That title is click baitey and completely misleading. A better one would be "How the Viper XC saved me when I tried to kill myself". That would still get you your clicks. Many mistakes were made and the wing managed to fly and recover in spite of them.
100% pilot error here! Evidence of a poor preflight without speedbar attached prior to taking off evidences the level of complacency here. Asymmetric trims at any time puts a twist through the span of the wing so the left side is differentially accelerated compared with the right and then you push speedbar. What exactly did you expect? Flying hands off mid-late afternoon thermals indicated by cumulus clouds all over the sky including evidence of overdevelopment and rain squalls about. This is a high performance wing in the hands of at best a complacent intermediate pilot. An asymmetric collapse and an accident just waiting to happen in my opinion so not surprised it did. The wing didn’t try to kill you, you tried to kill yourself. Takeaways, improve your preflight, don’t fly asymmetrically trimmed ever, be aware of the air around you and what conditions you’re flying in, respect thermic (read turbulent) activity and air, put your phone away (same as driving!) and respect aviation. This ain’t just mucking about.
I choose not to hook up my speedbar on launch because I have had my sister clips separate twice when launching and once the speedbar line went back and the clip went through my prop. Maybe it's a fluke but I don't trust them anymore when I'm launching. 🤷♂️
@@JustOutHereTinkering My little 2 cents: buy or make some Brummel covers. They're little "socks", like a fabric tube that's a stretch fit over the clips. Since they need to pull apart sideways to disengage, this means they can't disconnect by accident. I bought some for me and all my club members when I noticed one of my speedbar clips had separated during takeoff on a paraglider flight. Have you done an SIV yet? If not, I recommend doing so, preferably on your current wing and stick with one wing until you have exhausted it's capabilities before switching. I apologise if I have completely misread things, but from perusing your channel you appear to be a self-taught pilot with less than a year experience. If that's the case you probably should not be flying an "advanced" wing yet... Not to mention flying a new wing in clearly thermic conditions and going full speedbar on top of that. Speed is not worth your life, PPG is inherently slow, lean into that and enjoy a long flying career. Glad you're okay. [EDIT] - Asymmetric trim and using right brake on when accelerated and fully trimmed on that side? Yup, that'll do it. And just to point out, you were turning right still, using the brake handle... The trim discrepancy would have been making this harder as the left trimmer being a little in would have kept that side holding back compared to the right and trying to turn you left. [EDIT]
@Stephen Keen covers would work, I also thought about tiny carabiners but idk. Haven't done an SIV and can't do one on any wing I own. I have some level of interest in doing one but according to one if the top SIV instructors I did everything well in regards to going hands up and letting the wing reinflate on its own (rather intentionally or not lol) in this particular case... As for wings. I have a number of wings of all different levels. I have no plan of going back to a more beginner oriented wing and flying it for 100's of hours before moving to a slightly less beginner wing. I enjoy the wings I fly and I have no issues with the wings I own. But I won't be using speedbar on bumpy days like this again.... I have a bit more experience than you deduced at just over a year and over 100 hrs but every pilot is different and not everyone can or will fly a warp and some are ready sooner.
@@JustOutHereTinkering "can't do one on any wing I own" - why not? SIV is a great way to really get to know your wing, where the limits are, how it reacts and how to recover from different situations. Of course, that requires you staying on that same wing for a while. If you're swapping wings a lot, then it's best to stay well within the limits, because each will behave differently in different circumstances (with come commonality, but at different points and with differing effect). But yeah, each to their own. Risk is a personal assessment, but the punishment for getting it wrong is severe in this sport. Training is not just for learning how to fly.
@@stephenkeen6044 all the main SIV instructors around me won't allow you to do SIV courses on reflex gliders and want A wings or low B wings at the max. None of my wings fit that category.
I think there's a lot of just plain old complacency issues happening here uneven trims, sloppy application of bar, possible pressure on the right brake and your flying in less than ideal conditions fully accelerated. You may get away with this type of flying on the regular but why would you take on that risk level on a brand new wing and with a phone in your hand no less? This stuff is so irresponsible I don't care what level your at or how long you've been flying. Also ditch the phone when your spiraling into the ground your life is not worth the ~$1000 I don't mean to sound like an a hole but please learn from this.
@@JustOutHereTinkering at 9:52 you even state that you're going to "keep the right brake in your hand in case you need to do any course correction" - and you are trimmed fully fast. You would NOT want to use the brakes at all in that configuration, as it can certainly cause a collapse. You use the tip toggles instead to do course corrections. When your glider collapsed and went into that spiral, you were using brakes to try and correct it - while it was still trimmed fast. Use the D lines instead. But with that glider, never use any brakes when past the red line. By "sloppy bar application" he means that pressing the bar should be slow and even.
@Ryan Dinan ok so I don't use brakes on speedbar ever, even if it's not forbidden. I can't say with 100% certainty that I didn't accidently still have a bit of pressure still on the brake when applying the speedbar but I do know not to do it and will ensure I never do it again in the future if that was the case. I generally pull across my chest to activate tip steer more than brakes, and or just pull directly on the tip line itself (not in this particular case). However I don't understand how I can get the speedbar out far enough to engage the bar itself with my other foot and be any more even with it than I was. I have to use that loop to get it out far enough to get my foot on the actual bar. Is there some way to do this better than the way I did it? Also don't people use speedbar to make course corrections by letting up pressure with one foot all the time? Is this not a thing or bad info because I've seen it multiple times... As for wings. I don't care if people are impressed by my wing choice. I choose my wings because I like the speed of them and I like the light brake pressures. I might be able to do a wingover on a spyder but it's exhausting and a crap ton of pressure and work to do it and I enjoy the snappiness and light pressures of the hotter wings. That's why I choose them.
@9:45 “I’m going to keep the right brake toggle in my hand just in case I need to make any course correction or anything like that” You noted fluttering about 30 seconds later. You can see you’re using right brake to turn before the collapse. Configuration: trims fully out while beginning to press bar Page 4 of the ViperXC manual shows the trim diagram, it clearly shows that brakes SHOULD NOT be applied when trims out past the second red line.
I don't think I agree with your assessment. You clearly had your right toggle in your hand 16 seconds before you pushed bar and took the collapse. Then after the collapse you can see the toggle isn't on the keeper. Those new keepers do a pretty good job keeping the toggles on there unless you pull straight down, so I don't think it flew off on its own. I think it's more likely that you had the toggle in your hand and then let go during the mayhem. And, it was the right side that collapsed and you had the right trimmer out in the danger zone. You didn't even have half the bar pushed when you took the collapse. Of course we can't say for sure, but all of the evidence I see is pointing that direction. You're distracted by vlogging, holding your phone, trying to look at your speed, etc. I can see you not realizing you had brake pressure. I took Aviator's 20m ViperXC out for several demo flights at Salton and mashed full bar a lot with no issue. That one has the PK risers which make it easy to get back into "safe brake zone" when you let up. I loved it.
From a paraglider’s perspective, sometimes i see paramotor videos on youtube that really makes me scratch my head. Two hands on the wheel there bud… and, flight decks for sale at your local dealer.
As I've stated, if I can't use the brakes trimmed fully out, and I can't use the brakes on speedbar, then why should I have the brakes in my hands? What good are they going to do me if I'm not supposed to touch them?
might not be used to correct the course on speedbar but you should always have your hands at your brakes to be ready to catch the wing in the split second you need to chatch /stop the wing / control it actively if needed (prevent it from shooting after collapse / stop a spiral dive ect. ) . you give the best example ! you where just realy lucky! In case of an cascade / cravat / deep spiral you would have had no chance to finde your brakes in time! For beginners it might some RARE times be better to do nothing INSTAD of over reacting but to teach better be passive and pray is irresponsible. The goal must be to fly active at all times! And least but not last pleas consider the whole picture before you consider letting go of the brakes. An pleas do not blame the wing!!! Take responsibility for your lack in judging and active flying! The wing saved your ass. Witch should have been your duty as a pilot . Hope you learn from it ! As a Freeflying Pilot i do not understand why do you need a good / high performing wing? You got your glide angle cheating device strapped to your back anyway ;-) Happy landings @@JustOutHereTinkering
@bens.33 just because the title is cheeky doesn't mean I'm blaming the wing. My words in the video contradict everyone saying I'm blaming the wing. But we fly high performance wings because we fly faster, we roll faster and are more maneuverable, and efficiency relates to lower fuel burn which relates to longer flights, smaller amounts of fuel you're required to carry for your flights, and some almost negligible money savings in fuel burn (least concerning) asking why one would fly a faster wing is like asking why you would drive anything but a minivan because it gets you from point A to point B. You must understand why I imagine..... Lastly, freeflight wings don't have trims so I understand not knowing the varied rules surrounding them but I am not supposed to touch brakes trimmed out on this wing either... meaning before I could touch brakes I had to come off speedbar, trim in (requiring my hands) and then I could use brakes. Granted I ignored the rules regarding brakes and trim at the end of that due to a lack of time to trim in and I needed brake input but "theoretically shouldn't have". But this leads me to why I love the Power Attack system. It releases both simultaneously when you hit speedbar so removing speedbar is also trimming in at the same time. Makes this much safer in my opinion.
My email is JustoutHereTinkering@gmail.com. feel free to email a screenshot of that to me as I read that entire section and never saw it say anything of the sort. Of course that was 6 months ago so maybe they updated the manual
Looks like You were pulling right brake. You were in a right turn the whole time as your glider was turning to the right while applying bar. In theory a reflex glider becomes more collapse resistant when accelerated, not less. I doubt it was the weather. Hands off those brakes brotha.
The title of the video is really wrong. Respectfully, the responsability is on pilot s side, fully. It is an unstable day, very much so, I would expect thermal activity pretty strong, and not very organized at that altitude. I wouldn let go of my brakes for any reason, and therefore know what is happening with the pressure of the wing. If you are not properly trimmed, plus playing with accelerator and phone, is a very good formula for collapse. Did you do the right thing, after collapse? Well you didn t make things worse, but that is about it. Reading yo ur own comments I would suggest a change in attitude, if you want to fly safer. It is a very instructing video, though. At least for many of us. Thanks for that, good luck.
Did this exact run in Turkey 2 weeks ago. It's actually possible to stay on heading after you get whacked like that, but you have to be quick to get off bar and almost preempt the opposite brake input to stay straight. Looks more like 500-600 ft AGL at point of collapse, not 1000, You may have been at 1000 on your initial into wind on/bar speed pass, but you didn't maintain alt thru the turn to downwind, cuz your engine was idle during the turn. Never ever ever play around with a spicy (demo) wing demo below 2000 .....and my personal rule is to make sure I'm over water. You got real lucky here. You could be dead right now given the poor decisions made. Always fly hands on below 700ft, trimmed fast or not. Never use bar below 700 either....my personal rules to stay safe. Don't die bro.
