@@cmccbuilds8229 I'm looking forward to seeing the vids of folks running it! A few differences in the Gauntlet I made compared to this one: - It's level 10. - Has a greater focus on fewer, individually stronger monsters rather than hordes of little ones. - Has a bit more focus on the Exploration pillar, in addition to just combat. Players can actually choose their route through the dungeon and have to accomplish objectives. Includes things like dynamic lighting, traps, and the like. - No sidekicks. It's designed for 3 full PCs! - Players can choose their magic items from a whitelist, rather than using pre-selected ones.
I can't help but chuckle that the only successful gauntlet runs have been straight-class Warlock & Monk. Feels like great validation for someone who's long said that the short-rest classes are severely underrated.
I think dropping prone on a wall would look like the classic spy movie sneaking-next-to-a-wall-then-comically-plaster-yourself-against-it-to-avoid-being-spotted move
The one thing I will note is that the mage sidekick seemed...quite a bit better than other sidekicks we've seen in this series. The mage having the level 10 evoker ability along with a bunch of damage spells meant that the mage was dishing out the damage compared to like...15 damage from the expert. And I think the mage may have also rolled high on top of that. I seem to remember a 40 damage fireball, and a 33 damage toll the dead, which...even accounting for the +INT to damage those are good rolls. Actually, I guess the other thing worth noting is that for a level 14 one-shot specifically, Monks are fine cause the Monk level 14 ability is good. The main complaint is how late that ability comes.
Giving a Monk a Musket definitely seems to help! This really shows the power that comes from the class when they don’t have to spend their limited resources for damage output as often. Ranged monks are best monks!
I normally don’t enjoy playing a Monk, but I think that is because I haven’t really played one at a higher level than 4. 5th level is where the class can potentially start feeling more fun, and TCE really helped with their optional features.
I’m surprised that he got through it all but, at the same time I’m not…great piloting skills and great knowledge of the capabilities of his character…yeah, it matters.
I can’t describe the overwhelming sense of pure joy and excitement that overcame me at the sight of the thumbnail. I’ve been waiting a month for this. As someone who has recently gotten very interested in optimization, I’ve been obsessed with this series and have already learned a lot from the various talented guests you have had.
this is the season finale i never knew i needed on a gaming note, i think a big reason some groups think monk is weak is because you don't see them reach past midgame often, nor are short rests utilized enough to make use of all the potential ki; 14 points isn't a lot for 5-6 encounters like this, but make that 42 and suddenly it's a different ballpark
Very impressive both in terms of the build and Ludic's strategy. I have to say though that, for me, this series has really highlighted just how much impact luck has in this game, with just a few poor rolls early having outsized impact on the outcomes, particularly across longer or multiple combats.
Oh my. Kudos is due! I think before part 1 the whole community laughed at a solo class monk run. But after part 1 at least myself i thought... this is doable. But man that mindflayer got 1 turn... literally 1 turn and then stunning strike was clutch (ironically). I am super impressed to say the least and honestly wanting to play a gunk haha😊
Was a bit surprised to see that skipped over. It's a good example of how nice it is to be immune to poison (as almost all of the Assassin's damage is Poison) and Dex saves (for the Winter Wolf's breath weapon). Which meant that all I had to do to negate virtually all of the encounter's damage was stick the Monk in the doorway and keep my allies out of reach.
@@LudicSavantEdit, yes, I was wrong. -still, I heard wrong --17:35-- Monk with Evesion succeeded the save for no dmg but somehow took half dmg 😂- It was Con Save.
Ludic is a master of this game! Incredible job strategizing for this gauntlet. I'm in disbelief that a freaking, full Monk beat the gauntlet at all. Spectacular! Imagining this Gunk in a full party must be a DM's nightmare
3:53 I totally imagine dropping prone on the wall is like when Toby McGuire's Spiderman lays with his back flat against the wall/ceiling a lot in the movies. Great vid!
Awesome run, I have to admit I was a doubter but after that 1st room domination, I thought "Wow, he may just do the damn thing." Gotta say Gunks are very good, Ludic's tactics were incredible, and even the lowly side kicks shined (the expert did useful things a plenty, and those fireballs tho!). The Monk base class still leaves alot to be desired though. I have been waiting for this, and it did not disappoint, thanks. Let's go for another season of the Gauntlet!
Yeah, Monk base class still needs work, especially at lower levels. For all that a level 14 Mercy Monk actually has pretty good resources and defenses for a martial (having finally built up enough effective "situational" defenses that they're not really situational anymore, and Flurry of Healing providing a considerable healing battery), many of the Monk's features (especially their defensive features) are backloaded, and they are currently better suited for ranged than melee. Also, the balance between Monk subclasses is very uneven, with options like the Drunken Master offering very little (which pains my heart as a Jackie Chan fan). I feel like the Expert sidekick was barely more than a warm body (I would have rather picked the orc sidekick if I had a choice), but even as a mere Half-Caster the mage sidekick is quite handy when used well, as casters in general tend to be. Also goes to show how valuable that +5 damage to a single spell roll from Evoker is, even if it's being used on the low level slots of a half-caster. Though one thing I will give the Expert: It's relatively easy to keep them out of trouble (thanks to their high stealth and Cunning Action), so I didn't have to worry about protecting them as much as I did the Mage. Looking forward to the next season! Folks have been making their own Gauntlet trials in the discord, following the framework / guidelines Radical Taoist made. Submitted one myself! It'll be fun to see people trying those out =)
Melee in general should always be a last resort. The game mechanics just don't promote the risk-rreward for it (optimally speaking). Would love to see a play by play analysis of this run at the gauntlet similar to what treantmonk and Bilbron have done. I feel so many of us learn how to become better players from that and the gauntlet in general.
