shows us how terrible we can be to one another. Not a “War crime”, but an action of need in a time of war. When the enemy chooses to fight to the last man, the only path to victory is to take his last man.
Lee said that while watching Union Troops throw themselves at the Stone Wall at the Battle of Marye's Heights in Fredericksburg. Knowing what was coming while watching the Union Army come across the Rappahanock, he said, "I wish those people would go away and leave us alone." Lee often referred to the Union Army as "Those People." Another aside... only one Cadet has graduated from West Point with ZERO Demerits.Only one.
Sadly, "War is cruelty. You can't refine it."
William T. Sherman
"Highly ineffective"? I'd say you were wrong. There were two main goals for Doolittle's raid: show Japan they were not invulnerable to attack, and to boost morale within the United States and her armed forces. Both objectives were successfully met.
EDIT That's a pretty simplistic view as I left out this leading to Midway as others have pointed out. I'd say the outcome of that battle was positive.
This channel always includes incorrect info even about topics that are fairly well known. I don’t get it.
@@ripwednesdayadams Generally speaking, I would consider it their bias.
'Massive Waste of Resources...'
Two carriers, Hornet and Enterprise , operating within the range of the Japanese fishing fleet tripwire line adds up to an immediate and ongoing risk to submarine and ASUW counter bombing attack.
Which drove the raid to an earlier than planned start and ended up costing most of the bombers their safe landing options to instead ditch and be captured or killed as the loss of elite crews for no real gain.
Had we lost this carrier force, a month before Coral Sea and two months before Midway, we could have easily ended up extending the war in the Pacific past the point where Nishina would have fielded usable nukes.
There were valid targets to hit which were much less dangerous. Circling round Australia and hitting the Japanese oil facilities in the DEI.
Hitting the in-port IJN fleets in Singapore.
Bombing the major fighter fields of Formosa and Hainan.
Todtfahrt 'Death Rides' which unduly risk assets for Killroy Was Here showboating are to be avoided.
From the 1920s and specifically Fleet Problem IX, we knew that carriers often survived less than a day in littoral waters as enemy landbased airpower had more range, more airfields to start from and a general advantage of time window in which the carrier had to remain in a given area, to successfully recover and cycle her smaller air wing.
The best way to offset this was to hit here and.....................................here. So as to push-pull make it uncertain where the raids were originating as each CVBG distracted/decoyed the enemy from the other. Unfortunately, this also doubles the number of enemy surface craft, subs and ASST scout bombers which can find each deck.
The Doolittle Raid was exceptionally foolish.
@@xyz-hj6ul looking back from an armchair warrior point of view, it would certainly seem so. But the fact remains, it came off, even though not as entirely planned. I wouldn't want to travel back in time to change the outcome.
I've recently completed Tower of Skulls by Richard B Frank and the Pacific War trilogy by Ian W Toll. The destruction, ruthless and wonton killing, and the reckless and hegemonic campaign across the Pacific and the Asian continent by the Japanese earned for the Japanese people every ounce of destruction heaped upon them to compel them to stop. The routine bayonetting of civilians and combatants to "blood" their soldiers was multiplied by the millions across China, Indonesia, and the Philippines. Japanese cruelty toward prisoners was unmatched. The Japanese were likewise cruel to each other, their training often causing injuries and death to their own soldiers. In barely a generation, the Japanese military known for chivalry and fair dealing in Peking (1900) and Russia (1905), had been transformed by ideology into a murderously brutal force capable of any savagery. Americans harp on colonialism and racism, but no racism compares to the beliefs Japanese held toward all other Asians in their world from the 1920s-1940's-Non-Japanese were barely human. Millions of Chinese, Vietnamese, Burmese, Indonesians, Australians, Filipinos, British, French, and Americans died at their hands.
Malcolm Gladwell has treated the obsession with "precision" bombing very well in his book, the Bomber Mafia. Succinctly, the two beliefs that were utterly false and absurd drove the creation of the Strategic arm of the Army Air Force. The beliefs: 1-The bombers will always get through. 2-The Norden Bombsight could place a bomb in a pickle barrel from 10,000 ft. Both were ridiculous delusions, but well-funded delusions that drove the creation of B-17/B-24 Armadas, followed by the highly flawed B-29. The truth was well known. The bombers, at great loss of life (More airman over Germany than Marines in the entire war) and material cost, couldn't hit a damn thing. The move by the RAF and LeMay was just a too-late admission of reality. While the fire storms and two nukes created the perception in leadership needed to bring about surrender in Japan, it is true that Japan was failing fast. The Toll vol 3 has an interesting insight-The modest mining campaign against Japan's home water and approaches caused massive dislocation, starvation, and loss of production. Had the B-29s dropped mines instead of fire-bombs, or both, the war may have ended months earlier. [The main contribution of the Strategic Bombing campaign, according to Albert Speer, was the need to defend the Reich with thousands of 88mm Flak guns that could have been used against Russian tanks. Dozens of divisions of Flak troops could have been used elsewhere to fight the Allies.]
All this and still it took the use of the super bombs, one bomb dropped from one plane out of a flight of some five or six planes, twice, and the Soviets overrunning Manchukuo, to finally force the surrender.
The wide scale starvation of the Japanese population was averted because there was still a functioning government bureaucracy to administer the distribution of foodstuffs provided and carried by the American logistical networks.
@Craig Schneider. Well stated.
Weill said Sir.
I wish every numb skull who compares the U.S. to Japan in war atrocities would take the time to learn something before spouting off on these things or at least read your comment. After all the fires were out and the dust settled we treated the Japanese WAY BETTER than they did anyone else or even deserved. I say Made in America. Tested on Japan. And though any loss of innocent life is not good I don't feel sorry for the people of Japan or Germany for the wrath they brought upon themselves. Not one bit.
My father was one of the six survivors of the Sandakan Death March in North Borneo
He testified at the War Crimes Tribunals at Rabaul and Tokyo
One point that was glossed over very quickly was that it was estimated at that time there would be over 3 million Allied casualties if they were required to invade the main island of Japan. And this bombing was looked at as a better them than us scenario.
One of my history teachers in High School had participated in the island-hopping campaign in the south Pacific (witnessed the brutality of the Japanese soldiers) and was being prep'd for this invasion. When this history was discussed in class his only comment was, he wished they had dropped 50 atomic bombs instead of 2.
that's true. Starting a war is one thing, attrocities they committed yet another. Everywhere they went the Japanese were killing civilians with bayonets......read Manilla. They needlessly killed 100,000 non-combatant civilians and raped every woman from 6 to 80 multiple times.
And this author even admitted the Japanese had moved their war machine building operations to areas surrounded by civilians.
Yeah, the US Army expected so many casualties from the invasion of Japan that the Purple Heart medals they ordered in expectation of them are still being used today.
My father was slated to be infantry at the tip of the spear on the planned D-Day. A few months later he was in charge of a small detachment demilitarizing the very defenses he had been trained to attack. His considered opinion, based on his knowledge of both sides, was that he would have been killed or gravely wounded. Now my family has connections with Japan and Japanese Americans dating back to just after WWI. I have Japanese relatives. I still have no regrets for this bombing.
Giangrecos "Hell to Pay" is a terrifying look at that invasion - he takes the allied invasion plans, compares them to the actual Japanese defences and plans (they knew where the allies would land, they had studied allied methods) and factors in the actual weather over those dates.
It was going to be a lot worse than you think.
My father was a Navy Corpsman training for the invasion of the mainlands. After the surrender, his CO advised them, that his unit would have been in the first wave.
My uncle Bob was one of those Marines who fought his way across the Pacific in WWII... I accepted his word that whatever happened to end the war was well deserved by the Japanese. I always considered that man a hero.... and he explained that all of the real Heros were buried over there
Thank you to your Uncle Bob and all the other Marines who gave or risked their lives so we can be free.
...YOU SUMMED IT UP PERFECTLY-(!)