Man that was a strong thermic day as a pg pilot we never take our hands off the brakes, on speed bar we use rear rises to control but again we never let our brakes go
Well hear me out on this one. I was told by many experienced pilots that the best thing i could have done to recover that is go hands up (so no brakes) and on speedbar you aren't supposed to use brakes at all, trimmed out not supposed to use brakes. So if my rules are DONT TOUCH THOSE AT ALL in my configuration then why should I have them in my hands lol
Maybe youse are right… but surely if trimmers don’t allow brake input they probably shouldn’t be used on a strong thermic day? As you can’t adjust them if you suffer a deflation. Where as speed bars easier to come off quickly..
@AMJB100000000 yes, here I agree. At least with Ozone wings, and quite a few others, they say if it gets rough trim in. Dudek says if it gets rough trim out but I wasn't on a Dudek so that's moot. Some wings say you can't use speedbar unless trimmed out, some don't care, and I'm not sure what the Viper says about that but that's one thing I love about the Power Attack system. You can be fully trimmed in and go full speed with just a press of your legs. But if trouble comes, get off speedbar and you are in the best configuration for collapse recovery. But this was not a power attack equipped wing. Oh well, you live and you learn
plowed fields like that let off nasty thermals even in the evening time 2hr window that I fly in. Let alone mid day with those giant cloud formations. Im already sketched out about trimming out in good weather let alone in shit like this. Glad you didnt die man scary shit
I fly my Viper XC in speedbar all the time. Looks like you weren't out of the right turn to downwind with brakes. Not allowed trimmed out and in speedbar. Should have read the manual.
I'm sorry but you are wrong, I don't know where you got the idea that you can not trim out and use speedbar. The manual explicitly states, and I QUOTE. " The full foot- operated accelerator range is always accessible irrespective of the trimmer position." That is STRAIGHT from the manual.....
@Gale Tyler Ok well theres a possibility of that but you can't see my brakes and you don't know for sure I was using the brake. That's perhaps a possibility but it's one of like 5 possible causes....
My only problem with your whole vid is the title. The wing didn't try to kill you. You were hanging it out on a new wing in less than ideal conditions. I can clearly see the right brake line and tip line very deep.
@Gale Tyler If the title was going for a flight on Viper XC you wouldn't have watched it... title is doing its job. In the video I state multiple times I do not blame the wing directly or Ozone... but fans of Ozone could feel attacked, as we can see... lol. I was not buried in a brake though, not sure I'm even strong enough to bury the brakes on this wing AND BTW I gave the wing credit in the video saying it reinflated on its own without any input from me. I gave it credit there.
On my 2015 Dudek WRC they say tip steering can be used all throughout the entire speed range , And i can use brakes all the way out till -1 -# 6 on the trimmers, My range goes all the way out to to # 13 . But with trimmers past #6 I am never to touch the brakes but use the tip steering balls like your Viper has . You had one trimmer fully out and one partially in which can be understandable to help your fly straight because of torque steer . But adding speed bar changes the form of the wing and i think when people are racing, that what they do , let the timms fully out , use only tip steer and bar . I think that paraglider wing can only handle so much pressure till it folds into itself and the only way for to regain is composer is to slow down,. Trims out, speed bar fully depressed and any little bump , can send it into a ball while trying to get it to do 50 mph . They say when the glider is in reflex mode is much safer , i have yet tried to be a crash dummy to try that out, also the reason i took up delta wing trike . Man if you was at 500 ft and the happened , you would have pounded in . I dont care what the manual says how to configure their glider any glider can collapse. Its up to us to think is 10mph more worth the risk ?
Incrediblely similar situation with the fr2 however mine was due to the risers sticking the c,d lines in place as I released the speed bar and went to brakes. For a snap roll thing. Crazy recovery. Barely barely did not hit the ground. Glad you are ok
I can tell you that this is brake induced. The viper5 is an amazing wing. Super nervous in the air sometimes. But its probably never going to collapse in the air on bar without pilot input.
@@SMarti018 Hi Scott, I dont do it for the gram... check it out if you have one. the plastic mallions will bind if you try and pull it on the strap. This issue is present on the 3 fr2s i have witnessed. removing the plastic keeper from the b, and c mallions almost fix the issue completely.
You said when it happened you didn't have brakes in your hands (even in the right hand - 13:43 ), but you did (10:37). Because you actually was making a right turn on full trim out, very probably on the speedbar as well, and in the bumpy weather conditions. You must have lost the toggle temporarily. So the advice is obvious: no brakes on full trim out (let alone on the speedbar) - use the tip steering. (Or put it other way around: no turns on speedbar) It had been an excellent decision earlier to make this test having enough altitude! Also: need to fly faster? - buy a delta or a ULA. Best Regards and thanks for the video! (Just noticed it has been a year since...)
@michroz yep I agree, could have accidently pulled brake but hard to know for sure. Definitely won't pull brake on speedbar again, and honestly I've stepped back from speedbar a bit entirely because I have had other unposted collapses on speedbar not touching brakes and in smooth air and it's just kind of soured me on the speedbar.
My dude, you have no business flying any of these wings at 10 months. 15 meter Warp!? RPM 2!? Viper!? If you can't get humble and honest with yourself about your skill lever, the wings will humble you (like in this vid) and you got off easy.
I'm not at 10 months, I've been flying over a year. And I dont subscribe to the "hour requirements" for a wing. I can agree I had no business being on speedbar this particular day and time. Side bar I got one of your throttles at bad apples. I'm a fan. As for some of those wings, I only flew the 15m warp twice and I dont think it's for me, too small. The 18m warp I have I love! Viper was a one time deal as well.
@Iris Paramotor, LLC I've watched pilots with 100's of hours flying for years and they can't consistently launch or land well... And I've seen people get it really quickly and have some really good skills after very few hours... I am not under the impression I'm the best pilot out there, not even close. But I'm a good pilot and I learn quickly. 🤷♂️ I obviously make some mistakes but everyone does. It's what you learn from them and do in the future that makes the difference.
Do you know what caused the collapse in the first place? what factors may have played a part in why your wing collapsed ??? and how many total hours PPg do you have under your belt ??
I can only speculate honestly. I think there was a pretty good gust associated with those rain storms heading our way. I think applying the speedbar during that time, when maybe a gust and a thermal combined or something, it all came to a head and caused the collapse. But I honestly can't know without a doubt. I don't think I was pulling brake, but I can't 100% rule out that i might have had a little pressure on it. The trims being uneven could have contributed. It's hard to know for sure. All we can really do is speculate.
Yes "speculation" is part of the process but there are many factors that require thinking about other than just equipment, and or experience, its mostly about having that little bag of tricks up your sleeve in knowing what can or can not offer us reasons for incidents to happen and what other factors can play into the equation for "stuff" to happen !!! what is nice is that you will never learn all those tricks over night and by keeping ones ears & eyes open with an inquiring mind allows that bag of tricks to grow 😊👍
There are many factors in being a good safe pilot, like in understanding different wings, in understanding met conditions on the day, and what the earth can offer in regards to how it plays an important part within those Met conditions at different times of the day, what might be good to fly at say 10am can be a lot different in regards to flying at say 2pm due to how the planet has heated up or cooled down, the type of terrain your flying over as in a grass paddock vs a plowed paddock or rocky ground vs grass or over water etc all these factors can help or hinder one flight and take experience and knowledge to understand the complexity of safe flight
I’m not a paramotor pilot I’m a free flight XC paraglider pilot, and looking at the sky that day looks like exactly the low pressure unstable kind of day we look for to have good thermals. I don’t know how much you know about thermals and how they are formed and how they release, but I’m guessing that the down wind edge of those dirt fields are releasing good thermals. I honestly don’t know how you guys can feel comfortable with your brakes stowed. Granted I’m usually flying in very unstable and thermic conditions but I never let go of my brakes. When on bar I use the handles on my C risers and definitely don’t pull brakes but my brakes are still in my hands. Honestly you seem like a somewhat complacent pilot, I’d be careful man.
Watching this what I see is your left hand is holding your phone which means your right hand is holding the brake toggle. The collapse happened on the side you were holding the brake toggle. The second you pushed in the speed bar the right side collapsed. This means you were pulling pressure on that right side even if you think you weren't. I don't even touch the brake toggles when I'm fully trimmed out using speed bar. I steer only with weight shift in that configuration. You were pushing the boundaries of that glider in questionable flying conditions.
There's certainly a chance that is the case I agree. I now do exactly what you said and stow my brakes when I'm using speedbar. Some people say I'm dumb for that but I am now guaranteeing that I don't pull brake if I'm not touching brake.
I'm so glad you're okay! I've read through the hundred comments and noticed that nobody mentioned this one thing: At the time of the collapse you can clearly hear that your engine was barely above idle speed. All wing collapses are caused by improper (local) wing shape for a given relative wind speed. What would be the point of using speedbar and brake? Any point in using speedbar at less than half throttle?
Well the only reason you would potentially use brake is to turn. But you're not supposed to on most wings and you are supposed you use tip steering. But with most hotter gliders having a 2d tie in that begs the question can you simply try and activate the tip by pulling across your chest or should you stow the brakes and just pull the tip line individually? But people criticize stowing brakes and then how do you keep your brakes and not pull any of them... as for throttle, if you want to descend even quicker you can use speedbar to pitch down and descend. You can come off it to pitch up and climb. You can use it to tighten a turn. Throttle just allows you to stay level or climb slightly while on speedbar.
@@JustOutHereTinkering Kinda looked like you were still turning when you went on bar. Hard to say. When it was recovering, was your leg caught in the bar? Right side looks like there was still some speed bar pulled in during the dive. Glad it came out well.
@@JustOutHereTinkering Glad you are safe. Showed your video to one of our local instructors for which I have great respect and who has almost two decades worth of experience especially on Ozone wings. Here is his take on this given the little bit of info the video alludes to. If you carefully look at the video a minute or so back you still had the right brake in your hand while doing your into wind run. You typically look at your magnets just before you clip your brake in, there is no evidence of this even after you have started turning (to the right) for your downwind run. This leads to an assumption that your right brake was still in your hand at the time when you started the process of accelerating with the speed bar. There is also a slight indication from the terrain below that you were turning to the right just before the collapse strengthening the suspicion that you were turning to the right by means of the right brake. Some other assumptions are that given the dip of the wing to right because of the start of the turn, the engagement of the speed bar and the weather conditions the deforming of the wing by means of the brake in its almost fully accelerated profile was enough to induce the collapse on such an advanced wing. My summation is that you lost the brake during the violent collapse leading you to believe that you were not holding it prior to the collapse. Of course if it was clipped in before you grabbed it to end the spiral this theory holds no water. So the real question is, was the brake flailing just before you grabbed it or did you pull it from its stowed position?
@Anthon Walters I don't have a concrete answer to that question unfortunately. However one thing I would like to note, since you (correctly) pointed out my tendency to look at the magnets before stowing my brakes. I also have a tendency to not really use my "brakes" to turn for the most part. If you watch my turn previously going back into wind I pull across my chest mostly in order to engage tip steer for almost any turn I do all the time. I only really ever use the brakes exclusively foot dragging or landing. 99% of the rest of the time I use a majority tip steering to make turns. And I should be able to use tip steering in that configuration. Now there is no separate tip toggle so it always puts a little pressure on brakes I think. But I don't know if even taking slack out of the brake line and just applying light pressure to a brake but not really deforming it much would cause a collapse.