Part of it is the general 'ranged vs melee' issues of 5e, but another is that Monks are, in many ways, built liked a ranged class. - They aren't particularly good at Athletics checks. - Their AC is about on par for an archer, but embarrassing for a melee character (unless you just totally lucked out on attribute rolls). Their HP is also poor for a melee character, not merely because of their d8 HD but also their MADness and relative lack of features that absorb melee attacks. - Their best defense against big melee brutes is using their mobility to simply not be there. - And most of their other defensive features (like Deflect Missiles and Evasion) are very effective against enemy **ranged** options, rather than melee. - They don't do things like, say, create an aura of nastiness just for being near them (like melee Clerics, for instance). - And what's their best damage feats? That would be Gunner and Sharpshooter, ranged feats. Sure, they get some melee-based attacks and abilities like Stunning Strike, but since they eat ki you only need to use them opportunistically, and you've got the mobility to flex to melee range when you need to stun a mind flayer or solar or something, while playing predominantly ranged.
This an Amazing showcase of tactics and the power of ranged weapons! i love how a wizard and a paladin(two of the classes the comunity thinks are the most powerful) failed to clear the gauntlet but a monk(with a smart player controling it) won without losing a single ally
I think it does also go to showcase what a difference having a ranged focused party does compared to the barbarian that always wants to melee. Melee is not optimal in the game and it forces your party to: heal you specifically, and not contribute damage/control on their turn; all cuz they need to bail you out. This also showcases how power attack needs to come back for OneDND. It buffs martials alot and is actually promotes good tactical gameplay on knowing when NOT to use it.
@@DeadpoolAli To be honest I would like it better if the weapon mastery system was a bit more complex and weapon damage was higher(much higher for melee)
Monks have never been as bad as folks make out - though definitely harder to play well than most if not every other martial focused class/subclass, so a less masterful player will struggle. Also they don't fare well in theatre of the mind style games as that mobility that is their best feature gets too easily abstracted away without the battle map. It is however worth remembering its all situational and a few bad/good rolls can really snowball - this particular gauntlet did not have fast powerful melee opponents that will easily get in range of the distant attacker, or high damage ranged attackers of their own (at least not with those damage rolls, the terrain and surprise round). Making it a good showcase for a mobile ranged assassin squad that doesn't hit any run of bad luck - but if for instance they had failed their initial stealth checks so don't get to a good position to start the combat it could easily have gone the other way. A party so reliant on mobility and stealth would however much more easily get slaughtered in a more labyrinthian style encounter - all tight and twisty and nowhere to run once hostilities start, and almost no chance to actually get through stealthy. Which is where a Paladin/Barbarian that can block the path while taking and dealing the hits would very easily shine, and a magic user with the right spells prepared can work wonders.
@@cmccbuilds8229I mean the wizard got simulacrum which is practically double dpr/control. The biggest thing I've seen is defense positioning and utilizing range. Something everyone should write down in tactics 101.
You can replace the musket with any ranged weapon that's eligible for Dedicated Weapon, such as a shortbow or sling. In tier 3, you'll be doing at least 1d8 damage with whatever ranged damage you pick, so you don't have to be too picky. In fact, this makes some magic ranged weapons (like, say, the Two Birds Sling) unusually effective in a Monk's hands.
Heavy crossbows still have the Heavy property, which makes them largely incompatible with monks. Same problem with longbows, but at least those are given a specific exception for the Kensei - a Mercy monk like this would have to trade down to a light crossbow or shortbow, if they couldn't use a musket, and Crossbow Expert is slightly less appealing for monks for a couple of reasons. Muskets are uniquely positioned as a weapon with a high damage die, that can be accessed with a half-feat, that is perfectly compatible with monk class features.
without guns, you are essentially limited to shortbows or non heavy crossbows. Short bows work similar to a musket but with 3 less damage on average. crossbowa would require crossbow expert, at which point you might as well take the hand crossbow for ki-less Bonus attacks. still good though.
So is this a series finale? Or like a season finale? As a player and newer Dm Im not very good at tactics unless very basic. I do very much enjoy these runs as its kind of a learning tool. Hopefully its not done, done...dungeon.😅
I believe every gauntlet run ever (not just the ones featured here) has given the option for stealth/surprise for each combat. The maps are 10 min apart. There’s no reason not to allow it.
@@cmccbuilds8229then we should expect every player from now on to optimize for it. And it was my understanding the whole point of the Gauntlet was to test builds in intense, but realistic game situations. Any DM worth their spit knows that surprise trivializes most combats. Let alone surprise and the ability to lay traps and prep the battlefield. I’m glad that everyone had the same playing field for this gauntlet, but in the future I would recommend that some of the combats just don’t allow for surprise. And perhaps, that the monsters might get the drop on the players to emphasize the strengths of perception/wisdom based builds as well.