@@daleburrell6273 thank you. My uncle Bob was a hellofa great guy.
They had MANY times to surrender ,but did not.... As my Dad used to say, the reaped what they had sown. Too bad it took some atomic heat to take the fight out of them, but so be it. Otherwise ,they WOULD have fought to the last person.. God bless your Uncle Bob. ;)
@@boruff68 ...THAT'S THE TRUTH-(!)
As a veteran myself, I understand why the raid took place and why the Americans will not apologize. In my opinion, the raid caused the relocation of many of the enemy's planes to defend the homeland. Thus, we were able to take an additional island or two without having to worry about attacks from the air. On the other hand, we were faced with the Kamikaze strikes at every campaign after that raid.
The Doolittle raid wasn't a waste of resources as it made Japan change their tactics that didn't go well for them, coral sea, midway, ect....
Yep. The Doolittle Raid made the Japanese worried of the US aircraft carrier potential which almost directly led to them trying to eliminate that threat at the Battle of Midway
The big victory would have never happened at midway.
no it Didlittle...🥶
@@banmadabon i see what you did there
If you pick a fight you lose the ability to pick the consequences. War is a horrible thing but it's much worse when you inflict it on the innocent, particularly those who have remained neutral. No apology, no regret.
I mean, it's reasonable to regret that it had to be done. There were small children and babies who's last moments of their short lives on this earth were the experience of being simultaneously suffocated by the lack of oxygen and burning alive. So that's not super great.
In response to activists requesting the US apologize for war crimes, Japan should probably apologize for the genocidal invasion of China and Korea first. At least the US doesn't deny they performed the firebombing of cities. Japan still has statues for people who performed experiments on Chinese prisoners.
@@talldude1412 I regret that the Japanese forced us to take such drastic action. I don't regret that we took that action. It was a solid decision, it achieved the objectives and so many more, it sped the end of the war at a cost that was sustainable and ludicrously one sided. So yeah, no apologies.
@@talldude1412 Took the words right out of my mouth. Germany has apologized and tried to make amends as best one can for the Nazi atrocities. Ukraine has done some serious reckoning with its own anti-Semitic past. But Japan, nothing. It's a very different culture. And your point is equally valid for the atomic bombs.
Sometimes peace is a worse option than war because it involves far more suffering over a longer time and is immensely demoralizing. We need a war now!
@@mundanestuff I mean, it definitely destroyed industry and workers, but did it hasten the end of the war? Strategic bombing didn't make anyone quit in WWII, usually it hardened resolve, see the UK and Germany, until the atomic bombs at least. Ukraine is a good example in modern times. Russia can lob 40yr old missiles at cities good for a cep of over 100m and Ukrainian morale doesn't appear to be flagging at all. If anything they are more determined by them.
It was the quickest way to end the war. My grandfather fought in the Pacific theater, he told me the Japanese would a different enemy. The A-Bomb saved more lives, then it killed on both sides. If the Allies invaded mainland Japan it would have been more horrific
ALLLLL correct. every word from SOMEONE WHO WAS THERE, not the
pathetic 'arm chair hindsight experts'
Maybe....the real reason though was because the US was afraid japan would surrender to the Russians who would have been to Japan first if we stayed conventional. That was the rush...
In addition to the obvious rationale of pushing Japan to surrender, there was an additional, perhaps more important, reason. The existence of the atomic bomb was known to the Soviets. It was inevitable that they would also possess the technology within a few years. It was also clear that there was going to be a confrontation of some sort between the Soviets and the west.
Had the U.S. not used the bomb on Japan, or had they done as some suggested and made a demonstration drop in a visible but relatively unpopulated area, it would have telegraphed to the Soviets that they lacked the resolve (or the disregard for civilian casualties) to make it an effective deterrent in the post war world.
The course of the cold war of the 50s through the 70s might have been very different had the more aggressive Soviet politicians and generals not known, with absolute certainty, that the U.S. would use the bomb on their cities if sufficiently provoked.
The war ended as my father (and all his mates) were on their way to attack and capture Singapor. Their convoy was 4 days away from launching their attack, so many lives were saved the day the Japanese surrendered, on BOTH sides. War is always bad, but in this case the atomic bombs were good, strange as it seems.
If you want to avoid mass killings and "war crimes" don't start a war in the first place, especially against a country that can flatten you when it comes to it.
*than it killed
What you failed to mention were the hundreds of lathes, drill presses and other machine tools in garages, sheds and rooms of homes throughout Tokyo who produced component parts for the weapons industry, which were collected and assembled in local factories (rocker arms for aircraft engines, grenade pins, etc). These were so intermingle with the civilian residences that they could not be attacked separately.
Wow. Not so innocent civilians.
Not supposed to say that part. Doesn't fit the victim narrative.
The Doolittle raid, while more morale boosting than tactical, did have a part in leading the Japanese Navy to attack Midway Island in June 1942. And by a combination of luck and skills, the US Navy scored a big victory there, stopping the Japanese expansion in the Pacific.
the "luck" narrative was psyops to prevent the Japanese from learning the US had a plan for Midway.
The battle of Midway was anticipated by the US Naval War College in teh 1930s, and a battle plan was devised during a series of wargames that played out almost exactly as it did in real life. The US went into Midway knowing what to expect and how it would go. They intercepted Japanese codes as well which allowed them to stay one step ahead. A US journalist somehow learned of all this and printed an article, and the US gov was afraid Japan would somehow read this article and change their codes and strategy accordingly, so the US gov decided to spin a narrative of "divine intervention" instead to suppress the journalist's article. And this narrative was the official story in the US until the 1970s when the truth was declassified. In recent years people have done studies of the battle and played various what-if scenarios, and it was nearly impossible for the US to come out of Midway with an unfavorable outcome, even if the battle hadn't ended so one-sided.
Midway was a great testbed for proximity fuses on antiaircraft shells.
Japan's militarists vowed to fight to the last man. The US chose to accommodate them. As Sherman said, war is the solution our enemy has chosen. Give them their fill.
The video mentions the factories were situated in residential areas, I've even read where in some instances machines were moved into the operators homes to keep them safe. Regardless of how horrible it was, wiping out their production capability is a sound tactic.
The Japanese did not have what we would call "zones" dividing residential and industrial areas. Further, the typical Japanese house was basically wood and paper (it still was when I was in Japan in the mid 60'). Easy to ignite and easy to keep burning.
My uncle made it to the Pacific while a Marine. but fought on Iwo and was wounded. My dad who was younger than my uncle used his ID to join the Army in Europe. He was in the Battle of the Bulge when he was found to be under age and sent to the rear. His MOS was as an Artillery Instructor barely over 17. The family got together at my dad's funeral and my uncle told the funny story. It' too bad the records were destroyed in the huge records fire in St. Louis.
My Dad's records were destroyed in the St. Louis fire as well. He was in the Eighth Air Force in Europe.
What they did for us will always be remembered.
Your families services and sacrifices will always be appreciated!
Yes the records fire was hard on many relatives of WW II heroes. My father was in the Pacific AIR corps before PEARL and received 5 combat decorations including a Silver Star, Distinguished Fling Cross and 2 Purple Hearts however, I only have a few bits of information as he did not speak of the war. We (his children) did hear some nightmares occasionally over the years and yes the A-Bomb was necessary and Japan should thank the US for allowing the technology to end the war and save over a million more estimated lives than Tojo and his gang had already caused in Asia. My father also had a best friend who died in the Death March inflicted on th Corrigador POWs early in the Pacific was in the Philippines. RIP all who died in the war and those that survived to relive the horrors.
My father’s records were destroyed in St Louis also! My mother was denied benefits that would’ve helped her greatly after he passed away!
@@cnote9958 That’s disgraceful. Ugh it’s awful that the government has a long and storied history of treating its veterans like garbage once they are home.