Not from what I read, it says maximum speed is achieved at the red line with speedbar active and brakes shouldn't be used past that red line, but it says speedbar can be used at any point in the trim range.
Ozone wings manual specifically warn against applying brakes while using speedbar. Recommend you use the C-riser instead because too much brake will cause a collapse while using the speedbar. I can't tell in the video, but it looks like you pulled right brake while on speedbar. In slow-mo, your feet are up and you have right brake pulled...plus the speedbar is asymmetric making the problem worse. I think your collapse may be the result of not understanding the specifics of the wing. Based on your comments, I don't think you usually fly Ozone wings and have not learned the manufacturer's recommendations, especially the part on speedbar use. Different wings behave differently and jumping on an unfamilier wing with zero training, research, or browsing the manual and doing advanced things is asking for trouble. In no way was this a failure of the wing. This was the result of operating the wing outside the manufacturer's recommendations.
Dude, nice video, and thanks for the share ! In my opinion, you were taking too many risks : look at the sky : it's smoking ! ... You can expect strong thermals and turbulence at anytime with tis weather ! And you were flying low (I would say less than 1000 feet), you were flying accelerated, un-trimmed... and with your pone in your left hand, and your right hand out of the toggle ... what could possibly go wrong ? ;) The wing is NOT dangerous... you were taking some risks, and you had a great reaction !
No I don't necessarily think the wing is dangerous even though my clickbait title would suggest that. The weather wasn't ideal, I said as much, and the risks I was taking I didn't fully appreciate at the time. I've flown other wings in similar situations doing similar things and had no issue with it but every situation and wing is different. I have made some adjustments to my flying and decision making based on this incident!
Trimmers un even lack of control and asimetric on full bar and spicey conditions. And a bell end messing about at low altitudes with his phone 🤣🤣 glad you didn’t hard spiral in to the ground
Is it possible your speed bar was pulling past the pulleys . Did you check the length before pushing ? I’ve had something similar but worse ( got twisted in the lines happen to me . Same sit pushing speed bar while trimmed out but this wing wasn’t designed for that but instructor said it was . Anyway scary stuff
This was a demo wing and I promptly returned it when I landed. I'm not sure but I think it went out for more demos after I flew it so I don't think it had any issue at all but don't really know!
I did read the manual. And the manual says I can.... also, not saying its impossible, but I've seen a lot of wings that's say don't use speedbar fully trimmed in but I've never seen a wing that said don't use speedbar trimmed out.... and I have plans to, but an SIV isn't an end all be all you will now never have any issue ever again and you will react perfectly to every issue you come across....
The Ozone Viper 5 is an advanced, *non-certified glider. Not meant for beginner, nor even intermediate pilots. Not sure I agree that the manual says you can do several of the things demonstrated in this video. It does however mention what could happen if you do. From the Viper 5 manual: Pg 6, Trimmers, “The double red stitch lines indicate the maximum limit where it is safe to use the brakes for directional control without reducing the inherent stability of the profile. When flying faster than the red line, whether by further releasing the trimmers or applying additional speed bar, do not use the brakes, instead use the tip steering system for directional control.” There are several other places where this warning is stated. It was also mentioned that the air was choppy, several times prior to the collapse. Use of extended trims would seem unsafe in those conditions, and speedbar was added as well. I’m glad to hear you are OK, but from the video it appears that the collapse was violent enough that you were incapable of input. That allowed the glider to correct itself and save your life!
@Brian Garceau it was far more violent than I anticipated it would be. Genuinely took me by surprise and with how violent it was there was definitely no quick action I could have taken before I did really. Wing did indeed recover itself. The thing that gets me though, is why does ozone have a "dedicated XC wing" with no dedicated tip steering toggles. Seems like a miss on that particular point to me. 🤷♂️ But you know there is a manual specifically for the Viper XC right? The manual is a bit different for the XC vs the Viper 5
@@JustOutHereTinkering I was not aware of the two models of the Viper. The Viper XC manual contains the same language however, but on page 5. Regarding the ‘dedicated’ tip steering, I suppose one could untie the factory 2d on the Viper XC and add separate toggle handles. But having that already integrated on this advanced glider would make sense.
@Brian Garceau yes the language is similar, just some details with lines and some minor specifics are different. And I wouldn't want to untie the tip steering, I would want something similar to the Nucleon and many other wings, where you have a 2d tie in with an additional and separate tip steer toggle so when you're trimmed out you can activate only the tips.
Are you aware of what the DGAC rating is??? It has nothing to do with deflations, collapses, recovery from collapses, or the wings ability to resist collapsing. its essentially a basic flight and "weight stress test" to ensure the wing holds up to the forces safely without tearing in half or breaking lines and flies according to the way the manufacturer states it will in the manual.... Thats what it boils down to, so not really applicable in this particular case.
@brianclark2669 it's not garbage it's just a different rating. Some reflex gliders do have EN ratings. And there are reasons other than "they can't pass" why some reflex wings can't get an EN rating. But it sounds like you've got your mind made up so that's alright mate. Fly what makes you happy. Just don't wholeheartedly buy into one man's opinion of how everything except what he sells will kill you. It's a bit short sided as many have discovered.
No, i dont own a Dominator. Lol I have some sketchy wings with no EN ratings I fly conservatively, and I'm very aware of what im flying. I have some safe ones too with EN ratings. I understand there's some begginer wings with some reflex built in that can pass EN tests. Cool, but most are sketchy. There's a reason many SIV coaches won't even let you do a course on a reflex glider. How comfortable are you on your other reflex gliders with large deflations? Or haven't had any? I'll fly reflex in smooth air but soon as it gets bumpy at all I'm good on that. I think there's a lot of confirmation bias with reflex. Pilots thinking it's very stable and hasn't deflated before so it can't.
@brianclark2669 I'm not under the impression it can't deflate because I know it can. And by all means every glider is going to react differently. Ive been thrown around so hard on a Gin Carve I wanted on the ground immediately. It got so bad it was throwing me up, then to the side putting a wingtip just below the horizon, dropping me. I mean it was bad and that wing trucked on and kept me safe. I trust it with my life (obviously as I fly it lol) but not every wing is created equal and a lesser wing might have given up the ghost on me. I haven't taken any collapses quite like the one you saw here, this was the worst. Hope never to again
Looking at your vid there are a number of Met factors that I can see which may have been a big factor for the collapse, the cloud cover being puffy lumps of cloud indicate & tell me there are thermic conditions present on that day, the ground your flying over, and where you are in relation to the land mass, in that being a plowed field (hot ground) and right beside a large grass field (cool ground) both giving off totally different Met conditions next to each other, a line of trees between two plowed fields (a wall of turbulence) mixed with heated fields, (a rising air mass) you say there was some wind on that day (another turbulence factor) time of the day, and month of the year contribute to the Met conditions present etc lots to learn from this .. cheers and safe flights
You are far more observant of the surroundings and the conditions than I am, seeing all these things. That tells me I have some things to learn! You be safe too my friend.
Seems at the time of your collapse you were not on full speedbar. Do you think if you were still heavily loaded on full speedbar that could have prevented the collapse. I've flown in gnarly conditions full trim out and on full speed bar on my Dudek Driftair 22 and was able to fly through rougher air than what you are showing here. When full reflex is used the rigid leading edge is very difficult to collapse when rising air turbulence hits the wing. I can't say how turbulence coming down onto the wing from above might affect it, but I'd guess that's gonna be easier to collapse because a downward push + plus gravity seems like a combo punch!
Yes i was barely starting to apply speedbar. I don't know if being fully on the speedbar already would have made it better. There's a chance I pulled a small amount of brake but the brake pressures are heavy. There are 2 things I know about Ozone wings.. Heavy brake pressures and they lean towards better collapse recovery as opposed to collapse resistance. With heavy brake pressures I know I didn't pull brake "hard or far" but might have put some pressure on it. As for the recovery, the wing recovered well considering the circumstances i think but I'd have preferred not taking the collapse in the first place.
Too if you read the manual you arent suppose to go past the green line and get on speed bar. You dont gain anymore speed dumping the trimmers past the green line just more dangerous as you found out. Read the manual it's in the writing not the pictures. It states you will gain 0 extra speed with the trimmer past green and on speedbar without speedbar past green will speed you up with speedbar it doesnt make it faster just more unsafe.
The manual says max speed is achieved at the green line but it says the speed system is accessible in all trim configurations. Judson used speedbar fully trimmed out too so go complain to him 🤷♂️
The manual says you can use the full range of bar with trims in the fully SLOW position. It says they dont recommend bar when trimmers released beyond RED line. Judson had both hands off his brakes. I think you pulled a cunt hair of right brake as you started applying bar. Since thats the side that collapsed as you were pressing the bar out. Im gonna buy a 20m I think. Watch the aviator video of dude collapsing at like 10 ft. Same thing he used some brake on accident while pressing bar. I think its just so sensitive to any brake input at that point and i would say judson got lucky just for the fact he was completely hands off. Not trying to blame you or you skills. We all hate to admit it but 99% of stuff is pilot error oppossed to equipment and seeing your the 2nd guy to take a collapse on that wing doing basically the same thing as the guy who crashed.
Didn't you just start flying ppg? I'm surprised Aviator let you demo this wing? This is an en-D? You need to slow down and build air time before you get on an expert level wing... glad you survived and thanks for sharing this video.
Just started is a relative term. I've had a "quick progression" but I've been flying over a year, have over 100 hrs in the air, and I've flown and own hotter wings than this wing. Some folks fly a mojo for 5 years and some are moving on to Warps and Freerides in 1 year. Everyone is different.
Seems to me that the bad decision was test piloting a hot wing in iffy weather. Spicy wing or spicy weather but not both. Sure glad your OK. Dumped some of your luck bucket into your experience bucket. Maybe not much left in the former!
I'm not a paramotorist although I'm hoping to train this summer. One thing I'd question could you have had the phone fixed to some sort of lap flight desk instead of holding it in your hand? It would have been interesting if someone had captured the collapse filming from the ground. Thanks for posting, I'm glad you didn't suffer any real harm just a very scary fright.
Multiple things here... your left trimmer is not out as far as your right trimmer fully out... I noticed you kept turning pulling full brake while trimmed out... you hit bar and you were pulling right brake some abd your trimmers wouldn't set equally...
@Thomas Carrington if you watched then you would know I am not thrilled with the fact it was in my hand and I don't plan on doing that again. So thanks for reiterating. But I kept that thing in my hand through all of that. Deserves some points lol
Wow glad you are ok. I have often wondered to myself what I would do if I took a collapse trimmed out and on speedbar. I kinda excepted the fact that I was gonna try to let it catch itself but I was gonna apply brakes because you try whatever you can yo recover
Yes very scary situation, and best thing you can do (according to advice I've received) is to go hands up and let the wing reinflate. Try to trim in if you can but that's not possible when you're getting thrown around like crazy!