@@logancuster8035 I think you'll like the new (Season 2) Gauntlet dungeons -- they have better stuff for Team Monster to deal with stealth (and therefore, Surprise). Watched a few Pass Without Trace parties die in the Discord. And there's bits where the monsters try to ambush the players, as well, so Surprise cuts both ways! ^^
not allowing for surprise would completely hamstring all the optimized builds that optimize for....surprise. It would be an odd choice imo. I would urge DMs (generally, not just for this) to make surprise VERY difficult to achieve.
@@cmccbuilds8229 I guess we play at very different tables, because I see genuine opportunity for surprise show up like 20-25% of the time in actual play. I think having 1 or 2 combats where surprise isn’t reasonably, that is without extraordinary effort, achievable would just be a be a much more representative test of actual play.
The gunk is good, but it presupposes that firearms are availeable and magic firearms are availeable. You could probably achieve a similar result with crossbow, but not quite. But my main problem with the gunk is that it requires you to use a playstyle that is very different from the one that is prese ted in the core class description. Its basicly unavaileable to newer players. If played at face value so to say, the monk has all the problems that have been attributed to it. Its possible to work around, but that shouldnt be needed.
Pre-Tasha’s monks aren’t very good. And the monk class was (unintentionally) designed to be a ranged combatant with occasional melee bursts. Don’t use a crossbow. Use a short bow.
I always said monk wasn't underpowered. that said, I felt like the DM was playing more fairly than dm's in previous episodes, in which the minions all behaved like SAS
Sharpshooter did ALL the work here. With a bit of help from Focused Aim. Most of the Monk features were used less than 5 times throughout the entire run, with a grand total of ONE stunning strike 🤣 Without SS this run doesn't make it past the first encounter.
@@cmccbuilds8229 Focus Aim: 9x, Ki-Fueled Attack: 5x, Flurry of Blows: 3x, Hand of Harm: 5x (3 of which were FoB), Bonus Unarmed: 4x, Unarmed: 3, Stunning Strike: 2x, Slow Fall: 1x, Deflect: 1x, Patient Defense: 1x Step: 0x Even assuming I miscounted a bit and that this video wasn't exhaustive (KIA on Hydra and Assassin) that's still not a great look.
(…lists out 34 uses of abilities and says “not a great look”) You sure you don’t want to rethink your original point? You were off by a factor of nearly 7. Not included are all the monk abilities that are always on like unarmored defense, unamored movement, martial arts, dedicated weapon, extra attack etc. Not to mention the best monk ability (diamond soul) was incredibly underpowered because this particular gauntlet doesn’t feature a lot of saves.
@@cmccbuilds8229 I said MOST Monk features were used less than 5 times. As in each. IE each ability had less than 5 uses. Not that the Monk used less than 5 features in total. Unarmed Defense just replaces Armor (And doesn't do that very well). I counted only a few of uses of impactful Monk movement. Martial Arts only grants a bonus unarmed attack (which I counted) and the use of a d8 for unarmed strikes (which was also accounted for). Dedicated weapon is essentially just a weapon proficiency. Extra Attack isn't a Monk exclusive feature. Most martial classes can get Extra Attack, and even some casters (IE Warlock).
I dunno if that's because of the squished movement or not, but at 4:30, that Bonefire was extremely, extremely generous. So generous, in fact, that it's literally against the rules - a Medium-sized creature is affected by an AoE ONLY IF that AoE covers at least half of its square. A pixel from the AoE touching a pixel of the creature's space isn't enough for it to take damage. And here, it's just a clear example, but that has been done consistently in this gauntlet. Now, I don't wanna take away from the achievements of the people, since the performance was quite spectacular, but seeing such stretches of the rules kind of ruins it for me, at least a bit.
dmg 251: "choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect", which means that you can overlap a maximum of four 5' squares with a 5' cube If the AOE is circular (a square is not), then it must fill half the square to affect it.
I don't want to discredit Ludic's tactical play here, but this run leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It seems to me personally like a lot of choices have been made in DM tactics (not blaming them at all btw) as well as the party rules (spellcaster hard-carrying the first half of the run and remaining solid damage) that amplified the Gunk's strengths beyond - at least to me - reason when i compare it to the past gauntlet runs. The Flameskulls could have easily taken the spellcaster out of the fight entirely, and especially the priests displayed really poor positioning given the known ranged threat. Also quite some lucky rolls when it counted, especially the multiple surprise rounds despite not-amazing stealth and pre-surprise shenanigans like climbing a roof, as well as huge scale maps that leverage the natural advantage of ranged characters in this game (further amplifying the sidekick). That's just how the dice can roll of course, but i feel like if you take away 1-2 surprise rounds here this run would have ended far earlier. This Gunk proved itself to be a fantastic and fun build, and was played masterfully. But for the purpose of a raw power comparison to previous builds i can't help but consider this run insufficient.
I agree, this run feels like a tag team between the DM and the player. Can't help but compare this to treantmonk's run where the enemies were viscous maybe even to the point of metagaming
@plop0r Jon’s dm philosophy is described in the opening quote. In fact, that’s the DM philosophy for most gauntlet DMs. But everyone has their own unique style
Sorry buddy, but you're huffing copium. Even if the DM went slightly easier here.... this is a single class monk build with a self imposed "everybody lives" handicap. And it did very well. There were 2 prominent runs with fully optimized and multiclassed builds that couldn't get through this. I can understand why Treantmonk failed, since he wasn't aware how rests work. To say that this is insufficient when all the other attempts had a much easier objective and used stronger builds is dishonest.