Back in the '60's I had a college professor who was scheduled to go ashore in the fifth wave of our landings on Japan. He wasn't a fighter but would begin establishing civil government. He marched into class the day we were scheduled to cover the A-bombing of Japan. He glared at us students than dared any of us to debate the bombing. Several of us were busy sucking in air, ready to debate when he dropped his own bomb about being in the fifth wave. I knew my professor had been on the admiral's staff of Taffy 3 when four Japanese battleships and a whole lot more cruisers and destroyers showed up with the sunrise. That day, off Samar, we had three destroyers and 4 smaller DE's. It amazed me that he'd survived the war. Sorry, but the bomb saved hundreds of thousands of US troops and likely millions of Japanese civilian and military lives. It was a bitch of a choice, but the militarists had a hammer lock on the Japanese government's decision making. They were prepared to let fifty million Japanese subjects die.
I watched a great doco on the "Kyūjō incident", an attempt by some of the extreme militarists to stop the Emperors surrender announcement to the Japanese people by coup. They went as far as murdering one of their own generals. The leaders of the coup attempt suicided when they failed.
Even after the nukes, the military commanders refused to surrender... It took a basket of dirty underwear and a recording of the emperor to do what none of them were willing to.
The 1000+ year old Japanese culture of Victory or Death had to be overcome before Japan would surrender. Truman had to drop the A- Bomb!
I am sorry to say "War is Hel!"
The Human Spirit has yet to find a way to avoid it...
🙏🙏
Yep
Japan would have fallen regardless, it's been very well documented by historians, they were on the verge of surrender. The U.S. military wanted to test nuclear weapons.
I disagree with your conclusion that the Doolittle raid was a "massive waste of resources". That raid caused the Japanese to 'waste' many naval assets in home defense to prevent another such raid. That caution denied them the use of those assets elsewhere in the theater.
Yes, David is right. The Japanese military leadership at the time was divided in which way to go next. Towards India and hook up with the Germans and Italians in that part of the world or to the South Pacific and take Fiji islands and invade Australia or to take Midway Island. The Doolittle raid settled the debate. It would be Midway to draw the American Navy into battle and finish it off. The battle of Midway was the turning point of the war as four of the big Japanese carriers that attacked Pearl Harbor the previous December and most of their highly trained and experienced pilots were lost in that battle. Without the Doolittle raid on Toyoko, the Midway Battle might not have taken place. Plus the Japanese Army was killing thousands of Chinese at the time, daily. Some historians claim that more heads were chopped off by Japanese Army personnel during the war in Asia than were killed in the two atomic bomb attacks.
Loss of face is a big deal in the Orient. This embarrassing event cause IJN to plan the Midway attack.
That was not HIS opinion. Fools. It was the opinion of those in chagre.
Watch the video and think next time yes?
@@cathyadams3392 See my other comment.
Because if you think japan was going to invade Australia you are as wrong there as you are as you are in the this comment.
@@cathyadams3392 oh by far. I read a comparison somewhere that listed the Japanese soldier with the highest kill ratio (when including civilians killed as well as opposing soldiers). And you're right about Midway too.
The Japanese barely acknowledge the atrocities they committed throughout Asia during World War II. And when I was over there in the military's in the 1990s they didn't speak of it at all. But the right wingers in Japan downplayed or outright denied them. But instead focused on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Probably because they fail in comparison to what the Jews did to them think Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
All war crimes and all war criminals should be exposed and highlighted, the Japanese have never acknowledged their war crimes and this is a thing they share with the USA and the UK.
Japan started the war. The US and allies did what was required to end it. That massive loss of life was required on all sides is on them. Period. Full stop.
@@davidsellars646 Okay
@@davidsellars646 You don’t know if that was what was required or not nobody does FULL STOP. It’s funny how people are so selective about what is deemed Acceptable to do to end a war & what’s not. How about murdering thousands of innocent civilians is unforgivable no matter who does it…. And that was my whole point what America did to those people WAS DEFINITELY AN ATROCITY AND WORSE THAN ANYTHING JAPAN DID.
My Japanese mother as a baby and her family survived this very attack. the family house in downtown Nakakano in the center of Tokyo, and the family the family shrine two blocks away were the only building to survive the attack relativiely unscathed. To this day a hard memory for her still. Thankfully the war is over. The US and Japan are strong allies and family now.
Stockholm Syndrome?
Japan is not a strong ally because it’s still not trusted with offensive forces. That’s the legacy for Japan from waging war.
@@seanlander9321 Not to mention, the atrocities
That will be felt until next century.
They may have erased it from their own history
But they're just as responsible for the nuclear age as America. The seal was broken on the use of atomic weapons that event will come back on us all of us some day.
Granted it may have been inevitable to use atomic weapons now or later, but that's not the way history played out.
@@seanlander9321 Wow, You said nothing offensive, yet UA-cam shadow banned your reply.
You didn't even say anything controversial and they hid your response.
Y.T is out of control.
By dropping the Atomic bombs saved many lives including my Dad because they were loading up on ships in France to go to Japan ! He had already survived fighting the Nazis and was going to have to fight the Japanese! He had already lost one brother in 1944 fighting the Japanese around the Philippines and he was happy when they told him the Japanese had surrendered!
My grandfather was also spared combat in Japan because of the surrender. His regiment was already in Hawaii, Due to delays they have spent a little over a year there. when it was already decided they were going to be part of the invasion of Japan and were gearing up the war ended and instead his unit was demobilized and sent home.
@@riquirodriguez1707 A many lives were saved because the Chief of Staff said they were expecting 1 million casualties for the invasion of Japan !
My dad as well. He was told that his odds of survival were low, but that the invasion of Japan was necessary as they refused all demands to surrender. He had trained to be a glider pilot after driving a truck through the ETO, but had hoped for better odds.
My father was on Okinawa training for the invasion of Kyushu. He was a US Army Combat Engineer and had already been involved in brutal cave fighting on both Guam and Okinawa. I have no doubt I wouldn't be here but for the atomic bombs dropped on Japan.
My father in the ETO from D-Day, wounded at the battle of the Bulge and at the crossing of the Rhine was building the camp to send the GIs to the Pacific. I have a picture of him on a bridge in the camp of a GI rowing a boat that says Pacific Bound.
I have no doubt there is a good possibility I would not exist if the fire bombing and Atomic bombing of Japan had not occurred
As horrible as the Germans were; the Japanese were worse! The appearance and truth was buried and and distorted to create the image of Japan and make them our allay against rising Russia and China.
the Doolittle raid wasn't so much about doing damage per say. It was more about morale. It let the Japanese know they weren't untouchable anymore plus they would have to keep troops at home to defend against air raids. So while it didn't take out military capabilities it did remove them from battles by keeping them back just in case.
Learning about WWII, even as a child in the 1960s, taught me the evil that lies in the heart of men. Many young people today think that they are morally better than this which is what scares me.
Given the chance of no repercussions, humans, will sink to the lowest levels of morality. I once told a younger person trying to harangue me about my Vietnam service "just be tankful you have people like me to protect you from people like me".
The greatest generation wasn't so morally deficient as you seem to conclude here. It seems to me that you should read more about the terrible situation that the Japanese put the Americans in during the latter months of the war. They fanatically fought to the last man. They held suicidal last-stands on every island which were only intended to cause as many casualties as possible to US troops. They flew their planes, with bombs attached and filled with gasoline, into American ships; killing thousands of sailors. They refused to negotiate and they vowed to never surrender. So, invading their country would have cost the USA many thousands of lives and it would have dragged the war out for years to come, which would have made the entire world suffer.
With their limited technology, I believe that this was the USA's only option. They didn't have smart bombs which could only hit military targets, thus saving civilian lives. They only had dumb bombs which had to be dropped enmass and then they'd basically hit the intended target by luck. They had no other options and they were seeing the casualty counts of their own soldiers steadily growing each day as they advanced closer to Japan.
Put yourself in their position. What would you have done? Sacrificed tens or hundreds of thousands of the lives of your own countrymen in a bloody invasion attempt? Or would you have done something like this, which I'm sure was sickening to even contemplate, but in the end would you have concluded it was better than the alternative?