This is available on my gopro however you have to turn the gopro on, connect to satellites, and then start recording. If you hit record to turn the camera on, that feature won't come up...
as others stated - sure looks like brakes were used while trimmed out and with bar which is not advised. You stated that you had one brake in your right hand and your phone in the other. If that is the case, it wasn't "the wing trying to kill you" it was you. Maybe consider renaming the video.
I fly 2 liners XC and then I’m hands off the breaks I know I’m taking xtra risk. Good job having altitude when hands off or it would truly be a crash video
At @10:51 you can see your right hand to about your ears into the brakes, look at the reflection on the phone. hand in the brake toggle and pulling down pretty hard.
Glad you were high enough. I don't fly reflex and never will. Never saw any advantage to overly complicated risers and tip steering. Simple non reflex wings are much safer. Why take unnecessary risk?
Non-reflex gliders aren't immune to collapse obviously so they arent without any risk. And arguably they are more prone to collapse but recover better. Idk I don't think I've flown a Non-reflex glider if I'm honest so I'm not an expert on them by any means... everyone has their thing though. Some people would watch Mitch G flying speedbar 2ft off the ground and poop themselves lol. Different strokes!
looks to me that you were still in a right turn(look at your feet against the ground) and 10ish seconds before you can see that you were turning using the brake, all Ozone wings I know of you shouldn't be using brake fully trimmed out and especially not using speed bar. glad everything worked out and you were uninjured, safe flights my friend..
Even though in my head I don't think I was still pulling any pressure on the brake, I can't rule it out. One thing I noticed is although in 1 instance I pulled way across my chest to engage tip in the last turn it doesn't seem like I really did that. I will be sure to not make that mistake again.
Interesting that one trimmer on the (left side) is pull in and set at about 1/2 speed, while the other side (right side) is fully open full speed, and is pushing speed bar on (A risers pulled down) when the wing collapsed and over a plowed field with sunshine & clouds (so possibly thermic conditions) pilot error is a big plus in this incident, not really anything to do with the wing (set in that configuration) go & learn about wings and how they work may be a good call
I wouldn't exactly say that's half speed. The right is 100% let out and the left is like 90%... thermals were relatively low because weather had been cloudy and drizzly all morning. Gusty winds were kind of a factor though. Idk why the trimmer didn't fully release and my bad for not noticing. I regularly fly with left trimmer slower than right to correct some torque and that's not necessarily a problem but on speedbar it might be worse idk.... Don't know how studying wings would help here though...
@@JustOutHereTinkering different wings fly quite different in the way they are setup , and not all wings are suited to PPG vs PG, therefore knowing what the wing is designed for is paramount to safety, each design of wing behaves in the way it was designed and manufactures do put out good info about each model because of these differences in flight mode, so learning about each model is up to the pilot before flying and jumping in on a demo can be a killer if one hasn't taken the time to really know what a wing can & can not do without prior knowledge etc be safe and go learn a heap about the wings you choose to fly, and fly that wing a lot before jumping to fast into a high performance wing with limited experience
@Brent G. Cameron I generally don't fly wings I don't know anything about. But I certainly agree that all wings fly differently, and manuals for wings can be a very valuable tool! Definitely best to know the Do's and Dont's before flying a new wing...
Wow glad you are okay, it’s never confidence inspiring to take a collapse like that and not know what caused it… I’d be curious to know if the brake lines were altered/shortened and the brakes were deflecting while trimmed out on bar and have someone check for brake deflection while trimming out and going into bar. In theory the wing should be more stable and collapse resistant while on bar than off so if it was a gust that caused it then it definitely would have collapsed while off bar and trimmed in (just recover better). Also I cannot imagine one trimmer being slightly off from the other would cause a collapse and if it is then IMO that’s a death trap and that’s not a wing I would ever want to fly! I’ll steer my glider with my speed bar by raising one foot or the other and never had a issue collapsing a wing that way.
Well, according to the manual it says font shorten the brake toggles. I don't imagine Aviator would have shortened them, and I didn't see any indication of that but one thing I can tell you is Ozone says not to use speedbar in any bumpy turbulent air or at low altitudes.
@@JustOutHereTinkering Yea I mean they all basically say that for liability reasons 😅. It’s a demo correct? I kept pausing the video when you turned to your risers. I own a Ozone speedster with a similar bungee connected to the brake line that allows for more free play in the brakes when fully accelerate. I have not flown that wing yet but I can say that bungee in relation to my speedster sure does look elevated indicating to me the brake lines are getting taut. If that’s a demo I’d be sure to have someone at aviator check the brake length before letting someone else demo it.
If you want to go fast, get an airplane. Paragliding is for slow flying. I think you are idiotic for trying to fly at the speed limit of a piece of cloth holding you up. If you had been at 800 ft, you'd be dead.
@@JustOutHereTinkering SO for my own edification, how exactly does one conduct an "efficiency test"? and what metrics are you measuring and against WHAT? and... is it a pass fail thing or is there a percentage of another wing that is considered the benchmark? I mean like 73.4% of a boomerang 11? I assume you use some super scientific, highly repeatable, single variable, mean statistical analysis?
@Yankee Paramotor idk why you are being so hostile, never said a cross word to you. No need to be rude man... they are done to the best of my ability, flying straight and level and measuring the rpm of the motor, compared to the speed traveled doing it both trimmed in and out and then I have a collection of different wings that I have all these numbers on. They can be compared. If I'm flying at 30mph trimmed in on 2 different wings and one is taking 5600rpm to fly straight and level and the other only takes 5200rpm then that wing is more efficient in that configuration...
I've also got climb rate tests which do give some insight into that. I tried glide slope tests but they just weren't consistent enough to be worth anything.
@@JustOutHereTinkering OK, so there is at least some method to your madness... However, I often hear that term "efficiency" thrown around, or... "that wing is SO...efficient" and I say BS. There are way too many variables for your collection of numbers to be significantly meaningful. What? Do you plan to publish the "End all guide to PPG wing efficiency"? A New York Times best seller that will be the reference standard for years to come? There's really no need to measure these things anyhow. A low drag wing will will burn less fuel and require fewer RPMs to stay aloft, than a high drag wing. On the other hand, the same wing flown at a high wing loading vs. a low wing loading will require two different amounts of thrust and therefore fuel burn for the same distance flown or altitude attained, will be more for carrying more weight. Why am I being hostile? Because you are throwing terms on subjects around as if you are an authority on those subjects. I am convinced that your analysis of your own collapse at Hodges field is entirely wrong. You were quite fortunate not to have become a statistic. FYI several posts about your channel have been made (FB forum), where other tenured PPGers commented that your seeming know it all attitude about flying, is bad juju. They've warned others NOT to take your advice. I too was "self trained", but I brought a wealth of aviation experience to the table FIRST. I have forgotten more aerodynamic principles than are taught in most PPG classes... but I'm not here to blown my own horn. Instead, I'm in the camp of never wanting to see another injury nor fatality of a fellow PPG lover getting hurt or killed. That will make me "unpopular"going forward, but I'm OK with that. I've had enough of passively thinking "It's none of my business" only to regret not speaking up and in a few cases, really regret not speaking up loud and harshly. It has happened several times. Fiends, and fringe acquaintances to me, hurt injured & even killed because I KEPT MY MOUTH SHUT when I SHOULD HAVE SPOKEN UP. The choices you make in this entire video could fill an entire 8 hour recurrent class on "what not to do" in PPG decision making. Your loaner glider didn't try to kill you. Your decision processes did...
You used the speedbar with the trimmers out, completely pilot error there, have you never used a performance wing before? READ THE MANUAL! It takes 5 mins.
I can’t tell if you are trolling or not but yes you absolutely can use speed bar with trimmers out. Maybe you mean using brakes while trimmed out on bar?
@Scott Martin dude also emailed me saying you can't use speedbar trimmed out. Of course if he could read he would find out otherwise. You are absolutely right with brakes though. Can not use brakes past red line, or when speedbar is active.
@I Really Do It that's what I do. I don't touch brakes when I'm on speedbar, ever... If I'm trimmed out I'll use the toggles but pull across my chest to engage tip steering primarily, but I dont use any brake at all on speedbar.
Manual warns says that maximum speed is achieved with the trimmers at the green line and the accelerator deployed. You do you our kid but to me that’s pretty clear, to be fully trimmed out on one side, 3/4 trimmed out on the other and fully accelerated is going to collapse your wing. Add to this your brake activity, go figure. Sorry you don’t like the analysis, perhaps don’t ask if anyone can tell why it happened, pilot error, simple.
So the title goes this wing tried to kill me yet when shit goes wrong all you say is bad idea, bad idea, bad idea??? I believe we know who's at fault here. Thumbs down
That title is click baitey and completely misleading. A better one would be "How the Viper XC saved me when I tried to kill myself". That would still get you your clicks.
Many mistakes were made and the wing managed to fly and recover in spite of them.
Making a right turn using brake, trimmed out while pressing bar in shitty conditions. Definitely not the fault of the wing. Glad you’re ok homie
Let the feeble minded weed themselves out the gene pool. If he keeps blaming equiptment one day his content won't be clogging up my feed with 🗑 videos
100% pilot error here! Evidence of a poor preflight without speedbar attached prior to taking off evidences the level of complacency here. Asymmetric trims at any time puts a twist through the span of the wing so the left side is differentially accelerated compared with the right and then you push speedbar. What exactly did you expect? Flying hands off mid-late afternoon thermals indicated by cumulus clouds all over the sky including evidence of overdevelopment and rain squalls about. This is a high performance wing in the hands of at best a complacent intermediate pilot. An asymmetric collapse and an accident just waiting to happen in my opinion so not surprised it did. The wing didn’t try to kill you, you tried to kill yourself. Takeaways, improve your preflight, don’t fly asymmetrically trimmed ever, be aware of the air around you and what conditions you’re flying in, respect thermic (read turbulent) activity and air, put your phone away (same as driving!) and respect aviation. This ain’t just mucking about.
I choose not to hook up my speedbar on launch because I have had my sister clips separate twice when launching and once the speedbar line went back and the clip went through my prop. Maybe it's a fluke but I don't trust them anymore when I'm launching. 🤷♂️
@@JustOutHereTinkering My little 2 cents: buy or make some Brummel covers. They're little "socks", like a fabric tube that's a stretch fit over the clips. Since they need to pull apart sideways to disengage, this means they can't disconnect by accident. I bought some for me and all my club members when I noticed one of my speedbar clips had separated during takeoff on a paraglider flight.
Have you done an SIV yet? If not, I recommend doing so, preferably on your current wing and stick with one wing until you have exhausted it's capabilities before switching.
I apologise if I have completely misread things, but from perusing your channel you appear to be a self-taught pilot with less than a year experience. If that's the case you probably should not be flying an "advanced" wing yet... Not to mention flying a new wing in clearly thermic conditions and going full speedbar on top of that. Speed is not worth your life, PPG is inherently slow, lean into that and enjoy a long flying career. Glad you're okay.