AAAANNND the maps were shrunk, giving the non-mobile/non-ranged enemies a much better shot to catch the monk. On a map twice as wide, ludic could easily kite the enemies without ever getting close. But here sharlia and co engaged the enemy in melee quite a bit.
ב"ה The DM went easy on the first fight here, the veterans should have dashed toward the character and even go on the roof themselves rather than just shooting, The assassin should have definitly come with other creatures and never alone. the DM here is obviosly not well versed in keeping cover games. that victory was totally from misplay from the DM.
My take: The veterans could have dashed every single turn and still failed to get in even a single melee attack. They essentially had a choice between their ranged attacks, or no attacks at all. As for the Assassin, they basically can't damage Sharlia, as most of their damage comes from Poison (which they're immune to) and the winter wolf's breath (which can't get through Evasion + Diamond Mind + max Dex). It *might* have been able to put some damage on the changeling though, depending on positioning and approach. But it's not like I was short on healing resources (which is the main reason I took the Mercy Monk instead of a higher damage one like Kensei or Shadow).
@@cmccbuilds8229 Even more of an obstacle for them than the triple dash is that the Veterans can't beat the kenku's *minimum* stealth roll of 25. He can just peace out whenever he feels like it (and frankly, I wouldn't miss him =P). Only slightly more difficult to protect is the changeling mage, but the fact that their damage is entirely unnecessary to my strategy means that chasing them down is going to be easier said than done, since I can afford to spend some or all of their actions defensively if need be (such as dashing, disguising, etc). The most important thing in this matchup is that the veterans don't really have the tools to force a confrontation with someone who doesn't wanna be there, and Sharlia is *highly* resistant to their ranged attacks, and thus Sharlia can essentially solo all of them for virtually no resources. You could maybe do something like, say, have the vets lock themselves in a room and wait for me to come to them. But in that case, I can just shoot to destroy the doors or windows, OR I could put a Dodging character up front with a Create Bonfire at the checkpoint.
Is there still room in the Ludic fanboy squad?
Wait until you see the gauntlet Ludic designed!
@@cmccbuilds8229 Can't wait!
@@cmccbuilds8229Wooo! I'm eager for that!
@@cmccbuilds8229 I'm looking forward to seeing the vids of folks running it!
A few differences in the Gauntlet I made compared to this one:
- It's level 10.
- Has a greater focus on fewer, individually stronger monsters rather than hordes of little ones.
- Has a bit more focus on the Exploration pillar, in addition to just combat. Players can actually choose their route through the dungeon and have to accomplish objectives. Includes things like dynamic lighting, traps, and the like.
- No sidekicks. It's designed for 3 full PCs!
- Players can choose their magic items from a whitelist, rather than using pre-selected ones.
@@LudicSavant any news on a video or anything? would love to see a party level gauntlet like this
I can't help but chuckle that the only successful gauntlet runs have been straight-class Warlock & Monk. Feels like great validation for someone who's long said that the short-rest classes are severely underrated.
they're going to excel in a no long rest scenario
I think dropping prone on a wall would look like the classic spy movie sneaking-next-to-a-wall-then-comically-plaster-yourself-against-it-to-avoid-being-spotted move
Lol
That is how you do it! A straight monk and 2 crappy sidekicks felt... op?! What a masterful display!
The one thing I will note is that the mage sidekick seemed...quite a bit better than other sidekicks we've seen in this series. The mage having the level 10 evoker ability along with a bunch of damage spells meant that the mage was dishing out the damage compared to like...15 damage from the expert. And I think the mage may have also rolled high on top of that. I seem to remember a 40 damage fireball, and a 33 damage toll the dead, which...even accounting for the +INT to damage those are good rolls.
Actually, I guess the other thing worth noting is that for a level 14 one-shot specifically, Monks are fine cause the Monk level 14 ability is good. The main complaint is how late that ability comes.
@kaitlynburnell6992 what can I say? WotC hates martial ;) All the sidekicks are pretty basic sidekicks. Not optimized at all. Intentionally so.
I love that a Monk is a full victor of this Guantlet
Giving a Monk a Musket definitely seems to help! This really shows the power that comes from the class when they don’t have to spend their limited resources for damage output as often. Ranged monks are best monks!
Gunks are good!
I normally don’t enjoy playing a Monk, but I think that is because I haven’t really played one at a higher level than 4. 5th level is where the class can potentially start feeling more fun, and TCE really helped with their optional features.
@derekseaton4412 Tasha’s changed everything for the monk. Made them completely viable
Monks are bad. Gunks are good.
Not gonna lie, I did not expect this outcome. What a marvellous display of player skill/tactics. Couldn't think of a better finale to this series. 👏
I’m surprised that he got through it all but, at the same time I’m not…great piloting skills and great knowledge of the capabilities of his character…yeah, it matters.
I can’t describe the overwhelming sense of pure joy and excitement that overcame me at the sight of the thumbnail. I’ve been waiting a month for this. As someone who has recently gotten very interested in optimization, I’ve been obsessed with this series and have already learned a lot from the various talented guests you have had.