They definitely arent morally better, their bankrupt morals are just shielded by those who came before them sacrifices.
We live in the Goldilocks era of Human history
It won't always be this way.
They don't have to make the choices and decisions, or sacrifices.
They sit back and bicker over entitlement
America was worth fighting for back then but certainly not now. Imagine the massive rioting if we ever reinstituted the draft?
@@writerme You should consider reading The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (who I am informally quoting by the way). My father and 4 of my uncles bravely fought for this country in WWII BTW.
My father, God rest his soul and others on the Allied side as well, worked in a war-related plant in Schenectady, N.Y. and was, therefore, exempt from serving in the active military. He got to know many many active service personnel some of whom served on shipboard off the coast of Japan. To a man, they were extremely grateful for the Air Force efforts in bringing the war to mainland Japan. The toll of American lives had we had to invade would have been monsterous !
Many asked how those who objected to carpet bombing or the atomic bombs would have felt if they had been on the decks of the landing ships off the Japanese coast waiting their turn to go ashore and face the perhaps certain death involved !
My grandfather was a radio operator on a B-29 named Genie, in the 20th Air Force. 58th Bomb Group; he flew in the Tokyo Raids. One mission their bomber sustained heavy damage from Japanese anti-air defenses resulting in them having to fly towards China as they wouldn’t have been able to make it back to the island they took off from. I think it was Tinian, I don’t remember. His pilot and copilot died in the crash landing somewhere about 15 miles inland luckily in an allied region of China. Grandpa and the rest of the crew were later rescued by Chinese farmers and several Chinese militiamen who had never seen an American before. Eventually they got back to an airbase and he then flew aboard Jacks Hack, which is currently on display at the New England Air Museum.
Martin Caidens book A Torch to the Enemy is a detailed account of this fire raid. The effects on the populace are detailed. Strategically it definitely moved the needle towards the Japanese surrender.
I don’t know if I entirely agree. I would say it required Japan to pull what little resources they had left back to the home islands to defend it. You could say it shortened the war since Japan couldn’t really defend much further outside the home islands. Especially by air. The population itself could have wanted to end the war, by the military government by no means wanted to surrender
I was told as a child. If you play with fire you are gunna get burned. Maybe December 7, 1941 should be rethought.
@@WAH1447_cards ...THE PROBLEM WAS THAT THE BIG SHOTS IN JAPAN HAD TOO DAM MUCH TO ANSWER FOR- AND THEY WERE TRYING TO SAVE THEIR OWN HIDES BY DRAGGING OUT THE WAR- AND GAMBLING THAT THE U.S. WAS WOULD TIRE OF THE BLOODSHED AND CAVE IN FIRST!!!
...BUT THE U.S. FOOLED JAPAN- AND NUKED JAPAN'S ASS-(!)
Yes, and the fire bombings were so successful that the USA ran out of cities to fire bomb.
When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, they awoke the sleeping giant. They delivered a "divine" wind, but in the end, they reaped the whirlwind. If we had not finished the war, many millions of additional lives would have been lost and rather than focusing on the economics, the point was to finish the war they started. Often overlooked is that we were also preventing Russia from taking any of the Japanese territories.
The Japanese also attacked Pearl before declaring war (they tried to declare before but their embassy people screwed it up). The US knew of the approaching attack due to having broken the Japanese code but they screwed up getting message to Pearl before the attack started.
Euclidus--- You would do well to read more of the beginnings of the war between U.S. & Japan. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. The occasional shooting started in the late 30's when the US 6th Fleet blockaded their oil shipments coming through the Philippine shipping lanes. The 6th Fleet shelled their Merchant Marine ships.
And "millions of additional lives"?? You're just ranting mindlessly there. Many more lives would have been lost, yes, but not anything like millions. Calm down and do your research.
@@lesizmor9079 ...HAS IT EVER OCCURRED TO YOU THAT THE U.S. INTERFERING WITH JAPANESE SHIPMENTS MIGHT HAVE HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE ATROCITIES JAPAN WAS INFLICTING ON CHINA- AND THE U.S. DIDN'T WANT TO CONTINUE BEING AN ACCESSORY TO JAPAN'S AGGRESSION?!!
@@lesizmor9079 Bull$hit! The Sixth Fleet was not established until February 1950 and was in the Mediterranean. Prior to WW2 the Asiatic Squadron was responsible for that area and was so understrength that they wound not dare pick a fight with the Japanese navy. The unprovoked attack and sinking of the USS Panay on December 12, 1937 was the only attack between the two countries prior to Pearl Harbor. You are the one making stuff up.
@@daleburrell6273 Lez Izmor's post is pure fabrication. He is either making it up or has confused the embargos, an economic measure, with some sort of military measure.
The Doolittle Raid was a message well-delivered and worth every bit of cost in money, material, and lives.
Well Done!!! and this from a person who has studied the war in the Pacific since 1962. My interest was stoked because my father had been a TBM Avenger pilot in Night Torpedo Squadron 90 aboard the USS Enterprise. On February 17, 1945, he flew a night strike on Tokyo in the first carrier attack since the Doolittle raid. You perfectly described the B-29 fire bombing of Tokyo and I am impressed with your presentation. I might add that the high altitude precision bombing did not work because our B-29s were dropping bombs from 30,000 feet that fell through jet stream winds which scattered the bombs. In fact, some of the winds aloft our planes encountered reached 200 mph and had never been seen before. Again, kudos to you from a highly knowledgeable historian.
No one in WW2 was more lethal than the Japanese soldier. For every Japanese soldier killed, that soldier killed eight soldiers and civilians (mostly civilians in China). Very few allowed themselves to be taken prisoner, and their horrific war crimes are well known and documented. Their treatment of prisoners and conquered civilian populations was incomprehensible.
And they would. not. give. up.
In the end, the only thing that finally convinced the Emperor to give in wasn't our little nukes that did less damage than Lemay's firebombing, but instead was the Soviet invasion of Manchuria on August 9th when 1.5 million Russians flooded Manchuria and threatened Japan with a fate worse than annihilation - complete subjugation at the hands of the Soviets.
You are mostly correct, except for the reason why it was a worse fate for japan's government; it was the fact that under soviet occupation, the fascists and almost certainly the emperor as well would have been executed, as shown by Unit 731 being left off the hook damn near scot free despite committing countless war crimes and numerous crimes against humanity.
Without the United States propping them up, the Soviets didn't have the wherewithal to invade Japan. Too much emphasis and credit is given to the Soviets by the revisionist historians. Without the United State's Lend Lease program and Germany losing access to the vast oil fields in North Africa, the Soviets would have been crushed by Germany within the first 6 months...
Well put. Sell well said I think I'm going to copy and paste.
Enter the Hitler Youth
How? They didnt even have credible navy for a landing,,, How about Airborne????
Given the brutality show by the Imperial army elsewhere in the conflict, I personally won't shed any tears.
We should have turned that island into a parking lot...then taken the lot.
If you are fine with the mass murder of civilians, then I bet you thought the showers at Auschwitz were a real gas.
That’s harsh on the civilians simply living their lives where they were born as best they could
The definitive response. Agfeed
@@RandomGamplaysShoty which is the fault of their government. They didn't care about their people, only their "honor."
The USA was said to lose 1,000,000 men in fighting to take the islands of Japan. My Dad might have been one of them but the war that Japan started ended first, thank god. WAR is a terrible thing but there is one thing that worsts than war, losing one.
When I was a Navy Intel Officer, I took part in an exercise with the JSDF Navy attached to COMUSFJ staff at Yakota Air Base outside Tokyo. We were given a "cultural sensitivity" brief before leaving CONUS. They told us we would each have an equal rank JSDF counterpart officer, and discussion of WWII was fine as long as we didn't bring up how it started or how it ended! Since I married the daughter of an Army grunt assigned to the planned invasion of Japan I have no scruples about anything we had to do to stop the bestial behavior of the Japanese military.