[EDIT] - Asymmetric trim and using right brake on when accelerated and fully trimmed on that side? Yup, that'll do it. And just to point out, you were turning right still, using the brake handle... The trim discrepancy would have been making this harder as the left trimmer being a little in would have kept that side holding back compared to the right and trying to turn you left. [EDIT]
@Stephen Keen covers would work, I also thought about tiny carabiners but idk. Haven't done an SIV and can't do one on any wing I own. I have some level of interest in doing one but according to one if the top SIV instructors I did everything well in regards to going hands up and letting the wing reinflate on its own (rather intentionally or not lol) in this particular case... As for wings. I have a number of wings of all different levels. I have no plan of going back to a more beginner oriented wing and flying it for 100's of hours before moving to a slightly less beginner wing. I enjoy the wings I fly and I have no issues with the wings I own. But I won't be using speedbar on bumpy days like this again....
I have a bit more experience than you deduced at just over a year and over 100 hrs but every pilot is different and not everyone can or will fly a warp and some are ready sooner.
@@JustOutHereTinkering "can't do one on any wing I own" - why not? SIV is a great way to really get to know your wing, where the limits are, how it reacts and how to recover from different situations. Of course, that requires you staying on that same wing for a while. If you're swapping wings a lot, then it's best to stay well within the limits, because each will behave differently in different circumstances (with come commonality, but at different points and with differing effect).
But yeah, each to their own. Risk is a personal assessment, but the punishment for getting it wrong is severe in this sport. Training is not just for learning how to fly.
@@stephenkeen6044 all the main SIV instructors around me won't allow you to do SIV courses on reflex gliders and want A wings or low B wings at the max. None of my wings fit that category.
Should be called “how I tried to kill myself on a super stable wing”, proving without a doubt that any wing can fall.
I think there's a lot of just plain old complacency issues happening here uneven trims, sloppy application of bar, possible pressure on the right brake and your flying in less than ideal conditions fully accelerated. You may get away with this type of flying on the regular but why would you take on that risk level on a brand new wing and with a phone in your hand no less? This stuff is so irresponsible I don't care what level your at or how long you've been flying. Also ditch the phone when your spiraling into the ground your life is not worth the ~$1000 I don't mean to sound like an a hole but please learn from this.
Not throwing my phone at 1000ft lol. I didn't pull my right brake. And don't get what you mean by sloppy bar application
@@JustOutHereTinkering at 9:52 you even state that you're going to "keep the right brake in your hand in case you need to do any course correction" - and you are trimmed fully fast. You would NOT want to use the brakes at all in that configuration, as it can certainly cause a collapse. You use the tip toggles instead to do course corrections. When your glider collapsed and went into that spiral, you were using brakes to try and correct it - while it was still trimmed fast. Use the D lines instead. But with that glider, never use any brakes when past the red line. By "sloppy bar application" he means that pressing the bar should be slow and even.
@Ryan Dinan ok so I don't use brakes on speedbar ever, even if it's not forbidden. I can't say with 100% certainty that I didn't accidently still have a bit of pressure still on the brake when applying the speedbar but I do know not to do it and will ensure I never do it again in the future if that was the case. I generally pull across my chest to activate tip steer more than brakes, and or just pull directly on the tip line itself (not in this particular case). However I don't understand how I can get the speedbar out far enough to engage the bar itself with my other foot and be any more even with it than I was. I have to use that loop to get it out far enough to get my foot on the actual bar. Is there some way to do this better than the way I did it? Also don't people use speedbar to make course corrections by letting up pressure with one foot all the time? Is this not a thing or bad info because I've seen it multiple times...
As for wings. I don't care if people are impressed by my wing choice. I choose my wings because I like the speed of them and I like the light brake pressures. I might be able to do a wingover on a spyder but it's exhausting and a crap ton of pressure and work to do it and I enjoy the snappiness and light pressures of the hotter wings. That's why I choose them.
@9:45 “I’m going to keep the right brake toggle in my hand just in case I need to make any course correction or anything like that”
You noted fluttering about 30 seconds later. You can see you’re using right brake to turn before the collapse.
Configuration: trims fully out while beginning to press bar
Page 4 of the ViperXC manual shows the trim diagram, it clearly shows that brakes SHOULD NOT be applied when trims out past the second red line.
I don't think I agree with your assessment. You clearly had your right toggle in your hand 16 seconds before you pushed bar and took the collapse. Then after the collapse you can see the toggle isn't on the keeper. Those new keepers do a pretty good job keeping the toggles on there unless you pull straight down, so I don't think it flew off on its own. I think it's more likely that you had the toggle in your hand and then let go during the mayhem. And, it was the right side that collapsed and you had the right trimmer out in the danger zone. You didn't even have half the bar pushed when you took the collapse. Of course we can't say for sure, but all of the evidence I see is pointing that direction. You're distracted by vlogging, holding your phone, trying to look at your speed, etc. I can see you not realizing you had brake pressure.
I took Aviator's 20m ViperXC out for several demo flights at Salton and mashed full bar a lot with no issue. That one has the PK risers which make it easy to get back into "safe brake zone" when you let up. I loved it.
I don't always use full bar, but when I do, I like to do it on a new wing, in rough air, with no hands 🤣FAFO 🤪
First thing to do when you get a collapse: let go of both brakes. NOT.
Second thing to do is blame the wing.
FYI: I race on an Ozone Enzo 3.
Misleading title. That was poor piloting decisions. Flying an advanced wing at the edge of its performance... With a phone in your hand.
From a paraglider’s
perspective, sometimes i see paramotor videos on youtube that really makes me scratch my head. Two hands on the wheel there bud… and, flight decks for sale at your local dealer.
As I've stated, if I can't use the brakes trimmed fully out, and I can't use the brakes on speedbar, then why should I have the brakes in my hands? What good are they going to do me if I'm not supposed to touch them?
might not be used to correct the course on speedbar but you should always have your hands at your brakes to be ready to catch the wing in the split second you need to chatch /stop the wing / control it actively if needed (prevent it from shooting after collapse / stop a spiral dive ect. ) . you give the best example ! you where just realy lucky! In case of an cascade / cravat / deep spiral you would have had no chance to finde your brakes in time!
For beginners it might some RARE times be better to do nothing INSTAD of over reacting but to teach better be passive and pray is irresponsible. The goal must be to fly active at all times! And least but not last pleas consider the whole picture before you consider letting go of the brakes. An pleas do not blame the wing!!! Take responsibility for your lack in judging and active flying! The wing saved your ass. Witch should have been your duty as a pilot . Hope you learn from it !
As a Freeflying Pilot i do not understand why do you need a good / high performing wing? You got your glide angle cheating device strapped to your back anyway ;-)
Happy landings @@JustOutHereTinkering
@bens.33 just because the title is cheeky doesn't mean I'm blaming the wing. My words in the video contradict everyone saying I'm blaming the wing. But we fly high performance wings because we fly faster, we roll faster and are more maneuverable, and efficiency relates to lower fuel burn which relates to longer flights, smaller amounts of fuel you're required to carry for your flights, and some almost negligible money savings in fuel burn (least concerning)
asking why one would fly a faster wing is like asking why you would drive anything but a minivan because it gets you from point A to point B. You must understand why I imagine.....
Lastly, freeflight wings don't have trims so I understand not knowing the varied rules surrounding them but I am not supposed to touch brakes trimmed out on this wing either... meaning before I could touch brakes I had to come off speedbar, trim in (requiring my hands) and then I could use brakes. Granted I ignored the rules regarding brakes and trim at the end of that due to a lack of time to trim in and I needed brake input but "theoretically shouldn't have". But this leads me to why I love the Power Attack system. It releases both simultaneously when you hit speedbar so removing speedbar is also trimming in at the same time. Makes this much safer in my opinion.
We do not recommend releasing the trimmers beyond the red line whilst using the accelerator system.
This is in the Manual for the Ozone Viper XC
My email is JustoutHereTinkering@gmail.com. feel free to email a screenshot of that to me as I read that entire section and never saw it say anything of the sort. Of course that was 6 months ago so maybe they updated the manual
Glade you're ok...thx for posting....
Looks like You were pulling right brake. You were in a right turn the whole time as your glider was turning to the right while applying bar.
In theory a reflex glider becomes more collapse resistant when accelerated, not less. I doubt it was the weather.
Hands off those brakes brotha.
The title of the video is really wrong. Respectfully, the responsability is on pilot s side, fully. It is an unstable day, very much so, I would expect thermal activity pretty strong, and not very organized at that altitude. I wouldn let go of my brakes for any reason, and therefore know what is happening with the pressure of the wing. If you are not properly trimmed, plus playing with accelerator and phone, is a very good formula for collapse. Did you do the right thing, after collapse? Well you didn t make things worse, but that is about it. Reading yo
ur own comments I would suggest a change in attitude, if you want to fly safer. It is a very instructing video, though. At least for many of us. Thanks for that, good luck.
Did this exact run in Turkey 2 weeks ago. It's actually possible to stay on heading after you get whacked like that, but you have to be quick to get off bar and almost preempt the opposite brake input to stay straight. Looks more like 500-600 ft AGL at point of collapse, not 1000, You may have been at 1000 on your initial into wind on/bar speed pass, but you didn't maintain alt thru the turn to downwind, cuz your engine was idle during the turn. Never ever ever play around with a spicy (demo) wing demo below 2000 .....and my personal rule is to make sure I'm over water. You got real lucky here. You could be dead right now given the poor decisions made. Always fly hands on below 700ft, trimmed fast or not. Never use bar below 700 either....my personal rules to stay safe. Don't die bro.
Man that was a strong thermic day as a pg pilot we never take our hands off the brakes, on speed bar we use rear rises to control but again we never let our brakes go
Well hear me out on this one. I was told by many experienced pilots that the best thing i could have done to recover that is go hands up (so no brakes) and on speedbar you aren't supposed to use brakes at all, trimmed out not supposed to use brakes. So if my rules are DONT TOUCH THOSE AT ALL in my configuration then why should I have them in my hands lol
Maybe youse are right… but surely if trimmers don’t allow brake input they probably shouldn’t be used on a strong thermic day? As you can’t adjust them if you suffer a deflation. Where as speed bars easier to come off quickly..
@AMJB100000000 yes, here I agree. At least with Ozone wings, and quite a few others, they say if it gets rough trim in. Dudek says if it gets rough trim out but I wasn't on a Dudek so that's moot. Some wings say you can't use speedbar unless trimmed out, some don't care, and I'm not sure what the Viper says about that but that's one thing I love about the Power Attack system. You can be fully trimmed in and go full speed with just a press of your legs. But if trouble comes, get off speedbar and you are in the best configuration for collapse recovery. But this was not a power attack equipped wing. Oh well, you live and you learn
plowed fields like that let off nasty thermals even in the evening time 2hr window that I fly in. Let alone mid day with those giant cloud formations. Im already sketched out about trimming out in good weather let alone in shit like this. Glad you didnt die man scary shit
Wings need to be Loaded for your Weight, a larger Floaty wing has tendency to Collapse much easier...