I’m trying to get some editing help to get videos out faster.
love that they used caltrops at this level
Focused Aim is easily one of the best Monk class features
Yeah I mentioned in part 1 how underrated it is. Especially if you can figure out (or guesstimate) enemy ACs
this is the season finale i never knew i needed
on a gaming note, i think a big reason some groups think monk is weak is because you don't see them reach past midgame often, nor are short rests utilized enough to make use of all the potential ki; 14 points isn't a lot for 5-6 encounters like this, but make that 42 and suddenly it's a different ballpark
who is fighting 42 encounters without a long rest?!
@@cmccbuilds8229they meant 42 Ki points over 5-6 encounters
@MatthewDragonHammer ahhh
@@cmccbuilds8229 you guys don't have 42 encounter days? 😢
I really think it’s the short rest concept. Balance was based on expecting groups to do them and groups just… don’t I’ve found often.
Very impressive both in terms of the build and Ludic's strategy. I have to say though that, for me, this series has really highlighted just how much impact luck has in this game, with just a few poor rolls early having outsized impact on the outcomes, particularly across longer or multiple combats.
Oh my. Kudos is due! I think before part 1 the whole community laughed at a solo class monk run. But after part 1 at least myself i thought... this is doable.
But man that mindflayer got 1 turn... literally 1 turn and then stunning strike was clutch (ironically).
I am super impressed to say the least and honestly wanting to play a gunk haha😊
Just perfect opportunity to pick your spot and Stunning strike FTW
The roaming assassin was dispatched with ease! XD
So quickly I didn’t even include the actual combat
Was a bit surprised to see that skipped over. It's a good example of how nice it is to be immune to poison (as almost all of the Assassin's damage is Poison) and Dex saves (for the Winter Wolf's breath weapon). Which meant that all I had to do to negate virtually all of the encounter's damage was stick the Monk in the doorway and keep my allies out of reach.
@@LudicSavantEdit, yes, I was wrong.
-still, I heard wrong --17:35-- Monk with Evesion succeeded the save for no dmg but somehow took half dmg 😂-
It was Con Save.
Cone of cold is a con save
this was amazing.
damn was this cinematic.
Also. They exit the area of the arcanist to find fire everywhere XD
Love how it ended with a double crit!
yeah when i saw that I couldn't believe it
Ludic is a master of this game! Incredible job strategizing for this gauntlet. I'm in disbelief that a freaking, full Monk beat the gauntlet at all. Spectacular! Imagining this Gunk in a full party must be a DM's nightmare
3:53 I totally imagine dropping prone on the wall is like when Toby McGuire's Spiderman lays with his back flat against the wall/ceiling a lot in the movies. Great vid!
Impressive!
It demands a skilled player to get the gunk through the gauntlet
Quite a performance.
So, you're telling me the monk did it. Ok, that was awesome and shocking
I was very much a doubter but this was incredibly well played!
Awesome run, I have to admit I was a doubter but after that 1st room domination, I thought "Wow, he may just do the damn thing." Gotta say Gunks are very good, Ludic's tactics were incredible, and even the lowly side kicks shined (the expert did useful things a plenty, and those fireballs tho!). The Monk base class still leaves alot to be desired though. I have been waiting for this, and it did not disappoint, thanks. Let's go for another season of the Gauntlet!
Yeah, Monk base class still needs work, especially at lower levels. For all that a level 14 Mercy Monk actually has pretty good resources and defenses for a martial (having finally built up enough effective "situational" defenses that they're not really situational anymore, and Flurry of Healing providing a considerable healing battery), many of the Monk's features (especially their defensive features) are backloaded, and they are currently better suited for ranged than melee. Also, the balance between Monk subclasses is very uneven, with options like the Drunken Master offering very little (which pains my heart as a Jackie Chan fan).
I feel like the Expert sidekick was barely more than a warm body (I would have rather picked the orc sidekick if I had a choice), but even as a mere Half-Caster the mage sidekick is quite handy when used well, as casters in general tend to be. Also goes to show how valuable that +5 damage to a single spell roll from Evoker is, even if it's being used on the low level slots of a half-caster. Though one thing I will give the Expert: It's relatively easy to keep them out of trouble (thanks to their high stealth and Cunning Action), so I didn't have to worry about protecting them as much as I did the Mage.
Looking forward to the next season! Folks have been making their own Gauntlet trials in the discord, following the framework / guidelines Radical Taoist made. Submitted one myself! It'll be fun to see people trying those out =)
Melee in general should always be a last resort. The game mechanics just don't promote the risk-rreward for it (optimally speaking).
Would love to see a play by play analysis of this run at the gauntlet similar to what treantmonk and Bilbron have done. I feel so many of us learn how to become better players from that and the gauntlet in general.
Part of it is the general 'ranged vs melee' issues of 5e, but another is that Monks are, in many ways, built liked a ranged class.
- They aren't particularly good at Athletics checks.
- Their AC is about on par for an archer, but embarrassing for a melee character (unless you just totally lucked out on attribute rolls). Their HP is also poor for a melee character, not merely because of their d8 HD but also their MADness and relative lack of features that absorb melee attacks.
- Their best defense against big melee brutes is using their mobility to simply not be there.
- And most of their other defensive features (like Deflect Missiles and Evasion) are very effective against enemy **ranged** options, rather than melee.
- They don't do things like, say, create an aura of nastiness just for being near them (like melee Clerics, for instance).
- And what's their best damage feats? That would be Gunner and Sharpshooter, ranged feats.
Sure, they get some melee-based attacks and abilities like Stunning Strike, but since they eat ki you only need to use them opportunistically, and you've got the mobility to flex to melee range when you need to stun a mind flayer or solar or something, while playing predominantly ranged.