It is my understanding the Japanese had to keep ships and planes in the home Islands to protect the home islands that they would not otherwise have had to keep there. In my opinion it seemed like the Doolittle Raid was a tremendous success and tying up Japanese forces in the home Islands.
I agree. Look how our lives have changed since 9-11 has shown us our homeland is also vulnerable. Although in a different way.
Especially after Midway.
America also needed that time to gear up for war as we were ill prepared at that point.
At the time of the bombing Japan had initiated the kamikazes, created the Iwo Jima bloodbath and the atrocities in the Philippines. It was clear that the Japanese weren't going to take the easy way out which meant that it wasn't possible to hold back.
add the rape of Nanking and the medical experiment unit of the Imperial japanese army
Considering the actions of the imperial navy and army, the firebombing of Tokyo does not even begin to balance the scales.
The victor of war doesn't need to apologize to the defeated. On top of that very few Japanese military members were ever punished for the war crimes they committed, nor has the Japanese government apologized for them or even recognized many of them even happened
There is absolutely no reason for the great grandchildren of forefathers to apologize to the great-grandchildren of those who ambushed the US in the first place. No way, no how - and I say that as a person of Asian heritage living the US myself. War illustrates the outer limits of evil, and the desperation of humanity to maintain itself through it. Nothing resets humanity's priorities faster than a world war - which is why we have only had two of them and tried our best not to have another (though one may argue what's going on in Ukraine and Taiwan to be the opening act of the third one).
My buddy fought in Vietnam in the 60s, and had some R&R IN TOKEYO
That is not entirely accurate or truthful
The atrocities committed by the Japanese army at that time more than overshadows any bombings they were unleashed on them. Read the story of the Bataan Death March. You can also read about what happened in Nanking, China.
My father survived the death march. The Rape of Nanking is perhaps the most horrible exhibition of inhumanity of people of similar races against each other. Our Civil war pales by comparison. When the JAPANESE chose to attack us, for cutting off their supplies of oil, as Admiral Yamamoto said, I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant. They actually ate some of our captured soldiers in their belief that consuming a person, or his organs would give them the fearlessness of the unwilling donor .
Don't forget Unit 731. It made the Nazi experiments of Mengele look like kids playing Doctor!
fr fuck those monsters. crazy how they went from a gung ho war crime commiting society to a high tech weebish society in 70 years
My Father, two of his brothers-in-law, & one of his cousins finished their
work in Europe and my Father was on a ship headed to Japan by the time the
Atomic
bombs were dropped in Japan. The U. S. Military had 500,000 Purple Heart Medals
stamped out and supplies for World War II to be fought until 1948 were being
stacked on Pacific Islands. Plans were made but not approved for using poison gas
delivered by airplane which was estimated to kill 7-10 million
Japanese in 10 days. I and millions of other Americans & Japanese would not exist
if that war had continued for 2-3 more years.
People seem to forget or don’t know that because of the firebombing campaign that destroyed most Japanese cities at the end of World War Two is the reason Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen for the atomic bombs. It was because they were two of the largest cities that had yet to be firebombed is the reason the US chose to nuke them.
I’m from the Marianas Islands(Saipan).You can still see the bunkers and shelters were they stored bombs and I often walk on the old runways where the bombers took off. I’ve even seen the atomic bomb pits where they loaded them onto the planes.
One of the runways on Tinian has been restored to operational status. The US Marines use it during training exercises. I recently saw a video of a Marines C-130 landing on it.
...YOU'RE LUCKY-(!)
@@Fleghorn504 ...my father was a flight engineer on a B-29 during WW2- I'd have to say that your father had it WORSE-!!!
@@joevignolor4u949 an F35 visited in 2022 also
I read a first hand account of one of these fire bombing raids. Long story short, a new member of the bomber crew saw the entire horizon a glow. He ask how close they were. The pilot replied, we're still ninety miles out from the coast. Until the aggressor (Japan) asks forgiveness an apology is meaningless.
...YOU SUMMED IT UP PERFECTLY-!!!
Richard Rogerson Yes sadness is on order, but not an apology. The only apology due is from the Japanese military for starting the war and murdering some 20 million people.
NO APOLOGY !!! NEVER !!!
@@d.owczarzak6888 Have the Japanese ever apologized for killing 20 million people?
@@dennisweidner288 ...WHAT THE HELL GOOD WOULD IT DO, ANYWAY?!
TALK IS CHEAP-!!!
The "intense gust of wind" that was interfering with precision bombing is better known as the Jet Stream. It wasn't some random event. It was a steady 200mph, right at the altitude where the B-29s flew, and nobody knew it was there before, because nobody ever flew over Japan at that altitude before.
Fun fact - One of 21st Bomber Command's meteorologist was Edward Lorenz, who would go on to discover Chaos Theory and what is popularly known as "The Butterfly Effect." He'd been just weeks away from a PhD in Mathematics from Harvard when the US entered the war and he was recruited to become a meteorologist. That was where he found his passion. So you could say that Pearl Harbor was a butterfly flapping its wings in the course of his own life.
When considering the US bombing of Tokyo and other legitimate targets in Japan, let us not forget the appalling treatment of captured American aircrew at the hands of the Japanese who refused to be signatories to The Geneva Convention. Brave men who deserve our respect and admiration for their service.
Not quite. The Geneva Convention originated from 1949. The Geneva Protocol from 1925 has Japan as a signatory and Japan was a signatory to part IV "Convention respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land" of the Hague convention of 1907. Ironically, the US was a party to the Geneva Protocol under "Parties with unwithdrawn reservations limiting the applicability of provisions of the Protocol".
@@TomFynn The Geneva Convention consists of four treaties signed over the course of 30 years. The third one about prisoners of war was drafted in 1929. Japan, despite signing it, considered it illegitmate.
It is truly heartbreaking. It’s a damn shame things have to hit so hard. They lit the fuse as sad as it was. They begged the Japanese over and over to give up.
My father, who was in the Pacific theater during the time up to the Tokyo raid, and if he was still with us, he would say........Hell no! No apology. We didn't start it, but we damn well finished it.
The last word is from Jim! Good post.
The US started it - so did the West. The entire East Asia was colonized. Before Pearl Harbour, a blockade had been imposed on Japan, forcing its hand.
@@jonaarbakke9633 And the reason for the blockade was nothing to do with the Japanese atrocities in Manchuria?
@@jonaarbakke9633moron
@@jonaarbakke9633 There was no blockade on Japan. Embargo of oil and steel yes, blockade no. Otherwise our battleships would not have been in port at Pearl Harbor. And by the way, Japan invaded China.
As usual, the first minute of so is all I need; thank you.
You missed the point of the Doolittle raid entirely. A handful of B25s was never meant to knock out whole factories, shipyards, government building or anything else of significance. They were not meant to do major physical damage. They meant to and did in fact cause psychological damage to Japanese moral. They sent a message to Tojo and company not to get smug or complacent, that the U.S. could and would strike at the heart of the Japanese empire. It was just a matter of time. For someone who is supposedly up on their history, you seem to display a rather severe lack of information here!
Spot on! 100 lb. bombs, (much of what was used in the raid), will do little significant damage, but they will get the people's attention.
The Doolittle raid was for entirely PR. It worked brilliantly
Exactly 💯 💯
My late father was an RCAF Halifax bomber pilot in the European theater in WWII. I recall asking him about the morality of the fire-bombing of Dresden late in war (he was not involved personally). He replied , “Son, you cannot understand. It was war. And Dresden was a target.” War by definition involves the suspension of morality. Memories of the war tormented the soul of my father until his death at ninety-two.
Funny isnt it - when we burn down a whole city and the people in it, it is not a war crime but when Russia hits some apartment towers it is a war crime? Now it seems destroying the electricity grid is also unacceptable yet, when The Us Attacked Iraq and when NATO bombed Belgrade, the first things they targeted were electricity, communications and bridges because they were treated as military targets. People should appreciate that the Russians held off attacking the infrastructure for so long.