This wing was an 18m which I was 100% loaded on.
I fly my Viper XC in speedbar all the time. Looks like you weren't out of the right turn to downwind with brakes. Not allowed trimmed out and in speedbar. Should have read the manual.
I'm sorry but you are wrong, I don't know where you got the idea that you can not trim out and use speedbar. The manual explicitly states, and I QUOTE. " The full foot- operated accelerator range is always accessible irrespective of the trimmer position."
That is STRAIGHT from the manual.....
I meant using brakes... which you were doing
@Gale Tyler Ok well theres a possibility of that but you can't see my brakes and you don't know for sure I was using the brake. That's perhaps a possibility but it's one of like 5 possible causes....
My only problem with your whole vid is the title. The wing didn't try to kill you. You were hanging it out on a new wing in less than ideal conditions. I can clearly see the right brake line and tip line very deep.
@Gale Tyler If the title was going for a flight on Viper XC you wouldn't have watched it... title is doing its job. In the video I state multiple times I do not blame the wing directly or Ozone... but fans of Ozone could feel attacked, as we can see... lol. I was not buried in a brake though, not sure I'm even strong enough to bury the brakes on this wing
AND BTW I gave the wing credit in the video saying it reinflated on its own without any input from me. I gave it credit there.
On my 2015 Dudek WRC they say tip steering can be used all throughout the entire speed range , And i can use brakes all the way out till -1 -# 6 on the trimmers, My range goes all the way out to to # 13 . But with trimmers past #6 I am never to touch the brakes but use the tip steering balls like your Viper has . You had one trimmer fully out and one partially in which can be understandable to help your fly straight because of torque steer . But adding speed bar changes the form of the wing and i think when people are racing, that what they do , let the timms fully out , use only tip steer and bar . I think that paraglider wing can only handle so much pressure till it folds into itself and the only way for to regain is composer is to slow down,. Trims out, speed bar fully depressed and any little bump , can send it into a ball while trying to get it to do 50 mph . They say when the glider is in reflex mode is much safer , i have yet tried to be a crash dummy to try that out, also the reason i took up delta wing trike . Man if you was at 500 ft and the happened , you would have pounded in . I dont care what the manual says how to configure their glider any glider can collapse. Its up to us to think is 10mph more worth the risk ?
Incrediblely similar situation with the fr2 however mine was due to the risers sticking the c,d lines in place as I released the speed bar and went to brakes. For a snap roll thing. Crazy recovery. Barely barely did not hit the ground. Glad you are ok
I can tell you that this is brake induced. The viper5 is an amazing wing. Super nervous in the air sometimes. But its probably never going to collapse in the air on bar without pilot input.
Where is this video for the FR2?
@@SMarti018 Hi Scott, I dont do it for the gram... check it out if you have one. the plastic mallions will bind if you try and pull it on the strap. This issue is present on the 3 fr2s i have witnessed. removing the plastic keeper from the b, and c mallions almost fix the issue completely.
You said when it happened you didn't have brakes in your hands (even in the right hand - 13:43 ), but you did (10:37). Because you actually was making a right turn on full trim out, very probably on the speedbar as well, and in the bumpy weather conditions. You must have lost the toggle temporarily. So the advice is obvious: no brakes on full trim out (let alone on the speedbar) - use the tip steering. (Or put it other way around: no turns on speedbar) It had been an excellent decision earlier to make this test having enough altitude! Also: need to fly faster? - buy a delta or a ULA. Best Regards and thanks for the video!
(Just noticed it has been a year since...)
@michroz yep I agree, could have accidently pulled brake but hard to know for sure. Definitely won't pull brake on speedbar again, and honestly I've stepped back from speedbar a bit entirely because I have had other unposted collapses on speedbar not touching brakes and in smooth air and it's just kind of soured me on the speedbar.
My dude, you have no business flying any of these wings at 10 months. 15 meter Warp!? RPM 2!? Viper!? If you can't get humble and honest with yourself about your skill lever, the wings will humble you (like in this vid) and you got off easy.
I'm not at 10 months, I've been flying over a year. And I dont subscribe to the "hour requirements" for a wing. I can agree I had no business being on speedbar this particular day and time. Side bar I got one of your throttles at bad apples. I'm a fan.
As for some of those wings, I only flew the 15m warp twice and I dont think it's for me, too small. The 18m warp I have I love! Viper was a one time deal as well.
@@JustOutHereTinkering we get it. You think you have above average skill/experience.
@Iris Paramotor, LLC I've watched pilots with 100's of hours flying for years and they can't consistently launch or land well... And I've seen people get it really quickly and have some really good skills after very few hours... I am not under the impression I'm the best pilot out there, not even close. But I'm a good pilot and I learn quickly. 🤷♂️ I obviously make some mistakes but everyone does. It's what you learn from them and do in the future that makes the difference.
Glad you had the altitude and made it through alive
Do you know what caused the collapse in the first place? what factors may have played a part in why your wing collapsed ??? and how many total hours PPg do you have under your belt ??
I can only speculate honestly. I think there was a pretty good gust associated with those rain storms heading our way. I think applying the speedbar during that time, when maybe a gust and a thermal combined or something, it all came to a head and caused the collapse. But I honestly can't know without a doubt. I don't think I was pulling brake, but I can't 100% rule out that i might have had a little pressure on it. The trims being uneven could have contributed. It's hard to know for sure. All we can really do is speculate.
Yes "speculation" is part of the process but there are many factors that require thinking about other than just equipment, and or experience, its mostly about having that little bag of tricks up your sleeve in knowing what can or can not offer us reasons for incidents to happen and what other factors can play into the equation for "stuff" to happen !!! what is nice is that you will never learn all those tricks over night and by keeping ones ears & eyes open with an inquiring mind allows that bag of tricks to grow 😊👍
This is what Anthony Vella's crash video would have looked like if he had a safe cushion of altitude.
pilot errors. live and learn or learn and live.
There are many factors in being a good safe pilot, like in understanding different wings, in understanding met conditions on the day, and what the earth can offer in regards to how it plays an important part within those Met conditions at different times of the day, what might be good to fly at say 10am can be a lot different in regards to flying at say 2pm due to how the planet has heated up or cooled down, the type of terrain your flying over as in a grass paddock vs a plowed paddock or rocky ground vs grass or over water etc all these factors can help or hinder one flight and take experience and knowledge to understand the complexity of safe flight
I’m not a paramotor pilot I’m a free flight XC paraglider pilot, and looking at the sky that day looks like exactly the low pressure unstable kind of day we look for to have good thermals. I don’t know how much you know about thermals and how they are formed and how they release, but I’m guessing that the down wind edge of those dirt fields are releasing good thermals. I honestly don’t know how you guys can feel comfortable with your brakes stowed. Granted I’m usually flying in very unstable and thermic conditions but I never let go of my brakes. When on bar I use the handles on my C risers and definitely don’t pull brakes but my brakes are still in my hands. Honestly you seem like a somewhat complacent pilot, I’d be careful man.
Watching this what I see is your left hand is holding your phone which means your right hand is holding the brake toggle. The collapse happened on the side you were holding the brake toggle. The second you pushed in the speed bar the right side collapsed. This means you were pulling pressure on that right side even if you think you weren't. I don't even touch the brake toggles when I'm fully trimmed out using speed bar. I steer only with weight shift in that configuration. You were pushing the boundaries of that glider in questionable flying conditions.
There's certainly a chance that is the case I agree. I now do exactly what you said and stow my brakes when I'm using speedbar. Some people say I'm dumb for that but I am now guaranteeing that I don't pull brake if I'm not touching brake.
I'm so glad you're okay! I've read through the hundred comments and noticed that nobody mentioned this one thing:
At the time of the collapse you can clearly hear that your engine was barely above idle speed.
All wing collapses are caused by improper (local) wing shape for a given relative wind speed. What would be the point of using speedbar and brake? Any point in using speedbar at less than half throttle?
Well the only reason you would potentially use brake is to turn. But you're not supposed to on most wings and you are supposed you use tip steering. But with most hotter gliders having a 2d tie in that begs the question can you simply try and activate the tip by pulling across your chest or should you stow the brakes and just pull the tip line individually? But people criticize stowing brakes and then how do you keep your brakes and not pull any of them... as for throttle, if you want to descend even quicker you can use speedbar to pitch down and descend. You can come off it to pitch up and climb. You can use it to tighten a turn. Throttle just allows you to stay level or climb slightly while on speedbar.
Any chance you still were holding right brake just coming out of your turn?
Don't think so
@@JustOutHereTinkering Kinda looked like you were still turning when you went on bar. Hard to say.
When it was recovering, was your leg caught in the bar? Right side looks like there was still some speed bar pulled in during the dive.
Glad it came out well.
@@JustOutHereTinkering Glad you are safe. Showed your video to one of our local instructors for which I have great respect and who has almost two decades worth of experience especially on Ozone wings. Here is his take on this given the little bit of info the video alludes to. If you carefully look at the video a minute or so back you still had the right brake in your hand while doing your into wind run. You typically look at your magnets just before you clip your brake in, there is no evidence of this even after you have started turning (to the right) for your downwind run. This leads to an assumption that your right brake was still in your hand at the time when you started the process of accelerating with the speed bar. There is also a slight indication from the terrain below that you were turning to the right just before the collapse strengthening the suspicion that you were turning to the right by means of the right brake. Some other assumptions are that given the dip of the wing to right because of the start of the turn, the engagement of the speed bar and the weather conditions the deforming of the wing by means of the brake in its almost fully accelerated profile was enough to induce the collapse on such an advanced wing. My summation is that you lost the brake during the violent collapse leading you to believe that you were not holding it prior to the collapse. Of course if it was clipped in before you grabbed it to end the spiral this theory holds no water. So the real question is, was the brake flailing just before you grabbed it or did you pull it from its stowed position?
@Anthon Walters I don't have a concrete answer to that question unfortunately. However one thing I would like to note, since you (correctly) pointed out my tendency to look at the magnets before stowing my brakes. I also have a tendency to not really use my "brakes" to turn for the most part. If you watch my turn previously going back into wind I pull across my chest mostly in order to engage tip steer for almost any turn I do all the time. I only really ever use the brakes exclusively foot dragging or landing. 99% of the rest of the time I use a majority tip steering to make turns. And I should be able to use tip steering in that configuration. Now there is no separate tip toggle so it always puts a little pressure on brakes I think. But I don't know if even taking slack out of the brake line and just applying light pressure to a brake but not really deforming it much would cause a collapse.
I read the manual and doesn’t Ozone recommend against flying past the red line if you have a speedbar engaged?
Not from what I read, it says maximum speed is achieved at the red line with speedbar active and brakes shouldn't be used past that red line, but it says speedbar can be used at any point in the trim range.
how 'bout losing the phone?