What excellent tactics! Bravo! Ludic, you're a hero!
This is the outcome we were all rooting for. Amazing
3 cheers to CMCC Builds, my DnD UA-camr! The Gauntlet is brilliant!
absolutely insane. very well played
This an Amazing showcase of tactics and the power of ranged weapons!
i love how a wizard and a paladin(two of the classes the comunity thinks are the most powerful) failed to clear the gauntlet but a monk(with a smart player controling it) won without losing a single ally
I think it does also go to showcase what a difference having a ranged focused party does compared to the barbarian that always wants to melee. Melee is not optimal in the game and it forces your party to: heal you specifically, and not contribute damage/control on their turn; all cuz they need to bail you out.
This also showcases how power attack needs to come back for OneDND. It buffs martials alot and is actually promotes good tactical gameplay on knowing when NOT to use it.
Yes! Bring back power attack
@@DeadpoolAli To be honest I would like it better if the weapon mastery system was a bit more complex and weapon damage was higher(much higher for melee)
Monks have never been as bad as folks make out - though definitely harder to play well than most if not every other martial focused class/subclass, so a less masterful player will struggle. Also they don't fare well in theatre of the mind style games as that mobility that is their best feature gets too easily abstracted away without the battle map.
It is however worth remembering its all situational and a few bad/good rolls can really snowball - this particular gauntlet did not have fast powerful melee opponents that will easily get in range of the distant attacker, or high damage ranged attackers of their own (at least not with those damage rolls, the terrain and surprise round). Making it a good showcase for a mobile ranged assassin squad that doesn't hit any run of bad luck - but if for instance they had failed their initial stealth checks so don't get to a good position to start the combat it could easily have gone the other way.
A party so reliant on mobility and stealth would however much more easily get slaughtered in a more labyrinthian style encounter - all tight and twisty and nowhere to run once hostilities start, and almost no chance to actually get through stealthy. Which is where a Paladin/Barbarian that can block the path while taking and dealing the hits would very easily shine, and a magic user with the right spells prepared can work wonders.
Melee weapons should be able to dwarf cantrips
Can't tell you how badly I was waiting for this one... what a great end to the season.
Wow, just wow 😮
Power of Range.
Power of love.
@ninjasquirrels lol
Thanks! Another great gauntlet narration!
That was just amazing.
This was amazing. I've rarely been so happy about being proven wrong.
Holy shit that is wild. I can't believe a monk was the only one to beat the Gauntlet O_O
Well, Bilbron did it with a straight Daolock as well although there were some issues with rulings.
There was leniency on set up too
@@cmccbuilds8229I mean the wizard got simulacrum which is practically double dpr/control.
The biggest thing I've seen is defense positioning and utilizing range. Something everyone should write down in tactics 101.
I almost forgot about this
:|
Love your gauntlet videos
Holy mother of gunpowder. That was amazing.
Question about the Gunk. If your DM doesn't allow Firearms, can you replace the Musket with a Heavy Crossbow and the Crossbow Expert Feat?
You can replace the musket with any ranged weapon that's eligible for Dedicated Weapon, such as a shortbow or sling. In tier 3, you'll be doing at least 1d8 damage with whatever ranged damage you pick, so you don't have to be too picky. In fact, this makes some magic ranged weapons (like, say, the Two Birds Sling) unusually effective in a Monk's hands.
Sadly the heavy property makes this not work
Heavy crossbows still have the Heavy property, which makes them largely incompatible with monks. Same problem with longbows, but at least those are given a specific exception for the Kensei - a Mercy monk like this would have to trade down to a light crossbow or shortbow, if they couldn't use a musket, and Crossbow Expert is slightly less appealing for monks for a couple of reasons. Muskets are uniquely positioned as a weapon with a high damage die, that can be accessed with a half-feat, that is perfectly compatible with monk class features.
without guns, you are essentially limited to shortbows or non heavy crossbows. Short bows work similar to a musket but with 3 less damage on average. crossbowa would require crossbow expert, at which point you might as well take the hand crossbow for ki-less Bonus attacks. still good though.
The Artificer Repeating Shot Infusion would allow the Monk to use light crossbows like this...
That was incredibly clean, holy cow
Effing sweet!!!
Is it just me or did the sidekicks seem stronger in this gauntlet due to the impact of tactics and teamplay?
They were played extremely well,. but the main factor was the caster's AoE capabilities with Fireball and Create Bonfire.
@@NageIfarwe could def use some videos on create bonfire in the community. If not just for harder evidence to present to DMs.
So is this a series finale? Or like a season finale? As a player and newer Dm Im not very good at tactics unless very basic. I do very much enjoy these runs as its kind of a learning tool. Hopefully its not done, done...dungeon.😅
Season. This gauntlet is done. On to another one next.
@cmccbuilds8229 Oh, that's rad, I'm excited to see what the new season brings!
how satisfying to stun a mindflayer.
The Kenku Expert being called useless in Part 1, with his Double Crit roll on the BBEG at 1 HP, "And I took that personally."
Is Ammunition tracked?
This makes me think a ranger hunter subclass with volley might do really well. Especially if we give them a musket lol.
It doesn’t need to be tracked but if it was, you’d be allowed enough ammo that it wouldn’t matter.