Morality? Bombing the Nazis?
@@kenneths.perlman1112 Morality?Massacring the American Indians, nuking whole cities full of civilians, firebombing cities full of civilians, napalming civilians?
Nonsense. That reasoning would allow each and every atrocity.
@@ninoivanov It is you that is excusing mass murder, not me.
Although the damage done and lives lost by the fire bombing of Tokyo during the "Night of the Black Snow" would likely be consider a war crime and/or a crime against humanity by today's standards and rule of warfare, it would be wise to consider the context in which this event took place. The US had recently been attacked at Pearl Harbor and had suffered tens of thousands of loses during it's island hopping campaign, and well as numerous loses of warships and aircraft in various sea battles as well such as in Midway. It wasn't a given that the US was going to be as successful as it was in getting close to Japan as it was and it could be said that in some cases such as Midway it was almost more a matter of luck that the US won than anything else since there were many times that the Japanese likely had the advantage in the battle. None the less, even when the US won any battle it was all but a given that every victory came at a great cost and the Japanese were fanatical in their beliefs and gave incredible resistance in each conflict.
For the Japanese it was a doctrine of victory or death and they expect little quarter and gave almost none if any. Against such an enemy a military commander can not handle them with "kid gloves" so to speak and one would have to expect to use any military resource available to it's utmost potential. If they were not willing to do this, then it is possible that the enemy commanders themselves could seize an opportunity to use whatever resources that were not destroyed do to the commanders timid hesitation. In other words, both the US and Japanese commanders believed they were in a kill or be killed situation and were willing to use almost any and all means to destroy their enemies ability to conduct war.
It is easy to point out in times outside of such a conflict that a military commanders actions could be a war crime but if one takes a moment to realize that the reason such a person was put in such a position is because of what they are willing to do to protect their country it might be easier to understand why such actions were done. If somehow the Japanese had won the war, they would have tortured and then killed every US commander (as well as most of the pilots and soldiers that fought against the Japanese) who responsible for bombing of Japan that they could get their hands on. I'm not saying it is "OK" that the US did what it did partly out of fear of what the Japanese would do to those that they conquered, I'm just saying that one should also think about how little quarter the Japanese would have given if they ever had the upper hand during WWII and if they would have considered it a war crime if their commanders did the same thing to US cities and civilians.
All that said I'm glad the US and Japan are today allies on good terms and that we have mostly overcome our differences since the war. The Japanese are smart, hard working people, and I feel sorry for the US and Japanese loses that were cause by WWII and hope that in the future we can stop and many destructive wars as possible before they start.
Very well and thank you for sharing your thoughts on the matter. I wonder how one views the US today with its war mongering and imperialistic ambitions that has virtually been in a constant state of war for the past 200 years for the sole reason to do the political class and their lobbyists bidding? Ukraine is the latest example that by virtue has tarnished the US's moral standing in the world because of its proxy disposition and regime change mentality that it has encroached upon many countries sovereignty in the world with. For this a growing resentment towards the US has grown and continues to hurt US standing in today's world.
@@joseyzadoria7815 You have no idea what imperialism and warmongering really are.
@@Outlier999 Yeah sure, because you think you know what I know. Big middle finger to your assumptions and asinine ignorant statement!
@@Outlier999 FU! And the Biden you rode in on!
@ joseyzadoria... Are you a Russian disinformationalist? The US fights AGAINST imperialist aggression- like Russia's invasion of Ukraine, after its annexation of Crimea. The US protects the rights of freely elected states.
Operation Meetinghouse on March 9-10, 1945 was the incendiary bombing of Tokyo which with a combination of high wind and the wooden houses caused a massive firestorm resulting in tremendous loss of lives and property. It’s the single most destructive act of war in human history. Well over 100,000 dead and over a million homeless. The Japanese called it the “Night of the Black Snow”. US used B-29 bombers at fairly low altitude to drop napalm and white phosphorus.
The Tokyo raid was horrific, according to my father who piloted one of the B29s. In fact, there actually were two such raids. And the bomber groups each struck multiple times each of those nights. Each airplane was loaded half with incendiary and half with high explosive bombs. Their first pass they dropped the incendiary bombs, then they circled back to drop the high explosives to thwart any efforts to fight the fires.
There is no need for apologies for the Tokyo raid or the A bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Yes, it is estimated between 80,000 and 130,000 died in the Tokyo raids, while between 130,000 and 215,000 died in the two atomic blasts. So somewhere between 210,000 and 345,000 between the four raids. Many of those killed were civilians, but much of the civilian population was involved in production for the war effort (as in the US) and unlike in the US and Europe, many Japanesex production facilities were scattered throughout residential neighborhoods.
But also consider that most probably the Japanese were the aggressor and their military is believed to have killed 6,000,000 from 1937 when they invaded China to the end of WWII in 1945. Some estimates run as high as 10,000,000. Those included both military and civilian from the many Asian nations they invaded, as we all as Allied military, millions of forced laborers and at least 138,000 prisoners of war.
If the Allies had instead landed on the Japanese mainland it was estimated just establishing a beachhead would cost 50,000 American lives. After our experience capruring Iwo Jima and Okinawa (where 19,000 American soldiers, 132,000 Japamese military and up to 130,000 Japanese civilians died) MacArthur feared the Imperial government would lose control and a guerrilla war develop on the Japanese mainland that saw 1 million Allied soldiers fight for ten years to truly subdue the country. The loss of life on both sides would have been in the millions of that had happened.
So as horrible as the Tokyo fire bombings and the two atomic bombs were, no apologies are needed because those actions brought to a swift end a war that would otherwise have been far more costly in lives and destruction.
I dont care how you paint it, by any definition its a war crime abd an apology is warranted
@@rogerfreas4139 I worked for a Japanese company - SMC, which is now a billion $ a year company - wanna guess where it started? In the founder's house, in a residential area, making components used by thier military. So was it a legitimate target ? Same with VC using hospitals and schools as base camps to attack us.
@Fidd88, I'm just sorry they didn't have enough a-bombs to enable the Allied forces to carpet bomb that whole damned country. What they did to the POW's and to the Chinese would have been justification enough!
I can't imagine that anyone even remotely educated about how the Japanese prosecuted WW2 would have a shred of sympathy.
Sympathy? Only in a dictionary. It's just shame they didn't have enough a-bombs to carpet bomb that country and pay them back at least partially for the savage barbarism they used to conduct the war.
Agreed
No sympathy for children?I don't know what blame they had for the barbaric actions of their army.
I am far more than "remotely educated" on Japanese military actions from 1931-45. That you can't imagine sympathy for women and children dying slowly from flames, heat and smoke only means you have an unusually tiny imagination.
I don't think it's about how they behaved.
I'm less sure than this otherwise excellent video that antiaircraft gun fire caused the B-29 losses on the first Tokyo fire bombing missions. Most of the AAA guns defending Tokyo were relatively old and slow firing 80mm and 75mm weapons. Some more modern 120mm weapons also participated in the defense of Tokyo. However, one reason LeMay made the decision to execute this mission was the weakness of IJA low-level defenses. Unlike the Luftwaffe, the IJA did not have excellent 37mm and 20mm AAA weapon systems and mostly relied on slow-firing 25mm systems for low level air defenses that had a low muzzle velocity and an intense muzzle flash that would have impeded gunnery accuracy, especially at night. Moreover, all IJA AAA guns in Tokyo would have had restricted fields of fire against low level attackers that would have reduced engagement opportunities. In any event, returning aircrew reported massive thermals over the target caused by the intense fires raging below. Some returning crews reported observations of neighboring B-29s being flipped over on their backs and crashing into the ground. I suspect thermals accounted for a significant share of the relatively heavy B-29 losses that night over Tokyo. Collisions in the crowded night sky probably accounted for a few losses too.