Ozone wings manual specifically warn against applying brakes while using speedbar. Recommend you use the C-riser instead because too much brake will cause a collapse while using the speedbar. I can't tell in the video, but it looks like you pulled right brake while on speedbar. In slow-mo, your feet are up and you have right brake pulled...plus the speedbar is asymmetric making the problem worse. I think your collapse may be the result of not understanding the specifics of the wing. Based on your comments, I don't think you usually fly Ozone wings and have not learned the manufacturer's recommendations, especially the part on speedbar use. Different wings behave differently and jumping on an unfamilier wing with zero training, research, or browsing the manual and doing advanced things is asking for trouble.
In no way was this a failure of the wing. This was the result of operating the wing outside the manufacturer's recommendations.
Dude, nice video, and thanks for the share !
In my opinion, you were taking too many risks : look at the sky : it's smoking ! ... You can expect strong thermals and turbulence at anytime with tis weather !
And you were flying low (I would say less than 1000 feet), you were flying accelerated, un-trimmed... and with your pone in your left hand, and your right hand out of the toggle ... what could possibly go wrong ? ;)
The wing is NOT dangerous... you were taking some risks, and you had a great reaction !
No I don't necessarily think the wing is dangerous even though my clickbait title would suggest that. The weather wasn't ideal, I said as much, and the risks I was taking I didn't fully appreciate at the time. I've flown other wings in similar situations doing similar things and had no issue with it but every situation and wing is different. I have made some adjustments to my flying and decision making based on this incident!
Even the expression "hold my phone/beer ... " doesnt apply here. Staying cool as a cucumber with that collapse!
Wow glad everything went well and you landed safely. Hate that I missed you at Bad Apples.
Thanks man. Ya a lot of people were there!!! Hard to find people out there hahaha
Thank for share, keep yourself alive, and when we get calm even close call you need to know your reaction.
Trimmers un even lack of control and asimetric on full bar and spicey conditions. And a bell end messing about at low altitudes with his phone 🤣🤣 glad you didn’t hard spiral in to the ground
Is it possible your speed bar was pulling past the pulleys . Did you check the length before pushing ?
I’ve had something similar but worse ( got twisted in the lines happen to me . Same sit pushing speed bar while trimmed out but this wing wasn’t designed for that but instructor said it was . Anyway scary stuff
This was a demo wing and I promptly returned it when I landed. I'm not sure but I think it went out for more demos after I flew it so I don't think it had any issue at all but don't really know!
If you never read the wing manual how did you know it was okay to fly on speedbar at various trim positions ?
Best you do an SIV course
I did read the manual. And the manual says I can.... also, not saying its impossible, but I've seen a lot of wings that's say don't use speedbar fully trimmed in but I've never seen a wing that said don't use speedbar trimmed out.... and I have plans to, but an SIV isn't an end all be all you will now never have any issue ever again and you will react perfectly to every issue you come across....
The Ozone Viper 5 is an advanced, *non-certified glider. Not meant for beginner, nor even intermediate pilots. Not sure I agree that the manual says you can do several of the things demonstrated in this video. It does however mention what could happen if you do. From the Viper 5 manual: Pg 6, Trimmers, “The double red stitch lines indicate the maximum limit where it is safe to use the brakes for directional control without reducing the inherent stability of the profile. When flying faster than the red line, whether by further releasing the trimmers or applying additional speed bar, do not use the brakes, instead use the tip steering system for directional control.” There are several other places where this warning is stated. It was also mentioned that the air was choppy, several times prior to the collapse. Use of extended trims would seem unsafe in those conditions, and speedbar was added as well.
I’m glad to hear you are OK, but from the video it appears that the collapse was violent enough that you were incapable of input. That allowed the glider to correct itself and save your life!
@Brian Garceau it was far more violent than I anticipated it would be. Genuinely took me by surprise and with how violent it was there was definitely no quick action I could have taken before I did really. Wing did indeed recover itself. The thing that gets me though, is why does ozone have a "dedicated XC wing" with no dedicated tip steering toggles. Seems like a miss on that particular point to me. 🤷♂️
But you know there is a manual specifically for the Viper XC right? The manual is a bit different for the XC vs the Viper 5
@@JustOutHereTinkering I was not aware of the two models of the Viper. The Viper XC manual contains the same language however, but on page 5. Regarding the ‘dedicated’ tip steering, I suppose one could untie the factory 2d on the Viper XC and add separate toggle handles. But having that already integrated on this advanced glider would make sense.
@Brian Garceau yes the language is similar, just some details with lines and some minor specifics are different.
And I wouldn't want to untie the tip steering, I would want something similar to the Nucleon and many other wings, where you have a 2d tie in with an additional and separate tip steer toggle so when you're trimmed out you can activate only the tips.
Those DGAC "ratings" are amazing! Lol pretty standard reflex deflation
Are you aware of what the DGAC rating is??? It has nothing to do with deflations, collapses, recovery from collapses, or the wings ability to resist collapsing. its essentially a basic flight and "weight stress test" to ensure the wing holds up to the forces safely without tearing in half or breaking lines and flies according to the way the manufacturer states it will in the manual.... Thats what it boils down to, so not really applicable in this particular case.
@JustOutHereTinkering , I understand. It's garbage. There is a reason reflex gliders can't get an EN rating. They are super stable until they're not.
@brianclark2669 it's not garbage it's just a different rating. Some reflex gliders do have EN ratings. And there are reasons other than "they can't pass" why some reflex wings can't get an EN rating. But it sounds like you've got your mind made up so that's alright mate. Fly what makes you happy. Just don't wholeheartedly buy into one man's opinion of how everything except what he sells will kill you. It's a bit short sided as many have discovered.
No, i dont own a Dominator. Lol I have some sketchy wings with no EN ratings I fly conservatively, and I'm very aware of what im flying. I have some safe ones too with EN ratings. I understand there's some begginer wings with some reflex built in that can pass EN tests. Cool, but most are sketchy. There's a reason many SIV coaches won't even let you do a course on a reflex glider. How comfortable are you on your other reflex gliders with large deflations? Or haven't had any? I'll fly reflex in smooth air but soon as it gets bumpy at all I'm good on that. I think there's a lot of confirmation bias with reflex. Pilots thinking it's very stable and hasn't deflated before so it can't.
@brianclark2669 I'm not under the impression it can't deflate because I know it can. And by all means every glider is going to react differently. Ive been thrown around so hard on a Gin Carve I wanted on the ground immediately. It got so bad it was throwing me up, then to the side putting a wingtip just below the horizon, dropping me. I mean it was bad and that wing trucked on and kept me safe. I trust it with my life (obviously as I fly it lol) but not every wing is created equal and a lesser wing might have given up the ghost on me. I haven't taken any collapses quite like the one you saw here, this was the worst. Hope never to again
Looking at your vid there are a number of Met factors that I can see which may have been a big factor for the collapse, the cloud cover being puffy lumps of cloud indicate & tell me there are thermic conditions present on that day, the ground your flying over, and where you are in relation to the land mass, in that being a plowed field (hot ground) and right beside a large grass field (cool ground) both giving off totally different Met conditions next to each other, a line of trees between two plowed fields (a wall of turbulence) mixed with heated fields, (a rising air mass) you say there was some wind on that day (another turbulence factor) time of the day, and month of the year contribute to the Met conditions present etc lots to learn from this .. cheers and safe flights
You are far more observant of the surroundings and the conditions than I am, seeing all these things. That tells me I have some things to learn! You be safe too my friend.
Seems at the time of your collapse you were not on full speedbar. Do you think if you were still heavily loaded on full speedbar that could have prevented the collapse. I've flown in gnarly conditions full trim out and on full speed bar on my Dudek Driftair 22 and was able to fly through rougher air than what you are showing here. When full reflex is used the rigid leading edge is very difficult to collapse when rising air turbulence hits the wing. I can't say how turbulence coming down onto the wing from above might affect it, but I'd guess that's gonna be easier to collapse because a downward push + plus gravity seems like a combo punch!
Yes i was barely starting to apply speedbar. I don't know if being fully on the speedbar already would have made it better. There's a chance I pulled a small amount of brake but the brake pressures are heavy. There are 2 things I know about Ozone wings.. Heavy brake pressures and they lean towards better collapse recovery as opposed to collapse resistance. With heavy brake pressures I know I didn't pull brake "hard or far" but might have put some pressure on it. As for the recovery, the wing recovered well considering the circumstances i think but I'd have preferred not taking the collapse in the first place.
Too if you read the manual you arent suppose to go past the green line and get on speed bar. You dont gain anymore speed dumping the trimmers past the green line just more dangerous as you found out. Read the manual it's in the writing not the pictures. It states you will gain 0 extra speed with the trimmer past green and on speedbar without speedbar past green will speed you up with speedbar it doesnt make it faster just more unsafe.
The manual says max speed is achieved at the green line but it says the speed system is accessible in all trim configurations. Judson used speedbar fully trimmed out too so go complain to him 🤷♂️
The manual says you can use the full range of bar with trims in the fully SLOW position. It says they dont recommend bar when trimmers released beyond RED line. Judson had both hands off his brakes. I think you pulled a cunt hair of right brake as you started applying bar. Since thats the side that collapsed as you were pressing the bar out. Im gonna buy a 20m I think. Watch the aviator video of dude collapsing at like 10 ft. Same thing he used some brake on accident while pressing bar. I think its just so sensitive to any brake input at that point and i would say judson got lucky just for the fact he was completely hands off. Not trying to blame you or you skills. We all hate to admit it but 99% of stuff is pilot error oppossed to equipment and seeing your the 2nd guy to take a collapse on that wing doing basically the same thing as the guy who crashed.
Culmination of complacency and lack of focus. Not uncommon or anything new. Glad the wing didnt punish you too much. Thanks for the vid.
Didn't you just start flying ppg? I'm surprised Aviator let you demo this wing? This is an en-D? You need to slow down and build air time before you get on an expert level wing... glad you survived and thanks for sharing this video.
Just started is a relative term. I've had a "quick progression" but I've been flying over a year, have over 100 hrs in the air, and I've flown and own hotter wings than this wing. Some folks fly a mojo for 5 years and some are moving on to Warps and Freerides in 1 year. Everyone is different.
I think you must have had right brake applied and just lost it thinking you didn't. Brakes applied is the only answer.
Seems to me that the bad decision was test piloting a hot wing in iffy weather. Spicy wing or spicy weather but not both. Sure glad your OK. Dumped some of your luck bucket into your experience bucket. Maybe not much left in the former!
I'm not a paramotorist although I'm hoping to train this summer.
One thing I'd question could you have had the phone fixed to some sort of lap flight desk instead of holding it in your hand?
It would have been interesting if someone had captured the collapse filming from the ground.
Thanks for posting, I'm glad you didn't suffer any real harm just a very scary fright.
Yep, could have had it in a pouch or something like a chest mount but I rarely use my phone in flight so it's not something I generally use....
Multiple things here... your left trimmer is not out as far as your right trimmer fully out... I noticed you kept turning pulling full brake while trimmed out... you hit bar and you were pulling right brake some abd your trimmers wouldn't set equally...