Holy cow. Wow
I feel like the assasin should have showed up a little earlier
or later - they're kind of the only way to interrupt short rests unless you split the final level. Tough DM call
I forgot about them. I had intended to bring them in to help the veterans and priests.
@@jonathanhaynes9914 happens to the best of us
Surprise basically every fight feels like cheese.
What table, what DM, gives the option for surprise in every fight?
I believe every gauntlet run ever (not just the ones featured here) has given the option for stealth/surprise for each combat.
The maps are 10 min apart. There’s no reason not to allow it.
@@cmccbuilds8229then we should expect every player from now on to optimize for it. And it was my understanding the whole point of the Gauntlet was to test builds in intense, but realistic game situations.
Any DM worth their spit knows that surprise trivializes most combats. Let alone surprise and the ability to lay traps and prep the battlefield.
I’m glad that everyone had the same playing field for this gauntlet, but in the future I would recommend that some of the combats just don’t allow for surprise. And perhaps, that the monsters might get the drop on the players to emphasize the strengths of perception/wisdom based builds as well.
@@logancuster8035 I think you'll like the new (Season 2) Gauntlet dungeons -- they have better stuff for Team Monster to deal with stealth (and therefore, Surprise). Watched a few Pass Without Trace parties die in the Discord. And there's bits where the monsters try to ambush the players, as well, so Surprise cuts both ways! ^^
not allowing for surprise would completely hamstring all the optimized builds that optimize for....surprise. It would be an odd choice imo. I would urge DMs (generally, not just for this) to make surprise VERY difficult to achieve.
@@cmccbuilds8229 I guess we play at very different tables, because I see genuine opportunity for surprise show up like 20-25% of the time in actual play.
I think having 1 or 2 combats where surprise isn’t reasonably, that is without extraordinary effort, achievable would just be a be a much more representative test of actual play.
FUCK YES
The gunk is good, but it presupposes that firearms are availeable and magic firearms are availeable. You could probably achieve a similar result with crossbow, but not quite. But my main problem with the gunk is that it requires you to use a playstyle that is very different from the one that is prese ted in the core class description. Its basicly unavaileable to newer players.
If played at face value so to say, the monk has all the problems that have been attributed to it. Its possible to work around, but that shouldnt be needed.
Pre-Tasha’s monks aren’t very good. And the monk class was (unintentionally) designed to be a ranged combatant with occasional melee bursts.
Don’t use a crossbow. Use a short bow.
@@cmccbuilds8229 Or a sling!
Sick
What’s the combo for them to get so much damage in those magic missiles? That seems cool
They’re a nuke wizard - lite
Check out my nuke wizard build
@@cmccbuilds8229 thanks I didn’t realize the side kick was that build
@Commodore468 it’s not THAT build. It just has the same evoker ability. So the combo is explained there. Sidekick doesn’t multiclass or take feats.
@@Commodore468 spellcaster Sidekicks in general automatically get the same ability that level 11 Evokers do for boosting spell damage.
Entertaining but 1 month between parts of the same run is really too much. I literally forgot the channel even existed
Lol. That’s what the subscribe and notification button is for
@@cmccbuilds8229 sure, but after a whole month the hype has gone away
I was checking every week. I need my crack.
i would like to see the ciri build in the gauntlet
17:35 Monk lvl 7 Eveison on succesfull save take 0 dmg, on fail take half dmg?
Vs cone of cold? It’s a con save
@@cmccbuilds8229 makes so much more sense now, didn't realize cone of cold was con save, so used to Thunderwave and Burning Hand being Dex saves.
So with short rest, a Monk and Warlock party are OP?
Short rests classes are good??
I always said monk wasn't underpowered. that said, I felt like the DM was playing more fairly than dm's in previous episodes, in which the minions all behaved like SAS
Sharpshooter did ALL the work here. With a bit of help from Focused Aim. Most of the Monk features were used less than 5 times throughout the entire run, with a grand total of ONE stunning strike 🤣 Without SS this run doesn't make it past the first encounter.
5 times?! Count again
@@cmccbuilds8229 Focus Aim: 9x, Ki-Fueled Attack: 5x, Flurry of Blows: 3x, Hand of Harm: 5x (3 of which were FoB), Bonus Unarmed: 4x, Unarmed: 3, Stunning Strike: 2x, Slow Fall: 1x, Deflect: 1x, Patient Defense: 1x Step: 0x
Even assuming I miscounted a bit and that this video wasn't exhaustive (KIA on Hydra and Assassin) that's still not a great look.
(…lists out 34 uses of abilities and says “not a great look”)
You sure you don’t want to rethink your original point? You were off by a factor of nearly 7.
Not included are all the monk abilities that are always on like unarmored defense, unamored movement, martial arts, dedicated weapon, extra attack etc. Not to mention the best monk ability (diamond soul) was incredibly underpowered because this particular gauntlet doesn’t feature a lot of saves.
@@cmccbuilds8229 I said MOST Monk features were used less than 5 times. As in each. IE each ability had less than 5 uses. Not that the Monk used less than 5 features in total.
Unarmed Defense just replaces Armor (And doesn't do that very well). I counted only a few of uses of impactful Monk movement. Martial Arts only grants a bonus unarmed attack (which I counted) and the use of a d8 for unarmed strikes (which was also accounted for). Dedicated weapon is essentially just a weapon proficiency. Extra Attack isn't a Monk exclusive feature. Most martial classes can get Extra Attack, and even some casters (IE Warlock).