My dad was very busy shooting down kamikazi raid on the fleet around Okinawa. His ship never made it back to the states, being sunk an hour or so before she was to be relieved for her return to SF for a refit. They had fired so much ammo that her 40mm would glow cherry red. My dad would never agree to any statements of regret and I could see him telling anyone who called for war crimes to stick it.
War is war and there will never be apologies for it.
My dad was a part of that raid with the 314 bomb wing 19th bomb group, 28th squadron
He was a left blister gunner, City of Tulsa was the name of the plane, M11 plane number. He told me stories of that raid when I was a kid.
The US has no reason to apologize for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Japanese were the first to attack and had to pay the consequences for their actions. Unfortunately war is not a game that you can play where no one dies, too many do and that is why we need to learn to get along with each other and respect each others boundaries.
But that’s just it, the Japanese military was the first to attack, the price of the bloodshed at Pearl Harbour does not lay at the feet of innocent civilians. Though I do see and understand the other side of it, the Japanese government refusing to capitulate and negotiate does put America in a tough spot, I don’t have the answer to whether America should apologize. But I will say that you disregarding the mass killing of the innocent as the consequences of starting a war is shortsighted and objectively false
I get that, but war crime hearings should have been pursued over the atomic bombings. Winning a war you didn't start doesn't give any nation agency to liquidate hundreds of thousands of civilians.
@@Ulrich_von_Jungingen The two.bombings killed 200,000 people. A conventional invasion of the Japanese home islands would have killed 1 million allied servicemen and 5 to 6 million Japanese civilians. The Japanese held in reserve 10,000 planes to be used as Kamikazis against our invasion fleet. And they were training civilians to meet our landing at the beaches with sharpened bamboo sticks and satchel charges strapped to their bodies. So Gen Ulrich, which butcher bill would you like to pay ? We need your answer. Col Tibetts is in the Enola Gay with the engines idling. Give the order: Proceed with the mission to bomb Hiroshima, or Scrub the Mission? Which is it? Col Tibetts is waiting for your decision...Launch or Scrub the Mission ?
The hell with Tokyo and the hell with Japan. They got what was deserved.
Hell no they don’t deserve an apology. To this day Japan still refuses to even acknowledge the horrible things THEY did in the war, let alone apologize for them or make reparations. As someone else stated.. when you pick a fight and are rather brutal in your actions, you don’t get to cry about whatever consequences you received in order to make you stop.
When your enemy considers it an "honor" to die in a war that cannot be won. You have to do the unimaginable to change his mind. They were willing to send women and children into battle against men armed to the teeth with nothing more then bamboo spears. The cost paid was a dear one, but we changed his mind. Now, we are friends and allies. It's a strange world.
I’ve had a couple of personal links to the bombing of Japan. I used to make lots of technical marketing visits to Japan. Only once was WW II mentioned. After we checked in with the receptionist and were waiting for the customers to come from their offices, my Japanese colleague mentioned that the USAF had tried to bomb this building repeatedly without success. I think I just stood there with my mouth open. No appropriate response was available. It was Mitsubishi Gunma. Definitely my weirdest and most exclusive aviation experience.
The other connection is that my father was in the Marine Second Division, scheduled to be in the first wave of the invasion of Japan. He believed that the atomic bombs saved his life.
My dad was in the USMC when the bomb dropped. He believed that the bomb saved his life.
@@GilmerJohn yeah. Apparently the Marine 2nd Div didn’t appear in the invasion plans after day 4. They didn’t say it was destroyed….. And my dad participated in the meat grinder campaign at the end of the Okinawa operation. He talked about seeing a dump truck load of dead Marines coming back as he was moving up. He talked about the night he spent outside the perimeter. And he talked about the nice old general who asked him general type questions about his family and how they were treating him. Simon Bolivar Buckner, just before he got blown away. My dad was with the same command company that got blown up in Lebanon many years later. I wonder if Buckner was visiting that company when he died.
Dad was on Tinian, a B 25 navigator. He would have been in that first wave too. No, the atomic bombs saved your father, Mr Gilmer's father, and my father. Which means they saved each of us too. I was in Hiroshima three years ago, and went to the memorial. There was a Japanese gentleman there, placards, signs, etc protesting how his mother was gravely injured during the raid, and how he was a "survivor" of the nuclear blast. I calmly went up to him, gaygin, round eye, Caucasian, and told him in English that I was a survivor too, how my father nearly died. The man was somewhat surprised, startled even that anyone would question his "victim" status, much less an American. He looked me straight in the eye, and bowed very deeply. No one in Japan ever bowed to me like he did. I gave him my America version of trying to politely bow my head to him. His action truly spoke mountains, apology accepted with respect.
"You don’t know the horrible aspects of war. I’ve been through two wars and I know. I’ve seen cities and homes in ashes. I’ve seen thousands of men lying on the ground, their dead faces looking up at the skies. I tell you, war is Hell!" William Tecumseh Sherman (8 February 1820 - 14 February 1891), United States Army general during the American Civil War.
Tokyo has hardly the only city to be attacked during LeMay's firebombing campaign. If you read the book Flyboys by James Bradley, in the back, on Page 289 of the first Back Bay paperback edition, You'll Find the list of Cities attacked, the percentage of destroyed area and a comparable United States city. To name the cities attacked: Kawasaki, Shimizu, Hiratsuka, Toyohashi, Hammatsu, Kofu with the worst amount of damage at 78%, Hitachi, Tokyo with 40% destroyed, Yokohama, Chiba, Nagoya, Gifu, Takahatsu, Himeji, Kobe, Osaka, Shimonoseki, Moji with the least damage at 24%, and Nagaoka. This does not refer to "area bombed or area damaged but to area obliterated, gone, burned, turned to ash." The nukes we dropped that many people consider the reason for Japan's capitulation were just the icing on the cake. So much more was destroyed in the fire bombing campaign. Japan wants an apology. What about all the POW's that were eaten? Fillets taken from thighs, and bandaged, so as to keep the prisoner alive until they needed more meat. Among many many other things. No apologies. War is a nasty thing. And not too many people Involved in that war are left alive anyway. It was a long time ago.
Iris Chang wrote the book, "The Rape of Nanking", that described the horrors imposed upon the Chinese people at the hands of the Japanese in the 1930s. She had wanted to do a lecture tour in Japan after the book's release which was mostly denied but a very few colleges permitted her to speak. She said that WWII was rarely mentioned during a student's education never mind the many atrocities committed by Japan. At one college she was asked, "So Japan and America fought a war? Who won?"
Well said Sir.
@@rudydedogg6505 Good grief. I didn’t know their denial went that far. I’ve spoken to American children that don’t know about the moon landings or the Vietnam war, but to not even know about your own country being in and defeated in a world war? Mind boggling.
The Doolittle Raid WAS effective for strategic reasons. It caused the Japanese to rethink their deployment and affected their offensive campaigns when they recalled forces from the Indian Ocean to beef up defenses of the home islands. It banished the myth of the impregnable home land.
These were significant accomplishments for a mere sixteen bombers.
As others have said, your characterization of the Doolittle Raid is mistaken.
I believe that we should have called Japan's bluff, and blockaded the country near the end. We had sufficient resources in the area, and the threat of kamikazes would rapidly diminish. It would have taken longer though.
Japan accusing the US of war crimes is the height of hypocrisy.
@K PD While US was blockading Japan, USSR would have occupied it and would be as unwilling to leave as they were reluctant to leave Eastern Europe.
@@pauleohl that makes sense. Nothing is simple.
Add to Paul's comment ... the idea of invasion or a blockade were both considered. While the cost of an estimated 1 million casualties for the invaders has been often mentioned, there are some who considered the effects on the Japanese both having far greater casualties on them. Of those the greater damage would have been by blockade but it would have taken years and that wasn't desired
@@ret7army my dad was in the Philippines at the end of the war, so I'm glad it didn't come to an invasion.