First step, stop holding a phone in your hand all the time.
Did you actually watch the video?
@@JustOutHereTinkering Yes. Mount the phone.
@Thomas Carrington if you watched then you would know I am not thrilled with the fact it was in my hand and I don't plan on doing that again. So thanks for reiterating. But I kept that thing in my hand through all of that. Deserves some points lol
Wow glad you are ok. I have often wondered to myself what I would do if I took a collapse trimmed out and on speedbar. I kinda excepted the fact that I was gonna try to let it catch itself but I was gonna apply brakes because you try whatever you can yo recover
Yes very scary situation, and best thing you can do (according to advice I've received) is to go hands up and let the wing reinflate. Try to trim in if you can but that's not possible when you're getting thrown around like crazy!
Depends on which GoPro you have you are able to pull up on your GoPro your speed, altitude and G force.
This is available on my gopro however you have to turn the gopro on, connect to satellites, and then start recording. If you hit record to turn the camera on, that feature won't come up...
as others stated - sure looks like brakes were used while trimmed out and with bar which is not advised. You stated that you had one brake in your right hand and your phone in the other. If that is the case, it wasn't "the wing trying to kill you" it was you. Maybe consider renaming the video.
Maximum speed is achieved with trimmers set to green line and accelerator system used.
Read the manual properly mate..... I sent you a highlighted section for your reading pleasure.
Never thought to use my foot for tiller steering 😉
I’m going to have to up my bro-bra to fly at one of the events. The amount of “Nars” I hear watching paramotor videos…few..😂
I fly 2 liners XC and then I’m hands off the breaks I know I’m taking xtra risk. Good job having altitude when hands off or it would truly be a crash video
At @10:51 you can see your right hand to about your ears into the brakes, look at the reflection on the phone. hand in the brake toggle and pulling down pretty hard.
Glad you were high enough. I don't fly reflex and never will. Never saw any advantage to overly complicated risers and tip steering. Simple non reflex wings are much safer. Why take unnecessary risk?
Non-reflex gliders aren't immune to collapse obviously so they arent without any risk. And arguably they are more prone to collapse but recover better. Idk I don't think I've flown a Non-reflex glider if I'm honest so I'm not an expert on them by any means... everyone has their thing though. Some people would watch Mitch G flying speedbar 2ft off the ground and poop themselves lol. Different strokes!
looks to me that you were still in a right turn(look at your feet against the ground) and 10ish seconds before you can see that you were turning using the brake, all Ozone wings I know of you shouldn't be using brake fully trimmed out and especially not using speed bar. glad everything worked out and you were uninjured, safe flights my friend..
Even though in my head I don't think I was still pulling any pressure on the brake, I can't rule it out. One thing I noticed is although in 1 instance I pulled way across my chest to engage tip in the last turn it doesn't seem like I really did that. I will be sure to not make that mistake again.
@@JustOutHereTinkering fly safe..
Interesting that one trimmer on the (left side) is pull in and set at about 1/2 speed, while the other side (right side) is fully open full speed, and is pushing speed bar on (A risers pulled down) when the wing collapsed and over a plowed field with sunshine & clouds (so possibly thermic conditions) pilot error is a big plus in this incident, not really anything to do with the wing (set in that configuration) go & learn about wings and how they work may be a good call
I wouldn't exactly say that's half speed. The right is 100% let out and the left is like 90%... thermals were relatively low because weather had been cloudy and drizzly all morning. Gusty winds were kind of a factor though. Idk why the trimmer didn't fully release and my bad for not noticing. I regularly fly with left trimmer slower than right to correct some torque and that's not necessarily a problem but on speedbar it might be worse idk....
Don't know how studying wings would help here though...
@@JustOutHereTinkering different wings fly quite different in the way they are setup , and not all wings are suited to PPG vs PG, therefore knowing what the wing is designed for is paramount to safety, each design of wing behaves in the way it was designed and manufactures do put out good info about each model because of these differences in flight mode, so learning about each model is up to the pilot before flying and jumping in on a demo can be a killer if one hasn't taken the time to really know what a wing can & can not do without prior knowledge etc be safe and go learn a heap about the wings you choose to fly, and fly that wing a lot before jumping to fast into a high performance wing with limited experience
@Brent G. Cameron I generally don't fly wings I don't know anything about. But I certainly agree that all wings fly differently, and manuals for wings can be a very valuable tool! Definitely best to know the Do's and Dont's before flying a new wing...
Where is bad apple located ?
Andersonville Georgia
*improperly uses device*
*blames device*
I see why you only have 400 subs
Comments acting like he watched video
Doesn't actually watch video
I can see why you have none...
What watch do you use?
Garmin Foretrex 601
Why did you forget your watch?????
Left it sitting on my desk 🤷♂️ hahaha
Wow glad you are okay, it’s never confidence inspiring to take a collapse like that and not know what caused it… I’d be curious to know if the brake lines were altered/shortened and the brakes were deflecting while trimmed out on bar and have someone check for brake deflection while trimming out and going into bar.
In theory the wing should be more stable and collapse resistant while on bar than off so if it was a gust that caused it then it definitely would have collapsed while off bar and trimmed in (just recover better).
Also I cannot imagine one trimmer being slightly off from the other would cause a collapse and if it is then IMO that’s a death trap and that’s not a wing I would ever want to fly! I’ll steer my glider with my speed bar by raising one foot or the other and never had a issue collapsing a wing that way.
Well, according to the manual it says font shorten the brake toggles. I don't imagine Aviator would have shortened them, and I didn't see any indication of that but one thing I can tell you is Ozone says not to use speedbar in any bumpy turbulent air or at low altitudes.
@Scott dont know about the viper xc but its absolutely not true for all reflex gliders that its most collapse resistant at full speed
@@JustOutHereTinkering Yea I mean they all basically say that for liability reasons 😅. It’s a demo correct? I kept pausing the video when you turned to your risers. I own a Ozone speedster with a similar bungee connected to the brake line that allows for more free play in the brakes when fully accelerate.
I have not flown that wing yet but I can say that bungee in relation to my speedster sure does look elevated indicating to me the brake lines are getting taut.
If that’s a demo I’d be sure to have someone at aviator check the brake length before letting someone else demo it.
@@SMarti018 it was indeed a demo
Brakes on that particular wing are at factory length
If you want to go fast, get an airplane. Paragliding is for slow flying. I think you are idiotic for trying to fly at the speed limit of a piece of cloth holding you up. If you had been at 800 ft, you'd be dead.
This is not paragliding..... and your argument is simply crap any way you look at it... that's a really dumb suggestion, thanks.
Scary...
4000 fpm descent! Epic 😮
Efficiency test? DO you have any clue what you are talking about?
I said i would like to do an efficiency test. But I didn't do one.....
@@JustOutHereTinkering SO for my own edification, how exactly does one conduct an "efficiency test"? and what metrics are you measuring and against WHAT? and... is it a pass fail thing or is there a percentage of another wing that is considered the benchmark? I mean like 73.4% of a boomerang 11? I assume you use some super scientific, highly repeatable, single variable, mean statistical analysis?
@Yankee Paramotor idk why you are being so hostile, never said a cross word to you. No need to be rude man... they are done to the best of my ability, flying straight and level and measuring the rpm of the motor, compared to the speed traveled doing it both trimmed in and out and then I have a collection of different wings that I have all these numbers on. They can be compared. If I'm flying at 30mph trimmed in on 2 different wings and one is taking 5600rpm to fly straight and level and the other only takes 5200rpm then that wing is more efficient in that configuration...
I've also got climb rate tests which do give some insight into that. I tried glide slope tests but they just weren't consistent enough to be worth anything.
@@JustOutHereTinkering OK, so there is at least some method to your madness... However, I often hear that term "efficiency" thrown around, or... "that wing is SO...efficient" and I say BS. There are way too many variables for your collection of numbers to be significantly meaningful. What? Do you plan to publish the "End all guide to PPG wing efficiency"? A New York Times best seller that will be the reference standard for years to come?
There's really no need to measure these things anyhow. A low drag wing will will burn less fuel and require fewer RPMs to stay aloft, than a high drag wing. On the other hand, the same wing flown at a high wing loading vs. a low wing loading will require two different amounts of thrust and therefore fuel burn for the same distance flown or altitude attained, will be more for carrying more weight.
Why am I being hostile? Because you are throwing terms on subjects around as if you are an authority on those subjects. I am convinced that your analysis of your own collapse at Hodges field is entirely wrong. You were quite fortunate not to have become a statistic. FYI several posts about your channel have been made (FB forum), where other tenured PPGers commented that your seeming know it all attitude about flying, is bad juju. They've warned others NOT to take your advice.
I too was "self trained", but I brought a wealth of aviation experience to the table FIRST. I have forgotten more aerodynamic principles than are taught in most PPG classes... but I'm not here to blown my own horn.
Instead, I'm in the camp of never wanting to see another injury nor fatality of a fellow PPG lover getting hurt or killed. That will make me "unpopular"going forward, but I'm OK with that. I've had enough of passively thinking "It's none of my business" only to regret not speaking up and in a few cases, really regret not speaking up loud and harshly. It has happened several times. Fiends, and fringe acquaintances to me, hurt injured & even killed because I KEPT MY MOUTH SHUT when I SHOULD HAVE SPOKEN UP. The choices you make in this entire video could fill an entire 8 hour recurrent class on "what not to do" in PPG decision making. Your loaner glider didn't try to kill you. Your decision processes did...
Was this the 20?
18m
Nephilim hole on the left at 3:45.
You used the speedbar with the trimmers out, completely pilot error there, have you never used a performance wing before?
READ THE MANUAL! It takes 5 mins.
I can’t tell if you are trolling or not but yes you absolutely can use speed bar with trimmers out. Maybe you mean using brakes while trimmed out on bar?
@Scott Martin dude also emailed me saying you can't use speedbar trimmed out. Of course if he could read he would find out otherwise. You are absolutely right with brakes though. Can not use brakes past red line, or when speedbar is active.
Honestly, you shouldn’t use brakes at all on speed bar not even a little bit.
Tip-steer only
@I Really Do It that's what I do. I don't touch brakes when I'm on speedbar, ever... If I'm trimmed out I'll use the toggles but pull across my chest to engage tip steering primarily, but I dont use any brake at all on speedbar.
Manual warns says that maximum speed is achieved with the trimmers at the green line and the accelerator deployed.
You do you our kid but to me that’s pretty clear, to be fully trimmed out on one side, 3/4 trimmed out on the other and fully accelerated is going to collapse your wing.
Add to this your brake activity, go figure.
Sorry you don’t like the analysis, perhaps don’t ask if anyone can tell why it happened, pilot error, simple.
24:06 😅
Moore handy😂
So the title goes this wing tried to kill me yet when shit goes wrong all you say is bad idea, bad idea, bad idea??? I believe we know who's at fault here. Thumbs down
4000 fpm descent! Epic 😮