I dunno if that's because of the squished movement or not, but at 4:30, that Bonefire was extremely, extremely generous. So generous, in fact, that it's literally against the rules - a Medium-sized creature is affected by an AoE ONLY IF that AoE covers at least half of its square. A pixel from the AoE touching a pixel of the creature's space isn't enough for it to take damage. And here, it's just a clear example, but that has been done consistently in this gauntlet.
Now, I don't wanna take away from the achievements of the people, since the performance was quite spectacular, but seeing such stretches of the rules kind of ruins it for me, at least a bit.
These aren’t screenshots of the actual session, he’s recreating them in tabletop afterwards.
Not a map issue. Rules issue discussed in the last video. A 5 foot cube can hit up to 4 squares.
@@cmccbuilds8229Where in the rules does it say this?
Ye, this bonfire trick is my new go to when talking about rules and that on the internet even groups of people can be wrong.
dmg 251: "choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect", which means that you can overlap a maximum of four 5' squares with a 5' cube
If the AOE is circular (a square is not), then it must fill half the square to affect it.
I don't want to discredit Ludic's tactical play here, but this run leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
It seems to me personally like a lot of choices have been made in DM tactics (not blaming them at all btw) as well as the party rules (spellcaster hard-carrying the first half of the run and remaining solid damage) that amplified the Gunk's strengths beyond - at least to me - reason when i compare it to the past gauntlet runs.
The Flameskulls could have easily taken the spellcaster out of the fight entirely, and especially the priests displayed really poor positioning given the known ranged threat.
Also quite some lucky rolls when it counted, especially the multiple surprise rounds despite not-amazing stealth and pre-surprise shenanigans like climbing a roof, as well as huge scale maps that leverage the natural advantage of ranged characters in this game (further amplifying the sidekick).
That's just how the dice can roll of course, but i feel like if you take away 1-2 surprise rounds here this run would have ended far earlier.
This Gunk proved itself to be a fantastic and fun build, and was played masterfully.
But for the purpose of a raw power comparison to previous builds i can't help but consider this run insufficient.
Why do you think this party can’t stealth? 2/3 of the party are fantastic at stealth. And the spellcaster has a plus mod.
I agree, this run feels like a tag team between the DM and the player. Can't help but compare this to treantmonk's run where the enemies were viscous maybe even to the point of metagaming
@plop0r Jon’s dm philosophy is described in the opening quote. In fact, that’s the DM philosophy for most gauntlet DMs. But everyone has their own unique style
Sorry buddy, but you're huffing copium. Even if the DM went slightly easier here.... this is a single class monk build with a self imposed "everybody lives" handicap. And it did very well. There were 2 prominent runs with fully optimized and multiclassed builds that couldn't get through this. I can understand why Treantmonk failed, since he wasn't aware how rests work. To say that this is insufficient when all the other attempts had a much easier objective and used stronger builds is dishonest.
AAAANNND the maps were shrunk, giving the non-mobile/non-ranged enemies a much better shot to catch the monk.
On a map twice as wide, ludic could easily kite the enemies without ever getting close. But here sharlia and co engaged the enemy in melee quite a bit.
DM’ing feels inconsistent with treantmonks adversarial run and the other runs. That said strong prep play/innovations in this vs treantmonk blind run.
There was no adversarial run. Chris clarified that in the end.
ב"ה
The DM went easy on the first fight here, the veterans should have dashed toward the character and even go on the roof themselves rather than just shooting, The assassin should have definitly come with other creatures and never alone.
the DM here is obviosly not well versed in keeping cover games. that victory was totally from misplay from the DM.
They had exactly zero shot of entering melee with the monk, and a near zero chance of catching the kenku who can triple dash.
My take: The veterans could have dashed every single turn and still failed to get in even a single melee attack. They essentially had a choice between their ranged attacks, or no attacks at all.
As for the Assassin, they basically can't damage Sharlia, as most of their damage comes from Poison (which they're immune to) and the winter wolf's breath (which can't get through Evasion + Diamond Mind + max Dex). It *might* have been able to put some damage on the changeling though, depending on positioning and approach. But it's not like I was short on healing resources (which is the main reason I took the Mercy Monk instead of a higher damage one like Kensei or Shadow).
@@cmccbuilds8229 Even more of an obstacle for them than the triple dash is that the Veterans can't beat the kenku's *minimum* stealth roll of 25. He can just peace out whenever he feels like it (and frankly, I wouldn't miss him =P).
Only slightly more difficult to protect is the changeling mage, but the fact that their damage is entirely unnecessary to my strategy means that chasing them down is going to be easier said than done, since I can afford to spend some or all of their actions defensively if need be (such as dashing, disguising, etc).
The most important thing in this matchup is that the veterans don't really have the tools to force a confrontation with someone who doesn't wanna be there, and Sharlia is *highly* resistant to their ranged attacks, and thus Sharlia can essentially solo all of them for virtually no resources.
You could maybe do something like, say, have the vets lock themselves in a room and wait for me to come to them. But in that case, I can just shoot to destroy the doors or windows, OR I could put a Dodging character up front with a Create Bonfire at the checkpoint.
YES! I WAS DOUBTFUL WHEN I HEARD OF THIS FOR THE FIRST TIME BUT YES! THE MONK WON!