@ K PD I think the activists he refers to for an apology are American not Japanese.
It was obvious Japan was going to loose. But they didn't give up. So put your self in the shoes of the US generals. Our troops were dieing in the thousands with island hopping.
Lol that clip of a piolt smoking a cigarette whilst flying a plane stuffed with fire bombs is the most 1940s thing I have ever seen
Like General Tecumseh Sherman said during his infamous "March to the Sea," "They voted for war, let's give them all they voted for." The U S motto during WWII "When in doubt WIN." Having spent a number of years working on the Nimitz Class aircraft carriers, CVN's, I enjoyed the motto emblazoned on their command ball caps: "90,000 tons of diplomacy"
❤
I find it particularly interesting that the Japanese developed a sudden, and new found interest in war crimes , after, the fire bombing of Tokyo.
That is so horrendously untrue and baseless it’s insane lmfao. The Rape of Nanking, probably their most infamous crime committed during WWII, took place in 1937?
i mean japan was basically warcrime royale during the 40s
Yeah this fire raid caused more casualties in Tokyo than the atomic bomb dropping on Hiroshima. Just to think about 20 years before Tokyo had been devastated by an earthquake and fires including fire tornadoes in the great Kanto earthquake.
Close to both Hiroshima and Nagasaki in fact. Around 100k in the firestorm, and around 105k from the nukes.
Japanese Nationalism before and during WWII used the Bushido code to maintain a policy of not surrendering and pledging to fight till the end. While it is feasible that the fire bombing of Tokyo on March 9, 1945 was a war crime, we have to remember the the US was fighting an enemy that would not give up; even when they had no hope of winning. If that meant unleashing hell on Japan to end the war, then the ends justify the means.
Imperialism was common at the time. It wasnt viewed as evil action that must be stopped at all cost until it effected another country's assets.
Do you think if Hawaii was invaded by foot soldiers and such by a military that americans would fight to the death to stop the invaders? What about if the invading military was a collection of countries that included pacific islanders who believed the US had acquired the hawaiian islands through forceful imperialism and that they must be stopped before the US includes more free islands into its rule of law? The bushido code is just a convenient excuse. The US very well had foot soldiers and pilots willing to sacrifice their life via suicidal methods that would be only designed to harm others.
War crime, war schmime. All's well that ends well.
No the US should not be held responsible. We are still waiting for Japan to apologize for the war and the atrocities they committed.
I read the book 30 Seconds Over Tokyo. As the Doolittle Raiders were steam towards Japan they were briefed by an expert on Japan’s capital. He said if you got a good fire going that the Tokyo Fire Department could never put it out. This was in 1942…. years before the Great Fire Raid.
An excellent book.
I first saw the 1944 movie by the same name when it first came out. I remember the drama when a bomber was about to be pushed overboard because it wouldn't start, but then it started and took off. Also, the embarrassment of a Chinese man who offered a pair of slippers to a downed airman before noticing that the airman had lost a leg. I don't know if any of that really happened.
The problem is that Japan's city design removed the innocence of the people in these areas. People lived clustered around the very factories where they worked, in this case factories that were directly contributing to the war effort. So the vast majority of people in these regions were, in fact, directly working in the military factories. Another thing to consider regarding this attack is the loss of knowledge and skilled manpower it inflicted. Even if the factories could be rebuilt, all the trained workers, and often the only people who knew how to make certain parts, perished in the attacks. There's literally no way to come back from such an attack.
As Sherman said, "War is hell." Those civilizations who selfishly start wars should be made to pay for allowing themselves to be lead into them. Regarding the fire bombing of Tokyo, another saying comes to mind, "All is fair in love and war." As far as I know, Japan never apologized for Pearl Harbor. Regardless, there will never be an apology for Tokyo.
If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t start a fight.
I worked in a warehouse in Yokuska Japan as a military dependent in high school. One morning as I reported to work the older, WWII age workers were huddled outside talking excitedly and looking at their watches. I asked the Japanese foreman, a young guy, what was going on. He dead pan explained they were counting down the minutes till the moment of attack at Pearl Harbor. They don’t think there’s anything to apologize for for Pearl Harbor and besides we “made” them attack by embargoing resources they needed for their empire ambitions. It’s our fault.
Actually what he said was, "War is all hell".
Anytime I hear someone from Japan complain about anything that happened in WWII, I ask them if any of it would have happened if it had not been for Pearl Harbor.
According to post-war analysis, the Tokyo fire bombing, technically, did not cause a firestorm. For a true firestorm, it has to generate winds to feed it, from all directions. The prevailing winds at the time of the raid prevented this from occurring. A minor point, I agree. I don't expect those carrying out the raid or those on the ground would have noticed the difference, but worth recording, I think.
The fires as I understood them were due to houses and structures made almost exclusively from wood and those structures were built very close together. There was literally no escaping the fires.
Robert Morgan, pilot of the famed "Memphis Belle", later flew B-29s after his tour in England ended. He wrote in his autobiography that they would fly at low altitudes at night to drop incendiaries on Japanese targets. As they didn't require oxygen they left their masks off and cracked open vents in the cockpit for fresh air. He said that once over the target, areas nearby were already ablaze and the smell of burnt flesh filled the cockpit. He wrote that whenever he smelled meat cooking on a backyard grill or from a BBQ restaurant he was reminded of those raids. I got to meet him about a year before he passed and I have an autographed copy of his book. RIP Col. Morgan.
@@rudydedogg6505 Thanks for that insight and glad you got to meet him.
A fire storm creates its own winds by burning so hard and fast it sucks in oxygen
The Japanese government should be held accountable for the people lost. They were a brutal foe and received death as a consequence. Do not apologize.
No. The US should not be held accountable for the bombing of Tokyo (or any other city for that matter). The US was trying to put an end to the war, and Japan was refusing to capitulate. The only thing left to do was to continue with the war effort and hope that Japan would surrender before the US was forced to invade the home islands, which everyone knew would be very costly. It's such a shame that the leadership in Japan was so stubborn and adamant, even when the rest of the world knew it was over for them. It was like that in Germany too. Germany never considered surrendering until the Allies and Soviets met at the Oder River on 25 April 1945.
Excellent effort by America. Nothing but praise for defeating and occupying an uncivilised aggressor that started a war.
Your contention the Doolittle raid was a “massive waste of resources” is contrary to the opinion of many historians. Japan significantly altered its plans for the war as a result of the raid. Which weakened their offensive capabilities. It also greatly improved the moral and confidence of the American people and the allies as a whole. Also, you give full credit to the British for the fire storming of Dresden. It was a combines US/British operation.
Japan had been offered many opportunities to surrender but because of pride & stupidity, they forced our hand by not believing that we either wouldn't or couldn't....sadly, they found out differently.
A huge & grateful salute to ALL our US service men & women that served then & now....esp. those that have given it all! May God bless them & give their souls His eternal rest!! ✝️
The Doolittle raid had two objective-both of which surpassed the objectives! The first was to show the folks at home in the US that we were doing something as the Japanese continued to invade and control almost all of East Asia. The second objective was to drive directly into the psyche of the Japanese. Since their first incursion of war, no one had ever been able to bring war to Japan itself. The Doolittle raid showed the people of Japan that the United States had NOT been crippled much less knocked out of the war. The US would strike down and there was more where that came from. A secondary win for the US was that since the planes had been launched from Aircraft Carriers, Yamamoto was able to persuade the War Council that a last, final destruction of those carriers must be carried out. The result of that was the rout of Japanese Carrier fleet at Midway. The consequences of the Doolittle raid were what allowed the war to turn in the US favor. Never underestimate what that raid accomplished!
The question "should the US be held accountable?" is absurd. Never. No apologies. No revisionist crap. The fact you even ask the question shows just how far we've drifted from those days of clarity. I fervently pray following generations never experience the desperation my father's generation endured. If they do, then they will learn the inanity of such questions.